Orange Divided Spotlight

Remembrance Day is a significant date in the Orange Order Callander

and its members of paying tribute to those who died in war and

conflict. We are here Mac today to remember

the fallen and pay tribute to those who paid the ultimate truck - Max

sacrifice, Protestants, a Roman Catholics and those of any faith.

But the Orange Order pozmack historic views on Catholicism

continued debate. According to the brawls of the Orange Order, the

Orangemen must oppose the fatal - marked the doctrines of the romance

that -- the Roman Catholic Church. But when Monica became one of the

fallen, murdered by Republican dissidents, whose death caused

widespread revulsion and United the community. The G A A, of which he

was a member, and the police took turns carrying his coffin. The

funeral was attended by the First and Deputy First Ministers. Also

them acquire the Ulster Unionist leader Tom Eliot and his senior

call-up - my colleague Danny Kennedy. As Orangemen, they might

have been expected to stay away from a Catholic service but perhaps

as a sign of how modern Ireland has changed would put their desire to

one of Monica first. - Mark Blake puts their desire to on a Roman

curve. I do not think it is a sin to go to the funeral off somebody

who served in my constituency. Mac in Fermanagh, Tom Elliott

pozmack home county, clerical access book Women To was symbolic

of a new generation, looking to the future. He was a young man who held

on to his culture but could see the way Northern Ireland was heading

and he joins the PSNI and he was fingered for that. Despite the

shared grief of the funeral, which employs some Orangemen condemned

men Mac for attending the mass. The criticism was followed by official

complaints which meant they faced being thrown out of the Orange

Order. But tonight we can reveal that Sandy Row was not be on the

lodge to complain. Almost a dozen letters of concern were received.

We pray for the PSNI and all putting their lives at risk from

IMAX security. The Orange Order expressed its sympathy to the

family mac family. I repeat that According to its role, and orange

man cannot participate in an act of Roman worship. The reason for this

is a view the mass as blasphemous. In a recent article in the border

macro's newspaper, its grand chaplain called the mass a mockery

of common sense. And now we come to the lovely part of the Eucharist

were we offer our gift to God. They've become the body and blood

When the priest says the way for will become the actual flesh of

Christ, in that sense we do not believe as Protestants that that

happens in the service. I have no problem with the Orange Order

holding whatever beliefs they want to hold but applied to have a

problem with them at judging the central act of worship in my face.

And using awful words like blasphemous. It absolutely makes me

totally dead and sad inside, because I do not think that is

respectful, I do not think it is of this era. But not all Orangemen

take the view that they cannot attend the mass. Some believe that

as long as you do not participate there is no harm in being present

to pay respect. This is Tyrone MLA Ross Hussey, who also went to the

murdered men' funeral mass. -- man's. I went to pay respects to

the mat -- the family of a murdered police officer and I think anybody

in the same circumstances would see no logical reason why I should not

have done. I was proud to be there as a former police officer. We have

learnt that Ross Hussey is not alone in his views. Lord Trimble

was once the hero of Orangemen after he helped negotiate our way

down their Garvaghy Road in 1995. - - a way. But when he was Ulster

Unionist leader he also faced the threat of being expelled from the

order when he went to two masses for the victims of the Omagh bomb.

It was absolutely clear once that terrible event had happened that I

should go. There are circumstances when it is one's duty as a gritters

-- Christian and even as a politician to go to services in

other churches. No complaint was made against Ross Hussey and he

believes Sandy Row Orangemen should examine their own actions and not

those of his party colleagues. should look to their own conscience

and their own Christian values. This was a man who died serving his

country. I can't see the logic of the complaint. Of course, for those

who do not share the Order's views of the Mass, this may seem very

strange. But to Orangemen it is vitally important. Here is the

crucial point. Stars attending a mass mean you are participating in

it? -- dos attending. The official line is clear, once you cross the

threshold of a church you are taking part in it blasphemous act.

A Roman Catholic funeral Mass or a Roman Catholic wedding mass is in

the first instance an act of worship. That is what it is.

Therefore, unless you're going to worship you have to ask yourself

why am I there? But David Trimble and Ross Hussey say they were in

the Catholic Church as a mark of respect, not to participate in the

mass. I attended an act of Christian worship, I did not

participate in the Roman Catholic communion. The Lord's Prayer is

said in a Roman Catholic Church and in the Church I went to add my

mother's knee. Did you feel that going to the mass had any

implications be a Protestant faith? No. Why? It doesn't. I was there to

show respect to the deceased. It was an entirely appropriate context.

Last month, Tom Elliott's Lodge of Fermanagh and dank -- Danny

Kennedy's Lodge held a hearing into the complaint. At the secret

meeting in Portadown, both politicians and members of Sandy

Row were present to put their case. Tom Elliott and Danny Kennedy had

hoped this would clarify that the rule on participation does not bar

and orange man from attending a mass. -- and Orangeman. Do you

think the role will change in some way? I think it will be clarified

and it will be a landmark judgment. But the counties decided the case

was not proven, giving no clarification on the role of

attending Mass. -- that rule. Over 40 years the -- 40 years ago the

Orange Order was told that members could attend after Phelim O'Neill

and RJH Cramsie attended a mass. This is a legal opinion that the

Orange Order sort back again. It reveals that as senior barrister

took the view that the wording about participating in a mass did

not ban an Orangeman from going into the mass, it only was a ban on

participating. But when we asked the deputy grandmaster about this

legal opinion he still insisted that Orangemen are not allowed to

attend Mass. Are you aware of the legal opinion

from 1967? It says that the rules do not say that you cannot attend.

An Orangeman should not countenance by his presence or otherwise any

act or sermon of Roman Catholic worship. I think in plain man's

English that is clear enough. has been the perception but

according to this legal opinion it is the wrong perception. I do not

agree with it. As a former lawyer, David Trimble says this rule on pot

is a patient is a bad role in more ways than one. I think it is

deliberately ambiguous because the Orange Order at might get

difficulty getting agreement on a clear of rule, but they should have

a rule that makes it clear. tonight spotlight can also revealed

that the threat to expel Danny Kennedy and Tom Elliott has not

gone away. There is a pit -- an appeal against the "not proven"

decision. This is Sandy Row Lodge parading in Belfast two weeks ago

on Reformation Day, a celebration Some observers believe the

complaint exposes another divide between what is in some cases a

hardline wing of the Order in the towns and cities and a more

moderate outlook in Green Cross Code Man areas. Jon Tongue, the

author of a recent book on the Orange Order, believes the division

is mocked. The Orange Order is divided. In rural areas they are

benign and charitable. In urban areas, there is a harder line. They

have lost a lot of members, so they are more hardline.

But a lot of what goes on in the halls is so sure. At this event in

the countryside outside Lisburn, old-time dancing classes take place

to a well executed beat and it is a scene repeated up and down the

country. Brian Kennaway is a former convenor of the Grand Lodge of

Ireland and has also written about the Orange Order. He says many

people in the countryside have adopted a different attitude to

their hard line counterpart in the towns and cities. People in rural

Ulster, like Tom Eliot, they take an ambivalent attitude and feel

that, well, it is a mark of respect and I should go to the funeral or

mass for my friend. That would present no real difficulties.

former republican prisoner, Sean Murray now works to result parading

issues. He says his view of the Orange Order, collared by

experiences of contentious marches in Belfast, changed when he

accepted invitations to parade in the countryside. I found it a very

rewarding experience because it gave me another insight, another

image of what Orange Order's represent. It did not present any

threat to me. But the key division in the Order is not between town

and country. It between modernisers who wish to add that the

organisation to the 21st century and Conservatives, who believe

change is a threat to their core religious beliefs. And tonight we

can rebuild this division goes to the heart of the Order. Even

splitting its seven senior chaplains. We know that four of

them, including Alastair Smith, do not believe that Orangemen should

go to Catholic Mass. The roles were revised in 2008. There was no

attempt whatsoever to change the rules, their top that suggests to

me that in fact this is a fallacy. This is something that has been

blown out of all proportion by a few. However, Spotlight has learned

that a letter demanding a review of the Rolls has been drafted. --

roles. It is being voted on tonight in Tom Kennedy's area. That is one

of the problems of the Orange Order. It is split between modernisation

and the traditionalists. There are debates whether they should be the

branded, whether they should liberalise. The Orange Order is not

split asunder, but there are serious divisions. It will not

cause a split. This perhaps is part of the fear, that if they deal with

that issue, it will cause a split. But by not dealing with it, they

are haemorrhaging. Whether the issue will cause a split is not

certain. What is clear that two high-profile figures in a political

party feel unable to speak out. We asked Tom Eliot and Danny Kennedy

several times to speak about their feelings on the mass brawls. But we

-- mass brawls. We know they want to see it change.

Why is it that you are effectively gagging Tom Eliot and Danny Kennedy

and will not let them talk to us? Every organisation, when there are

issues to be discussed, appoint a spokesman to discuss the matter and

I am the guy in the hot seat today. I have been asked by the Crown

officers of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland to be the on this

particular issue. But you are stifling other Orangemen. It is not

for the World at large. It has to be dealt with internally, within

the family. So what happens now? Brian Kennaway says it's a question

of whether the modernisers are prepared to force it through the

roles on attending Mass. There is this opposition to change.

One of the proverbs that are quoted his medal not with men that are

given to change. Any threat of change is seen as a compromise and

so it is difficult to pursue change at that level in the Grand Order.

The majority would have been sympathetic to change, but it is

just getting the courage to stand up and say that and produce the

change. But there are those who feel the debate should be less

about modernisers and traditionalists and more a matter

of common sense. Do you think there will be a difficulty because you

had a broad church wing and an evangelical wing? A I would not

lose those terms. I do not think that is the right-eyed dichotomy.

The few a person of principle, then you add here to your principles.

if you are a person of principle then you will stick to your

principles. Anyone can express a private opinion. If they want to

test the water, test the water. We are a democratic organisation and

we are willing to discuss things. We have nothing to hide. It is here

and take Grand Lodge officers meeting that Orange Order at

Business is discussed. They like to do things in private, but for the

first time, they have allowed a camera into one of their meetings.

I need to check if I have some devotional responsibilities. Some

commentators suggest that behind closed doors, or Grand lodges are

walking a tightrope between the modern and conservative wings. --

the Grand Lodge. They claim that whilst it is preoccupy papering

over the cracks, it is failing to adapt to changing times.

biggest threat to the Orange Order does not come from expansive Roman

Catholicism, it is from secularism. People are moving away from

religion. The Orange Order and need to stay relevant in a society where

we are less God-fearing than in the past. It is one of the problems of

the Orange Order in the 21st century. They have identified their

own enemy and they are fighting their own battle. They still see

the enemy as Catholicism, nationalism, republicanism. The

real threat is secularism and the modern society. For those hoping to

see a modernised Orange Order, the fundamental problem remains. A

recent survey of Orange men show differing of public people.

majority of Orange Order members believe that it is anti- Roman

Catholic Church. It is difficult to escape that charge. The Orange

Order was set up partly to oppose the false doctrines of the Church

of Rome. It says it is the responsibility of Orange Order

members to treat Catholics with respect. Ultimately, we do not like

your church, but we treat our Catholic neighbours courteously.

The challenges which modern life posed to the Order were underlined

last month by the announcement that the better that rain will now be

allowed to marry a Catholic. It was probably no surprise that the

institution last weekend protested against this decision. The problem

for the audit is that whilst in his life to the Crown, it does not

allow its own members to marry Catholics. But again, the Orange

Order plays down the development. do not think that does present a

challenge to the Orange Order because, of course, the monarch

will still be a member, be required to be a member of the Church of

England. That is not going to change. There is a problem though.

You can have a monarch married to a Catholic... A I am saying from a

political point of view, that scenario you are describing is very

far from ideal. -- IM. So you still give your loyalty to the monarchy

is married to a Catholic? position within the Orange Order is

we support the monarch being a So what does the future hold for

the Orange Order? There are fewer young people joining the Order.

Overall, numbers are down from 100,000 in the 1960s to around

35,000 today. Whilst they are seen to be many who look to the order

for their social life, the rules on Catholicism, the negative images of

the Order and the advance of secular life have all been blamed

for the fall in membership. Grand Lodge has tried to address this by

turning the 12th into a friendlier tourist attraction and the Order

has a Skene reaching out to Catholic schools. -- a scheme.

But it is clear that at the top, attitudes to the mass remain

unchanged. At fact that was made clear when the Grand Master spoke

to us on Remembrance Day. Grand Master, a word. And for that first

time, he publicly revealed his stance on attending Mass. Have you

been into a mass yourself? I have not. Could you explain why it not?

Well, the reason I do not vote and mass is because of the theological

differences between the Roman Catholic faith and a were faith. --

and our faith. Does that caused problems for you, in terms of your

friendships with a Catholic? Not a tour. We have a healthy respect for

each other. And you do not feel it is disrespectful not to go to the

mass? I do not. What about other Orangemen who go it into mass?

there is up to them. I am not prepared to answer for them. They

have to answer for themselves. Would you like to see things

changed to reflect that? It is an internal matter and I am not

prepared to discuss it. But don't you pick it is an idea to change

the rules. It is up to our membership. But Father D'Arcy it

says -- says removing a ban on Orangemen going into mass would do

more for the Order than any PR exercise. I say if you can change

it, do so as soon as possible. Shaun Murray says that his view is

echoed by Republicans. Changing the mass a role could be the first

small step towards dealing with issues such as contentious parades.

I think it is incumbent on the Orange Order to make us understand

exactly what the Order is and what it represents an what represents in

a modern society. But Alastair Smith says it will be an internal

matter Orangemen alone. He suggests that things will not change easily.

If people want to express concern about the ball, they have an

opportunity to do so. -- about the roles. Remember, our qualifications

are based on God's Word and God's work does not change. For Ross

Hussey and other Orangemen the message is clear. A I say to them,

I was right to go. So you would risk expulsion again? If someone is

prepared to lay down their life for the people of Northern Ireland, I

am prepared to go to the funeral, but I hope I never have to do it a

gain. So what of the Orange Order's role on participation in the mass?

In the last half a century, 66 Orangemen had been expelled for

going into a Catholic Church and over 200 have been forced out for