The Saltire and the Union Spotlight

June. Also we have the Clipper round-the-world yacht race at the

end of June. In the next few months, we have events all the time.

Thank you very much. The square is well worth checking out so maybe we

will see you here some time. Time now for a look at what the

Time now for a look at what the weather has planned for the next

few days. Here's Barra Best. Winds are quite high at the moment

and they will stay high overnight and into tomorrow. Generally it is

a largely dry night, but there will be some damp weather continuing to

be blown in from the north. Temperatures will stay at around

five or six degrees. No frost to worry about. It will be a cold

start tomorrow. But nothing will change. It will stay cloudy and we

hold on to the winds. Very little in the way of brighter weather

first thing, but maybe the odd glimmer. For the north coast, here,

we hold on to some patchy rain. That continues through the day. The

picture across Ireland is the sunny spells are at their best in

Scotland and central England. May be some brightness through the rest

of the coast. Some pictures tomorrow between nine and 10

degrees. -- temperatures. For us, our temperatures are between eight

and nine degrees. In the south-east we may get the odd 10 degrees. Not

too bad. A few degrees above average. Although there will be a

lot of cloud, it will be bright at time. We will see some doubt

whether from the north coast. On Thursday we introduce another front.

It is going to bring some rain. Temperatures will be up to nine or

10 degrees. Improving as we did to 10 degrees. Improving as we did to

the end of the week but by the weekend the temperatures begin to

fall again. That's it for now. You can also

keep up to date with the news online and follow this programme on

Facebook and Twitter. From BBC Two politicians, one unionist and

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 87 seconds

one republican Our future, our resources, and our success, should

be in our own hands. I passionately believe we are stronger together,

rather than breaking apart. Frankly, I'm sad we are even having this

debate. Peter Robinson and I have a castle in Belfast. I'm sure we

would be prepared to make it available for peace discussions

between the British government and Scotland! To many uenss here it's

no laughing matter am some fear the fight for Scottish independence

will achieve what republican terrorism has not. I see those

proposals as a bigger threat to the union of the United Kingdom than

the IRA is at present. Scottish nationalists say that is an

Australian UN fair analogy. Terrible comment to make. Misjudged.

Comparing the SNP a political party, totterries acts of mindless

thuggery. The Scottish referendum could herald the biggest shake-up

to the United Kingdom in three centuries. The implications for

Northern Ireland are potentially huge. Could Scottish independence

re-start the conflict in Northern Ireland, as some claim? If the

Scottish nationalists were to succeed, it could possibly re-

ignite the difficulties that we have just managed to overcome.

Tonight, on Spotlight, we are in Scotland. We have brought with us

two politicians, one unionist and one republican some unionists fear

that Scottish independence could destroy the union. We ask, what it

could mean for Northern Ireland and its position within the United

Our journey bins at a Burns Night supper in County Londonderry. This

celebration in Tobermore Orange Hall, is one of the biggest social

events in the local Calder. Since the plantation of the early 1600s,

Ulster Scots have had deep religious, social and cultural ties

with their fellow Scots, 20 miles across the Irish Sea. For many in

the unionist community, those links are as strong today. Here there is

great affection for the people of Scotland, who are regarded as

kinsfolk. They have come to toast the haggis and to celebrate their

Scottish culture through poetry, music and dance. I'll cut you up...

Alex Salmond's talk of Scottish independence and the possible

break-up of the union draw as raw and deeply emotional response here.

I think it's disgraceful because we've come through two world wars

and the nation all fought together. You look at how many people have

lost their relatives in wars and that, he is going to succeed where

the Germans failed by breaking up the union. If cot land do break

away from the UK it will let the English and Welsh people see that

the people that's with him, the people that want to be there will

only strengthen what they have. It would let England see who their

friends are and where their loyalties lie. If Scotland was to

get their independence, Wales could follow suit.we would have the

scenario of a united Ireland, does the North need to be in the United

Kingdom? I think it would be drastic for Northern Ireland.

People here clearly cherish their relationship with Scotland. One man,

who has fought to uphold that relationship around the globe, is

Ulster unionist Lord Laird. From Artnagarvan in County Tyrone, he is

passionate about everything Scottish. The former Head of the

Ulster Scots Agency, he is the most high-profile proponent of Ulster

Scots as a language. We decided to take Lord Laird on a trip to find

out more about Scottish independence and what the outcome

of the referendum could mean for Northern Ireland. Accompanying him,

Barry McEldulff person, a republican from Tyrone. The Sinn

Fein MLA is passionate about the gaelic tradition and is well-known

as a champion of the GAA and the Irish language. John Laird set out

on his journey on the very clear views on the way forward for

Scotland. I would be opposed to independence. I'm opposed to any

form of nationalism. I think nationalism is narrow and small.

It's lacks self confidence. Barry McEldulff began the trip with very

different, but firmly held opinions on Scottish independence. Well,

Sinn Fein genuinely believes in the concept of national self

determination for Ireland, principally, and, of course, for

Scotland. It would be wrong of us to be prescriptive to the Scottish

Scotland is potentially on the cusp of momentous change. There is an

enormous sense of expectation here, as people prepare for months of

debate and ultimately a decision which could strike at the very

heart of the UK's constitution and reverberate across British finance,

industry and the military. The Robert the Bruce monument at

Bannockburn, which commemorates a great Scottish victory over the

English. Today, Scottish nationalists want to hold their

referendum in 2014, the 700th anniversary of that battle.

Scottish victory here was overwhelming. There was almost

annihilation of the English noblt elite. They were actually the main

victims of the Scottish pikemen. It took a very large number of years

after 1314 for English forces, as it were, to restore their

credibility. I don't think that the romantic or historical significance

of 1314 will play all that great a part. It will certainly give a kind

of lustre. The Scottish people are not daft. They will be looking very

carefully indeed at all the arguments. The arguments will be

essentially based on politics, aspirational attitudes in Scotland

and, above all, of course, the likely future of the economy.

Barry McEldulff there are clear parallels with the famous Irish

victory over the English in County Tyrone. For me this is like the

battle of the Yellowford at Benburb in 1598 when Huw O'Neill vanquished

English forces at Yellowford? I like history. I love history and

the past, I don't want to live in. It you could pick up stuff out of

history and Tuesday for your own use. With respect to Irish

Republican and Scottish nationalist you can pick these things. The

unionists can pick the same thing and interpret it another way. You

pick them when it suits you. Peace. I will be the umpire here. This

might surprise your listeners and viewers in Ireland. In the 19th

century Bruce and Wallace were regarded by the unionists as heroes.

The argument was that both of them in their different wayes had

preserved the independence the of Scotland. A very interesting point.

Can you see how you interpret history to suit yourselves. You are

a walking contradiction yourself. The papers are reporting a surge

for support in independence, 20 points up, they say, on previous

polls. One small survey. It's headline news. We have two-and-a-

half years until the poll. A lot of people will come to common sense,

who will pay for all sorts of things. If Scotland gets

independence. 51% would not frighten me at all. It's

interesting in that we are in the middle of an economic recession.

51% are, you know, stating their position for independence. Earlier

this month, the Scottish National Party leader said his goal is

political independence. The Queen, would remain Head of State. Alex

Salmond wants to ask the Scottish people one question. Do you agree

that Scotland should be an independent country? Even the

wording of the question on the ballot paper has caused a huge row.

David Cameron says the SNP is posing a loaded and coercive

question. David Cameron is insisting on a "straight-forward

yes or no question on independence". If Scottish people do vote for

independence, what will the impact be on Northern Ireland? The more I

heard of this word "independence" I have a notion in my head that

Tyrone could pull it off. Who would be the Head of State. We took our

politicians to meet constitutional expert, Christine Bell, originally

from Northern Ireland, now based here at Edinburgh University.

Christine has reassuring news for John Laird. The Good Friday

agreement safeguards Northern Ireland's position within the union,

irrespective of the outcome of a Scottish referendum. I think in

terms of the immediate constitutional status of Northern

Ireland, if we are looking at constitutional... You know, would

you Northern Ireland be propelled into a united Ireland. It doesn't

affect that at all. The Belfast Agreement anticipated it. Unlike

the Scot land Act, the Northern Ireland Act makes provision for a

referendum. It's clear that the conditions for a ref aren't there

at the minute. Behind the headline figures, recent polls indicate a

definite increase in support for independence. That support is still

a long way from being a majority. What is more significant is the

rise in the number of English people who want a Parliament of

their own. Have you learnt anything new? One thing that struck me today.

There is a rising sense of Englishness, a sense of England on

the part of English people. You know, I wonder, from a union point

of view, you know, is that, is that auguring, sort of, a psychological

break-up? In that a notion of Britishness is dissipating and

Scottishness and Englishness is on the rise? I'm not a player in this

referendum. I'm a spectator because I'm going to allow the Scottish

people to determine their own affairs. You're a player. You want

to get actively involved in this campaign. I think you might learn

from spectating this. OK. It could be the Republic of Ireland crease

ceasing to be a republic and coming back into the UK. Can we agree to

disagree? We can always agree to disagree. Dinner in Edinburgh for

our two politicians, some people from Northern Ireland, who now live

and work here. We wanted to know what they think about Scottish

independence and what it means for Northern Ireland. Lord Laird is

immediately challenged on what Scottish independence could mean

for the future of Ulster unionism. I'm sick, sore and tired of every

morning getting up having to say, how do we defend the union today. I

do not wish to be a unionist. I wish to be a politician. But I'm

forced to be a unionist because I perceive people working against us.

I perceive we have no other way... We don't have an existence, we

don't have an existence unless we can keep Northern Ireland as part

of the United Kingdom. That is the way we analyse things today.

Scotland is outside that. Scotland is outside that, how do you feel?

Hold on. My big fear about skos Scottish nationalism and Scottish

independence is that it might go down what I regard as Irish

Nationalism. The one thing I learnt is that it's a melting pot. It's a

big melting pot. I'm not clear in my own mind exactly how to handle,

accept that we will help to fight the nationalists in some shape,

sense or form. Pauline Goldsmith is an actress, originally from Belfast.

She comes from a background. She has lived in Scotland for 16 years

and says Irish and Scottish nationalism are very different.

Independence in Scotland its very diverse. Its international looking

it's not based on one religion. It's very mixed. Fundamentally, it

has at its heart social justice and equality. That, I think, is what

attracts people to independence who are not necessarily nationalists.

Business man, Paul Nelson, is from a unionist background in Lisburn.

He describes himself as an Ulster Scot. He settled in Glasgow 25

years ago. I do think the Scottish independence will do more to damage

the United Kingdom that that the -- than the IRA ever did is correct.

There is no union after. That the IRA's objective in that respect

would have gone. However, there would still be, presumably, a union

between Northern Ireland and England? I think it puts it under

tremendous pressure. Northern Ireland is an irrelevance for

England. Journalist and author, Neil Mackay, is from a mixed

religious background in Antrim. think Euniceism will find itself in

a very difficult bind. Let's say in the hypothetical world that

Scotland went independence, what is unionism? There is no union. What

is going to happen to the DUP and the UUP? How do you define your

ideological territory? What territory do you sit on? The union

is not just with Scotland it is the rest of the United Kingdom. What it

if the arch English person goes, we don't care if we lose Scotland.

What about that much more problematic country? Our two

politicians meet Humza Yousaf a rising star in the SNP. One of the

faiszs of the referendum campaign, he has already been tipped as a

future leader of his party. He describes himself as a Scottish

Pakistani and says his party's brand of nationalism is all

inclusive. What are you going to get through independence in terms

of freedom and new law that is you can't get right now? What our

independence is about is about independence to grow jobs. To

create jobs. It's the independence to grow the economy. Independence

not to send our sons and daughters to fight in illegal wars. It is the

independence to create a welfare system that is just and that it

doesn't punish the disabled. Who is going to pay for all this? We more

than pay our own way. What are the implications of Scottish

independence to your mind for example the north of Ireland. Do

you think there are consequences or knock-on affects for us in terms of

the future? That is a fair question to ask. There will be implications

for the whole of the rest of the UK. Possibly wider as well. The English

people want an English Parliament. Want an English representation.

That has gone up massively and swelled in the last couple of

months. It is their sporting ties that lead to some animated debate.

I'm a glory hunter at heart, apart from Celtic football club, who I

have supported all my life. know what the definition of an

atheist is? What is that? Someone who goes from a Rangers Celtic

match to watch the football. I wanted to ask Humza Yousaf what he

made of the Ulster unionist leader's warning that the battle

for Scottish independence could do more damage to the union than the

IRA? I think it's a terrible comment to make. For the last 77 to

compare a political party to the terrorist acts of mindless thuggery.

It was felt that Scottish independence could re-ignite the

conflict in Northern Ireland? is a very inflammatory statement to

make. What is his reaction to Peter Robinson's call to unionists to

campaign against Scottish independence? I would almost pay

for their bus fare and train fare to come over. Every time unionists

from Westminster or from outside of Scotland tries to interfere in the

democratic will of the Scottish people, it backfires immensely.

fears that they would not win a referendum on full independence

have led them to offer the public the possibility of an extra

question on the ballot paper. An option known as devolution max.

That would increase the Scottish Parliament's powers, but falls just

short of complete independence. It's a measure that finds support

among many Scottish politicianes who want to stay inside the union.

Politicians like former First Minister heny McLeish. I'm not

looking for a compromise, bau better alternative which keeps

Scotland within the union. Hopefully, a different union. It

allows Scottish -- Scotland to have more financial powers. Devo max?

It's home rule within the union. If you want to keep the union, be more

sensitive to what parts of the union want. Alex Salmond wants --

once painted a picture of Ireland Scotland and Iceland as arc of

prosperity. Ireland and Iceland are now bust. Where does that leave

Scotland? Could it stand on it is own financially. We put that

question to Bill Jamieson? Executive edit Orthor of the

Scotsman. There is a set of facts as the nationalists see. It in

other words a Scotland that was accumulating North Sea oil reserves

would be a very viable country and would not have any problem raising

money on the international money markets. Another truth is, that an

independent Scotland would not be able to survive. It wouldn't have a

terrorism A rating. Could an independent Scotland maintain its

current commitments to welfare spending and social benefits, and

the unionists say, no, it cannot be depon. After much debate our dinner

guests greed that ultimately money will decide Scotland's future. Paul

Nelson does 90% of his trade in England and Wales. Is there

business confidence in the notion of Scottish independence across

business, would you say? Across business, I think, it's pretty

solidly against Scottish independence. There are a few big

main the hitters. To develop develop money we need open borders

and less borders. We don't need more. Pauline Goldsmith gold says

Scots must not allow the Republic of Ireland's experience frighten

them away from independence. idea is that we would have more

control and accountability of our politicians and our banks and the

society we have if we had independence. If the union did

break up, who would decide who gets what and how much? How do you

untangle oil. In a divorce, who gets the art and the gold? Who gets

the cat? It it -- it is bigger than a cat, it's North Sea oil.

visiting is causing a stir. Some of our interest in the Scots is

mirrored by their interest in us. On day three, our two politicians

are being filmed by a BBC Scotland Newsnight crew. I'm from a Scottish

background myself. I do not like the idea of Scots going into

something that could end up in a narrow sectarian, narrow little

state. Not dissimilar to that of the Irish Republic. Our two

politicians are invited on to Call Kaye, one of Scotland's biggest

radio talk shows. Let me know your thoughts this morning. Should we,

in Scotland, care what impact independence should it ever come to

pass, have on our neighbours, in Northern Ireland. The problem you

have with nationalism. I have to speak about Irish Nationalism is

that to prove itself it had to be different from everybody else.

Therefore, polished up symbols and things and ideas which would be

anathema to us from a non- nationalist viewpoint. Lord Laird

ends up bearing the brunt of most of the callers anger, all deeply

irritated by his former leader's suggestion that independence could

re-ignite the conflict in Northern Ireland. These are just

scaremongering stories that are being put around to try and

frighten people into backing off from what is every nation's destiny,

the right to control its own borders, to control its own

economics, to do everything that is good for its own people and then to

turn its attention to the world. have Stephen in Ayrshire. Morning.

Good morning. I have listened with great interest. I have to say the

unionist gentleman, from Ireland, he really has not got a grasp on

the reality. Why should everything be controlled by London? He says he

fears that Scotland would become rather narrow in the nationalism.

The reality is we are a European nation. We are European now.

terms of Ireland, are you excited by the fact that this debate is

going on in Scotland? Are you hopeful that it might kind of re-

ignite a different kind of fire, a nationalist fire in Ireland?

would be keen not to express a partisan opinion on the internal

debate within Scotland. It is, apparently, having an unsettling

effect on unionism. Remember, I'm somebody that is opposed to the

union. I suppose, it's interesting when John, John Laird would say

things like, "I'm a unionist" if Scotland achieved its independence,

who would the union be with? At the end of the day, it's a disappearing

union. You got some stick on Call Kaye. Did you see her facial

expresses when they were ringing in, "what planet does he live on?".

What they were doing was listening carefully to what I said and taking

in every word as if it was a gem or a pearl. Yeah, yeah. I think that

is very interesting. It's a very important point. I was glad to meet

Kaye, she is a big personality in broadcasting in Scotland.

didn't know her surname. Her surname was Adams. You thautd --

thought thats with a Scottish name. Easy to remember. Alphabetically it

was always top of the ballot paper. For Scots the question of

independence is a battle between head and heart. The long tradition

of Scottish regularments in the British Army, pitted against modern

fears of nuclear bases in Scotland. The desire to march into a new

progress if future, lined up against the security of the past.

All very difficult issues, but for Scottish Conservatives, the kaisz

for the union is overwhelming. think there is a very strong

argument both for the head and the heart for Scotland to remain part

of the United Kingdom. If you look at Scottish soldiers wearing a