Spotlight Special Spotlight

Hello and welcome to Spotlight Special. Over the next hour, our

studio audience will be putting questions and the big issues of the

day to our panel, let's introduce them to you. Joining us are the

Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton of the DUP. The broadcasting doctor,

Mark Hamilton. Bob McCartney QC a former MP and MLA. Patricia MacBride

a former victims' commissioner. The Sinn Fein MP knewy Armagh, Conor

Murphy. Ladies and gentlemen, that sour line-up for tonight's Spotlight

Special. APPLAUSE

-- is our. You at home have your part to play. We want to know what

you think about the talking points of the day. You can text your

comments throughout the programme to 81 7716789 you can phone and email

us and tweet your comments to us use # spotlight NI. Follow us on

Twitter. The details are on the screen right now: Texts will be

charged at your standard message rate. Let's plunge right in. Our

first question tonight is from Aidan Hannah, a trade union organiser. Why

is there still a climate of fear within the NHS and why is frontline

staff still afraid to blow the whistle? The NHS making headlines

every day. Nurses saying morale never lower. The new boss of the NHS

in England saying the service is facing it is biggest challenge in

history. This is because of lack of resources. If it's bad management,

do we need to know about that? Should staff be eager to tell us

about. It if we go to the man with most specialist knowledge on this,

Mark. I think that the thing in England has really caused a lot of

problems with Mid Staffs, the Francis Report had something like

290 recommendations. It was everything from, you know, the very

basic level of care with patients being poor and inhumane, right up to

management level, to MPs. It, basically, a culture that has been

allowed to per veil in that area. When I look at the reports from

North Antrim, similar picture seems to be coming through that, you know,

morale is low, staff are afraid to question it. The duties of doctors

and nurses are laid out very clearly. You know, you are supposed

to point out if something is going wrong. You're supposed to blow the

whistle, but when - that is not being heard. I have worked in places

where that is not heard. The feeling that you are left with is - well,

you know, I can't seem to change this. I'm trying my best here, the

demands are getting greater. Patients are requiring more. There

is more available to treat them nowadays than there was 20 or 30

years ago, scans and intensive treatments. There are a wider range

of treatments available. You are under pressure. Resources seem to be

squeezed. It is coming from all angles. The frontline staff are

dealing with the patients. They are the ones who it affects more. Speak

through their representative bodies, through unions and doctor

organisations, for example, would you like to see more people simply

coming to the media and saying - this is what I think is wrong with

the NHS Yeah, I think that has to happen. In Mid Staffs, and other

places in England, senior doctors, professors and surgeons were being

threatened and their job was at risk. How would a June or doctor --

junior doctor put their hands up and say this is wrong. Mr Poots has been

talking about the duty of candour. It was raised by a group which works

with the victims of alleged hospital accidents. Why are we talking about

that now? Shouldn't there always have been this idea that if there is

something wrong, we in the health service management want to hear

about it? We as politicians wants to hear about it? Absolutely. We don't

want to have a situation where health professionals are actually

worried about coming forward with problems that they see, that they

should have clear lines of reporting up the line so that the people who

need to know, who can make changes within management level, within our

health trust and hospitals are able to take that action

decountriesively. Why is there -- decisive. Why is there a culture of

fear I don't think the culture is just as bad here. There have been

problems here in Northern Ireland as well. Yet, we had the case of a man

who died after receiving potassium incorrectly. No coroners

investigation of that, for example. It may not have been a cover-up in

the Northern Trust area, certainly what happened should not have

happened? Absolutely. I don't think anybody would say what happened

should have happened or the consequences there after should have

happened. Within Northern Ireland, what happens here isn't massively

different sometimes to what happens elsewhere in the world. Clinicians

are making judgment calls day in and day out. Most times they get it

wrong. Occasionally, they will get it wrong. We have to realise - it

doesn't matter whether it's Northern Ireland, England, or anywhere in the

world, health officials are under pressure because of the demand they

face day in day out. Doctors say they are afraid of getting caught in

the long grass. There is a danger people feel about whistle blowing

isn't there? There is. We should get it into proportion. The problem in

Northern Ireland, I think people should be free to blow the whistle,

and I think the people who are most guilty of intimidation are not the

actual medical staff or the nursing staff. It's the bureaucracy that are

running our hospitals. Most evident in England where the man who was in

charge of the Mid Staffs, where there were nearly 2,000 deaths

aribable to lack of care, was Sir James Nicholson, was it? He was

actually in charge of the operation of supervising that group of

hospitals, despite the fact that all of these things happened under his

watch. He was promoted to be Head of the entire National Health Service.

Organisations will always act to protect themselves, won't they? Of

course. There is absolutely no question. I used to say that the

civil service had the great organisation for protecting their

mistakes. People who made mistakes, rather than being made to paid for,

it were generally kicked upstairs, as Nicholson was. At the same time,

many of the problems that, for example, are assailing, for example,

the Accident Emergency in the Royal are brought about by a number

of factors. One, money. Money was ring financed on -- ringfenced on

the mainland by David Cameron. It was not ringfenced in Northern

Ireland. That additional money which should have gone to health was spent

on a number of other projects decided on by the Assembly. Policies

such as out of hours doctors. Doctors got a big deal under the

Blair arrangement. They didn't have to work out of hours. They didn't

have to work at weekends. Result - enormous pressure on the A at the

weekends when mothers, elderly folk, relatives were taking people

directly to the A Thirdly, the alcoholics who were certainly not

anonymous. On Friday and Saturday the A system was totally

overloaded with alcoholic accidents. I suppose staff in those A

departments don't have time to whistle blow, do they? That is part

of the issue. What is it exactly you are going to whistle blow about?

There are so many problems. Is the fact that Ambulance Service response

times in rural areas are way beyond target because the investment hasn't

been sufficient and quick enough to get those people who are now finding

themselves without an A into an emergency department much more

quickly? Is it because, you know, there is not sufficient resources?

Is it because the front door is open, the back door to bring people

into the ward, where they can be properly medically treated or

surgically treated - If we know this stuff, why do we need

whistleblowers. We kind of know? If we look at what is happening with

whistle blowing in the south of Ireland at the moment and the impact

it's having. The support isn't there for the people who stand up and say

the system is flawed, things are wrong. We have a situation where a

Garda commissioner has been effectively removed from office and

the minister for justice is under threat. The support network isn't

there for whistleblowers for people brave enough to say, here is the

problem. We need to identify it and address it. Our local government

should hang their heads in shame. In 2014 people lined up on trolleys in

the Royal Hospital, where was the sense of closing down A in the

Belfast City Hospital? Total disgrace?

APPLAUSE Hang your head in shame. I don't

happen to be in the Assembly. You are a politician. Having said that,

you know... We will get to the stage of talking about whistleblowers, you

had a failure in the system. People should be able to bring forward, as

part of their every day work and experience thoeshgs at the frontline

services should be able to communicate with those taking

decision in relation to health profession. This is a systematic

block there. You end up with a situation where you have

whistleblowers and people contemplating going outside the

norm. You say people should feel free. It's not just the NHS. Any

organisation. People don't like the thought of going to their line

manager saying - I think we are doing it wrongly. There has been a

bad mistake here. They know the organisations impulse is to keep it

quiet? Particularly with health. Where people's lives are in threat.

There should be a built in system where the pressures are communicated

through without fear of criticism. Communicated to those making the

decisions to close down hospitals and other services. Do you get that

by getting the minister to go hospitals and say - come to me with

your problems? He can't go to every hospital. A system needs to be put

in place. In terms of hearing from frontline staff at the cold face of

dealing with these problems is in the middle of that system of

bureaucracy. The complaints and issues they have are not getting

through to those managing and taking decisions in relation to the health

service. Smart says, it is a cultural issue.

If you look at the policeman down south who have come forward, they

are people that have nothing to lose. -- as Mark says. They blew the

whistle on the awarding of penalty points for driving offences. They

are practically removed from the system. How can you expect someone

whose livelihood depends on it to come forward? There is also an issue

of, are of a culpable for what they report? It is a lengthy procedure

once you raise the issue. That is another issue. Finally, I am a

pharmacist and it is a prosecutable offence to admit to dispensing

unlawfully. How can you have a culture? It is like decriminalising

homosexuality. Wet macro if you made a mistake, do you think you would be

prosecuted? I don't know. And to go back to decriminalising

homosexuality in the South, it was a breakthrough and there was a sense

of freedom. You cannot have a legislative impediment like that.

The gentleman in the front row. And would like to know why the Health

Minister is not a qualified medical doctor. You should know the system

inside and out and then maybe we would not have these issues with

inexperienced advice. Auditions are not always directly connected with

the briefs they get. And that is universal. I feel that the health

service is focusing on the wrong area. They are promoting health and

the community without resources and they are putting more pressure on

the casualty departments. They are closing departments on a routine

basis. They have to decide to reopen beds in the hospitals and admit

Morse patients or they have to decide to invest in secondary health

care. -- more patients. They cannot have it both ways. A quick comment?

The Health Minister stated this week that a lot of this work practice

happened before his work. But what happened in his work was that in

2012 he ordered a review of Antrim area hospital and review heard that

staff within the area A reported a culture of bullying and

victimisation. And still we continually hear from doctors and

nurses afraid to blow the whistle because of bullying and

victimisation. We should commend the Health Minister for taking the step

of having a review. There has been a significant change of leadership in

the Northern trust area. And with the stated objective of changing the

culture. On the point of budgets, the health system in Northern

Ireland is spending ?4.9 billion a year, over 40% of our total spend.

It's got an increase in the last budget when many other apartments

did not. I think we should commend them for the progress they have

made. But that money was not ring fenced, as it was in England. We may

have the chance to speak about this later but this is a different issue.

Moving on to John, a retail assistant. How can the political

system restore innocent victims' confidence following the on the run

scandal. As he put it, the scandal was 200 letters of assurance sent to

Republicans. 300 letters sent to victims already. The issue was very

cruelly handled. I think there are none so blind as those who will not

see. This was an issue... Do you mean the Unionists? The information

was there and people knew the issue had been dealt with. It was

publicised in the Edens Bradley report and through the policing

board meetings. People refused to acknowledge that this was being

handled and they are responsible for developing a climate of fear and

mistrust. They have the responsibility of building the

trust. The issue is misinformation. This is not an amnesty or immunity.

These people sought clarification about whether or not it were wanted

for questioning, regarding offences that happens stoically. The

situation is, was and shall be that if information or evidence is

produced were individuals may be wanted for questioning or may be

brought before a Court in the future, that will still happen. So

the climate of fear that was created was wrong and damaging. And we have

a responsibility as a society to address that climate. Your party

meter sport of these letters as jet -- spoke of these letters as get out

of jail free cards. Did that contribute to the lack of trust?

What we saw with the dispensing of letters of comfort or get out of

jail free cards was nothing short of a corruption. But that is not what

they were. It was a corruption of justice, a process kept secret from

all of us. Except the Unionists. The very fact that Gerry Adams asked for

a process to be put into place that it be invisible, and Gerry Kelly

said that if the Unionists knew about it, it would cause crisis, it

shows that we did not know about it. It was brought up with the policing

board and you thought they were talking about something else? There

was plenty of talk, and that can recall having worked from the party

during the negotiations that led to devolution, and we were mindful of

this. Way back when the Ulster Unionists were leading unionism,

there was an attempt to deal with this legislatively and that fell and

did not proceed. We were incredibly careful to ask at every stage,

whether it was the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State, was there

anything in terms of the scheme... And you always believe everything

the Secretary of State tells you and the Prime Minister(!) The macro

whenever the Secretary of State is asked in the House of Commons and he

says that there was no amnesty, no other type of scheme, you have to

take him at his word. We are where we are. How do you restore

confidence? It is very hard to restore confidence for victims. What

is happening in terms of three enquiries which will get to the

truth, the fact that the police have come out and said that these letters

have no standing and they will be re-examined, and everyone will be

looked at again, that goes some way to ameliorating concerns of

victims. I've understand why victims who perhaps never thought they would

get justice anyway, when they see and hear what has been done, they

will be traumatised again, and it will reopen old wounds. I think it

is very bad political home work on the part of the Unionists to claim

that they did not know anything about it. Because it is stated in

that report that they were being dealt with. They ask simple

questions, who, what, where, when the why and how. And they would have

loved those answers. I think it is home work, bad research. There was

an automatic assumption from the media and politicians that these

people were guilty. They have not been convicted of anything. The

gentleman here. You, Sir. Father was murdered in 1887. That afternoon,

the Prime Minister promised no stone would be left unturned in the should

of justice. The British government has gone full circle and let the

victims down. They promised they would get us justice and they have

let us down. Why should we have faith in what people are saying

about the ordeal are two? We are trying to establish that. The First

Minister was able to order five enquiries into the scandal. Does

that leave it open for people like myself, who has been trying to get

an enquiry into the collusion of police and farmers, one of whom

murdered my brother. Can I get an enquiry? Can I get an enquiry into

that? Do you accept, Conor Murray fee, that confidence has been

damaged by this episode? Think it was a cynical exploits and --

exportation of these people. Clearly, these were not amnesty is.

That was apparent. I feel for the people who were wound up for a

political purpose. The political purpose was to get unionism out of

the Robert Hass process. They have worked away from the Haass Talks map

until such times that the issue is sorted. If you get the letter, you

get the letter, you're still not wanted for questioning. This

nonsense about enquiries and looking at the letters again is nonsense.

The process ended in failure for this. Lou macro -- the Haass process

is still ongoing. The First Minister has done is stepped away from it. We

cannot deal with these issues until the ODI issue is resolved. This was

a cynical exercise to wind up victims and feel sorry for the

victims who were hurt by it. They should not be hurt in this way. And

we should do what the Haass Talks were spent -- meant to be doing. In

2006 it was clear to me that there were two parties that were busting

to get into government, into this assembly. One of them was Sinn Fein

and the other was the DUP. A bill was put before Parliament in 2006

that would have included dealing with the on the runs on the same

basis as members of the security forces. Sinn Fein would have none of

that. Anything that granted the same privileges to members of the

security forces as to people who were involved in terrorism or were

believed to be involved in terrorism was out for them. The British

government was then forced, secretly, or semi-secretly, to

introduce a methodology of providing Sinn Fein with what they wanted,

some comfort about the future of the on the runs, but at the same time,

the DUP, I believe, were guilty of wilful ignorance. They may not have

known about it but the truth is, they did not wish to know about it.

I will let you come back to that. Two main things that occurred to

me. First of all, is your confidence damaged by it? Yes, in the sense

that there are laws and there are people who make the laws, and when

that line gets blurred, it does concern me. That things can be done

above the law. How do you follow the judicial system? Peter Hain said

this was part of the process of normalising the situation in

Northern Ireland. The other thing that struck me is that it is another

distraction away from progress. That is the way that I see it, and

possibly in my naive way, can assure you all, I did not know

about these letters. I suffer with Stephen every day of our lives.

Because of what the IRA did. They robbed him of his father, brutally.

And we need justice. I would like to ask,, Sinn Fein have been saying for

a while but this process was open and transparent. If it was open and

transparent, why was it not discussed with Haass? Why did he not

know anything about it when he was there to discuss dealing with the

past and victims two it has got to the stage from innocent victims that

they are feeling that they are an embarrassment to the budget process.

It is a disgrace. Conor Murphy, can you address that? Why was it not

brought up? Haass was an open process. As far as we were

concerned, the process run its course. It was apparent and on the

agenda since 2001 or before that, and innocent victims, there are

many. Many victims. I would be concerned about this attempt to

categorise people as innocent or not innocent but there are people who

were annoyed about this and they are entitled to be annoyed if that is

how they feel. But there are many others who have never had the chance

to have any enquiry into their loved ones. There are no police who are on

the run, because when they were involved in killing people on the

nationalistic unity, they were often rewarded or promoted for that. There

are many victims in this and my final point, and during the first

question, was that we need to get back to what's Haass was discussing,

a process by which we deal of the legacy -- deal with the legacy

issues of the past, the first of all the victims. To go back to the

original point, and we re-establish confidence? The issue has been that

we keep asking questions of victims, what do you want, what do we need to

do to meet your needs? We get the answer and then we ignore the answer

and we ask again. That is not good enough. Between the needs assessment

carried out by the victims commission and the great and ongoing

work being done by the Forum for victims and survivors, the Haass

process, we keep asking the questions and we keep getting the

same answers. And yet we do not deliver. The ball is in your Court

and that of your colleagues. To say the DUP was not combernd a

scheme like this is as ridiculous as it is to listen to Sinn Fein that

they feel sorry for victims. The republican movements responsible for

making more victims in Northern Ireland than any other organisation.

It's ridiculous to suggest other things. It was a secret and

invisible process at the request of Gerry Adams. The real people to be

indicted are Blair and his sidekick Powell. Powell, to show you the

decrepes and deceit, Powell in his biography admitted he drafted IRA

communiques that were signed P O'Neill. He drafted them for the

IRA. They should be in the dock. Thank you very much, indeed. We will

have to move on. Vital topic though it is. Our next question. Josh is a

student from Armagh. Josh. Are the consequences of not passing the

Welfare Reform Bill a clear sign that Stormont has failed to deliver

once again? Danny Alexander confirmed they will lose ?100

million because of the failure to approve welfare reforms.

Conor Murphy, you are the party which is stalling this in the

Assembly. Why? At what cost? Well, the cost, if this is implement is

?450 million to our economy. That is the loss you need to set against

what the figures that have been banded about by Simon and others

from the Treasury. We set our face against - Can I interrupt. Mr

McCausland say it's not a loss. It's not money in people's pockets. It's

a reassessment of money that would come to them. To say it's a ?450

million loss is not accurate, he would say. You are happy to quote

the number of operations that would be lost and hip replacements. I said

Simon Hamilton said that. OK. The reality is, there will be a loss. If

people lose benefits, that is money people are currently spending. If

they lose benefits, that is a loss to the spending power in this

economy. This is a Tory ideology which is to attack the most

vulnerable in society to set their face against any hope or chance for

those people, not only people on benefits, for the working poor as

well. We have pledged to resist that. We have asked the DUP to stand

with us. They expressed themselves as unhappy. They voted against some

of that legislation in Westminster. They voted for the benefit cap last

week in Westminster. We have said to them, stand with us and stand

against what the Treasury are trying to impose. Will rise from ?5.5

billion in 2012 to ?6. 3 billion. That is not a cut, that is an

increase. People will lose. ?450 million is going out of our benefit.

People will lose and force into a dire situation than they are. We

have a responsibility as elected represent toifs try and protect the

vulnerable in our society. We had some of those agreements with the

DUP in relation to issues like water charges. When I was Minister for

Regional Development I was told by Sam #yi8 Wilson and civil servants I

would bankrupt the Executive ifive if I didn't bring in water charges.

Five years later the Executive are spending more money than ever. We

have the responsibility to stand up for the most vulnerable people in

our society and protect them. We are not county treasurers for the

Treasury over here or for the British government who disperse the

money as they see fit. We are elected here, elected on programmes

and responsibility to stand up for the people who elect us. Didn't

agree with much of that? The basic principle is this. The citizens of

Northern Ireland are citizens of the United Kingdom. There is a policy

for the whole of the United Kingdom in order to recover from the dire

financial situation that was left by Labour. To cut back on benefits

across theual kingdom. What is the Treasury is saying, you cannot have

the people on the mainland paying for enhanced benefits for the

citizens of Northern Ireland. They just won't do it. It's cloud cuckoo

land to think that they will ever agree to the people of Northern

Ireland having greater benefits than their fellow citizens on the

mainland. There is no doubt what ever it will cost up to ?250 million

when the Treasury reclaims the money. They will. The second thing

is, there are 1,500 jobs in the infrastructure of paying out

benefits and assessing them. Those people in those jobs also work for

part of the United Kingdom. If we do not accept the overall reforms,

those people will lose their jobs. That's for sure. Secondly, as far as

the necessary money to be invest in order to have a separate system,

welfare system, will run into millions. The argument that they are

losing ?450,000, Northern Ireland is losing ?450,000 is a joke. Patricia

MacBride, Mr McCause lands said incentives should be a springboard

not a trap. Is that what these reforms are trying to - has Stormont

failed to deliver? Well, I think, you know, I'm in favour of welfare

reform. I tell you the reform I'm in favour of. Why don't we spend the

same amount of resources in trying to reach out to those people who are

entitled to the hundreds of millions of benefits every year that go

unclaimed. Why don't we do - let's do away with Working Tax Credit.

Everybody should be earning a living wage where the Government doesn't

have to bring them up to a minimum living standard. Don't have that.

The type of welfare reform we need to look at. To provide the jobs and

employment before you can do that? You get the big corporations to pay

the taxes they should rightfully be telling that the domestic businesses

are paying. Simple mathematics. This is not rocket science, it's back of

the envelope stuff. You get that revenue in from the people who

should be paying the taxes and give it those in need. That is the

welfare we form you need to do here. Are we pushing ourselves down a

route following legislation in Westminster that is not fit for

purpose. It won't ever get enacted in Westminster the way things are

going at the moment. I think we need to look - It's already enacted of

course. That's the problem for Stormont. It's already enacted. We

are either United Kingdom citizens or not. Mark, you were born in

Bangor you spent your working life in Manchester. When you look at

here, we have one in ten of working-age adults on Incapacity

Benefit, one in ten of working-age adults on DLA. Way higher, almost

twice the DLA percentage than the UK average, what do you think? I'd like

to know why. I have lots of friends who studied here. They work in

hospitals and GP practices and I've asked a few of them why that is. One

of my GP friends also told me that in Northern Ireland there is a

higher percentage of people on sedatives which he felt was possibly

hangover from the troubl past. There are unique problems associated with

Northern Ireland. I have to agree with what Patricia has said. Why are

we looking to claw money back from the people who have the least.

It's... You know, we get into this financial situation through the over

spend of big businesses and banks. Yet, the people who have the least

are being asked to pay for it when yet huge, huge bills of tax are not

being paid. I'm seeing it on the frontline. I moved from A to GP.

I'm seeing vulnerable people coming in, having their benefits cut,

having their benefits reduced. How low can they go? They can't go any

further. The gentleman in the row. Sir, I'm totally at the end of my

rope about us the, the working-class people, being held responsible for

the greedy fat cat bankers and the money they sfroel our economy and

the money that the Government has put in to raise them up while they

are still getting multi-billion pound bonuses across the board. We

are being told day in and day outousous is good for everybody

except for those people. I find it very hard every day to bring home

money to feed my wife and my kids and I'm sure serve the same way. To

be told we have to take our own part in austerity. It's all the same

thing. Would you like to see Stormont make it happen? You

wouldn't tliebg see that. They have to do something, that is the point?

If Stormont would stop arguing against each other and working

together on the facts, then we will be able to get something down in

this country. All right, lady in the back row. I know people... I know

some people are worried about the cost of the health service if

welfare reform is not implemented. I would be worried to the cost to

society in general if it is implemented for fact. We are looking

at a budget where 26% of it is spend keeping people in employment with

working tax credits. In some cases the profit margins those companies

are working away with is laughable. There are 2.6% spent on those

getting unemployment-related benefits we need to look at why we

have a welfare system. Our Government is failing to deliver.

The gentleman here. Lady in my cab was a family support worker. She was

getting paid off on Friday night. There were 48 of them going. I said,

surely that will be on the news. 50 people were getting paid off. She

said, no, you will never hear about it on the news. I said, I can't

understand that. The cuts are happening now under stealth, is this

is what is happening? We are not hearing about these cuts? 48. We

heard about it now. If they are watching this programme. We will

maybe follow that up. You said that the bedroom tax would hit Northern

Ireland disproportionately hard. You are pressing everyone to get on with

implementing it? Can I go back a little bit. Over this decade. To the

end of 2020, welfare expenditure in Northern Ireland will increase by

?1.4 billion. Whenever I hear people say we should simply trapes off to

Downing Street, bang on the door of Number Eleven and ask the Chancellor

to give us more money to pay for this and that, as part of the United

Kingdom we are getting ?10 billion from Westminster every single year

to keep this place running. And, look, there are lots of bits

including the bedroom tax about the Welfare Reform Bill I'm not overly

enamored with. That is why we did try to work together. We had

agreement with Sinn Fein a year ago, the Deputy First Minister agreed to

a deal that would see the bedroom tax actually not affect people here

in Northern Ireland. We had that agreed. We had other flexibilities

and exemptions to the Welfare Reform Bill that meant people in Northern

Ireland would benefit in a way that their counterparts in England,

Scotland and Wales wouldn't benefit from. Because of an utter lack of

leadership from Sinn Fein on this issue. We are facing a situation

where very vulnerable people in Northern Ireland are going to

suffer. If we have to take the reductions of ?100 million next

year, rising and rising all the time to the point where over the next

five years - Still less than the ?400 million that would go at one

fell swoop if you enacts ed. -- enacted the welfare reforms. It goes

up and now. The quantum it goes up will be less with welfare reform

rather than without. If this is impacting in terms of cuts of some

?70 million next year to our health budget, that isn't hip operations or

knee operations or care or hours in nursing homes for elderly people.

Vulnerable people, people who are vulnerable will suffer. People who

aren't vulnerable will be made vulnerable. You have been challenged

to put on paper what it is you would agree to. What would you agree to?

They have already agreed. No we haven't. Let him answer. Can I make

this point. Simon challenged me. The DUP told the British Government they

are satisfied with what you got. How do you negotiate with someone who

you told you are stats satisfied with what you have got. We said

there is work to be done. What? Hurry along, time is short. You give

plenty of time to others. The bedroom tax issue isn't resolved.

There is a relief on the bedroom tax which we are paying out of the

executive budget for people currently on it, not for people who

may end up on it. It's not resolved. We want to get the best deal. The

best way to do that is by standing together not by playing the blame

game until relation to that. That is your second answer. Everyone else

had one. No, we will move on. We never solve any of these, but we do

raise them. Our next question: When will Northern Ireland stop

moving into the dark ages when it comes to the issues that are having

an impact on the gay community? I assumed that uppermost in Europe

nine will be the fact that same-sex marriage became legal in England and

Wales on Friday. Scotland are expecting their first marriage later

in the year but no plans in Northern Ireland. Is that the dark ages?

Using language like the dark ages is not particularly helpful. This is an

issue which is the responsibility of the assembly. The assembly has

spoken on this issue twice. The second time they took a decision on

this issue, the majority were against introducing same-sex

marriage. Have you not twice tabled a petition of concern? No. Votes

were not blocked. The petition of concern went down. It was not

necessary in the end because a majority rejected the proposals that

were put forward. To go back to the point about the dark ages, think we

need to tone down the language. We need to be respectful of

everybody's views. We need to do except that there are good people

who disagree on this thing. -- we need to accept. I was brought up

to... Let me stop you there because Ian Paisley Junior talked about

being proposed by homosexuality. Iris Robinson said it was an

abomination. Another member said the same, and he said his words were

taken out of context. You have selected a couple of colleagues of

mine. There could be other views. Reducing your colleagues. There are

other people on the other side of the argument to have used equally

inflammatory language from time to time. What is your belief? The macro

I oppose the introduction of same-sex marriage in Northern

Ireland. I have spoken publicly on that. I was brought up to understand

that tolerance was about accepting that other people had different

views to you but accepting that they have those different views. What

seems to be the case now in Northern Ireland as it is across the world is

that if you do not... If you do not actually accept other people's views

then you are intolerant. That is... Nobody is asking you to actually

have a gay marriage. It is not compulsory! Let those who want to do

it get on with it. Idea say my wife would have something to say about

it. I do not think even those comments are particularly helpful. I

think we have two except... We have to define tolerance. People choose

different lifestyles. They want to do things differently. I am in

accepting of people and their rights to choose whatever lifestyle they

want. Think people should be free from prejudice, and I think we

should also bear in mind that there are people who take for many

reasons, an opposing view. And we should be respectful of that fact.

These are not... So respectful but he will stop same-sex marriage? It

is the democratic right of the assembly to take that position. I

hope we're not saying that we should remove that democratic right from

our assembly? Mark? With Northern Ireland being part of the UK, why

not be with the UK on this point? I don't see what the issue is.

Understand from a religious background that there are teachings

in what you choose to read about marriage and this that and the

other. In the Bible, there are different versions of marriage.

Solomon had hundreds of wives, as did David. And actually gay marriage

was not outlawed until 1971. These issues... I'm sure there are people

in the audience who will give us biblical quotes. The thing about

democracy, the rough guess is that one in ten people are homosexual.

You cannot have a democratic vote in that sense. If the majority said,

then you cannot have your way. It is not a minority issue that do not see

how that application of the democratic process can apply in this

case when generally, I'd just do not see what is wrong with that. Why do

not see what the big deal is. You do not have to get married to a man if

you do not want to. Simply, it is up rights issue. Simon and the people

who've bought this issue being progressed say that people can have

a lifestyle they choose, but they cannot have the rights that other

people have stop it cannot have the legal protection of a marriage. So

if... That is not accurate. It is not true. Then why deny it? The

human rights commission, which my party are not used to courting, says

that there is no human rights issue. They say that nobody has been denied

rights in Northern Ireland. The do not have a legal marriage rights.

They can have a civil union, but in that case, why does everybody else

not have a civil union? Let everyone else have one. It is an equality

issue. Back to the previous issue, part of the lack of confidence in

the health service is that the Health Minister chooses to pursue

these issues rather than looking at the health service. Gay blood

donation issues, these are the issues he is fixated on, rather than

looking after A The DUP has a difficulty with this rights issue.

It should be respected. It is not enough to respect people's lifestyle

choices and then deny them rights. I had never seen the real difference

between same-sex marriage and a civil partnership. Basically, they

are the same. But think the point is in a clueless society, gay people

wanted the right to have a marriage. What ever that may be defined as, so

that they may be equal with heterosexuals who can have that

marriage. Earlier on, on the welfare debate, I argued that if you were a

member of the United Kingdom, a citizen of the United Kingdom, you

have the ups and downs. By belonging to the United Kingdom. The mainland

United Kingdom has decided that the should be same-sex marriage. I have

great difficulty being a plug a list, and believing that there are

many things which I'd disagree with, but I am not prepared to put

them down. If you do not believe in gay marriage, then do not have a gay

marriage. There are some homosexuals who are against this argument. But

the basic thing is, what does it matter what these people do if they

are not breaking the law? And A+ for gay marriage, it has been argued

with some force that the effect of having a gay marriage gives a

stability and an authenticity to the relationship which tends to make it

longer and more permanent. We need to remember that this is an old

issue. We have homosexuality, who are in a minority, try to enforce

their will on the majority in this country. The government is enforcing

it. As a young Christian, I often find that when we speak out for the

biblical stance on marriage, we are branded as bigots or as fascists.

And we cannot stand up for our beliefs because we are persecuted

and victimised. The lady here. I would like to say that whenever two

people decide they want to be married, whether they are of the

same sex or different sex, they do not do that for a political reason

or a religious reason. They do that because they are in love. Who are

politicians to stand in the way of that? I think the issue is much

bigger than the issue of gay marriage itself. It goes to the

issue that Conor raised around equal rights and adoption. This is an

equality issue. The reality is that the assembly, if you will, needs to

examine its consciousness. They need to say, how is it that if I'd give

equal rights to someone else, it demeans mine? It does not do that.

We need to look at ways that we can ensure that we address all minority

rights. The gentleman here spoke about homosexual amenities being a

minority. So are survivors of the conflict and people with

disabilities but we try to protect their rights and promote them. We

have the same duty of care to everybody, to every citizen,

regardless of how they identify themselves. We must move on. The

next question is from Charlotte O'Hara, a music teacher from County

Antrim. Would a visit from the Pope to Belfast show how far we have

progressed since the Good Friday agreement? I can tell you expose a

plea that Belfast City Council voted 34-0 in favour of inviting the book

to Belfast if he accepts the invitation. Unionists abstained in

the vote and the motion said that Belfast should welcome the Pope as a

man of peace, reconciliation and faith. What do you think, Bob

McCartney? Frankly, it is a good idea. If the Pope wants to visit,

why shouldn't he? In Northern Ireland, we suffer from the residue

of our past, including things like a 1912 home rule is Rome rule thing.

There was a lot of substance to that argument in 1912. But it does not

exist in any significant or substantial way at present. The

whole political landscape, the religious landscape has changed. And

I believe we should mirror that. Patricia? The interesting thing

about an invitation being accepted would be actually looking at the

number of MLAs and City Council officials who would be lining up for

a selfie with him, because that appears to be one of the key things

that we see across Twitter and the internet. I think we could see an

ever delicate that. It is utterly wonderful. I think the fact that

there is a substantial catholic community here and people who have

various degrees of compliance with their faith and as he runs to the

faith, but I think for that community, it would be a

reinforcement of the importance of their faith, especially when you

look at the fact that the previous papal visit to Ireland in 1979, the

visit to Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital, was cancelled all stop and

that was held instead elsewhere. For the Catholic community, it could be

a positive thing. Anything that creates cohesion is positive. Would

it have shown more evidence of progress if the Unionists had been

able to say, yes, bring it on? I think the new Pope is an impressive

character. I think he is a breath of fresh air in a traditionally stuffy

office. There's a bit of an issue with were at the invitation has come

from. It wasn't invitation from the Irish Senate to come to Northern

Ireland. -- it was an invitation. It is like me inviting everybody back

to your house later on for a party. Not a bad idea! There seems to be

some support for that. I think that we have made tremendous progress in

Northern Ireland over the last few years and whilst we disagree on many

things and will have those stats openly, we have made progress and we

are further on today and we were ten or 20 years ago. Think we should

celebrate that and I think if you... I think it was Senator David

Norris who invited Pope Francis to visit Ireland, not Northern Ireland.

The macro probably for electoral purposes. So we should be accurate

in that. Would you go to see him? To finish my point, I think we have

made poor this progress. -- tremendous progress. I think the way

we have dealt with the commemorations of a -- and centenary

is, that has shown the progress we have made. We have to be sensitive

to the sensitivities that are still out there. We do not want to do

anything that would see us step backwards and progress in terms of

the progress we have made. But it is something that will have to be

considered. He may have been invited but I'm not sure if he has accepted

the invitation. Would you be posing for a selfie? I would probably put

my thumb over the lens and ruin it! The Ulster Unionist councillor said

he was not against the Pope but there was hatred, mistrust and

unrest. He said at this moment in time, he should not go to Belfast.

Is that a reasonable view? Not really. Those people accept that it

was unreasonable. Belfast City Council took the decision, a good

decision. Even those who did not bring themselves to support, it was

a good decision by all involved not to oppose it. It is all about taking

steps. It is not just about the Catholic community although I'm

interested in David Norris, the conservative Catholic vote for the

Senate. Do not think it is going to work for him. This is not just about

the Catholic unity. It is about a general feeling that steps can be

taken. Martin McGuinness met with the Queen and the Pope was invited

to Belfast. Think it is a sign... Only after Sinn Fein totally

misjudged the public mood around the Queen's visit. That is your mood. --

that is your judgement. The two checked shirts. I think it is great

that the papal visit has been embraced by the council this evening

but I think it is worrying that Unionists were not fully embracing

of the visit in itself. I think it is a mark of reconciliation that the

papal visit can be a success but can it be a success? The macro I think

it is good that the new Pope has been able to sort out the

paedophiles. I would welcome him. But the problem with him coming here

is that St Patrick's Day, when you look at that, able from the

Protestant immunity going to see the Pope, there is too much trouble

brought into the streets. Celebrating the patron saint of the

island. Families come, and some of them with cohesion. So you would be

with Jim Rogers that there is too much mistrust? Yes. I think I would

question the motives of the Unionists are stealing from the

vote. Remember, this is an election year so they do not want to distance

themselves from the community. They might be privately embracing it but

not in public. The gentleman at the front he met I have no problem with

the Pope coming here but remember the G8 Summit. Who would pick up the

bill? I would think it would be astronomical compared to the G8

Summit? That is another question we will not get tonight but Mark, your

views? Everything that happens in Northern Ireland has symbolism

attached to it. It is a positive step, yes. It reflects tolerance and

progress. Of course, and do not think everybody will be holding up

their hands and the abstention this evening has reflected that. Even if

it is a little bit of progress, it is still progress. I'd macro and

would you go for a selfie? I am friends with everybody! That is why

we invited you here. That is the other side of the coin. Charlotte,

bodies think? -- what do you think? It is important to say that it would

not just be for the catholic amenity. It is sad that the

Unionists abstained and I think that the fact that the majority in

Belfast council have voted for it is a good sign. And you very much,

Charlotte O'Hara from County Antrim. And we have other questions but as

always, we have run out of time. We must leave it there for this

edition. Thank you to our panellists and to our studio audience. And of

course to you at home. Continue the debate with the hashtag on the

screen now Mobot from the team, until next time, goodbye. -- but

from the team.