Browse content similar to Not Going Away. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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This programme contains scenes of Repetitive Flashing Images | 0:00:02 | 0:00:09 | |
From selling peace, to a police cell - | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
Gerry Adams's arrest in connection with IRA membership | 0:00:19 | 0:00:22 | |
and the murder of Jean McConville | 0:00:22 | 0:00:24 | |
made headlines across the world. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
In Northern Ireland, police are questioning Gerry Adams. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
Gerry Adams is one of the most, if not THE most, | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
powerful Catholic politician in Northern Ireland. | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
The arrest of Adams is an acutely sensitive matter. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
The dramatic arrest took Irish America by surprise. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:41 | |
I have lived and worked as a journalist here for ten years | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
and there has been no story from Northern Ireland | 0:00:44 | 0:00:47 | |
that comes remotely close to this scale. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:49 | |
We ain't going away, you know! | 0:00:49 | 0:00:51 | |
Republican anger has been loud and clear - | 0:00:53 | 0:00:56 | |
their dissatisfaction writ large | 0:00:56 | 0:00:59 | |
as their leader languished in a holding cell. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:03 | |
I was allowed in to see Mr Adams. | 0:01:03 | 0:01:04 | |
He believes that the timing of this was political, | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
that the extension of it was political. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:10 | |
He's worried about the damage it might be doing | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
to the image of policing, as well. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:15 | |
What I'm saying is, folks, | 0:01:15 | 0:01:17 | |
is that the situation we find ourselves in at the minute | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
is a very, very, VERY serious situation indeed. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
A leading Republican facing a lengthy police interrogation, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:28 | |
his supporters attending rallies on the Falls Road, | 0:01:28 | 0:01:31 | |
and his colleagues claiming the existence | 0:01:31 | 0:01:33 | |
of a dark cabal within the police. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:36 | |
People are very, very angry and very suspicious about this whole process. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
It all began with an academic oral history project | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
to record the reality of a conflict. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
Has it now started to threaten the institutions | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
which have delivered peace? | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
I ultimately was involved in a project which left me | 0:01:51 | 0:01:55 | |
unable to protect my sources | 0:01:55 | 0:02:00 | |
from the wrath and the vindictiveness of the British authorities. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:05 | |
I regret it because many people have been arrested, | 0:02:05 | 0:02:08 | |
including Mr Adams. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:09 | |
Tonight on Spotlight, | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
how an academic oral history project | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
shattered the IRA's code of silence | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
and what it could still mean for the political process here. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
As the world waited to see if Gerry Adams would be charged, | 0:02:23 | 0:02:27 | |
this man, Anthony McIntyre, was at the eye of a storm, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:31 | |
a storm that has been brewing | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
ever since the controversial interviews he conducted | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
with former IRA members and others for an academic research project | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
came into the hands of the PSNI. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:43 | |
Even though Gerry Adams has now been released, | 0:02:43 | 0:02:47 | |
Anthony McIntyre says he's horrified at what's happened. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
I was dismayed when Gerry Adams was arrested, | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
but I have been dismayed when everybody was arrested. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
You feel that awful sensation in the pit of your stomach. | 0:02:58 | 0:03:00 | |
How do you feel when you see the information you gathered, | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
you thought was confidential, | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
is now being used potentially to prosecute people? | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
Shafted, screwed. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:13 | |
I feel very bad about it | 0:03:13 | 0:03:15 | |
and it's something I will have to live with for the rest of my days. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
It all began over a dinner at Deane's Restaurant in Belfast | 0:03:21 | 0:03:25 | |
in the year 2000. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:26 | |
A Boston College representative met McIntyre | 0:03:26 | 0:03:29 | |
and journalist Ed Moloney to discuss the feasibility | 0:03:29 | 0:03:32 | |
of an oral history project recording the experiences | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
of former participants in The Troubles. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:38 | |
As a former IRA man himself, | 0:03:38 | 0:03:40 | |
McIntyre was seen as being ideally placed | 0:03:40 | 0:03:43 | |
to conduct interviews with people who had once been his comrades. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
But he says that he and Ed Moloney immediately saw an issue | 0:03:47 | 0:03:51 | |
with the project that would have to be overcome. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
We told him it would have to be absolute guarantees, | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
no maybes or ifs, | 0:03:57 | 0:03:59 | |
that there would have to be a firewall | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
against any access by the British State. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:06 | |
Anthony McIntyre says that when he began interviewing a year later, | 0:04:06 | 0:04:10 | |
he was under the impression that Boston College | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
had taken legal advice, and that such a guarantee was in place. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
Spotlight has also spoken to Ed Moloney. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
His belief that Boston College had carried out legal checks | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
is based partly on this e-mail exchange between Moloney | 0:04:25 | 0:04:29 | |
and a Boston College representative, in which Moloney suggests | 0:04:29 | 0:04:32 | |
that the agreements with interviewees be referred | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
to the university's lawyers. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:37 | |
Ed Moloney says he was told in a subsequent phone call | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
that this had been done. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:42 | |
In fact, under American law, it would be impossible | 0:04:42 | 0:04:45 | |
to guarantee protection of the tapes. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
Niall Stanage is an Irish journalist based in Washington. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
There have been at least two Supreme Court cases in this country, | 0:04:52 | 0:04:56 | |
where the court has found that the State or the authorities | 0:04:56 | 0:05:01 | |
can have legitimate reasons to ask reporters or researchers | 0:05:01 | 0:05:08 | |
to break promises of confidentiality. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
And so there is not some 100% guarantee, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
despite what people sometimes think, | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
that those promises can be kept | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
under absolutely all possible circumstances. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
But Boston College says no guarantee was ever given to McIntyre, | 0:05:23 | 0:05:26 | |
or the project director, Ed Moloney. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
I spoke to Jack Dunn, a spokesman for the college. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
He didn't want to speak on camera, | 0:05:36 | 0:05:38 | |
but he did agree to a phone interview. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
Is it the case, Mr Dunn, that Ed Moloney and Anthony McIntyre | 0:05:41 | 0:05:46 | |
were given a guarantee by Boston College | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
that the interviews would be protected, would be confidential | 0:05:50 | 0:05:54 | |
and would be legally fireproofed? | 0:05:54 | 0:05:57 | |
Both Anthony McIntyre and Ed Moloney fiercely dispute this claim. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:25 | |
Ed Moloney accepts that his own contract for the work | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
contained the caveat about American law. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:31 | |
But both McIntyre and Moloney say that, by the time they were | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
asking interviewees to sign consent forms, | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
they believed that there were no legal caveats, | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
and that the risk had been dealt with by the College's lawyers. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
So, on the consent forms that these people signed, | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
what guarantees did they give the people who took part? | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
That these would remain confidential until after their death, | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
that the ultimate control of release would lie with me, | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
and me being the person that done the interview, | 0:06:55 | 0:06:57 | |
give the interview, the interviewee, that's what it stated. | 0:06:57 | 0:07:01 | |
So, you were given guarantees | 0:07:01 | 0:07:02 | |
that this information would be confidential? | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
They were quite insistent about this all of the time. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:08 | |
Boston College were very insistent. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
It was metaphorically suicidal for me | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
to have proceeded with a project | 0:07:12 | 0:07:15 | |
that I did not understand was totally protected. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
It would have been absolute madness. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
The subjects were promised by Anthony McIntyre | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
that their interviews would only be released after their deaths, | 0:07:26 | 0:07:30 | |
and they signed forms to that effect. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
26 Republicans were interviewed along with 14 UVF members | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
and one person described as coming from law enforcement. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:41 | |
McIntyre hasn't revealed the identities of anyone he interviewed. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:51 | |
But for the first time, he has admitted that he too | 0:07:53 | 0:07:55 | |
has been interviewed as part of the project, | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
discussing his own IRA career. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
I was interviewed by an academic of equivalent standing | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
and my interviews are in Boston College too. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
So, you were one of the people interviewed for this project? | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
I am. Well, not the tapes that have been handed over, | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
but I am in the archive, I am one of the people who was interviewed, yes. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:20 | |
So, there is a tape there, there is material in the archive | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
relating to your testimony about your own IRA career? | 0:08:23 | 0:08:28 | |
I am on tape. I am saying no more. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
I won't go into any detail or give any inclination, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:33 | |
but I exposed myself to the exact same risks | 0:08:33 | 0:08:35 | |
as anybody else was exposed to. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:37 | |
I did not lead people into a project | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
that I wasn't prepared to take the same degree of exposure. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:44 | |
Why would I put my own interviews in Boston College | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
if I thought the police were going to maybe, at some point, | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
look at them for to prosecute me? | 0:08:49 | 0:08:50 | |
Self interest alone would have prevented me. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:52 | |
The interviews McIntyre conducted with others | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
were frank, detailed, and, in some cases, | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
discussed particular events. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:01 | |
One of those events was the 1972 murder of Jean McConville - | 0:09:01 | 0:09:06 | |
something that has come to haunt Republicans. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:08 | |
I think you would have to have a heart of stone to not have sympathy. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
For anyone from a Republican perspective, | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
it's something that shames us all. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
I was born after Jean McConville was killed. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
People can, in a sense, understand that, during wars, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:30 | |
terrible things happen and innocents are killed. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
But I find it shameful that Republicans | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
were engaged in that activity of disappearing | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
and burying people without informing their family. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
The reason that Jean McConville featured so much was that | 0:09:43 | 0:09:46 | |
during discussions with people, many people, | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
we would have discussed that the IRA had a very dark side to it, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
and that dark side manifested itself in war crimes. | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
And Jean McConville was a war crime. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
There is simply no getting away from it. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
The secret grave is the universal calling card of the war criminal. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
But it wasn't just Anthony McIntyre who was | 0:10:07 | 0:10:09 | |
interested in the Jean McConville murder. | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
So too were the PSNI. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:15 | |
Her body had been discovered in 2003 on a beach in County Louth. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:19 | |
In some of the interviews he conducted, | 0:10:20 | 0:10:22 | |
Anthony McIntyre was uncovering information that appeared | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
to be pertinent to that investigation. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:27 | |
One of those interviews was with veteran Republican Brendan Hughes, | 0:10:30 | 0:10:34 | |
who told McIntyre that the man who ordered the killing was Gerry Adams. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:39 | |
Even though the existence of the Boston College Archive | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
was becoming more widely known, | 0:11:20 | 0:11:22 | |
it wasn't until the publication of a book by Ed Moloney in 2010, | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
featuring the testimony of Brendan Hughes, | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
that it gained broader attention. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
This is the book that was published after his death | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
based on the transcripts of his interviews. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
And the preface of the book says that it represents | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
the "inaugural volume of a planned series of publications | 0:11:40 | 0:11:44 | |
"drawn from the Boston College Oral History Archive." | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
So, if the PSNI didn't know that there was an archive out there | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
with potentially relevant information | 0:11:51 | 0:11:53 | |
into the murder of Jean McConville, | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
they certainly knew it now. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
The PSNI confirmed this | 0:11:58 | 0:11:59 | |
in a statement to Spotlight earlier today. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
They said... | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
Anthony McIntyre now feels the book should not have been published. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
I think it was a mistake to publish the book. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
Yes, in retrospect, I do, | 0:12:20 | 0:12:22 | |
but, at the time, I had given guarantees | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
to Brendan Hughes, who wanted his material published earlier. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
I gave guarantees to Brendan that... | 0:12:27 | 0:12:29 | |
I had persuaded him not to publish his stuff, | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
I told him it would endanger things. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:33 | |
But, after his death, which he had asked me about, | 0:12:33 | 0:12:36 | |
would it be published? And I said, "Yes, we will do it." | 0:12:36 | 0:12:39 | |
In May 2011, the PSNI began legal action | 0:12:41 | 0:12:45 | |
to access the Boston College Project archive. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:48 | |
A subpoena was sent to the college. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:50 | |
When you first heard that the PSNI was going after your material, | 0:12:50 | 0:12:56 | |
the material in the Boston College Archives, | 0:12:56 | 0:12:58 | |
what was your reaction? | 0:12:58 | 0:13:00 | |
Horror. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:02 | |
I immediately got onto Ed Moloney. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
Well, he informed me and I said, | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
"How can this happen? How can it happen?" | 0:13:06 | 0:13:08 | |
It now appears that Boston College | 0:13:11 | 0:13:13 | |
had ASSUMED that no outside authorities | 0:13:13 | 0:13:15 | |
would attempt to access the material | 0:13:15 | 0:13:17 | |
through a legal challenge - | 0:13:17 | 0:13:19 | |
a view they say was shared by Moloney and McIntyre. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
Going back to the beginning of this project, what legal advice, | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
if any, did Boston College take at the time | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
about the legal status of these interviews | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
once they had been gathered? | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
So, there was a general presumption that the PSNI | 0:13:46 | 0:13:52 | |
or any authorities like that wouldn't go after this material, | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
but that presumption turned out to be wrong? | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
That would turn out to be a devastating miscalculation. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
In January 2012, Judge William G Young | 0:14:03 | 0:14:07 | |
of the Boston District Court | 0:14:07 | 0:14:09 | |
ruled that all material relating to the McConville case | 0:14:09 | 0:14:12 | |
should be handed over, | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
specifically interviews with former IRA member | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
Dolours Price and 85 other interviews | 0:14:17 | 0:14:20 | |
done with seven former IRA members. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:23 | |
On appeal, the number of tapes released was scaled back to 11. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
Amongst them, the interviews with Dolours Price. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:30 | |
This is the US court judgment which led to the tapes being released. | 0:14:32 | 0:14:37 | |
Now, it says that most of those tapes are only indirectly relevant, | 0:14:37 | 0:14:41 | |
in which the McConville case is mentioned in passing, | 0:14:41 | 0:14:44 | |
or as hearsay by people who were not directly involved. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:48 | |
But one interview is a first-hand account | 0:14:48 | 0:14:50 | |
of what occurred that day in 1972. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:53 | |
Now, taken together, it's this material | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
which is thought to have led to several arrests recently | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
in connection with the Jean McConville murder, | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
including that of Gerry Adams. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:04 | |
My research was never, ever designed or conducted | 0:15:04 | 0:15:09 | |
for the purpose of having anybody arrested - | 0:15:09 | 0:15:12 | |
Mr Adams or anybody else - | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
and it is quite clear to me | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
that there is political motivation in this arrest. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
Some of the people who Anthony McIntyre interviewed | 0:15:19 | 0:15:22 | |
are now paying a personal cost | 0:15:22 | 0:15:24 | |
for taking part in the Boston College Project. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
And the issue of his own safety has been raised. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
Do you feel in any sense that your security is under threat? | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
I don't know. I hope not, but I simply have to face it down. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:40 | |
I mean, I would describe my situation | 0:15:40 | 0:15:43 | |
as having been left punch-drunk by everything that has happened, | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
but I'm still on my feet and I am still fighting. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
Sinn Fein believes that the investigation into Gerry Adams, | 0:15:53 | 0:15:57 | |
and the overall decision by the PSNI to access the Boston tapes, | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
is part of an agenda to harm the party. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
At a press conference last Friday, | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
Martin McGuinness spoke of dark forces within the police, | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
and alleged the existence of a small cabal of officers | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
who were out to undermine the Peace Process. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
This is a big situation we have to deal with. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
This is a very serious situation. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
Martin, are the officers involved in this investigation | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
seriously, in your opinion, part of a cabal? | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
Well, the people who directed the officers | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
who are presently involved in the situation | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
at Antrim PSNI Station | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
are, in my view, yes, part of that cabal. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:43 | |
Today, the Chief Constable, Matt Baggott, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:49 | |
reacted to those statements. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:51 | |
He said that the arrest of Gerry Adams | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
was legitimate and lawful, | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
and that Martin McGuinness's claims were unfair and inappropriate. | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
Martin McGuinesss seems to be suggesting almost | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
that there are two police forces. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
There is a police force which supports Sinn Fein, | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
and supports the Peace Process, | 0:17:09 | 0:17:10 | |
and that there is another police force | 0:17:10 | 0:17:13 | |
maybe with links to Unionism or the British Government. | 0:17:13 | 0:17:16 | |
The day after the press conference, the rhetoric was raised again | 0:17:19 | 0:17:23 | |
when the Deputy First Minister stood shoulder to shoulder | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
at a Falls Road rally with veteran Republican Bobby Storey. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
We have a message for the British Government, | 0:17:30 | 0:17:33 | |
for the Irish Government, for the cabal that's out there. | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
We ain't gone away, you know! | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
To many, that was a significant statement. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:43 | |
I think when leading well-known Republicans | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
like Bobby Storey are involved, | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
it shows how seriously Sinn Fein are taking the situation, | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
it shows how angry they are, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:54 | |
but it is also a message to the community that this is something | 0:17:54 | 0:17:57 | |
which they are watching over very closely and feel very avidly about. | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
That they would dare touch our party leader, | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
the leader of Irish Republicanism on this island! | 0:18:03 | 0:18:08 | |
To use symbolic personnel like that | 0:18:08 | 0:18:10 | |
is a way of saying that they mean business. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:13 | |
Gerry Adams was released without charge on Sunday evening. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:18 | |
A Loyalist sit-down protest aimed at stopping his convoy | 0:18:18 | 0:18:22 | |
reflected some of the heightened tensions the episode had caused | 0:18:22 | 0:18:26 | |
across the political divide. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:27 | |
Unionists alleged that Sinn Fein had shown | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
their own dark side during their leader's incarceration, | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
bringing undue pressure to bear to get his release. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
At a press conference, there was an air of triumph. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
Gerry Adams admitted he had been questioned about the Boston tapes, | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
but was dismissive that they could be used | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
to prosecute him or anyone else. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
Gerry, there are a lot of other Boston College tapes out there | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
and there's now legal precedent for them to be used. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
Do you believe, in that context, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:08 | |
there should now be an amnesty for historical crimes | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
for the sake of political stability? | 0:19:12 | 0:19:14 | |
No, we've never called for... | 0:19:14 | 0:19:18 | |
We've never called for an amnesty. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:20 | |
But let me tell you this - | 0:19:20 | 0:19:24 | |
these Boston tapes are an entirely dubious project, | 0:19:24 | 0:19:31 | |
so don't be too mesmerised about the Boston tapes | 0:19:31 | 0:19:36 | |
as being an evidential basis of any kind against anybody | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
by disgruntled anti-Peace Process individuals | 0:19:40 | 0:19:46 | |
who represent no-one whatsoever. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:49 | |
Gerry Adams went on to further question the motivation | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
of the people who ran the project, and the people who took part in it. | 0:19:54 | 0:19:58 | |
Both Moloney and McIntyre are opponents | 0:19:58 | 0:20:01 | |
of the Sinn Fein leadership and our peace strategy | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
and have interviewed former Republicans who are hostile to me | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
and to other Sinn Fein leaders. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
Ed Moloney told Spotlight that the Boston Project | 0:20:12 | 0:20:17 | |
was a legitimate academic endeavour, | 0:20:17 | 0:20:20 | |
and that Gerry Adams naming him and others in the press conference | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
was an exercise in intimidation. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:25 | |
Gerry Adams was keen to point out that he would now be concentrating | 0:20:29 | 0:20:32 | |
on Sinn Fein's election campaigns north and south of the border. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:36 | |
To some observers in the South, | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
where Sinn Fein is gathering momentum, | 0:20:39 | 0:20:41 | |
his release without charge may in fact now lead to a surge in support. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:46 | |
I think the fact that Gerry Adams has not been charged with anything | 0:20:46 | 0:20:51 | |
after being held in custody for four days, | 0:20:51 | 0:20:54 | |
I think Sinn Fein will make capital from that, | 0:20:54 | 0:20:58 | |
and I think that could have a huge bearing | 0:20:58 | 0:21:02 | |
on the outcome of both the local and the European elections | 0:21:02 | 0:21:07 | |
in the Republic, | 0:21:07 | 0:21:09 | |
and that could be manifested both in support for Sinn Fein | 0:21:09 | 0:21:14 | |
and a lessening of support for the Government parties. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
But there's no doubt that north of the border, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
the last few days have re-ignited issues around policing, | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
justice, and the past that many thought had been put to bed. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:32 | |
The big concern for Sinn Fein | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
will be that prosecutions of Republican leaders | 0:21:35 | 0:21:37 | |
for historical crimes are now on the agenda. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:41 | |
They now have problems. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:42 | |
They will not only have the dissidents saying, | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
"Ha! We told you so, we knew this was happening," | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
he'll also have people in his own grassroots who will be going, | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
"Martin, hang on - you're locked at the hip with Peter Robinson, | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
"and they've now got Gerry arrested. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
"Who's next? Gerry Kelly, Danny Morrison... | 0:21:54 | 0:21:56 | |
"yourself, Martin?" | 0:21:56 | 0:21:58 | |
Anthony McIntyre says it's entirely feasible | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
that further Boston College tapes, | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
still in the archive and unseen by the PSNI, | 0:22:05 | 0:22:08 | |
could be used for that purpose. | 0:22:08 | 0:22:10 | |
Do you think it's possible that the PSNI might go after | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
the rest of the material that's still in the Boston College Archive? | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
I don't know, but the British police | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
are vindictive enough to try and continue their raiding for it. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
Isn't it the case, now that there's legal precedent, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
that the PSNI could come back to Boston College | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
when they're investigating further cases and ask for more material? | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
Earlier today, Boston College said that it would now consider | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
handing back the archive to the interviewees | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
who contributed to the project. | 0:22:57 | 0:22:58 | |
It's unclear how the practicalities and legalities of that would work. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:03 | |
But, if it happens, the Boston tapes project | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
will be at an end, its contents lost to history, | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
the price paid for a lack of consensus | 0:23:10 | 0:23:13 | |
on how we deal with Northern Ireland's past. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
But there is another side to this story | 0:23:19 | 0:23:21 | |
which goes beyond the political impact | 0:23:21 | 0:23:23 | |
of which crimes are being pursued, and which are not. | 0:23:23 | 0:23:27 | |
It's a story of human suffering, | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
and the legitimate expectation of victims, | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
like the McConville family, that justice will somehow be done. | 0:23:32 | 0:23:36 | |
The trauma that they suffered, | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
both at the time of their mother's death, and afterwards, | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
was recounted in a documentary last year, | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
in which Darragh MacIntyre put Brendan Hughes's claims | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
about the Jean McConville murder to Gerry Adams. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
Did you give the order for the execution of Jean McConville? | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
No, I had no act or part to play | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
in either the abduction, the killing or the burial | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
of Jean McConville or, indeed, any of these other individuals, | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
and Brendan is telling lies. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
The PSNI now has access to a number of interviews from the archive, | 0:24:14 | 0:24:18 | |
including that of Dolours Price, which discuss the case. | 0:24:18 | 0:24:22 | |
But the fact that Gerry Adams has been released pending a file | 0:24:22 | 0:24:25 | |
being sent to the Public Prosecution Service | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
means there wasn't sufficient evidence to charge him immediately. | 0:24:28 | 0:24:32 | |
Last week, Michael McConville, Jean's son, | 0:24:32 | 0:24:35 | |
said that he knows the names of some of those | 0:24:35 | 0:24:38 | |
who initially abducted his mother, because he saw their faces. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:41 | |
But he said that he's still too frightened to give them to police. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:46 | |
That fear that Michael spoke of back in 1972, | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
that fear is still with the family today. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
There's an extensive network of the McConville clan across Belfast, | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
across the North, but particularly across Belfast. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
Michael McConville was taken away because he was, at the age of 11, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
threatening to go to the police with the information he had. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
He was left in no doubt that he would be hurt | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
or other members of his family would be hurt | 0:25:11 | 0:25:13 | |
if he gave up any information. | 0:25:13 | 0:25:15 | |
Michael's sister, Helen McKendry, | 0:25:18 | 0:25:20 | |
says she is willing to hand over names, | 0:25:20 | 0:25:22 | |
although it's thought that she was not a first-hand eye witness | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
to the abduction. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:27 | |
My understanding is that up to 20 people could have been | 0:25:27 | 0:25:30 | |
involved in the abduction, murder and disappearance of Jean McConville. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:34 | |
There were maybe ten, 15 people gathered in her flat | 0:25:34 | 0:25:38 | |
and around her flat in December '72 to take her away. | 0:25:38 | 0:25:43 | |
Now, those people, we believe, were mostly teenagers, | 0:25:43 | 0:25:47 | |
members of Na Fianna, the junior wing of the IRA. | 0:25:47 | 0:25:51 | |
They would have taken Jean McConville to a house, I'm told, | 0:25:51 | 0:25:53 | |
just off the Falls Road where she was held for five or six hours. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:56 | |
At that point, she would have been handed over | 0:25:56 | 0:25:58 | |
to more senior members of the IRA. | 0:25:58 | 0:26:00 | |
She was held for a total of about six days. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:02 | |
They had to get her across the border, | 0:26:02 | 0:26:04 | |
then they had to get somebody ready to bury her and someone to shoot her. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:08 | |
What's clear is that the McConville case isn't going away any time soon. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:18 | |
The big question raised by the events of the last week, | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
is how we should deal with the past - | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
and, on that, there is no consensus. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
Some feel that the rule of law demands that, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
where there is still evidence, there should be convictions. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:33 | |
Others feel that, for the sake of political stability, | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
there now needs to be a different mechanism | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
by which we can find out the truth about what happened here | 0:26:39 | 0:26:42 | |
during the darkest years of The Troubles. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:44 | |
Of course, it raises the whole question of dealing with the past, | 0:26:44 | 0:26:49 | |
which is the elephant in the room, | 0:26:49 | 0:26:52 | |
and the one that nobody seems to be able to deal with. | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
If, as a result of this, people on both sides of the border | 0:26:56 | 0:27:01 | |
and in Downing Street decide enough is enough | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
and we have to, in some way, find a process | 0:27:04 | 0:27:09 | |
where we can agree a narrative of The Troubles, | 0:27:09 | 0:27:13 | |
maybe this will have been a positive development in the Peace Process. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:18 | |
When you don't have a process of being able to investigate the past | 0:27:18 | 0:27:21 | |
and a machinery for dealing with it, | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
at some point, Loyalists, Unionists, Republicans, Sinn Feiners, | 0:27:24 | 0:27:27 | |
are going to have a knock on the door. | 0:27:27 | 0:27:30 | |
Because, whether it is 10 years later or 20 years later, | 0:27:30 | 0:27:32 | |
a piece of evidence will become available, | 0:27:32 | 0:27:34 | |
someone will leave a note with their will, | 0:27:34 | 0:27:37 | |
and say, "I was involved in this and so were the following people." | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
The original idea behind the Boston College Project, | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
according to those who devised it, | 0:27:44 | 0:27:47 | |
was to access the truth, or at least versions of it, | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
so that, one day, future generations could learn from it. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
Why collect it? What's the point of it? | 0:27:55 | 0:27:58 | |
Why collect knowledge about the Second World War? What's the point? | 0:27:58 | 0:28:01 | |
It's what academics and researchers do. | 0:28:01 | 0:28:03 | |
We tried to enhance public understanding. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:05 | |
In order for people to know WHY something happened, | 0:28:05 | 0:28:08 | |
they need to know WHAT happened. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:10 | |
In Northern Ireland, what happened in the past | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
remains a deeply divisive question now, in the present. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
The tapes that lie in the vaults of Boston College only contain | 0:28:17 | 0:28:20 | |
a fraction of the contested truth about The Troubles, | 0:28:20 | 0:28:24 | |
but it's a history that remains dangerous to this day. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 |