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Van driver Robert Black, one of Britain's infamous child killers, | 0:00:02 | 0:00:06 | |
died in Northern Ireland last month. | 0:00:06 | 0:00:08 | |
He never admitted to any crime, but in these actual police | 0:00:20 | 0:00:24 | |
interviews, he gave away some of his secrets. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:27 | |
Nine-year-old Jennifer Cardy was one of his victims. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:38 | |
The bogeyman was real, and he is out there. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
The scale of Black's offences shocked experts. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:45 | |
His inner world was empty, bleak, | 0:00:45 | 0:00:50 | |
disturbingly frightening. | 0:00:50 | 0:00:52 | |
A sense of massive nothingness. | 0:00:52 | 0:00:57 | |
He was most definitely evil, and he had went down the road of evil | 0:00:57 | 0:01:02 | |
and just gathered evil as he went along. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
Tonight on Spotlight, the police officer, | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
the predator and the end of his criminal career. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:12 | |
He was feeling sorry for himself. It wasn't remorse. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:16 | |
He has never shown remorse for what he did. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:19 | |
The actual voice of serial child killer Robert Black. | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
In these police interviews, | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
he's outlining what he says are his fantasies about abusing young girls. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:57 | |
Black was an opportunistic predator. | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
He snatched schoolgirls off the streets in broad daylight, | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
and drove off as fast as possible. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
It worked for him for 30 years, until one day, he made a mistake. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:21 | |
Black's life of crime came to a sudden halt here in the small | 0:03:35 | 0:03:38 | |
Scottish village of Stow, not far from the border with England. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:43 | |
It was just by sheer chance that he was caught in the act of abducting | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
a six-year-old girl. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:49 | |
A neighbour raised the alarm | 0:04:01 | 0:04:03 | |
when he saw a van driver behaving suspiciously. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
The driver jumped out with a rag in his hand. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:11 | |
And I was aware at this time of a child walking on the pavement towards | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
the back of the van. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:19 | |
And then the next thing he made a slight movement, | 0:04:23 | 0:04:26 | |
and the child seemed to disappear. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:29 | |
Black sped off with the child. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:34 | |
He found a quiet spot, parked up and sexually assaulted her. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
But he made the mistake of returning to the village. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
I turned to look up the road and shouted, "Oh, there's the van!" | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
It is almost on top of us again. | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
By that stage, the police were on the scene. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
So the policeman ran down, in front of the van, | 0:04:57 | 0:04:59 | |
flagged him down, and he swerved across the road, | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
the far kerb, and stopped. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:04 | |
Policeman Ian Turnbull was on duty that day. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
He took us to the exact spot where Black abducted the girl. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
I went to the back of the van, found the back door was locked. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
I actually ran back over to the car | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
and radioed in that we had got him stopped. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
And it was at that stage that my colleague told me | 0:05:26 | 0:05:29 | |
that he thought she was in the back of the van. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:32 | |
Ian Turnbull was about to make the most shocking discovery of his life. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
There was what looked like rags behind the driver's seat. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
And in amongst that was a sleeping bag. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:50 | |
Inside the sleeping bag was his own daughter. | 0:05:52 | 0:05:56 | |
There was tape on her mouth | 0:05:58 | 0:05:59 | |
and her hands were tied with cord or some sort. | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
And, yeah, that was it. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
Black had placed a cushion cover over her head, | 0:06:05 | 0:06:09 | |
and forced her into the sleeping bag. | 0:06:09 | 0:06:12 | |
-She must have been absolutely petrified. -Oh, absolutely terrified. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:18 | |
Can you imagine a six-year-old lassie and a big bloke like | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
Robert Black? That is absolutely petrifying. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
Black was found guilty of abduction and violent sexual assault | 0:06:31 | 0:06:36 | |
and was jailed for life. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:37 | |
It seemed his only regret was being caught. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
Even as he comforted his daughter in the van, | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
Ian Turnbull recognised the man who had abducted her. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
Strange as it may seem, | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
the 1983 incident with Caroline Hogg in Edinburgh, there was a Photofit. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:17 | |
And believe it or not, I actually recognised | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
him as a possibility for fitting that Photofit on that day. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:25 | |
The police image that Ian Turnbull had recognised had been released | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
in connection with the abduction of five-year-old Caroline Hogg. | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
She had disappeared from a playground in Edinburgh | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
seven years previously. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:38 | |
The similarities between her abduction | 0:07:45 | 0:07:47 | |
and the one in Stow sparked widespread police interest. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:51 | |
Robert Black was now the focus of attention of a total of seven | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
police forces... | 0:07:55 | 0:07:57 | |
looking at unsolved abductions and murders going back 20 years. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:03 | |
And it soon became clear that Black was the chief suspect. | 0:08:03 | 0:08:07 | |
He was tried for the murders of Caroline Hogg | 0:08:09 | 0:08:12 | |
and two other girls, Susan Maxwell and Sarah Harper. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
A 45-year-old man has been charged with murdering three girls. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
The killings had one thing in common. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:27 | |
The victims had been snatched in broad daylight in seconds, | 0:08:28 | 0:08:32 | |
and their bodies were dumped hundreds of miles away. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:35 | |
'Police officers carried into court just a sample of over | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
'1.25 million documents prepared during the investigation.' | 0:08:42 | 0:08:46 | |
It was one of the biggest murder enquiries in Britain. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
Police compiled 20 tonnes of documents. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
At Newcastle Crown Court, Black denied everything. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:05 | |
It didn't look like a strong case, | 0:09:05 | 0:09:07 | |
but his employers had kept meticulous records of his | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
deliveries that placed him in the areas where the girls had been abducted. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:15 | |
And fuel receipts placed him close to where the bodies were dumped. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
'Robert Black has been found guilty of murdering three young | 0:09:24 | 0:09:27 | |
'girls in the 1980s.' | 0:09:27 | 0:09:29 | |
It was enough to get him three life sentences, to add to the | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
one he was already serving in Scotland. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:38 | |
Robert Black's pattern of offending had now been | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
established in England and Scotland. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:46 | |
It was a pattern that also fitted | 0:09:48 | 0:09:50 | |
one unsolved murder case in Northern Ireland. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:53 | |
It was a bright, sunny day in August 1981 when Robert Black | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
drove down the A1 to Newry to deliver billboard posters. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:09 | |
Jennifer Cardy had got a new bike, and had set off after lunch to | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
visit a friend before going on holiday the next day. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
So, she was all hyped and excited. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:27 | |
And this would have been her last day out, and because it was a new | 0:10:27 | 0:10:30 | |
bicycle, she was so looking forward to doing that. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:35 | |
And she wouldn't be out on it for another couple of weeks. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:39 | |
This would be the last time. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:41 | |
Pat Cardy set the time | 0:10:43 | 0:10:45 | |
on Jennifer's watch before she left the house. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
It was 1:40. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
She was due home by four, but when she didn't show up, | 0:10:50 | 0:10:54 | |
initially there was no panic. | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
I, in all honesty, wasn't terribly worried | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
because youngsters are youngsters, and the word paedophile was | 0:10:58 | 0:11:02 | |
not in our vocabulary even then, I wouldn't have known | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
what a paedophile was. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
And it's very hard sometimes to explain to younger people | 0:11:06 | 0:11:10 | |
what it was like in them days. And there was no danger. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
Children cycled everywhere. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:16 | |
And there was no danger, so I really wasn't... | 0:11:16 | 0:11:20 | |
I wasn't unduly worried, | 0:11:20 | 0:11:22 | |
but as the night wore on, then obviously we were, so we were. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
We then went out, and I started to search everywhere | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
that we thought she would have went. And she never arrived anywhere. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:35 | |
Jennifer's older brother Mark has never spoken | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
publicly about what happened to his sister. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:41 | |
I think it was around about 9pm. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:45 | |
I remember my father driving up in the car, he came over to me. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
I wondered, "What's going on?" | 0:11:49 | 0:11:51 | |
He said, "Did you see Jennifer, do you know where Jennifer is?" | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
Jennifer's bicycle was found thrown over | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
a hedge into a field about a mile from her home. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
Her bike was found, I think it was about...just about 12:30. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:07 | |
You know, just after midnight that evening. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
I think then, of course, you had a sense of worry. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:14 | |
And you didn't know what would happen. | 0:12:14 | 0:12:16 | |
Up this lane-way here, and on we go. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
In the coming days, there was a huge search, with friends, | 0:12:31 | 0:12:35 | |
family and strangers joining in. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
The police carried out a reconstruction. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
The search for the missing | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
schoolgirl from County Antrim has been widened to Britain. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
Posters and descriptions of nine-year-old Jennifer Cardy, who | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
disappeared from her home at Ballinderry near Lough Neagh last week... | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
Time goes on and you think that every day without news | 0:13:03 | 0:13:08 | |
means you've some hope left. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:09 | |
But yet, every day without news seems to take some hope away. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
So you try and face the inevitable. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:21 | |
After six days came the news that the Cardy family was dreading. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
It was really, really hard, for every one of us, | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
and for the wider family. It was really hard. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
But on that day, um, I... | 0:13:38 | 0:13:43 | |
We just knew we couldn't go on any longer. And... | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
As a Christian, I just brought this again to the Lord | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
and just said, "I can't go on." | 0:13:53 | 0:13:55 | |
And really made a particular... | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
prayer about it, and she was found that day. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:04 | |
We had come to the point that we knew that, after six | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
days, that there wasn't going to be a good outcome. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:20 | |
And I think that we were expecting what we did eventually learn. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:26 | |
Around the house it was, er, quiet. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:32 | |
You know, just a quiet... I can't... | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
I can't really put my finger on, you know... | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
Of course, it was quite traumatic, but it was very quiet, you know, | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
because we knew what had happened. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:45 | |
Robert Black had killed Jennifer | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
and left her body here at McKee's Dam, | 0:14:49 | 0:14:53 | |
a lay-by on the main Belfast to Newry road. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
Her watch had stopped at 5:40. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
Police believe that was the time her body had been put in the water. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:05 | |
Robert Black then drove off to get the overnight ferry home. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:11 | |
We lived six days without knowing what had happened to our child, | 0:15:13 | 0:15:16 | |
but at least at the end of six days | 0:15:16 | 0:15:20 | |
we found out that she was passed away. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
I went to the morgue and identified her, | 0:15:23 | 0:15:25 | |
and it was like a reunion in lots of ways. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:28 | |
And it did, in lots of ways, give me relief, even though | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
she was now dead. At least we knew. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
Let us pray. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:41 | |
Mark Cardy was 13 when Jennifer died. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
I remember the funeral. I remember the funeral day. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
I remember the coffin... | 0:15:51 | 0:15:55 | |
I think was carried the full way to the graveside, | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
because a lot of people wanted to, you know, carry the coffin. | 0:15:59 | 0:16:02 | |
At least we weren't going to live the rest of our lives | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
wondering what happened. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
And the awfulness of that for the families that have not | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
recovered bodies, or know exactly what happened to them. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:21 | |
It's just so awful. It's just a living nightmare. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
McKee's Dam is hidden from view, well away from passing cars. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:38 | |
It was exactly the sort of place Black liked to take his victims. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:48 | |
He had driven the Belfast-Newry Road at least a dozen times. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
And he would have known that it was only a few steps | 0:17:14 | 0:17:17 | |
to the water's edge. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:18 | |
It would take another 30 years before Robert Black | 0:17:24 | 0:17:28 | |
would face trial for killing Jennifer in 1981. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
But, after such a long gap in time, | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
would it be possible to prove the case? | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
Robert Black was born in Stirlingshire in Scotland in 1947. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:55 | |
He was abandoned at birth by his mother | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
and brought up by foster parents. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
They died when he was 11 and he was sent to a council home. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:12 | |
-Richard. -Hello, Chris. -How are you? | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to us. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
Pleased to meet you. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:21 | |
'Psychiatrist Dr Richard Badcock knew Robert Black better than most | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
'and regularly met him in prison. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
'He believed he was damaged early on | 0:18:28 | 0:18:31 | |
'by an isolated and difficult childhood. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:34 | |
'And had been sexually abused before the age of five.' | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
There's no doubt at all in my mind | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
that he was seriously sexually abused as a child. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
Bill Nichol arrived at the same children's home at the age of 14. | 0:18:44 | 0:18:48 | |
Among the boys sharing his dormitory was one two years younger. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:54 | |
That was that boy, Robert Black, who we knew as Bobby Black. | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
He wasn't a great friend of mine. | 0:18:57 | 0:18:59 | |
Erm... | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
we didn't have very much in common at all. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
Apart from the fact he was very more forward | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
than he possibly should have been for his age, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
he didn't seem a total mess at all. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
He didn't seem a monster in the making, as it were. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:17 | |
But, in fact, he was already showing signs of sexual violence by then. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:22 | |
At the age of 12, he was kicked out of the home | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
after he attempted to rape a young girl, who also lived there. | 0:19:25 | 0:19:29 | |
Black moved out very quickly. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:31 | |
Nothing, nothing was spoken about. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:35 | |
Not even between us, the children. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:37 | |
You know, all the people who were there who knew each other. And... | 0:19:37 | 0:19:42 | |
knew Black. | 0:19:42 | 0:19:43 | |
Nobody... No one ever said to me, | 0:19:43 | 0:19:47 | |
"Did you hear what Bobby Black tried to do to so-and-so?" | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
He was swiftly dispatched to another care home. | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
Black later told psychiatrists | 0:19:55 | 0:19:57 | |
he was regularly abused there by a member of staff. | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
Whatever the truth of his early life, by the time he left care | 0:20:02 | 0:20:06 | |
in the early '60s, at the age of 15, | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
he was already sexually dangerous. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:11 | |
He lured a seven-year-old girl into an air raid shelter | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
on the pretext of showing her some kittens. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
Once he'd got her there, | 0:20:22 | 0:20:24 | |
he strangled her until she lost consciousness | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
and then he sexually assaulted her. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:28 | |
That would be the blueprint of his offending for the next 30 years. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:35 | |
But a psychiatric report at the time concluded | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
that this was an isolated incident | 0:20:38 | 0:20:40 | |
and that Black would be unlikely to reoffend. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:43 | |
Back then, I don't think people | 0:20:45 | 0:20:48 | |
so automatically connected early abuse with later offending. | 0:20:48 | 0:20:52 | |
But, again, now, it would be | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
very clear to most people, I think, | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
that a child in that position, | 0:20:57 | 0:21:00 | |
doing those things, | 0:21:00 | 0:21:02 | |
was acting out | 0:21:02 | 0:21:05 | |
something left over from | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
a highly adverse previous personal experience of a sexual nature. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
Today, that would be attempted murder. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
But Black got away with just a rap on the knuckles. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
That was a missed opportunity to stop Black in his tracks. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
A year later, he assaulted a nine-year-old girl. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:31 | |
Again, the courts took a lenient view. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
His punishment? | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
A year in borstal. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:37 | |
Those failures of the Scottish legal system | 0:21:37 | 0:21:39 | |
paved the way for Black to go on offending for three decades. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:44 | |
And the question is, | 0:21:44 | 0:21:45 | |
how did he get away with it for so long? | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
When he got out of borstal, | 0:21:51 | 0:21:52 | |
Black decided it was time to leave Scotland. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:56 | |
In 1970, he moved to the anonymity of London | 0:21:56 | 0:22:00 | |
and lodged here in an attic room in Stamford Hill. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
He got a job as a van driver, | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
delivering billboard posters all over the UK. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
He wasn't a very sociable colleague, | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
but he was on the darts team. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:15 | |
He didn't go out with any of the mates in the team. | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
Not as a social, like.... | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
He'd just...he was a loner. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:22 | |
He done his own thing. | 0:22:22 | 0:22:24 | |
We used to say, like, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:26 | |
"Don't let him near your kids". But... | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
it was kind of a joke. A semi-joke. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:30 | |
He may have been regarded as odd, | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
but he managed to keep his dark side hidden | 0:22:36 | 0:22:38 | |
under the veneer of an ordinary life. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
His job as a van driver was to provide the perfect opportunity | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
for a serial offender. | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
His van was like a second home. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:58 | |
He lived and slept in it. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:00 | |
RECORDING: | 0:23:02 | 0:23:05 | |
His job allowed him to... | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
In fact, his job kind of encouraged him, even, | 0:23:12 | 0:23:14 | |
to develop that... | 0:23:14 | 0:23:16 | |
the erm... | 0:23:16 | 0:23:18 | |
in the sense that he was a reasonably long distance van driver, | 0:23:18 | 0:23:22 | |
so he was away for long periods of time, | 0:23:22 | 0:23:24 | |
so it was quite natural for him to sort of base his whole life | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
around his vehicle. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
And he got a lot of satisfaction from the fantasising he could do | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
while he was driving around in the cab. | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
TRAFFIC RUMBLES | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
And he soon became obsessed with those fantasies. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
He volunteered for the long-haul routes | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
that his work colleagues turned down. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:46 | |
Among them, the Scotland and Northern Ireland deliveries. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:50 | |
He had an encyclopaedic knowledge of the U.K.'s road network | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
and liked to explore minor country roads. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:57 | |
A total of seven police forces had questioned Black. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:12 | |
He was serving four life sentences, | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
but had never confessed to any crime. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
By 2005, 24 years after Jennifer Cardy was killed, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:22 | |
it was the turn of the PSNI. | 0:24:22 | 0:24:24 | |
RECORDING: | 0:24:26 | 0:24:27 | |
If the PSNI were to have any chance of cracking him, | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
they would need to be clever. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:43 | |
Detective Constable Pamela Simpson | 0:24:45 | 0:24:47 | |
had 12 years' experience of dealing with sex abuse victims | 0:24:47 | 0:24:51 | |
in the PSNI Care Unit. | 0:24:51 | 0:24:52 | |
There wasn't an awful lot that I hadn't | 0:24:54 | 0:24:56 | |
heard about throughout interviews. | 0:24:56 | 0:24:58 | |
And you learn not to show shock. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
You learn not to show horror. | 0:25:01 | 0:25:03 | |
And you learn not to show emotion, | 0:25:03 | 0:25:05 | |
whenever you are listening to things like that. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:07 | |
And that was exactly what I did | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
whenever I was speaking to Robert Black. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:12 | |
Was it difficult sometimes? | 0:25:12 | 0:25:13 | |
It was extremely difficult. | 0:25:13 | 0:25:15 | |
She now found herself face to face | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
with a convicted child killer. | 0:25:19 | 0:25:21 | |
'It wasn't what I expected. | 0:25:23 | 0:25:25 | |
'Knowing what I knew about the man,' | 0:25:27 | 0:25:29 | |
I was expecting a harsh, gruff sort of man. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:34 | |
-RECORDING: -'..during the interview. | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
'Are you happy enough with that? | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
-'Yeah, so far. -OK.' | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
He was very softly spoken. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
He had a soft Scottish lilt | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
and, in fact, was very easy listening. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
Psychiatrist Dr Richard Badcock | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
had advised the PSNI on how to question Black. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:56 | |
RECORDING PLAYS | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
'He didn't like the word...' | 0:25:59 | 0:26:01 | |
murder. And... | 0:26:01 | 0:26:03 | |
he was not someone to admit to anything. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
So, whenever we were interviewing him, | 0:26:06 | 0:26:08 | |
when the questions were put to him, it was, | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
"Do you accept that you were here that day?" | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
Pamela Simpson was surprised that he was willing to engage with her. | 0:26:16 | 0:26:20 | |
'I think everyone was surprised at that, | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
'because nobody knew before we went into the interviews | 0:26:24 | 0:26:27 | |
'whether he was even going to talk at all.' | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
And, for some unknown reason, | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
he felt comfortable talking to myself. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
'She was open with him, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:36 | |
'she gave him sort of direct, immediate feedback' | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
and he responded to that very positively. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:42 | |
RECORDING: | 0:26:44 | 0:26:45 | |
The police had worked on a strategy for their interviews with Black. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:19 | |
'We had a very clear strategy, in that respect,' | 0:27:19 | 0:27:22 | |
that, whenever we were speaking to him, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
we wanted him to open up about... | 0:27:25 | 0:27:28 | |
his sexual preferences, his fantasies. | 0:27:28 | 0:27:32 | |
And, basically, that is the strategy | 0:27:32 | 0:27:35 | |
that we went into the interview with. | 0:27:35 | 0:27:37 | |
The PSNI officers interviewed Black for three days. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
Their strategy started to pay off | 0:27:45 | 0:27:48 | |
and he began to describe his fantasies. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
RECORDING: | 0:27:53 | 0:27:57 | |
Dr Badcock, in his role as psychiatric adviser to the PSNI, | 0:28:20 | 0:28:25 | |
had listened in to the 2005 interviews | 0:28:25 | 0:28:28 | |
from an adjoining room. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:31 | |
We played the interviews for him again. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
'The bit about sort of trying to guess the age of the child,' | 0:28:34 | 0:28:37 | |
that's not the whole story. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:39 | |
Because he would... | 0:28:39 | 0:28:40 | |
..he would make a judgement about that immediately. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
Erm, I think what he's... | 0:28:44 | 0:28:47 | |
what he's thinking about is, | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
"What would she look like undressed?" | 0:28:49 | 0:28:51 | |
Pamela Simpson kept encouraging Black to talk. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
RECORDING: | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
The police knew that children wouldn't willingly engage | 0:29:26 | 0:29:29 | |
with Black in this way. | 0:29:29 | 0:29:30 | |
The police asked Black about how, in his fantasy, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
he would get a young girl into his van. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
RECORDING: | 0:29:41 | 0:29:42 | |
Jennifer Cardy had been wearing trousers when she went missing. | 0:31:12 | 0:31:16 | |
Pamela Simpson's question was aimed at getting Black | 0:31:18 | 0:31:21 | |
to discuss his abduction of her. | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
He had carefully dodged the question. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:26 | |
RECORDING: | 0:31:30 | 0:31:32 | |
-And that very long pause. -Mm-hm. | 0:31:46 | 0:31:49 | |
Do you attach any significance to that? | 0:31:49 | 0:31:51 | |
Oh, yeah, course. Yes. | 0:31:51 | 0:31:52 | |
All Robert's pauses are significant. | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
Erm... | 0:31:55 | 0:31:56 | |
It's not because he's thinking about the answer, | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
it's because he's trying not to give stuff away. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
RECORDING: | 0:32:10 | 0:32:12 | |
With the use of the term "passively compliant", | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
it was becoming clear to the police that Black was starting to describe | 0:33:19 | 0:33:22 | |
some of his actual crimes, | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
in which he rendered the girls unconscious. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:27 | |
In the situation where he is sexually aroused, | 0:33:30 | 0:33:33 | |
he doesn't want another presence at all. | 0:33:33 | 0:33:36 | |
It's important to him that he is the only presence there. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
Erm, so... | 0:33:41 | 0:33:43 | |
Hoping that the child would enjoy it is... | 0:33:48 | 0:33:52 | |
again, it's something that... | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
that he would... | 0:33:55 | 0:33:57 | |
perhaps like to be the case. | 0:33:57 | 0:34:00 | |
But it isn't. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:01 | |
And he knows it isn't. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:02 | |
You know, he wants the child not there. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:05 | |
Just the body, really. | 0:34:05 | 0:34:06 | |
RECORDING: | 0:34:09 | 0:34:10 | |
Here, Black was describing what happened in Stow, | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
when he put a cushion cover over the head of the six-year-old girl | 0:34:56 | 0:35:00 | |
he'd forced into his van. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
RECORDING: | 0:35:06 | 0:35:09 | |
-RECORDING: -I say, in your fantasies, | 0:35:24 | 0:35:26 | |
you never pick up an awkward customer. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:28 | |
-You're lucky that way. -Right, OK. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:30 | |
Black had no shame in describing his sexual desires for young girls. | 0:35:36 | 0:35:41 | |
But he seemed to get embarrassed | 0:35:41 | 0:35:43 | |
when Pamela Simpson asked him about sex aids found in his van. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:47 | |
They were used for sadomasochistic purposes | 0:35:49 | 0:35:52 | |
to inflict pain on himself, as he was driving. | 0:35:52 | 0:35:55 | |
This is one of the areas which he acknowledges is deeply personal. | 0:35:56 | 0:36:01 | |
A lot of the very personal things he doesn't acknowledge. | 0:36:01 | 0:36:04 | |
But this area is one. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:06 | |
You know, because he has devoted a considerable part of his life | 0:36:06 | 0:36:09 | |
to pursuing it. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:11 | |
RECORDING: | 0:36:12 | 0:36:14 | |
That was the one moment where he appeared to lose his cool, | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
when she was questioning him about the sex aids | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
that he carried in his van. | 0:36:48 | 0:36:50 | |
He was ashamed in front of Pamela. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:52 | |
She was a very good interviewing officer. | 0:36:52 | 0:36:55 | |
She had a very naturalistic, non-judgemental style. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
And he responded to that very positively. | 0:36:58 | 0:37:00 | |
But even though his scenarios represented as fantasies, | 0:37:06 | 0:37:10 | |
the police soon realised he was in fact describing reality. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
Whenever we looked at the case after the interviews, | 0:37:46 | 0:37:51 | |
we felt that in actual fact he had put himself back into that | 0:37:51 | 0:37:56 | |
position and that he was actually there. | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
If you go by the description that he had given in his fantasy, | 0:37:59 | 0:38:03 | |
the high hedges and the roads sweeping down and up to the left, | 0:38:03 | 0:38:08 | |
that is exactly the same scene where Jennifer was taken from. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:14 | |
The final interview, my colleague was putting everything to him | 0:38:23 | 0:38:27 | |
that we had proved throughout the previous interviews. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:30 | |
It was evident, as we were going through those last interviews, | 0:38:30 | 0:38:34 | |
that Black realised himself that he had said too much. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:37 | |
The head went down, he lost eye contact with us. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:43 | |
And at the very end of the interview, whenever the tapes | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
were off, he knew at that stage that he had said too much. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:50 | |
It was clear that although the questions were about his fantasies, | 0:38:54 | 0:39:00 | |
which he was happy to talk about, | 0:39:00 | 0:39:02 | |
what he was actually talking about were his exact decision-making | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
processes during actual offences. | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
And you could tell that from his naturalistic language and his | 0:39:09 | 0:39:13 | |
body language and the whole way in which he presented information. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:17 | |
So that was very helpful, because that did fill in a few gaps, | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
really, about what had actually happened. | 0:39:21 | 0:39:24 | |
In 2011, Robert Black went on trial in Northern Ireland | 0:39:26 | 0:39:30 | |
for the murder of Jennifer Cardy. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:32 | |
There was no forensic evidence, no admission and no eyewitnesses. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:40 | |
The recorded police interviews would be crucial in getting a conviction. | 0:39:40 | 0:39:44 | |
Black listened impassively from the dock. A short distance away in the | 0:39:45 | 0:39:50 | |
public gallery, Jennifer's father, mother, two brothers and sister | 0:39:50 | 0:39:54 | |
were joined by a large group made up of other family members and friends. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:58 | |
The Cardy family came face-to-face with Black 30 years after | 0:40:02 | 0:40:06 | |
he had taken Jennifer. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:07 | |
We went to this court not wanting to be there, | 0:40:10 | 0:40:14 | |
not wanting to see his face. | 0:40:14 | 0:40:17 | |
I thought we were going to hear a pathetic excuse of his bad | 0:40:17 | 0:40:23 | |
upbringing, which made him do these things. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:27 | |
And OK, there may be just cause for that. | 0:40:28 | 0:40:32 | |
But I didn't want to hear that. | 0:40:32 | 0:40:34 | |
I didn't want to hear of somebody being neglected in their childhood. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:39 | |
And because of that... Or being abusing their childhood. | 0:40:39 | 0:40:43 | |
And because of that, having it ingrained in them | 0:40:43 | 0:40:47 | |
that they would do this to others. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:50 | |
The first time I saw him, I don't know what I thought, you know, | 0:40:53 | 0:40:58 | |
you just saw someone who's probably killed my sister. | 0:40:58 | 0:41:01 | |
And... I never felt hatred, I would have liked to maybe | 0:41:01 | 0:41:06 | |
just understood, to just know, why would he do that? | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
-Did Black ever look at you? -Never once. | 0:41:13 | 0:41:16 | |
Never once in Armagh Court, never once did he ever look at any of us. | 0:41:16 | 0:41:21 | |
He walked up from underneath... The cells were underneath the floor. | 0:41:21 | 0:41:27 | |
He came up the staircase and turned round and | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
went and sat in his seat and just looked in front of him, expressionless. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:35 | |
And he never once, never once looked at us. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:39 | |
It was quite harrowing to see the man that you know was | 0:41:41 | 0:41:46 | |
the last human being your daughter seen. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:49 | |
And when I saw him walking and seen how old-looking he was, | 0:41:49 | 0:41:54 | |
same age as me, a year older than me, and how old-looking he was, | 0:41:54 | 0:41:58 | |
and he was quite pathetic-looking in lots of ways, you know? | 0:41:58 | 0:42:01 | |
What the Cardy family learned in court about Black | 0:42:03 | 0:42:06 | |
was beyond their comprehension. | 0:42:06 | 0:42:08 | |
We had to listen to what he had in the van. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:13 | |
Instruments that he could use on these children. | 0:42:13 | 0:42:16 | |
And it just broke your heart. We just sat and cried. It was... | 0:42:16 | 0:42:21 | |
It broke your heart to see | 0:42:21 | 0:42:23 | |
and know that a man had done things that were beyond your imagination. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:29 | |
It wasn't even in your imagination to do what he wanted to do and did, | 0:42:29 | 0:42:34 | |
and it just broke your heart. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
There's no doubt Black's recorded interviews were harrowing to hear. | 0:42:38 | 0:42:42 | |
But they were a crucial part of the evidence presented in court. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:46 | |
Well, he went further than he ever, ever would have wanted to go, | 0:42:49 | 0:42:53 | |
and there was no taking that back. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:56 | |
It added to the whole similar fact, | 0:42:56 | 0:43:00 | |
bad character, and out of his own mouth, he nailed himself. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:06 | |
-That's the way I look at it. -Yeah. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:08 | |
The police interview strategy had worked. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:14 | |
In 2011, Black was convicted of Jennifer Cardy's murder | 0:43:14 | 0:43:19 | |
and given another life sentence. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:21 | |
This time he was sent to Maghaberry Prison. | 0:43:22 | 0:43:26 | |
By now, he was serving five life sentences. | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
Satisfaction knowing that Robert Black will never again | 0:43:34 | 0:43:39 | |
walk the streets of Great Britain. | 0:43:39 | 0:43:42 | |
Never again will be able to torture little girls. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:45 | |
Because that's what he did. He tortured little girls, so he did. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:50 | |
So there's a lot of satisfaction in today. | 0:43:50 | 0:43:52 | |
It is not just the convicting of killing Jennifer, it's just, you know... | 0:43:52 | 0:43:57 | |
How many times has he done it? | 0:43:57 | 0:43:59 | |
We know he had three murder convictions before, | 0:44:03 | 0:44:05 | |
this is the fourth one. | 0:44:05 | 0:44:07 | |
And we know there's a number of suspected ones, | 0:44:07 | 0:44:09 | |
maybe dating from as far back as 1969. | 0:44:09 | 0:44:12 | |
Knowing that someone could have done that, | 0:44:15 | 0:44:17 | |
and done that year upon year upon year and not have got caught. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:21 | |
After 30 years of secret offending, | 0:44:24 | 0:44:27 | |
Robert Black's crimes were finally made public. | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
What's never really been made clear is what turned this | 0:44:31 | 0:44:35 | |
opportunistic predator into a murderer. | 0:44:35 | 0:44:38 | |
He has to take responsibility for what he did in terms of offending. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:45 | |
The person who abused him | 0:44:45 | 0:44:47 | |
has to take responsibility for starting the process. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:52 | |
Or the PERSONS who abused him | 0:44:52 | 0:44:54 | |
have to take responsibility for starting it off. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:57 | |
-By the time he was an adult, it was too late. -I think so. | 0:44:57 | 0:45:02 | |
So, by the time he was an adult, | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
had he developed that instinct to kill as well as to sexually assault? | 0:45:04 | 0:45:09 | |
It seems a terrible thing to say, | 0:45:09 | 0:45:12 | |
but I believe he had no interest in killing children. | 0:45:12 | 0:45:17 | |
What he had an interest in, in fact an obsession | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
and fascination for, was in possessing the body | 0:45:19 | 0:45:23 | |
of a child for a period long enough for him to be able to | 0:45:23 | 0:45:29 | |
develop, or enact, fantasies. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:33 | |
Whatever caused Black to become a serial killer of young girls, | 0:45:36 | 0:45:41 | |
he never appeared to show remorse. | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
However, he did seem to have a complicated insight | 0:45:43 | 0:45:47 | |
into his own behaviour. | 0:45:47 | 0:45:49 | |
Do you think, though, that that | 0:46:58 | 0:47:00 | |
was the closest perhaps he ever came to showing any kind of remorse at all? | 0:47:00 | 0:47:04 | |
No. My attitude to that was that | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
he was feeling sorry for himself. | 0:47:09 | 0:47:12 | |
It wasn't remorse. He's never shown remorse for what he did. | 0:47:12 | 0:47:17 | |
Again, that was the ilk of the man. | 0:47:17 | 0:47:19 | |
He was feeling sorry for himself. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
Over the years, Black was examined by numerous psychiatrists | 0:47:24 | 0:47:28 | |
and psychologists. He once asked one of them | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
if he was evil or mad. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:34 | |
He was never diagnosed as insane. | 0:47:34 | 0:47:37 | |
I think Robert Black was most definitely not mad. | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
He most definitely was evil. And he had went down the road of evil | 0:47:42 | 0:47:47 | |
and just gathered evil as he went along. | 0:47:47 | 0:47:50 | |
And I would have said that he was just 100% evil | 0:47:50 | 0:47:55 | |
but he certainly wasn't mad. | 0:47:55 | 0:47:57 | |
I think he was actually quite intelligent, so he was. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:00 | |
But Black did have what mental health experts viewed | 0:48:04 | 0:48:08 | |
as a personality disorder, making him devoid of normal emotions. | 0:48:08 | 0:48:13 | |
Why did he have no conscience? | 0:48:15 | 0:48:18 | |
Well, the thing about sadomasochistic psychopathology is | 0:48:18 | 0:48:21 | |
that over time it empties you of the things that make us human, | 0:48:21 | 0:48:25 | |
because the things that make us human are essentially | 0:48:25 | 0:48:29 | |
relationships with the outside world, | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
relationships with other people, so he was lost. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:36 | |
His inner world was empty, dystonic, | 0:48:36 | 0:48:41 | |
bleak... | 0:48:41 | 0:48:44 | |
disturbingly frightening, overwhelming, | 0:48:44 | 0:48:49 | |
a sense of massive nothingness, a deadness. | 0:48:49 | 0:48:56 | |
If you like, what he was trying to escape all the time | 0:48:56 | 0:49:00 | |
was a sense of deadness that was growing within him. | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
'Bill Nicol, whose childhood briefly overlapped with Robert Black's in the Scottish care home,' | 0:49:06 | 0:49:11 | |
went on to have a distinguished military career. | 0:49:11 | 0:49:15 | |
Were you surprised, then, | 0:49:16 | 0:49:17 | |
whenever Black emerged as a serial child killer? | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
Did that come as a shock to you? | 0:49:21 | 0:49:23 | |
Oh, absolutely horrendous shock. | 0:49:23 | 0:49:27 | |
As I say, it took a while | 0:49:27 | 0:49:29 | |
for it to register with me that | 0:49:29 | 0:49:30 | |
it was the person that I could remember. | 0:49:30 | 0:49:33 | |
I mean, all the photographs that came into the media, | 0:49:33 | 0:49:36 | |
they did try and portray him as a monster and looking like a monster. | 0:49:36 | 0:49:40 | |
Black was convicted of four murders, | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
but police believe he was responsible for as many as 12 more, | 0:49:45 | 0:49:50 | |
among them Genette Tate from Devonshire, | 0:49:50 | 0:49:53 | |
Silke Garben from Germany, | 0:49:53 | 0:49:56 | |
and Sabine Dumont from Paris, | 0:49:56 | 0:49:59 | |
and those families never got answers. | 0:49:59 | 0:50:02 | |
Black died in Maghaberry Prison last month. | 0:50:05 | 0:50:08 | |
He died, as he lived, alone. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:12 | |
There was no-one to claim his body. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:14 | |
He was cremated secretly at Roselawn Cemetery in Belfast, | 0:50:15 | 0:50:19 | |
outside normal hours. | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
His ashes were scattered at sea. | 0:50:22 | 0:50:24 | |
There were no mourners. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:26 | |
As a final act of cruelty, Black chose not to reveal | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
where he left the bodies of his other victims. | 0:50:31 | 0:50:34 | |
His secrets died with him. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:38 | |
This will be on my heart forever. | 0:50:42 | 0:50:44 | |
I always wanted to talk to Robert Black. | 0:50:46 | 0:50:52 | |
Can I say that? | 0:50:52 | 0:50:53 | |
And I wanted to say to him, "Look... You're the same age as me. | 0:50:55 | 0:51:02 | |
"You've never done anything good with your life. | 0:51:02 | 0:51:08 | |
"Why can you not do just one thing good, | 0:51:08 | 0:51:12 | |
"to tell one family where the body of their child is?" | 0:51:12 | 0:51:16 | |
-Yeah. -"You know you can do that." | 0:51:16 | 0:51:18 | |
That's what I would like. | 0:51:20 | 0:51:22 | |
And I never got the chance. | 0:51:22 | 0:51:24 | |
The family of the policeman who rescued his six-year-old daughter | 0:51:27 | 0:51:30 | |
from Robert Black's van continue to count their blessings. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:34 | |
Because it ended the way it did | 0:51:37 | 0:51:39 | |
and we actually got our daughter | 0:51:39 | 0:51:41 | |
back again, we actually look on it | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
as good fortune rather than anything else. | 0:51:43 | 0:51:46 | |
We dinna dwell on it in any way, shape or form. | 0:51:46 | 0:51:48 | |
So I just sort of spotted it coming back down the drive... | 0:51:48 | 0:51:51 | |
'Ian Turnbull's daughter has recovered well from her ordeal | 0:51:51 | 0:51:55 | |
'and has got on with her life. The day we interviewed him' | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
he heard the news that she had given birth to a child of her own. | 0:51:58 | 0:52:02 | |
For the Cardy family, there is a life sentence of grief. | 0:52:04 | 0:52:08 | |
The place where Jennifer was taken is just a mile from the family home. | 0:52:13 | 0:52:17 | |
We felt an impact, especially when | 0:52:21 | 0:52:24 | |
it comes up to things like holiday times and Christmas times, you know, | 0:52:24 | 0:52:28 | |
of course you felt the loss. | 0:52:28 | 0:52:31 | |
Sometimes we went on maybe caravan holidays at that stage | 0:52:31 | 0:52:35 | |
and...and now, the back seat of the car wasn't full. | 0:52:35 | 0:52:40 | |
There was two in the back seat of the car and not three. | 0:52:40 | 0:52:43 | |
I remember Jennifer very fondly. | 0:52:46 | 0:52:47 | |
She was a very caring person and we had our times together, | 0:52:47 | 0:52:51 | |
you know, bickering of course playing together. We had good times. | 0:52:51 | 0:52:56 | |
And what sort of games would you play? | 0:52:56 | 0:52:58 | |
Well, sometimes, there was the wee set, | 0:52:58 | 0:53:01 | |
and I kept a couple of the wee instruments. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
We played with this here, this is a wee, like a wee village | 0:53:05 | 0:53:11 | |
-and sometimes we would play... -Was that yours? | 0:53:11 | 0:53:14 | |
No, that is actually Jennifer's and I've kept that, | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
I've kept that, I never... | 0:53:17 | 0:53:20 | |
I was never one for, you know, having shrines, | 0:53:20 | 0:53:23 | |
and none of our family are, but we all have our wee special pieces | 0:53:23 | 0:53:27 | |
and that's... I've kept that, that's my wee special piece. | 0:53:27 | 0:53:31 | |
That's your special memory of Jennifer? | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
Yes, I have great memories of playing with that with Jennifer. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
Memories of Robert Black still cast a shadow over many lives. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:54 | |
It's something that I think about quite a lot | 0:53:56 | 0:54:01 | |
and I travel the A1 carriageway several times in week | 0:54:01 | 0:54:06 | |
past McKee's Dam, and there's not a time that I don't go past that dam | 0:54:06 | 0:54:14 | |
when I don't think of Jennifer and her last moments | 0:54:14 | 0:54:18 | |
and the Cardy family. | 0:54:18 | 0:54:20 | |
So, yes, it is something that I will take to my grave with me. | 0:54:22 | 0:54:25 |