Browse content similar to 01/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The big European Union debate has begun | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
and the big guns are in town. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:53 | |
It will be decided | 0:19:53 | 0:19:55 | |
by the people of the United Kingdom. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:57 | |
The real opportunity is to strike new trade deals around the world | 0:19:59 | 0:20:04 | |
and get rid of the dead hand of the EU. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:06 | |
We are totally opposed to any exit from Europe. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
Europe needs fundamental reforms, and if we were to vote today, | 0:20:09 | 0:20:12 | |
we would leave the European Union. | 0:20:12 | 0:20:14 | |
It's 41 years since the UK last had a say | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
on its membership of the European Union. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:25 | |
I believe that it's in the interest | 0:20:25 | 0:20:27 | |
of both the UK as a whole, | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
and of Northern Ireland itself, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:31 | |
that we should remain a member of the European community. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
Back then, the UK as a whole opted to remain by a margin of 2-1. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
CHEERING | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
Northern Ireland, in the midst of conflict, also voted to remain, | 0:20:45 | 0:20:50 | |
but by a much narrower margin - 52% to 48% in favour. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:55 | |
It is D-Day in the battle | 0:20:56 | 0:20:59 | |
of a British resurgence based not on isolation, | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
but on enthusiastic co-operation. | 0:21:04 | 0:21:07 | |
This campervan rolled off the production line | 0:21:10 | 0:21:12 | |
just after the last referendum. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:14 | |
40 years on, I am taking it on the road to talk to people | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
about how the European Union affects them and their families' lives. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:23 | |
I will find out about political relationships, | 0:21:23 | 0:21:25 | |
about how this referendum could affect politics | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
in Northern Ireland and beyond. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
With less than four months until the referendum on June 23rd, | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
debate about a British exit, or Brexit, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
is beginning across Northern Ireland. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
For those who live off the land, times are tough. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:57 | |
Dairy farmers, like the McGuinness family in south Armagh, | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
are barely breaking even. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
-Hi, Conor. -Hi, Kieran. How are you doing? | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
-Welcome to Kingsmill Farm. -Thank you very much, sir. Thank you. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
-How many cows have you got? -280 cows here. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:22 | |
Is it a bit of a struggle at the moment? | 0:22:22 | 0:22:24 | |
It's tricky at the minute. | 0:22:24 | 0:22:26 | |
Why, what is making it difficult for you at the moment? | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
The price is the biggest sticker, you know? | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
We are down to 17p a litre, | 0:22:31 | 0:22:33 | |
which is well below the cost of production. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:37 | |
What level do you need to be at in terms of pence per litre | 0:22:39 | 0:22:41 | |
to make it profitable? | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
We would need to be getting 30p or thereabouts. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
Especially in the wintertime. The costs are high. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:52 | |
Since 1962, farming in EU member countries | 0:22:54 | 0:22:58 | |
has been governed by the Common Agricultural Policy, or CAP. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
CAP subsidies totalling £230 million | 0:23:05 | 0:23:08 | |
are made to farmers in Northern Ireland via the Single Farm Payment. | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
The Department of Agriculture forecasts the average dairy farm | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
income this year will be £10,000. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
That's down from £45,000 last year. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
A massive drop. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
It's blamed on a number of factors. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
For example, sanctions on Russia, | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
removing a key market for powdered milk. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
It means that this year, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:35 | |
many dairy farmers will be dependent on the Single Farm Payment | 0:23:35 | 0:23:39 | |
to survive. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
It's a matter of being in business or not in business, really. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
We couldn't operate without the Single Farm Payment. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:46 | |
How concerned are you that, if you came out of the EU, | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
that would be replaced by something else? | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
We don't know if there'll be an alternative or not. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
That would be the problem. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
Before we ever went into Europe, farmers were subsidised. | 0:23:57 | 0:24:01 | |
While we are in Europe, farmers are subsidised, | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
but we have less money to do it because we are giving money | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
to Europe, and when we leave the European Union, | 0:24:08 | 0:24:11 | |
farming will still be an important industry. | 0:24:11 | 0:24:15 | |
And all industries related to farming will be important. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
The Ulster Farmers' Union has said it won't be advising its members | 0:24:23 | 0:24:27 | |
on whether they should vote in or out. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
However, it has leaned toward staying in by saying it believes | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
subsidies are crucial to the industry | 0:24:35 | 0:24:37 | |
and that no compelling alternative has been put forward. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:40 | |
Things could be different | 0:24:43 | 0:24:44 | |
in another sector of the food production industry. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:47 | |
I am on my way now to Portavogie to meet a group of people | 0:24:48 | 0:24:52 | |
who have had plenty to say about the European Union | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
down the years - fishermen. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:56 | |
-Hello, Derek. -Hello, Conor. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
-How are you? -Not so bad. How's things? | 0:25:11 | 0:25:12 | |
Very well. Derek, thanks for letting us come. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:16 | |
Derek Edmund has fished out of Portavogie for 40 years. | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
He is the eighth generation to take to the seas | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
and his sons have followed in his footsteps. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:26 | |
He says times are as difficult as they have ever been | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
in those four decades. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:39 | |
You start fishing at six o'clock in the morning. | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
You finish at six o'clock | 0:25:44 | 0:25:45 | |
or eight o'clock at night. | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
It sounds like a hard life. | 0:25:48 | 0:25:49 | |
Well, it's not easy, but, sure, what is? | 0:25:49 | 0:25:51 | |
We sign up for this. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:52 | |
It's my way of life and that's the life we like doing. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
And we want to continue doing it. | 0:25:57 | 0:25:59 | |
Why do you like it? | 0:26:03 | 0:26:04 | |
It's in my blood. I've been doing it all my life. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:06 | |
My grandfather, and his father before that. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:10 | |
It has just been in the family, but it's getting harder every year. | 0:26:10 | 0:26:14 | |
There's so much red tape now, it gets harder and harder. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
Where does the red tape come from? | 0:26:20 | 0:26:21 | |
It comes from Brussels. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
We have MPs and MLAs and they come down and speak to fishermen | 0:26:24 | 0:26:29 | |
and fishermen give them their views, but when it goes to London | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
or Brussels, it seems to be... as far as I'm concerned, | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
it gets brushed below the carpet. | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
Go easy! | 0:26:37 | 0:26:38 | |
The European Union seeks to conserve stocks by imposing quotas | 0:26:44 | 0:26:48 | |
on fishermen like Derek via the Common Fisheries Policy. | 0:26:48 | 0:26:52 | |
While once Derek was able to land herring and cod, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
he is down to six months catching scallops | 0:26:57 | 0:27:00 | |
and six months catching prawns. | 0:27:00 | 0:27:03 | |
Bring a basket and measuring stick! | 0:27:04 | 0:27:07 | |
The EU says it is necessary to prevent the overfishing that went on | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
before it stepped in and imposed quotas. | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
Fishermen believe they might have a more certain future | 0:27:19 | 0:27:21 | |
outside the European Union. | 0:27:21 | 0:27:23 | |
For others, though, a Brexit would create uncertainties in areas | 0:27:23 | 0:27:27 | |
many of us take for granted. | 0:27:27 | 0:27:29 | |
Currently, milk from the McGuinness family farm in South Armagh | 0:27:36 | 0:27:40 | |
goes across the border to a creamery in Monaghan town. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
I went to see for myself. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:46 | |
As I came up to the border, I passed a derelict customs post. | 0:27:49 | 0:27:53 | |
A reminder of a different era. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:55 | |
I'm coming up to a bridge which separates County Armagh | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
from one County Monaghan. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:02 | |
These days, unless you look closely, it can be difficult | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
to see where Northern Ireland ends and the Republic begins. | 0:28:06 | 0:28:10 | |
And whether that will remain the case | 0:28:11 | 0:28:13 | |
is one of the fundamental questions of Brexit. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:15 | |
Customs controls were introduced shortly after partition | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
and were dotted along the border | 0:28:22 | 0:28:24 | |
at key crossing points. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:25 | |
Even before the Troubles, when security checks became normal, | 0:28:29 | 0:28:33 | |
the checkpoints were often the cause of queues to cross the border. | 0:28:33 | 0:28:36 | |
These disappeared at the beginning of 1993 | 0:28:38 | 0:28:41 | |
with the introduction of the European single market. | 0:28:41 | 0:28:44 | |
Gabriel Darcey runs a creamery where the milk | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
from the McGuinness family farm ends up. | 0:28:51 | 0:28:54 | |
He is worried what a Brexit could mean for the border | 0:28:54 | 0:28:57 | |
and his business. | 0:28:57 | 0:28:58 | |
Up the road, outside Aughnacloy, there would be another border post. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:07 | |
It harps back to a time | 0:29:08 | 0:29:11 | |
in the relatively recent past | 0:29:11 | 0:29:13 | |
that we all hoped | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
we had moved away from, | 0:29:15 | 0:29:17 | |
and not dwelling or speaking about the security aspects, | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
I am purely looking at the trading aspects. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
Opponents of Brexit will say there won't be border or customs posts. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:29 | |
Common sense dictates that what's there at the moment | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
will be what continues to be the case going forward. | 0:29:32 | 0:29:36 | |
If that is the case, and if there are no border controls, | 0:29:36 | 0:29:40 | |
well, that would certainly be helpful, | 0:29:40 | 0:29:42 | |
but as it stands, I can only surmise with what is likely to happen. | 0:29:42 | 0:29:47 | |
When you have two different trading blocs, border controls do exist. | 0:29:48 | 0:29:54 | |
For some, a less open border would be an impediment to free trade. | 0:29:59 | 0:30:04 | |
For others, though, it would represent a political step backward. | 0:30:04 | 0:30:08 | |
Even in a symbolic sense, | 0:30:09 | 0:30:11 | |
that has enormous repercussions for nationalism | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
because it reinstates the border between north and south | 0:30:14 | 0:30:18 | |
and perhaps it could be interpreted as undermining much of the progress | 0:30:18 | 0:30:22 | |
which has been made over recent years | 0:30:22 | 0:30:24 | |
in terms of bringing north and south closer together. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:27 | |
It's not just the border with the Irish Republic | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
which comes up in this debate. | 0:30:41 | 0:30:43 | |
I took the campervan to Carrickfergus | 0:30:49 | 0:30:52 | |
to meet some of the locals... | 0:30:52 | 0:30:53 | |
I want to know, are these bendy bananas?! | 0:30:53 | 0:30:56 | |
..with their vocally Eurosceptic MP, Sammy Wilson. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:31:00 | 0:31:02 | |
There, it was the UK's borders which was the biggest talking point. | 0:31:03 | 0:31:08 | |
What way are you leaning at the moment? | 0:31:08 | 0:31:10 | |
I would say out. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:12 | |
Er, not because of trade, but because of the immigration business. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
I have only lived in Northern Ireland for ten years. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:21 | |
I lived in the North of England the rest of my life | 0:31:21 | 0:31:24 | |
and I could see then what was happening | 0:31:24 | 0:31:27 | |
and it was quite frightening. | 0:31:27 | 0:31:29 | |
And I was last over there three years ago, | 0:31:30 | 0:31:34 | |
and I came back so depressed. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:36 | |
I walk through the town where I was born and brought up... | 0:31:38 | 0:31:41 | |
..and there was very little English spoken. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:45 | |
As someone who's emigrated a couple of times myself, | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
I have nothing against immigration. | 0:31:48 | 0:31:50 | |
But the border controls are a mess at the moment. | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
And I would have certain concerns about the whole breakdown of Europe | 0:31:54 | 0:31:58 | |
because we have lost control of it. | 0:31:58 | 0:32:00 | |
All Ireland ever exported for years was immigrants. | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
So, as a country, I believe we should encourage immigration into us | 0:32:05 | 0:32:09 | |
and I have nothing against that... | 0:32:09 | 0:32:11 | |
Provided we have control over it. | 0:32:11 | 0:32:13 | |
Control of it. Total control. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:15 | |
I think it will affect Northern Ireland worse than the rest of GB. | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
Why do you think that? | 0:32:19 | 0:32:21 | |
We're reliant on GB which is hugely reliant on Europe. | 0:32:21 | 0:32:24 | |
So I think we would really suffer. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:26 | |
We always do suffer more than the rest of GB anyway... | 0:32:26 | 0:32:29 | |
Financially. Lesser wages, everything. | 0:32:29 | 0:32:32 | |
So, it would hit us quite hard. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
Europe's economy is stagnating. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
That is one of the reasons why they are selling more goods to us | 0:32:38 | 0:32:41 | |
than we are selling to them. | 0:32:41 | 0:32:44 | |
They don't have the money to purchase them. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
I have plenty of scrambled eggs for breakfast anyway! | 0:32:47 | 0:32:50 | |
Sammy is here today because we are talking about the EU | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
and whether it is a good idea to stay or leave. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:56 | |
-I don't know what would be the best. -Uh-huh. | 0:32:57 | 0:33:00 | |
I really don't. | 0:33:00 | 0:33:01 | |
The great thing about the referendum is this... | 0:33:01 | 0:33:03 | |
For the first time in 45 years, our position in the European Union | 0:33:03 | 0:33:09 | |
will not be decided by people like me | 0:33:09 | 0:33:11 | |
or the elite at Westminster. It will be decided by people like you. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
You're part of the Westminster elite, aren't you?! | 0:33:15 | 0:33:17 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:33:17 | 0:33:18 | |
They try to stifle this debate about immigration. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
As soon as you say immigration, you are labelled a racist. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
Yes. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:26 | |
But most countries in the world have controls | 0:33:26 | 0:33:29 | |
about how many people they want to come in. | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
If they misbehave when they do come in, what you do with them? | 0:33:32 | 0:33:35 | |
But you can't send them back. | 0:33:35 | 0:33:37 | |
-No, because - currently - you've got the open door policy. -Yup. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
Secondly, you've got the European Court of Justice telling you | 0:33:41 | 0:33:44 | |
who can and can't stay. | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
The great thing about being out of the European Union | 0:33:47 | 0:33:50 | |
is you would grab back that control. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:52 | |
A few people brought up immigration as an issue. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
What impact will Brexit have on that? | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
Let's face it, | 0:33:59 | 0:34:00 | |
there are many people that come here and bring skills that we require. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:06 | |
We want to welcome those people | 0:34:06 | 0:34:08 | |
because they can make a contribution to our society. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
But we also want to control the numbers | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
so that we don't have, as happens in some parts of the UK, | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
pressure on housing, schools, and hospitals. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
So, I'm not anti-immigration. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
What I am is pro control of immigration. | 0:34:24 | 0:34:28 | |
So, we make the decisions about who comes in, who stays, | 0:34:28 | 0:34:32 | |
and who we get rid of. | 0:34:32 | 0:34:33 | |
Having heard the concerns about immigration in Carrickfergus, | 0:34:39 | 0:34:43 | |
I wanted to find out more about the industries that depend on it. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
We're heading into what is really the heart of the fishing industry | 0:34:56 | 0:35:00 | |
in Northern Ireland, into Kilkeel. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
We are going to see where some of the produce | 0:35:02 | 0:35:04 | |
caught by our fishermen ends up. | 0:35:04 | 0:35:06 | |
Since 1975, this factory has been processing fish | 0:35:08 | 0:35:12 | |
caught off these shores. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:14 | |
Many of the staff are from Eastern Europe. | 0:35:16 | 0:35:18 | |
How important is it to your business to have that access | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
to that migrant labour? | 0:35:23 | 0:35:25 | |
Just at the moment, if I didn't have them, | 0:35:25 | 0:35:27 | |
I would not be here, and that's just the plain way of it. | 0:35:27 | 0:35:30 | |
We find it very hard to get local labour. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:34 | |
We used to have 99% local labour. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:37 | |
Everybody is dependent, in Northern Ireland, | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
on migrant workers. | 0:35:40 | 0:35:41 | |
It doesn't matter what manufacturing you are in. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
How long have you been in Northern Ireland? | 0:35:47 | 0:35:49 | |
I have been here 13 years. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:52 | |
How many of these people are from Bulgaria? | 0:35:52 | 0:35:55 | |
About 30 or 40. | 0:35:55 | 0:35:56 | |
30 or 40? | 0:35:56 | 0:35:57 | |
-Yeah. -As many as that from Bulgaria working here? | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:01 | |
The wages are better here in Northern Ireland? | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
Yes, yes. Of course. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:05 | |
How often do you go back to Bulgaria? | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
One or two times per year I go over to see my parents. | 0:36:07 | 0:36:12 | |
My husband is here and I have a son here, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
my brother here, but my parents aren't here. | 0:36:15 | 0:36:17 | |
Gergana made me think about how a Brexit might affect her family. | 0:36:19 | 0:36:22 | |
I asked Bernadette McAliskey, an advocate for migrants, | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
what impact she thought the UK leaving the European Union | 0:36:28 | 0:36:31 | |
might have on immigrants already here. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:34 | |
From my perspective, | 0:36:34 | 0:36:36 | |
it adds to that feeling that you are simply being treated | 0:36:38 | 0:36:41 | |
as a commodity and not as a human being. | 0:36:41 | 0:36:46 | |
And adds to that sense that, if your labour could be wrung out of you, | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
your humanity would be left at the border. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:53 | |
I don't think the UK could limit the rights of people | 0:36:53 | 0:36:56 | |
already in the UK, but it would appear to be a very cold house, | 0:36:56 | 0:37:02 | |
and it would be a colder house for Northern Ireland | 0:37:02 | 0:37:05 | |
if its immigrant labour population up and left. | 0:37:05 | 0:37:08 | |
Analysts say the prospect of a British departure from the EU | 0:37:13 | 0:37:16 | |
raises questions about future immigration policy. | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
Many of our agri-food businesses, many of our tourism businesses | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
rely on European labour at this point in time. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:25 | |
So, the question is, | 0:37:25 | 0:37:27 | |
could local labour take that opportunity instead? | 0:37:27 | 0:37:29 | |
It is critical that we understand | 0:37:32 | 0:37:34 | |
what exactly the UK's position would be | 0:37:34 | 0:37:36 | |
so that we can understand, | 0:37:36 | 0:37:38 | |
both from the business perspective - can they get talent - | 0:37:38 | 0:37:40 | |
and from the individual perspective | 0:37:40 | 0:37:42 | |
as to whether we have any, or greater control, over our borders | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
which, emotive as it is, is clearly an important part | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
of what is going through voters' minds as they go to the ballot box. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:52 | |
At the other end of the fishing industry, | 0:37:57 | 0:37:59 | |
it is continued membership of the EU that is causing the headache. | 0:37:59 | 0:38:04 | |
I have two sons. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:06 | |
And, have they a future? You tell me! | 0:38:08 | 0:38:11 | |
You'll have an opportunity to vote in the referendum in June. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:16 | |
How will you vote? | 0:38:16 | 0:38:17 | |
As far as I'm concerned, for our industry, get out and stay out. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:21 | |
While some fishermen have had a long and difficult relationship | 0:38:26 | 0:38:30 | |
with the EU, it is often assumed that farmers look on it | 0:38:30 | 0:38:34 | |
more benignly. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:35 | |
But, as I chatted to the McGuinness family in South Armagh, | 0:38:35 | 0:38:38 | |
it was clear they thought the subsidies from the EU | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
were little better than a necessary evil. | 0:38:41 | 0:38:45 | |
It's interesting. Even around this table, you are out at the moment. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:49 | |
You're half in, half out. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
You're like the hokey cokey! | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
And you are pretty much stay in at the moment? | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
Would that be fair? | 0:38:58 | 0:39:00 | |
Yeah. It probably is, yeah. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:02 | |
What would life be like on this farm without subsidies, | 0:39:02 | 0:39:04 | |
if they were taken away? | 0:39:04 | 0:39:06 | |
We would much prefer to work without subsidies of any sort, | 0:39:06 | 0:39:10 | |
and most farmers would, like, but in the present climate you can't. | 0:39:10 | 0:39:16 | |
It's keeping the whole thing afloat. | 0:39:16 | 0:39:17 | |
It is not pushing anything forward. | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
There's men waiting on it, men hanging for it. | 0:39:21 | 0:39:23 | |
You'd rather not be waiting, begging the EU for money to keep going, | 0:39:23 | 0:39:28 | |
not even to expand or move forward. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
You know... | 0:39:31 | 0:39:33 | |
No money to reinvest, you know what I mean? | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
Nothing to put back in. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:37 | |
The McGuinness family were split down the middle | 0:39:52 | 0:39:54 | |
about whether to stay in or get out. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:58 | |
So I decided to find out more about attitudes | 0:39:58 | 0:40:00 | |
within the farming community. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:03 | |
I asked the MP for South Down to meet me at a sheep mart | 0:40:03 | 0:40:06 | |
in Downpatrick. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:08 | |
I suppose you'll do lots of campaigning | 0:40:08 | 0:40:09 | |
over the next few months with the Assembly elections? | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
I have been doing quite a bit anyway, but I actually like | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
getting out and meeting the people. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
David Cameron goes to Europe and has an argument for UK farmers. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:26 | |
What does he come back with? | 0:40:26 | 0:40:27 | |
Normally, he comes back with basically nothing. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
They don't seem to listen. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:31 | |
It is more about Germany, France, and all the other countries. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:35 | |
If we went out of business in the morning, | 0:40:35 | 0:40:37 | |
I don't think them countries would give two hoots about us. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:41 | |
But you can argue better and negotiate better | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
if you're within the European Union than if you're outside it. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:48 | |
I'm saying just give reflection and consideration to that, | 0:40:48 | 0:40:52 | |
because my concern is concern for you and the pound in your pocket. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:56 | |
I think my vote would be to stay in the EEC mainly because today, | 0:40:58 | 0:41:03 | |
at this sale, the majority of sheep are sold and will be exported | 0:41:03 | 0:41:07 | |
to Southern Ireland for slaughter on Monday or Tuesday. | 0:41:07 | 0:41:10 | |
That would be more difficult for the buyers | 0:41:10 | 0:41:13 | |
and there'd be less money for the farmers | 0:41:13 | 0:41:15 | |
at the end of the day. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
Again, those in favour of a Brexit will say, if the UK were outside, | 0:41:17 | 0:41:21 | |
it would be much more flexible. | 0:41:21 | 0:41:24 | |
It could do a deal with Brazil one day and China the next. | 0:41:24 | 0:41:27 | |
It has not been widely published what deals are available | 0:41:27 | 0:41:33 | |
or what the systems will be after the exit. | 0:41:33 | 0:41:35 | |
You are worried about the uncertainty? | 0:41:36 | 0:41:38 | |
The uncertainty. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:39 | |
It was becoming clear that some farmers prefer the certainty | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
of life within the EU. | 0:41:50 | 0:41:51 | |
Others felt that leaving might be the radical change | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
that farming needed. | 0:41:56 | 0:41:57 | |
It reflected at wider mood. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:02 | |
A majority of CBI members in Northern Ireland | 0:42:02 | 0:42:04 | |
back staying in. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:06 | |
But businessmen I talked to preferred the status quo as well. | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
But, as I toured across Northern Ireland and beyond, | 0:42:11 | 0:42:14 | |
it was clear, also, that there were those who had much more | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
mixed feelings about the benefits of EU membership | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
for them and their families. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:21 | |
This morning, we are heading into Dundalk, | 0:42:37 | 0:42:39 | |
and the reason we are going there today is | 0:42:39 | 0:42:41 | |
because it is hosting a big conference on Brexit. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:45 | |
Specifically on some of the political and constitutional | 0:42:45 | 0:42:48 | |
implications of a Brexit. | 0:42:48 | 0:42:50 | |
There's a whole host of speakers. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:52 | |
I'm really looking forward to hearing what people have to say. | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
The delegates are discussing different political scenarios, | 0:42:57 | 0:43:00 | |
but the ambitions of one keynote speaker's party | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
dominates much of the chat. | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
The key message I wanted to give was that for those who want the UK | 0:43:06 | 0:43:12 | |
to remain within the European Union - the Scottish Government, | 0:43:12 | 0:43:14 | |
of course, within that - | 0:43:14 | 0:43:16 | |
we all have to do make a positive case to remain | 0:43:16 | 0:43:21 | |
within the European Union. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:22 | |
It's 18 months since Scotland voted to remain within the United Kingdom. | 0:43:22 | 0:43:27 | |
Many people, including some of the independence movement, | 0:43:27 | 0:43:31 | |
believed that another referendum was unlikely for many years. | 0:43:31 | 0:43:34 | |
Now, some believe it could happen more quickly. | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
If the UK votes to leave | 0:43:37 | 0:43:39 | |
and Scotland votes to stay in the European Union, | 0:43:39 | 0:43:42 | |
the demand from the people | 0:43:42 | 0:43:44 | |
for another referendum could be unstoppable. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:46 | |
That could be the material change | 0:43:46 | 0:43:48 | |
for another Scottish independence referendum. | 0:43:48 | 0:43:50 | |
In the event the Scottish decide on another referendum | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
and decide they are better outside the United Kingdom | 0:43:53 | 0:43:56 | |
and inside the European Union, | 0:43:56 | 0:43:58 | |
that begs all sorts of questions | 0:43:58 | 0:43:59 | |
about the long-term cohesion of the United Kingdom | 0:43:59 | 0:44:02 | |
as a single political entity, | 0:44:02 | 0:44:03 | |
and it begs all sorts of questions, for Northern Ireland in particular, | 0:44:03 | 0:44:07 | |
and maybe Unionists even more so. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:09 | |
So, Unionists who are in favour of Brexit | 0:44:09 | 0:44:11 | |
should maybe be careful what they wish for? | 0:44:11 | 0:44:14 | |
I would suggest so. | 0:44:14 | 0:44:15 | |
I sit behind the Scottish nationalists in Westminster. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:19 | |
I taunt them as often as I can | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
about their ill-fated campaign to leave the United Kingdom | 0:44:22 | 0:44:27 | |
and the fact that, if they had done so, | 0:44:27 | 0:44:29 | |
they would have been destitute | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
because of the way the price of oil has gone. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:35 | |
I am under no illusions. | 0:44:35 | 0:44:37 | |
It doesn't matter what excuse they need. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:39 | |
The Scottish nationalists will push for a referendum again | 0:44:39 | 0:44:41 | |
at some stage in the future. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:44 | |
Some observers believe that the impact of a Brexit on Scotland | 0:44:44 | 0:44:47 | |
could prompt a referendum here as well. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:50 | |
I think... there isn't a doubt, | 0:44:51 | 0:44:53 | |
that you would have a new referendum | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
in Scotland, which might take Scotland into independence | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
with membership of the European Union being a factor. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
And that, in turn, you might have a domino effect | 0:45:04 | 0:45:07 | |
which would then lead to a new border poll | 0:45:07 | 0:45:10 | |
because of the impact on Northern Ireland. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:13 | |
When my journey began, I was thinking more about one union, | 0:45:20 | 0:45:23 | |
the European Union. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
But as it's gone on, I've begun to think more about another union, | 0:45:25 | 0:45:29 | |
the union of the United Kingdom. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | |
As the 23rd of June approaches, politicians will seek to persuade us | 0:45:34 | 0:45:38 | |
that their view of the European Union is the right view. | 0:45:38 | 0:45:42 | |
I think it is vital | 0:45:42 | 0:45:43 | |
because it creates greater levels | 0:45:43 | 0:45:46 | |
of economic and social cohesion, | 0:45:46 | 0:45:48 | |
greater levels of understanding, and it is good for Northern Ireland. | 0:45:48 | 0:45:52 | |
The important thing about any democracy is that the people | 0:45:52 | 0:45:56 | |
who are elected to the parliament to make the decisions | 0:45:56 | 0:46:00 | |
ought to be capable of being held accountable. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
About ten days after Sammy Wilson told me this | 0:46:03 | 0:46:06 | |
I was looking back through the footage of our day together | 0:46:06 | 0:46:08 | |
at Carrickfergus market. | 0:46:08 | 0:46:10 | |
I noticed a conversation that had happened while I was out of earshot. | 0:46:10 | 0:46:15 | |
-SAMMY WILSON: -They're doing a wee programme, the BBC, | 0:46:15 | 0:46:17 | |
-about should we stay in the European Union or get out of it. -Uh-huh. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:20 | |
So, I'm going round talking to people | 0:46:20 | 0:46:22 | |
and they'll do an interview with me. | 0:46:22 | 0:46:24 | |
-I say get out of it. -Aye. Well, do you know...? | 0:46:24 | 0:46:26 | |
Between you and me, get the ethnics out, too. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:28 | |
You're absolutely right, you know? | 0:46:28 | 0:46:29 | |
I was talking to a girl this morning, you know. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:32 | |
I don't know if you know or not, but you see St Anne's Cathedral? | 0:46:32 | 0:46:35 | |
You're coming out of the church at night, | 0:46:35 | 0:46:37 | |
there are people laying on the porches of our Cathedral. | 0:46:37 | 0:46:39 | |
It's ridiculous. People in Northern Ireland sleeping rough and these | 0:46:39 | 0:46:43 | |
people are coming into the country and they're getting houses, | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
-and getting everything. -Yeah, yeah. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:47 | |
It's unbelievable. I don't agree with it at all. | 0:46:47 | 0:46:50 | |
We've been going around trying to find somebody who thinks | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
we should stay in and I haven't been able to find anybody. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:57 | |
I am happy to hear that! | 0:46:57 | 0:46:58 | |
They're not! | 0:46:58 | 0:47:00 | |
We're happy to find out what the truth is | 0:47:00 | 0:47:02 | |
-and you're in favour of leaving the EU? -Absolutely. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:07 | |
As we saw earlier in the programme, | 0:47:07 | 0:47:09 | |
I met other people in Carrickfergus | 0:47:09 | 0:47:11 | |
who expressed concern about immigration. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:13 | |
That will be part of the debate about the UK's membership | 0:47:13 | 0:47:16 | |
of the European Union. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:18 | |
But Mr Wilson's conversation with the man felt very different. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:22 | |
I, therefore, wrote to him to ask him what he meant when he appeared | 0:47:22 | 0:47:25 | |
agree with the comment, "Get the ethnics out, too." | 0:47:25 | 0:47:28 | |
In response, Mr Wilson asked whether the BBC was, | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
"having a laugh". | 0:47:31 | 0:47:34 | |
He went on to say, "I am not prepared to spend any more time | 0:47:34 | 0:47:37 | |
"being interviewed, giving you explanations | 0:47:37 | 0:47:40 | |
"or responding to what anyone would regard as a disgraceful request | 0:47:40 | 0:47:44 | |
"to facilitate your biased political slant to this programme." | 0:47:44 | 0:47:48 | |
In a statement today, the DUP said: | 0:47:48 | 0:47:50 | |
Later, Mr Wilson told BBC Newsline he had been taken out of context. | 0:48:02 | 0:48:07 | |
I agreed with the comments he made about leaving the EU. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
I was not agreeing with the comments he made about ethnic communities. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:16 | |
Let's listen again to what was said. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:21 | |
'They're doing a programme, the BBC, about should we stay | 0:48:22 | 0:48:25 | |
-'in the EU or get out of it.' -'Uh-huh.' | 0:48:25 | 0:48:26 | |
'So, I'm going round talking to people | 0:48:26 | 0:48:28 | |
'then they'll do an interview with me.' | 0:48:28 | 0:48:30 | |
-'I say get out of it.' -'Aye. Well, do you know...?' | 0:48:30 | 0:48:32 | |
'Between you and me, get the ethnics out, too.' | 0:48:32 | 0:48:34 | |
'You're absolutely right, you know?' | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
I have been asking people across Northern Ireland | 0:48:47 | 0:48:49 | |
how they feel about the European Union. | 0:48:49 | 0:48:51 | |
Some people have told me they like it, | 0:48:51 | 0:48:54 | |
others have told me they depend upon it, | 0:48:54 | 0:48:56 | |
and others have told me they loathe it. | 0:48:56 | 0:48:59 | |
My journey has come to an end now, but the question | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
is whether the UK's journey within the EU is going to continue | 0:49:02 | 0:49:06 | |
or whether it's going to come to an end as well. | 0:49:06 | 0:49:08 |