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PLAYERS SHOUT | 1:46:32 | 1:46:35 | |
It's one of the most successful | 1:46:35 | 1:46:37 | |
amateur sporting organisations in the world. | 1:46:37 | 1:46:40 | |
Every night of the week, young people give their all | 1:46:40 | 1:46:44 | |
in GAA clubs like this. | 1:46:44 | 1:46:46 | |
Here in West Belfast, there's only one thing missing - | 1:46:49 | 1:46:54 | |
a modern stadium. | 1:46:54 | 1:46:56 | |
And this - the dream. | 1:46:56 | 1:46:59 | |
This video, produced by the GAA, | 1:46:59 | 1:47:01 | |
showed the ambitious vision for Casement Park, | 1:47:01 | 1:47:04 | |
to make it the biggest stadium in Northern Ireland. | 1:47:04 | 1:47:07 | |
In 2013, they got planning permission for 38,000 people. | 1:47:09 | 1:47:13 | |
The new ground was meant to be up and running by now. | 1:47:13 | 1:47:16 | |
It was earmarked for some of the biggest games in the GAA calendar. | 1:47:16 | 1:47:20 | |
It was also to be used for big conferences and pop concerts. | 1:47:20 | 1:47:24 | |
But the reality couldn't be more different. | 1:47:28 | 1:47:32 | |
Casement Park has now been derelict for three years. | 1:47:34 | 1:47:38 | |
The development stalled because | 1:47:40 | 1:47:41 | |
some residents were so fiercely opposed to the plan, | 1:47:41 | 1:47:44 | |
they raised £60,000 to go to court. | 1:47:44 | 1:47:47 | |
They won a judicial review and got the planning application thrown out. | 1:47:47 | 1:47:51 | |
Despite that setback, the GAA are still determined | 1:47:51 | 1:47:55 | |
to build a big stadium on this site. | 1:47:55 | 1:47:59 | |
Today, the GAA launched the first in a series of events | 1:47:59 | 1:48:02 | |
intended to hear people's views on a proposed new stadium, | 1:48:02 | 1:48:06 | |
though the full details are not yet known. | 1:48:06 | 1:48:09 | |
It's getting ready to put in a new application in the autumn. | 1:48:09 | 1:48:13 | |
You can see the old stadium when you arrive into Belfast on the M1. | 1:48:17 | 1:48:21 | |
It's here at the junction | 1:48:25 | 1:48:26 | |
which leads you into the west of the city. | 1:48:26 | 1:48:28 | |
You know you're at Casement Park when you see those big floodlights. | 1:48:30 | 1:48:33 | |
This area was countryside back in 1953 | 1:48:38 | 1:48:42 | |
when the locals raised the money for the original stadium. | 1:48:42 | 1:48:45 | |
The stands were built from old American Air Force girders. | 1:48:45 | 1:48:49 | |
For many years, the GAA has wanted a provincial stadium for Ulster. | 1:48:51 | 1:48:56 | |
The model would be Croke Park, the jewel in the crown. | 1:49:02 | 1:49:06 | |
To play here is really the dream of every GAA player, | 1:49:13 | 1:49:16 | |
and when you come here, you can see why. | 1:49:16 | 1:49:19 | |
It really is a breath-taking stadium. | 1:49:19 | 1:49:21 | |
It holds about 82,000 people. | 1:49:21 | 1:49:23 | |
What the GAA wants is a smaller version of this, | 1:49:23 | 1:49:26 | |
right in the heart of West Belfast. | 1:49:26 | 1:49:29 | |
The people of West Belfast have been looking forward to the redevelopment | 1:49:29 | 1:49:33 | |
of Casement Park for some time. | 1:49:33 | 1:49:34 | |
And I think Casement will be a significant sports stadium | 1:49:34 | 1:49:37 | |
but it'll also be a community facility, a facility where people | 1:49:37 | 1:49:40 | |
can turn up, they can meet up, activities will happen there. | 1:49:40 | 1:49:43 | |
It'll be a stadium that'll be used 365 days of the year at a low level. | 1:49:43 | 1:49:46 | |
Sinn Fein backed the prestige project for West Belfast. | 1:49:49 | 1:49:53 | |
The party is keen to use public money | 1:49:53 | 1:49:56 | |
to regenerate the constituency, | 1:49:56 | 1:49:59 | |
where, until recently, it held five of the six Assembly seats. | 1:49:59 | 1:50:04 | |
And when cash became available for new sports grounds, | 1:50:04 | 1:50:07 | |
Sinn Fein made sure West Belfast was at the front of the queue. | 1:50:07 | 1:50:11 | |
The Northern Ireland Executive pledged public money to build | 1:50:15 | 1:50:18 | |
three sports grounds at Ravenhill, Windsor and Casement Park. | 1:50:18 | 1:50:22 | |
Ravenhill got £15 million. | 1:50:23 | 1:50:26 | |
Windsor got £25 million. | 1:50:26 | 1:50:30 | |
By far the biggest sum was pledged to Casement - £62 million. | 1:50:30 | 1:50:35 | |
On top of that, the GAA agreed to put in £15 million of its own. | 1:50:37 | 1:50:42 | |
Why does the stadium have to be in West Belfast? | 1:50:44 | 1:50:47 | |
In March 2011, the Executive agreed three stadia for Belfast. | 1:50:47 | 1:50:52 | |
So, to be frank, that's what the Executive agreed in March 2011. | 1:50:52 | 1:50:57 | |
So the money wouldn't be available | 1:50:57 | 1:50:59 | |
if the GAA wanted to go somewhere else? | 1:50:59 | 1:51:01 | |
No, it wouldn't be available. | 1:51:01 | 1:51:03 | |
That's not my understanding of it at all. | 1:51:03 | 1:51:05 | |
Bridghidin Heenan lives beside Casement Park and, | 1:51:09 | 1:51:12 | |
like many other people in West Belfast, | 1:51:12 | 1:51:15 | |
couldn't be more excited that a spectacular new stadium | 1:51:15 | 1:51:18 | |
is coming to her area. | 1:51:18 | 1:51:20 | |
You don't take your provincial stadium and put it in... | 1:51:22 | 1:51:25 | |
..you know... | 1:51:27 | 1:51:29 | |
somewhere... I don't want to insult any Ballygawley roundabout. | 1:51:29 | 1:51:32 | |
But, you know, you put it in your premier location. | 1:51:32 | 1:51:35 | |
We have come through such a long time of hard... | 1:51:35 | 1:51:41 | |
you know, hard times and political unrest | 1:51:41 | 1:51:43 | |
and all the stuff that went through it. Let's get happy stories. | 1:51:43 | 1:51:46 | |
But that location is proving a major problem. | 1:51:48 | 1:51:51 | |
That and the scale. | 1:51:51 | 1:51:53 | |
At its highest point, the stadium was due to be 36 metres, | 1:51:58 | 1:52:03 | |
a big problem for some people living nearby. | 1:52:03 | 1:52:06 | |
One of the residents' objections to this proposal | 1:52:18 | 1:52:20 | |
was its sheer size. They worried that it would dwarf their houses. | 1:52:20 | 1:52:24 | |
And when you come up in this hoist, | 1:52:24 | 1:52:25 | |
you really do get a sense of the scale of what was planned. | 1:52:25 | 1:52:28 | |
The GAA wanted a stadium which would tower over these streets. | 1:52:28 | 1:52:32 | |
I know very few people in this area who don't want to see it, | 1:52:40 | 1:52:43 | |
but it's the sheer scale and size of the thing. | 1:52:43 | 1:52:46 | |
We're definitely not against it being re-developed. | 1:52:50 | 1:52:53 | |
It's just the size and capacity of it. | 1:52:53 | 1:52:55 | |
Some of those who opposed the plan include life-long GAA supporters. | 1:52:59 | 1:53:03 | |
Pat McManus has been involved with hurling for 73 years. | 1:53:05 | 1:53:10 | |
There's no game in the world to compare with hurling. | 1:53:10 | 1:53:14 | |
It's an outstanding game. | 1:53:14 | 1:53:15 | |
-Did you play in Croke Park? -I did play in Croke Park, yes. | 1:53:15 | 1:53:18 | |
-What was that like? -Very special. Very special. | 1:53:18 | 1:53:22 | |
That's one of the reasons I would like this place here fixed up | 1:53:22 | 1:53:26 | |
and games for young people in it. | 1:53:26 | 1:53:30 | |
If they can get out there, it's something special. | 1:53:30 | 1:53:34 | |
I would not want concerts in it... | 1:53:34 | 1:53:37 | |
-How worried are you about that? -..just for the sake of making money. | 1:53:39 | 1:53:44 | |
The residents' concerns were about scale and disruption. | 1:53:44 | 1:53:48 | |
For others, safety was the big issue. | 1:53:48 | 1:53:52 | |
Paul Scott is one of Northern Ireland's foremost safety experts. | 1:53:58 | 1:54:03 | |
From the Tall Ships to the Belfast marathon, | 1:54:03 | 1:54:05 | |
when people are enjoying themselves, his job has been to keep them safe. | 1:54:05 | 1:54:10 | |
Sometimes health and safety people | 1:54:10 | 1:54:12 | |
are characterised as being there to spoil people's fun. | 1:54:12 | 1:54:15 | |
The safest event is an event which we don't have any spectators at. | 1:54:15 | 1:54:19 | |
So we don't want that to happen. We want the people to come, | 1:54:19 | 1:54:22 | |
we want them to be safe, and we want them to have an enjoyable time. | 1:54:22 | 1:54:26 | |
Paul Scott was the civil servant | 1:54:26 | 1:54:28 | |
in charge of making sure the new stadium was safe. | 1:54:28 | 1:54:31 | |
It was the responsibility | 1:54:31 | 1:54:32 | |
of a body called the Safety Technical Group, | 1:54:32 | 1:54:35 | |
which he chaired. | 1:54:35 | 1:54:36 | |
He'd already overseen safety at Ravenhill and Windsor. | 1:54:36 | 1:54:40 | |
But from the very start, he'd had concerns about Casement. | 1:54:40 | 1:54:44 | |
With the GAA pressing ahead with the project, | 1:54:44 | 1:54:47 | |
he decided to go public. | 1:54:47 | 1:54:49 | |
About a year ago, Paul Scott dropped a bombshell. | 1:54:49 | 1:54:53 | |
A Sports Northern Ireland official who's an expert in stadium safety | 1:54:56 | 1:54:59 | |
told MLAs that he had been bullied and put under pressure | 1:54:59 | 1:55:03 | |
to change his opinion about emergency exiting | 1:55:03 | 1:55:06 | |
at the newly designed GAA ground. | 1:55:06 | 1:55:09 | |
From that moment on, safety would become the overriding issue. | 1:55:09 | 1:55:13 | |
I'm just turning left here onto the Andersonstown Road. | 1:55:19 | 1:55:23 | |
This really must be one of the busiest main roads in Belfast. | 1:55:23 | 1:55:28 | |
Most of the time when you come up here, | 1:55:29 | 1:55:32 | |
the traffic is really bumper to bumper. | 1:55:32 | 1:55:34 | |
It's a very, very busy road. | 1:55:34 | 1:55:36 | |
The Casement site is right in the middle of a horseshoe of houses. | 1:55:42 | 1:55:48 | |
The main exits are here at the Andersonstown Road. | 1:55:48 | 1:55:52 | |
The majority of people in the stadium, | 1:55:52 | 1:55:54 | |
around 72%, | 1:55:54 | 1:55:56 | |
would normally leave that way, and the other 28% through side exits. | 1:55:56 | 1:56:03 | |
But if the Andersonstown Road were closed, say because of an accident, | 1:56:03 | 1:56:08 | |
thousands of spectators would have to leave through the side exits. | 1:56:08 | 1:56:12 | |
Paul Scott's concern was the 38,000 that would have been seated | 1:56:12 | 1:56:16 | |
in the original plan couldn't get to safety quickly enough. | 1:56:16 | 1:56:19 | |
Paul Scott and other safety experts say that in an emergency situation, | 1:56:21 | 1:56:27 | |
people need to be away from danger in eight minutes. | 1:56:27 | 1:56:30 | |
After that, panic sets in. | 1:56:30 | 1:56:33 | |
It has got to be remembered that of all...most of the disasters | 1:56:34 | 1:56:39 | |
at sporting venues, entertainment venues, and like venues, | 1:56:39 | 1:56:44 | |
it is the panic and the crushing that kills the people. | 1:56:44 | 1:56:48 | |
It's not the primary incident. | 1:56:48 | 1:56:49 | |
It's not the fire, it's not the disorder, it is the crushing. | 1:56:49 | 1:56:53 | |
And why is it particularly likely to happen at Casement Park? | 1:56:55 | 1:57:00 | |
Because we do not have a suitable number of exits | 1:57:00 | 1:57:03 | |
at appropriate locations around the venue. | 1:57:03 | 1:57:06 | |
We are trying to get 38,000 people outside exits | 1:57:06 | 1:57:10 | |
which are suitable for about 15,000. | 1:57:10 | 1:57:13 | |
This is Paul Scott's first interview | 1:57:13 | 1:57:15 | |
since he publicly identified his safety concerns. | 1:57:15 | 1:57:19 | |
I believe in the public interest and in public safety. | 1:57:19 | 1:57:22 | |
It is important that these issues are properly aired. | 1:57:22 | 1:57:26 | |
I have a duty to raise those issues. | 1:57:26 | 1:57:30 | |
His analysis of the problem has been backed by the PSNI, | 1:57:31 | 1:57:35 | |
ambulance service and the fire service. | 1:57:35 | 1:57:38 | |
..this role since February 2014. | 1:57:38 | 1:57:40 | |
To get a sense of the potential capacity for Casement, | 1:57:40 | 1:57:43 | |
this is what 38,000 people looks like, | 1:57:43 | 1:57:47 | |
here at last month's London Marathon. | 1:57:47 | 1:57:49 | |
In the worst-case scenario, with the Andersonstown Road closed, | 1:57:51 | 1:57:56 | |
the only place for people to go once they're out of the stadium is here, | 1:57:56 | 1:58:00 | |
the streets around Casement. | 1:58:00 | 1:58:02 | |
38,000 people proposed in the original plan | 1:58:05 | 1:58:08 | |
would flood onto these streets... | 1:58:08 | 1:58:10 | |
..with just one way out, through this narrow path. | 1:58:15 | 1:58:19 | |
SIREN BLARES | 1:58:24 | 1:58:26 | |
And that would lead them onto this busy roundabout | 1:58:26 | 1:58:28 | |
where the M1 joins West Belfast. | 1:58:28 | 1:58:31 | |
Professor Phil Scraton has spent years campaigning for the families | 1:58:35 | 1:58:39 | |
of those killed at Hillsborough, Britain's worst stadium disaster. | 1:58:39 | 1:58:44 | |
He, too, has concerns about safety at Casement. | 1:58:44 | 1:58:47 | |
He is worried about people coming in as well as people going out. | 1:58:47 | 1:58:52 | |
It's very difficult to use Hillsborough as the foundation | 1:58:52 | 1:58:56 | |
for a critique of the new development here. | 1:58:56 | 1:59:00 | |
However, having said that, | 1:59:00 | 1:59:02 | |
there is one similarity that really does concern me | 1:59:02 | 1:59:05 | |
and that is the build-up outside Hillsborough, | 1:59:05 | 1:59:08 | |
at the Leppings Lane end outside the ground, | 1:59:08 | 1:59:11 | |
that build-up came from an arterial road | 1:59:11 | 1:59:15 | |
precisely because it had to service one end of the stadium | 1:59:15 | 1:59:19 | |
and one half of the stadium and another grandstand, | 1:59:19 | 1:59:23 | |
so nearly half of the full capacity | 1:59:23 | 1:59:27 | |
were going in through one end. | 1:59:27 | 1:59:28 | |
My concern with Casement Park is that people coming in, | 1:59:28 | 1:59:33 | |
off the Andytown Road into that end of the stadium, | 1:59:33 | 1:59:37 | |
so many people all at once, it puts a tremendous concentration. | 1:59:37 | 1:59:42 | |
-Is it dangerous? -Well, to ask the question about | 1:59:42 | 1:59:46 | |
whether something is dangerous is a real problem for me, | 1:59:46 | 1:59:49 | |
because it writes a headline for the newspapers | 1:59:49 | 1:59:52 | |
and I don't want to be quoted | 1:59:52 | 1:59:54 | |
by anybody as saying this is implicitly a dangerous situation. | 1:59:54 | 1:59:59 | |
This is not a stadium that would be built | 1:59:59 | 2:00:01 | |
if we were moving from scratch. | 2:00:01 | 2:00:03 | |
And, therefore, there are danger points | 2:00:03 | 2:00:06 | |
that are absolutely clear for anybody to see. | 2:00:06 | 2:00:09 | |
Paul Scott says he was reporting his concerns about safety | 2:00:10 | 2:00:14 | |
to the Department of Culture, Arts & Leisure, or DCAL. | 2:00:14 | 2:00:17 | |
He says the department tried to pressurise him | 2:00:18 | 2:00:21 | |
into changing the reports. | 2:00:21 | 2:00:22 | |
One DCAL official noted Paul Scott's assertion | 2:00:25 | 2:00:28 | |
that full capacity might not be possible was "unacceptable". | 2:00:28 | 2:00:32 | |
On another occasion he was told that his safety report was, | 2:00:34 | 2:00:38 | |
"At odds with the department's requirements." | 2:00:38 | 2:00:41 | |
We were left wondering, has no-one heard of Hillsborough? | 2:00:41 | 2:00:45 | |
Has no-one heard of Bradford? Has no-one heard of the other disasters? | 2:00:45 | 2:00:48 | |
They are essentially asking 38,000 people to be accommodated | 2:00:50 | 2:00:54 | |
in a venue with an emergency evacuation capacity of 15 to 16,000. | 2:00:54 | 2:00:59 | |
So when these notes were coming back to you | 2:00:59 | 2:01:01 | |
and they were asking you to change, how were you feeling at that point? | 2:01:01 | 2:01:04 | |
Incredulous that here is representatives | 2:01:04 | 2:01:08 | |
of a government department charged with the safety of spectators | 2:01:08 | 2:01:13 | |
asking us to break the rules. | 2:01:13 | 2:01:16 | |
And were you...? | 2:01:16 | 2:01:18 | |
Were you under pressure to break the rules, did you feel? | 2:01:18 | 2:01:21 | |
We were told what was expected of us. | 2:01:21 | 2:01:24 | |
We were... | 2:01:24 | 2:01:25 | |
Yes, we got e-mails asking us to change our report. | 2:01:25 | 2:01:29 | |
The department told us it had ordered an independent investigation | 2:01:31 | 2:01:35 | |
to see if there was any evidence of misconduct by their officials | 2:01:35 | 2:01:39 | |
and the inquiry report rejected Paul Scott's allegations. | 2:01:39 | 2:01:43 | |
But Paul Scott wasn't prepared to sign off on a 38,000-seater stadium | 2:01:45 | 2:01:50 | |
until his concerns about emergency exiting were addressed. | 2:01:50 | 2:01:54 | |
One of the difficulties | 2:01:55 | 2:01:56 | |
in overcoming the emergency exiting problem | 2:01:56 | 2:01:59 | |
was that some homes and gardens | 2:01:59 | 2:02:01 | |
are tight up against the walls of the stadium. | 2:02:01 | 2:02:04 | |
-I asked in the chemist's next door and they said... -Thank you. | 2:02:07 | 2:02:10 | |
-..they couldn't tell me what time he'd be back at. -Right. | 2:02:10 | 2:02:14 | |
77-year-old Bobby Murray and his wife Sheila | 2:02:14 | 2:02:17 | |
have lived next to Casement for 48 years. | 2:02:17 | 2:02:20 | |
Recently, Bobby had to have his legs amputated after an accident. | 2:02:22 | 2:02:27 | |
But what I intend to do is get a ramp down on these steps | 2:02:27 | 2:02:31 | |
and be able to drive down into the garden there | 2:02:31 | 2:02:36 | |
and just sit there and pass the time. | 2:02:36 | 2:02:39 | |
What sort of effect has the proposed Casement development had? | 2:02:39 | 2:02:43 | |
Well, I think it is going to destroy my daylight, | 2:02:43 | 2:02:48 | |
because they are talking about building | 2:02:48 | 2:02:51 | |
at nearly the height of that lamp up yonder. | 2:02:51 | 2:02:53 | |
I have a good fear of an emergency | 2:03:03 | 2:03:07 | |
and me being out there trying to get into my vehicle, | 2:03:07 | 2:03:09 | |
I would be in big trouble. | 2:03:09 | 2:03:12 | |
I need to park at my door. | 2:03:12 | 2:03:14 | |
They will be coming along to say I am not allowed to park there. | 2:03:14 | 2:03:18 | |
I don't know whether they can do it or not. | 2:03:18 | 2:03:20 | |
After four years of uncertainty, | 2:03:20 | 2:03:22 | |
some residents are considering selling up. | 2:03:22 | 2:03:25 | |
But not everyone. | 2:03:26 | 2:03:28 | |
I want to see my days out here, cos I love this place. | 2:03:28 | 2:03:31 | |
It's up to the GAA to solve the emergency exiting problem. | 2:03:35 | 2:03:39 | |
Spotlight has uncovered a confidential proposal it had | 2:03:39 | 2:03:43 | |
to knock down houses to create more space. | 2:03:43 | 2:03:47 | |
The question is, is that still part of its plan? | 2:03:47 | 2:03:50 | |
What happened before is that there were options being looked at | 2:03:50 | 2:03:53 | |
in relation to the emergency exiting situation at Casement Park. | 2:03:53 | 2:03:56 | |
So you can give a cast-iron guarantee | 2:03:56 | 2:03:58 | |
there won't be any houses demolished as part of this process? | 2:03:58 | 2:04:01 | |
No cast-iron guarantees... | 2:04:01 | 2:04:02 | |
-You said there were no plans. -I'm saying there are no plans, | 2:04:02 | 2:04:05 | |
but I'm saying that we can't give cast-iron guarantees, | 2:04:05 | 2:04:07 | |
cos it's too early in the design process. | 2:04:07 | 2:04:09 | |
But you're leaving open the possibility. | 2:04:09 | 2:04:11 | |
What we're saying is that it is a design development process | 2:04:11 | 2:04:13 | |
that has just got re-started and it hasn't concluded | 2:04:13 | 2:04:16 | |
and we're not in that position. | 2:04:16 | 2:04:18 | |
OK. The reason I'm asking that is we have a document here. | 2:04:18 | 2:04:22 | |
I just want to show you, and you can tell me whether or not | 2:04:22 | 2:04:24 | |
that's still on the table, or whether that's been ruled out. | 2:04:24 | 2:04:28 | |
This is... | 2:04:31 | 2:04:33 | |
one of the ways in which the... | 2:04:33 | 2:04:35 | |
..emergency exiting problem could have been resolved. | 2:04:36 | 2:04:39 | |
Will you just explain to me a bit about what it means? | 2:04:39 | 2:04:43 | |
I think that you're referring to a document | 2:04:43 | 2:04:45 | |
that was produced at the CAL Committee. | 2:04:45 | 2:04:47 | |
I think it's already been discussed and because we're not any longer | 2:04:47 | 2:04:50 | |
talking about that design and that process, | 2:04:50 | 2:04:53 | |
I don't think the GAA needs to comment any further on that. | 2:04:53 | 2:04:56 | |
But what does this show? | 2:04:56 | 2:04:57 | |
I think this is going into... | 2:05:00 | 2:05:02 | |
..territory we're not prepared to get involved in, Conor, | 2:05:04 | 2:05:06 | |
-to be honest. -Why not? -Because this scheme's not being developed. | 2:05:06 | 2:05:10 | |
This is dated from after the last planning application. | 2:05:10 | 2:05:14 | |
This was, it seems to me, | 2:05:15 | 2:05:17 | |
an attempt to deal with the emergency exiting problem. | 2:05:17 | 2:05:19 | |
And what this shows | 2:05:21 | 2:05:23 | |
are red lines, which are the flow of people out of the stadium. | 2:05:23 | 2:05:27 | |
-Is that right? -That's what it is, yeah. | 2:05:28 | 2:05:31 | |
In the drawing, the red lines go through... | 2:05:31 | 2:05:33 | |
..one, two, three, four, five houses. | 2:05:35 | 2:05:38 | |
And did the GAA tell the people in those houses | 2:05:39 | 2:05:42 | |
-that they had this plan? -No. | 2:05:42 | 2:05:43 | |
Was it appropriate to be thinking about solving problems | 2:05:43 | 2:05:47 | |
by demolishing people's houses and not telling the people? | 2:05:47 | 2:05:50 | |
I think it's appropriate in the sense that people were telling us | 2:05:50 | 2:05:53 | |
we had a problem. We were looking at potential solutions to that problem. | 2:05:53 | 2:05:57 | |
But that process has now finished. | 2:05:57 | 2:05:59 | |
We have been to talk to some of these people | 2:05:59 | 2:06:01 | |
who live on Mooreland Drive and that's one of the exits there. | 2:06:01 | 2:06:05 | |
This guy here, who lives in this house, Bobby Murray... | 2:06:05 | 2:06:09 | |
That's the purpose of the consultation process | 2:06:09 | 2:06:11 | |
and I would expect we'll be talking to Mr Murray. | 2:06:11 | 2:06:13 | |
So you can assure Bobby Murray | 2:06:13 | 2:06:14 | |
that you will be making no attempt whatsoever | 2:06:14 | 2:06:16 | |
to demolish his house? | 2:06:16 | 2:06:17 | |
I can't make any assurances | 2:06:17 | 2:06:19 | |
in relation to how the design will finish up. | 2:06:19 | 2:06:22 | |
What I will say that's factual at this minute in time - | 2:06:22 | 2:06:25 | |
the GAA has no plans of that nature. | 2:06:25 | 2:06:27 | |
But Paul Scott is clear there are only two possibilities | 2:06:29 | 2:06:33 | |
to make the stadium safe. | 2:06:33 | 2:06:34 | |
First of all, the capacity can be reduced. | 2:06:35 | 2:06:38 | |
Or, alternatively, homes could be demolished | 2:06:39 | 2:06:43 | |
to create additional exits both immediately away from the stadium | 2:06:43 | 2:06:48 | |
and from the surrounding area. | 2:06:48 | 2:06:50 | |
OK. And what capacity do you think reasonably can be put on that site? | 2:06:52 | 2:06:56 | |
If the homes are demolished, you could get the 38,000 on the site. | 2:06:57 | 2:07:01 | |
However, if homes are not purchased and demolished, | 2:07:01 | 2:07:04 | |
you're looking at high teens. | 2:07:04 | 2:07:07 | |
Some residents are worried demolishing houses | 2:07:09 | 2:07:12 | |
will be back on the table. | 2:07:12 | 2:07:13 | |
It seems that in all the time we were being talked to, | 2:07:14 | 2:07:18 | |
there were people somewhere considering | 2:07:18 | 2:07:21 | |
that in order to make this work, | 2:07:21 | 2:07:22 | |
houses would have to be knocked down. | 2:07:22 | 2:07:24 | |
I think that if they have to go down that line, they have lost. | 2:07:24 | 2:07:28 | |
We went to see some of the residents | 2:07:29 | 2:07:31 | |
who might have been directly affected | 2:07:31 | 2:07:33 | |
by the old secret demolition proposal. | 2:07:33 | 2:07:36 | |
I just wanted to show you this drawing. | 2:07:39 | 2:07:41 | |
These red lines are the flow of people out of the stadium. | 2:07:41 | 2:07:44 | |
-And that red line is going through your house there. -Is it? | 2:07:45 | 2:07:49 | |
-Yeah, have you seen this before? -No, I've never. | 2:07:49 | 2:07:52 | |
That's shocking. Nobody's told me. | 2:07:52 | 2:07:56 | |
Did the GAA tell you about it? | 2:07:56 | 2:07:57 | |
No, the GAA haven't spoke to me at all. | 2:07:57 | 2:08:01 | |
They haven't spoke to me or said anything. | 2:08:01 | 2:08:04 | |
It is important to stress that the GAA have told us | 2:08:04 | 2:08:06 | |
this is an old plan. | 2:08:06 | 2:08:08 | |
-Yeah. -How do you feel when you see this? | 2:08:08 | 2:08:11 | |
I feel angry. I feel very angry. | 2:08:11 | 2:08:13 | |
I mean... | 2:08:14 | 2:08:16 | |
What can I say? | 2:08:16 | 2:08:17 | |
I'm... I'm absolutely gobsmacked, really... | 2:08:18 | 2:08:22 | |
It really is... It's hard to take in. | 2:08:23 | 2:08:26 | |
I mean, is there anybody going to help us here, you know? | 2:08:26 | 2:08:30 | |
The Murrays' house is just around the corner. | 2:08:32 | 2:08:35 | |
What this plan would mean | 2:08:37 | 2:08:39 | |
is that your house wouldn't be there any more. | 2:08:39 | 2:08:41 | |
My house would be gone? Right. | 2:08:41 | 2:08:45 | |
Didn't know that. | 2:08:45 | 2:08:47 | |
I tell you what, I don't like it one piece. | 2:08:47 | 2:08:50 | |
Definitely not. It's a surprise to me. | 2:08:50 | 2:08:52 | |
And as a matter of fact, it's not a surprise, it's a disaster to me. | 2:08:54 | 2:08:58 | |
This is the best place I've ever lived in my lifetime. | 2:08:58 | 2:09:01 | |
We've spoken to the GAA about it, | 2:09:01 | 2:09:04 | |
and they have told us that it's an old plan | 2:09:04 | 2:09:05 | |
-and it's currently off the table. -Right. | 2:09:05 | 2:09:09 | |
I definitely don't want to move from here. | 2:09:09 | 2:09:12 | |
Cos look at me, I've no legs. | 2:09:12 | 2:09:13 | |
Where am I going to go? | 2:09:13 | 2:09:15 | |
Definitely not. | 2:09:18 | 2:09:19 | |
In a statement since our interview, | 2:09:21 | 2:09:23 | |
the GAA told us the demolition scenario we uncovered | 2:09:23 | 2:09:27 | |
was now obsolete and would not be part of a new planning application. | 2:09:27 | 2:09:31 | |
It pointed out it does not itself have compulsory purchase powers | 2:09:32 | 2:09:37 | |
and has now said the development of Casement Park | 2:09:37 | 2:09:40 | |
will not involve the compulsory purchase of any properties. | 2:09:40 | 2:09:45 | |
It also said the capacity of a new stadium is not yet decided. | 2:09:45 | 2:09:49 | |
When Paul Scott went public with his safety concerns, | 2:09:51 | 2:09:54 | |
the former minister Caral Ni Chuilin | 2:09:54 | 2:09:56 | |
said it was the first time she'd heard about the issue. | 2:09:56 | 2:10:00 | |
But Spotlight has seen a report she was given six months before | 2:10:00 | 2:10:04 | |
where emergency exiting at Casement is listed as an issue. | 2:10:04 | 2:10:08 | |
Here I can show you a document | 2:10:10 | 2:10:11 | |
and this is a report you were given at the sponsor board. | 2:10:11 | 2:10:14 | |
Under "issues", it says, | 2:10:14 | 2:10:15 | |
"Emergency evacuation plan to be further developed | 2:10:15 | 2:10:18 | |
"to meet GAA's need for a 38,000-capacity stadium." | 2:10:18 | 2:10:20 | |
-You were given that report six months... -That's not a report. | 2:10:20 | 2:10:22 | |
-..before you said it was an issue. -Excuse me. | 2:10:22 | 2:10:24 | |
I don't need you to read it out to me. I was at the meeting. | 2:10:24 | 2:10:27 | |
-You chaired the meeting. -I chaired the meeting. | 2:10:27 | 2:10:30 | |
-It says there was an issue. -No, it says it IS an issue... -Yeah. | 2:10:30 | 2:10:33 | |
..because an evacuation plan | 2:10:33 | 2:10:35 | |
is an issue for every major capital programme. | 2:10:35 | 2:10:39 | |
But it's under "issues". Issues mean problems. | 2:10:39 | 2:10:41 | |
No, issues mean things that need to be resolved. | 2:10:41 | 2:10:44 | |
-Problems need to be resolved. -No, issues that need to be resolved. | 2:10:44 | 2:10:46 | |
-So you did know about it at that stage? -No, I didn't. | 2:10:46 | 2:10:49 | |
'Paul Scott says he's been professionally undermined | 2:10:49 | 2:10:52 | |
'by having his advice ignored.' | 2:10:52 | 2:10:54 | |
It leaves you very angry | 2:10:54 | 2:10:56 | |
because you tried to do the right thing. | 2:10:56 | 2:10:59 | |
You brought the design problems, etc, | 2:10:59 | 2:11:02 | |
to the attention of the department, | 2:11:02 | 2:11:06 | |
and rather than being thanked for what you had done, | 2:11:06 | 2:11:13 | |
you have become the villain of the piece number one, | 2:11:13 | 2:11:16 | |
you have been maligned. | 2:11:16 | 2:11:17 | |
One of the reasons Paul Scott feels he's been maligned | 2:11:17 | 2:11:21 | |
is because of the findings of a special report | 2:11:21 | 2:11:24 | |
commissioned by the minister. | 2:11:24 | 2:11:25 | |
She asked Whitehall civil servants to look at his claims. | 2:11:25 | 2:11:29 | |
When their report came out, | 2:11:29 | 2:11:31 | |
it concluded that Paul Scott was mistaken | 2:11:31 | 2:11:33 | |
in some of his safety views, | 2:11:33 | 2:11:35 | |
and it recommended a new chairperson | 2:11:35 | 2:11:38 | |
for the Safety Technical Group. | 2:11:38 | 2:11:40 | |
This report basically said that you didn't know what you were doing. | 2:11:40 | 2:11:44 | |
-More or less. -And how does that feel at that point? | 2:11:44 | 2:11:48 | |
Devastating. Absolutely devastating. | 2:11:49 | 2:11:51 | |
It was one of the worst days of my life. | 2:11:51 | 2:11:54 | |
The crux of the dispute over that Whitehall report | 2:11:54 | 2:11:57 | |
centred on the use of the pitch in an emergency evacuation. | 2:11:57 | 2:12:01 | |
Paul Scott's view is that people shouldn't be held on the pitch | 2:12:01 | 2:12:04 | |
in an emergency, but the Whitehall report said the rules | 2:12:04 | 2:12:08 | |
didn't back him up. | 2:12:08 | 2:12:09 | |
That dispute is still subject to an on-going debate. | 2:12:09 | 2:12:13 | |
The former DCAL minister, | 2:12:13 | 2:12:16 | |
who had repeatedly promised to get Casement built, | 2:12:16 | 2:12:18 | |
was quick to emphasize the finding about the pitch. | 2:12:18 | 2:12:22 | |
The 20 recommendations | 2:12:22 | 2:12:23 | |
said that they needed to have a new Safety Technical Group | 2:12:23 | 2:12:26 | |
with many more experts | 2:12:26 | 2:12:28 | |
and certainly specialist advisors on that, | 2:12:28 | 2:12:31 | |
which has since happened. | 2:12:31 | 2:12:33 | |
They said, which was, I thought, very, very clear, | 2:12:33 | 2:12:38 | |
that, in terms of safety evacuation, that the pitch could be used. | 2:12:38 | 2:12:41 | |
But people need to be able to leave quickly | 2:12:41 | 2:12:44 | |
without being held on the pitch, | 2:12:44 | 2:12:46 | |
according to both the Sports Ground Safety Authority in Britain, | 2:12:46 | 2:12:49 | |
and Phil Scraton. | 2:12:49 | 2:12:50 | |
To say that people will be held on the pitch | 2:12:50 | 2:12:54 | |
is, to a large extent, hope rather than reality. | 2:12:54 | 2:12:57 | |
We're foreseeing that, hopefully, people won't panic. | 2:12:57 | 2:13:00 | |
That, hopefully, people would, in that circumstance, | 2:13:00 | 2:13:04 | |
receive instructions from stewards and just stay calm. | 2:13:04 | 2:13:09 | |
But if you're inside a stadium | 2:13:09 | 2:13:12 | |
and you're on a pitch and there's a major incident going off around you, | 2:13:12 | 2:13:16 | |
the one thing you have in your mind, | 2:13:16 | 2:13:19 | |
as we've seen in every single disaster, is getting out. | 2:13:19 | 2:13:23 | |
That's when you have the overloading of the exit points. | 2:13:23 | 2:13:27 | |
That's when you have congestion at the exit points. | 2:13:27 | 2:13:31 | |
And that is the real problem. | 2:13:31 | 2:13:33 | |
The GAA says if all goes well with its next planning application, | 2:13:34 | 2:13:38 | |
the new Casement could be open in 2019. | 2:13:38 | 2:13:41 | |
The GAA genuinely wants Casement to be in Ireland's second city, | 2:13:43 | 2:13:46 | |
a statement of the GAA's role, the GAA's relevance in the community, | 2:13:46 | 2:13:50 | |
and the people of West Belfast deserve that. | 2:13:50 | 2:13:53 | |
West Belfast would have its equivalent of the Titanic Quarter, | 2:13:53 | 2:13:57 | |
bringing tourism and investment to the area, | 2:13:57 | 2:14:00 | |
but there are still unanswered questions | 2:14:00 | 2:14:04 | |
about how to keep fans safe. | 2:14:04 | 2:14:06 | |
I understand that Casement Park is important - | 2:14:06 | 2:14:09 | |
it's a community facility - but however... | 2:14:09 | 2:14:13 | |
Whichever way I look at it | 2:14:13 | 2:14:15 | |
and however strongly I feel that stadia like that | 2:14:15 | 2:14:19 | |
have a meaning for the people who live in the area, | 2:14:19 | 2:14:22 | |
and of course I understand that, | 2:14:22 | 2:14:24 | |
the issue is, we cannot ever compromise crowd safety. | 2:14:24 | 2:14:29 | |
In 2015, there were over 1.5 million people went through Croke Park. | 2:14:29 | 2:14:33 | |
The GAA takes health and safety very, very importantly. | 2:14:33 | 2:14:36 | |
Whatever happens with the GAA's new planning application | 2:14:36 | 2:14:39 | |
in the coming months, | 2:14:39 | 2:14:41 | |
it looks like the battle over Casement will continue. | 2:14:41 | 2:14:44 | |
The challenge will be balancing | 2:14:44 | 2:14:47 | |
the interests of the hundreds of people living around the stadium | 2:14:47 | 2:14:51 | |
with those of the hundreds of thousands who will visit it, | 2:14:51 | 2:14:55 | |
and, above all, the issue of safety. | 2:14:55 | 2:14:59 |