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Good evening. Well, hasn't it been a dramatic few days, | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
since the vote to leave the EU? | 0:34:27 | 0:34:29 | |
The Tory and Labour parties are up to their necks | 0:34:29 | 0:34:31 | |
in leadership struggles at Westminster, | 0:34:31 | 0:34:34 | |
Nigel Farage is insulting MEPs in Brussels, | 0:34:34 | 0:34:36 | |
the Dail has been recalled, | 0:34:36 | 0:34:38 | |
Stormont has had an emergency debate. | 0:34:38 | 0:34:40 | |
Over the next hour, though, we'll try and cast some light | 0:34:40 | 0:34:42 | |
on what all of this means for Northern Ireland | 0:34:42 | 0:34:44 | |
and its relationship with the Republic. | 0:34:44 | 0:34:46 | |
We'll talk to the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, | 0:34:46 | 0:34:49 | |
and the former First Minister, Lord Trimble. | 0:34:49 | 0:34:51 | |
We'll hear a view from Scotland, | 0:34:51 | 0:34:53 | |
where a second independence referendum is on the cards, | 0:34:53 | 0:34:55 | |
and we'll learn the hopes and fears of a Polish family living here. | 0:34:55 | 0:34:59 | |
The Brexit vote has thrown up myriad questions about | 0:34:59 | 0:35:02 | |
the political and economic future of the United Kingdom. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
But in Northern Ireland, the answers are more complex, | 0:35:05 | 0:35:08 | |
because, of course, of our EU neighbours in the Republic. | 0:35:08 | 0:35:11 | |
Conor Spackman asks how it's all going down | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
along the border and elsewhere. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
The border areas of South Down and South Armagh | 0:35:27 | 0:35:30 | |
have been transformed since the end of the Troubles. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
The economy, once shrouded in gloom, | 0:35:34 | 0:35:37 | |
now seeing sunnier times. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
Here, many believe it wouldn't have happened | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
without the European Union. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:45 | |
The EU has been a big part of it in two ways. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
The Single European Act, when it was implemented in 1992, | 0:35:49 | 0:35:54 | |
the effect here was the removal of | 0:35:54 | 0:35:56 | |
customs barriers, and that was a removal to | 0:35:56 | 0:35:59 | |
the movement of goods, which liberated many businesses here. | 0:35:59 | 0:36:02 | |
But it also was a stakeholder in financing infrastructure. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
This area was devastated economically by partition. | 0:36:08 | 0:36:13 | |
That changed radically in the '90s and 2000s, and significant growth | 0:36:13 | 0:36:20 | |
within the local economy happened from the mid-1990s onwards, | 0:36:20 | 0:36:25 | |
but it was exponential in the 2000s. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
Across Europe, the EU prioritises help | 0:36:34 | 0:36:37 | |
for peripheral regions which have been economically disadvantaged. | 0:36:37 | 0:36:41 | |
The village of Forkhill was once cut in two by a massive Army base, | 0:36:43 | 0:36:48 | |
but it's now derelict, and a prime site for development. | 0:36:48 | 0:36:52 | |
Bernard Boyle has big plans to use it to boost the local economy, | 0:36:52 | 0:36:56 | |
but he was counting on EU money. | 0:36:56 | 0:36:59 | |
We had anticipated that we would get | 0:37:00 | 0:37:02 | |
funding from Europe to build the business units, | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
and that funding, we can't see that... | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
There's a possibility that that's not going to happen now. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
You are not confident of getting it from Stormont | 0:37:10 | 0:37:12 | |
or even from Westminster? | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
Absolutely not, absolutely not, you know, we have already, | 0:37:14 | 0:37:17 | |
over the years, have lobbied Stormont and Westminster | 0:37:17 | 0:37:20 | |
as far as funding for sustainable projects | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
in this area is concerned, and we have been singularly unsuccessful. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:27 | |
For Bernard, it's not good enough | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
to say that the UK as a whole voted to Leave. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:33 | |
We see what the benefits of being in Europe are, but we have been | 0:37:33 | 0:37:36 | |
dragged out of Europe kicking and screaming, | 0:37:36 | 0:37:38 | |
whereas we wanted to remain. | 0:37:38 | 0:37:41 | |
It may be seen as a democratic process, | 0:37:41 | 0:37:43 | |
but it hasn't been democratic as far as we are concerned. | 0:37:43 | 0:37:47 | |
In Downpatrick, Oliver Gilchrist has a cattle farm | 0:37:50 | 0:37:55 | |
and trades across the border. | 0:37:55 | 0:37:57 | |
Even with uncertainty over subsidies, he voted for Brexit, | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
believing that Stormont and Westminster | 0:38:00 | 0:38:04 | |
would deliver more for farmers than Brussels. | 0:38:04 | 0:38:06 | |
I wasn't happy with the way the EU was telling us | 0:38:06 | 0:38:09 | |
what to do and bringing in all the new regulations | 0:38:09 | 0:38:12 | |
that we had to abide by. | 0:38:12 | 0:38:13 | |
That's the way I would have seen it. | 0:38:13 | 0:38:16 | |
And, and... | 0:38:16 | 0:38:18 | |
Just too many inspections, farm inspections | 0:38:18 | 0:38:21 | |
and too many people getting big money when farmers getting nothing. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
Who was getting the big money? | 0:38:24 | 0:38:26 | |
Well, the supermarkets, to start with. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:28 | |
The factories, and the thousands of bureaucrats | 0:38:28 | 0:38:31 | |
that were working in Brussels... | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
..that probably knew nothing about farming. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:37 | |
So, in a nutshell, you have lot more faith | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
in London, in Westminster, than you do in Brussels. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
100% more. I think you can't beat having a local government. | 0:38:43 | 0:38:47 | |
Ballymena exporter | 0:38:48 | 0:38:50 | |
and former chair of the Conservatives here, Irwin Armstrong, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:53 | |
also backed Brexit. He says fears of uncertainty are exaggerated. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:59 | |
Anybody in business knows the future is always very uncertain. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:03 | |
You make investment plans, | 0:39:03 | 0:39:05 | |
you don't know what's going to happen, | 0:39:05 | 0:39:07 | |
so this is not much different from that. | 0:39:07 | 0:39:09 | |
And he says complaints from places like South Armagh | 0:39:09 | 0:39:12 | |
that the vote is not really democratic are worrying. | 0:39:12 | 0:39:16 | |
I think we're in a very dangerous situation. | 0:39:16 | 0:39:18 | |
We represent about 2-3% of the United Kingdom, | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
and 2-3% cannot dictate to the rest of the country | 0:39:21 | 0:39:25 | |
what's going to happen, you know, | 0:39:25 | 0:39:27 | |
that is totally unconstitutional. | 0:39:27 | 0:39:29 | |
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, | 0:39:29 | 0:39:32 | |
and will have to operate as part of the United Kingdom. | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
Driving along narrow country lanes at the border, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:44 | |
often the only sign of going from north to south | 0:39:44 | 0:39:46 | |
is the chopping and changing of road signs - not like the old days. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:50 | |
Customs posts like this were | 0:39:53 | 0:39:55 | |
once symbols of the border between north and south. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:58 | |
But with Northern Ireland and the Republic | 0:39:58 | 0:40:00 | |
both members of the European Union, | 0:40:00 | 0:40:02 | |
with its rules on the free movements of goods, they became redundant. | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
Now, though, with Northern Ireland now set to leave the European Union, | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
the question is whether some sort of physical border, | 0:40:09 | 0:40:13 | |
perhaps customs posts or maybe even passport controls, | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
might have to be introduced. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:18 | |
That question remains unresolved. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:21 | |
Jonathan Powell, an architect of the Good Friday Agreement, | 0:40:24 | 0:40:28 | |
says open borders were important | 0:40:28 | 0:40:30 | |
in getting nationalists to buy into the peace process. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:33 | |
The Good Friday Agreement was based on | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
the idea that the border became less significant. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:39 | |
You remember all those concrete blocks that | 0:40:39 | 0:40:41 | |
blocked the lanes and byways of the border, | 0:40:41 | 0:40:42 | |
they were removed as part of the agreement. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:44 | |
We're going to end up with them back to stop people coming across, | 0:40:44 | 0:40:47 | |
so they go to customs posts and immigration controls. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:49 | |
It's going to really undermine part of the basis of the very agreement. | 0:40:49 | 0:40:53 | |
Unionists in favour of Brexit have dismissed fears of a hard border. | 0:40:53 | 0:40:58 | |
Theresa Villiers, though, the Secretary of State, | 0:40:59 | 0:41:01 | |
has said that the Common Travel Area | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
persisted throughout the war, | 0:41:04 | 0:41:05 | |
throughout the Troubles. Why are you not reassured by that? | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
Well, because she's completely missing the point. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:12 | |
The Common Travel Area goes right back in history to | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
the creation of Northern Ireland. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
The problem is that we've always had the same immigration policies, | 0:41:17 | 0:41:20 | |
and if we stop free movement of people around the European Union, | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
then you can't have an open border. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:25 | |
Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin says a hard border would be | 0:41:28 | 0:41:32 | |
a major step backwards. | 0:41:32 | 0:41:34 | |
I think it could do a lot of damage to the island of Ireland. | 0:41:34 | 0:41:38 | |
I think it could be exploited by forces who would use it | 0:41:38 | 0:41:42 | |
to pursue their own militant agendas. | 0:41:42 | 0:41:46 | |
And it is amazing how much we take for granted | 0:41:46 | 0:41:48 | |
when all of this has disappeared, it is only their re-introduction | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
will really bring it home to people, | 0:41:51 | 0:41:53 | |
the enormity of the decision that has been taken. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
So, therefore, I think it would be damaging. | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
Jonathan Powell believes that the possible reimposition | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
of a hard border may not be the only major consequence of Brexit. | 0:42:02 | 0:42:06 | |
I think it is really rather a serious threat | 0:42:06 | 0:42:08 | |
to the United Kingdom and its existence. | 0:42:08 | 0:42:10 | |
And it's slightly paradoxical that these people | 0:42:10 | 0:42:12 | |
who campaigned for Brexit, who are supposedly champions | 0:42:12 | 0:42:15 | |
of the United Kingdom have led to its possible demise. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:17 | |
It seems almost certain, after what Nicola Sturgeon said, | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
that we're going to end up with a referendum in Scotland. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
It seems extremely likely | 0:42:22 | 0:42:23 | |
that referendum will go for independence in Scotland. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:26 | |
But Irwin Armstrong doesn't believe | 0:42:26 | 0:42:28 | |
the north-south arrangements will be affected, | 0:42:28 | 0:42:31 | |
or that Scotland will become independent. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
There would be no reason for any change in the way we operate. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
I would encourage Nicola Sturgeon | 0:42:37 | 0:42:39 | |
to have another referendum if she actually wants one. | 0:42:39 | 0:42:42 | |
She knows she won't win it, the people know she won't win it, | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
and the people don't want it. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:46 | |
While Brexiteers stress | 0:42:46 | 0:42:47 | |
that little needs to change, | 0:42:47 | 0:42:49 | |
in South Armagh there's a feeling that things have already changed, | 0:42:49 | 0:42:53 | |
and new divides have opened up. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:56 | |
I think the challenge for those who proposed Brexit | 0:42:56 | 0:43:00 | |
actually is the map of how people voted Remain and Leave. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:06 | |
Because three-quarters of Belfast | 0:43:07 | 0:43:10 | |
voted to remain. | 0:43:10 | 0:43:12 | |
All but County Antrim and part of North Armagh, | 0:43:12 | 0:43:16 | |
North Down voted to remain, | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
and, therefore, there is a geopolitical dimension to this. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:22 | |
You know, Ulster, so often talked about out and so often used | 0:43:22 | 0:43:28 | |
as a moniker to describe Northern Ireland, | 0:43:28 | 0:43:31 | |
it shrank from nine counties to six. | 0:43:31 | 0:43:34 | |
Is it now to shrink to one county? | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
Be careful what you wish for. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:39 | |
David Cameron said the referendum would settle | 0:43:40 | 0:43:43 | |
the debate over the European Union once and for all. | 0:43:43 | 0:43:47 | |
In fact, the outcome has been the opposite. | 0:43:47 | 0:43:50 | |
It's also prompted a whole series | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
of new questions about the economy, identity | 0:43:53 | 0:43:57 | |
and the future of another union, | 0:43:57 | 0:43:59 | |
the United Kingdom itself. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:01 | |
Conor Spackman reporting. | 0:44:04 | 0:44:05 | |
The Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, was an outspoken | 0:44:05 | 0:44:08 | |
Leave campaigner. She may be in line for a promotion | 0:44:08 | 0:44:10 | |
when the Tories sort themselves out at the end of the summer. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:13 | |
I asked her if, amid all the uncertainty, she had a clear vision | 0:44:13 | 0:44:17 | |
of a post-Brexit Northern Ireland economy. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:19 | |
I think there are great opportunities | 0:44:20 | 0:44:22 | |
for Northern Ireland after this Brexit vote. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
Not only will we have a good trade deal | 0:44:25 | 0:44:28 | |
with the European Union, but we will be able to | 0:44:28 | 0:44:31 | |
negotiate trade deals with many countries around the world, | 0:44:31 | 0:44:34 | |
opening up real opportunities for Northern Ireland exports. | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
You don't know, of course, what deal you will have | 0:44:37 | 0:44:39 | |
with the European Union. | 0:44:39 | 0:44:40 | |
Well, the fact is that the European Union sell more to us | 0:44:40 | 0:44:43 | |
than we do to them, so it is in their interests | 0:44:43 | 0:44:45 | |
as well as ours to have a good deal, | 0:44:45 | 0:44:48 | |
and they have what is effectively a free-trade zone | 0:44:48 | 0:44:51 | |
between Iceland and the Russian border. | 0:44:51 | 0:44:53 | |
We are going to be part of that, we are going to get a good deal. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
Northern Ireland will continue to be a fantastic place to invest in, | 0:44:56 | 0:44:59 | |
including for those that want to export to the rest of Europe. | 0:44:59 | 0:45:02 | |
Again, you don't know that, and some people in Europe are saying | 0:45:02 | 0:45:05 | |
they want to make an example of the UK | 0:45:05 | 0:45:07 | |
so that others won't be tempted to follow suit. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:09 | |
So they may not have the already-in-place tariffs, | 0:45:09 | 0:45:12 | |
there may be higher tariffs, | 0:45:12 | 0:45:13 | |
you just don't know. That's the point, isn't it? | 0:45:13 | 0:45:16 | |
Trade negotiations are a hard-headed thing to carry out, | 0:45:16 | 0:45:20 | |
and, for example, we have a significant deficit in cars. | 0:45:20 | 0:45:25 | |
The rest of the EU sell far more cars to us | 0:45:25 | 0:45:27 | |
than we do to them. It is not in the interests of | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
German car manufacturers to have tariffs going up. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
They don't set the tariffs, Europe sets the tariffs. | 0:45:33 | 0:45:36 | |
Yes, but the German government certainly listens | 0:45:36 | 0:45:39 | |
to their car manufacturers, because they know their economy | 0:45:39 | 0:45:41 | |
is dependent on exports. | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
We are the EU's biggest export market, | 0:45:43 | 0:45:46 | |
we are the fifth biggest economy in the world. | 0:45:46 | 0:45:49 | |
It is in both our interests, | 0:45:49 | 0:45:51 | |
both the remaining members of the EU and the UK, | 0:45:51 | 0:45:54 | |
to have a good trade deal, to continue to trade | 0:45:54 | 0:45:56 | |
and cooperate on matters of mutual interest. | 0:45:56 | 0:45:59 | |
So much of Northern Ireland's business goes to the Republic, | 0:45:59 | 0:46:02 | |
and a significant proportion of | 0:46:02 | 0:46:03 | |
the Republic's business comes from Northern Ireland. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:06 | |
That will be damaged by the hard border, | 0:46:06 | 0:46:08 | |
which everyone now says will emerge in some form from this Brexit. | 0:46:08 | 0:46:13 | |
But they're not saying that. | 0:46:13 | 0:46:15 | |
Both the UK Government and the Irish government want to have | 0:46:15 | 0:46:18 | |
an open border. We are already working on that. | 0:46:18 | 0:46:20 | |
They want to have but it's decided by Europe! | 0:46:20 | 0:46:24 | |
Ireland is part of the EU. It will have to | 0:46:24 | 0:46:26 | |
abide by what the EU dictates. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:28 | |
The Common Travel Area has been a part of this island for | 0:46:28 | 0:46:32 | |
nearly 100 years. It survived a civil war, a World War | 0:46:32 | 0:46:37 | |
and 30 years of The Troubles. It can survive a Brexit vote. | 0:46:37 | 0:46:40 | |
It's in the interests of both the UK and Ireland to keep | 0:46:40 | 0:46:43 | |
-that border open. -It was dependent on there being | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
common laws and regulations between Ireland and Great Britain. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:50 | |
That is no longer the case. The EU rules supreme. | 0:46:50 | 0:46:55 | |
The Common Travel Area, there are risks already associated with having | 0:46:55 | 0:47:02 | |
the Common Travel Area and an open land border | 0:47:02 | 0:47:04 | |
and we manage them perfectly well today. | 0:47:04 | 0:47:06 | |
We can continue to do that after we leave the European Union. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
It's perfectly possible to do that, | 0:47:09 | 0:47:12 | |
with common sense on both sides, and again, it's in the interests | 0:47:12 | 0:47:15 | |
of the Republic of Ireland to maintain that open border. | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
So, I don't see that the EU is going to | 0:47:18 | 0:47:20 | |
put barriers in the way of one of their own member states | 0:47:20 | 0:47:22 | |
from continuing to trade with the UK. | 0:47:22 | 0:47:24 | |
For the same reason as it may limit | 0:47:24 | 0:47:26 | |
trade deals, because it wants to set some kind of an example. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
Ireland has already said, many of its politicians are saying, | 0:47:29 | 0:47:32 | |
when it comes to it, Great Britain are great friends, of course this is | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
a common land border, but we must put what the EU wants first. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
We must show that we are good Europeans before | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
we delve into or try to develop this friendship, or continue this | 0:47:42 | 0:47:45 | |
friendship with Great Britain. | 0:47:45 | 0:47:48 | |
In the conversations I've had directly with Minister Flanagan, | 0:47:48 | 0:47:51 | |
there is a strong will to maintain an open border | 0:47:51 | 0:47:55 | |
and that is the clear position that I have been told | 0:47:55 | 0:47:58 | |
in relation to the approach. It's in all our interests. | 0:47:58 | 0:48:02 | |
There must be immigration and customs controls. That's a basic. | 0:48:02 | 0:48:05 | |
The whole argument about immigration | 0:48:05 | 0:48:08 | |
on the Leave campaign's side dictates | 0:48:08 | 0:48:11 | |
that there be some kind of immigration control at the border. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
You don't have to use physical border checks | 0:48:14 | 0:48:18 | |
to deal with immigration issues. | 0:48:18 | 0:48:20 | |
Clearly, Irish citizens will continue to enjoy | 0:48:20 | 0:48:23 | |
all the rights that they currently have today. | 0:48:23 | 0:48:25 | |
They are entirely independent of free movement. | 0:48:25 | 0:48:27 | |
I think it's far-fetched to think | 0:48:27 | 0:48:29 | |
that somehow there will be thousands of | 0:48:29 | 0:48:32 | |
non-Irish EU citizens suddenly flooding across the border | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
if we were to change free movement rules, | 0:48:35 | 0:48:37 | |
and if that does happen and we have changed free movement rules, | 0:48:37 | 0:48:41 | |
and they come without the appropriate permissions, | 0:48:41 | 0:48:43 | |
they won't be allowed to work, they won't be able to open | 0:48:43 | 0:48:46 | |
a bank account, they won't be able to rent property | 0:48:46 | 0:48:48 | |
and ultimately, in serious cases, they could be deported. | 0:48:48 | 0:48:51 | |
So, you can control illegal migration through means | 0:48:51 | 0:48:54 | |
which don't require physical checks at a border. | 0:48:54 | 0:48:57 | |
The peace process, there are fears that a Brexit damages | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
the peace process. Europe was so much part of | 0:49:00 | 0:49:02 | |
the Good Friday Agreement, not least in terms of equality laws | 0:49:02 | 0:49:06 | |
and the Human Rights Convention. | 0:49:06 | 0:49:09 | |
To what extent has that been damaged by this vote? | 0:49:09 | 0:49:12 | |
I don't believe it has at all. I think support for | 0:49:12 | 0:49:14 | |
the political settlement and the principle of | 0:49:14 | 0:49:16 | |
democracy and consent is rock-solid in Northern Ireland. | 0:49:16 | 0:49:19 | |
The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
believe that their future should only be | 0:49:23 | 0:49:25 | |
determined by democracy and consent | 0:49:25 | 0:49:27 | |
and there is no suggestion that that resolute determination | 0:49:27 | 0:49:31 | |
is going to be changed in any way by a Brexit vote. | 0:49:31 | 0:49:33 | |
A lot of people feel though that the very basis | 0:49:33 | 0:49:37 | |
of the agreement has now been changed. | 0:49:37 | 0:49:39 | |
There... It is entirely... | 0:49:39 | 0:49:41 | |
A Brexit vote is entirely consistent with the Belfast agreement, | 0:49:41 | 0:49:45 | |
there is nothing to say that the UK can't vote to leave | 0:49:45 | 0:49:48 | |
the European Union. The reality is, | 0:49:48 | 0:49:50 | |
the peace settlement, the political settlement enjoys huge support. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:54 | |
Politics are very stable in Northern Ireland | 0:49:54 | 0:49:57 | |
in comparison to many places. | 0:49:57 | 0:49:59 | |
Do you think there are many Nationalists who were becoming perhaps more content | 0:49:59 | 0:50:02 | |
in Northern Ireland under the Good Friday Agreement | 0:50:02 | 0:50:05 | |
will now be thinking, you know what, we need to get a united Ireland. | 0:50:05 | 0:50:08 | |
I don't see there is any evidence for that... | 0:50:08 | 0:50:11 | |
Apart from the hundreds of people applying for Irish passports in the last few days. | 0:50:11 | 0:50:15 | |
The key concerns people have is they want to make sure that | 0:50:15 | 0:50:17 | |
we retain our open border and retain all our co-operation and | 0:50:17 | 0:50:22 | |
our trade with the Republic of Ireland. Absolutely, that's | 0:50:22 | 0:50:24 | |
exactly what we want to do. And that's what we're going to do. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:27 | |
There's every sign that Scotland's going to go for a second referendum. | 0:50:27 | 0:50:30 | |
If this Brexit leads to the break-up of the United Kingdom, | 0:50:30 | 0:50:33 | |
is it a price worth paying? | 0:50:33 | 0:50:35 | |
I don't believe the United Kingdom is going to break up. | 0:50:35 | 0:50:38 | |
The Scottish people voted by a clear margin to stay | 0:50:38 | 0:50:42 | |
-in the United Kingdom. -Unanimously, actually. | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
They voted by 10% to stay in the United Kingdom. | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
Every area voted to stay in. | 0:50:49 | 0:50:52 | |
I'm talking about the Scottish separation referendum. | 0:50:52 | 0:50:58 | |
That referendum should be respected in Scotland. | 0:50:58 | 0:51:02 | |
They voted in favour of staying within the United Kingdom | 0:51:02 | 0:51:05 | |
and both sides agreed to respect that referendum | 0:51:05 | 0:51:09 | |
and when it took place the Scots knew perfectly well there was a forthcoming referendum | 0:51:09 | 0:51:14 | |
in which the United Kingdom would vote as a country on its membership of the EU. | 0:51:14 | 0:51:18 | |
They have the right to stage another referendum and | 0:51:18 | 0:51:20 | |
Nicola Sturgeon says she's going to enact the legislation. | 0:51:20 | 0:51:24 | |
But the question around Scottish separation has been settled by | 0:51:24 | 0:51:28 | |
a clear referendum. Both sides in the Edinburgh agreement | 0:51:28 | 0:51:31 | |
agree to respect that there is no reason to reopen the question. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
The case for Scotland remaining in the UK is just as strong | 0:51:35 | 0:51:37 | |
as it was in 2014 when the vote took place. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:41 | |
-Secretary, thank you very much indeed. -Thank you. | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
Theresa Villiers. The Irish government was recalled | 0:51:45 | 0:51:48 | |
this week to analyse the Brexit fallout. | 0:51:48 | 0:51:50 | |
The Irish European affairs Minister, Dara Murphy, has been sounding out | 0:51:50 | 0:51:53 | |
other member states in Brussels today. | 0:51:53 | 0:51:55 | |
I asked him if he'd found anyone ready to make allowances for what | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
the Taoiseach called the unique relationships on these islands? | 0:51:58 | 0:52:03 | |
I think there has been an awareness right throughout | 0:52:03 | 0:52:06 | |
the campaign. I suppose that while the Republic of Ireland | 0:52:06 | 0:52:10 | |
and Northern Ireland will of course have issues | 0:52:10 | 0:52:13 | |
to be dealt with in the political and in the economic, | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
we have other areas of... where we share issues. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:22 | |
Clearly the fact that we have had | 0:52:22 | 0:52:23 | |
a Common Travel Area since the 1920s, the UK and | 0:52:23 | 0:52:27 | |
the Republic joined in 1973, the European Union together, | 0:52:27 | 0:52:30 | |
so we have never been in a position | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
where one part, the Republic of Ireland is | 0:52:33 | 0:52:36 | |
out and the UK...is in, or in this case vice versa. | 0:52:36 | 0:52:40 | |
So, between that and the Common Travel Area | 0:52:40 | 0:52:43 | |
and I suppose the very deep links that there are between both Irelands | 0:52:43 | 0:52:49 | |
really I suppose, that is well understood, | 0:52:49 | 0:52:52 | |
and while we will be looking, of course, to negotiate | 0:52:52 | 0:52:55 | |
from the Irish Republic's point of view | 0:52:55 | 0:52:58 | |
as one of 27, we will be making the case | 0:52:58 | 0:53:01 | |
that for many reasons the issues that are specific | 0:53:01 | 0:53:04 | |
to the Republic of Ireland and indeed Northern Ireland | 0:53:04 | 0:53:07 | |
and the rest of Great Britain are unique and will need | 0:53:07 | 0:53:10 | |
to be treated in that fashion as unique. | 0:53:10 | 0:53:13 | |
You have a delicate balancing act to do | 0:53:13 | 0:53:15 | |
because you have to show yourselves to be good Europeans | 0:53:15 | 0:53:19 | |
and also you have to protect the interests of | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
your vital trade, the biggest trading partner, | 0:53:22 | 0:53:25 | |
the United Kingdom. | 0:53:25 | 0:53:26 | |
Yes, and I don't see that as a delicate balance. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:32 | |
I think it's a fairly obvious ambition and I think it's a fair and reasonable ambition. | 0:53:32 | 0:53:37 | |
We are good Europeans. We are of the view | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
most of the political parties in the South would be of the view | 0:53:41 | 0:53:45 | |
that the Republic's future does rest within the European Union. | 0:53:45 | 0:53:50 | |
Many parties, of course, feel that the European Union needs | 0:53:50 | 0:53:53 | |
to be improved, and I would agree with that part myself, | 0:53:53 | 0:53:56 | |
but better to improve it from the inside rather than from the outside. | 0:53:56 | 0:54:00 | |
But we don't see actually a contradiction or a conflict between | 0:54:00 | 0:54:05 | |
ensuring that trade and travel between these islands | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
remains as free and easy as possible for everybody | 0:54:08 | 0:54:13 | |
and our ambition to stay as a very strong member | 0:54:13 | 0:54:16 | |
of the European Union, in fact, the contrary is the case. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:20 | |
Will you argue against trade tariffs? | 0:54:20 | 0:54:22 | |
The answer to that is yes, we will be arguing to keep anything | 0:54:22 | 0:54:27 | |
that reduces trade between the UK and Ireland | 0:54:27 | 0:54:30 | |
and the European Union and the UK rather to an absolute minimum. | 0:54:30 | 0:54:35 | |
That is not in the interests, we believe, of anybody in Europe, | 0:54:35 | 0:54:39 | |
whether inside the EU or out. | 0:54:39 | 0:54:41 | |
If you are outside it, you pay tariffs, and the UK will | 0:54:41 | 0:54:46 | |
-be outside it? -Yes, and I said that we need to | 0:54:46 | 0:54:50 | |
keep them to a minimum. It is far, far too early | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
now to get into the detail of what will be | 0:54:53 | 0:54:56 | |
the second part of this process, that is what | 0:54:56 | 0:54:58 | |
will be the new relationship between the UK and the EU. | 0:54:58 | 0:55:03 | |
First of all, of course, the process of how and when | 0:55:03 | 0:55:08 | |
the UK will leave, and I think it is welcome | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
that the Government in the UK has been given time now. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
The sense of the meeting tonight is that it would be clearly necessary | 0:55:15 | 0:55:21 | |
that there will have to be a new Prime Minister, | 0:55:21 | 0:55:23 | |
a new government in place in London, | 0:55:23 | 0:55:26 | |
that can negotiate with the other 27 member states. | 0:55:26 | 0:55:30 | |
And what comes from those negotiations | 0:55:30 | 0:55:32 | |
will take time to see the detail of them. | 0:55:32 | 0:55:35 | |
Gerry Adams says the Irish government must deal | 0:55:35 | 0:55:37 | |
with this on an all-Ireland basis. | 0:55:37 | 0:55:39 | |
Will you feel any pressure, any requirement to speak out | 0:55:39 | 0:55:44 | |
for those nationalists in Northern Ireland | 0:55:44 | 0:55:46 | |
who voted to remain in the EU and who now feel | 0:55:46 | 0:55:48 | |
-that their voice has been silenced? -It is clear | 0:55:48 | 0:55:51 | |
that there will be many voices supporting the issues | 0:55:51 | 0:55:54 | |
that will affect the people of Northern Ireland, | 0:55:54 | 0:55:57 | |
the Republic of Ireland and the UK. | 0:55:57 | 0:55:59 | |
I don't actually see that those voices will need | 0:55:59 | 0:56:02 | |
to be voices that will contradict each other | 0:56:02 | 0:56:05 | |
and certainly in any bilateral discussions we have had, | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
and in fact the Taoiseach has very much welcomed | 0:56:08 | 0:56:12 | |
David Cameron's statement that | 0:56:12 | 0:56:14 | |
Northern Ireland would have to have a special place | 0:56:14 | 0:56:17 | |
within these negotiations. So, I don't see it | 0:56:17 | 0:56:20 | |
that the Republic will be arguing for Northern Ireland | 0:56:20 | 0:56:23 | |
and someone else will be arguing against it. | 0:56:23 | 0:56:25 | |
In fact, I think there is a very good awareness of the journey we've | 0:56:25 | 0:56:30 | |
travelled in these islands and the unique position that we have. | 0:56:30 | 0:56:32 | |
Dara Murphy. | 0:56:32 | 0:56:34 | |
We were talking earlier about Scotland where the SNP say | 0:56:34 | 0:56:36 | |
they're gearing up for a second referendum on independence. | 0:56:36 | 0:56:39 | |
Of course, the last one was defeated by a significant margin | 0:56:39 | 0:56:43 | |
but could the Brexit shift opinion? | 0:56:43 | 0:56:45 | |
Darran Marshall's been finding out. | 0:56:45 | 0:56:47 | |
For Scotland, the campaign continues | 0:56:53 | 0:56:56 | |
and the dream shall never die. | 0:56:56 | 0:56:58 | |
Alex Salmond's resignation speech. Scotland had | 0:57:00 | 0:57:03 | |
rejected his lifetime ambition of independence. | 0:57:03 | 0:57:06 | |
Should Scotland be an independent country? | 0:57:07 | 0:57:10 | |
No. | 0:57:11 | 0:57:13 | |
CHEERING | 0:57:13 | 0:57:15 | |
It appeared dreams of independence had been checked - | 0:57:15 | 0:57:18 | |
the union secured. | 0:57:18 | 0:57:19 | |
And even the politician, dubbed by the Daily Mail | 0:57:23 | 0:57:26 | |
"the most dangerous woman in Britain", Nicola Sturgeon, | 0:57:26 | 0:57:29 | |
seemed unwilling to commit to a new referendum. | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
Overnight, everything changed. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:36 | |
Let June 23rd go down in our history as our independence day. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:42 | |
Lisburn man, David Clegg, is the political editor | 0:57:44 | 0:57:47 | |
of Scotland's Daily Record, | 0:57:47 | 0:57:49 | |
traditionally viewed as a Unionist paper. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:52 | |
He believes Britain's decision to exit Europe | 0:57:52 | 0:57:55 | |
could lead to Scotland quitting the UK. | 0:57:55 | 0:57:57 | |
We are only two years away from the independence referendum, | 0:57:58 | 0:58:01 | |
which returned a decisive "no" result, | 0:58:01 | 0:58:03 | |
but a lot of that was predicated on Scotland being | 0:58:03 | 0:58:07 | |
a member of the European Union through its membership of the UK, | 0:58:07 | 0:58:10 | |
so I think a lot of people are reconsidering their position. | 0:58:10 | 0:58:13 | |
Do you think the UK will now break up? | 0:58:15 | 0:58:17 | |
Um, with a bit of luck. | 0:58:17 | 0:58:19 | |
-Yes. -I hope so. -I hope so, | 0:58:19 | 0:58:22 | |
Scotland needs independence. | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
On the afternoon we filmed on this Glasgow high street, | 0:58:25 | 0:58:28 | |
most believe Scottish independence inevitable and the Union doomed. | 0:58:28 | 0:58:32 | |
Well, hopefully Scotland will go its own way. | 0:58:32 | 0:58:35 | |
-Do you think the UK will break up? -No, not at all. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:38 | |
We'll all stay together. Why not? We love Scotland, we love Britain. | 0:58:38 | 0:58:42 | |
Independence is going to come now, yeah. | 0:58:42 | 0:58:45 | |
I think the UK will break up now. | 0:58:45 | 0:58:47 | |
Humza Yousaf, campaign director for the SNP in the referendum, | 0:58:47 | 0:58:51 | |
credits the successful Remain campaign north of the border | 0:58:51 | 0:58:55 | |
with its positive view of Europe, | 0:58:55 | 0:58:57 | |
something he feels the campaign elsewhere failed to advocate. | 0:58:57 | 0:59:01 | |
I think the immigration debate | 0:59:01 | 0:59:03 | |
and the toxicity of that debate took grip in many areas of the country. | 0:59:03 | 0:59:08 | |
I think if for 30 years successive UK governments have told you | 0:59:08 | 0:59:12 | |
that it is the immigrants' fault then, eventually, | 0:59:12 | 0:59:15 | |
the chickens frankly come home to roost. | 0:59:15 | 0:59:18 | |
Last Friday, in front of the saltire and the European flag, | 0:59:18 | 0:59:21 | |
Nicola Sturgeon revealed a second independence referendum | 0:59:21 | 0:59:25 | |
was an option she was considering. | 0:59:25 | 0:59:27 | |
Scotland faces the prospect of being taken | 0:59:27 | 0:59:31 | |
out of the EU against our will. | 0:59:31 | 0:59:34 | |
I regard that as democratically unacceptable. | 0:59:34 | 0:59:38 | |
And it is, therefore, a statement of the obvious that the option | 0:59:38 | 0:59:42 | |
of a second referendum must be on the table. | 0:59:42 | 0:59:45 | |
If you asked me a month ago, would there be another | 0:59:47 | 0:59:50 | |
independence referendum in the next few years? I would have said no. | 0:59:50 | 0:59:53 | |
This has certainly changed the game entirely. | 0:59:53 | 0:59:57 | |
This time, Scottish nationalists feel that the decision | 0:59:57 | 1:00:00 | |
on a second referendum has been forced | 1:00:00 | 1:00:02 | |
by those who voted to leave Europe. | 1:00:02 | 1:00:05 | |
Anybody with even a little bit of foresight would have been able | 1:00:06 | 1:00:10 | |
to see that this scenario that has played itself out, | 1:00:10 | 1:00:12 | |
of Scotland wanting to stay within the European Union | 1:00:12 | 1:00:15 | |
and the rest of the UK or parts of it wanting to leave, | 1:00:15 | 1:00:18 | |
could easily have played out. | 1:00:18 | 1:00:20 | |
Those pro-union Brexiters knew fine well that this could be | 1:00:20 | 1:00:23 | |
a situation that arose. | 1:00:23 | 1:00:25 | |
The Tory leader in Scotland campaigned for a Remain vote. | 1:00:27 | 1:00:31 | |
Despite the overall result of the referendum, | 1:00:31 | 1:00:33 | |
she doesn't believe the end of the United Kingdom is inevitable. | 1:00:33 | 1:00:37 | |
We do not address the challenges of leaving the European Union | 1:00:37 | 1:00:40 | |
by leaving our own union of nations, | 1:00:40 | 1:00:43 | |
our biggest market and our closest friends. | 1:00:43 | 1:00:45 | |
David Clegg believes the United Kingdom has been sacrificed | 1:00:45 | 1:00:49 | |
by English voters. | 1:00:49 | 1:00:50 | |
England seems to be turning inwards towards itself. | 1:00:52 | 1:00:55 | |
I think that was an expression of English nationalism | 1:00:55 | 1:00:58 | |
that was part of the reasons for the Leave result. | 1:00:58 | 1:01:00 | |
The voters in England had been warned not only that a Leave vote | 1:01:02 | 1:01:05 | |
would likely lead to renewed calls for Scottish independence | 1:01:05 | 1:01:09 | |
but also lead to a renewed push for a united Ireland from Sinn Fein. | 1:01:09 | 1:01:14 | |
They have ignored both of those elements whenever they've been | 1:01:14 | 1:01:17 | |
making their decision and have voted Leave regardless. | 1:01:17 | 1:01:20 | |
The referendum was a UK-wide poll with one overall decision | 1:01:20 | 1:01:24 | |
taken by the electorate, but Humza Yousaf believes many Scots value | 1:01:24 | 1:01:27 | |
the union with Europe over that with England. | 1:01:27 | 1:01:30 | |
The UK that people in Scotland voted to remain a part of | 1:01:31 | 1:01:35 | |
in September 2014, 55% of our population who chose to remain | 1:01:35 | 1:01:39 | |
in that UK - that UK doesn't exist anymore. | 1:01:39 | 1:01:42 | |
That UK has ceased to exist. | 1:01:42 | 1:01:44 | |
We were promised in the run-up to that Scottish Independence | 1:01:45 | 1:01:48 | |
referendum that the only way to protect Scotland's place | 1:01:48 | 1:01:52 | |
in the European Union was to vote to remain in the United Kingdom. | 1:01:52 | 1:01:55 | |
That has proven to be the biggest lie that has been told | 1:01:55 | 1:01:58 | |
in modern British political history. | 1:01:58 | 1:02:00 | |
Hundreds, if not thousands of people, now messaging me personally | 1:02:02 | 1:02:05 | |
in the last week alone, since the result, | 1:02:05 | 1:02:07 | |
to say that they want to change their vote. | 1:02:07 | 1:02:09 | |
They were staunch unionists, staunch No supporters, | 1:02:09 | 1:02:12 | |
and never would they have thought they would have switched their vote. | 1:02:12 | 1:02:16 | |
But now, because of what's happened, they would rather be independent | 1:02:16 | 1:02:19 | |
in Europe than be part of the United Kingdom outside of Europe. | 1:02:19 | 1:02:23 | |
The DUP's Christopher Stalford campaigned for a Leave vote | 1:02:24 | 1:02:28 | |
in the referendum. | 1:02:28 | 1:02:29 | |
He isn't convinced that the Scottish Government will call | 1:02:29 | 1:02:32 | |
a fresh independence poll. | 1:02:32 | 1:02:33 | |
I believe to a large extent the SNP are bluffing, | 1:02:35 | 1:02:38 | |
in terms of the sabre rattling that we have seen | 1:02:38 | 1:02:41 | |
coming from Nicola Sturgeon and others, | 1:02:41 | 1:02:43 | |
and if you look at her language very carefully, | 1:02:43 | 1:02:46 | |
what she has been saying is a referendum is on the table | 1:02:46 | 1:02:49 | |
or highly likely. She hasn't come straight out and called for one, | 1:02:49 | 1:02:54 | |
and I suspect the reason for that is she knows that if she were to come straight out | 1:02:54 | 1:02:59 | |
and call for one, there would be a very negative reaction | 1:02:59 | 1:03:02 | |
amongst the Scottish electorate. | 1:03:02 | 1:03:04 | |
The view from and about Scotland. | 1:03:04 | 1:03:07 | |
The former First Minister David Trimble was a supporter | 1:03:07 | 1:03:11 | |
of the Leave campaign. I asked him for his assessment | 1:03:11 | 1:03:13 | |
of Northern Ireland's future outside the EU. | 1:03:13 | 1:03:16 | |
The New Yorker magazine characterises the vote for Brexit | 1:03:17 | 1:03:21 | |
as a John Cleese figure stepping off the edge of a cliff. | 1:03:21 | 1:03:26 | |
Is Northern Ireland stepping off the edge of a cliff into the unknown? | 1:03:26 | 1:03:30 | |
I think there will be some volatility in the market, | 1:03:30 | 1:03:33 | |
there already has been. | 1:03:33 | 1:03:35 | |
I am sure that will steady down quite soon. | 1:03:35 | 1:03:38 | |
6-12 months from now, people will see that this is a good thing. | 1:03:38 | 1:03:42 | |
A good thing in what way for Northern Ireland, | 1:03:42 | 1:03:45 | |
which might end up, according to some commentators, | 1:03:45 | 1:03:48 | |
cut off from the Republic, its main trade partner, | 1:03:48 | 1:03:51 | |
and also perhaps in a couple of years' time, cut off from Scotland, | 1:03:51 | 1:03:55 | |
if it becomes independent. | 1:03:55 | 1:03:56 | |
There's a lot of exaggeration about this | 1:03:56 | 1:03:59 | |
and particularly about the single market. | 1:03:59 | 1:04:01 | |
It's best to be quite clear about this. | 1:04:01 | 1:04:04 | |
There will be, as a result of our leaving the European Union, | 1:04:04 | 1:04:08 | |
the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic will be | 1:04:08 | 1:04:11 | |
the European Union's border, | 1:04:11 | 1:04:13 | |
but that doesn't mean the South is cut off. | 1:04:13 | 1:04:15 | |
It does mean there will be tariffs on the border. | 1:04:15 | 1:04:20 | |
People keep talking about being cut off from the single market. | 1:04:20 | 1:04:23 | |
There's 150 countries in the world that are not part | 1:04:23 | 1:04:27 | |
of the European Union, | 1:04:27 | 1:04:28 | |
and none of them are cut off from the single market. | 1:04:28 | 1:04:32 | |
The consequence of not being part of the European Union | 1:04:32 | 1:04:35 | |
is that they have to pay the tariffs, but the tariffs are low. | 1:04:35 | 1:04:38 | |
Is Europe going to increase the tariffs? Not if they have any sense. | 1:04:38 | 1:04:42 | |
I know there are some people in the European Commission... | 1:04:42 | 1:04:45 | |
There is talk of punishing. | 1:04:45 | 1:04:47 | |
That is precisely what I was going to say. | 1:04:47 | 1:04:50 | |
Some people in the European Union, displaying their usual | 1:04:50 | 1:04:53 | |
level of judgment, by saying they are going to punish, | 1:04:53 | 1:04:56 | |
but you will notice what Angela Merkel says, | 1:04:56 | 1:04:59 | |
that it's time for them to behave in a grown-up way. | 1:04:59 | 1:05:02 | |
I think you'll find that our friends in Dublin will also be acting | 1:05:02 | 1:05:07 | |
in a grown-up way and be saying to Europe that what you should be doing | 1:05:07 | 1:05:12 | |
in this case is not increase your tariffs | 1:05:12 | 1:05:14 | |
but reduce your tariffs to increase trade. | 1:05:14 | 1:05:16 | |
But there's no indication that Ireland will be able to plead | 1:05:16 | 1:05:21 | |
a special relationship because of the land border. | 1:05:21 | 1:05:24 | |
I am not suggesting that they should. | 1:05:24 | 1:05:27 | |
In the long run, and by that I mean in the next couple of years, | 1:05:27 | 1:05:30 | |
Ireland will have a decision to take about its future relationships | 1:05:30 | 1:05:35 | |
and whether Europe is more important to it than the British market. | 1:05:35 | 1:05:41 | |
They followed us into the European Common Market, as it was. | 1:05:41 | 1:05:48 | |
Followed us, went in on the same day, because they knew they had | 1:05:48 | 1:05:51 | |
to go in with us so as not to find themselves disadvantaged. | 1:05:51 | 1:05:56 | |
But there is not even an argument in the Republic | 1:05:56 | 1:06:00 | |
about whether or not they should remain... | 1:06:00 | 1:06:02 | |
Wait and see. | 1:06:02 | 1:06:05 | |
Discussions are already, I think, taking place in government corridors | 1:06:05 | 1:06:10 | |
and we'll see what happens. | 1:06:10 | 1:06:12 | |
I am quite sure that our friends in Dublin will be thinking carefully | 1:06:12 | 1:06:17 | |
and there's also a wider question about the future | 1:06:17 | 1:06:20 | |
of the European Union, but that is another matter. | 1:06:20 | 1:06:22 | |
What about the concept of a hard border now between North and South? | 1:06:22 | 1:06:28 | |
It's pretty much an inevitability according to some commentators. | 1:06:28 | 1:06:32 | |
There will be identity checks, there will be customs checks, | 1:06:32 | 1:06:36 | |
which some people say, and Jonathan Powell, | 1:06:36 | 1:06:39 | |
the right-hand man of Tony Blair, says there will be a hard border | 1:06:39 | 1:06:44 | |
which will create difficulties in the relationship between North and South. | 1:06:44 | 1:06:48 | |
Jonathan should calm down | 1:06:48 | 1:06:49 | |
and have a look at the history of the matter from 1920 to 1972. | 1:06:49 | 1:06:55 | |
You might say there was a hard border - it wasn't very hard. | 1:06:55 | 1:07:00 | |
There is no desire that I know of, in either London or Dublin, | 1:07:00 | 1:07:03 | |
to change the common travel area. | 1:07:03 | 1:07:06 | |
The question is - what does Brussels do? | 1:07:06 | 1:07:09 | |
Here again, I think our friends in Dublin have to be reminding | 1:07:09 | 1:07:13 | |
the people in Brussels of the existence of a common travel area. | 1:07:13 | 1:07:18 | |
What about immigration? | 1:07:18 | 1:07:21 | |
Part of the Brexit argument was to control | 1:07:21 | 1:07:25 | |
the borders of the United Kingdom. | 1:07:25 | 1:07:28 | |
Will there be, at this hard border between North and South, | 1:07:28 | 1:07:32 | |
stricter immigration controls? | 1:07:32 | 1:07:35 | |
That's where you have some practical problems, | 1:07:35 | 1:07:39 | |
just as we have huge practical problems with the other borders | 1:07:39 | 1:07:43 | |
of the United Kingdom. | 1:07:43 | 1:07:45 | |
We only have effective controls at the major points of entry, | 1:07:45 | 1:07:50 | |
but you've got to cast your mind back to what things were like before 1972, | 1:07:50 | 1:07:55 | |
and I think some people just are exaggerating this, | 1:07:55 | 1:07:58 | |
and exaggerating this for a purpose. | 1:07:58 | 1:08:01 | |
They no longer have that purpose, | 1:08:01 | 1:08:03 | |
so you might find that commentary begins to calm down. | 1:08:03 | 1:08:06 | |
Scotland, the indications are that the Scottish Parliament | 1:08:07 | 1:08:11 | |
is going to enact legislation to have a second referendum on independence. | 1:08:11 | 1:08:16 | |
If Scotland becomes independent, | 1:08:16 | 1:08:18 | |
have we then effectively, in Northern Ireland, | 1:08:18 | 1:08:21 | |
become cut off from the Republic and from Scotland? | 1:08:21 | 1:08:24 | |
There's a lot of noise going on at the moment | 1:08:24 | 1:08:28 | |
and quite a lot of posturing. | 1:08:28 | 1:08:30 | |
The fact of the matter is that the Scottish people do not want another referendum - | 1:08:30 | 1:08:37 | |
we know that from opinion polls taken place after the last referendum. | 1:08:37 | 1:08:41 | |
That referendum was very scarring. | 1:08:41 | 1:08:45 | |
It was a hugely unpleasant experience | 1:08:45 | 1:08:47 | |
and there is no stomach for doing it again. | 1:08:47 | 1:08:50 | |
Whatever the leadership of the SNP may say, | 1:08:50 | 1:08:53 | |
they know that the economic proposals they put to the Scottish people in that referendum | 1:08:53 | 1:08:59 | |
have been blown out of the water completely by the changes | 1:08:59 | 1:09:02 | |
that have taken place, so what we are getting at the moment, | 1:09:02 | 1:09:06 | |
and this is my judgment on the matter, is that the leadership | 1:09:06 | 1:09:09 | |
of the SNP are talking this up | 1:09:09 | 1:09:11 | |
because they had talked it up beforehand, but they are actually | 1:09:11 | 1:09:14 | |
trying to construct processes that will give them excuses for inaction. | 1:09:14 | 1:09:18 | |
Lord Trimble. Let's talk to the current batch of decision takers | 1:09:20 | 1:09:23 | |
at Stormont and indeed at Westminster. | 1:09:23 | 1:09:25 | |
Ian Paisley is there for us. Ian Paisley, the Brexiteers are already | 1:09:25 | 1:09:29 | |
being accused of resiling from previous positions, | 1:09:29 | 1:09:33 | |
of doing U-turns, not going to give money we get back from Europe | 1:09:33 | 1:09:38 | |
to the NHS any more. Why should we believe that anyone | 1:09:38 | 1:09:41 | |
in Northern Ireland will benefit in terms of the money | 1:09:41 | 1:09:44 | |
that would have gone to the farmers, for example? | 1:09:44 | 1:09:46 | |
How can we be sure that any benefits will accrue to the people | 1:09:46 | 1:09:49 | |
of Northern Ireland as a result of this vote? | 1:09:49 | 1:09:52 | |
Good evening and thank you for having me on your programme. | 1:09:52 | 1:09:54 | |
I think there's a couple of key points that have to be made | 1:09:54 | 1:09:58 | |
in order to address that, and address that fairly. | 1:09:58 | 1:10:01 | |
In Northern Ireland we should be used to this. | 1:10:01 | 1:10:03 | |
We are now entering into a very important | 1:10:03 | 1:10:06 | |
and intensive phase of negotiations immediately after the most important | 1:10:06 | 1:10:10 | |
and revolutionary referendum that we've had in the United Kingdom. | 1:10:10 | 1:10:17 | |
And I think the revolution we're now into will open this negotiation | 1:10:17 | 1:10:22 | |
and allow us to claim back that money and to negotiate those deals. | 1:10:22 | 1:10:27 | |
But I would pose this question. | 1:10:27 | 1:10:29 | |
After 40 years, more than 40 years, of being a member of this | 1:10:29 | 1:10:33 | |
great panacea, this wonderful club, | 1:10:33 | 1:10:36 | |
of having all of the great experts of the world, | 1:10:36 | 1:10:40 | |
from presidents to bank chiefs, the elites, | 1:10:40 | 1:10:43 | |
telling the ordinary people of the United Kingdom | 1:10:43 | 1:10:46 | |
you'd better stick with this club, | 1:10:46 | 1:10:48 | |
the vast majority of the people in the United Kingdom, | 1:10:48 | 1:10:51 | |
of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, said, "We're leaving. | 1:10:51 | 1:10:54 | |
"We don't like this. It's not working." | 1:10:54 | 1:10:56 | |
I'm not sure you've answered the question as to whether or not | 1:10:56 | 1:10:59 | |
any money is going to come here. | 1:10:59 | 1:11:00 | |
The point is that... People are missing the key point here. | 1:11:00 | 1:11:03 | |
This is a revolution. The public have rejected Europe | 1:11:03 | 1:11:09 | |
and that means that everything is on the table and we can start to now | 1:11:09 | 1:11:12 | |
open up the option for negotiating how our money is better spent. | 1:11:12 | 1:11:17 | |
That means we have a blank page and that's a positive thing. | 1:11:17 | 1:11:21 | |
-Claire Hanna, are you reassured? -No, I'm not. | 1:11:21 | 1:11:23 | |
We have been asking for months what the plan is post-Brexit. | 1:11:23 | 1:11:27 | |
There are clearly wasn't one and clearly we can't trust | 1:11:27 | 1:11:29 | |
the same people who have spoofed | 1:11:29 | 1:11:31 | |
on things like money for the NHS and on immigration, | 1:11:31 | 1:11:34 | |
and have been proven wrong already on all those things. | 1:11:34 | 1:11:37 | |
But what is clear is that Northern Ireland voted to stay | 1:11:37 | 1:11:40 | |
and we will be seeking to represent that, and we'll be using | 1:11:40 | 1:11:43 | |
whatever democratic method we can do to do that. | 1:11:43 | 1:11:46 | |
-We're not go to simply... -The point is there aren't any. | 1:11:46 | 1:11:49 | |
There are, actually. There's a very long road to travel | 1:11:49 | 1:11:51 | |
before any Brexit is triggered. | 1:11:51 | 1:11:55 | |
There's no plan in London and we're not just going to allow | 1:11:55 | 1:11:58 | |
-Northern Ireland to wash along in its wake. -That's not true. | 1:11:58 | 1:12:01 | |
You have to remember, we currently have probably the most | 1:12:01 | 1:12:04 | |
imaginative constitutional settlement in the world, | 1:12:04 | 1:12:07 | |
in that people could here can be British or Irish or both, | 1:12:07 | 1:12:10 | |
and that took creativity and solutions | 1:12:10 | 1:12:12 | |
and bringing a lot of people together for the ideas. | 1:12:12 | 1:12:15 | |
And we think there's a lot on the table, there are models out there. | 1:12:15 | 1:12:18 | |
Hold on, Ian Paisley, I will come back to you. | 1:12:18 | 1:12:20 | |
You'll have a perfectly good opportunity to reply. | 1:12:20 | 1:12:23 | |
John O'Dowd, all this talk about | 1:12:23 | 1:12:25 | |
we can delay it, we can do this... You can't. | 1:12:25 | 1:12:28 | |
Westminster will decide if and when | 1:12:28 | 1:12:31 | |
the United Kingdom pulls out of Europe. | 1:12:31 | 1:12:33 | |
This hasn't been a popular revolution, | 1:12:33 | 1:12:36 | |
as has been portrayed by Ian Paisley Jr. | 1:12:36 | 1:12:38 | |
It hasn't been a revolution in the style of the Tooting Popular Front. | 1:12:38 | 1:12:42 | |
It has been a fallout among Eton toffs, which has dragged | 1:12:42 | 1:12:46 | |
ordinary men and women across these islands into a dispute | 1:12:46 | 1:12:48 | |
which was not of their making, but they will pay the consequences. | 1:12:48 | 1:12:52 | |
You said it's the biggest social and economic shock since Partition. | 1:12:52 | 1:12:55 | |
-It is. -It's a kind of a revolution, isn't it? | 1:12:55 | 1:12:57 | |
Well, there's been many revolutions down through history, | 1:12:57 | 1:13:00 | |
not all of them have been good revolutions. | 1:13:00 | 1:13:01 | |
Sometimes you need a counter-revolution | 1:13:01 | 1:13:04 | |
or a new revolution to bring the reality of the situation into focus. | 1:13:04 | 1:13:07 | |
The most worrying video which you have shown us tonight | 1:13:07 | 1:13:11 | |
was Theresa Villiers. | 1:13:11 | 1:13:12 | |
Theresa Villiers clearly doesn't have a clue | 1:13:12 | 1:13:15 | |
about the economic make-up of this island, | 1:13:15 | 1:13:17 | |
the social or cultural make-up of this island | 1:13:17 | 1:13:20 | |
and the history of this island. | 1:13:20 | 1:13:22 | |
And the best thing Theresa Villiers can do ahead of any negotiations | 1:13:22 | 1:13:26 | |
is go home. | 1:13:26 | 1:13:27 | |
I don't suspect the next one will be any better, | 1:13:27 | 1:13:30 | |
but after watching that tonight, Theresa Villiers needs to go home | 1:13:30 | 1:13:34 | |
and allow those who understand the make-up of this island | 1:13:34 | 1:13:36 | |
to get on with the negotiation because there will be a deal, | 1:13:36 | 1:13:39 | |
I've no doubt there will be a deal. | 1:13:39 | 1:13:41 | |
But what is a good deal to me | 1:13:41 | 1:13:43 | |
and to the people of the North and the people of Ireland is a totally | 1:13:43 | 1:13:46 | |
different deal to what would be good for Theresa Villiers and others. | 1:13:46 | 1:13:50 | |
And we have to ensure that the Dublin government, | 1:13:50 | 1:13:52 | |
local politicians, work out a deal which recognises | 1:13:52 | 1:13:56 | |
the political, social and economic history of this island | 1:13:56 | 1:13:59 | |
and protects the rights of everyone on the island. | 1:13:59 | 1:14:01 | |
Do you think, Mike Nesbitt, that an all-Ireland approach is required | 1:14:01 | 1:14:05 | |
to get the best deal for everyone in this place? | 1:14:05 | 1:14:08 | |
What I think, Noel, is that the result is a result | 1:14:09 | 1:14:12 | |
and it's now up to us as politicians to implement it. | 1:14:12 | 1:14:15 | |
But the surprising thing is that there is no plan. | 1:14:15 | 1:14:18 | |
The Northern Ireland executive doesn't have a plan, | 1:14:18 | 1:14:20 | |
the UK government doesn't have a plan, Europe doesn't have a plan. | 1:14:20 | 1:14:23 | |
And most shockingly of all, | 1:14:23 | 1:14:25 | |
those who led the Brexit campaign do not have a plan. | 1:14:25 | 1:14:28 | |
And that is why we have now entered | 1:14:28 | 1:14:30 | |
an era of uncertainty, which will last longer than the two years | 1:14:30 | 1:14:34 | |
that will follow the triggering of this Article 50. | 1:14:34 | 1:14:37 | |
And what we need is some certainty. | 1:14:37 | 1:14:39 | |
And those who masterminded Brexit | 1:14:39 | 1:14:41 | |
have to manage expectations because, as people have said, | 1:14:41 | 1:14:45 | |
people are expecting £350 million a week for the NHS. | 1:14:45 | 1:14:48 | |
That money doesn't exist... | 1:14:48 | 1:14:49 | |
And should never have been promised, according to Nigel Farage. | 1:14:49 | 1:14:53 | |
We were promised that there would be drastic action on immigration. | 1:14:53 | 1:14:56 | |
It's now clear from what Dan and Anne said | 1:14:56 | 1:14:58 | |
that's not going to happen either. | 1:14:58 | 1:15:00 | |
Coming the other way, Brussels are saying, "Get on with it. | 1:15:00 | 1:15:03 | |
"And, if you want to stay in the single market, | 1:15:03 | 1:15:05 | |
"you will do it on our terms, by our rules." | 1:15:05 | 1:15:07 | |
The three of you have said there's no plan. | 1:15:07 | 1:15:09 | |
Ian Paisley was saying all along there is. What is the plan? | 1:15:09 | 1:15:12 | |
I think, first of all, we have to... | 1:15:12 | 1:15:15 | |
we must address the denial that this has taken place. | 1:15:15 | 1:15:18 | |
And there's a denial that there's now going to be a consequence. | 1:15:18 | 1:15:21 | |
There is a consequence and the consequence is negotiations now. | 1:15:21 | 1:15:25 | |
On Monday, in the House, the Prime Minister outlined that he had | 1:15:25 | 1:15:28 | |
already established a working group within the Cabinet. | 1:15:28 | 1:15:32 | |
The first meeting of that working group has already taken place. | 1:15:32 | 1:15:35 | |
Indeed, parties like my own have already been approached | 1:15:35 | 1:15:38 | |
to make contact and to start putting the ideas on the table. | 1:15:38 | 1:15:42 | |
So if others are being left out or are excluding themselves | 1:15:42 | 1:15:45 | |
because they're not keeping up with what's happening in the class, | 1:15:45 | 1:15:48 | |
that's a matter for them. | 1:15:48 | 1:15:49 | |
So the plan is let's negotiate and see what happens. | 1:15:49 | 1:15:52 | |
-It's not much of a plan. -I think, in all negotiations... Remember, | 1:15:52 | 1:15:56 | |
this is about our money and freeing our money so we don't have to | 1:15:56 | 1:16:00 | |
give it to Europe, and then wait for Europe to give some of it back | 1:16:00 | 1:16:03 | |
and then spend the rest the way they wish to spend it. | 1:16:03 | 1:16:06 | |
So we are working to make sure we can get that money spent on ourselves. | 1:16:06 | 1:16:10 | |
And out of that, Northern Ireland, | 1:16:10 | 1:16:12 | |
even by a minor calculation, using the Barnett formula alone, | 1:16:12 | 1:16:15 | |
will be almost £1 billion, almost £600 million, | 1:16:15 | 1:16:18 | |
better off a year, every year, going forward | 1:16:18 | 1:16:21 | |
from the day we actually release ourselves from Europe. | 1:16:21 | 1:16:23 | |
Let me bring in John O'Dowd on that important point. | 1:16:23 | 1:16:25 | |
I think those who support the Leave campaign should be careful with throwing out figures | 1:16:25 | 1:16:29 | |
because their figures have proven to be wrong. | 1:16:29 | 1:16:32 | |
If you start throwing out grandiose figures now, | 1:16:32 | 1:16:34 | |
they could be proved wrong in the future. | 1:16:34 | 1:16:36 | |
So let's approach it in a sensible, rational fashion. | 1:16:36 | 1:16:38 | |
Firstly, the Prime Minister is organising negotiations. | 1:16:38 | 1:16:43 | |
-There is no Prime Minister. -There is a Prime Minister! | 1:16:43 | 1:16:45 | |
David Cameron stepped out of Downing Street on Friday morning | 1:16:45 | 1:16:50 | |
and announced he was standing down because he couldn't lead | 1:16:50 | 1:16:54 | |
the Brexit negotiations to leave | 1:16:54 | 1:16:56 | |
because he didn't... He didn't say these words, | 1:16:56 | 1:16:58 | |
but he doesn't have the control of the Conservative Party. | 1:16:58 | 1:17:01 | |
-You're in denial. -Please let everyone else speak. | 1:17:01 | 1:17:04 | |
He doesn't have the control of the Conservative Party | 1:17:04 | 1:17:06 | |
and he doesn't have the backing of various regions | 1:17:06 | 1:17:08 | |
of what is referred to as the United Kingdom, | 1:17:08 | 1:17:10 | |
so there is no Prime Minister to lead negotiations. | 1:17:10 | 1:17:13 | |
What we have to do and ensure is that the rights of entitlement | 1:17:13 | 1:17:17 | |
of the people on this island, in the North, who voted against the Leave, | 1:17:17 | 1:17:22 | |
they voted to Remain, are protected. | 1:17:22 | 1:17:24 | |
Those aren't different from the rights of the people in the North of England or Scotland or Wales. | 1:17:24 | 1:17:28 | |
They are in a geographical and political sense. | 1:17:28 | 1:17:30 | |
We are the only part of these islands | 1:17:30 | 1:17:33 | |
with a boarder now with the EU. | 1:17:33 | 1:17:35 | |
That has a reality for those people you were speaking to | 1:17:35 | 1:17:38 | |
in South Armagh and South Down | 1:17:38 | 1:17:39 | |
and it will have a reality for us all across these islands, | 1:17:39 | 1:17:42 | |
so we have to deal with that. | 1:17:42 | 1:17:44 | |
We are the only people who have a contested part - | 1:17:44 | 1:17:47 | |
well, Scotland is certainly entering that territory, which is protected | 1:17:47 | 1:17:50 | |
under an international agreement known as the Good Friday Agreement. | 1:17:50 | 1:17:53 | |
So all those things have to be taken into account and they have to | 1:17:53 | 1:17:56 | |
be dealt with, and our rights and entitlements have to be supported. | 1:17:56 | 1:17:59 | |
In what way, Mike Nesbitt, might that led to | 1:17:59 | 1:18:02 | |
some kind of different deal for the people of Northern Ireland? | 1:18:02 | 1:18:06 | |
-I don't know the answer to that. -Would you like to see one? | 1:18:06 | 1:18:09 | |
-I would like... -A special deal. | 1:18:09 | 1:18:11 | |
I'd like the Brexiteers to tell us what the plan is. | 1:18:11 | 1:18:14 | |
Now, I've said I accept the result. | 1:18:14 | 1:18:16 | |
I also think it would be a very foolish unionist who did not | 1:18:16 | 1:18:19 | |
acknowledge the two component parts to the United Kingdom - | 1:18:19 | 1:18:22 | |
Scotland and Northern Ireland - had majorities voting to remain. | 1:18:22 | 1:18:25 | |
I am amazed the Secretary of State is not aware | 1:18:25 | 1:18:28 | |
that there are nationalists who, over the last few years, were | 1:18:28 | 1:18:31 | |
content to live in Northern Ireland, within the United Kingdom, | 1:18:31 | 1:18:35 | |
because we were also in Europe | 1:18:35 | 1:18:37 | |
and part of their identity | 1:18:37 | 1:18:38 | |
was their ability to express their Europeanness. | 1:18:38 | 1:18:41 | |
For them, this has changed everything | 1:18:41 | 1:18:43 | |
and Unionists need to listen to them and be empathetic to them | 1:18:43 | 1:18:46 | |
because this is potentially a nationalist Anglo-Irish agreement, | 1:18:46 | 1:18:51 | |
where people from outside have come in | 1:18:51 | 1:18:54 | |
and impose something against their will. | 1:18:54 | 1:18:56 | |
Let me ask Claire Hanna for a nationalist view on that. | 1:18:56 | 1:18:59 | |
The point is, yes, it's not just a nationalist view to say | 1:18:59 | 1:19:02 | |
people here know better for people here and not people in England. | 1:19:02 | 1:19:05 | |
That's not just a nationalist view, | 1:19:05 | 1:19:06 | |
that is the whole purpose of devolution. | 1:19:06 | 1:19:08 | |
The DUP can't keep picking and choosing which majorities they'll go far. | 1:19:08 | 1:19:12 | |
They don't agree... The whole of the UK agrees... | 1:19:12 | 1:19:15 | |
supports equal marriage and they won't have that in here. | 1:19:15 | 1:19:18 | |
The whole of the UK flies our flag, they won't have that here. | 1:19:18 | 1:19:21 | |
And it took them decades to accept the Good Friday Agreement. | 1:19:21 | 1:19:23 | |
It's no wonder they don't like Europe - | 1:19:23 | 1:19:25 | |
that was about pooling your ideas and your resources and your power | 1:19:25 | 1:19:28 | |
to get a better deal for everyone and they threw that away. | 1:19:28 | 1:19:31 | |
But that included the principle of consent. | 1:19:31 | 1:19:33 | |
And consent has not been given | 1:19:33 | 1:19:35 | |
to change the constitutional status | 1:19:35 | 1:19:37 | |
or to change the status of us being in Europe. | 1:19:37 | 1:19:39 | |
So there are options, and we need to not just wash along, as I say, | 1:19:39 | 1:19:43 | |
we need to do what Nicola Sturgeon is doing and she's going there, | 1:19:43 | 1:19:47 | |
she's negotiating. We need to be in Dublin, we need to be in Brussels | 1:19:47 | 1:19:50 | |
and we need to be having those conversations. | 1:19:50 | 1:19:52 | |
And we need to be having them as well. There's no more money. | 1:19:52 | 1:19:55 | |
The fiscal tightening that's coming in the autumn budget, | 1:19:55 | 1:19:58 | |
there's no more money coming from there. | 1:19:58 | 1:19:59 | |
Ian Paisley, will you be dealing directly with Dublin to figure out | 1:19:59 | 1:20:03 | |
the best way to help the majority of people in this island? | 1:20:03 | 1:20:06 | |
Again, I'm not the one in denial. | 1:20:06 | 1:20:08 | |
I believe that a good negotiation is a listening negotiation | 1:20:08 | 1:20:12 | |
as well as a talking negotiation. | 1:20:12 | 1:20:13 | |
Of course we will be making the points already | 1:20:13 | 1:20:16 | |
to Her Majesty's Government, | 1:20:16 | 1:20:17 | |
these are the issues that will affect this part | 1:20:17 | 1:20:20 | |
of the United Kingdom, these are the issues which must be addressed. | 1:20:20 | 1:20:22 | |
And in order to form a complete picture of that, | 1:20:22 | 1:20:25 | |
of course there must be good, responsive, | 1:20:25 | 1:20:27 | |
cooperative discussions with the Irish government | 1:20:27 | 1:20:30 | |
and between the devolved Assembly and the Irish government. | 1:20:30 | 1:20:33 | |
It's important that all the people around the table - | 1:20:33 | 1:20:35 | |
that'll include Sinn Fein the SDLP, and the Ulster Unionists, | 1:20:35 | 1:20:38 | |
if they all want to be there - | 1:20:38 | 1:20:40 | |
that they make those points and feed into that | 1:20:40 | 1:20:42 | |
because that Cabinet working group will be more than just | 1:20:42 | 1:20:45 | |
a Conservative Party working group. | 1:20:45 | 1:20:47 | |
We've got to address these points. | 1:20:47 | 1:20:49 | |
I really don't mind what the machinations are | 1:20:49 | 1:20:52 | |
within the Conservative Party. | 1:20:52 | 1:20:54 | |
But I was part of a national movement | 1:20:54 | 1:20:56 | |
that was led by people like Gisele Stuart, | 1:20:56 | 1:20:58 | |
hardly an Eton toff, Kate Hoey, hardly an Eton toff, | 1:20:58 | 1:21:01 | |
people who were making key points and saying, you know, | 1:21:01 | 1:21:04 | |
the little person in the United Kingdom is left out by this entire agreement. | 1:21:04 | 1:21:08 | |
They want to have a new beginning and a better start for the UK | 1:21:08 | 1:21:11 | |
and that's what we're doing, | 1:21:11 | 1:21:12 | |
and I don't ignore the fact that there were more people | 1:21:12 | 1:21:16 | |
in Northern Ireland voted to remain than there were to leave. | 1:21:16 | 1:21:19 | |
But I also recognise the fact that in my constituency, | 1:21:19 | 1:21:22 | |
in Mike's constituency in South Antrim, across Northern Ireland, | 1:21:22 | 1:21:26 | |
the vast majority in those areas said, "We want to leave." | 1:21:26 | 1:21:29 | |
We must make sure that that balance is brought to bear. | 1:21:29 | 1:21:32 | |
Let's get everyone else in, if I may. | 1:21:32 | 1:21:34 | |
John O'Dowd, talk of border pollers - | 1:21:34 | 1:21:37 | |
distracting and nonsensical, isn't it? | 1:21:37 | 1:21:39 | |
No, because when we have a constitutional crisis, | 1:21:39 | 1:21:44 | |
as has been landed upon us by the Brexit vote, | 1:21:44 | 1:21:47 | |
then we will always put forward | 1:21:47 | 1:21:49 | |
that a united Ireland is the most sensible alternative moving forward. | 1:21:49 | 1:21:54 | |
As an Irish republican, I reserve that right on any occasion | 1:21:54 | 1:21:57 | |
to demand a border poll. | 1:21:57 | 1:21:58 | |
I believe that the social economic destiny of this island | 1:21:58 | 1:22:02 | |
is within the reunification of Ireland. | 1:22:02 | 1:22:05 | |
But you that know a border poll would not win. | 1:22:05 | 1:22:08 | |
No, I don't know that. | 1:22:08 | 1:22:09 | |
Those who put that back to me say it is not going to win. | 1:22:09 | 1:22:12 | |
I put the challenge out to them - let's have one. | 1:22:12 | 1:22:14 | |
Let's have a sensible, mature debate. | 1:22:14 | 1:22:16 | |
Let's have an economic debate on it. | 1:22:16 | 1:22:17 | |
I have always believed in Irish unity and probably believe in it | 1:22:17 | 1:22:20 | |
even more now, but it still has to be agreed and planned and we have | 1:22:20 | 1:22:23 | |
just seen what a leap into the dark is in a referendum that | 1:22:23 | 1:22:26 | |
doesn't have a clear question. | 1:22:26 | 1:22:27 | |
We have just seen the passions that is arises in people, so it would be | 1:22:27 | 1:22:32 | |
unstable and it would be lost. | 1:22:32 | 1:22:33 | |
But I think it is important to say, fundamentally, | 1:22:33 | 1:22:35 | |
the relationship between a lot of moderate nationalists | 1:22:35 | 1:22:38 | |
and the UK has been altered and that needs to be taken into account. | 1:22:38 | 1:22:41 | |
Do you fear Brexit might change the result of a border poll? | 1:22:41 | 1:22:45 | |
The law says the Secretary of State can only call it | 1:22:45 | 1:22:47 | |
if she believes there is a likelihood that there'll be a | 1:22:47 | 1:22:50 | |
change in the constitutional status - | 1:22:50 | 1:22:51 | |
there is no evidence for that. | 1:22:51 | 1:22:53 | |
I think if she called it, she would find herself in front of the court | 1:22:53 | 1:22:56 | |
with a judicial review. | 1:22:56 | 1:22:57 | |
What we really want to know is who will guarantee that | 1:22:57 | 1:23:00 | |
nobody in Northern Ireland, no individual, no farmer, | 1:23:00 | 1:23:03 | |
no voluntary or community sector group, no university | 1:23:03 | 1:23:05 | |
is going to be worse off after we are out of Europe | 1:23:05 | 1:23:08 | |
and we don't have the money. | 1:23:08 | 1:23:09 | |
Thank you all very much indeed. | 1:23:09 | 1:23:11 | |
One unfortunate outcome of Thursday's vote - a reported | 1:23:11 | 1:23:14 | |
outbreak of racist intimidation across the UK. | 1:23:14 | 1:23:17 | |
Families here too have spoken of unpleasant confrontations. | 1:23:17 | 1:23:21 | |
Stephen Dempster met with one Polish family at worship in East Belfast, | 1:23:21 | 1:23:25 | |
the only constituency in the city to vote Leave. | 1:23:25 | 1:23:27 | |
Sunday morning, east Belfast - | 1:23:35 | 1:23:38 | |
a protestant, unionist heartland, | 1:23:38 | 1:23:43 | |
and members of the Polish community are gathered for a Catholic | 1:23:43 | 1:23:46 | |
mass at St Anthony's church on the Woodstock Road. | 1:23:46 | 1:23:50 | |
SPEAKS POLISH | 1:23:55 | 1:23:56 | |
The decision to leave the EU is now testing this immigrant | 1:23:59 | 1:24:04 | |
community's faith that it has a future in this part of the UK. | 1:24:04 | 1:24:08 | |
I have a business in here the last four years and I don't think it | 1:24:12 | 1:24:16 | |
will change much for the next couple of years, | 1:24:16 | 1:24:20 | |
but I can't even imagine to pack myself and back to Poland. | 1:24:20 | 1:24:24 | |
There's nothing in there for me. I left everything. | 1:24:24 | 1:24:28 | |
Now I'm just thinking about this very quietly | 1:24:28 | 1:24:31 | |
and I hope everything will be fine. | 1:24:31 | 1:24:33 | |
I feel like Northern Ireland, Belfast, is my home. | 1:24:33 | 1:24:37 | |
The Polish community is the largest group of foreign nationals here, | 1:24:38 | 1:24:42 | |
believed to be well over 20,000 people. | 1:24:42 | 1:24:45 | |
Daniel and Dorothy Konieczny have lived in Northern Ireland | 1:24:53 | 1:24:56 | |
since 2004. | 1:24:56 | 1:24:59 | |
The majority of their friends are Northern Irish. | 1:24:59 | 1:25:02 | |
I like people from here, they are more friendly, | 1:25:02 | 1:25:06 | |
I would say, they're more helpful. | 1:25:06 | 1:25:08 | |
It doesn't matter if it's an old person or a young person. | 1:25:08 | 1:25:11 | |
When I came here and I was walking through the streets, | 1:25:11 | 1:25:15 | |
everyone was like, "All right, all right, mate?" | 1:25:15 | 1:25:18 | |
Yes, people are very friendly here. | 1:25:18 | 1:25:21 | |
Two best mans were local people in our wedding. | 1:25:21 | 1:25:25 | |
The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Amen. | 1:25:25 | 1:25:30 | |
They feel a genuine sense of commitment to Northern Ireland. | 1:25:30 | 1:25:33 | |
There is a moment when you just realise, | 1:25:35 | 1:25:37 | |
it's not any more home as Poland, it is home in Belfast. | 1:25:37 | 1:25:42 | |
It's like that's the switch in your mind | 1:25:42 | 1:25:45 | |
and then you know your home is here, basically, yes. | 1:25:45 | 1:25:48 | |
Now that the UK is to quit the EU, | 1:25:52 | 1:25:55 | |
they're uncertain what the future holds for them | 1:25:55 | 1:25:57 | |
and their five-year-old daughter, Emily, who was born here. | 1:25:57 | 1:26:01 | |
What happens to EU nationals has not yet been decided by government. | 1:26:02 | 1:26:07 | |
I feel that we don't know what is our position now. We are confused. | 1:26:07 | 1:26:12 | |
We don't know what actual rights we are going to have. | 1:26:12 | 1:26:14 | |
We don't know what we can do. | 1:26:14 | 1:26:17 | |
Immigration played a crucial role in the vote. | 1:26:17 | 1:26:20 | |
Those who fear the impact of foreign nationals on public services | 1:26:20 | 1:26:24 | |
and jobs welcomed the promise of border controls. | 1:26:24 | 1:26:27 | |
Daniel moved here when a recruitment agency in Poland came | 1:26:31 | 1:26:35 | |
looking for him because a factory in Lisburn needed workers. | 1:26:35 | 1:26:39 | |
And now he and Dorothy run several businesses, | 1:26:41 | 1:26:44 | |
contributing to the NI economy and employing 11 people. | 1:26:44 | 1:26:48 | |
I don't feel comfortable when they say we are stealing their jobs | 1:26:49 | 1:26:53 | |
because everyone has the same opportunity to go | 1:26:53 | 1:26:57 | |
and find a job, to start working. | 1:26:57 | 1:26:59 | |
I am cross with someone who would say, "Oh, you are Polish, | 1:26:59 | 1:27:03 | |
"or you from there, and you are stealing our opportunity to work." | 1:27:03 | 1:27:06 | |
I know not all the people is going to be looking this way. | 1:27:06 | 1:27:11 | |
Most of the people they will treat us as usual. | 1:27:11 | 1:27:15 | |
I felt unwelcome in 2004 because that was a big thing, | 1:27:15 | 1:27:21 | |
throwing all that... A bit racist. | 1:27:21 | 1:27:24 | |
There's more integration now than it was | 1:27:24 | 1:27:27 | |
whenever we came here, basically, but raising the issue, | 1:27:27 | 1:27:31 | |
saying, "Immigrants", and, "We don't need them", | 1:27:31 | 1:27:34 | |
and all that stuff, it's quite challenging. | 1:27:34 | 1:27:37 | |
Like everyone else, the Konieczny family now face an uncertain | 1:27:39 | 1:27:43 | |
wait to see how the post-Brexit world takes shape. | 1:27:43 | 1:27:47 | |
Let's see if we can sum it up with our next guests, Fintan O'Toole | 1:27:48 | 1:27:51 | |
of the Irish Times and the commentator Alex Kane. | 1:27:51 | 1:27:54 | |
Fintan O'Toole, you have said the Brexit vote put a bomb | 1:27:54 | 1:27:58 | |
under the peace process. | 1:27:58 | 1:27:59 | |
Was that something you write that in the heat of the moment? | 1:27:59 | 1:28:02 | |
No, people argue about the language | 1:28:02 | 1:28:04 | |
but this is the most scandalously reckless political movement | 1:28:04 | 1:28:08 | |
that we have seen in our lifetimes in a democratic society. | 1:28:08 | 1:28:12 | |
Anybody watching the debate, as it unfolded in the UK as a whole, | 1:28:13 | 1:28:17 | |
would have been struck by the degree | 1:28:17 | 1:28:19 | |
to which Northern Ireland didn't matter. | 1:28:19 | 1:28:21 | |
There are four really serious things | 1:28:21 | 1:28:24 | |
happening to Northern Ireland - | 1:28:24 | 1:28:26 | |
one is that there is a hard border. | 1:28:26 | 1:28:27 | |
This fantasy somehow that you can both have immigration control | 1:28:27 | 1:28:32 | |
and an open border between the United Kingdom and the EU, | 1:28:32 | 1:28:36 | |
it just doesn't stand up for a moment. | 1:28:36 | 1:28:38 | |
The only chance that it is not going to happen is that the Leave | 1:28:38 | 1:28:42 | |
campaigners were lying about that as much as they were | 1:28:42 | 1:28:44 | |
lying about everything else, which is a possibility | 1:28:44 | 1:28:47 | |
because this was one of the most mendacious campaigns | 1:28:47 | 1:28:49 | |
we've ever seen. | 1:28:49 | 1:28:50 | |
This was a core issue for them and the whole momentum in British | 1:28:50 | 1:28:54 | |
politics is towards control of immigration. | 1:28:54 | 1:28:57 | |
You cannot control immigration without a hard border. | 1:28:57 | 1:29:00 | |
The second thing is that the UK breaking up, | 1:29:00 | 1:29:04 | |
they didn't care about that. | 1:29:04 | 1:29:06 | |
The third thing is that there is a rise of English nationalism | 1:29:06 | 1:29:10 | |
which people are not paying attention to. | 1:29:10 | 1:29:12 | |
This is English nationalism. | 1:29:12 | 1:29:14 | |
Do you really think that the new ruling class in England, | 1:29:14 | 1:29:17 | |
which is willing to get rid of Scotland, | 1:29:17 | 1:29:19 | |
didn't care enough about Scotland to leave it go, is going | 1:29:19 | 1:29:23 | |
to care enough about Northern Ireland to put all of this | 1:29:23 | 1:29:25 | |
money that is being taken out from the EU back into Northern Ireland? | 1:29:25 | 1:29:30 | |
They do not care and they made it very clear they don't care. | 1:29:30 | 1:29:33 | |
The final point is that all of this is going to happen | 1:29:33 | 1:29:36 | |
in an economic crisis. | 1:29:36 | 1:29:37 | |
The economic cost of this, at the very least in the short-term, | 1:29:37 | 1:29:42 | |
is pretty catastrophic. | 1:29:42 | 1:29:43 | |
You agree it is a revolution, | 1:29:43 | 1:29:46 | |
but a revolution of the patronised and ignored in your view? | 1:29:46 | 1:29:49 | |
It is. I think there is a hard-core of English working class, | 1:29:49 | 1:29:54 | |
particularly on the sink estates, who have believed in the past 30, | 1:29:54 | 1:29:57 | |
40 years, that they have been ignored. | 1:29:57 | 1:29:59 | |
They have no confidence in Labour or Conservative. | 1:29:59 | 1:30:02 | |
They don't see either of those parties as representing them. | 1:30:02 | 1:30:05 | |
I'm not even sure they see a party like Ukip or the | 1:30:05 | 1:30:07 | |
English Defence League as representing them. | 1:30:07 | 1:30:10 | |
They got it into their heads, and it came through Ukip, | 1:30:10 | 1:30:12 | |
they got it into their heads they could hurt the establishment | 1:30:12 | 1:30:15 | |
and they decided to do that. | 1:30:15 | 1:30:17 | |
In terms of what Fintan was talking about, | 1:30:17 | 1:30:20 | |
the only other referendum I remember in detail | 1:30:20 | 1:30:22 | |
was the Good Friday Agreement. | 1:30:22 | 1:30:24 | |
I remember on the day the count came in, May 1998, | 1:30:24 | 1:30:27 | |
talking and interviewing leading figures from both the Yes and No | 1:30:27 | 1:30:30 | |
campaigns, asking them what they thought Northern Ireland | 1:30:30 | 1:30:33 | |
would look like in ten or 20 years' time. | 1:30:33 | 1:30:35 | |
Looking back over those notes in the past couple of days, | 1:30:35 | 1:30:37 | |
they were mostly wrong on every single issue. | 1:30:37 | 1:30:40 | |
I just think, at this stage in Northern Ireland and | 1:30:40 | 1:30:42 | |
everyone across the United Kingdom, were in the shock phase. | 1:30:42 | 1:30:45 | |
No-one expected this result. | 1:30:45 | 1:30:47 | |
Fintan is right, nobody had anything. | 1:30:47 | 1:30:51 | |
He is completely right. It was lie upon lie from both sides. | 1:30:51 | 1:30:55 | |
In the longer term , you have written that you don't believe | 1:30:55 | 1:30:57 | |
Northern Ireland can be sustained in its current position outside the EU? | 1:30:57 | 1:31:02 | |
I am not happy about that, I'm not advocating this, | 1:31:02 | 1:31:04 | |
but I think if you look at it objectively, where are we heading? | 1:31:04 | 1:31:08 | |
We're heading towards an English national state. | 1:31:08 | 1:31:11 | |
The genie that's been let out of the bottle is English nationalism | 1:31:11 | 1:31:14 | |
and it's proved to be a much more powerful force | 1:31:14 | 1:31:16 | |
than anybody suspected. | 1:31:16 | 1:31:17 | |
Its logic is the break-up of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland | 1:31:17 | 1:31:22 | |
as an appendage of an English national state, | 1:31:22 | 1:31:26 | |
which is governed by English nationalism, is not interested | 1:31:26 | 1:31:29 | |
in Northern Ireland, not interested in Scotland, | 1:31:29 | 1:31:31 | |
not interested in the European Union is not sustainable. | 1:31:31 | 1:31:34 | |
This is why the whole architecture of the peace process is | 1:31:34 | 1:31:38 | |
really being very deeply undermined. | 1:31:38 | 1:31:40 | |
We are going to have to think very carefully about what the future | 1:31:40 | 1:31:44 | |
is and I don't think this is something we panic about, or it's | 1:31:44 | 1:31:46 | |
an excuse for anybody to go back to any kind of violence, but we have to | 1:31:46 | 1:31:49 | |
think about one of the relationships in this new world between | 1:31:49 | 1:31:52 | |
Scotland, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. | 1:31:52 | 1:31:55 | |
It may well be that those entities have to start thinking about very | 1:31:55 | 1:31:58 | |
close relationships within the European Union. | 1:31:58 | 1:32:01 | |
That may be something that none of us ever thought about. | 1:32:01 | 1:32:04 | |
The real problem here is, if you think about the Scottish | 1:32:04 | 1:32:07 | |
referendum, the independence referendum, the SNP, | 1:32:07 | 1:32:10 | |
whether you agree Scottish independence or not, | 1:32:10 | 1:32:13 | |
they produced a 650-page document on what the future | 1:32:13 | 1:32:16 | |
was as they proposed it. | 1:32:16 | 1:32:17 | |
These people, this reckless ruling class, hasn't even got the | 1:32:18 | 1:32:22 | |
back of a cigarette packet and they are creating anarchy. | 1:32:22 | 1:32:26 | |
You can see at the moment that you have no effective government in | 1:32:26 | 1:32:29 | |
England, no effective opposition and nobody knows where this will all go. | 1:32:29 | 1:32:33 | |
I would predict that this is not over, | 1:32:33 | 1:32:35 | |
that this question will be reopened, because it will have to be. | 1:32:35 | 1:32:39 | |
Oddly enough, I am not that pessimistic. | 1:32:39 | 1:32:42 | |
I think what will happen is I agree there is an English | 1:32:42 | 1:32:45 | |
nationalism that has been awakened, | 1:32:45 | 1:32:47 | |
but they are not going to be represented in the next Parliament. | 1:32:47 | 1:32:50 | |
I think there will be an early election and I think it will be | 1:32:50 | 1:32:53 | |
Conservatives and Labour. Very few Ukip will make the breakthrough. | 1:32:53 | 1:32:57 | |
-It is not Ukip! It is the Tories, the government! -I don't think... | 1:32:57 | 1:33:00 | |
What about Ireland, as it's been suggested, | 1:33:00 | 1:33:02 | |
thinking about its position in the EU? | 1:33:02 | 1:33:04 | |
Ireland will have to think, but one thing that is crucial in all of | 1:33:04 | 1:33:09 | |
this, that triangle - London, Dublin, Belfast triangle - matters. | 1:33:09 | 1:33:12 | |
I think Brussels will give them a fairly easy ride. | 1:33:12 | 1:33:15 | |
Some people believe the peace process is in trouble. | 1:33:15 | 1:33:18 | |
They will go out of their way... And going back to that 1998 point again, | 1:33:18 | 1:33:21 | |
so many things I was told. You have been there. | 1:33:21 | 1:33:24 | |
We're told it could never happen, would never happen, | 1:33:24 | 1:33:26 | |
were not possible, miraculously to save something, | 1:33:26 | 1:33:30 | |
they all become possible. | 1:33:30 | 1:33:31 | |
Everyone is gloomy at the moment - I can understand that. | 1:33:31 | 1:33:34 | |
-It is not as bad as it looks. -Gentleman, thank you both very much. | 1:33:34 | 1:33:36 | |
One thing we can be sure of, there'll be lots more drama in the | 1:33:36 | 1:33:40 | |
next days, weeks and years. | 1:33:40 | 1:33:41 | |
From all on the Spotlight team, a very good night. | 1:33:41 | 1:33:44 |