21/03/2017 Spotlight


21/03/2017

A studio audience put questions to opinion-formers. Panellists are Owen Paterson, Joan Burton, Daithi McKay, Jeffrey Donaldson and commentators Brian Feeney and Lesley Riddoch.


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Hello and welcome to Spotlight Special, where our studio audience

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put questions to our panel of politicians and commentators on the

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week's talking points. None bigger today than the death of Martin

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McGuinness at the age of 66. Tributes have paid fulsome praise to

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his efforts as a peacemaker, without forgetting his role as an IRA leader

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in the Troubles. We are joined by the former Secretary of State Owen

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Paterson. Joan Burton, said Jeffrey Donaldson, the DUP MP, Lesley

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Riddoch who spent her formative years in Northern Ireland but now

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plies her trade in Scotland as political writer and commentator.

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Brian Feeney and the formal Sinn Fein MLA Daithi McKay. That's our

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panel tonight for the Spotlight Special. And of course you can take

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part at home. Here's how you can get in touch on all of tonight's topics.

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You can text at the standard rate. You can also phone us. Standard

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geographic charges from landlines and mobiles will apply. You can also

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e-mail us and tweaked your comments to us. You can follow the programme

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at twitter. The details are on your screen now.

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Let's get right into the questions. The first one comes from Michael

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Taylor, a historian. How should history remember Martin

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McGuinness? How should history remember Martin

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McGuinness? He passed away in the early hours of this morning at the

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age of 66. The airways have been full of tributes to him of various

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kinds. Enda Kenny said he was a peacemaker who took the path from

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terror to truce. Tony Blair said he was a formidable foe and a

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formidable peacemaker. Norman Tebbit said he was a coward who never

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atoned for his crimes. This lots and lots of different Let's hear what

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our panic panel think. Jeffrey Donaldson, how should history

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remember Martin McGuinness? I think it will be a mixed memory.

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Today, across Northern Ireland there will be many people with very

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different views on Martin McGuinness. Our thoughts are with

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the McGuinness family, losing a husband and father is a dramatic

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thing for any family. Equally there are families in Northern Ireland who

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are missing husbands and fathers and other family members because of the

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violent campaign of the IRA. Today will have been a difficult day for

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them. I think that history will look at

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Martin McGuinness and his role as a senior figure in the Provisional IRA

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and asked many questions about that. All of those people, those thousands

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of innocent people, did they have to die to get us to where we are today?

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I think also, and as a Unionist and someone who served in the security

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forces, who lost family, friends, comrades in the Troubles I recognise

:03:33.:03:38.

the journey Martin McGuinness has been an. That he had a great

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influence in bringing the Provisional IRA to the point of

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laying down their arms and then being fair -- ending their campaign

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of violence and we recognise that role as well. I think there will be

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mixed reviews, historically. Your personal thoughts, what will your

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final thought be? I worked with Martin McGuinness as ministers

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together in the office of Deputy First Minister and I recognised that

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he did want to make a positive contribution. That his focus had

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shifted from the past to the future, but we can't escape the legacy of

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our troubled past. Like many people in Northern Ireland, I had mixed

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feelings about today but today's a day to recognise that Martin

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McGuinness was a family man, and his family are mourning his loss this

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evening. Owen Paterson, you dealt with Martin

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McGuinness urged Shadow Secretary of State and Secretary of State. How do

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you think history will judge him? You are right. I first came here

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three years as the Shadow Secretary of State and Denver two years was

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the real Secretary of State, so I met Martin McGuinness on a regular

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basis for five years. By the time I had met him he was pursuing his

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political ambitions of promoting a united Ireland by entirely

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legitimate political means, as a Democrat politician. With using

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institutions here to promote his views and his ambition. And being a

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conservative and Unionist I didn't believe in his end destination for

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the Northern Ireland, but we had an absolutely cordial and constructive

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relationship. But, and Jeffrey raised this, I had to remember all

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along that he began pursuing those ambitions and those political

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ambitions remained with him all his life, by the most appalling, violent

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terrorist campaign, which caused many deaths, dreadful destruction

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and shocking human misery. I think you have to balance that.

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So he obviously was a man of great character and strength, and when he

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decided to turn his back on violence and move to his Democratic mode, his

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power over his colleagues was obviously very, very strong. He

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played an absolutely vital part in moving the republican movement to

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adopting peaceful means to promote their aims. But sadly there are many

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people watching this programme tonight, and many victims no longer

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here, they happily did not have that choice. I think we should remember

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them and all those people. And Martin McGuinness? And Martin

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McGuinness's own family. I saw interviews with him today,

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historical interviews in which he said he felt he had no choice when

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he joined the IRA. There was no other way of combating what was

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going on, in his view. There would be many people here that

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would no far more about the background. Having come into it, at

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the time there were Democratic peaceful institutions, you could get

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elected as Council here be an MP, you could join a political party,

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and there was a political party that wanted to pursue his aims, by

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peaceful means. So I never really understood why there was this

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campaign of appalling violence which caused such terrible damage and

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human misery. As Jeffrey said, it perhaps could have been reached by

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peaceful means much earlier. Daithi McKay, can you help Owen Paterson

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come to that conclusion? I want to express my condolences to his

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family, Bernie and the clan. Today is a very difficult days for them

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but I think Martin will be remembered as a peacemaker. He was a

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great negotiator, but I think it's real skill set over the last decade

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has been in relationships and relationship building. Often, and

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Jeffrey referred to it, things in the executive have been rocky at

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times, but Martin was a steadying force within the executive and the

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Assembly and the institutions that lasted for a whole ten years. That

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was a magnificent achievement. Of course, we all come from different

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backgrounds and Martin came on a journey, Ian Paisley came on a

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journey, the Conservative Party and their policy towards Ireland came on

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a journey as well. I don't think Martin should be singled out in the

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way he has been today, because he made an enormous contribution to

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bedding down the institutions. The real skill set he had was in

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relationship building. When you see the tributes that have been made by

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the former First Minister David Trimble, by the Reverend David

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Latimer, and by the Paisley family, you get a real sense that Martin was

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absolutely genuine about making for peace and healing those old wounds.

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Some people questioned today if it was a change of head, in other words

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a change of tactics or heart, what do you think? A change of heart. But

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Martin was always somebody, in terms of the great political debates who

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used his head. When difficult decisions had to be made, in terms

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of Sinn Fein joining the policing board, even the terms of signing up

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to the Good Friday agreement, Martin Laird with his head because he could

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see that by making compromises that wasn't necessarily a weakness. That

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we could go forward, make compromises and come out in a better

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position on the other side. And that has proven to be the case. I think

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it is also timely because we are in a difficult position in terms of the

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institutions at the moment. There negotiations ongoing and hopefully

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this will people cause to reflect on where we have actually come from as

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a society and the need to get our heads round the table and make a

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deal over the coming days and weeks, because we cannot move back, because

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what Martin wanted over the past ten years was to ensure the institutions

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worked and delivered fairly. It was suggested Gerry Adams wasn't perhaps

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as committed as much as Martin McGuinness, do you think that is a

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reasonable comment? There will be a number of comments today on a number

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of political points to be made. Only time will tell how the Sinn Fein

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negotiating team will approach the present talks. But at the end of the

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day, I think today is not a time for political point scoring between the

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different parties. I think we can put that off for a few days whilst a

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community in Derry is in mourning. You will hear from the age of three

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to 13 so you know all about it. What is your view of the legacy of Martin

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McGuinness? Well actually I think you're

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experiencing it tonight. I'm sitting here as someone who's lived in

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Scotland since I was 13 and I'm just astonished by the restraint and care

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that you're all taking, actually. People are able to see both sides of

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the man's character and his legacy and taking care to pay tribute to

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both. That in itself is quite astonishing thing, given the amount

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of real damage that's happened. It's probably fairer to say there is a

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convention on the day that someone passes away there is restraint. That

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restraint may not be there in a few days, I don't know, but I think that

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should be pointed out. If you are listening to the tributes that have

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come in from all sorts of directions... There was a fairly

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straight talking comment from Norman Tebbit, as we would expect, but

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obviously his family were so deeply involved. But when you look at the

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other remarks from Colin Parry and people like this, with a testament

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to the bravery of turning your back on the direction you state your life

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and to take your community in a different direction, all of these

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things are unexpected. I suppose that's what... I met Martin

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McGuinness in the 1990s when I took a posse over from Channel 4. In one

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Martin McGuinness and David Ervine how astonishingly unpredictable

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those two and both dead. Both were people who were unconventional and

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whose being unconventional allowed them to take people to places that

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perhaps you would never expect politics could reach. You saw for

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example pictures of Martin McGuinness meeting the Queen. What

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were the thoughts that would have gone through your head as someone

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who was in this? I think we have all seen that little clip played over

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and over again, with the Queen audibly saying, I'm still alive.

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There's a moment where you cannot believe either side's exchange of

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that, the hugeness of what they are involved in. And equally Prince

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Charles, being able to overcome the death of his uncle. All of these

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things have been admirable, actually, in their different ways.

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Martin McGuinness stands in the middle of it all. Brian Feeney,

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perhaps you could as a columnist pass some comment on the issue of

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restraint on a day like this and also throw some light on where you

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think the legacy lies. Well, I think it's too early to talk

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about legacy, it's too early to talk in terms of how history will see

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him. I should also say I'm not noted for my restraint in columns that I

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write. I'd like to put it in a bit of

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perspective. The suggestion all the time is someone who is engaged in an

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armed struggle or military campaign or resistance or what ever you want

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to call it, that is mutually exclusive that that person can only

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be either engaged in an armed struggle or can be engaged in

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politics. The fact of the matter is the IRA sued for peace on a number

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of occasions. As early as 1972 the British government invited a

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delegation which included Martin McGuinness to London to discuss

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peace terms. The meeting was a disaster, but the sort of thing he

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did doesn't automatically mean he wasn't interested in a political

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settlement from very early on. There are a number of occasions where

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British government has been involved with other organisations, where

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they've ultimately dealt with terrorists who became Prime

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Minister. For example the Prime Minister of Israel, was a very

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successful terrorist in the 1940s and became Prime Minister of Israel,

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killed a lot of British soldiers before he moved into politics. So

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isn't new to be exclusive. It's not necessarily the case that Martin

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McGuinness was blind, violent figure and then at some point had a dancing

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conversion and decided to get involved in politics. He would have

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considered he was involved in politics throughout the whole

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period. The ceasefire in 72 and in 75, ultimately the British

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government, the only thing they could do they did, which was to talk

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to the IRA, finally, in 1991. Does the British government accept

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that the Irish people have a right to self determination? And

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negotiations began from that point. Historically, one of the things that

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will be to his credit is that he rode two horses at the same time.

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John Major today said that he understood sometimes when the IRA

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brought promises because it meant that Martin McGuinness had to bring

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the hard men with him. For example, something like the Warrington bomb,

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John major said, he had to bring people with him who could have

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killed him, whereas John Major had problems in the House of Commons

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with certain people that they were not going to kill him. Joan Burton,

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what do you think is his legacy? I was in O'Connell Street and the

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anniversary of 1916, sitting beside Martin McGuinness, and there was an

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army, and the cop flew past, and he was busy taking photos of the fly

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past the centre his grandkids. By the time I met him consistently at

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North-South ministerial meetings, he was tremendously energised by how

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far the peace process had changed the north, and sitting in O'Connell

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Street, which consisted of the Irish Army, the Irish Guards, the IRA had

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many issues with them and killed quite a number of people, and the

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children, like people who have been victims here, and their relatives,

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on a day like this, of course it is mixed feelings. We remember his

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achievements but you also remember, and is somebody who grew up admiring

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John Hume, I like to feel that Gerry and John Hume had an influence on

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him that made him reach out that that further. We had another

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similarity in our backgrounds. Both of our dads were found workers. The

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political situation, which was often people who came from all

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backgrounds, both of us... We had an enormous interest in people getting

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jobs and people getting decent services, and when they were

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retired, having pensions available. We had conversations about the

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island of Ireland but to his family, my condolences. He was so proud of

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them and they were supportive of him, and he always talked about him,

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and they were always with him. In that context, with Jim Allister, who

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said Martin McGuinness took his secrets to the grade and his

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thoughts were with the victims who never reached the age of 66 and who

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never had children and grandchildren. It got the point

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where he and Gerry Adams were able recognise and meet with people on

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the one by one basis, but they were never able to get to the point where

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they would look back and say what was the point of this violence?

:19:11.:19:17.

Politics would have offered... The somebody who was very skilled at

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politics and talking to people, would have offered a much better

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read. That is why I am saying John Hume and the peace process started

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had enormous critics because of what he undertook and people talk about

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crossing bridges, journeys, all I can say is, I just hope the message

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that goes out to younger people is that the violence is not necessary.

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Politics can get you there but of course politics is a hard and

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difficult road and the essence of politics is you have days when you

:19:54.:19:56.

are up and down. Let's good to our audience. The difficulties some of

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us have is that Martin McGuinness said he was proud of his IRA past,

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and he said that very recently. That is the difficulty for victims and

:20:10.:20:17.

others looking on. Was he really a true peacemaker for saying that?

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There was no doubt he was a proud republican but if he went through it

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all again and not had to go through the conflict, he would have chosen

:20:30.:20:39.

not to go to the conflict and had a settlement in 19691970, there were

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opportunities. What I am saying is Martin and many Republicans were

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brought up in the circumstances of the environment they lived in and

:20:51.:20:54.

people from other countries were in the same circumstance they would

:20:55.:20:56.

have found themselves doing the same thing. I understand absolutely that

:20:57.:21:04.

there are different views in terms of Martin, but Republicans have

:21:05.:21:07.

different views of other players than the conflict. I was thinking

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today when Margaret Thatcher died, and she was hated, and Martin

:21:16.:21:23.

McGuinness made the statement then and said, regardless of her views,

:21:24.:21:29.

celebrating her death is inappropriate. He showed leadership

:21:30.:21:34.

even though he had every reason to hate Margaret Thatcher and every

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reason to hate many people involved in this conflict. He put that one

:21:40.:21:43.

side for the better outcomes of this community and is part of Ireland. We

:21:44.:21:53.

are so much about this legacy. It do not want to be bringing anything

:21:54.:22:00.

lower on this day for the family, but there was never an apology from

:22:01.:22:07.

Sinn Fein or from Mr McGuinness about any of the murders that were

:22:08.:22:10.

carried out. There was regretful lost lives. There was never an

:22:11.:22:17.

apology made to anybody who was murdered by the IRA. I remember

:22:18.:22:24.

there being a apology to non-competence. But did there have

:22:25.:22:31.

to be that the true reconciliation to happen, for Martin McGuinness to

:22:32.:22:37.

reach out in a meaningful way? I think there has to be. One of the

:22:38.:22:44.

reasons why we have not yet arrived reconciliation in Northern Ireland

:22:45.:22:46.

is because we have not had the proper acknowledgement is the need

:22:47.:22:50.

to happen, we have not had people coming forward and saying, it was

:22:51.:22:57.

wrong. But if they do not believe it was wrong, they will never say it.

:22:58.:23:02.

So it will be a long time waiting. Let's C. In the day we are in, the

:23:03.:23:10.

points made by the audience are very valid points. One of the regrets I

:23:11.:23:17.

have had is time is marching on and there are many victims I have met

:23:18.:23:21.

and families saying, we would like to know more about the truth, we

:23:22.:23:25.

would like to know and hear from the people who have that knowledge and

:23:26.:23:29.

information, we would like to know why, we would like an explanation as

:23:30.:23:34.

to why we were targeted, why he or she was killed and what was the

:23:35.:23:38.

value of that, why did that happen? Those are real questions. We will

:23:39.:23:44.

move towards the reconciliation we want to see in Northern Ireland.

:23:45.:23:51.

Those answers have to come. I would just say that there are many sides

:23:52.:23:56.

to people and from Martin McGuinness turned his back on the Troubles and

:23:57.:24:01.

entered into politics, he was very compassionate, I called him a

:24:02.:24:07.

peacemaker, in regards to historical institutions of child abuse, he

:24:08.:24:11.

welcomed us up the Stormont many times, even two weeks before he

:24:12.:24:17.

revealed he was very seriously ill. He met us and Protestant and

:24:18.:24:21.

Catholic people. That was something the DUP never did, always refused to

:24:22.:24:28.

meet victims of child abuse, even up until this day. Just to put the

:24:29.:24:38.

record straight, I have met the victims of abuse in my own

:24:39.:24:41.

constituency. I have met those families and victims. We will not

:24:42.:24:47.

dwell on this because it is a small but important part. You may be met

:24:48.:25:02.

one or two. Let's move on. Apology necessary, Brian Feeney? He can't

:25:03.:25:12.

apologise obviously but... There will never be an apology because the

:25:13.:25:16.

people involved in the IRA consider what they were doing was justifiable

:25:17.:25:22.

and correct. If you disagree with that, that is the way it is, though

:25:23.:25:28.

the people do. There has never been an apology from unionists for what

:25:29.:25:33.

they did for 50 years. They never admit they were responsible. David

:25:34.:25:37.

Trimble did say Northern Ireland was a courthouse for X. Is that an

:25:38.:25:49.

apology? -- for Catholics. Out of 50 years of systematic discrimination,

:25:50.:25:55.

that is a tiny thing to say. Refusing to build houses in case it

:25:56.:26:05.

increased the vote in places like Dungannon Deri, what can people at

:26:06.:26:09.

those? There is no apology and nobody asking for it because there

:26:10.:26:16.

is not one forthcoming. Get real. They did it because they thought

:26:17.:26:21.

they were doing something that was justifiable. I do not happen to

:26:22.:26:25.

think it was, the vast majority of people do not think it was, but the

:26:26.:26:30.

people who volunteered and did those things, they will not say, my life

:26:31.:26:35.

was a mistake. Let's leave it there and move on. Nicola Sturgeon once a

:26:36.:26:45.

second referendum for Brexit. Why can't we have a bird of poll --

:26:46.:26:55.

border poll? The Prime Minister has said now is not the time. MSPs were

:26:56.:27:01.

debating in Holyrood today and of course Sinn Fein have been saying,

:27:02.:27:08.

it is time for a voter poll is well. Lesley Riddoch, is the Prime

:27:09.:27:14.

Minister right? I was in the Scottish Parliament today where they

:27:15.:27:18.

started of the debate and the risk of sounding picky, it will actually

:27:19.:27:22.

be the Scottish Parliament needs to decide to enable Nicola Sturgeon to

:27:23.:27:27.

ask for that. These are not semantic things, this is the not the SNP as a

:27:28.:27:34.

party wanting this. This is the Scottish Parliament, democratic

:27:35.:27:36.

institution, deciding to that motion. At the moment, people are

:27:37.:27:44.

kind of a bit gobsmacked at the speed of events in Scotland and that

:27:45.:27:48.

is strange because we have been heading for this car crash since

:27:49.:27:52.

last June. 62% of Scots do not want to leave Europe. All the indications

:27:53.:28:00.

and opinion polls are it is the same percentage now, perhaps even more.

:28:01.:28:04.

There has been an attempt to get differentiated deal for Scotland.

:28:05.:28:08.

That polls suggest most people do not want another referendum. The way

:28:09.:28:15.

the polls have asked is, do you want one this year? Nobody, including

:28:16.:28:21.

Nicola Sturgeon above all, once one this year. 48% of people think that

:28:22.:28:29.

Theresa May's response, where she basically snubbed pretty well all

:28:30.:28:33.

the devolved parliaments, including the Northern Ireland assembly, that

:28:34.:28:38.

that was a mistake. So we are in the situation at the moment where people

:28:39.:28:44.

want to see something better, still can hardly believe that a UK

:28:45.:28:48.

Government will run roughshod over everybody that disagreed with them

:28:49.:28:52.

apart from the City of London, Nissan Gibraltar and the island of

:28:53.:28:59.

Ireland, you would have to hope. So Ireland and Scotland will be very

:29:00.:29:03.

linked because Scottish people are watching to see what solutions you

:29:04.:29:06.

come up here because of the border is not an active issue in the future

:29:07.:29:11.

for Ireland, it would be hard for the UK to say, it will be a complete

:29:12.:29:13.

no-no for an Scotland. Daithi McKay, the Good Friday

:29:14.:29:22.

agreement allows for a border poll but the Secretary of State thinks

:29:23.:29:25.

there will be a different outcome. There is no evidence it would be a

:29:26.:29:30.

different outcome this time round? The Secretary of State would never

:29:31.:29:33.

be biased in his analysis, I'm sure! I think they go on elections and

:29:34.:29:39.

such. There is now a unionist majority within the Assembly so

:29:40.:29:45.

there is doubt over what a referendum outcome might be. I don't

:29:46.:29:49.

actually like the term border poll. You mean a national list majority.

:29:50.:29:58.

Sorry? A nationalist majority. A unionist minority in the assembly.

:29:59.:30:05.

There's a certain grey area that. I don't like the terminology border

:30:06.:30:10.

poll. I think it conjures up images of negativity of what the border has

:30:11.:30:14.

represented many people for many years. I think it should be called

:30:15.:30:18.

an independence referendum, in the same way it was termed in Scotland

:30:19.:30:21.

and people should put forward their vision of what independence on this

:30:22.:30:26.

island would look like. I do certainly get a sense that things

:30:27.:30:33.

are moving. I've spoken to many prominent unionists, especially from

:30:34.:30:37.

the farming community, would actually accept a change in the

:30:38.:30:41.

constitutional status, given what they see down the line, in terms of

:30:42.:30:47.

a potentially hard border, agricultural goods coming down the

:30:48.:30:53.

goods ink as well. The Brexit minister in London who clearly

:30:54.:30:55.

doesn't know what the border will look like. There is a lot of

:30:56.:30:58.

uncertainty out there about people's economic futures. I think we should

:30:59.:31:03.

have an independence referendum. I would like to see a united Ireland

:31:04.:31:07.

and a Republican but I would like to listen to other options. That has

:31:08.:31:11.

been some discussions about a united Ireland, where you would still have

:31:12.:31:19.

an assembly in Belfast. That is worth considering and certainly

:31:20.:31:23.

worth debating, but we need to have the debate. I think Brexit coming

:31:24.:31:29.

over the horizon, there are a lot of concerned communities along the

:31:30.:31:33.

border and I think we need to start listening to those communities and

:31:34.:31:36.

the impact that this is going to have on them. Joan Burton, do you

:31:37.:31:42.

want a border poll? I don't think it is appropriate at

:31:43.:31:47.

the moment, but there's no doubt that Brexit is an extraordinary,

:31:48.:31:51.

historical event and it is going to change things and the island of

:31:52.:31:55.

Ireland. I suspect it's going to change the United Kingdom

:31:56.:31:59.

enormously, because frankly when you look at the trade between Ireland

:32:00.:32:07.

and the UK, it's about 60 billion a year back and forward. We have no

:32:08.:32:13.

idea as yet what's going to happen over the next two years, in terms of

:32:14.:32:19.

a settlement. I've met people from farming backgrounds in Ulster. Their

:32:20.:32:28.

families stay here in north and perhaps using meat factories in the

:32:29.:32:32.

south. The notion that there would be a hard border, leave the politics

:32:33.:32:36.

out of it, just from the point of view of people with businesses and

:32:37.:32:41.

jobs, trying to get on with it, is actually incredibly difficult. I

:32:42.:32:48.

suppose... What you think about this talk of electronic borders. I think

:32:49.:32:57.

you called it the Lycra option. The Prime Minister Enda Kenny and her

:32:58.:33:05.

met a few months ago and they said they wanted it frictionless and

:33:06.:33:10.

seamless. I said it is the Lycra option, it sounds great... In terms

:33:11.:33:14.

of the different members of the House of Commons who have been

:33:15.:33:21.

visiting the Republic, a lot of the people who like Owen are pro-Brexit,

:33:22.:33:26.

are extremely exuberant about it. They don't see any problems, where

:33:27.:33:31.

as the rest of us... We're living in the 44th year of our membership of

:33:32.:33:36.

the European Union. Just let me say this, going back to the previous

:33:37.:33:41.

discussion about Martin McGuinness' death, when Ireland joined the EU, I

:33:42.:33:47.

think Owen needs to be clear about this. When the Republic joined the

:33:48.:33:51.

EU, our relationship with Britain shared for ever and for the

:33:52.:33:55.

positive, because suddenly, sitting around those tables in Brussels, we

:33:56.:34:00.

were there as equals to the United Kingdom. So the obsession, if you

:34:01.:34:06.

like, with England as the old enemy change to being equal countries in a

:34:07.:34:12.

partnership of a union of quite a lot of countries. Are there problems

:34:13.:34:17.

with the European Union? Yes, of course there are. But we are going

:34:18.:34:24.

down a road, and perhaps Owen will enlighten us here tonight... Let's

:34:25.:34:28.

give him the opportunity. In the island of Ireland and the UK,

:34:29.:34:32.

between both countries there is about 400,000 jobs involved in,

:34:33.:34:39.

between the two Islands. You're not sanguine but wildly enthusiastic.

:34:40.:34:43.

How can you reassure Joan Burton and everyone else in this room who is so

:34:44.:34:47.

concerned? First of all, I ask answer the

:34:48.:34:53.

question about border poll. I was conscious as Secretary of State it

:34:54.:34:57.

was important to call for a border poll if the polls showed there was a

:34:58.:35:01.

chance for a result promoting a united Ireland. The last poll I saw

:35:02.:35:07.

was in September, which showed 63% wanting to stay within the United

:35:08.:35:12.

Kingdom and only 22% wanting Northern Ireland to join a united

:35:13.:35:15.

Ireland. A lot has changed since then. So I'd say there is no grounds

:35:16.:35:22.

for calling a border poll. But I entirely agree with everything Joan

:35:23.:35:28.

said. To have a hard border, as is being painted, as this awful, spooky

:35:29.:35:32.

vision would be an absolute nonsense. The Common travel area,

:35:33.:35:36.

through some very difficult times between the Republic and the United

:35:37.:35:40.

Kingdom, has been a huge success. We will get under it... I want to let

:35:41.:35:48.

you continue but Brian Feeney says Common travel area talk is waffle.

:35:49.:35:54.

It's not, it's very real. I will let you elaborate and interject O'Brien.

:35:55.:36:02.

First of all parties on all sides are clear we want to keep the Common

:36:03.:36:05.

travel area. Has been a report from both houses saying they wanted to

:36:06.:36:10.

keep it. When I was here the then Immigration Minister signed an

:36:11.:36:15.

understanding, upgrading the Common travel area around the whole thing,

:36:16.:36:18.

which has been an enormous advantage.

:36:19.:36:22.

On the issue of the border, there are just so many international cases

:36:23.:36:27.

where modern technology shows you can have different regimes, and

:36:28.:36:30.

there is one today on the island of Ireland. There are different tax

:36:31.:36:34.

regimes in Northern Ireland and in Southern Ireland and it's not a

:36:35.:36:39.

problem. Today 10,500 trucks will go across the border from Ontario to

:36:40.:36:47.

Detroit and another 5000 across the border at Buffalo. These are what

:36:48.:36:51.

the Americans happily describe as alien trucks with alien drivers and

:36:52.:36:55.

alien goods and they hardly bothered to change gear. If you look at the

:36:56.:37:00.

Russian Finnish border, that's gone down from two days to about half an

:37:01.:37:03.

hour. If you look at what the Iranians and Pakistanis have done,

:37:04.:37:07.

about as fraught border as anywhere in the world, that has been the

:37:08.:37:12.

trial... That is a hard border with soft bits. These are real hard

:37:13.:37:17.

borders. There is such good now, Joan rightly says Bigfoot between

:37:18.:37:23.

the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, such huge trade,

:37:24.:37:25.

there will be a sensible arrangement. As the Taoiseach and

:37:26.:37:32.

power Prime Minister have said, and all doable with modern technology.

:37:33.:37:35.

And it happens every day. The TR I system has been going since the

:37:36.:37:41.

1950s. Something like 3 million... Tens of thousands of border

:37:42.:37:45.

movements per day. There one and a half million tonnes of goods that go

:37:46.:37:50.

on trucks to the Republic of Ireland and across again to the United

:37:51.:37:55.

Kingdom's roads and nobody notices, nobody knows about and it happens.

:37:56.:37:58.

Let's just enjoy technology and work towards seamless border. Absolutely

:37:59.:38:02.

right. The gentleman in the front row? Do you think talk of a border

:38:03.:38:09.

poll or the attitude of the Scottish Nationalists as a distraction? And

:38:10.:38:15.

the people who were opposed to Brexit, they are in denial. That

:38:16.:38:21.

reality is the United Kingdom voted to come out. All energy should be

:38:22.:38:25.

focused on getting the best possible deal. Do you agree? And the

:38:26.:38:32.

gentleman in a checked shirt? I think personally, I was listening

:38:33.:38:37.

to Daithi McKay, and he talked about uncertainty. To be honest I think

:38:38.:38:42.

Sinn Fein and the SNP are trying to capitalise on feelings of

:38:43.:38:45.

uncertainty at the moment by calling for these polls. I would suggest

:38:46.:38:50.

wisdom dictates and we should wait to see what the agreement looks like

:38:51.:38:53.

we can have a poll in the future. And the gentleman in the red tie? I

:38:54.:38:58.

work and lived in Derry. In the moment in the north-west we've had

:38:59.:39:01.

lots of issues in relation to infrastructure. The last thing we

:39:02.:39:05.

need is a physical barrier on the border stopping trade coming in. It

:39:06.:39:09.

would be a disaster for our economy. The constituency was the second

:39:10.:39:13.

highest of any council district in the British Isles to vote to remain

:39:14.:39:20.

in. You have to remember Northern Ireland was against it and it's

:39:21.:39:24.

going to be an absolute disaster. We are concerned at the moment, the

:39:25.:39:28.

government is concerned with storm and but we should be concerned with

:39:29.:39:33.

Brexit. Brian Feeney, have you been reassure? By the Secretary of State?

:39:34.:39:37.

The British government has no policy on what to do with the border.

:39:38.:39:43.

Furthermore, it's not up to them to decide. Look, it's not up to them to

:39:44.:39:47.

decide. There are 27 other countries who will sit round the table and

:39:48.:39:52.

tell the British what they agree. All the talk... But one of them,

:39:53.:39:57.

Ireland, is going to be going in, saying we pretty much want what

:39:58.:39:59.

Northern Ireland once. They will try to have... The phrase

:40:00.:40:07.

Taoiseach and Theresa May used was as seamless border as possible, not

:40:08.:40:12.

seamless. They won't have one. There are hundreds of millions of litres

:40:13.:40:17.

of milk transferred north and south every day, to make yoghurt.

:40:18.:40:20.

Backwards and forwards. You are going to have two different systems

:40:21.:40:29.

of tax, or tariffs outside the single market and inside. We are

:40:30.:40:34.

going to be outside the customs union. There's no point shaking your

:40:35.:40:37.

head. He says there already are different tax regimes. I'm talking

:40:38.:40:45.

about tariffs. Yes. The North will be outside the single market. So far

:40:46.:40:54.

what seems to come from most pro-Brexit Tories is your leaving

:40:55.:40:59.

the single market and you're also probably leaving the customs union,

:41:00.:41:04.

maybe with some reservations around financial services and a couple of

:41:05.:41:07.

other things. But take the situation of the Republic of Ireland and

:41:08.:41:11.

Northern Ireland and Scotland, and indeed Wales as well. Agriculture

:41:12.:41:17.

and agricultural exports are of tremendous importance, both in terms

:41:18.:41:24.

of an farm and jobs in processing. If that is going to revert, if you

:41:25.:41:29.

are leaving the customs union, as is being suggested, that means that at

:41:30.:41:34.

the very worst case scenario, and I hope it won't come to this, you're

:41:35.:41:41.

going to have two comply with World Trade Organisation rules. In that

:41:42.:41:46.

case the tariffs or the tax is charged on agricultural imports into

:41:47.:41:50.

another country... This is getting a little complex for the time we have.

:41:51.:41:54.

Jeffrey Donaldson, you will be behind Owen Paterson all the way on

:41:55.:41:57.

this of course about what to say to these concerns?

:41:58.:42:02.

I made unionists but sometimes you have to pinch yourself when the

:42:03.:42:07.

people talking up the border are the Nationalists not the Unionists. I

:42:08.:42:09.

find it difficult to square an argument... We don't want one. Why

:42:10.:42:16.

do you talk it up all the time then question what you are obsessed with

:42:17.:42:18.

the border. I forgot about the border years ago. Are we supposed to

:42:19.:42:23.

believe that? In terms of nationalism... You heard

:42:24.:42:27.

it first on Spotlight Special! LAUGHTER

:42:28.:42:33.

I voted for independence last June when I hear Nationalists who want

:42:34.:42:36.

all this power for themselves, wanting to give the power away to

:42:37.:42:41.

Brussels, then what is nationalism about? What does it stand for in the

:42:42.:42:45.

modern Europe when Nationalists say we want to give all the power away

:42:46.:42:50.

to these unelected people in Brussels? I'm Unionists, I believe

:42:51.:42:53.

in the United Kingdom, and that's where we are going to remain.

:42:54.:42:57.

APPLAUSE Go-ahead, sir.

:42:58.:43:01.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put the border in the Irish Sea and have

:43:02.:43:07.

oil of Ireland together? That was the suggestion of Mervyn King, the

:43:08.:43:10.

former governor of the Bank of England will stop we can discuss

:43:11.:43:14.

that. Gentleman in the white shirt? Just to clear up your point on the

:43:15.:43:18.

border and why we are so obsessed with it. As Brian Feeney said

:43:19.:43:23.

earlier, Irish people got into these negotiations because we wanted

:43:24.:43:25.

self-determination. We're now getting dragged out against our

:43:26.:43:36.

determination. Let me finish. Our concerns with the border, if I had

:43:37.:43:39.

border goes back up it could wreck the peace process from certain

:43:40.:43:43.

people's views. From my generation, people who don't want to go back to

:43:44.:43:47.

that, we don't want to see trouble starting again. Let's unpack that

:43:48.:43:51.

statement for a moment, unpack the statement we've just heard. They had

:43:52.:43:54.

border could threaten the peace process. In other words, the guns

:43:55.:43:59.

and bombs will come out again because certain people can't access

:44:00.:44:02.

that we have a democratic vote and the vote didn't go the way they

:44:03.:44:10.

wanted. I don't believe in that, I believe in democracy. If the

:44:11.:44:14.

decision in 1998, if there was a referendum here... I voted against

:44:15.:44:19.

and lost the vote and I accepted the Democratic outcome. That's what

:44:20.:44:23.

democracy means. When you have a vote, the United Kingdom vote on the

:44:24.:44:27.

boat doesn't go the way you want it, please don't threaten us with guns

:44:28.:44:30.

and bombs because you don't like the democratic outcome. Scotland also

:44:31.:44:38.

voted to remain, 62-38. How do you address that problem, that question

:44:39.:44:41.

of nationalism? We talk about what we could expect

:44:42.:45:03.

for Brexit. As far as tariffs are concerned, what is the script with

:45:04.:45:09.

the Tory party? At the moment, we're being told in Scotland that the

:45:10.:45:12.

powers over agriculture and fisheries will not come back to the

:45:13.:45:17.

Scottish Parliament because there might be different harassed in

:45:18.:45:20.

different parts of Britain. It seems like there is one set of abilities

:45:21.:45:25.

to seek board is not been proportioned when it is Ireland,

:45:26.:45:29.

now, Brexit or difficult, and when it comes to the rest of the UK, it

:45:30.:45:38.

is just no can do, so which is it? We want reciprocal free trade with

:45:39.:45:50.

everybody. I give going to give us agriculture and fisheries? Large

:45:51.:45:56.

elements of it. It is a completely devolved authority. I did this when

:45:57.:46:06.

I was dean Defra. The UK and before every council meeting, we had a

:46:07.:46:10.

meeting with devolved ministers, and the SNP minister always turned up

:46:11.:46:13.

with a long list of requirements for me to get through, hoping I would

:46:14.:46:17.

fail, but am pretty well everything, even on last night of 2am when we

:46:18.:46:24.

had negotiations with Chancellor Merkel and her chancellery, I was

:46:25.:46:28.

trying to get something for Scotland. It is the future I was

:46:29.:46:32.

asking you about. There has to be one negotiating country representing

:46:33.:46:38.

all international bodies, and we will get our full seat back with

:46:39.:46:41.

Brexit in our ability to negotiate and vote on all world bodies. That

:46:42.:46:52.

has to be the UK. You cannot answer yes or no, can you? We want

:46:53.:47:00.

reciprocal free trade. There is a huge deficit. This is very

:47:01.:47:16.

important. We also must move on. Owen Paterson says that the food

:47:17.:47:21.

coming across, bottle, into America is alien trade and alien food. The

:47:22.:47:30.

truth is, I'll write in the UK want to trade with each other but as you

:47:31.:47:35.

rightly said it is 27 member states will make that decision, but it is

:47:36.:47:42.

not just coming from the Republic of Ireland into the UK that is the

:47:43.:47:46.

issue here. There are other countries in the EU that export to

:47:47.:47:52.

the UK. The United Kingdom is only 60% self sufficient and they are

:47:53.:47:56.

dependent on EU states and another Owen Paterson says he wants free

:47:57.:48:00.

trade with everyone, he's making a big mistake because I do not think

:48:01.:48:03.

the 27 member states will allow that. I will have to move you one.

:48:04.:48:12.

Thank you, sir. We have just run out of time on that one. If the

:48:13.:48:22.

power-sharing negotiations fail, is there any alternative to either

:48:23.:48:27.

direct or another election? We note that this is the last week. Time

:48:28.:48:34.

runs out next Monday at 4:30pm. But the secretary once again it will

:48:35.:48:38.

organise by the end of this week so parties have time to go back to the

:48:39.:48:43.

members and discuss it. Is he a super optimist? Who knows? I would

:48:44.:48:50.

imagine that with all the difficulty stacking up for the Conservatives,

:48:51.:48:55.

the last thing they want in addition to the Scottish Nationalist threat

:48:56.:49:01.

is anything to do with trying to run Northern Ireland directly from

:49:02.:49:03.

London. That has got to be the last thing that this government wants.

:49:04.:49:10.

Bescot be huge pressure to try to encourage some sort of weight to

:49:11.:49:14.

keep the show on the road. I would have thought that from the point of

:49:15.:49:19.

view of a lot of Scottish people, people are really hoping that

:49:20.:49:21.

something can be pulled together here. We are right at the quick of

:49:22.:49:29.

the difficulties now. And it does look like has come to one of these

:49:30.:49:33.

points again, which everyone feared at the beginning would be total

:49:34.:49:39.

roadblocks. And yet, up until now, through force of character,

:49:40.:49:44.

perseverance, all sorts of compromise, you have managed to

:49:45.:49:47.

overcome that, and I'm sure a lot of people are watching and hoping that

:49:48.:49:51.

somehow you do not get direct rule back in Northern Ireland because

:49:52.:49:55.

that is a backward and retrograde direction which in Ireland at least

:49:56.:50:01.

nobody wants. It is the last of three weeks of negotiations and we

:50:02.:50:05.

have not even had a plenary session yet. It will not happen. There will

:50:06.:50:12.

not be a settlement on Monday. The basic position is this assumption is

:50:13.:50:19.

that if Arlene Foster were to stand aside... If she did, it does not

:50:20.:50:26.

follow the would be an executive because there is a whole list of

:50:27.:50:33.

other requirements. You listen to what Sinn Fein say and believe the

:50:34.:50:37.

or you don't. When Gerry Adams says there will be no return to the

:50:38.:50:41.

status quo and Michelle O'Neill says that there will have to be a

:50:42.:50:47.

complete change, not business as usual, that means that they have a

:50:48.:50:52.

list of demands which have nothing to do with forming an executive. So

:50:53.:50:56.

there will not be an executive formed next week. So an election or

:50:57.:51:02.

direct rule? The Secretary of State is required to call an election if

:51:03.:51:07.

there is nothing after three weeks. But there is a cork is from ten

:51:08.:51:14.

years ago or so when the Secretary of State was not calling an

:51:15.:51:17.

election, there was a zombie assembly. How dare you! The

:51:18.:51:23.

Secretary of State must call an election was the decision but in a

:51:24.:51:28.

reasonable period. Obviously, the Secretary of State could not say, we

:51:29.:51:31.

will have an election in the next three weeks because of Easter. No

:51:32.:51:37.

court will step in and told the Secretary of State, you must have an

:51:38.:51:42.

election on the 27th of June because the court would decide they would

:51:43.:51:46.

not interfere in politics. So a reasonable period could last a long

:51:47.:51:51.

time. I know certainly the British government does not want to have

:51:52.:51:57.

direct rule and no parties want to go back to direct rule. Jeffrey

:51:58.:52:01.

Donaldson, you have been making encouraging noises in the last

:52:02.:52:06.

couple of weeks. Are you as convinced as Brian Feeney that

:52:07.:52:10.

nothing will happen? I do not share his pessimism but I do recognise

:52:11.:52:16.

that it would be difficult to achieve this in the next few days,

:52:17.:52:21.

especially with the events of today. But I do believe that what we have

:52:22.:52:29.

in front of us, the hill to climb in front of us, is not any higher than

:52:30.:52:32.

the mountains we have climbed already in Northern Ireland. And we

:52:33.:52:37.

have come a long way. We are at Stormont, we are working daily,

:52:38.:52:45.

there have been plenty of bilateral discussions, hard-nosed discussions

:52:46.:52:47.

about the issues that need to be resolved, and I believe we have made

:52:48.:52:52.

some progress on those issues. Like the Irish language? Give us a clue.

:52:53.:53:00.

It remains to be seen whether we will get agreement on and I will not

:53:01.:53:04.

compromise the integrity of the process but if there is a will,

:53:05.:53:11.

there is a way. I am convinced that if the people in Northern Ireland

:53:12.:53:15.

want to see Stormont up and running, they want to see parties delivering

:53:16.:53:19.

government, and some of the parties who let the government after the

:53:20.:53:22.

elections last year are now indicating to us that they want to

:53:23.:53:26.

be back in government, and I think that is a positive development, it

:53:27.:53:30.

is an indication to what we been hearing is, we do not want to go to

:53:31.:53:36.

direct rule. Direct rule or an election or compromise? I think

:53:37.:53:46.

everybody wants to see the compromise being made. One of the

:53:47.:53:50.

biggest problems is the Secretary of State, and he would not be the first

:53:51.:53:57.

been that position. In that action they believe him to be a player, not

:53:58.:54:02.

the referee. He made an extraordinary statement in February

:54:03.:54:07.

in regards to cases from the past involving British soldiers, and to

:54:08.:54:12.

do that. That was when he said there was a disproportionate emphasis...

:54:13.:54:21.

And to undermine legal process is was an extraordinary thing to do.

:54:22.:54:28.

Then he expects to pull up a chair and chaired talks between all the

:54:29.:54:33.

parties. But ultimately, you have to get on with the DUP, don't you? He

:54:34.:54:39.

is a key player because one of the issues is dealing with the past and

:54:40.:54:43.

issues that have hung around since the conflict. All those things need

:54:44.:54:48.

to be dealt with. There can be no return to direct rule. Republicans

:54:49.:54:56.

did come out in major numbers to send a clear message that they

:54:57.:54:59.

needed to be taken more seriously in the future because we have a

:55:00.:55:03.

unionist minority here in the north and it cannot be the case that we

:55:04.:55:08.

return to a direct rule situation. If there is to be a situation where

:55:09.:55:15.

there is no agreement, there has to be some government involvement in

:55:16.:55:20.

the running of the North. Joan Burton? Get in the! All I can say is

:55:21.:55:31.

that anyone who sees the benefit of the Belfast agreement to people

:55:32.:55:33.

right across the community in Northern Ireland has to say that no

:55:34.:55:38.

one wants to see a return to direct rule. When you think of all those

:55:39.:55:42.

young people who have grown up, free to go out at night, free to go where

:55:43.:55:47.

ever they want. How would direct rule change that? I think it would

:55:48.:55:55.

be deeply unsettling and unacceptable in particular to the

:55:56.:56:02.

nationalist community at a time during Brexit. I know Jeffrey has a

:56:03.:56:05.

case that Brexit will be wonderful but I think Brexit is challenging.

:56:06.:56:18.

To actually forego an administration working in the north of Ireland to

:56:19.:56:22.

do its best for the North of Ireland, to do its best for the

:56:23.:56:27.

island of Ireland, I genuinely think there needs to be a stream within

:56:28.:56:33.

that Brexit process which actually addresses the island of Ireland and

:56:34.:56:38.

specifically the issue of Northern Ireland. We kind of mood of the

:56:39.:56:43.

question a little bit. I am saying I do not want to see direct rule, I

:56:44.:56:47.

think that would be a disaster. What about an election? That is an

:56:48.:56:52.

enormous insult to all those people who went out and voted and say, you

:56:53.:56:59.

have to get out then do it again in another few weeks. Provisions exist

:57:00.:57:03.

within structures to have an extension. The events of the next

:57:04.:57:07.

few days will mean that various parties negotiations will be turned

:57:08.:57:14.

up. People need an extra couple of weeks, perhaps President Trump might

:57:15.:57:20.

send an envoy to deliver his particular insights, it has happened

:57:21.:57:25.

before. The EU played a role, the Americans played a role, parties

:57:26.:57:31.

themselves play the role, we will elbow. Let me bring in a couple of

:57:32.:57:43.

people. We come to this decision again whenever the national start

:57:44.:57:49.

talking again about problems, we talk about, going back to the old

:57:50.:57:55.

days, I do not know why it is that whenever nationalists and

:57:56.:57:57.

republicans stop feeling they are under some kind of pressure, and

:57:58.:58:03.

that we should do something above the normal conversation, they always

:58:04.:58:07.

revert back to this, we might go back to the old days. Why is that? I

:58:08.:58:14.

really hope that political talks go well but please can somebody make

:58:15.:58:19.

decisions about our budget? It is really important because people need

:58:20.:58:27.

to know what is happening. It is time to vote for the Alliance Party

:58:28.:58:32.

because if you vote for Michelle all Arlene, you will get Theresa May.

:58:33.:58:38.

Owen Paterson, does Theresa May want direct rule at this particular

:58:39.:58:46.

juncture in history? Absolutely not. There is absolutely nobody I know in

:58:47.:58:50.

Parliament now wants to see direct rule. I was in the tearoom yesterday

:58:51.:58:55.

and people were talking about it, in complete agreement... And perhaps

:58:56.:58:58.

today something good will come out of it. All those news programmes on

:58:59.:59:03.

the reruns and those terrible films being shown are just a reminder for

:59:04.:59:08.

everyone of what Northern Ireland has been through and how far it is,,

:59:09.:59:14.

and it's got there with some hideously difficult decisions being

:59:15.:59:16.

made by people like John Major earlier on and followed on by Tony

:59:17.:59:22.

Blair. You had bipartisan agreement in Westminster and in Dublin and

:59:23.:59:27.

bipartisan agreement in the United States. So there is massive support

:59:28.:59:33.

for these institutions. There is honestly nobody in the tearoom who

:59:34.:59:38.

wants direct rule at all. So I think there's a few days left. I thought

:59:39.:59:41.

it was four o'clock on Monday afternoon... That's what I said. You

:59:42.:59:48.

said 4:30pm. I beg your pardon, I'm sorry! The lady at the back is

:59:49.:59:56.

absolutely spot on. Somebody has got to set a budget. Bills have got to

:59:57.:00:01.

be paid. I keep in touch with Northern Ireland and I talk to

:00:02.:00:04.

people here quite a lot and see if I can help in some ways. I can tell

:00:05.:00:09.

you, there is absolute exasperation with the political class at the

:00:10.:00:13.

moment, in not getting together and working together... What is the

:00:14.:00:23.

problem? It's a local politicians. It's not for some Westminster

:00:24.:00:26.

politician to swan in, it's for the local politicians to sit down. There

:00:27.:00:32.

have been nine years of effort and misery and hard work on three major

:00:33.:00:37.

international governments to get things up and running and now there

:00:38.:00:42.

are days left in which to get the working -- them working again. I

:00:43.:00:46.

just hope everyone will go back home later, there will be more news

:00:47.:00:50.

programmes tonight... Just remember what Northern Ireland has been

:00:51.:00:54.

through and the support internationally to get Northern

:00:55.:00:56.

Ireland have these institutions. They need to be up and running by

:00:57.:01:00.

four o'clock, possibly for 30 PM, in the afternoon. The lady at the front

:01:01.:01:05.

row there. I agree that direct rule is a

:01:06.:01:12.

retrograde step. But, for example, if we had direct rule for a short

:01:13.:01:17.

period, somebody might finally ring about efficiency in areas like

:01:18.:01:22.

health, where we have had successive reports about closing hospitals and

:01:23.:01:29.

nobody, including the latest minister Michele O'Neil has done

:01:30.:01:33.

anything about it. Thank you, the gentleman just behind you?

:01:34.:01:39.

To avoid situations like the one we are in, with the possibility of

:01:40.:01:43.

eight cross community coalition in the fume future help? -- in the

:01:44.:01:54.

future help? I think the majority of people do not want direct rule but

:01:55.:01:57.

whenever they come to a settlement this time, it has to be a definitive

:01:58.:02:01.

settlement. It can't be yet another answer to yet another crisis.

:02:02.:02:05.

Charities and community groups across the North are having to let

:02:06.:02:08.

people go. Every year it seems to be the same. A budget crisis, nothing

:02:09.:02:13.

can be agreed. This solution has to be definitive. I think it has to

:02:14.:02:17.

address issues that were agreed in the past, like an Irish language and

:02:18.:02:23.

Bill of Rights. Everyone the table nodding in agreement. We will leave

:02:24.:02:27.

the last word on this occasion with our audience. Thank you. Thank you

:02:28.:02:32.

to our panel, thank you to our studio audience who have been most

:02:33.:02:35.

enthusiastic and you are home for watching. You can continue to debate

:02:36.:02:39.

online using the hashtag spotlight NIA. Until next time, a very good

:02:40.:02:49.

night. -- using #SpotlightNI.

:02:50.:02:53.

A studio audience put questions to opinion-formers. Panellists are former secretary of state Owen Paterson, former tanaiste Joan Burton, former Sinn Fein MLA Daithi McKay, DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson and commentators Brian Feeney and Lesley Riddoch. Noel Thompson presents.


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