Martin McGuinness: Armalite to Ballot Box Spotlight


Martin McGuinness: Armalite to Ballot Box

Jim Fitzpatrick charts the journey of Martin McGuinness from man of war to man of peace, and examines the future of Sinn Fein without him.


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It's just five days since Martin McGuinness's funeral provided

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this moment of accord.

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But the coming together did not last.

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That handshake represented a reaching out, but the inclusivity

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that that represents was not then carried forward into the talks.

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The DUP didn't approach it with the right attitude.

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They weren't prepared to bring

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forward mechanisms and deal with the issues.

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The talks have collapsed. There is no government.

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Stormont once again is in crisis.

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It is extremely disappointing that an Executive

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has not been formed in Northern Ireland today.

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As the Prime Minister triggers Brexit, the union is on her mind.

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When this great union of nations, England, Scotland, Wales and

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Northern Ireland, sets its mind on something and works together

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with determination, we are an unstoppable force.

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But have nationalists' electoral gains put the union on the line?

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It also clearly was a vote for Irish unity.

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While one key constant of the devolved era is gone.

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..was I physically able or capable of fighting an intensive

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five, six-week election in the current state that I'm in?

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And the answer to that was no.

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Even though it...

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breaks my heart.

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It's more than 20 years since Martin McGuinness led his Sinn Fein

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team into this building for the first official talks with the

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British government.

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From that point he was focused on rebuilding political institutions.

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Over the last decade he was key to sustaining government at Stormont.

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He built it up, but he also tore it down.

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So what's next now that he's gone?

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It wasn't a state funeral but it looked a bit like one.

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Right down to the flag-covered coffin allowed into the church.

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A special exception made for Martin McGuinness.

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Vast crowds of people came from the Bogside and far beyond.

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Political leaders of all shades. Prime ministers past and present.

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Presidents. And of course Bill Clinton stole the show.

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They asked me to speak for three minutes.

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He could do this in 30 seconds. I can just hear him now.

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"Here's my eulogy. I fought, I made peace, I made politics."

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He earned the right to ask us

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to honour his legacy by our living.

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To finish the work that is there to be done.

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But what is that legacy?

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Martin McGuinness was not a terrorist.

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CHEERING

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Martin McGuinness was a freedom fighter.

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CHEERING

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There was no greater way to insult my community,

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to devalue them and to debase them,

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by saying that a man was a freedom fighter who'd done

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all that Martin McGuinness had done in his early years.

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The paradox of Martin McGuinness the peacemaker is that his career

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began in violence.

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He first emerged in the early 1970s as a spokesperson for what was

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a new, violent organisation.

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None of our intelligence units from the Waterside...

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The Provisional IRA.

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A group that rapidly left its mark on Derry.

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EXPLOSION

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EXPLOSION

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And a group that also in this city came under the control of

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Martin McGuinness.

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Now, as the officer commanding the Derry part of the IRA

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Provisional operation, can you say whether the bombing is likely

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to stop in the near future in response to any public demand?

3:21:033:21:07

Well, er, we will always take into considerations the feelings

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of the people of Derry and these feelings will be passed on to

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our GHQ in Dublin, you know.

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Even at the age of 21,

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Martin McGuinness already stood out as a charismatic leader.

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He had a kind of angelic-looking face, innocent-looking face,

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and yet could speak with this Derry accent and, er...

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that was a mixture of doggedness and determination.

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Denis Bradley was a young priest in Londonderry at the time

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McGuinness's IRA was taking over.

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By the time internment happened in 1971,

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the argument against violence was being lost.

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Young people who had never previously taken part in riot situations

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because they were dubious about the morality of the whole thing

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immediately took part in it.

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All moderate argument has gone out the window.

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Bloody Sunday killed any hope of moderation returning.

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McGuinness was found to have been almost certainly carrying

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a gun that day but played no direct role in the events that led

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to the Parachute Regiment killing 13 people.

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In the aftermath, in Republican eyes,

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his IRA unit was cast as defenders of Catholics in the city.

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In the Bogside and across other parts of this city,

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Martin McGuinness was an established Republican hero and recognised IRA

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leader while he was still younger than many university students.

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A reputation like that couldn't be contained.

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He was the incarnation of all that was evil.

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He was the bogeyman of unionism.

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He was there to be the leader of the organisation that was trying

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to drive the Brits out of Ulster, and of course,

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with being a British citizen living in Northern Ireland and as

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this being British territory, that was a threat to our very

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existence, and he was the personification of that threat.

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But as far back as 1972 the Brits wanted to talk to

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this 22-year-old bogeyman.

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His rise really began after internment and Bloody Sunday,

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and he became such a senior figure in Derry that he was recognised

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as an important strategist as well as everything else.

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He was brought over to London for talks with the British government

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about a ceasefire in the summer of 1972,

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along with Gerry Adams and the chief of staff, Sean Mac Stiofain,

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and a couple of others.

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Those talks took place in the summer of 1972,

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during the worst period of the Troubles.

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Young Martin McGuinness went from the wreckage of Derry to

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a posh house in Chelsea to meet a member of the British government,

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Secretary of State Willie Whitelaw.

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Absolute crazy stuff.

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Crazy stuff that you thought that you could pull

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a youngster like Martin McGuinness and put him on

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a plane and put him over into Cheyne Walk, into the grandees.

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And the British hardly even knew where Derry was,

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never mind, you know... "Oh, Martin McGuinness, well, who..."

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You know, we'll bring these guys over and we'll have

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a wee chat with them in a nice plush house along the banks of the Thames?

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Crazy stuff. But it was part of the time. It was where we were at.

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I think Martin McGuinness learned the value of more subtle

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negotiation, because those 1972 talks

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were simply outright brinkmanship demands,

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naive demands from the IRA leadership,

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simply wanting a united Ireland or bust, and wanting it very quickly.

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The IRA had three uncompromising demands -

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all-Ireland self-determination,

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British withdrawal by 1975 and the release of prisoners.

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The Provisional IRA will not stop the fight until the three

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demands that we have put to Mr Whitelaw are met.

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But the man who would one day become Sinn Fein's chief negotiator

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had much to learn.

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They were so politically naive that they had an idea that

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a man was going to walk in some day with

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a letter from the Prime Minister of Britain saying, "I'm going to

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"withdraw my troops and my people and my power out of Ireland."

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EXPLOSION

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Not surprisingly, the British didn't meet the demands.

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The talking didn't last long.

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EXPLOSION

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McGuinness went back to what he knew in the IRA.

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Now a known senior IRA figure, he spent a lot of time on the run.

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-NEWSREEL:

-McGuinness, still disguised with dyed hair and

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a recently grown moustache,

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were driven off to the Mountjoy Prison to shouts of

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"Up the Provos" from their supporters.

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The running was interrupted in 1973 when he was arrested

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in the Republic with ammunition and explosives and sent to jail.

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There were 30 policemen in the little courtroom

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during the brief hearing.

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McGuinness refused to accept the jurisdiction of the court.

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He said, "My loyalties lie with the 32-county state.

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"That's a united Ireland state."

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And he added, "This is a framed-up charge."

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Martin McGuinness later claimed this was the period when he left the IRA.

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Few people believed him.

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I don't think he ever left the IRA.

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The IRA still exists.

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And he certainly didn't leave it in 1974.

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After 1974, he really... It's arguable that his IRA career

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was only getting off the ground.

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He was a commander in the Provisional IRA, said so,

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boasted about it.

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The fact that he was the commander of the Provisionals,

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he said number two in command, it was always our belief,

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it was always our position that he was in the Army Council

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and the leading member in the Army Council of Provos,

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so death was his business, murder was his game.

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The key event in the Republican movement

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was the creation of Northern Command in 1976.

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McGuinness became the first commander of Northern Command,

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and that meant, essentially,

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that McGuinness and Adams took over the military campaign.

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So the northerners were running it.

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Under this strengthened northern leadership,

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the long war had begun.

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And it was ruthless in its prosecution.

3:27:493:27:52

The new leadership set down a blueprint

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that was followed for the next two decades -

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a grinding campaign of isolated attacks,

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punctuated by what Republicans called "spectaculars",

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such as when the IRA took revenge on the Parachute Regiment

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for Bloody Sunday and reached inside the Royal Family in a single day.

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-NEWS REPORT:

-At 11.30 this morning,

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Lord Mountbatten's family had set off from the jetty.

3:28:173:28:20

16 minutes later, it happened.

3:28:203:28:23

We just heard a very loud bang

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and we were informed that Lord Mountbatten's boat had exploded.

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That was planned by the IRA shortly after Martin McGuinness took over

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as chief of staff of the IRA in 1978. He had sanctioned it.

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The IRA also struck at Warrenpoint,

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killing 18 members of the Parachute Regiment.

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Police who have been to the scene

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say they have never seen such carnage

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in all the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

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This would have been a very complex plan,

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for two operations to take place on the same day.

3:28:573:29:01

The key thing was the Parachute Regiment,

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because of what they had done in Derry in 1972.

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The graffiti went up immediately,

3:29:083:29:10

that night - "13 dead but not forgotten.

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"We got 18 and Mountbatten."

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The devastating double attack was a mark

3:29:153:29:18

of the IRA's new lethal capacity

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under Martin McGuinness's leadership.

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It made Martin McGuinness one of Northern Ireland's most wanted men.

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One of those hunting him was a young Catholic RUC officer

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named Peter Sheridan.

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For some police officers he was a hate figure,

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for some police officers he an object of fear,

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and for many of us, he was treated with deep suspicion.

3:29:423:29:46

When I came to Derry first of all in '78,

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he would have been the number one person

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that people would have been on the lookout for in the police.

3:29:513:29:54

As a young sergeant in Londonderry,

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Peter Sheridan was trying to introduce community policing.

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Two or three years ago, people wouldn't have expected to see

3:30:003:30:02

police out walking on the street again.

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It's a gradual improvement that we have to make.

3:30:053:30:07

We can't just decide overnight

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that we're going to go out today and two policemen

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are going to walk about again, like they did in the early '60s.

3:30:113:30:14

Meanwhile, the IRA was trying to kill him.

3:30:143:30:17

You must have lived under constant threat yourself?

3:30:173:30:21

Yes, I did. Almost every day in the city there was some incident.

3:30:213:30:25

For example, at Magee College,

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I was the first on the scene of the shooting of a prison lecturer.

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The IRA shot lecturer Leslie Jarvis because he taught in prison,

3:30:313:30:36

but they also left a booby-trap for police responding to the attack.

3:30:363:30:40

I arrived at this car, where he was shot dead.

3:30:433:30:46

I got into the car and felt his pulse, and he was dead.

3:30:463:30:49

I remembered seeing his briefcase in the back of the car.

3:30:493:30:52

So I cordoned off the area and called the detectives,

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walked over to detectives to explain the set-up.

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I literally walked away and the bomb exploded,

3:30:583:31:01

which was his briefcase had been replaced.

3:31:013:31:03

The two officers were killed,

3:31:053:31:07

and I was literally 20 feet from them.

3:31:073:31:10

A biography of Martin McGuinness later claimed

3:31:103:31:12

he watched the attack unfold.

3:31:123:31:15

They wanted to kill most police officers,

3:31:153:31:17

but if you were Catholic in the police, you were a bigger target.

3:31:173:31:21

If you were senior, you were a bigger target.

3:31:213:31:23

The former Assistant Chief Constable now heads

3:31:233:31:26

Northern Ireland's leading reconciliation charity,

3:31:263:31:29

and worked closely with Martin McGuinness, the politician,

3:31:293:31:32

and grew to like him...

3:31:323:31:34

..despite the fact Martin McGuinness had previously wanted him dead.

3:31:373:31:41

Given that the IRA tried to kill you,

3:31:443:31:46

and given that Martin McGuinness was such a senior figure in the IRA

3:31:463:31:49

at that time, when you join the dots,

3:31:493:31:51

it effectively means that Martin McGuinness tried to kill you.

3:31:513:31:54

Yeah. And I have had probably that not dissimilar conversation

3:31:543:31:59

with him and many others in the Republican movement.

3:31:593:32:02

But Martin McGuinness wasn't just an IRA leader.

3:32:023:32:06

He was also emerging as an elected politician.

3:32:063:32:09

CROWD CHANTS

3:32:093:32:11

With your successes in today's elections,

3:32:153:32:18

is this now not the time to give up the Armalite?

3:32:183:32:20

We have always said that we believe that we can only achieve

3:32:203:32:23

what we are attempting to establish in Ireland,

3:32:233:32:25

a democratic socialist republic,

3:32:253:32:27

through the use of political action and military force.

3:32:273:32:30

That is the Republican position.

3:32:303:32:31

We don't believe that winning elections

3:32:313:32:34

and winning any amount of votes will bring freedom in Ireland.

3:32:343:32:36

At the end of the day,

3:32:363:32:38

it will be the cutting edge of the IRA which will bring freedom.

3:32:383:32:40

Always with Martin McGuinness,

3:32:403:32:42

the military went hand in hand with the political.

3:32:423:32:45

When he was being carried down the Guildhall steps

3:32:493:32:52

the first time he was elected, if you look at the fuss,

3:32:523:32:56

the kind of shock-horror,

3:32:563:32:58

I think he came to realise that the political path

3:32:583:33:00

had as much to offer as the armed path.

3:33:003:33:03

They were determined to say to people,

3:33:053:33:07

"Look, our vote means people support the armed struggle."

3:33:073:33:11

But McGuinness at that stage thought, "If we don't keep going,

3:33:113:33:14

"then we're not going to get anywhere."

3:33:143:33:17

The armed struggle is what gives the Republican movement its weight,

3:33:173:33:21

or, as he said, it's cutting edge.

3:33:213:33:23

There was another key element to what the IRA called its war.

3:33:233:33:27

Propaganda.

3:33:273:33:29

Once again, Martin McGuinness was at the forefront.

3:33:293:33:33

I believe the people will vote for me

3:33:343:33:37

because I have been active, certainly,

3:33:373:33:40

on the Republican side

3:33:403:33:42

against the British.

3:33:423:33:43

I have been totally opposed to their presence

3:33:433:33:45

in my country.

3:33:453:33:47

And I certainly believe and support the aims of the IRA

3:33:473:33:51

in that Ireland can only be freed, that peace can only come,

3:33:513:33:55

and this is what is important.

3:33:553:33:57

At the end of the day, I am a man of peace.

3:33:573:34:00

At other times, he denied his involvement in the IRA.

3:34:003:34:03

Whoever said that I was a member of the IRA?

3:34:033:34:07

Are you saying that I'm a member of the IRA?

3:34:073:34:09

The definitive history of the IRA names you

3:34:093:34:11

as the OC of the Derry Brigade.

3:34:113:34:13

Well, I have never said that I was in the IRA.

3:34:133:34:15

Are you denying that you ran the IRA in Free Derry?

3:34:153:34:19

I am not a member of the IRA.

3:34:193:34:20

In 1985, a BBC documentary called Real Lives,

3:34:253:34:29

due to be screened across the UK,

3:34:293:34:31

examined this man of contradictions,

3:34:313:34:34

placing the Corporation right in the firing line.

3:34:343:34:37

While the IRA wanted to bring down the British Government,

3:34:373:34:41

this half hour of television almost brought down the BBC.

3:34:413:34:45

Margaret Thatcher's Government wanted the programme scrapped.

3:34:453:34:49

The BBC withdrew it, leading to accusations of both censorship

3:34:493:34:52

and propaganda. It was broadcast two months later.

3:34:523:34:56

We had the Real Lives documentary, which was revolutionary.

3:34:563:35:00

The past 15 years have seen many sacrifices.

3:35:003:35:03

In Republican graves throughout Ireland

3:35:033:35:06

lie the remains of Irishmen and women who saw that resistance

3:35:063:35:10

was the only method that Britain understood.

3:35:103:35:13

It actually showed someone who had been frequently called

3:35:133:35:16

a leading IRA man playing with his kids on the beach,

3:35:163:35:19

laughing and talking with his wife.

3:35:193:35:22

Very relaxed, very calm.

3:35:223:35:24

So, it actually showed him as a human being

3:35:243:35:27

and allowed him to discuss what his views and aspirations

3:35:273:35:31

and what his feelings were.

3:35:313:35:32

We believe the only way that Irish people can bring about

3:35:323:35:37

the freedom of their country

3:35:373:35:40

is through the use of armed struggle.

3:35:403:35:43

I wish it could be done in another way.

3:35:433:35:46

If someone could tell me a peaceful way to do it,

3:35:463:35:50

then I would gladly support that. But no-one has yet done that.

3:35:503:35:53

We saw him counterpoised with Gregory Campbell.

3:35:533:35:57

Hello. How are you?

3:35:573:35:59

Nobody had any conception of how controversial it would be,

3:35:593:36:03

that Margaret Thatcher would intervene.

3:36:033:36:06

and it would for a day, I think,

3:36:063:36:08

create a worldwide news strike by BBC journalists.

3:36:083:36:13

I don't think anybody would say I was responsible for that.

3:36:133:36:17

But I had a clear choice.

3:36:183:36:20

It was clear to me what the producers were trying to do,

3:36:203:36:24

and that was to present Martin McGuinness in a particular light.

3:36:243:36:27

So I said, "Well, if they do, I will present the truth about him."

3:36:273:36:32

And perhaps that's what I'm doing now as well.

3:36:323:36:35

In the Protestant community, there is a great concern

3:36:373:36:42

that somebody like Martin McGuinness

3:36:423:36:45

can become almost a cult figure

3:36:453:36:49

in the Republican community,

3:36:493:36:51

can be elected at election after election.

3:36:513:36:55

It was quite interesting because we saw a shot

3:36:553:36:59

of Gregory Campbell cleaning his gun.

3:36:593:37:02

So, it was a neat sort of reversal.

3:37:023:37:04

You were expecting to see Martin McGuinness maybe cleaning his,

3:37:043:37:08

but it wasn't to be.

3:37:083:37:09

What you saw with me was a factual representation

3:37:123:37:15

of the way it was in 1984.

3:37:153:37:19

But I didn't like the correlation of illegal arms

3:37:213:37:28

that were used to kill innocent people

3:37:283:37:31

with the personal protection weapon

3:37:313:37:34

that was being used to defend innocent people.

3:37:343:37:36

I remember the controversy over the parallels which

3:37:363:37:40

the Real Lives programme drew between Martin McGuinness

3:37:403:37:44

on the one hand and Gregory Campbell on the other.

3:37:443:37:47

People on both sides were a bit angry about that.

3:37:473:37:50

Gregory's people were angry about their man being compared to

3:37:503:37:54

and IRA activist,

3:37:543:37:56

and Republicans were angry at their leader

3:37:563:37:59

being compared to somebody who was perceived as a sectarian bigot.

3:37:593:38:03

Were there any similarities between you and Martin McGuinness?

3:38:033:38:07

Well, I suppose we were round about the same age,

3:38:093:38:13

and we breathed the same air.

3:38:133:38:15

But it wasn't all about PR and publicity.

3:38:183:38:21

Even in the later stages of the IRA campaign,

3:38:213:38:24

and even in Martin McGuinness's home city,

3:38:243:38:26

violence towards those considered to be informers and collaborators

3:38:263:38:30

was extreme.

3:38:303:38:32

The IRA decided to use civilians as human bombs.

3:38:323:38:36

The place and times that belonged to Martin McGuinness

3:38:413:38:45

also belonged to Kathleen Gillespie.

3:38:453:38:47

She grew up in Derry

3:38:503:38:51

and married her husband Patsy in the same church

3:38:513:38:54

where Martin McGuinness's funeral was held last week.

3:38:543:38:57

I don't know if it was love at first sight,

3:39:013:39:03

but I fancied him when I was 16.

3:39:033:39:06

We got engaged when I was 17

3:39:073:39:11

and we got married when I was 20.

3:39:113:39:14

Like many in Derry in the early '70s,

3:39:143:39:16

Patsy Gillespie found it hard to get work.

3:39:163:39:20

He started cooking in an Army base, a risky job in a city

3:39:203:39:23

where the IRA was such a heavy presence.

3:39:233:39:27

It wasn't a sensible move.

3:39:313:39:33

But Patsy didn't want to be on the dole.

3:39:333:39:35

He needed a job, wanted to look after his family.

3:39:373:39:41

Patsy's job made him what the IRA called a legitimate target.

3:39:413:39:45

One night in October 1990,

3:39:453:39:48

masked gunmen took over the family home.

3:39:483:39:51

They took Patsy away at midnight,

3:39:513:39:54

they led him into the living room to say goodbye to us.

3:39:543:39:57

-NEWS REPORT:

-The terrorists told Mrs Gillespie

3:39:573:39:59

that no-one would be harmed

3:39:593:40:01

and her husband would be back in half an hour.

3:40:013:40:03

He put his arms round us and said, "Don't worry, girl.

3:40:033:40:05

"Everything will be all right, I will be home soon."

3:40:053:40:08

And that was the last time I saw him.

3:40:083:40:11

Patsy Gillespie was one of three men the IRA forced

3:40:113:40:14

to drive car bombs that night.

3:40:143:40:17

In Newry and Omagh, the drivers managed to escape

3:40:173:40:20

before the bombs went off, but Patsy Gillespie had no chance

3:40:203:40:24

to get away from the massive bomb he drove.

3:40:243:40:27

The van contained, to my knowledge, 1,200lb of explosives,

3:40:273:40:33

and Patsy was chained to the van.

3:40:333:40:36

So, he must've known then,

3:40:363:40:38

"I'm chained. I'm not going to get out of here."

3:40:383:40:42

-NEWS REPORT:

-A senior security source said last night's bombings

3:40:423:40:45

reveal an obscene new twist.

3:40:453:40:48

He said they're using human bombs.

3:40:483:40:50

He drove into the Army checkpoint at Coshquin

3:40:503:40:56

and immediately shouted a warning,

3:40:563:40:59

"I'm loaded, I'm loaded, get away! Get away!

3:40:593:41:01

"I'm loaded."

3:41:013:41:03

Patsy Gillespie and five soldiers were killed in the blast.

3:41:033:41:07

Kathleen heard the bomb go off from her home.

3:41:073:41:10

We sort of knew all day that Patsy was dead,

3:41:103:41:14

but the confirmation didn't come

3:41:143:41:17

because...there was nothing to identify him.

3:41:173:41:21

There was only...

3:41:233:41:24

The police were finding wee bits of body parts and bits of flesh,

3:41:243:41:28

and Patsy was identified by a piece of flesh

3:41:283:41:34

which was found attached to part of a grey zip

3:41:343:41:39

of the cardigan he was wearing when they took him away.

3:41:393:41:42

Did you know that at the time?

3:41:453:41:47

No. Patsy's remains were brought home from the hospital

3:41:473:41:52

on the Friday,

3:41:523:41:55

and I still thought that they were

3:41:553:41:58

taking me to identify the body.

3:41:583:42:01

Because I said to the detectives when we went to the mortuary

3:42:013:42:05

at Altnagelvin,

3:42:053:42:07

"Are we going in to identify the body now?"

3:42:073:42:11

And he said, "The coffin's closed, Kathleen."

3:42:123:42:17

That's when I thought, "Something's not right here."

3:42:203:42:26

When you look at that and compare it to the 21st century

3:42:293:42:34

and Isis, that is probably the closest that they came

3:42:343:42:38

to being the forerunner to Isis.

3:42:383:42:40

You recall the horror which went through the area,

3:42:423:42:46

including among people who were not at all unsympathetic

3:42:463:42:50

to the armed struggle.

3:42:503:42:52

I remember the day after,

3:42:523:42:53

seeing a senior member of the Provisional IRA,

3:42:533:42:56

in Rossville Street,

3:42:563:42:58

and crossing the street to say to him and I said,

3:42:583:43:01

"That was a really lousy action last night."

3:43:013:43:05

He replied, "Eamonn, that was a perfect military operation."

3:43:053:43:09

In 2013, at the Oxford Union,

3:43:113:43:13

Martin McGuinness was challenged about Patsy Gillespie's death

3:43:133:43:17

by Victor Barker whose 12-year-old son was killed in the Omagh bomb.

3:43:173:43:21

Patsy Gillespie's widow,

3:43:243:43:26

who's alive today,

3:43:263:43:27

knows exactly what happened

3:43:273:43:29

and who ordered the death of her husband.

3:43:293:43:32

Everybody in this room would have more respect for you, Martin,

3:43:323:43:36

if you accepted your position

3:43:363:43:39

and you started telling the truth.

3:43:393:43:42

APPLAUSE

3:43:423:43:44

I don't know who was involved in the bomb explosion

3:43:473:43:49

which took the life of Patsy Gillespie.

3:43:493:43:52

Some people might think I do, but I don't.

3:43:523:43:54

When you say you don't know, for example, in Patsy Gillespie's case,

3:43:543:43:57

-you could find out.

-I'm in government.

3:43:573:44:00

The job of finding out is the responsibility of the police.

3:44:003:44:05

By the stage of the human bombs in 1990,

3:44:053:44:09

operations like that would have

3:44:093:44:11

needed the approval of the Northern Command leadership,

3:44:113:44:14

and he was OC of the Northern Command.

3:44:143:44:16

So he would have known all about it and given the go-ahead.

3:44:163:44:19

A good few years ago,

3:44:193:44:22

I had to try and come to terms

3:44:223:44:26

with the fact that all the truths will never be told.

3:44:263:44:31

There are so many secrets still,

3:44:313:44:34

and Martin McGuinness has taken

3:44:343:44:36

a lot of secrets to the grave with him,

3:44:363:44:39

which can never be revealed.

3:44:393:44:41

This is where Patsy Gillespie died.

3:44:433:44:46

Time and the peace process have removed

3:44:483:44:50

more of the Army checkpoint than the bomb did.

3:44:503:44:53

It's very strange, because I feel closer to Patsy at Coshquin

3:44:553:45:00

than I do actually at his grave.

3:45:003:45:03

To me, Coshquin is the last place where Patsy was complete.

3:45:033:45:07

It's like part of his presence is still around there somewhere.

3:45:103:45:17

I do send my condolences to Martin McGuinness's wife

3:45:203:45:25

but, at the same time, I'm very envious of her and her family

3:45:253:45:30

because they got to sit beside him while he died, and comfort him.

3:45:303:45:37

And it was a comfort for them. And I was robbed of that.

3:45:373:45:40

It's hard to reconcile Martin McGuinness

3:45:453:45:48

the IRA leader who sanctioned such horror

3:45:483:45:51

with Martin McGuinness the politician

3:45:513:45:53

who did so much in recent years to make this place work.

3:45:533:45:57

Within months of Patsy Gillespie's murder,

3:45:573:46:00

he was holding secret peace talks with the British Government,

3:46:003:46:03

which ultimately ended the IRA's campaign.

3:46:033:46:06

For some reason, he'd decided the violence had to stop.

3:46:063:46:10

And it's important to try and understand why.

3:46:103:46:13

Was this simply a new tactic

3:46:133:46:15

or had Martin McGuinness seen the error of his ways?

3:46:153:46:19

Martin McGuinness's life, a very public life,

3:46:193:46:22

is that of a journey.

3:46:223:46:24

If we read in the Scriptures

3:46:243:46:27

about Saul of Tarsus making a remarkable journey,

3:46:273:46:31

being the chief of sinners and becoming

3:46:313:46:34

God's and Christ's chief witness,

3:46:343:46:36

and Martin McGuinness, while it's not a theological journey,

3:46:363:46:40

it has been a life journey where he has been the chief sinner

3:46:403:46:45

and has become the person who has become one of the

3:46:453:46:48

chief peacemakers in Northern Ireland.

3:46:483:46:50

Religion may have played its part, but even in Belfast's

3:46:533:46:56

Clonard Monastery, where key talks were held,

3:46:563:46:59

the sales pitch for peace was grounded in practical politics.

3:46:593:47:03

Through working with Father Alec Reid

3:47:063:47:08

and the peace ministry

3:47:083:47:10

that ran from Clonard Monastery,

3:47:103:47:13

and I knew of the work that was

3:47:133:47:16

being done to try and persuade the IRA

3:47:163:47:20

towards the democratic process,

3:47:203:47:22

to use politics and to leave behind the gun,

3:47:223:47:26

I became aware of what a very important figure he was,

3:47:263:47:29

also of what a very, very important figure Gerry Adams was

3:47:293:47:33

in terms of bringing that paramilitary constituency with them,

3:47:333:47:38

persuading them to what Father Alec always used to call

3:47:383:47:41

the alternative solution, the alternative strategy.

3:47:413:47:45

Violence and the politics for Republicans were always

3:47:473:47:51

inextricably linked.

3:47:513:47:52

The balance was what changed.

3:47:523:47:55

Eventually it was seen that violence was counter-productive

3:47:553:47:58

for Republicans and that they could achieve more by politics.

3:47:583:48:01

Martin McGuinness brought plenty of fanaticism to the violent era

3:48:013:48:05

of the Provisional IRA, and he brought the same fanaticism

3:48:053:48:09

into the peace process.

3:48:093:48:10

And if peace was a tactical move by Republicans,

3:48:133:48:16

was that because the IRA had reached stalemate with the British

3:48:163:48:20

or even faced defeat?

3:48:203:48:22

Once Martin McGuinness decided that the IRA's armed struggle was

3:48:323:48:36

not yielding what he had hoped and thought it would achieve,

3:48:363:48:38

he was prepared to be flexible

3:48:383:48:40

in terms of operating on a different basis.

3:48:403:48:42

The fact that it took so long to get serious communication about

3:48:423:48:45

the sort of ending of the conflict was partly because it needed

3:48:453:48:49

to get to the point where the IRA thought,

3:48:493:48:51

"We do need to bring something to an end or at least to change

3:48:513:48:53

"our strategy in pursuing our Republican goals."

3:48:533:48:56

Did a penny drop?

3:48:593:49:00

Was there a shaft of light from heaven?

3:49:003:49:03

Was there a Damascus road moment in Martin McGuinness's life?

3:49:033:49:06

I tend not to think so.

3:49:063:49:08

I think it was a gradual process,

3:49:083:49:10

a realisation on his part and on other people's part,

3:49:103:49:14

and of course they would probably never concede or admit this,

3:49:143:49:18

that their war was unwinnable,

3:49:183:49:20

that the British were actually on top of them.

3:49:203:49:22

How do you then rationalise where Martin McGuinness got to?

3:49:253:49:28

People can change. There can be a change of heart in people.

3:49:283:49:31

And I actually think that they're entitled to have that change

3:49:313:49:34

and entitled to be encouraged in that change.

3:49:343:49:37

And I think most people would recognise that that's what

3:49:373:49:40

you saw in Martin McGuinness.

3:49:403:49:43

Change of heart, or simply change of head and tactics?

3:49:433:49:47

It's hard to overstate how big a stretch it was for

3:49:473:49:50

a Republican leader like Martin McGuinness to come here,

3:49:503:49:54

the seat of Unionism on the hill, and take office.

3:49:543:49:58

I nominate Martin McGuinness as Minister for Education.

3:49:583:50:02

HISSING

3:50:023:50:04

Shame.

3:50:043:50:06

Will Mr Martin McGuinness confirm that

3:50:063:50:08

-he is willing to take up office?

-HISSING CONTINUES

3:50:083:50:10

Order! Order!

3:50:103:50:13

What's clear is that he took to it with born-again zeal.

3:50:133:50:17

Good to see you. How are you doing? Thank you very much.

3:50:173:50:21

The cameras were out to capture the new Education Minister's

3:50:213:50:24

first day at the department's headquarters in Rathgael.

3:50:243:50:28

-THEY CHANT:

-McGuinness out. Went do we want it?

-Now.

3:50:283:50:32

-What do we want?

-McGuinness out.

3:50:323:50:34

-When do we want it?

-Now.

3:50:343:50:35

And they also captured the angry protests at Queen's Students' Union.

3:50:353:50:39

That looks far better than I do. My curly hair, what's left of it.

3:50:463:50:50

Hello.

3:50:503:50:52

A younger generation appeared more welcoming.

3:50:523:50:55

# That's when your dreams will all come true. #

3:50:553:50:58

-Brilliant.

-Brilliant. Absolutely first class.

3:50:583:51:01

Well done, everybody.

3:51:013:51:04

Having taken the huge step of entering Stormont,

3:51:043:51:07

Martin McGuinness seemed genuinely upset

3:51:073:51:10

when it appeared likely to fall over decommissioning.

3:51:103:51:14

It's been absolutely gut-wrenching for me,

3:51:153:51:19

as an Irish Republican, to come to this building, Stormont,

3:51:193:51:24

and be a minister in a Northern Executive.

3:51:243:51:27

But was he being seduced by the institutions?

3:51:293:51:32

It was surprising just how far he would travel to keep Stormont alive.

3:51:373:51:42

It certainly led him into some astonishing relationships.

3:51:423:51:45

It was a summer's evening

3:51:473:51:49

and I turned up on my motorbike and

3:51:493:51:52

I wear a balaclava on my motorbike,

3:51:523:51:54

and I took my helmet off and McGuinness was standing there

3:51:543:51:57

and I took the balaclava off and I said,

3:51:573:51:59

"I'm the only one wearing a balaclava here."

3:51:593:52:02

And that broke the ice.

3:52:023:52:04

Because I think they could've taken that one of two ways.

3:52:043:52:07

"Is he deliberately trying to rub us the wrong way

3:52:073:52:09

"or was that actually quite funny?"

3:52:093:52:11

But serious business needed to be done.

3:52:113:52:14

Painful choices for Sinn Fein and the IRA.

3:52:143:52:18

Partnership government with the DUP meant Republican support

3:52:183:52:22

for policing, decommissioning

3:52:223:52:24

and the winding up of the IRA.

3:52:243:52:27

Martin McGuinness, who did so much to build the IRA,

3:52:273:52:31

was now charged with taking it apart.

3:52:313:52:34

Martin was the guy who was going to have to sell it to the troops,

3:52:343:52:38

and it was the things that he said,

3:52:383:52:40

you knew he was the guy that was going into the caves

3:52:403:52:43

to sell the message.

3:52:433:52:45

Martin McGuinness brought Sinn Fein over the Rubicon that they've

3:52:453:52:48

never, ever been able to go back on.

3:52:483:52:51

And that was swearing support and giving legitimacy

3:52:513:52:55

to the Crown forces of the British state in Ireland.

3:52:553:52:58

And once a Republican does that in the cold light of day, there's

3:52:583:53:01

no going back for them.

3:53:013:53:02

And their weapons are no longer the weapons of murder,

3:53:023:53:05

their weapons have to be the weapons of politics.

3:53:053:53:08

The Republican romance with Stormont was now personified

3:53:103:53:14

in a most unlikely couple.

3:53:143:53:16

People that never spoke to one another before now can even chuckle.

3:53:243:53:28

We've been described as the Chuckle Brothers back home

3:53:283:53:31

by people who thought that would've demeaned us in the beginning.

3:53:313:53:35

It turned against them in the end and we're hoping we can

3:53:353:53:38

chuckle our way through 2008.

3:53:383:53:40

He knows that I can stand the pace

3:53:403:53:43

and he complains I work him too hard.

3:53:433:53:46

He and I have a very positive approach, and it's working.

3:53:463:53:51

I haven't hit him yet

3:53:513:53:53

and he hasn't hit me yet.

3:53:533:53:55

Not an inch and no surrender.

3:53:553:53:57

My father had charisma in bucket-loads,

3:53:593:54:02

and Martin McGuinness had the X factor.

3:54:023:54:05

They had that ability to look people directly in the eye,

3:54:053:54:11

talk to them man to man,

3:54:113:54:13

person to person, and empathise and sympathise and engage with them.

3:54:133:54:19

And all of a sudden here we were on a settee, a small settee,

3:54:193:54:25

that obviously had good springs.

3:54:253:54:28

We were in the midst of battles.

3:54:283:54:30

That's right. Campaigning.

3:54:303:54:32

We're only too glad he'd bring this to both of you...

3:54:323:54:35

And, you know, it was amazing.

3:54:373:54:41

But funny, you know, I remember that morning talking Paisley

3:54:413:54:46

and he believed

3:54:463:54:50

that this Martin McGuinness guy had transformed,

3:54:503:54:55

and Martin McGuinness believed that Ian Paisley had transformed.

3:54:553:55:00

I had developed a very good working relationship with Martin McGuinness.

3:55:023:55:06

He was a crucial figure in the negotiations

3:55:063:55:10

to get self-government in which he played a leading role

3:55:103:55:16

and which the old enemies were brought together

3:55:163:55:19

to get that agreed and get it working properly

3:55:193:55:22

and the unlikely alliance with Ian Paisley.

3:55:223:55:26

The Chuckle Brothers, was, I think,

3:55:263:55:29

indicative of a warm personality on both sides.

3:55:293:55:33

Of course the DUP-Sinn Fein marriage was far from perfect,

3:55:353:55:39

though it was surprisingly solid,

3:55:393:55:42

even when Ian Paisley was replaced by Peter Robinson.

3:55:423:55:45

Through thick and thin,

3:55:453:55:47

Martin McGuinness proved his fidelity.

3:55:473:55:49

And when a challenge came from former Republican comrades

3:55:493:55:53

he made it abundantly clear where his loyalties now lay.

3:55:533:55:57

The shooting happened just before 10 o'clock last night.

3:56:013:56:04

The soldiers from 38 Engineer Regiment

3:56:043:56:06

were hours from deployment to Afghanistan.

3:56:063:56:08

It's understood they'd ordered the pizzas

3:56:083:56:11

and were shot as they took delivery of them.

3:56:113:56:13

Two days after the Massereene Barracks shooting,

3:56:133:56:16

PSNI officer Stephen Carroll was shot dead in Craigavon.

3:56:163:56:20

This was the first killing of a police officer in Northern Ireland

3:56:203:56:24

since the Good Friday Agreement.

3:56:243:56:27

Martin McGuinness's condemnation proved a watershed.

3:56:273:56:30

These people, they are traitors to the island of Ireland.

3:56:313:56:35

They have betrayed the political desires,

3:56:353:56:39

hopes and aspirations of all the people who live in this island

3:56:393:56:42

and they don't deserve to be supported by anyone.

3:56:423:56:46

It would have been a difficult message for him to sell in

3:56:463:56:50

his own community, even though it was dissidents.

3:56:503:56:53

I know, around his own house,

3:56:533:56:55

there were some paint bombs thrown at his house,

3:56:553:56:57

so it didn't go unnoticed.

3:56:573:56:59

But not everybody had signed up to the extent that

3:56:593:57:01

Martin McGuinness had signed up to this.

3:57:013:57:04

The day that he did that,

3:57:043:57:05

he was signalling very, very strongly to Republicans

3:57:053:57:09

that he had crossed the Rubicon.

3:57:093:57:11

That there's no going back.

3:57:113:57:13

He knew, ideologically, the day that he took his oath as a minister,

3:57:133:57:16

an oath that included support for the police, that was it.

3:57:163:57:20

His language that day was absolutely incredible.

3:57:203:57:25

It had an effect all over the island of Ireland.

3:57:253:57:28

I think that resounded and was hugely brave.

3:57:283:57:32

When you say he's brave, do you mean politically brave

3:57:323:57:35

or are we talking about threats to his life?

3:57:353:57:37

Oh, threats to his life.

3:57:373:57:39

I mean, Martin, there was a threat to Martin's life for long periods.

3:57:393:57:44

I know that.

3:57:443:57:46

It seemed there were no lengths to which Martin McGuinness wouldn't go.

3:57:513:57:55

But it wasn't always his call alone.

3:57:553:57:58

With the historic state visit of the Queen to the Republic,

3:57:593:58:02

Sinn Fein was invited to Dublin Castle.

3:58:023:58:06

But meeting the Queen of England remained, at that time,

3:58:063:58:09

a step too far.

3:58:093:58:10

My hope had been that when she came to Dublin, to Dublin Castle,

3:58:113:58:16

that Sinn Fein would attend.

3:58:163:58:18

-That was my hope.

-They boycotted that.

3:58:183:58:21

Was that a mistake, from their point of view?

3:58:213:58:23

Oh, absolutely it was a mistake

3:58:233:58:25

and they knew very quickly that it was a mistake.

3:58:253:58:26

SHE SPEAKS IN GAELIC

3:58:263:58:28

APPLAUSE

3:58:333:58:34

It was a mistake that Martin McGuinness rectified in Belfast.

3:58:393:58:43

If Martin made up his mind that he was going to do something,

3:58:493:58:52

he did it.

3:58:523:58:54

-Do you think he was key in that?

-Totally. Totally. No doubt about it.

3:58:543:58:58

Totally. Lock, stock and barrel.

3:58:583:59:00

That was Martin McGuinness

3:59:003:59:03

making the decision that he was going to carry this.

3:59:033:59:07

-I'm still a Republican.

-Martin, how was it to meet the Queen?

-Very nice.

3:59:073:59:12

There came a sense of respect between the two people.

3:59:123:59:15

In some ways, I think Martin McGuinness

3:59:153:59:17

treated the Queen like the way he would have treated his mother.

3:59:173:59:20

They were the same age bracket.

3:59:203:59:21

There was almost that deference to somebody who was an older person

3:59:213:59:24

and it was incredibly brave of the Queen

3:59:243:59:27

to step forward to reach out her hand.

3:59:273:59:30

But it was equally courageous of Martin McGuinness

3:59:303:59:33

in his own constituency to take her hand.

3:59:333:59:35

In shaking the hand of Queen Elizabeth, I'm extending the hand of

3:59:353:59:40

peace and reconciliation to all of my Unionist brothers and sisters.

3:59:403:59:45

He showed a lot of courage in doing that,

3:59:453:59:47

because there would have been Republicans...

3:59:473:59:50

There were Republicans who sniped at him for meeting the Queen.

3:59:503:59:54

He showed leadership as opposed to followership.

3:59:554:00:00

It wasn't just one meeting with the Queen.

4:00:004:00:03

Deputy First Minister, Your Majesty.

4:00:034:00:05

-Ah, good evening.

-Hello. Are you well?

4:00:054:00:08

-Thank you very much, I'm still alive!

-Nice to see you again.

4:00:084:00:12

But the past is not easily forgotten.

4:00:124:00:15

Martin McGuinness never apologised for past actions of the IRA.

4:00:154:00:20

And that always had the potential to threaten the process.

4:00:204:00:25

When Arlene Foster took charge as First Minister, she told Spotlight

4:00:254:00:30

about the difficulties she experienced with Martin McGuinness

4:00:304:00:33

because of his graveside oration at the IRA funeral

4:00:334:00:37

of the man she believes tried to kill her father.

4:00:374:00:40

If you talk to Martin McGuinness now, he will say,

4:00:444:00:47

and I heard him say it just recently,

4:00:474:00:49

that Unionists aren't the enemy,

4:00:494:00:51

the enemy is poverty, the enemy is unemployment,

4:00:514:00:54

the enemy is this, that and the other.

4:00:544:00:55

That's fine but it doesn't take away from the fact

4:00:554:00:58

that he thought it appropriate to speak at Seamus McElwaine's funeral.

4:00:584:01:02

A man who had been responsible for murdering

4:01:024:01:07

many people in County Fermanagh.

4:01:074:01:10

In one of his final interviews, Martin McGuinness was asked

4:01:124:01:16

if he had regrets about endorsing the use of violence.

4:01:164:01:19

I don't regret any of that.

4:01:224:01:25

But I think that people can judge all of that, and the people

4:01:254:01:29

who wrote about these matters were never in the city,

4:01:294:01:32

they don't understand what was happening in the city at the time.

4:01:324:01:36

I can understand people now saying,

4:01:364:01:39

"Well, the Martin McGuinness of the early 1970s and '80s and '90s,

4:01:394:01:43

"you have to look at him in that context of that time,

4:01:434:01:47

"whatever false justification he might have been used

4:01:474:01:51

"for being involved in the IRA."

4:01:514:01:53

If you look at the latter Martin McGuinness, in latter days,

4:01:534:01:58

even in the final couple of months of his life,

4:01:584:02:02

he had resigned as Deputy First Minister,

4:02:024:02:05

the peace process was well embedded, over 20 years on,

4:02:054:02:09

he was obviously gravely ill,

4:02:094:02:11

everyone could see he was gravely ill and he knew it.

4:02:114:02:15

The Grim Reaper was almost at the door, and the Martin McGuinness

4:02:154:02:19

of the latter days, the resigned Martin McGuinness,

4:02:194:02:23

the peacemaker Martin McGuinness said, "I regret none of it."

4:02:234:02:27

That summed the man up for me.

4:02:274:02:29

But Martin McGuinness did stretch Republicans

4:02:294:02:32

and made some big gestures.

4:02:324:02:34

But his supporters didn't feel the DUP responded in kind.

4:02:344:02:38

Now battling serious illness,

4:02:384:02:41

scandals like the Renewable Heating Incentive raised serious tensions.

4:02:414:02:47

A DUP decision to scrap an Irish language scheme

4:02:474:02:50

added to a sense of crisis.

4:02:504:02:53

The frail and dying Martin McGuinness tried a strategy

4:02:534:02:57

that had worked before, but his power was slipping away.

4:02:574:03:01

I phoned Arlene Foster, I said to her,

4:03:034:03:05

"Arlene, what I'm asking for is your cooperation.

4:03:054:03:09

"Stand aside for four or five weeks."

4:03:094:03:12

I provided a way out for Arlene Foster, and she refused to take it.

4:03:124:03:17

Why did Martin McGuinness ultimately resign?

4:03:174:03:19

Ultimately, the reason McGuinness resigned was the Nationalist and

4:03:214:03:25

Republican base had had enough of this sense that the DUP were

4:03:254:03:30

essentially setting the agenda.

4:03:304:03:33

McGuinness was able to counter that to some degree,

4:03:334:03:37

but what happened over the unfolding RHI scandal

4:03:374:03:39

and the arrogant way that the DUP were seen

4:03:394:03:42

to be dismissing Sinn Fein concerns

4:03:424:03:45

I think really forced Martin McGuinness's hand

4:03:454:03:48

in a way that he was left with no other choice than to resign.

4:03:484:03:52

We in Sinn Fein will not tolerate

4:03:554:03:57

the arrogance of Arlene Foster and the DUP.

4:03:574:04:00

Sinn Fein wants equality and respect for everyone.

4:04:024:04:08

And that's what this process must be about.

4:04:084:04:12

So today I have told Arlene Foster

4:04:124:04:15

that I have tendered my resignation, effective from 5pm today.

4:04:154:04:22

I have no doubt that that was a devastating time for him.

4:04:254:04:30

Personally devastating, because everything that

4:04:304:04:33

he had worked for was not just about building up,

4:04:334:04:36

but sustaining the institutions.

4:04:364:04:38

Just weeks after he resigned,

4:04:424:04:44

Republicans were laying their hero to rest.

4:04:444:04:47

We applaud Martin McGuinness. He was a Republican of the Republic.

4:04:544:05:01

The dual leadership of Adams and McGuinness has been a constant

4:05:104:05:14

at the forefront of the Republican movement

4:05:144:05:16

since the two first met back in 1972,

4:05:164:05:19

when they went to negotiate with the British Government.

4:05:194:05:22

With Martin McGuinness now gone and Gerry Adams solely in charge, what

4:05:224:05:26

many are asking is have Republicans fallen out of love with Stormont?

4:05:264:05:31

Are we entering a kind of long cold war in Northern Ireland politics?

4:05:314:05:36

I think, for Sinn Fein,

4:05:364:05:37

they felt they were making very little progress

4:05:374:05:39

within the institutions,

4:05:394:05:41

so I think the era of Sinn Fein support

4:05:414:05:43

for the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement,

4:05:434:05:45

whilst it's not over, there's no doubt that Sinn Fein have cooled

4:05:454:05:48

on the idea of devolved power-sharing,

4:05:484:05:51

at least in the short term.

4:05:514:05:52

Why is Sinn Fein apparently reluctant

4:05:524:05:56

to go back into Stormont government?

4:05:564:05:58

They know they have just secured their highest ever vote

4:05:584:06:02

in a Northern Ireland election, at a time when, under the

4:06:024:06:05

leadership of Martin McGuinness, really as his final act as leader,

4:06:054:06:09

he pulled the plug on the institutions.

4:06:094:06:12

And by doing so, he tapped into a sentiment that had existed

4:06:124:06:17

within Nationalism that the institutions were not working

4:06:174:06:21

in an even manner to deliver for both Nationalists and Unionism,

4:06:214:06:26

that the pendulum had swung too far in favour of Unionists.

4:06:264:06:29

Having worked so hard to make Stormont function,

4:06:294:06:33

some Republican sources say Martin McGuinness

4:06:334:06:35

would have wanted it to return.

4:06:354:06:37

But Brexit, due to be formally triggered by Theresa May

4:06:374:06:41

tomorrow, has changed the circumstances in a way

4:06:414:06:44

that Gerry Adams seems to relish.

4:06:444:06:47

In a way, then, Brexit is a gift for you, right?

4:06:474:06:51

You campaigned against it, but now that it's happening,

4:06:514:06:54

you're using it to make the case for a united Ireland.

4:06:544:06:57

Yeah, well, you always have to never

4:06:574:07:00

waste a crisis, never waste a difficulty.

4:07:004:07:03

Gerry Adams has said never waste a good crisis.

4:07:034:07:07

Is that what we're now seeing playing out?

4:07:074:07:09

That's right.

4:07:094:07:11

There's absolutely no doubt about that.

4:07:114:07:13

Adams is going to make as much use as he can of this crisis.

4:07:134:07:16

It is a crisis.

4:07:164:07:18

The difference is, 20 years ago, it would have been a security crisis.

4:07:184:07:22

Now it's a political crisis.

4:07:224:07:24

It is a perfect storm for Republicans.

4:07:244:07:27

They have political advantages now

4:07:274:07:29

that they've not seen in a long, long time.

4:07:294:07:31

CHEERING

4:07:314:07:34

They used them to dramatic effect on 2nd March at the election.

4:07:344:07:38

They came very close to overtaking the DUP

4:07:384:07:41

in terms of seats and the popular vote.

4:07:414:07:44

This is the onward march of Sinn Fein.

4:07:444:07:46

I'm not sure it's a march that can be stopped.

4:07:464:07:49

Rather than calming Unionist nerves,

4:07:494:07:51

Sinn Fein is calling for a border poll.

4:07:514:07:55

Brexit, as we have stated on many occasion, will be a

4:07:554:07:58

disaster for the economy and

4:07:584:07:59

it'll be a disaster for the people of Ireland.

4:07:594:08:02

For us in Sinn Fein, that increases the urgency for

4:08:024:08:05

the need for a referendum on Irish unity,

4:08:054:08:08

and that needs to happen as soon as possible.

4:08:084:08:10

A united Ireland has moved up the political agenda.

4:08:104:08:14

CHEERING

4:08:144:08:16

Sinn Fein could easily become the largest party

4:08:184:08:21

within Stormont.

4:08:214:08:23

Sinn Fein will almost certainly enter coalition government

4:08:234:08:26

within the South.

4:08:264:08:28

It's one step further to actually achieve a majority

4:08:284:08:31

for a united Ireland.

4:08:314:08:33

But it's less inconceivable, the prospect of a

4:08:334:08:35

united Ireland, than it was even two years ago.

4:08:354:08:38

Now it appears that it's become much more part of the mainstream

4:08:384:08:41

discourse in the South as well as the North again.

4:08:414:08:44

There is no prospect that a border poll could

4:08:444:08:46

be won and deliver a united Ireland in the short term.

4:08:464:08:49

This is more a period for building towards

4:08:494:08:52

Irish unity.

4:08:524:08:54

But is this change in tactics driven by events, or the

4:08:564:09:00

absence of Martin McGuinness?

4:09:004:09:02

I genuinely believe that Stormont would have collapsed if he had been

4:09:034:09:07

part of the Sinn Fein process up to the end.

4:09:074:09:11

I know they say he was, but I

4:09:114:09:13

think his influence was lacking at that time.

4:09:134:09:16

And I think that the Executive

4:09:164:09:18

wouldn't have collapsed to the same extent that it did.

4:09:184:09:22

I just think that Brexit is going to dominate politics, and therefore I

4:09:234:09:29

think that we need a good few statesmen around the place.

4:09:294:09:33

It would have been nice to have McGuinness around to

4:09:334:09:36

do some of that type of stuff.

4:09:364:09:38

I think there's a challenge here for Republicans.

4:09:384:09:41

Do they want his legacy to live on?

4:09:414:09:42

Or do they want to diminish it?

4:09:424:09:44

And the fact that they don't have a big beast of

4:09:444:09:48

his calibre, and they don't have someone with his interpersonal

4:09:484:09:52

skills in Sinn Fein at the present time means that there is huge danger

4:09:524:09:56

of that relationship not working properly.

4:09:564:09:59

And that relationship has got to be synchronised.

4:09:594:10:02

But others are less convinced that Gerry Adams is doing

4:10:024:10:05

anything different to what Martin McGuinness himself

4:10:054:10:08

would have supported.

4:10:084:10:10

Well, there is a view that he was one of the

4:10:104:10:13

primary advocates of keeping the institutions running.

4:10:134:10:16

I suppose it's one of the ultimate ironies, then,

4:10:164:10:19

that he was the man that brought them down by his resignation.

4:10:194:10:23

I think one of the most significant aspects of

4:10:244:10:27

Martin McGuinness's time as a leading Republican was that he

4:10:274:10:31

forged a remarkable dual leadership alongside Gerry Adams, and that

4:10:314:10:37

brought the Republicanism from the IRA campaign

4:10:374:10:41

to the peace process, and through the peace process,

4:10:414:10:45

political talks, into the devolved era.

4:10:454:10:48

It was striking that at no period of their tenure as dual leaders

4:10:484:10:53

could you have put a cigarette paper between them.

4:10:534:10:56

And that was true to outsiders but also to insiders.

4:10:564:10:59

They were very, very careful to never allow any

4:10:594:11:03

sense that one was disagreeing with the other.

4:11:034:11:07

There were definitely inseparable.

4:11:084:11:10

And it wasn't good guy, bad guy.

4:11:104:11:13

I mean, they were very much on the one page.

4:11:134:11:17

That key partnership is no more.

4:11:174:11:19

It is now Adams alone, raising questions

4:11:194:11:23

and uncertainty for Sinn Fein and the future.

4:11:234:11:27

After nearly a decade of sustained devolved government,

4:11:274:11:32

in which Martin McGuinness played a key role,

4:11:324:11:35

the future of our political institutions remains uncertain.

4:11:354:11:39

Talks have failed, Brexit is coming,

4:11:414:11:45

and Martin McGuinness has left the stage.

4:11:454:11:49

Martin McGuinness's journey was indeed remarkable, from IRA hard man

4:11:494:11:55

to soft peacemaker, shaking hands with the Queen and building a warm

4:11:554:12:03

and very important relationship with the DUP leader, Ian Paisley.

4:12:034:12:09

The problem with Northern Ireland politics today is there are

4:12:094:12:14

insufficient leaders of the stature

4:12:144:12:17

of Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness

4:12:174:12:20

who have the capacity to lead and sometimes tell their followers

4:12:204:12:24

things they don't want to hear, and have the courage to do that.

4:12:244:12:28

It seems to me that we all have to make our minds up now,

4:12:284:12:31

that political failure is not an option,

4:12:314:12:34

that whatever we need to do, and part of that will involve

4:12:344:12:38

getting out of the sectarian bunkers and focusing on the future

4:12:384:12:42

and all the issues that are lying ahead of us -

4:12:424:12:45

the economics of Northern Ireland.

4:12:454:12:47

Given where we are now, with Martin McGuinness having left

4:12:474:12:50

the political stage, with institutions that have

4:12:504:12:53

fallen down, with big movements elsewhere, with Brexit and the

4:12:534:12:59

implications for that, are we entering a more dangerous phase?

4:12:594:13:04

From a distance, it's a worry.

4:13:044:13:07

All I can do is pray that they have the guts,

4:13:074:13:13

have the conviction, have the ability and are able to do it.

4:13:134:13:19

But as we talk, it's a question mark.

4:13:194:13:23

So how will Martin McGuinness be remembered,

4:13:264:13:30

given the question mark hanging over Stormont?

4:13:304:13:34

I think when you're assessing Martin McGuinness's legacy, there are two

4:13:344:13:38

aspects to it that shout out, both which have to be remembered.

4:13:384:13:41

One is the crafting of a peace process which has the

4:13:414:13:44

opportunity to make Northern Ireland, Ireland,

4:13:444:13:46

British-Irish politics, transformed in a peaceful way

4:13:464:13:50

which would not have been possible had people like McGuinness

4:13:504:13:52

not decided to move the movement in that direction.

4:13:524:13:55

Having said that, the irony of it is, of course,

4:13:554:13:58

that we wouldn't have needed a peace process in Northern Ireland had it

4:13:584:14:01

not been that in an earlier stage of his career,

4:14:014:14:04

people like Martin McGuiness decided that lethal violence,

4:14:044:14:07

IRA activity was a necessary and legitimate thing.

4:14:074:14:09

And I think both parts of the legacy are important.

4:14:094:14:12

Gunman or statesman, Provo or peacemaker,

4:14:134:14:18

his past and our future now inextricably linked.

4:14:184:14:23

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