29/01/2012 Sunday Politics East Midlands

David Cameron thinks they're a good idea, so why does Derby's Chief

Constable think that commissioners should come with a health warning?

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2020 seconds

Hello, I'm Marie Ashby. The East Midlands is clearly the place to be

after that massive Lottery win. Later we'll be asking if elected

police commissioners could be too much of a gamble. Why a

Conservative city council leader insists they should come with a

health warning. And a warm welcome to our guests

this week. The Labour MP for Bassetlaw, John Mann and Andrew

Bridgen, the Conservative MP in North-West Leicestershire. Both

have a reputation for tough talking, so this should be interesting.

Before we get down to it, the story everyone's been talking about. The

Mansfield couple just down the road from you, John, who've won �40

million on the Lottery. To make matters worse, they look so nice!

What would you do with that kind of money, �40 million? I would try to

go up town and get a bit of a break with my wife. A tiny proportion of

that would assist. The you might be right. What about you, Andrew?

design and a marginal -- it is an unimaginable amount of money. I am

really pleased for them. In our society if you worked and earned

�40 million through your own endeavours, you would pay 50% of it

intact but if you win it just by pure luck, you get away with a tax-

free. I don't know what message we are sending out. I don't think that

is a worry they have. Would you handed back to the Exchequer?

would give a lot to charity. Onto more serious stuff. You've

been critical of Ed Miliband's leadership of the Labour Party

recently, John. Anything to do with the fact that you're sponsored as

an MP by the GMB union? constituency receives lots of money

from individuals, businessman and from unions and if any out there

wants to give more, as long as they are honest, I am sure my party

would want to take it. You are on record saying that you need a

coherent deficit reduction plan, you sound like he has not got a

plan. He has got one but it is not coherent enough. That is why he is

lagging in the opinion polls. I think we need something coherent. I

don't think it is fully coherent yet and I am willing to assist him.

I put down some bills on what could be cut from public spending, 27

girls and if he is wise he will adopt them. And if the Tory liberal

coalition is wise, they will pinch a few of my ideas. At untrue, on

union sponsorship, nothing wrong with unions sponsoring MPs --

Andrew, on union sponsorship. think there is a subtle difference.

Only 10% of the population are in the unions. The Labour Party has

been in the pockets of the unions for a long time.A member of two

unions, Unite and GMB and a liaison officer for the unions with the

Labour Party. I run a small business as well, business people

and trade unions assist in getting the re-elected. And if that was

happening that would be fine, but it is not. As a General Secretary

said, the unions have input to policy making at every single level.

That is why you have not got a single deficit reduction plan. His

the union members had a greater say, what union members would be saying.

It would be similar to me. A does not make sense to cut the police.

Cuts can be made that could go a lot further but we should be

spelling them out. That is precisely why I have put 27 built

into Parliament on what could be cut without affecting people in

this area. -- 27 bells. Debt hit one trillion pounds last week. What

level of national debt do you think we should live to our children and

grandchildren? I think we should be doing President Obama is now doing

in America, where the economy is growing, stimulate the economy by

creating more businesses, making sure people have got money to spend

and ensuring that our children have jobs. People with jobs pay taxes

and that is... The Labour line is we will still try to borrow our way

out of a debt crisis? If it is good enough for Obama... I am not sure

you should be advising Ed Miliband. I didn't think he would be a green

of this. Let's move on. Before we move onto another

controversial area, police commissioners, let's see if there's

something we can get you to agree on. This week, Derbyshire Chief

Fire Officer, Sean Frayne, called for it to be compulsory for all new

homes to be fitted with fire sprinklers. It follows the deaths

of four children in a blaze at their home near Ashbourne. And it

probably started because there was no fire guard in the living room.

The Inside Out programme demonstrated the dramatic

difference sprinklers can make. The room on the left had them, the one

And when you see what difference sprinklers make, surely it is a no-

brainer. All new homes should have them fitted? Homes of a certain

size with a certain number of have intense have compulsory sprinklers

at the moment. -- a certain number of inhabitants. I would maintain

that most fires are probably in older houses with defective wiring.

It will not address that problem at all. It is a very long term

solution. But it would have helped in this particular case. How old

was the House? And give it is not maintained, will they maintain the

sprinklers? De year a grey with -- do you agree with the Derbyshire

Fire Commission that all new houses should have sprinklers? People are

putting their lives on the line, it could make a huge difference and

would certainly save lives and it is certainly worth considering.

are not talking about a huge amount of money, Andrew, we are talking

about �1,500 and �2,000. If that will save lives? That is for new

houses and how many new houses are we building's a couple of 1,000 a

year. It will take a long time to filter through. they cannot be used

as an excuse to cut back on fire services. The risk is old houses.

That is not what the Fire Service says, there has not been a single

death in a house with sprinklers they did. How many have got

sprinklers fitted? I do not know. The cost will come down because the

fire risk is an insurance risk so if this is done in a big scale, it

could well be self-funding. local councils can do it themselves.

In it was worth it in every new building, there would be economies

of scale that of sound like a good idea to move. You would get local

authorities looking at this? should do. We will look at it.

Next, they're already compulsory and by the end of this year we'll

all have one. I'm talking elected police commissioners. But as our

political editor, John Hess, reports, the very idea is already

causing tensions within the coalition and Labour ranks.

Here's a job opportunity you won't find in the papers. Salary, just

over �75,000. Job secured for four years and the option of a further

four years. And the perks? For starters, your own police force.

The job is Police and Crime Commissioner. There'll be one for

each county force in England and Wales. They won't replace chief

constables, they'll still retain day-to-day operational

responsibilities but the commissioner - directly elected by

local voters - will shape force strategy, budgets and ask those

It's one of David Cameron's big ideas. I want there to be police

commissioners so when they do a good job calling the police to

account and are fighting crime in the way local people want, they get

re-elected and if they do a bad job, they will get thrown out. But this

senior East Midlands Tory isn't convinced. Community

representatives soon to be replaced by a commissioner. He will services

a manifesto. -- He or she will say, "this is the manifesto I was

elected on as Chief Constable", now you will now deliver these things.

It's going to up the ante. And the person in charge of police

operating for accounting. It's back on the political beat for Paddy

Tipping. He's a former Labour MP embracing the Conservatives' big

idea of elected police commissioners. He's planning to run

in November's election for the Nottinghamshire job. There is a

police authority with a lot of people but it's got no real focus.

There's a difference between a police authority making policy and

police commissioner who's directly elected and more accountable to

local people. I am out and about already, I am talking to people.

What they want his neighbourhood policing, crime to go down.

Nottinghamshire Police have made improvement but there's a lot to do.

By and it is that a political edge that worries the Police Federation.

With an elected commissioner, he will have temptations to meddle

with operational concern. But is a concern. It is. You have then a

political interference and control over policing and we are supposed

to be independent. That could lead to a serious bust up. The potential

is that you have one individual elected on commitments that are

inevitably going to be about operational policing matters.

When of course operational policing matters are the responsibility of

the Chief Constable. The potential there is for a level of conflict

which not be good for local police to. Greater scrutiny and

accountability. The police face a new investigator. The commission is

on their case. Let's round up the political week

in the East Midlands in 60 Seconds Paddy Tipping thinks it is a good

idea. What a bad idea, what a waste of money. Politicians sticking

their nosed into matters. Is that how you see it? Total waste of time.

We do not need more politicians, this is more politicians. We do not

need them sticking their nose into the running of the police, it is a

terrible idea, a total waste of money. The waste of time, waste of

money, Andrew? You said plenty of ex-Labour politicians interested in

the position. There is not a national solution to crime,

problems in different areas from different areas and it allows for

localisation of priorities and resources to address local issues.

We talked about the cost and it is claimed that bringing the system in

could cost �100 million. Not at all. At the same time, police forces are

having to lose hundreds of officers. The election will cost about �50

million nationally every four years which is 0.1% of the police budget

and that will not be borne by local constabularies or councils, it will

be paid for by government. We will not have to save much on efficiency

to save that much. And the commissioner will be replacing the

police authorities so there is a cost there. He is making it sound

easy. The figures we were given is something like 100 million as well

which would employ something like 1,000 extra police officers across

the country. We have just seen the figures for the amount of stuff we

have lost, 6,000 already. Estimated to lose another 16,000 nationally.

We are saying this is not necessarily the right time to do it,

let's spend the money on actual police officer numbers to maintain

the games we have made in crime numbers. Is this a price worth

paying? You already have the democratic accountability. Police

authorities have worked well and they represent the Spectrum's of

politics. Their work without lay members on there. You will still

have that player with these new police and Crown Commissioners

because they will set up police and crime panels beneath them -- crime

commissioners. The money that Andrew is suggesting that could be

saved will not be saved because they are still there, you are

adding an extra layer of bureaucracy. Do you need that when

you're trying to fight crime and crime is going up? Police and crime

commissioners will have set out their manifestos set in their

budget for the area and also their priorities and that will be

endorsed by the people. But his local democracy working. You are

not just worried about the time involved and the money, you are

worried also that the commissioners may medal in the general policy.

Andrew has alluded to, they will have an agenda and what about that

happens to be when they are elected, it could be with a low turnout

could be a single issue. There's real dangers for the rest of the

county which could have funding and policing withdrawn on the back of

whatever small minority has voted the commissioner in. A low turnout

would not be good, I would agree. Philip Hicks and in our film was a

word that he would end up politicising the police. It will go

the other way. It pulled not be controlled by Whitehall, it will be

controlled by the local people -- it will not be controlled by

Whitehall. Focusing hard on the big issues, something police

authorities failed to do. There will always be somebody who wants

the job. You seen their merit in it was Mark I don't think anyone in my

area wants to see money spent on elected politician rather than that

money be spent on extra police that we have lost from the area. Just

the cost in Bassetlaw is the equivalent of four police officers.

Nobody in Bassetlaw would rather have this ridiculous election and

all the wasted money and bureaucracy rather than the four

police officers. That goes across the whole of the country. It is a

gimmick, a bad gimmick. Sorry to interrupt, John, but we already

have one of the most accountable police forces. We are accountable

to HMRC, the Independent Police Complaints Commission. And the

police authorities that are already set up. And we have Freedom of

Information Act request that we are accountable to the public. We are

open to the public and to introduce an Americanised model would have

some real dangers. Do not get me wrong, we will work with whoever

the Government appoints because it is the Government's decision.

would have to. It is for politicians to decide and we will

work with whatever. -- you would have to. You do not want another

layer? With the consent of the people, what better way of getting

that and having locally elected police commissioners elected by the

people they are there to serve? is purely a gimmick. We do not want

politicians meddling with the police. We do not want money taken

away from the police and wasted in this way. We can hold the police

accountable at as it is. You what an efficient police service serving

our communities and this distract from eight and takes resources away

from it. Do you think people watching will think this is bad

timing? Women need to fight crime, you are talking about spending this

money which we cannot afford? not a huge amount, it is 0.1%.

1,000 police officers across the country, but is the size of a small

shire force. That is a huge amount. This is the fact that the Labour

Party run their country into a huge debt... More members see that as

losing their jobs, jobs going in order to pay for a couple of

politicians to be put in their place. That... 1,000 police

officers would be on the streets keeping this country safer if we

did not use this money. Also a bigger thing that the commissioner

has also got, the power to divert money into other community schemes.

If he is elected on manifesto for a particular electorate, there's a

huge temptation to spend that money in that group. If there is a danger

that he would have too much power, is that the case? The there will be

checks and balances. What will they be? An inspector from the Police

Inspectorate will be making sure the force is still compliance with

rules. You are talking about accountability to the local people

and he will want to do a good job if they want to get re-elected. If

people wanted, they will fight for efficiency savings and there is

huge scope for that. A police commissioner will not do that. The

only power they will have will be meddling. And they will just a

waste more money. What we needed more police out there, not more

politicians. Frankly, give that choice in a referendum to people.

Do you want more politicians or policemen? We will have to leave it

there. Let's round up with 60 The Lord Mayor of Leicester, may be

suspended over claims he got senior officers to cancel his parking

tickets. He maintains they were wrongly issued to him in the first

place. Watch this space! It is a subject which has generated

a lot of heat on our programme. Now East Midland lawyers have found

their latest legal challenge against government plans to reduce

solar panel subsidies for. The Policy Research Unit, Centre

for cities says Nottingham is bottom of the league in the UK when

it comes to creating jobs in the private sector. At the top, East

Crawley in East Sussex. It costs the county's police force

is nearly �1 million. The last time the English Defence League marched

through Leicester. The far-right group is planning another march

next month. This time, the police want pubs and shops to ban the sale