Browse content similar to 05/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Here, the latest allegations on a council leaders expenses. | :01:33. | :01:43. | |
:01:43. | :01:43. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1757 seconds | :01:43. | :31:01. | |
And growing pressure to redefine Hello. I marry Ashby and with me | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
today is Pauline Latham and the Labour MP for Nottingham East Chris | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
Leslie. -- Marie Ashby. Chris is Shadow Treasury Minister. | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
First, a minefield for all MPs. Expenses. There is an investigation | :31:17. | :31:25. | |
into those made by David Pleat -- David Parsons, the Conservative | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
leader of Leicestershire County Council. It relates to trips to | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
Brussels and apparently goes back five years. With me to discuss this | :31:33. | :31:40. | |
is the political reporter for BBC Radio Leicester, Eleanor Garnier. | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
This started last year. A whistleblower work sent a series of | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
letters to the leader of the county council. They sent me copies of | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
those letters. The Chief Executive ordered an internal investigation | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
which has resulted in Spain report into David Parsons's travel inspect | :32:02. | :32:11. | |
-- travel expenses back to 2006. He has been that a key used off | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
overcharging East Midlands councils. They advanced his travel expenses | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
to Brussels but he was being reimbursed by the European Union. | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
Because of that, the report is saying he was not paying the money | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
back promptly. In one ear, despite four written requests, he did not | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
make a single repayment. David Parsons says he has paid it | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
all back and blames the problem on communication difficulties between | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
the EU and East Midlands Councils. He is denying any wrongdoing and | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
said that this week he wrote a cheque at �500 to East Midlands | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
Councils. Behind closed doors, Conservative councillors a | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
Leicestershire are worried and angry about this. | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
So what happens next, will he survive as leader? | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
This report will go to the corporate governance committee on | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
Monday and I would be surprised if they simply noted the report. | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
Having had conversations with people in the council I would be | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
surprised if there was not a comment on the serious nature of | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
the allegations. This can also be referred to the standards committee | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
which looks into the code of conduct of members and their | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
behaviour. Finally, a week on Wednesday David Parsons would | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
normally be at a meeting in Brussels. Today we need to ask it | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
will he choose to does that meeting or will he be allowed to go at that | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
meeting? Find you very much, and learner. | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
Pauline, dear have any sympathy for David Parsons? | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
Expenses are a nightmare and claiming them are a nightmare. It | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
appears he does not have set pay things out and then the claim them | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
back. They are difficult and it is hard to keep on top of the man has | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
put -- and devote the time required to them. There is a lot of pressure | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
on you to get it right and you have to get it right because it is | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
public money. Do full-time politicians like MPs | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
and council leaders get enough support to run their offices? | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
That is a good question but at this point in time it is not just about | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
avoiding impropriety but avoiding the perception of impropriety. If | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
you can avoid the finances going through the bone at bided out of | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
the politician, direct payments, would be a far safer way of keeping | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
this above board. Let us talk now about this week's | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
report by the Inspectorate of Constabulary in such undercover | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
policing. 20 environmental campaigners were convicted of | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass at Ratcliffe on Soar power | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
station. The convictions were overturned amid controversy over | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
the role of undercover police officer Mark Kennedy. Pauline, the | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
Inspectorate is very critical of the extent to which Mark Kennedy | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
Ruth -- the extent to which Mark Kennedy abused his role. Should we | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
be allowing police Superintendents to sign these jobs off? | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
My understanding is that although that is the level they should be | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
signed off at, it is actually assistant chief constables to sign | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
it off. I think they should be responsible enough to sign these | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
things off and I do think undercover operations are very | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
important in the crime detection. But if an officer wants to | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
intercept a phone conversation, he or she needs the approval of the | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
Home Secretary first. It needs to go to that level. | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
Again, I think that goes too far. Chief constables should be able to | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
authorise that sort of thing. Bothering the Secretary of State | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
that everything happening in the country, I must be happening all | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
over the place, is over the top. The his undercover missions can be | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
crucial. Should he be involved? My feeling is that he should be | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
involved or they could be some independent arrangement. Keeping it | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
within the police, you need to make sure there is an approval process | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
one step removed so someone can ask questions. I think there are some | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
serious issues that have come from their us and we should probably | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
revealed how these undercover operations get uproots in future | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
because, you know, there has been a lot of concern in my constituency. | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
Pauline, for many people the most important question is should | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
embarrass a campaigners be targeted in the first place? | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
Yes, I think they should, because they were not going to act lawfully. | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
I think people should have found out what they were going to do and | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
what they were up to to try to stop civil unrest. I do believe we | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
should have undercover operations but they should be monitored. They | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
should be monitored and there should be claimed of conduct. I | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
would be very wary if an outside body was policing that. -- codes of | :37:22. | :37:32. | |
:37:32. | :37:33. | ||
conduct. They could push people suspected of being under cover to | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
do things they knew they should not He the rules for a investigating | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
people are too widely drawn, according to the reports, they | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
should focus on serious crime and serious disruption to the community. | :37:50. | :37:57. | |
This is a problem. How do we define domestic extremism? Did this really | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
merit such a long-standing undercover operation? It is | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
difficult for us to second guess that. Threats can come from all | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
sorts of different circumstances but we need a tighter definition of | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
extremism and a proper sign-off a level which is accountable. That is | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
why I feel it should be ministers signing this off. | :38:19. | :38:27. | |
Is it time for new rules, Pauline? Yes, times have changed. We have a | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
new government. We need to draw a line under that and let us look at | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
it again to make sure we get it right this time. | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
I am not sure if we should or should not have had popped -- | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
should or should not have had prosecutions in this case. There | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
will be times when we need that level of police scrutiny Bellini to | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
have safeguards for civil rights as well. | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
From one moral conundrum to another, one of our local county councils | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
has chosen to roll-out a radical scheme that helps people to invest | :39:03. | :39:10. | |
in help paint problem families and offenders. Eleanor Garnier reports. | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
Four there are 120,000 troubled families in the country, around 13 | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
hundreds a Leicestershire alone. That includes Julian, his partner | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
and his children. The government says they cost the state �eight. 8 | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
billion per year. I have had a drink problem. I have | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
had police coming round, youth offending services, social services, | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
the council. There was always somebody on the phone. I could have | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
lost my children and there was no way out for me. | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
Now the government wants to use Social Impact Bonds to fund | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
intensive help for parents like Julian. If they are successful and | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
reduce long-term dependence on the state, investors get their money | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
back and a healthy return. But they stand to lose their money if they | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
miss their targets. The government thinks it can raise | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
up to �40 million through Social Impact Bonds been trial Terry | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
Leicestershire and elsewhere in the country. | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
We wants to contact those families in a different way to the way we | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
have done up to now. We want to help them change. We feel that | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
public services had been to Silo it, too fragmented and have not given | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
enough long-term support. We were to give them that longer terms of - | :40:37. | :40:45. | |
- local longer term support. He the first social impact bond was | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
launched over a year ago as Peterborough prison, aimed at | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
cutting reoffending. It was a Labour Party idea but Ken Clarke | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
has fully embraced it. Investors in the Peterborough at scheme have put | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
�5 million into the bonds to fund his intensive rehabilitation work | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
with 3000 prisoners. If reoffending rates drop, investors get their | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
money back and a return of up to �8 million but first they must prove | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
that reoffending has dropped by at least seven. | :41:19. | :41:27. | |
5%. This is fairly uncharted territory. Week, as a funder, think | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
it is well worth exploring this because if social impacts bonds | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
work they do have the potential to unlock significant new sources of | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
finance for really important public policy issues that this country | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
faces. Although there is widespread | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
support for Social Impact Bonds at Westminster, others are more | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
sceptical. One shoe bring in private companies | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
to do very complex social work, they will inevitably cream and skim | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
and pick the easiest cases. They may also find it is much more | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
difficult than they think and demand more money from the State | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
for doing the work. In the end, it will end up being more expensive | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
and the people being held will have less money spent on them. | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
She is not the only one worried about how this will work in reality. | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
This is a complex scheme. We are not too sure, at the moment, | :42:23. | :42:29. | |
whether we will find the savings we needs to pay back the Social Impact | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
Bonds Investment. Back at home in Melton Mowbray, it | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
was not private money that transforms Julian's life but a | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
publicly funded local authority projects. | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
Who families need help. Families like mine was need help. Lottery | :42:46. | :42:54. | |
winners, businesses, anything. Anyone with money. They could help | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
and make life better for families going through hell. | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
So will these bonds work? The chief executive of the British | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
Association of Social Workers, Hilton Dawson, has joined us in the | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
studio. Julian Spong said that it does not matter where the money | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
comes from. He is absolutely right. It does not | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
matter where the money comes from but the programmes must work and | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
have a real effect. That is the crucial matter in this. That | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
includes all the public provision that is made available to him and | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
families in his situation. It started life as a Blairite idea, | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
Chris, but is this privatising the Paul? | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
I think there are a lot of people who have questions and you heard | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
Polly Toynbee in the police say it is all very well to get an | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
investment is something like a road scheme, where there is a simple | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
investment and result. But what is the methodology for it -- the | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
methodology for measuring the result in issues like this? We need | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
to get the money in from resources for all sorts of reasons. We need | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
to reduce alcoholism, reoffending, and if we can be measured and it is | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
robust, we need to try this out. That is what the pilot scheme is | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
all about. And Tim Robinson in that he's said he was worried about this | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
would work in practice but he is trailing the scheme? | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
He I think councils need to think outside the box and look at | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
innovative ways of funding it. This is a pilot scheme and we need to | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
evaluate it and see if it can be rolled out across the country. | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
There are so many families who need help and I think we have to try and | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
find a way to solve the problems and to help them have a fulfilling | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
life. They are not getting it at the moment. | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
Hilton Dawson, how would you set about measuring the success of the | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
work the investors put in here? I think I would stick to a defined | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
range of programmes, quite honestly. Here in Nottingham we have the | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
example of Graham Allen and Sabino a great deal of the evidenced based | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
programs that can help families make changes, and huge changes to | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
the lives of very young children. That is the sort of programme that | :45:25. | :45:32. | |
needs to be financed by this sort of initiative. A very clear outcome. | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
But you need to look over many years to see that? | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
We do need to stick with it. That has been one of the failings, quite | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
honestly. That is why we do not see so much success. We must not throw | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
the baby out with the bath water. A local authorities to have expertise, | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
dedicated public servants and us a real knowledge about the best way | :45:55. | :46:02. | |
of helping families and communities. Do not lose that in the process. | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
Chris, it is going to be a nightmare to prove that there is a | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
return on this? For yes, that is where I am | :46:12. | :46:20. | |
slightly anxious. These should be areas where there should be public | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
investment any way. Cuts will hit some of the key services like | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
social care and crime reduction. People will be desperate there any | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
alternative they can find but is this going to be cost-efficient? | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
That is what people will ask. And how long will investors have to | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
prove they have made savings to get a profit? | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
They need to prove they had done the work and got results. It will | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
take time. It is not a quick fix. Some families need working with for | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
a very long time. People in prisons need a lot of help because some are | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
illiterate and have never. To give them the skills get into work, | :47:02. | :47:11. | |
which is an issue with families, Cup is very difficult. It will not | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
be easy. It will not be quick. It could provide a solution and we | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
will look at innovative ones. What about the warning the from | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
Polly Toynbee that the government may end up bailing out investors? | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
It is an important point and I do think it is important that we do | :47:33. | :47:39. | |
not come for these whizz-bang ideas. If it can be measured and you can | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
be certain of that it will deliver an outcome, fine, let us try it out. | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
Mike own view is that there are no ways around that. Sometimes you | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
have to prioritise public investment. It is worth trying | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
things like this in pilot form but I would not put all my eggs in one | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
basket. Pauline, will the government not | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
bail-out investors if things do not work out? | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
I think it would be very hard to bail out investors. Investors know | :48:12. | :48:19. | |
that if you win, sometimes you do, and sometimes you lose. If they do | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
fail, I hope that is the risk they appreciate taking. That is what | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
comes when investing in any business. | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
It does sound like there is a lot the risk attached to this? | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
Yes, and there is a danger of playing safe and colluding over | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
what need to be substantial outcomes. This is not a panacea. It | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
is only a pilot. It cannot replace the very substantial levels of | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
public investments which will continue. We need to have that | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
investment in these communities. Allied to the correct programmes, | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
this could bring some real freshness into situations and some | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
real help to the families we have seen. | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
It could mean a radical change to the way we so per up -- the way we | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
approach society's problems in the future? | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
Indeed. It is a regular criticism of welfare services that sometimes | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
they prop up a problem situation is said are dealing with it. This | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
could be a way forward. Now it is time for our round-up of | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
the main political stories in the region was 60 seconds with John | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
Hess. Communities secretary Eric Pickles | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
claims Nottingham is now the only local authority which has failed to | :49:43. | :49:49. | |
list all its spending on items above �500. The city's Labour | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
leader insists it would cost more money than it is worth. | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
With Nottingham's workplace parking levy fast approaching, Boots has | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
announced it will pay half the cost to its workers. Experience is going | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
the whole hog. It has agreed to pay the lot. | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
If you want to vote in the East Midlands on whether we should stay | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
in the EU, you will have to move to Corby. 13 constituency referenda | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
are being organised by the Campaign Group the People's pledge. | :50:23. | :50:30. | |
Leicestershire is considering axing three bus travel for disabled | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
passengers before 9:30am. -- free bus travel. The council says it can | :50:34. | :50:42. | |
no longer afford to subsidise the 8000 people who will lose out. | :50:42. | :50:45. |