23/06/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands


23/06/2013

Andrew Neil and John Hess with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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new PCCs doing? And the campaign by the regions Ukrainians who want

:01:17.:01:27.
:01:27.:01:27.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2109 seconds

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tragic episode in their history who doesn't want any more powers.

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One of our Police and Crime Commissioner 's tells us he doesn't

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want to take over the other emergency services, too. I feel I've

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got my hands full. I've been asked to do this job on behalf of the

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people who live in this area. And it is a forlorn drop. The East Midlands

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community leading a campaign to get the government to recognise the

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Soviet area famine in their home country as genocide. They will come

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and they will say, where are the seeds, the potato, the flower. They

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took everything and people were starving and dying, especially

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children and elderly people. My guests this week, the Madonna

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show Conservative MP Pauline Latham and Nottingham North MP Labour's

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Graham Allen. First, let's look at the week ahead and as we've heard,

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it's been dominated by the Chancellor 's Spending Review on

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Wednesday. Pauline Latham, what would you like to hear for the East

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Midlands and for your own constituents? I'd like to see some

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investment in building works and infrastructure. That would get the

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building industry moving. It isn't moving is in still the East Midlands

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and it needs to, to create more jobs and get people off the unemployment

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register. Is that likely? We are getting whispers of some government

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departments taking some substantial hits. Local government, I think,

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will, but there are still efficiencies they could make.

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Still? They should be sharing back-office services and there's no

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need for every single... We've heard this. There is no need for Derby and

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the wash to have child services, they could share those. So they

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could do more. What do you expect, Graham? What I'd like and what I

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expect as two different things. There will be more pain, I think.

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What I'd like to see as the Troxler getting off the back of local

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government, allowing local government to do its thing, and I'd

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also like to see him implement some of the recommendations that Michael

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Heseltine put forward. So that we can build jobs that Pauline talked

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about, build the economy in our region. The government hasn't got

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the appetite for that. They are not being very successful at the moment,

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all governments, central government, this massive over centralisation

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they have in England has got to go. We've got to allow people to do what

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they need to do which is built local government and devolve power.

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They've died for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And that includes

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taxation powers? They should be local taxation powers but only when

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the referendum has agreed locally. You can't do it if the local people

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don't agree to do it. But it might make local government more

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accountable. Thank you. The new Police and Crime Commissioner is,

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the PCCs, have been in the job for six months now but they are rarely

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out of the news. The Leicester East MP Keith Vaz has secured a special

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debate tomorrow night in the Commons to throw a spotlight on concerns

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that in some areas, it's not working. What our PCCs make of it?

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In inner-city Leicester, some home truths for a police Commissioner.

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There is a bit of a phobia about police. Who has?Mothers. They are

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the public enemy. Leicestershire's PCC, it's Police and Crime

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Commissioner, wants to change those permission -- perceptions. I was

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amazed by the levels of mistrust between youngsters and the police.

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He is also having to explain his new role as PCC. Prior to the election,

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hence the low turnout, we did not excite the public about this.

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police commissioners were elected on the lowest national turnout but

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seven months since they took office, is the role making an impact on the

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people they are supposed to serve? Now they are there, why don't they

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letters know what they are doing for us? I am sure the mechanism is in

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place but he needs to be more visible. Interest groups get it.

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They understand what PCCs could and should and will do for them. Now the

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Home Office is floating the idea of devolving even more powers to the

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PCCs, such as 909 emergency services, bringing together the

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ambulance, fire and police under the control of one directly elected

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police commissioner. But this police Commissioner is not so keen, as he

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told me. All I would say is I've got my hands full. I have been asked to

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do this job on behalf of the people who live in this area and it is a

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forlorn drop. Also full on is the scrutiny of MPs. Keith Vaz and his

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committee exposed early PCC crises, such as in Lincolnshire, where the

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commission suspended his chief constable. A judge has described the

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decision you took as perverse and irrational. I accept entirely the

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High Court judge's criticism. issue is the government says we have

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to wait another three and a half years for the electorate to decide.

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We think that the best way in which you can scrutinise is for the police

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and the panels to be doing their job as effectively as possible. When you

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set up a new organisation or a new set of initiatives, you need to

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allow them to settle and you allow them to work. You allow judgements

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to be made about whether or not it needs tweaking a bit. But for many

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MPs, tweaking the scrutiny of our police commissioners looks set to be

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the priority now. Joining me to discuss all of that is

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the Lincolnshire Police Commissioner, Alan Hardwick. Let's

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be honest, you had a grilling therefrom Keith Vaz. I did in the

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clip you showed. I agreed with the High Court judge. There was about to

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that. Or rather I heard what he said and I didn't agree with him. Our

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disagreement was based on an interpretation of a very, very small

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point of law. But now the chief constable has been reinstated, the

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chair of your scrutiny panel quipped. You've got a payment to

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find for the legal proceedings. It's not the ideal start to your period

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in office. What would people have me do? The people of Lincolnshire need

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to be open and transparent, that is my job. In the private sector, a

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suspension happens every day. It happens all the time, within police

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forces it does as well. I didn't look for this confrontation. I

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didn't look for the original complaint. The confrontation I

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didn't seek. It was forced upon me. What is going on now? What do you

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mean? Do have a good relationship with your chief constable? We do.

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Lincolnshire is being policed effectively. It is a gold standard

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for many forces. Financially as well. In what way is it a gold

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standard? The gold standard applies financially. Apart from the fact

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that we have a highly efficient and effective force. Let's touch on that

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gold standard. You probably don't want to hear from him again but here

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it -- here is Keith Vaz and his concerns about police

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commissioners. Lincolnshire has been a concern, the way in which the

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chief constable has been really moved and then reinstated by the

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court. The commissioner then saying that he would be gone in days and he

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is still there. We are concerned about Kent. In Northamptonshire,

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mems of the committee expressed concern at some of the political

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nature of the appointment. As they've done in Yorkshire and other

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parts of the country. There seems to be a very few areas that have

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escaped public interest in what is going on.

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Is Keith Vaz right? Are these teething problems inevitable?

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Absolutely they are. The role of Police and Crime Commissioner was

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introduced hastily by the government, it wasn't thought

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through properly. The elections were held in the middle of winter, there

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was a low turnout, but not in Lincolnshire because we had more

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than 15%. -- 50%. Any organisation as powerful as ours needs time to

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bed in. Time to bed in, but Pauline Latham, hasty. I think we could have

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chosen a better time of year to have the elections and if we could have

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done the same time as the County Council elections. . That didn't

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happen, though. That was a mistake. What about devolving even more

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powers to the PCC? The people in the jobs were elected to look after the

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police. I do have a concern that it would make too big a job. If you

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have police, ambulance and fire, certainly East Midlands Ambulance

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Service is a huge job, so what do you do? Break it down into different

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counties? Wouldn't benefit from it elected politician to run it?

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with the police and with the fire service as well. Graham, you are

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Rachubka directed elected politicians running important

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services, what do you think of greater devolution? I am a great

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advocate of election. Having somebody who the people elected to

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do these jobs is first class. It was introduced in a poor way, doing it

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in the middle of winter without publicity, without giving the

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candidates enough money to express their views. Is it working?I think

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it will improve and democracy works. What doesn't work is select

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committee chairman sticking their nose in and telling people what they

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are doing. Is that what Keith Vaz is doing? I think the select committee

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was interested in this issue, but I think the public and the people who

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elect or deselect Police and Crime Commissioner is, that is the weight

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should be, and we have a good one in Nottinghamshire. These Police and

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Crime Commissioner is, they are doing very good work. For example,

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the stuff happening on crime prevention, getting out and about.

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Our PCC appears at meetings all over the place. That is what you need.

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Keith Vaz says as far as he's concerned, what police commissioners

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do is a mystery to him. It may be to him, but it isn't the people of

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Lincolnshire and it isn't to the people represented by my fellow

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PCCs. Would you like to see more powers devolved to your office?

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the Home Secretary decides that is going to happen, then it will

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happen. I will be the first to say that this is more than a full-time

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job. It is about 70 hours a week. Maybe there is a synergy between the

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fire service and the police service, but I wouldn't go so far as to say a

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Commissioner could take on the health service as well. It is a

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totally different case. Ireland interviewing you before the election

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in November and you talked about transferring powers back to the

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police in Lincolnshire. -- I remember interviewing you. That is

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not likely to happen now, is it? I said, in Lincolnshire, and I have

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an announcement to make tomorrow about finances, in Lincolnshire,

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because of the way we have managed our finances, I am one of the few

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commissioners who can look forward to the future financially with some

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confidence. Look forward in confidence? OK. Now, you have Alan

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Charles as your Commissioner. If you are writing his report card, what

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would you say? He has been pretty invisible and I've never seen him at

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anything. I don't know what he's been doing at all. I suspect we will

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lose funding in areas where we have had funding in the past, and I don't

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think there is going to be funding in certain areas. What are you doing

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to ensure that doesn't happen? not doing anything in Parliament

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because we don't have a role. That is except the select committee, that

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is Keith Vaz. Then full government said stuff up and they poke their

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nose in. It is the health service, the education service, the PCCs.

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We've elected these people, give them the chance to get on and prove

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they can do their job opening. you encouraged by that? Absolutely

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right. I am elected by the people of Lincolnshire, I am accountable to

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them. Other people can scrutinise what I do, I dithered for the people

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of Lincolnshire. Thank you very much. -- I do it for the people.

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campaign has started in is Midlands to persuade the government recognise

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one of the worst famines in history as genocide. Millions of people died

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in the Ukraine in the 1930s when the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin first

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-- forced through the collectivisation of farms. The

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Ukrainian community here wants recognition of the famine. Des

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Coleman went to the Ukrainian Centre in Derby to find out more and to get

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It is incredible, isn't it? These young Ukrainians are dancing to keep

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alive a part of their culture. When they're not dancing, their

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campaigning to keep alive a tragic The dancers may have been born and

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bred in Derby but they want to keep their heritage arrive. They know

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what happened in the Ukraine during what they call the Holodomor.

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Holodomor is basically two things. It means starvation. And suffering

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to kill. The Holodomor signifies the Ukrainian tragic famine. It happened

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in 1933. Up to 10 million people died. A third of them children.

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Maddie was brought up in the Ukraine under the Soviets and she remembers

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the stories down through the family. The Soviets came. They would take

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everything. My mum would tell me that they would come and they would

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say, all the seed, potatoes, flour, they took everything. And people

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were starving, and dying, especially children and elderly people. In the

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UK especially, the government hasn't yet recognised, whereas throughout

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the world, Canada, Australia, the United States, they recognise it. So

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if those countries recognise it, why can't the UK? For me, they don't

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want to upset the current Russian government because it is all

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politics. To me, that is wrong. people here want to see what

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happened officially recognised as genocide. And now the case has been

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raised in Parliament. The purpose of this debate today is to call on the

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United Kingdom government to a officially in recognise the dreadful

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and tragic part of Ukraine's history as genocide. In reply to Pauline

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Latham, the government said it recognised the horror of what

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happened in the UK -- Ukraine but it's hands were tied. The Holodomor

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predated the establishment of the concept of genocide in international

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law. And it was not drafted to apply specifically. So, a cool reception

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from the government. Nothing cool about the reception you get here,

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though. I think I'm going to have a Des has been struggling to walk ever

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since then! On a more serious note, this may have seemed to have

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happened a long time ago, but as we have seen in the report, it is very

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much a live is used for the Ukrainians. It is and I've had a lot

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to do with the Ukrainian community in Derby. And they feel very

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strongly about the fact it has never been recognised as a genocide. It

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clearly was, from all the reports through various journalists that

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came out and people who lived through it, it was a genocide. It is

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very disappointing that we are not going to recognise it. Let's bring

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you up-to-date. Are you disappointed by the government is rather

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legalistic approach? I am. To say there was a United Nations

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Convention in 1948 that recognises them, and this happened before then,

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so did the Holocaust, but we recognise that. The British

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government worried about Putin and the Kremlin? There might be an

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element of that. Which is pointing. It is history. It is a very sad

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thing if we can't recognise history. It is very sad for those Ukrainian

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to our fantastic citizens of this country, they want some recognition.

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And many Commonwealth countries to recognise it as a genocide.

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Australia, Canada, even the USA. Graham, you've got a number of

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Ukrainians in your constituency. is a genocide, it should be

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recognised as such. Let's also look at places like reminder and

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Yugoslavia. This happens in a lot of places. -- Rwanda and Yugoslavia. In

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Derbyshire, working people were hung on the steps of the courthouse, both

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in Derby and Nottinghamshire, for having the temerity to demand the

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vote, so we should all remember our history and learn from it. That has

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been recognised as a genocide. Just because this was before 1948, it

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still should be recognised. Where do we go from here? Some fairly heavy

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duty lobbying still. I will continue to do that and work with the

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all-party Parliamentary group because I was talking to John

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Whittingdale last week about it and he is still lobbying and trying to

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get it so we will not give up. far do you go with this? There are

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other areas that might be regarded as genocide, the treatment of Native

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Americans, the treatment of aborigines, and even the Irish

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potato famine. Yes, but they were not genocide in the same way this

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was a deliberate man-made genocide and famine. They didn't just take

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all the seats, they took all the grain, they got rid of all the

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animals. People had nothing to eat except bark from trees, leaves, and

:56:01.:56:07.

the odd woodland animal. Birds were killed, everything was killed.

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the United Nations, so it is when they introduce this illegal

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demolition -- when they introduce this legal definition of genocide.

:56:15.:56:21.

So the government is right. But we have a duty to nurture our

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democracy. We have to make sure that we'd be -- we are vigilant about our

:56:30.:56:40.
:56:40.:56:42.

democracy. We have some sort of inoculation against dictators, but

:56:42.:56:47.

we must watch out. What are the Ukrainian community say? Aspect of

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the ambassador after the debate and he was encouraged by the words used

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by the Minister, but they were words and not actions. What we would like

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is action and I am visiting them in the summer. I will have a longer

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discussion with them then. Time for a round-up of some of the other

:57:03.:57:13.
:57:13.:57:15.

political stories in the East Ken Clarke has spoken out again in

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favour of Britain staying in the European Union. In an article in the

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daily Telegraph, the Conservative MP said it would damage the UK if we

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left. The decision to grant a train building contract to Siemens rather

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than bombard your has been question -- question. The government

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confirmed the deal this week but the Labour MP is calling for an

:57:41.:57:43.

independent review. Three independent councillors have joined

:57:43.:57:49.

UKIP after being warned by the police about their alleged

:57:49.:57:52.

harassment the council's Chief Executive. They claim they are being

:57:52.:57:57.

harassed or by asking awkward questions. Threats that we shouldn't

:57:57.:58:01.

be asking these questions, threats we shouldn't be going about our

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business is councillors, and they are coming from the police and they

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are unfounded threats. The County Council says the move is justified

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because the three councillors have continued to cause distress to its

:58:12.:58:22.
:58:22.:58:24.

chief consecutive -- Chief Ken Clarke's pro-EU 's speech, was

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it helpful? You wanted to be an EU MP. I am a Euro-sceptic. He has come

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in at this particular time and I'm disappointed. We will have a

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referendum, we have a bill going through in the near future, and I

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think we need to wait for that now. Do you think we are likely to hear

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far more pro-European speeches, because we haven't had a lot of

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them. There is a likelihood of a very severe split inside the

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Conservative Party, with even more people going. I think we are OK at

:58:57.:59:01.

the moment but UKIP is a new phenomenon. That will put stresses

:59:01.:59:05.

and strains. It will stress out the coalition. I can see a number of

:59:05.:59:10.

members of Parliament leaving the Conservative Party. And the

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referendum? It depends what the terms are and we need the

:59:15.:59:19.

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