23/06/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands


Andrew Neil and John Hess with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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new PCCs doing? And the campaign by the regions Ukrainians who want


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tragic episode in their history who doesn't want any more powers.


One of our Police and Crime Commissioner 's tells us he doesn't


want to take over the other emergency services, too. I feel I've


got my hands full. I've been asked to do this job on behalf of the


people who live in this area. And it is a forlorn drop. The East Midlands


community leading a campaign to get the government to recognise the


Soviet area famine in their home country as genocide. They will come


and they will say, where are the seeds, the potato, the flower. They


took everything and people were starving and dying, especially


children and elderly people. My guests this week, the Madonna


show Conservative MP Pauline Latham and Nottingham North MP Labour's


Graham Allen. First, let's look at the week ahead and as we've heard,


it's been dominated by the Chancellor 's Spending Review on


Wednesday. Pauline Latham, what would you like to hear for the East


Midlands and for your own constituents? I'd like to see some


investment in building works and infrastructure. That would get the


building industry moving. It isn't moving is in still the East Midlands


and it needs to, to create more jobs and get people off the unemployment


register. Is that likely? We are getting whispers of some government


departments taking some substantial hits. Local government, I think,


will, but there are still efficiencies they could make.


Still? They should be sharing back-office services and there's no


need for every single... We've heard this. There is no need for Derby and


the wash to have child services, they could share those. So they


could do more. What do you expect, Graham? What I'd like and what I


expect as two different things. There will be more pain, I think.


What I'd like to see as the Troxler getting off the back of local


government, allowing local government to do its thing, and I'd


also like to see him implement some of the recommendations that Michael


Heseltine put forward. So that we can build jobs that Pauline talked


about, build the economy in our region. The government hasn't got


the appetite for that. They are not being very successful at the moment,


all governments, central government, this massive over centralisation


they have in England has got to go. We've got to allow people to do what


they need to do which is built local government and devolve power.


They've died for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And that includes


taxation powers? They should be local taxation powers but only when


the referendum has agreed locally. You can't do it if the local people


don't agree to do it. But it might make local government more


accountable. Thank you. The new Police and Crime Commissioner is,


the PCCs, have been in the job for six months now but they are rarely


out of the news. The Leicester East MP Keith Vaz has secured a special


debate tomorrow night in the Commons to throw a spotlight on concerns


that in some areas, it's not working. What our PCCs make of it?


In inner-city Leicester, some home truths for a police Commissioner.


There is a bit of a phobia about police. Who has?Mothers. They are


the public enemy. Leicestershire's PCC, it's Police and Crime


Commissioner, wants to change those permission -- perceptions. I was


amazed by the levels of mistrust between youngsters and the police.


He is also having to explain his new role as PCC. Prior to the election,


hence the low turnout, we did not excite the public about this.


police commissioners were elected on the lowest national turnout but


seven months since they took office, is the role making an impact on the


people they are supposed to serve? Now they are there, why don't they


letters know what they are doing for us? I am sure the mechanism is in


place but he needs to be more visible. Interest groups get it.


They understand what PCCs could and should and will do for them. Now the


Home Office is floating the idea of devolving even more powers to the


PCCs, such as 909 emergency services, bringing together the


ambulance, fire and police under the control of one directly elected


police commissioner. But this police Commissioner is not so keen, as he


told me. All I would say is I've got my hands full. I have been asked to


do this job on behalf of the people who live in this area and it is a


forlorn drop. Also full on is the scrutiny of MPs. Keith Vaz and his


committee exposed early PCC crises, such as in Lincolnshire, where the


commission suspended his chief constable. A judge has described the


decision you took as perverse and irrational. I accept entirely the


High Court judge's criticism. issue is the government says we have


to wait another three and a half years for the electorate to decide.


We think that the best way in which you can scrutinise is for the police


and the panels to be doing their job as effectively as possible. When you


set up a new organisation or a new set of initiatives, you need to


allow them to settle and you allow them to work. You allow judgements


to be made about whether or not it needs tweaking a bit. But for many


MPs, tweaking the scrutiny of our police commissioners looks set to be


the priority now. Joining me to discuss all of that is


the Lincolnshire Police Commissioner, Alan Hardwick. Let's


be honest, you had a grilling therefrom Keith Vaz. I did in the


clip you showed. I agreed with the High Court judge. There was about to


that. Or rather I heard what he said and I didn't agree with him. Our


disagreement was based on an interpretation of a very, very small


point of law. But now the chief constable has been reinstated, the


chair of your scrutiny panel quipped. You've got a payment to


find for the legal proceedings. It's not the ideal start to your period


in office. What would people have me do? The people of Lincolnshire need


to be open and transparent, that is my job. In the private sector, a


suspension happens every day. It happens all the time, within police


forces it does as well. I didn't look for this confrontation. I


didn't look for the original complaint. The confrontation I


didn't seek. It was forced upon me. What is going on now? What do you


mean? Do have a good relationship with your chief constable? We do.


Lincolnshire is being policed effectively. It is a gold standard


for many forces. Financially as well. In what way is it a gold


standard? The gold standard applies financially. Apart from the fact


that we have a highly efficient and effective force. Let's touch on that


gold standard. You probably don't want to hear from him again but here


it -- here is Keith Vaz and his concerns about police


commissioners. Lincolnshire has been a concern, the way in which the


chief constable has been really moved and then reinstated by the


court. The commissioner then saying that he would be gone in days and he


is still there. We are concerned about Kent. In Northamptonshire,


mems of the committee expressed concern at some of the political


nature of the appointment. As they've done in Yorkshire and other


parts of the country. There seems to be a very few areas that have


escaped public interest in what is going on.


Is Keith Vaz right? Are these teething problems inevitable?


Absolutely they are. The role of Police and Crime Commissioner was


introduced hastily by the government, it wasn't thought


through properly. The elections were held in the middle of winter, there


was a low turnout, but not in Lincolnshire because we had more


than 15%. -- 50%. Any organisation as powerful as ours needs time to


bed in. Time to bed in, but Pauline Latham, hasty. I think we could have


chosen a better time of year to have the elections and if we could have


done the same time as the County Council elections. . That didn't


happen, though. That was a mistake. What about devolving even more


powers to the PCC? The people in the jobs were elected to look after the


police. I do have a concern that it would make too big a job. If you


have police, ambulance and fire, certainly East Midlands Ambulance


Service is a huge job, so what do you do? Break it down into different


counties? Wouldn't benefit from it elected politician to run it?


with the police and with the fire service as well. Graham, you are


Rachubka directed elected politicians running important


services, what do you think of greater devolution? I am a great


advocate of election. Having somebody who the people elected to


do these jobs is first class. It was introduced in a poor way, doing it


in the middle of winter without publicity, without giving the


candidates enough money to express their views. Is it working?I think


it will improve and democracy works. What doesn't work is select


committee chairman sticking their nose in and telling people what they


are doing. Is that what Keith Vaz is doing? I think the select committee


was interested in this issue, but I think the public and the people who


elect or deselect Police and Crime Commissioner is, that is the weight


should be, and we have a good one in Nottinghamshire. These Police and


Crime Commissioner is, they are doing very good work. For example,


the stuff happening on crime prevention, getting out and about.


Our PCC appears at meetings all over the place. That is what you need.


Keith Vaz says as far as he's concerned, what police commissioners


do is a mystery to him. It may be to him, but it isn't the people of


Lincolnshire and it isn't to the people represented by my fellow


PCCs. Would you like to see more powers devolved to your office?


the Home Secretary decides that is going to happen, then it will


happen. I will be the first to say that this is more than a full-time


job. It is about 70 hours a week. Maybe there is a synergy between the


fire service and the police service, but I wouldn't go so far as to say a


Commissioner could take on the health service as well. It is a


totally different case. Ireland interviewing you before the election


in November and you talked about transferring powers back to the


police in Lincolnshire. -- I remember interviewing you. That is


not likely to happen now, is it? I said, in Lincolnshire, and I have


an announcement to make tomorrow about finances, in Lincolnshire,


because of the way we have managed our finances, I am one of the few


commissioners who can look forward to the future financially with some


confidence. Look forward in confidence? OK. Now, you have Alan


Charles as your Commissioner. If you are writing his report card, what


would you say? He has been pretty invisible and I've never seen him at


anything. I don't know what he's been doing at all. I suspect we will


lose funding in areas where we have had funding in the past, and I don't


think there is going to be funding in certain areas. What are you doing


to ensure that doesn't happen? not doing anything in Parliament


because we don't have a role. That is except the select committee, that


is Keith Vaz. Then full government said stuff up and they poke their


nose in. It is the health service, the education service, the PCCs.


We've elected these people, give them the chance to get on and prove


they can do their job opening. you encouraged by that? Absolutely


right. I am elected by the people of Lincolnshire, I am accountable to


them. Other people can scrutinise what I do, I dithered for the people


of Lincolnshire. Thank you very much. -- I do it for the people.


campaign has started in is Midlands to persuade the government recognise


one of the worst famines in history as genocide. Millions of people died


in the Ukraine in the 1930s when the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin first


-- forced through the collectivisation of farms. The


Ukrainian community here wants recognition of the famine. Des


Coleman went to the Ukrainian Centre in Derby to find out more and to get


It is incredible, isn't it? These young Ukrainians are dancing to keep


alive a part of their culture. When they're not dancing, their


campaigning to keep alive a tragic The dancers may have been born and


bred in Derby but they want to keep their heritage arrive. They know


what happened in the Ukraine during what they call the Holodomor.


Holodomor is basically two things. It means starvation. And suffering


to kill. The Holodomor signifies the Ukrainian tragic famine. It happened


in 1933. Up to 10 million people died. A third of them children.


Maddie was brought up in the Ukraine under the Soviets and she remembers


the stories down through the family. The Soviets came. They would take


everything. My mum would tell me that they would come and they would


say, all the seed, potatoes, flour, they took everything. And people


were starving, and dying, especially children and elderly people. In the


UK especially, the government hasn't yet recognised, whereas throughout


the world, Canada, Australia, the United States, they recognise it. So


if those countries recognise it, why can't the UK? For me, they don't


want to upset the current Russian government because it is all


politics. To me, that is wrong. people here want to see what


happened officially recognised as genocide. And now the case has been


raised in Parliament. The purpose of this debate today is to call on the


United Kingdom government to a officially in recognise the dreadful


and tragic part of Ukraine's history as genocide. In reply to Pauline


Latham, the government said it recognised the horror of what


happened in the UK -- Ukraine but it's hands were tied. The Holodomor


predated the establishment of the concept of genocide in international


law. And it was not drafted to apply specifically. So, a cool reception


from the government. Nothing cool about the reception you get here,


though. I think I'm going to have a Des has been struggling to walk ever


since then! On a more serious note, this may have seemed to have


happened a long time ago, but as we have seen in the report, it is very


much a live is used for the Ukrainians. It is and I've had a lot


to do with the Ukrainian community in Derby. And they feel very


strongly about the fact it has never been recognised as a genocide. It


clearly was, from all the reports through various journalists that


came out and people who lived through it, it was a genocide. It is


very disappointing that we are not going to recognise it. Let's bring


you up-to-date. Are you disappointed by the government is rather


legalistic approach? I am. To say there was a United Nations


Convention in 1948 that recognises them, and this happened before then,


so did the Holocaust, but we recognise that. The British


government worried about Putin and the Kremlin? There might be an


element of that. Which is pointing. It is history. It is a very sad


thing if we can't recognise history. It is very sad for those Ukrainian


to our fantastic citizens of this country, they want some recognition.


And many Commonwealth countries to recognise it as a genocide.


Australia, Canada, even the USA. Graham, you've got a number of


Ukrainians in your constituency. is a genocide, it should be


recognised as such. Let's also look at places like reminder and


Yugoslavia. This happens in a lot of places. -- Rwanda and Yugoslavia. In


Derbyshire, working people were hung on the steps of the courthouse, both


in Derby and Nottinghamshire, for having the temerity to demand the


vote, so we should all remember our history and learn from it. That has


been recognised as a genocide. Just because this was before 1948, it


still should be recognised. Where do we go from here? Some fairly heavy


duty lobbying still. I will continue to do that and work with the


all-party Parliamentary group because I was talking to John


Whittingdale last week about it and he is still lobbying and trying to


get it so we will not give up. far do you go with this? There are


other areas that might be regarded as genocide, the treatment of Native


Americans, the treatment of aborigines, and even the Irish


potato famine. Yes, but they were not genocide in the same way this


was a deliberate man-made genocide and famine. They didn't just take


all the seats, they took all the grain, they got rid of all the


animals. People had nothing to eat except bark from trees, leaves, and


the odd woodland animal. Birds were killed, everything was killed.


the United Nations, so it is when they introduce this illegal


demolition -- when they introduce this legal definition of genocide.


So the government is right. But we have a duty to nurture our


democracy. We have to make sure that we'd be -- we are vigilant about our


democracy. We have some sort of inoculation against dictators, but


we must watch out. What are the Ukrainian community say? Aspect of


the ambassador after the debate and he was encouraged by the words used


by the Minister, but they were words and not actions. What we would like


is action and I am visiting them in the summer. I will have a longer


discussion with them then. Time for a round-up of some of the other


political stories in the East Ken Clarke has spoken out again in


favour of Britain staying in the European Union. In an article in the


daily Telegraph, the Conservative MP said it would damage the UK if we


left. The decision to grant a train building contract to Siemens rather


than bombard your has been question -- question. The government


confirmed the deal this week but the Labour MP is calling for an


independent review. Three independent councillors have joined


UKIP after being warned by the police about their alleged


harassment the council's Chief Executive. They claim they are being


harassed or by asking awkward questions. Threats that we shouldn't


be asking these questions, threats we shouldn't be going about our


business is councillors, and they are coming from the police and they


are unfounded threats. The County Council says the move is justified


because the three councillors have continued to cause distress to its


chief consecutive -- Chief Ken Clarke's pro-EU 's speech, was


it helpful? You wanted to be an EU MP. I am a Euro-sceptic. He has come


in at this particular time and I'm disappointed. We will have a


referendum, we have a bill going through in the near future, and I


think we need to wait for that now. Do you think we are likely to hear


far more pro-European speeches, because we haven't had a lot of


them. There is a likelihood of a very severe split inside the


Conservative Party, with even more people going. I think we are OK at


the moment but UKIP is a new phenomenon. That will put stresses


and strains. It will stress out the coalition. I can see a number of


members of Parliament leaving the Conservative Party. And the


referendum? It depends what the terms are and we need the


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