23/06/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands

new PCCs doing? And the campaign by the regions Ukrainians who want

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2109 seconds

tragic episode in their history who doesn't want any more powers.

One of our Police and Crime Commissioner 's tells us he doesn't

want to take over the other emergency services, too. I feel I've

got my hands full. I've been asked to do this job on behalf of the

people who live in this area. And it is a forlorn drop. The East Midlands

community leading a campaign to get the government to recognise the

Soviet area famine in their home country as genocide. They will come

and they will say, where are the seeds, the potato, the flower. They

took everything and people were starving and dying, especially

children and elderly people. My guests this week, the Madonna

show Conservative MP Pauline Latham and Nottingham North MP Labour's

Graham Allen. First, let's look at the week ahead and as we've heard,

it's been dominated by the Chancellor 's Spending Review on

Wednesday. Pauline Latham, what would you like to hear for the East

Midlands and for your own constituents? I'd like to see some

investment in building works and infrastructure. That would get the

building industry moving. It isn't moving is in still the East Midlands

and it needs to, to create more jobs and get people off the unemployment

register. Is that likely? We are getting whispers of some government

departments taking some substantial hits. Local government, I think,

will, but there are still efficiencies they could make.

Still? They should be sharing back-office services and there's no

need for every single... We've heard this. There is no need for Derby and

the wash to have child services, they could share those. So they

could do more. What do you expect, Graham? What I'd like and what I

expect as two different things. There will be more pain, I think.

What I'd like to see as the Troxler getting off the back of local

government, allowing local government to do its thing, and I'd

also like to see him implement some of the recommendations that Michael

Heseltine put forward. So that we can build jobs that Pauline talked

about, build the economy in our region. The government hasn't got

the appetite for that. They are not being very successful at the moment,

all governments, central government, this massive over centralisation

they have in England has got to go. We've got to allow people to do what

they need to do which is built local government and devolve power.

They've died for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And that includes

taxation powers? They should be local taxation powers but only when

the referendum has agreed locally. You can't do it if the local people

don't agree to do it. But it might make local government more

accountable. Thank you. The new Police and Crime Commissioner is,

the PCCs, have been in the job for six months now but they are rarely

out of the news. The Leicester East MP Keith Vaz has secured a special

debate tomorrow night in the Commons to throw a spotlight on concerns

that in some areas, it's not working. What our PCCs make of it?

In inner-city Leicester, some home truths for a police Commissioner.

There is a bit of a phobia about police. Who has?Mothers. They are

the public enemy. Leicestershire's PCC, it's Police and Crime

Commissioner, wants to change those permission -- perceptions. I was

amazed by the levels of mistrust between youngsters and the police.

He is also having to explain his new role as PCC. Prior to the election,

hence the low turnout, we did not excite the public about this.

police commissioners were elected on the lowest national turnout but

seven months since they took office, is the role making an impact on the

people they are supposed to serve? Now they are there, why don't they

letters know what they are doing for us? I am sure the mechanism is in

place but he needs to be more visible. Interest groups get it.

They understand what PCCs could and should and will do for them. Now the

Home Office is floating the idea of devolving even more powers to the

PCCs, such as 909 emergency services, bringing together the

ambulance, fire and police under the control of one directly elected

police commissioner. But this police Commissioner is not so keen, as he

told me. All I would say is I've got my hands full. I have been asked to

do this job on behalf of the people who live in this area and it is a

forlorn drop. Also full on is the scrutiny of MPs. Keith Vaz and his

committee exposed early PCC crises, such as in Lincolnshire, where the

commission suspended his chief constable. A judge has described the

decision you took as perverse and irrational. I accept entirely the

High Court judge's criticism. issue is the government says we have

to wait another three and a half years for the electorate to decide.

We think that the best way in which you can scrutinise is for the police

and the panels to be doing their job as effectively as possible. When you

set up a new organisation or a new set of initiatives, you need to

allow them to settle and you allow them to work. You allow judgements

to be made about whether or not it needs tweaking a bit. But for many

MPs, tweaking the scrutiny of our police commissioners looks set to be

the priority now. Joining me to discuss all of that is

the Lincolnshire Police Commissioner, Alan Hardwick. Let's

be honest, you had a grilling therefrom Keith Vaz. I did in the

clip you showed. I agreed with the High Court judge. There was about to

that. Or rather I heard what he said and I didn't agree with him. Our

disagreement was based on an interpretation of a very, very small

point of law. But now the chief constable has been reinstated, the

chair of your scrutiny panel quipped. You've got a payment to

find for the legal proceedings. It's not the ideal start to your period

in office. What would people have me do? The people of Lincolnshire need

to be open and transparent, that is my job. In the private sector, a

suspension happens every day. It happens all the time, within police

forces it does as well. I didn't look for this confrontation. I

didn't look for the original complaint. The confrontation I

didn't seek. It was forced upon me. What is going on now? What do you

mean? Do have a good relationship with your chief constable? We do.

Lincolnshire is being policed effectively. It is a gold standard

for many forces. Financially as well. In what way is it a gold

standard? The gold standard applies financially. Apart from the fact

that we have a highly efficient and effective force. Let's touch on that

gold standard. You probably don't want to hear from him again but here

it -- here is Keith Vaz and his concerns about police

commissioners. Lincolnshire has been a concern, the way in which the

chief constable has been really moved and then reinstated by the

court. The commissioner then saying that he would be gone in days and he

is still there. We are concerned about Kent. In Northamptonshire,

mems of the committee expressed concern at some of the political

nature of the appointment. As they've done in Yorkshire and other

parts of the country. There seems to be a very few areas that have

escaped public interest in what is going on.

Is Keith Vaz right? Are these teething problems inevitable?

Absolutely they are. The role of Police and Crime Commissioner was

introduced hastily by the government, it wasn't thought

through properly. The elections were held in the middle of winter, there

was a low turnout, but not in Lincolnshire because we had more

than 15%. -- 50%. Any organisation as powerful as ours needs time to

bed in. Time to bed in, but Pauline Latham, hasty. I think we could have

chosen a better time of year to have the elections and if we could have

done the same time as the County Council elections. . That didn't

happen, though. That was a mistake. What about devolving even more

powers to the PCC? The people in the jobs were elected to look after the

police. I do have a concern that it would make too big a job. If you

have police, ambulance and fire, certainly East Midlands Ambulance

Service is a huge job, so what do you do? Break it down into different

counties? Wouldn't benefit from it elected politician to run it?

with the police and with the fire service as well. Graham, you are

Rachubka directed elected politicians running important

services, what do you think of greater devolution? I am a great

advocate of election. Having somebody who the people elected to

do these jobs is first class. It was introduced in a poor way, doing it

in the middle of winter without publicity, without giving the

candidates enough money to express their views. Is it working?I think

it will improve and democracy works. What doesn't work is select

committee chairman sticking their nose in and telling people what they

are doing. Is that what Keith Vaz is doing? I think the select committee

was interested in this issue, but I think the public and the people who

elect or deselect Police and Crime Commissioner is, that is the weight

should be, and we have a good one in Nottinghamshire. These Police and

Crime Commissioner is, they are doing very good work. For example,

the stuff happening on crime prevention, getting out and about.

Our PCC appears at meetings all over the place. That is what you need.

Keith Vaz says as far as he's concerned, what police commissioners

do is a mystery to him. It may be to him, but it isn't the people of

Lincolnshire and it isn't to the people represented by my fellow

PCCs. Would you like to see more powers devolved to your office?

the Home Secretary decides that is going to happen, then it will

happen. I will be the first to say that this is more than a full-time

job. It is about 70 hours a week. Maybe there is a synergy between the

fire service and the police service, but I wouldn't go so far as to say a

Commissioner could take on the health service as well. It is a

totally different case. Ireland interviewing you before the election

in November and you talked about transferring powers back to the

police in Lincolnshire. -- I remember interviewing you. That is

not likely to happen now, is it? I said, in Lincolnshire, and I have

an announcement to make tomorrow about finances, in Lincolnshire,

because of the way we have managed our finances, I am one of the few

commissioners who can look forward to the future financially with some

confidence. Look forward in confidence? OK. Now, you have Alan

Charles as your Commissioner. If you are writing his report card, what

would you say? He has been pretty invisible and I've never seen him at

anything. I don't know what he's been doing at all. I suspect we will

lose funding in areas where we have had funding in the past, and I don't

think there is going to be funding in certain areas. What are you doing

to ensure that doesn't happen? not doing anything in Parliament

because we don't have a role. That is except the select committee, that

is Keith Vaz. Then full government said stuff up and they poke their

nose in. It is the health service, the education service, the PCCs.

We've elected these people, give them the chance to get on and prove

they can do their job opening. you encouraged by that? Absolutely

right. I am elected by the people of Lincolnshire, I am accountable to

them. Other people can scrutinise what I do, I dithered for the people

of Lincolnshire. Thank you very much. -- I do it for the people.

campaign has started in is Midlands to persuade the government recognise

one of the worst famines in history as genocide. Millions of people died

in the Ukraine in the 1930s when the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin first

-- forced through the collectivisation of farms. The

Ukrainian community here wants recognition of the famine. Des

Coleman went to the Ukrainian Centre in Derby to find out more and to get

It is incredible, isn't it? These young Ukrainians are dancing to keep

alive a part of their culture. When they're not dancing, their

campaigning to keep alive a tragic The dancers may have been born and

bred in Derby but they want to keep their heritage arrive. They know

what happened in the Ukraine during what they call the Holodomor.

Holodomor is basically two things. It means starvation. And suffering

to kill. The Holodomor signifies the Ukrainian tragic famine. It happened

in 1933. Up to 10 million people died. A third of them children.

Maddie was brought up in the Ukraine under the Soviets and she remembers

the stories down through the family. The Soviets came. They would take

everything. My mum would tell me that they would come and they would

say, all the seed, potatoes, flour, they took everything. And people

were starving, and dying, especially children and elderly people. In the

UK especially, the government hasn't yet recognised, whereas throughout

the world, Canada, Australia, the United States, they recognise it. So

if those countries recognise it, why can't the UK? For me, they don't

want to upset the current Russian government because it is all

politics. To me, that is wrong. people here want to see what

happened officially recognised as genocide. And now the case has been

raised in Parliament. The purpose of this debate today is to call on the

United Kingdom government to a officially in recognise the dreadful

and tragic part of Ukraine's history as genocide. In reply to Pauline

Latham, the government said it recognised the horror of what

happened in the UK -- Ukraine but it's hands were tied. The Holodomor

predated the establishment of the concept of genocide in international

law. And it was not drafted to apply specifically. So, a cool reception

from the government. Nothing cool about the reception you get here,

though. I think I'm going to have a Des has been struggling to walk ever

since then! On a more serious note, this may have seemed to have

happened a long time ago, but as we have seen in the report, it is very

much a live is used for the Ukrainians. It is and I've had a lot

to do with the Ukrainian community in Derby. And they feel very

strongly about the fact it has never been recognised as a genocide. It

clearly was, from all the reports through various journalists that

came out and people who lived through it, it was a genocide. It is

very disappointing that we are not going to recognise it. Let's bring

you up-to-date. Are you disappointed by the government is rather

legalistic approach? I am. To say there was a United Nations

Convention in 1948 that recognises them, and this happened before then,

so did the Holocaust, but we recognise that. The British

government worried about Putin and the Kremlin? There might be an

element of that. Which is pointing. It is history. It is a very sad

thing if we can't recognise history. It is very sad for those Ukrainian

to our fantastic citizens of this country, they want some recognition.

And many Commonwealth countries to recognise it as a genocide.

Australia, Canada, even the USA. Graham, you've got a number of

Ukrainians in your constituency. is a genocide, it should be

recognised as such. Let's also look at places like reminder and

Yugoslavia. This happens in a lot of places. -- Rwanda and Yugoslavia. In

Derbyshire, working people were hung on the steps of the courthouse, both

in Derby and Nottinghamshire, for having the temerity to demand the

vote, so we should all remember our history and learn from it. That has

been recognised as a genocide. Just because this was before 1948, it

still should be recognised. Where do we go from here? Some fairly heavy

duty lobbying still. I will continue to do that and work with the

all-party Parliamentary group because I was talking to John

Whittingdale last week about it and he is still lobbying and trying to

get it so we will not give up. far do you go with this? There are

other areas that might be regarded as genocide, the treatment of Native

Americans, the treatment of aborigines, and even the Irish

potato famine. Yes, but they were not genocide in the same way this

was a deliberate man-made genocide and famine. They didn't just take

all the seats, they took all the grain, they got rid of all the

animals. People had nothing to eat except bark from trees, leaves, and

the odd woodland animal. Birds were killed, everything was killed.

the United Nations, so it is when they introduce this illegal

demolition -- when they introduce this legal definition of genocide.

So the government is right. But we have a duty to nurture our

democracy. We have to make sure that we'd be -- we are vigilant about our

democracy. We have some sort of inoculation against dictators, but

we must watch out. What are the Ukrainian community say? Aspect of

the ambassador after the debate and he was encouraged by the words used

by the Minister, but they were words and not actions. What we would like

is action and I am visiting them in the summer. I will have a longer

discussion with them then. Time for a round-up of some of the other

political stories in the East Ken Clarke has spoken out again in

favour of Britain staying in the European Union. In an article in the

daily Telegraph, the Conservative MP said it would damage the UK if we

left. The decision to grant a train building contract to Siemens rather

than bombard your has been question -- question. The government

confirmed the deal this week but the Labour MP is calling for an

independent review. Three independent councillors have joined

UKIP after being warned by the police about their alleged

harassment the council's Chief Executive. They claim they are being

harassed or by asking awkward questions. Threats that we shouldn't

be asking these questions, threats we shouldn't be going about our

business is councillors, and they are coming from the police and they

are unfounded threats. The County Council says the move is justified

because the three councillors have continued to cause distress to its

chief consecutive -- Chief Ken Clarke's pro-EU 's speech, was

it helpful? You wanted to be an EU MP. I am a Euro-sceptic. He has come

in at this particular time and I'm disappointed. We will have a

referendum, we have a bill going through in the near future, and I

think we need to wait for that now. Do you think we are likely to hear

far more pro-European speeches, because we haven't had a lot of

them. There is a likelihood of a very severe split inside the

Conservative Party, with even more people going. I think we are OK at

the moment but UKIP is a new phenomenon. That will put stresses

and strains. It will stress out the coalition. I can see a number of

members of Parliament leaving the Conservative Party. And the

referendum? It depends what the terms are and we need the