22/09/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands


22/09/2013

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the

:00:36.:00:44.

rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference

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this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics

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poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a

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good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?

:00:55.:00:59.

Back in Westminster, they're partying like it's 2006, as Damian

:00:59.:01:02.

McBride's memoirs re-ignite the Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell

:01:02.:01:08.

will tell us why he is sickened by the former Brown spin doctor.

:01:08.:01:12.

And speaking of political infighting, Conservative Party

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Chairman Grant Shapps will give his response to the rampant Tory-bashing

:01:15.:01:16.

In the East Midlands, praise for our at the Lib Dem Conference

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In the East Midlands, praise for our politicians for their role in

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helping a community cope with five shocking deaths in one city.

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business. In London, Labour commands over the two thirds of the ethnic

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minority vote but now stands accused of institutional racism. Are they

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right? With me, the best and the brightest political panel in the

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business. Isabel Hardman, Janan be tweeting like demented Damians

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throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.

:01:53.:01:56.

Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.

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Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and

:02:02.:02:04.

spending commitments are coming according to the Labour leader's

:02:04.:02:11.

critics. He's been out and about this morning and told Andrew Marr

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that he knew it was going to be this morning and told Andrew Marr

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It is about a party that lost office three years ago. We are trying to be

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a one term opposition. That is tough. I believe it is a fight that

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we can win and I am up for that fight. The stakes are so high for

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young people who want a job, for people whose living standards are

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being squeezed. For people who think that this is not good enough for

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Britain. So what do key Labour Party activists - its councillors - think

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about the direction Mr Miliband activists - its councillors - think

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taking their party? Adam Fleming is in Brighton at the Party Conference

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with all the details of our latest exclusive Sunday Politics survey.

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conference set. Let us unwrap them. With the help of an opinion poll we

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surveyed 1350 Labour councillors across England and Wales. We wanted

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to find out what they think as Labour gathers for its conference.

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The Labour leader warmed up for Labour gathers for its conference.

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week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great

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week by taking to his soap box in councillors said they did not think

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Ed Miliband was doing a good job as leader. 30% said they thought the

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party would have a better chance if someone else was in charge at the

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next election. You will see more of Ed Miliband as we run-up to general

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election. He has been in the job for three years! Now it is crunch time.

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The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked by roughly one third of the party as

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well. Ed Balls is not a pop your man. He says things and he speaks

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his mind. -- not a popular man. diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not

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seem to be that bothered about our survey. Over at a conference centre

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When it comes to relations with trade unions, the majority of Labour

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councillors thought things were absolutely fine. Just 9% thought

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things with the unions were a little bit too close. Tricky because Ed

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Miliband want to loosen the link. The shadow environment secretary

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arrived in Brighton ride bicycle from London to raise money for

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councillors what they would do if the next election results in a hung

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parliament, just over half said the next election results in a hung

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would tell the lid Dems to get on their bikes. We would never say

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would tell the lid Dems to get on to going into coalition. It gives us

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the chance to be in government and prepare some of the damage of the

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last three years. So are you going to start being nice about the Lib

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Dems? I always treat them with courtesy. And the parties admitted

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that perhaps they had opened the door to too many immigrants. It

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that perhaps they had opened the our survey Labour councillors of

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warming the felt that immigration We're now joined by the Shadow Chief

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Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Good morning. Let us start

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with Ed Miliband. Is it true that the team insisted that he be called

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the leader? I just call him Ed and I think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet

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do. Do you welcome working for a leader that says he is winning back

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socialism? We are a democratic important thing is that we have

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socialism? We are a democratic policies that will improve people 's

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lives and tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many families.

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Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all

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policies that I think the country are calling out for after three

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years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages

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for 38 out of the 39 months but Minister. I think that is the most

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important thing. So it is OK now to risk their to the Labour Party again

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as the Socialist party? The clue is in the name, we stand up for working

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people. You are socialist party according to the leader. We have

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always been the Labour Party, that is our name and we stand up for

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working people, not the privileged few like this government with their

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tax cuts for millionaires. Those are privileged few. The Labour Party is

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about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your

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run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour

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councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he

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councillors, who can he convince? Well you could say that two thirds

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of councillors think that he is Well you could say that two thirds

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right leader. But these are Labour councillors. The overall majority of

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Labour councillors think that he is doing a good job. What matters is

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the results on election day. Two thirds of councillors think that he

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is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this

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week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well

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week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will

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also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding

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apprenticeships, giving a break public. Policies like expanding

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struggling. I think people will public. Policies like expanding

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what kind of a leader that he is. Well he has a mountain to climb

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among all voters. Let me ask the question. Just 12% see him as a

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Prime Minister in waiting, just question. Just 12% see him as a

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see him as a natural leader. Why? If question. Just 12% see him as a

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you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in

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those polls. It is hard being leader Minister. By nature you are in

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opposition. But he has taken on Rupert Murdoch and the press barons.

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That is strong leadership, standing up to the vast majority. If you

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That is strong leadership, standing at his reforms to our relationship

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with the trade unions, strengthening ties with individual members. I

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think that he is a strong leader making the right decisions. If that

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is the case, why has the Labour making the right decisions. If that

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gone from 14 points one year ago to at most four points now. What went

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wrong? Well we are six or eight are six or eight points ahead in the

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consistently ahead. It looks as are six or eight points ahead in the

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we would get an overall majority if there was an election tomorrow.

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we would get an overall majority if we have more work to do to convince

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more people to vote for Labour. we have more work to do to convince

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a one term Labour opposition. I this is a historic challenge, to be

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a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the

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next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The

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big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary

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school children. How much will that government, they ring fenced money

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after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring

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fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools

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within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they

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can charge for children to come to provide that. At the moment they

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their first clubs. But this is a additional money. As it was under

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the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because

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we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools

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should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying

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schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at

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night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that

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money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.

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It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority

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where is the money being spent now that you would take it from? If

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where is the money being spent now look at some of the things that

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where is the money being spent now government is doing, building free

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schools in areas where there are already enough. That is capital

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spending. We are ring fencing that priorities. We had the ring fence

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when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools

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when we were in government. It would to offer that wraparound care. Of

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course schools can charge a small to offer that wraparound care. Of

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fee for their breakfast clubs and after-school DVDs. But the important

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thing is that provision is there for parents going out to work. Ed Balls

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and Ed Miliband are at the heart of the Brown project. Damien Wright was

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable that they did not know what he was

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable up to. It is inconceivable that

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable did not -- Damian McBride. I am

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asking about Damian McBride. What did not -- Damian McBride. I am

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asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.

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I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know

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that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.

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that backstabbing going on. There is no plotting against Ed Balls going

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on? I do not see that. And anyone who briefed against colleagues

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should be sacked, I agree with that. Nick Clegg's conference speech made

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it clear he was repaired to work with Ed Miliband in the event of a

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hung parliament. Are you excited by that prospect or is it just boring?

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to say that. With his poll ratings of 9%. I think it is up to the

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general public to decide who they want to form a government. We are

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campaigning for an overall Labour that just boring boring? I want

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campaigning for an overall Labour serve in a Labour government is

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campaigning for an overall Labour a coalition government. That is

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campaigning for an overall Labour we are campaigning for. Thank you

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for joining us. Steve Richards, we are campaigning for. Thank you

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has Ed Miliband got to do this week? He has got to start to win the

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argument about the economy. I think they will be quite clever on that in

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terms of saying that the recovery has begun but it is not going to

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benefit many of the voters. Unlike previous economic recoveries. That

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is a strong line and they need to make that again and again. The

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recovery has barely started. The make that again and again. The

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interesting thing, Isabel, they make that again and again. The

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to make a living standards the issue let's return to living standards

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which have been squeezed. The polls show that twice as many people blame

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Labour for the living standards show that twice as many people blame

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the Conservatives. It is a great scene for them to mine, and it is

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the only one before they announce big policies, but they have not

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gained the trust of voters on the economy, so the Conservatives can

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say they are finishing the job of fixing the recovery now and then

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cannot quite trust us with the economy but we will talk about

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living standards. Ed Miliband's economy but we will talk about

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elucidating policies and not just incredibly vulnerable. The only

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thing worse than not having a policy for an opposition leader is to have

:16:14.:16:22.

a policy. It gives the opposition something to attack, the media

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something to scrutinise and it makes you bold rubble and you can see

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something to scrutinise and it makes coming through already before the

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conference has started. You have childcare. Spigot can he provide

:16:32.:16:41.

wraparound childcare for free? childcare. Spigot can he provide

:16:41.:16:47.

can he provide wraparound childcare for free? I don't even know what it

:16:47.:16:56.

is. Opposition is emphatically an art form, and the art form, and

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artform for them at the moment is to artform for them at the moment is to

:16:59.:17:00.

announce policies without spending any money and it is very difficult

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to do. You gave an illustration any money and it is very difficult

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how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to

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announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately

:17:14.:17:18.

say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend

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a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything.

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a penny on it, because they are is where it an artform. The tax

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suspension before and election is crazy, because they will find money

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one way or another, but in another way, they cannot say we will spend

:17:36.:17:41.

money on this. It is a real problem. How do you measure the state of

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money on this. It is a real problem. coalition after the Liberal Democrat

:17:44.:17:47.

conference? The Liberal Democrats were in a very strong position after

:17:47.:17:51.

their conference, Nick Clegg had faced and activists on some issues,

:17:51.:17:55.

including fracking, which they supported, which seem to be the

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including fracking, which they important part of the conference. In

:17:59.:18:02.

terms of the coalition, the Tories have had to sit and watch as Vince

:18:02.:18:06.

Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have basically criticised them and said

:18:06.:18:09.

they are evil and only the Lib Dems can make sure the Government is

:18:10.:18:13.

they are evil and only the Lib Dems and works properly. So in terms

:18:13.:18:14.

they are evil and only the Lib Dems how the coalition works, you can

:18:14.:18:17.

expect to see some revenge at the Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick

:18:17.:18:25.

Clegg's followers, they had their revenge. Mister Clegg may have

:18:25.:18:32.

convinced his own activists to stay behind him, but he has a bigger

:18:32.:18:38.

convincing the British people. There is some interesting polling they

:18:38.:18:41.

have done privately that suggests there is a market of about 25% of

:18:41.:18:46.

the electorate which is plausibly open to them, and all they have

:18:46.:18:49.

the electorate which is plausibly do is target policies remorselessly

:18:49.:18:51.

at that group, rather than the broader public, in order to do well

:18:51.:18:55.

enough at the next election to hold the balance of power. That is why

:18:55.:18:57.

policies that seem weird to us, the balance of power. That is why

:18:57.:19:01.

free school meals regardless of income, may perversely make sense to

:19:01.:19:15.

them. Because it appeals to their political world we are in, the

:19:15.:19:17.

Labour strategists think they can political world we are in, the

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Labour strategists think they can win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

:19:19.:19:20.

to concentrate on 25. The Tories win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

:19:20.:19:22.

to concentrate on 25. The Tories have seized to be a national party

:19:22.:19:24.

any more. We haven't been used to it for a long time. In the 80s, one

:19:24.:19:28.

party dominated, the Tories. In for a long time. In the 80s, one

:19:28.:19:32.

90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour

:19:32.:19:39.

Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we

:19:39.:19:42.

have other parties hoping that dominated. We are now here but we

:19:42.:19:46.

will give them a small overall majority and it is the best they can

:19:46.:19:49.

get. It is a very odd situation where the main two parties feel

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get. It is a very odd situation can lose and the Lib Dems are openly

:19:55.:20:00.

targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long

:20:00.:20:05.

way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about

:20:05.:20:12.

all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for

:20:12.:20:15.

all of the policies he had locked. Conservatives to say that he is

:20:15.:20:17.

blocking all of the things that voters outside of our bays are

:20:17.:20:21.

interested in, top immigration policy, human rights reform, that

:20:21.:20:26.

sort of thing. David Cameron can say that in Manchester next week. One

:20:26.:20:30.

thing was quite clear, it came out of this awayday, and and this is

:20:30.:20:46.

this, that when you look at Mister Miller band's polls, the Tories

:20:46.:20:51.

this, that when you look at Mister going to make this a presidential

:20:51.:20:57.

Which is why I am curious why they When the strength of your party

:20:57.:21:03.

Which is why I am curious why they against his opponents, why not have

:21:03.:21:07.

him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.

:21:07.:21:09.

past week has given us inklings When the Lib Dems gathered for their

:21:09.:21:17.

Government is planning on fighting When the Lib Dems gathered for their

:21:17.:21:23.

annual shindig in Glasgow, some about their blue blood fellows.

:21:23.:21:31.

annual shindig in Glasgow, some bedfellows. Vince Cable led the

:21:31.:21:35.

annual shindig in Glasgow, some Tories had reverted to type as a

:21:35.:21:38.

nasty party and describe their politics as ugly, cynical, callous

:21:38.:21:44.

and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not restrict himself to policies that

:21:44.:21:47.

and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not the Lib Dems had champion, such

:21:47.:21:48.

and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not increasing the amount you can earn

:21:48.:21:54.

before paying tax. The Deputy Prime Minister proudly listed all of the

:21:54.:21:59.

things he had stopped the Tories from doing. Speak of scrapping

:21:59.:22:02.

housing benefit the young people, no. No to ditching the human rights

:22:02.:22:08.

act. No to weakening the protections in the equalities act. So how much

:22:08.:22:15.

of a break have the yellow brigade being on Conservative ambitions

:22:15.:22:18.

question mark in the two leaders shake hands again after the 20

:22:18.:22:22.

question mark in the two leaders election, what policies were David

:22:22.:22:26.

Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No matter how many times Nick Clegg

:22:26.:22:31.

Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick self-styled. He boasted to his

:22:32.:22:48.

conference that he had stopped the Tories from going ahead with 16

:22:48.:22:52.

policies in government. Is this accurate? I don't know but what

:22:52.:22:56.

policies in government. Is this can tell you, as your commentator

:22:56.:22:59.

Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a

:22:59.:23:02.

majority government sent out to that we wanted them if we were a

:23:02.:23:05.

very popular things, like reforming the human rights act and some of the

:23:05.:23:09.

problems that provides when it comes to sending people who have no right

:23:10.:23:11.

to be in this country back. So there to be in this country back. So there

:23:11.:23:14.

may be some things we could have inheritance tax cut? I don't know

:23:14.:23:24.

the details, but I think it is negotiation and sometimes you can't

:23:24.:23:30.

get everything you want, and we negotiation and sometimes you can't

:23:30.:23:35.

done the best, given where the electoral maths left us. That is why

:23:35.:23:37.

70 people in this country say they electoral maths left us. That is why

:23:37.:23:39.

70 people in this country say they would rather see a single party

:23:39.:23:42.

running the country -- why so many people. I have to say I agree. They

:23:42.:23:49.

Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you

:23:49.:23:53.

Give me a couple of major policies had a majority in 2010 and were

:23:53.:23:55.

Give me a couple of major policies held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking

:23:55.:24:01.

the one I just mentioned would be Country, we have had 1,000 years of

:24:01.:24:07.

than capable of putting in place developing the law and we are more

:24:07.:24:10.

than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left

:24:11.:24:14.

the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process

:24:14.:24:18.

of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would

:24:18.:24:23.

like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country

:24:23.:24:27.

has a great future but we can only ourselves the best place in the

:24:27.:24:30.

world to come and set up a business. ourselves the best place in the

:24:30.:24:34.

If we make ourselves the best place entrepreneurship and I think there

:24:34.:24:39.

are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.

:24:39.:24:44.

And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what

:24:44.:24:51.

ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It

:24:52.:24:56.

has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election

:24:56.:24:58.

will come, we know it is in May talks about when the next election

:24:58.:25:04.

but that is in part being in a coalition. The Tories wouldn't have

:25:04.:25:10.

done that? It wasn't the plan of any party to go from... In the old days,

:25:10.:25:16.

there would have been speculation. debate, you changed the British

:25:16.:25:21.

constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated

:25:21.:25:27.

on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there

:25:27.:25:33.

was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me

:25:33.:25:36.

that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here

:25:36.:25:44.

it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided

:25:44.:25:49.

stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been

:25:49.:25:52.

stability in an incredibly uncertain for the economy. we will chalk that

:25:52.:26:01.

up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about taking people out of tax, the Lib

:26:01.:26:08.

Dems did that question mark it is a great policy. It is a conservative

:26:08.:26:15.

led government, it is a Conservative This is a screen grab from your

:26:15.:26:21.

party's website, income tax cut This is a screen grab from your

:26:21.:26:25.

25 million people. You are taking the credit for it, it wouldn't have

:26:25.:26:29.

happened without the Lib Dems. It certainly came about because of

:26:29.:26:33.

happened without the Lib Dems. It coalition and we put it in the

:26:33.:26:35.

coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative

:26:35.:26:36.

Chancellor making it happen. It have happened without a Conservative

:26:36.:26:41.

right, 25 million people taken out of tax. Another 17 by this April

:26:41.:26:47.

will not be paying tax at all. you didn't want to do it. Look at what

:26:48.:26:52.

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during What Nick Clegg is promising is

:26:52.:27:06.

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during £17 billion tax cut. We are saying,

:27:06.:27:10.

stop the waste of 6 billion to stop the national insurance rise. I would

:27:10.:27:14.

love to take everyone out of their first £10,000 of income tax, it

:27:14.:27:17.

love to take everyone out of their beautiful idea but we cannot afford

:27:17.:27:24.

unaffordable and now you are taking the credit for it. I feel like it is

:27:24.:27:30.

having a three year afterwards argument, and we got into coalition

:27:30.:27:33.

because the British people put us there and we agreed to make the best

:27:33.:27:37.

of it. And as it happens, if you want to hear a confession, I

:27:38.:27:41.

absolutely think it is the right thing to take as many people out of

:27:41.:27:45.

tax entirely as possible. Two points 7 million people pay no tax at all

:27:45.:27:48.

because of this rise in the threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm

:27:48.:27:57.

pleased it worked out. What are the most important thing is a majority

:27:57.:28:01.

Tory government would do after 2015, unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I

:28:01.:28:07.

think produce even more jobs when unemployment goes down, because we

:28:07.:28:10.

think produce even more jobs when are the most entrepreneurial place

:28:10.:28:14.

to set up a business. Are more free-market economy? We make our

:28:14.:28:19.

money because we are out global trading economy. That is why it is

:28:20.:28:26.

so important that we have to make sure it is easy to trade around the

:28:26.:28:30.

world. One simple example, it is crazy in my view that we have global

:28:30.:28:34.

tariffs that prevent some of the hardest other countries in the

:28:34.:28:36.

world, in developing parts of the world, from exporting to us and vice

:28:36.:28:42.

versa. I'm giving you a platform of things that I think we would be more

:28:43.:28:46.

versa. I'm giving you a platform of interested in progressing in. It

:28:47.:28:50.

sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led

:28:50.:28:57.

agendas. I think that you did a huge amount to show this country that if

:28:57.:29:01.

you want to help the least well off people in society, and the least

:29:01.:29:05.

well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to

:29:05.:29:09.

trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open to

:29:09.:29:14.

free trade. If there is another hung parliament, and the poll suggest

:29:14.:29:19.

there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what

:29:19.:29:24.

would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away

:29:24.:29:31.

from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay

:29:31.:29:35.

out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want

:29:35.:29:40.

a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and

:29:40.:29:44.

you don't end up with negotiation after an election. We will be

:29:44.:29:47.

setting out a very clear platform which will be for hard-working

:29:47.:29:51.

people in this country who want to work hard and get on in life. We

:29:51.:29:55.

would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,

:29:55.:29:59.

where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a

:29:59.:30:02.

situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think

:30:02.:30:08.

we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out and

:30:08.:30:12.

do a day's work and get the money at the end of the day rather than

:30:12.:30:15.

thinking there is an alternative. you have promised a referendum on UK

:30:15.:30:19.

membership of the EU in 2017, that must be your first Red Line? We are

:30:19.:30:27.

clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no

:30:27.:30:35.

poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,

:30:35.:30:38.

a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the

:30:38.:30:46.

EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and

:30:46.:30:49.

comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,

:30:49.:30:55.

Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people

:30:55.:31:00.

want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future

:31:00.:31:04.

coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to have

:31:04.:31:10.

a say. You will know from our manifesto. What is wrong with yes or

:31:10.:31:16.

no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project

:31:16.:31:21.

beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the

:31:21.:31:26.

negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how

:31:26.:31:31.

much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.

:31:31.:31:41.

Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you

:31:41.:31:47.

feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most

:31:47.:31:54.

vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.

:31:54.:32:01.

And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so

:32:01.:32:05.

much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether

:32:05.:32:18.

with Mr King? I do not think it is terribly helpful for any Cabinet

:32:18.:32:24.

minister to make comments like that. What I would say is that Nick Clegg

:32:24.:32:30.

minister to make comments like that. is the leader of the Lib Dems and

:32:30.:32:37.

entitled to have a view on it himself. Look at these figures on

:32:37.:32:44.

party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr

:32:44.:32:50.

Cameron became leader? I would like it to be more. But I think the world

:32:50.:32:56.

has changed. People do not rush out and join political parties as they

:32:56.:33:02.

used to. Instead they support you in different ways. If I released the

:33:02.:33:10.

number of people who give to the party in different ways, through

:33:10.:33:15.

donations for example, through friend memberships. If you include

:33:15.:33:23.

that that figure goes back up. But your membership has fallen by 50% at

:33:23.:33:31.

a time when UKIP has doubled. I do not want to to misinterpret what I

:33:31.:33:40.

want to say. It is important to gain members. I think we will have done

:33:40.:33:45.

that by the time of the next election. But one statistic of

:33:45.:33:52.

interest, in the last election I had a 17,000 majority in my own

:33:52.:33:57.

constituency. The difference was I had 1000 people helping me to

:33:57.:34:02.

deliver leaflets and knock on the doors. The Conservative party has

:34:02.:34:08.

changed. We now have an army of people, volunteers who are not

:34:08.:34:18.

necessarily traditional members. The days when you expect people to give

:34:18.:34:24.

you £25, before you accept their support, those days have passed. You

:34:24.:34:28.

spoke about your most vulnerable marginal seats. This is a poll from

:34:28.:34:38.

Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most marginal seats that you will be

:34:38.:34:45.

defending. Labour is way up, you are way down and UKIP is also up. What

:34:45.:34:54.

is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both are moving to Labour. And

:34:54.:34:59.

disillusioned Conservatives are moving to UKIP. If these figures

:34:59.:35:06.

came at an election he would lose 32 of these 40 seats. The point about

:35:06.:35:11.

any opinion poll is that it is perhaps accurate at the moment it is

:35:11.:35:17.

taken. We are now in a position where the economy has turned the

:35:17.:35:26.

corner. The right thing to do was to deal with the deficit. The people

:35:26.:35:34.

being asked about these things, they will be interested in their own

:35:34.:35:36.

standard of living. Their mortgage payments. Why are you doing worse in

:35:36.:35:44.

the marginal seats? National League you are kind of nip and tuck with

:35:44.:35:53.

Labour. Well if that is the pick to come 2015, people will see that this

:35:53.:35:58.

government has stuck to its guns. It did not go for more borrowing and

:35:58.:36:03.

spending. And the record demonstrates that the last thing you

:36:03.:36:08.

want to do is give the car keys back to the people who crashed it in the

:36:08.:36:14.

first place. Lynton Crosby at this away day of Conservative MPs, his

:36:14.:36:21.

one message was to go all out and attack Ed Miliband. It is going to

:36:21.:36:26.

be a nasty election. That is actually not true. We are going to

:36:26.:36:34.

focus on his policies, if he finally announces some. Everything we have

:36:34.:36:39.

seen so far suggests it would mean more borrowing and spending. The

:36:39.:36:47.

shadow chancellor said we would be ruthless, just a few months later,

:36:47.:36:55.

27.9 pounds of extra spending committed by Labour. These are your

:36:55.:37:04.

figures. I will speak to you about that during the Tory conference.

:37:04.:37:09.

It's just after 11:30. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

:37:09.:37:14.

up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair Campbell gives us his

:37:14.:37:16.

not-too-positive review of Damian McBride's memoirs. Until then,

:37:16.:37:28.

Good afternoon from the East Midlands. When a community is hit by

:37:28.:37:40.

tragedy, what can politicians do? People normally do not know which

:37:40.:37:44.

way to head so politics try to gel and cement the community.

:37:44.:37:51.

And seconds out for the battle of the East Midlands marginals, but

:37:51.:37:55.

does anybody have the knockout blow? Hoping to stop at Miliband in at

:37:55.:38:03.

least one seat is the Conservative MP /Ed Miliband. He is defending a

:38:03.:38:08.

tiny majority. And alongside him is the Labour MP whose majority is a

:38:08.:38:17.

potentially vulnerable 2,000. First, the reaction to the news that

:38:17.:38:20.

successful hospital managers from the NHS to be sent in to help

:38:20.:38:25.

failing hospitals including the Sherwood hospital Forest trust and

:38:25.:38:33.

United Lincolnshire hospital trust. Kingsmill hospital backs onto your

:38:33.:38:35.

constituency, how long will this move take to turn things around? It

:38:35.:38:42.

will take a while and we need to give them time to go through this

:38:42.:38:46.

process. It is an enormous organisation and you cannot do a

:38:46.:38:51.

handbrake turn in an oil tanker, you need to get the management

:38:51.:38:56.

structures in place. We need to give my constituents the confidence to

:38:56.:39:00.

keep using that facility and get it going in the right direction. Can

:39:00.:39:06.

you give us a timescale? We will have to see how they get down and

:39:06.:39:14.

the changes they can make —— get on. I would have thought about 18

:39:14.:39:18.

months, we will see things changing and hopefully we can make a quick

:39:18.:39:22.

improvement. We have to give them time to settle in and look at these

:39:22.:39:26.

things. What do you think of this move, a

:39:26.:39:31.

good move? Anything that tries to improve

:39:31.:39:34.

management in hospitals, Kingsmill, and the trust, the Sherwood Forest

:39:34.:39:41.

trust, are in transition. So if you bring good managers into assist and

:39:41.:39:47.

support change is a good thing. But you have the pressures of resources,

:39:47.:39:52.

staffing ratios. They are huge pressures and Kingsmill will be

:39:52.:39:56.

suffering the consequences of that. It has been used in schools so it is

:39:56.:40:03.

a precedent, can it work? I think it can work, it works where it is

:40:03.:40:08.

supported. A hospital from Barnsley are coming in to support the trust.

:40:08.:40:13.

If you have that trust coming in and supporting, it can work. So for the

:40:13.:40:20.

benefit of patients, that is what you want. But alongside that of the

:40:20.:40:25.

problems we know happening in the NHS with staffing cuts.

:40:25.:40:29.

Mark, you have been in contact with the new management board. They keep

:40:30.:40:34.

telling us they are getting through the key recommendations, are you

:40:34.:40:40.

convinced? I am a bit cautious. They have a gardening needs to put into

:40:40.:40:44.

action and it is down to people like me to hold that accounts to make

:40:44.:40:49.

sure they deliver on that. The one thing that is crucify the system at

:40:49.:40:53.

Kingsmill is the PFI which was signed which is crippling their

:40:53.:40:58.

finances. If we can help them get out of that, that will be the best

:40:58.:41:01.

thing. But it is an enormous challenge financially.

:41:01.:41:06.

Thank you very much. From political rows to an issue which has tested

:41:06.:41:11.

both the politicians and the people they serve. The killings in

:41:11.:41:15.

Leicester last week have shaken the different communities in the city

:41:15.:41:19.

that has been praise for the way people have dealt with the events

:41:19.:41:22.

and now there is praise from the cities 's politicians. We spoke to

:41:22.:41:29.

the city reader who said they have played it prominent part in helping

:41:29.:41:32.

to heal the wins —— from the city 's politicians.

:41:32.:41:37.

Politicians play an important role in issues like this, they like ——

:41:37.:41:41.

people look for leadership and we are fortunate in Leicester to have

:41:41.:41:46.

keep files whose constituency we are in now. —— three. I have all been

:41:46.:41:59.

meeting with us since this tragedy. —— three. They have shown solidarity

:41:59.:42:04.

and have gone the extra mile to ask if there is anything we can do to

:42:04.:42:09.

facilitate an early burial, which is a requirement. We have had meetings

:42:09.:42:17.

with various agencies and it has been marvellous. You can set an

:42:17.:42:22.

example and show leadership because at times like this, people are

:42:22.:42:26.

confused and do not know which way to head, so politicians play a role

:42:26.:42:31.

in leadership to try to cement the community and relations. This can

:42:31.:42:35.

very easily go wrong and there can be a wedge put between communities.

:42:35.:42:42.

Can they help community speak to each other and to the mainstream

:42:42.:42:46.

society? You mention the problem with burial, it is a different

:42:46.:42:49.

practice in a Muslim community, how can a politician help with that? We

:42:49.:42:57.

have signed an historic document allowing Muslims 24 hours, seven

:42:57.:43:03.

days a week access to burial services. The structures were in

:43:03.:43:08.

place where Leicester was the first city in Europe to allow this and it

:43:08.:43:13.

is continued nationally now, that is another example of how politicians

:43:13.:43:16.

helped us in the dawn of this work that we do, helped as facilitate

:43:16.:43:21.

this. Today, we see the benefits because the structures are in place

:43:21.:43:27.

were we can... Unfortunately, we usually see politicians at a time of

:43:27.:43:33.

elections asking for votes. But in a situation like this, they know

:43:33.:43:38.

community work is of significance and they have supported us, and it

:43:38.:43:42.

is something we can export from Leicester to other parts of the

:43:42.:43:45.

country. Rare praise from politicians looking

:43:45.:43:50.

to read their community. I was reporting from an event in

:43:50.:43:57.

Leicester, or one councillor spoke of the importance of staying calm

:43:57.:44:01.

together, the city Mayor said it showed the city at its best.

:44:01.:44:04.

Carefully chosen words, extremely important. It is important, you have

:44:04.:44:11.

to tiptoe around these issues because you do not want to be

:44:11.:44:14.

overbearing and interfering. Would you want to be supportive and try to

:44:14.:44:19.

help that community through that tragedy and find a way to make sure

:44:19.:44:22.

you stop that from happening in future. Or you can make it better.

:44:22.:44:28.

It is very difficult. How do you pitch it? It is one of the hardest

:44:28.:44:34.

things to do and undoubtedly, you get it wrong probably every time.

:44:34.:44:39.

You are either not supportive enough or you are to interfering. I was

:44:39.:44:44.

struck on Tuesday about how right they got it. Praise to them, it it

:44:44.:44:50.

is very difficult. And you do not want to find yourself in that

:44:50.:44:53.

circumstance but if you do, you go with your gut feeling. Vernon, your

:44:53.:44:57.

shadow brief is Northern Ireland where it has had its troubles and

:44:57.:45:03.

problems and politicians have been closely involved in getting the

:45:03.:45:07.

community together. In your experience, what role can

:45:07.:45:11.

politicians play in this? An enormous role because when something

:45:11.:45:15.

terrible happens in a community, a mixture of emotions happen. Anger,

:45:15.:45:20.

disbelief, sorrow, grief. And a sense of the world it. Sometimes,

:45:20.:45:26.

people coming out and sharing that, it if you are a community leader,

:45:26.:45:30.

makes a huge difference. If you look at Northern Ireland, where there has

:45:30.:45:35.

been a sense of injustice about something, somebody saying the right

:45:35.:45:39.

things and even Parliament, makes a difference. I give one good example,

:45:39.:45:45.

and I say this about —— as a Labour politician. The Prime Minister as

:45:45.:45:49.

his response to the Bloody Sunday enquiry, he got the tone just right

:45:49.:45:54.

a year ago. That meant a lot to the people of Northern Ireland,

:45:54.:45:59.

particularly the people in Derry, Londonderry were those killings had

:45:59.:46:01.

taken place. That made a huge difference. What came out on Tuesday

:46:01.:46:07.

was the issue of community solidarity and achieving that. It

:46:07.:46:14.

means such a lot to people. People can be cynical and say it does not,

:46:14.:46:17.

but it does matter, and the words do matter. You have to be careful to

:46:17.:46:22.

get those right, but when they do get those right, it makes a huge

:46:22.:46:29.

difference. The doctor who lost four members of his family said he got

:46:29.:46:33.

his strength from their love, how do communities provide that kind of

:46:33.:46:39.

support? It is very difficult, but you try to engage with those people

:46:39.:46:42.

and you try to pull them together and point them in a direction and

:46:42.:46:49.

read them through it. As a politician, you never want to find

:46:49.:46:52.

yourself in that circumstance but if you do, you have to go with it.

:46:52.:46:58.

People want you to be there. We leave it there for a moment. We

:46:58.:47:03.

saw dignity there in the face of tragedy in Leicester, but elsewhere,

:47:03.:47:06.

the knock—about stuff of politics continues and it does not get any

:47:06.:47:11.

more knock—about and in the marginal constituencies which could play a

:47:11.:47:15.

major role in determining the outcome of the next election. Ed

:47:15.:47:19.

Miliband might be in Brighton for the Labour Party conference, but in

:47:19.:47:22.

an interview this week, he told as our marginals were on his mind.

:47:22.:47:28.

The East Midlands is very important to us. And we will be talking about

:47:28.:47:34.

that as something very important, the cost of living crisis facing so

:47:34.:47:38.

many people. The government is saying the economy is healing and is

:47:38.:47:43.

fixed, but ordinary people think life is getting worse. At the

:47:43.:47:47.

conference, we will show how life can get better, starting with ending

:47:47.:47:52.

the bedroom tax. What is the key to winning back the marginals?

:47:53.:47:55.

According to Lord Asquith, the key is UKIP, you have increased your

:47:55.:48:00.

read because so many Tories are defecting to UKIP. The key is

:48:00.:48:05.

talking about the issues that matter, and there is nothing more

:48:05.:48:10.

than the cost of living. So many people think life is getting harder

:48:10.:48:14.

every year, the squeeze on living standards, and there is no end of

:48:14.:48:18.

sight, I fear, under this government. We will do something

:48:18.:48:23.

about it and the key is, which party can make a difference on those

:48:23.:48:27.

issues? That is what we will be doing at our conference.

:48:27.:48:34.

Ed Miliband talking this week. His big policy idea is to scrap what he

:48:34.:48:39.

calls the bedroom tax, what she would call the under occupancy

:48:39.:48:43.

charge. —— you would. Will this be a big vote in a tight marginal like

:48:43.:48:50.

show what? I do not, you need a credible financial plan. Says he

:48:50.:48:54.

will scrap that, we need to know about the funding. We have heard it

:48:54.:49:00.

all before. The only way to help families through the financial

:49:00.:49:04.

crisis and the squeeze is with a credible financial plan to generate

:49:04.:49:08.

wealth and jobs, and that is what the government are doing. We are

:49:08.:49:11.

working to make sure the economy goes in the right direction, and the

:49:11.:49:15.

rest is waffle unless you have a credible plan.

:49:15.:49:20.

40,000 claimants in the East Midlands will benefit from scrapping

:49:20.:49:24.

this, Labour claim, to around £600 each year. They will get more. That

:49:24.:49:30.

would be a vote winner, will it not? I am up for that fight and we

:49:30.:49:36.

have a great story to tell as a government. We have done the right

:49:36.:49:40.

things to turn the economy around and in terms of immigration and

:49:41.:49:44.

making life better for people who work hard and wants to get hard ——

:49:44.:49:49.

get on. I am up for the fight and excited. It is a scandalous tax and

:49:49.:49:53.

it has caused uproar, the bedroom tax. There hundred of people in

:49:53.:50:02.

Sherwood and over 400 families losing between £14 and £25 each week

:50:02.:50:10.

in one area. Some of the poorest families, with disabilities, denied

:50:10.:50:14.

that support. Most people will be cheering from the rafters. But there

:50:14.:50:19.

is a lot of support for cutting the benefits bill. For cutting where

:50:19.:50:24.

people see it as unfair but people see the bedroom tax as a non—fat

:50:24.:50:27.

burden on some of the poorest people. Why should somebody with a

:50:27.:50:34.

house to pick for them be paid more than somebody else? Because these

:50:34.:50:37.

are people with carers, caring for people with disabilities, that extra

:50:37.:50:42.

bedroom where the carer will stay sometimes, they are losing benefits.

:50:42.:50:49.

Not in every case. Two thirds of the people affected people with

:50:49.:50:52.

disabilities or the poorest families, and that is what ending

:50:52.:50:56.

this tax on some of the people in our country, I think many people

:50:56.:50:59.

will say that is the right thing to do. A lot of people in Sherwood

:50:59.:51:06.

squashed into houses that are too small, families who have got too

:51:06.:51:09.

many kids in bedrooms who cannot move because of the houses are under

:51:09.:51:15.

occupied. You have to use the asset you have got, and you have council

:51:15.:51:19.

houses which are an asset for the community, we need to use those to

:51:19.:51:24.

support that community and to spread that goodness around. The only way

:51:24.:51:27.

to do that is to move people and accommodate them. I would rather pay

:51:27.:51:33.

for that by closing tax loopholes on businesses and some of the richest

:51:33.:51:37.

people in the country, but you are making the poorest people pay for

:51:37.:51:41.

it. A lot of people in Sherwood are working hard to add a lot less than

:51:41.:51:46.

the benefits cap and it is shocking you opposed that. We do not oppose

:51:46.:51:52.

the benefits cap. I am quite prepared to go to public meetings,

:51:52.:51:57.

Mark can support the bedroom tax, I will support scrapping it, and we

:51:57.:52:01.

will see. I am sure the arguments will

:52:01.:52:05.

continue until 2015. So what is happening in the marginals? We have

:52:05.:52:10.

been to Derbyshire, where the sitting MP Nigel Mills has a

:52:10.:52:15.

majority of just over 500, to speak to party workers from both sides and

:52:15.:52:18.

to find out what you think. Ripley is in the heart of the Amber

:52:18.:52:24.

Valley and the scene is set for a heavyweight battle between Labour

:52:24.:52:27.

and Conservatives, but who is going to win? And servitors think it is

:52:27.:52:32.

the way they run the Borough Council here that gives them the knockout

:52:32.:52:35.

blow. If you look at the Borough Council

:52:35.:52:39.

record, you will find we have done a very good job. We are providing

:52:39.:52:45.

excellent services and very good value for money. And we have always

:52:45.:52:49.

got our eyes and ease —— and ears open. Wherever things can be

:52:49.:52:55.

improved, we do what we can. Are you going to go knocking on

:52:55.:53:00.

doors yourself? We always do, all Conservative

:53:00.:53:04.

members knock on doors, that is what it is about, getting close to people

:53:04.:53:08.

and knowing their problems and making sure they know what we do for

:53:08.:53:12.

them and what we intend to do in the future.

:53:12.:53:15.

Labour are hoping hard work and knocking on doors will have them big

:53:15.:53:21.

killer punch. —— the killer punch. How can you do

:53:21.:53:27.

this? Three days a week, Wednesday,

:53:27.:53:30.

Saturday and Sunday, we have to put in the work to get the results in a

:53:30.:53:34.

tight marginal seats like the Amber Valley. There is only a majority of

:53:34.:53:40.

500 and we feel getting the right message out and listening to people,

:53:40.:53:44.

people are disenchanted and we have two engage with them again and with

:53:44.:53:47.

the effort and commitment we are putting in, we can turn the seat

:53:47.:53:53.

around. Do you get help from Central? We put in as much effort as

:53:53.:54:00.

local members allow us to do. As a local party, we put in the effort we

:54:00.:54:04.

can to help the party nationally, it is local routes up words and not

:54:04.:54:09.

national party downwards. In the end, it is your votes that

:54:09.:54:13.

count, but on the streets, there is a breaking through.

:54:13.:54:19.

Governments are weak, nobody seems able to do the job. Essentially, we

:54:19.:54:24.

need to be able to think about getting out of Europe, slowing

:54:24.:54:27.

immigration down and controlling it, and nobody wants to do that. So I

:54:27.:54:33.

suspect I will vote UKIP. He would you vote for this time? —— who

:54:33.:54:40.

would. Publicly I think I might take a risk and ring Labour in ——

:54:40.:54:47.

probably. My vote is midway between Conservative and UKIP. So between

:54:48.:54:53.

now and the general election, the canvases and the politicians have

:54:53.:54:59.

got to sway my vote one way or another. It is more than a year and

:54:59.:55:04.

a half until the next general election and in the marginal

:55:04.:55:08.

constituencies of the East Midlands, Labour and Conservative are slugging

:55:08.:55:12.

it out. It looks as though they will have to fight hard for every vote.

:55:12.:55:18.

Hardly overwhelming the is —— overwhelming support for you,

:55:18.:55:22.

Vernon, a lot of people thinking of voting UKIP. But the polls from Lord

:55:22.:55:27.

Ashcroft, eight prominent Tory politician, showed a big swing to

:55:27.:55:34.

Labour in the marginal seat —— a prominent. He said some people were

:55:34.:55:38.

thinking of voting UKIP. But there was a clear swing to labour in those

:55:38.:55:41.

marginal seats across the country, including in the East Midlands.

:55:41.:55:47.

But because of the defection from the Tories to UKIP, that is why you

:55:47.:55:53.

are benefiting. But we are in front and we are doing well in those

:55:53.:55:57.

seats. What we need to do is work hard and you saw the campaigning

:55:57.:56:01.

effort going in from the candidates, everybody working hard.

:56:01.:56:04.

And when people start to think about the cost of living, the fact that

:56:04.:56:08.

prices are going up faster than wages, the impact on the

:56:08.:56:12.

consequences of what the government are doing, it is all to play for. We

:56:12.:56:16.

are working hard and campaigning hard in all the seats.

:56:16.:56:23.

Somebody in that report said that term —— on between Conservative and

:56:23.:56:29.

UKIP, is that your worst nightmare? I think only Mr Cameron Ed Miliband

:56:29.:56:37.

will get the keys to number ten. —— or Ed Miliband. That is your

:56:37.:56:41.

choice, we have to get that message across, and if you vote UKIP, E will

:56:41.:56:47.

get Ed Miliband. We have got to sell our message. —— you will get. How we

:56:47.:56:52.

have worked on immigration and welfare reform, we have a good

:56:52.:56:58.

message to get across. But there are 18 months to go. A year ago, Labour

:56:58.:57:02.

were 14 points in front and now we are neck and neck, who knows about

:57:02.:57:06.

12 months? Is the problem for both of you not

:57:06.:57:10.

that UKIP is moving public opinion towards their policies of

:57:10.:57:16.

immigration and Europe? We will make a very positive pitch and will not

:57:16.:57:20.

have a negative note of Mark. We think people have had their living

:57:20.:57:26.

standards breezed by this government and we will present an alternative

:57:26.:57:30.

and we will say, it does not have to be like this, we can create a fairer

:57:30.:57:34.

and more equal society, and that will be the positive pitch we make.

:57:34.:57:38.

It will be policies like the bedroom tax, that is why you should vote

:57:38.:57:43.

Labour. Will he be more hard line on things

:57:43.:57:47.

like immigration and Europe? —— will you be.

:57:47.:57:51.

We have to get our message across, what we have achieved. Not looking

:57:51.:57:56.

at other parties and campaigning negatively but selling our message

:57:56.:57:59.

and telling people what the government has done and the progress

:57:59.:58:04.

we have made. We will not go back but to keep going with that agenda.

:58:04.:58:09.

That is a classic sign of when you are in trouble, saying, we are not

:58:09.:58:12.

getting our message across. Well, you certainly cannot ignore it

:58:12.:58:18.

UKIP at the next election. A quick round—up now of other political

:58:18.:58:20.

stories in the East Midlands. Drivers will have to slow down

:58:20.:58:33.

outside Nottinghamshire schools after the county council voted to

:58:33.:58:41.

bring in a 20 mph speed limit. Most would—be advisory but some will be

:58:41.:58:42.

compulsory. A new factory making parts for

:58:42.:58:47.

Formula 1 and high—performance cars is to be built in Derby and will be

:58:47.:58:51.

financed by the regional growth fund. A loan of almost £5 million

:58:51.:58:56.

will help build a new factory. And Twitter rows are becoming a

:58:56.:59:01.

theme, this time it is the Derby North MP Chris Williamson, accused

:59:01.:59:06.

of comparing the Liberal Democrats to Nazi collaborators. The Labour MP

:59:06.:59:11.

has said the accusations are utterly ludicrous.

:59:11.:59:15.

It is not just our politicians power —— who are power hungry, the East

:59:15.:59:18.

Midlands has the highest energy consumption figures in the country.

:59:18.:59:23.

The top ten districts for energy use in our patch. Rutland has the higher

:59:23.:59:33.

consumption figures in the country. The top ten in the East Midlands,

:59:33.:59:38.

what is that down to? Maybe we are drinking more teeth than beer!

:59:38.:59:47.

—— Morty. It is probably something to do with demographics but it shows

:59:47.:59:50.

the importance of doing something to tackle energy problems, which

:59:50.:59:54.

everybody is suffering from, about time the government did something

:59:54.:59:58.

about that. Do something rather than just say something!

:59:58.:00:03.

Thank you very much indeed. We are told energy bills and charges will

:00:03.:00:08.

be one of the main themes of the Labour conference getting underway

:00:08.:00:13.

in Brighton. That has been the East Midlands politics, thanks to our

:00:13.:00:14.

guest. Now it is time to hand only if the ball comes to me. Bob

:00:14.:00:20.

Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very much. Leafing through the papers the

:00:20.:00:33.

Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very last few days has taken me back

:00:33.:00:38.

Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very my youth. The halcyon days of the

:00:38.:00:39.

2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who

:00:39.:00:43.

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian should run the Labour Party. Gordon

:00:44.:00:46.

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his

:00:46.:00:48.

enemies - has published his memoirs, timed for maximum impact in the

:00:48.:00:57.

enemies - has published his memoirs, of Labour's Conference. They detail

:00:57.:00:58.

how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet

:00:58.:01:02.

Ministers, that is - and fought tooth and nail to promote the man he

:01:02.:01:06.

called "the greatest man he ever met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us

:01:06.:01:13.

called "the greatest man he ever is Tony Blair's former Director

:01:13.:01:13.

called "the greatest man he ever Communications, Alastair Campbell.

:01:13.:01:20.

You are angry about what he has Communications, Alastair Campbell.

:01:20.:01:28.

in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it

:01:28.:01:35.

in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at

:01:35.:01:38.

in a way that will be -- will be time. But also because of the lies

:01:38.:01:41.

that he told at the time that he now communications and trying to hold

:01:41.:01:50.

the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and

:01:50.:01:58.

others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.

:01:58.:02:03.

I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage

:02:03.:02:07.

where I said if Whelan does not about it. And there came a stage

:02:07.:02:14.

I will go. And when Damian McBride was on the scene I was clear that I

:02:14.:02:20.

was not going to have anything to do with him. Because of what he is

:02:20.:02:26.

was not going to have anything to do admitting to, I think they played

:02:26.:02:29.

quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the

:02:29.:02:34.

public were being fed by them, this public were being fed by them, this

:02:34.:02:40.

narrative, the whole time. That Blair was useless, Charles Clarke

:02:40.:02:47.

was useless. And I think that we where the government and had very

:02:47.:02:51.

good ministers trying to do big things for the country. I said this

:02:51.:02:58.

morning it was like being a foot tall team were on the pitch you

:02:58.:03:04.

morning it was like being a foot your own players kicking the star

:03:04.:03:07.

players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped

:03:07.:03:10.

usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think

:03:10.:03:17.

did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely

:03:17.:03:25.

undermine Tony Blair and to promote their man, Gordon Brown. It is

:03:25.:03:30.

inconceivable then that Gordon Brown did not know about it. Well in spite

:03:30.:03:38.

reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge

:03:39.:03:42.

him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will

:03:42.:03:50.

sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward

:03:50.:03:57.

by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.

:03:57.:04:03.

People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single

:04:03.:04:10.

journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,

:04:10.:04:14.

who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against

:04:14.:04:20.

ministers. That was my golden rule. People say you were the forerunner.

:04:20.:04:28.

I know it was not the case. One People say you were the forerunner.

:04:28.:04:41.

the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which

:04:41.:04:52.

associated with, once I wrote a actually within the government,

:04:52.:05:02.

associated with, once I wrote a had a principle of maximum openness

:05:02.:05:03.

and trust. Anyone could come to had a principle of maximum openness

:05:03.:05:08.

morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as

:05:08.:05:14.

part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not

:05:14.:05:16.

coming. Because I knew where it Gordon Brown, your people are not

:05:16.:05:22.

coming from. Did you know that the time but Charles Clarke and others

:05:22.:05:26.

were effectively being destroyed from within the Labour government? I

:05:26.:05:31.

certainly knew that they thought that. I did know journalists telling

:05:31.:05:39.

me that that was what was happening. Ultimately, this is why I never

:05:39.:05:50.

me that that was what was happening. leaders, it is ultimately up to

:05:50.:05:57.

me that that was what was happening. litre. Possibly in a different age

:05:57.:06:00.

Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a

:06:01.:06:04.

great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible

:06:04.:06:11.

people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and

:06:11.:06:14.

giving him and the Labour Party horrible things in politics and

:06:14.:06:18.

politics a bad name. That is why I'm still angry about Damian McBride.

:06:18.:06:28.

What do you make of it? The current administration is a contrast. We

:06:28.:06:32.

have rival factions occupying the same offices but they still get

:06:32.:06:38.

have rival factions occupying the The only time they have a row is

:06:38.:06:41.

when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing

:06:41.:06:44.

Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

:06:44.:06:50.

I would assume so. I spoke with time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

:06:50.:07:03.

about it at the time. He told me at the time that he had spoken about it

:07:03.:07:13.

with Gordon Brown. So I think there was a concern from within that camp

:07:13.:07:18.

about some of these activities at equivalence, in life you expect

:07:18.:07:28.

about some of these activities at see that there is full on both

:07:28.:07:28.

sides. But I do not buy it in this see that there is full on both

:07:28.:07:34.

case. If you look at the testimonies see that there is full on both

:07:34.:07:37.

over the years, what you can surmise about the character of Gordon Brown

:07:37.:07:42.

and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately driven by Gordon Brown and the

:07:42.:07:48.

people around him. The Blairites did things but they did then by way

:07:48.:07:52.

people around him. The Blairites did retaliation rather than initiation.

:07:52.:07:56.

The one-time when I did lose it retaliation rather than initiation.

:07:56.:08:01.

the whole psychological force thing. That came at the end of a period

:08:01.:08:03.

when we were relentlessly being That came at the end of a period

:08:03.:08:09.

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to

:08:09.:08:12.

colleagues would be there and I journalists. I would go along to

:08:12.:08:20.

had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown

:08:20.:08:25.

would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your

:08:25.:08:28.

would have anything to do with this. credibility is on the line. Coming

:08:28.:08:29.

promotion of alcohol awareness. credibility is on the line. Coming

:08:29.:08:40.

before that the Labour Party, you never had to deal with this in

:08:40.:08:43.

opposition because you were pretty far ahead in the polls by midterm.

:08:43.:08:48.

This time that is not the case. far ahead in the polls by midterm.

:08:48.:08:56.

is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To

:08:56.:09:04.

keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And

:09:04.:09:09.

to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,

:09:09.:09:16.

particularly the kind of policy agenda he is shaping for the future.

:09:16.:09:23.

And start to heart -- start to hit the Tories hard. They're not pop,

:09:23.:09:28.

they're not competent. They're screwing up the health service.

:09:28.:09:34.

they're not competent. They're yet they are neck and neck. I would

:09:34.:09:36.

say that the whole Shadow Cabinet understand that you win elections by

:09:36.:09:42.

wanting to win elections every minute of every day. There is too

:09:42.:09:50.

much complacency. A small lead now you have to grow that. You do that

:09:50.:09:55.

with energy and conviction and policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole

:09:55.:10:04.

bead in the run-up to 1997. We were winning seat where we had not even

:10:04.:10:11.

campaigned and he was saying, why celebrate because we have not won

:10:11.:10:13.

yet. You are promoting your alcohol celebrate because we have not won

:10:13.:10:17.

yet. You are promoting your alcohol awareness campaign. Perhaps the

:10:17.:10:19.

party conference is not the best place to do that! That is one reason

:10:19.:10:28.

why I am doing that. I'm hosting probably the only alcohol free

:10:28.:10:34.

reception of the week! There is nothing worse than a convert, I

:10:34.:10:41.

reception of the week! There is that. But I travel a lot. I travel

:10:41.:10:47.

around the world and Britain has a something we should be ashamed of.

:10:47.:10:56.

Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David

:10:56.:11:03.

Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a

:11:03.:11:16.

reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:16.:11:19.

problem but we spent £2 billion treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:19.:11:26.

100,000 problem drug takers and treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:26.:11:28.

million on 1.6 million problem have written this book about a young

:11:28.:11:41.

million on 1.6 million problem alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in

:11:41.:11:45.

the first person. People could think you are writing about yourself.

:11:45.:11:48.

did you choose a teenage girl? Well did you choose a teenage girl? Well

:11:48.:11:55.

partly, I dedicated this to the Southampton. He told me when he

:11:55.:12:06.

started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women

:12:06.:12:13.

and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One

:12:13.:12:21.

doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and

:12:21.:12:27.

the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and

:12:27.:12:33.

emergency. I watched the foot all, advertisements for gambling and

:12:33.:12:41.

advertising. How have we allowed this to happen, ? We are just awash

:12:41.:12:51.

with it. What we did I think on Availability and price either too

:12:51.:12:58.

means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had

:12:59.:13:05.

the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very

:13:05.:13:17.

much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be

:13:17.:13:22.

with live coverage of Labour Party Conference, including the speech

:13:22.:13:25.

from the man who wants to be the next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember

:13:25.:13:27.

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