06/10/2013 Sunday Politics East Midlands

Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU

referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel

demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers

prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be

the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be

between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?

And in the East Midlands — the mail peoples faces?!

And in the East Midlands — the mail scam that's costing victims tens of

thousands of pounds. And how are the Greens and UKIP planning to win your

vote? He will try to force a vote in the

October. Home Secretary Theresa He will try to force a vote in the

was asked about his plans on the BBC earlier this morning. I think he has

got it wrong, I think what we need to do is to negotiate the settlement

with the European Union and then put that to the people me to decide

whether to be in or out. Is this a flea bite or a real threat? I think

the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people

that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future

and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.

And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who

And what the amendment possibly putting the Referendum Bill through

Parliament has said, is it could jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie

joins us now from Millbank studio. Good morning. If the referendum

would be held next October, it would have to be an in-out question based

the status quo? There wouldn't be time for a full renegotiation. I

disagree. By having a referendum in 2014, it gives us 12 months to

renegotiate, but it kick-started negotiations, because the European

Union, if they wish us to remain members, would need to accommodate

and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate

and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,

strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time

for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has

not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our

timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I

think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I

a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need

certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for

ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for

conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is

essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their

souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That

would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I

said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.

You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.

the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they

don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I

wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British

people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties

here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,

I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be

good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be

referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the

referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue

that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to

deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust

deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables

in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables

this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables

is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables

the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum

within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may

within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got

your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come

forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come

to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever

closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving

our legal system, I might change my more border control and control

our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to

happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in

negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in

people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It

certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five

weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,

is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know

cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in

2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop

this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your

party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the

Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but

Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or

not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or

British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with

it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for

each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and

decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the

headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this

opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this

say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a

say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle

with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the

panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with

him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with

that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most

prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if

you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in

charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.

They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill

is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.

It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the

next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that

all the future government would theoretically impossible and that

is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that

Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that

nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David

Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to

his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do

not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in

that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister

has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister

membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able

to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could

not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could

a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is

has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some

pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were

going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of

the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to

hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an

operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,

operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign

is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy

under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am

pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton

is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton

bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main

episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David

Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope

Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is

in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do

you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but

not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from

you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from

scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,

re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy

really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.

Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.

this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would

this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to

without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to

without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in

the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to

the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two

been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.

Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this

scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a

value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to

Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up

to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up

time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first

losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first

future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if

you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the

5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating

a housing prime mover. You cannot get training to 5% mortgage anymore,

90% even, so there are couples in our country who have good jobs,

decent incomes, they could afford the mortgage payments but they

failure in our banking market. So Jonathan, but I guess for you this

is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a main impact of this scheme will

is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a to push up prices, who does that

benefit? Mostly rich and all the people who own their houses. Plus

the banks, of course, because it is a subsidy for them. Who loses?

People who want to buy a house in the future. Moreover, it is a bit

odd that the Government says it the future. Moreover, it is a bit

not OK to borrow to finance schools or roads, but it is fine for the

effectively, in order to guarantee housing market. 2.3 million? I do

not think Help to Buy covers that. But enter a would-be buyer, will

they now be seeing a plethora of help to buy mortgages? In a word,

no. David Cameron has brought the months, and banks were not ready at

that stage. Two banks have committed to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group

and the RBS group, so lenders like Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will

be doing the scheme, but even once the scheme is up and running you are

probably find 95% mortgages on the high street because of the guarantee

the government is offering. People might say this is how we got into a

mess in the first place. Why would the government want to make those

products available then now? It the government want to make those

more what investment banks were doing in the background that caused

performed extremely well through the depths of the downturn. Is this

performed extremely well through the game changer? Yes, I have done my

best to save over the last few years but this has enabled me to make

best to save over the last few years first purchase. How frustrating

best to save over the last few years it just renting? Very frustrating,

you are throwing away money hand over fist, and now I can take that

enthusiasm raises a question back at the flat. If you are looking for a

95% mortgage, you don't really care economy, you are thinking, great, I

can buy a house. Yes, if I was a house buyer or a bank, I would be

pleased, but it will do longer term economic damage. The tricky steps

the government are trying to pull off is that home-buyers might be so

grateful for the opportunity to off is that home-buyers might be so

their own homes that they reward the Government with the vote, while

their own homes that they reward the the same time the Government tries

to sidestep consequences that such a Now Conservative MP Margot James,

and Allister Heath, editor of City It is said by the critics that this

scheme will cause a housing bubble. Where is the evidence? House prices

are more varied. Housing not just in London remains overvalued and the

problem with this scheme is that it will pump up house prices, it will

therefore houses will become even more overvalued. That is a dangerous

territory, last time it ended in tears, and now the Government is

taking on the risk of that policy. What do you say to that? We have a

real problem, it takes people on average until they are 38 years

real problem, it takes people on property. The problem is not that

they cannot afford it, but they cannot afford the deposit. We have

got to do something to allow people to get their feet on the property

ladder and I don't agree it will cause a boom in house prices. It

would if we were not building any have had a record this year, 12

months to right now, the record have had a record this year, 12

the last ten years. These are not the statistics I have seen, but

the last ten years. These are not new supply is coming up. It is

starting to creep up. We don't see enough house building, need to build

more houses and that is a solution to this problem. You are right,

people cannot afford to buy homes and the reason is there are not

enough good quality homes in the deposits are so high is because

secondly the Government has passed laws to make the banking system

secondly the Government has passed prudent, telling them to put more

wrong. Now suddenly the Government is not happy with the outcome of its

own rules and is trying to create these subsidies to circumvent the

rules it has put in place. It is not a subsidy. Don't forget banks have

to pay a charge in order to take part in this loan scheme and that

the... You are guaranteeing the money. Yes, but the fear is worked

out on a commercial basis. The taxpayer is protected. Why? You

out on a commercial basis. The guaranteeing £12 billion worth of

mortgages per year. Yes but the change in the whole mortgage basis

has been made a few years ago in response of the crash. They made the

distressed test on people applying for mortgages much higher and you

twice... So it will not be like these self certification mortgages

handed out in America that caused the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit

like that but the banks are rightly asking for bigger deposits, they

know there is a big chance house prices could fall if interest rates

eventually, so they are demanding bigger deposits. The Government

eventually, so they are demanding circumventing this is being passed

eventually, so they are demanding on to the taxpayers which is why it

is a dangerous policy. Instead they on to the taxpayers which is why it

is a dangerous policy. Instead they should be massively accelerating

Planning permission is much easier to get now, we have seen a 49%

increase in planning permission to get now, we have seen a 49%

a new building over the last year, a huge increase. In the figures I

a new building over the last year, a recently, they showed new start

a new building over the last year, a the 12 months to the autumn were

only about 110,000 which is the figure you inherited, which was

only about 110,000 which is the an all-time low in 2010. New house

built in the last quarter are third up on the time last year. You have

relaxation of planning laws and up on the time last year. You have

other policies the Government put into effect last year to take effect

and it is coming through now. I agree, if we weren't building more

houses, if the construction sector advantage of the increased demand,

there would be a risk. David Cameron says you are snob and it is only

snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They don't have the bank of mum and dad,

people like that will finally get on the housing ladder. That is complete

nonsense. We need a sustainable housing market where there is a

large amount of construction, like in the 1930s for example, where

large numbers of proper family homes were being built for people. House

prices were pushed down and people could afford houses. You are now

encouraging people to take out a 95% mortgage, I thought that was a bad

idea, so supposing interest rates go struggle, and supposing house prices

fall by more than 5%, I am now faced with negative equity and soaring

interest rates that I cannot afford. 95% mortgage, if you can afford

interest rates that I cannot afford. repayments, you will be fine. What

happens when interest rates rise? They have got to rise a lot before

you get into trouble. People are already affording rent which is

you get into trouble. People are lot higher than mortgage payments.

You will not be able to get into this scheme unless you can afford

repayments double what they are this scheme unless you can afford

the moment. The Conservatives should limelight last week but there was an

unwelcome intruder in the shape limelight last week but there was an

row between Ed Miliband and the Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the

claiming that Ed Miliband's Father Ralph hated Britain. They showed a

picture of his father's gravestone with the caption, grave socialist.

They then removed the photo and with the caption, grave socialist.

Ed Miliband the right to reply on printed an editorial alongside it

saying they stood by every word printed an editorial alongside it

published an fair headline. It also reporter had gate-crashed a private

memorial service for Ed Miliband's uncle in a London hospital, for

which the paper has now apologised, but Ed Miliband has called on the

hard look at the way his papers but Ed Miliband has called on the

run. This comes a week before a but Ed Miliband has called on the

Joining us now from Hull, John Prescott. Does this row between

Joining us now from Hull, John reinforce the case for tough, new

certainly influences the opinion about that but that is more of Paul

Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang about that but that is more of Paul

while I was in Strasbourg making sure my complaints were nothing

while I was in Strasbourg making do with press regulation and he

while I was in Strasbourg making right. This argument is not about

politicians and media people, it is about ordinary people that love

politicians and media people, it is and dealt with. All of these cases

affected individual people and they are the ones that need to have

justice in this matter. Next week we will be hearing whether the Privy

Council will be reporting on the will be hearing whether the Privy

agreeing then that what the mail did with its Miliband article was a

matter of judgement? Yes, and the with its Miliband article was a

conclusion that the relationship between the press, the police and

politicians should be governed, between the press, the police and

proposal given by half the press industry that that does not meet the

Leveson requirement and I suspect the Privy Council this week will

have to reject that, and I hope the Privy Council this week will

will because it is not consistent with the Leveson report which the

Prime Minister said he supported. You attacked the mail in your column

today but your paper went through the Cameron family bins to see what

nappies they used for their disabled son. Isn't that far more offensive

than what the Daily Mail wrote about Ralph Miliband? It probably is,

than what the Daily Mail wrote about couldn't defend that. I have had

Haven't we all? Yes, but we are editors who acts unilaterally. Paul

Dacre is running this thing in the judgement and some accountability

which the press have accepted the old PCC is no good. They are playing

for time because if they reject old PCC is no good. They are playing

this week there is 12 months until you can consider a parliamentary

alternative and then you are near the election and you begin to bully

the leaders. That is how they have been successful in putting off

recommendations. Maybe my memory is fading but did you or anybody else

in the Labour Party object to the Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't

know about it. I would just say Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't

is wrong if that is what they did. As you said, you have the same

position when they go through your rubbish bins, I think that is wrong.

We have Leveson set up by the Prime Minister to look at the cultures and

practices and the unilateral action of editors and he came forward with

a proposal that was agreed in Parliament under a compromise of the

Royal Charter. I don't like a Royal Charter, it is not democratic

frankly, but we have agreed to go along with it so why did the

Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press

box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a

means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to

introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not want

to face up to any form of accountability. We know Alistair

Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair

are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for

this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to

me, and he needs to be taking account. When Ed Miliband rang me it

was to say, don't let these arguments drift into press

regulation, he wanted the argument of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband

after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can stay there. It is like with Murdoch,

after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can we were not attacking him but what

is papers were doing. To that extent, what they are doing about

ordinary people, not just big politicians who can look after

themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they

might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well

destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre

got good judgment? I would say no, he will have to live with it.

Thank you for joining us, he did not even have to go to the BBC studios,

we sent a truck there for him. What is the endgame in this? Whether the

Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,

this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy

Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before

the end of the year, and the question is, what is political

impact? My hunch, it is an unfashionable view, is that the

total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past

several years, hacking and everything, is close to zero,

because most voters do not care, and those who do care believe that all

parties are roughly complicit in being too close to editors and

proprietors. You said that Adam Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a

smile. Is the Daily Mail also a Labour mole? This has been a dream

for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch, I am taking on the energy companies

and now the evil Daily Mail! I think... I should say I used to work

for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they

surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done

surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this

position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think

the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.

If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do

this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the

media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a

dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David

Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some

common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the

so-called press industry version. What the Daily Mail has done is

ensured that the Prime Minister is not going to be able to do that.

What is going to happen this week is that the press Royal Charter has to

be considered first, and that will probably be rejected. The Privy

Council will reject it. Then the three party Royal Charter will come

up, but meanwhile the press will set up their own regulatory body because

the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning, they will be

able to go ahead with that. There statutory underpinning, they will be

will be the legal basis for the oversight of the oversight body, and

it will basically just be an ambassador that will not be

resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the

profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for

Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great

victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the

narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But

all those vested interests are people that you would expect a

left-wing politician to want to take on. It is also more significant

about who he has stood up for, and the person he has studied for is his

father. Maybe people thought of him as a Marxist, now they think of him

as war hero. He gets to the crux of matters, you know! You are watching

the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be

speaking to Godfrey In the East Midlands, the

campaigners looking to stamp out scam mail. The letters with tempting

offers which keep coming through our doors and can leave victims tens of

thousands of pounds out of pocket. Receiving these through your

letterbox, if you are a victim, is like being mugged in your own home.

And last week it was Brighton, this week it's Manchester. Our Political

Editor gives us a behind—the—scenes look at how the East Midlands has

influenced the Conservative Party conference.

Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and my guests this week include someone who's

spent the week at the Tory Party conference in Manchester, Heather

Wheeler the Conservative MP for Derbyshire South. And still sporting

a Brighton sun tan, it's John Mann, the Labour MP for Bassetlaw in

Nottinghamshire. Welcome to you both. First, let's get your reaction

to the consultation which opened this week on the Derbyshire Fire and

Rescue Service's plans to close 19 fire stations across the county.

You must have some very worried constituents, Heather? At the

moment, I did suppose they are worried because they probably don't

know much about it. Your programmers highlighting it. The website dashed

the document is on the website. Or they can bring my office and get

copies. The model of the fire service is based on 1947 rules. This

is the 21st century. We need our fire service to come into the 21st

century. This is a plan for the future. So you approve of these

plans? I went my constituents to read the document and understand it

and give their comments. What is fascinating is that our numbers of

callouts have gone down 40 3% —— 40%. And we are getting safer as

well? Absolutely. We the same arguments from the ambulance service

in the East Midlands and the police service pulling police officers off

the front line and hospitals losing accident and emergency departments.

One thing that categorises this coalition government is that they

are taking part 999 services. Derbyshire is getting hits like the

rest of the country. But these plans were approved by the Labour majority

on the Fire authority. Because they have got less money because the

government has cut the money. It boils down to government

priorities. When George Osborne and David Cameron —— where they spend

the money, they cut money from fire services. Cuts, he is saying. No,

you doesn't understandably not going back to the 1970s. We are looking

forward to the future. There aren't some fantastic new pieces of kit. We

have to move with the times? Well, we've reported on the Lib

Dems, Labour and the Conservatives as the party conference season has

progressed, but what about some of the other parties? In a moment,

we'll be hearing from UKIP, but first the Greens' spokesman in the

region, Richard Mallender, told our reporter Helen McCulloch, about

their prospects. I think there is very good support

for the Green party in the East Midlands. We know from our local

election results and from the European results last time around

that many people want to vote Green. We are thinking about the

European elections next year when there is a proportional

representation system. That will be opportunity for people. What are

your key policies for the East Midlands? We are looking to help

grow the green economy. Want to see investment in housing and proper

installation. We want to see investment in renewable energy as

well. The East Midlands is the powerhouse for the UK economy. We

have power stations here in the Trent Valley. We also have ideal

situation for a lots more wind power. Some members of the Green

party has said that you need to look towards UKIP to gather support. UKIP

have been good at getting into the media. Unfortunately, or

fortunately, they have not had many —— we have not had many members

shooting their mouths of them saying daft things. We have to be out there

putting our policies forward. Well, a few digs at UKIP there and

with impeccable timing, joining us in the studio is Roger Helmer,

UKIP's MEP for the East Midlands. So, Roger. Richard Malleinder saying

that your party enjoys the controversy of it all. And some have

enjoyed putting their foot in it? We are a resurgent, exciting party. We

attract people with big personalities. Some of them go over

the top but at least there is action and development and excitement. So

the European elections next year, but already your deputy, Paul

Nuttall, is saying that he UKIP should stand in the European

elections. What do you think? We want to know because we want to

inform the current and the! You will be standing against me? No, I would

be standing against Heather Wheeler! I'm standing for a five—year term in

the Parliament. I hope I shall do well next year. But you must be

worried about UKIP? We have done interesting polling and we have

noticed how many votes are coming in from the old Labour end. We have a

small socialist workers group but they are churning through the votes

and UKIP are picking up those. Heather is right. Many people say

the UKIP is the Conservative Party in Excel. But we are getting votes

—— the Conservative Party in ex—aisle. But we are getting votes

from people who have not voted in many years or from the Lib Dems or

Labour. Are you worried, John? No, I'll worried about the hypocrisy of

UKIP. How much of you are from its? You have earned millions, you would

your leaders. Don't MPs get salaries? You don't believe any

European elections! I believe in representing my constituents. You

represent the —— in the European Parliament as if you are a Foreign

Minister. You argued that I shouldn't be allowed to represent

the European Parliament's view. I did not say any of those things. I

did not say that we ought to go and absolutely did not say that I was

representing the European Parliament. I represent a

constituency represent me. And I suppose you want in South Korea

either, paid for by the taxpayer? Gentleman, so why should they vote

for Labour and not UKIP? Because of jobs. The critical thing is jobs.

That is what East Midlands needs. And these 909 services. The NHS in

turmoil because of the cuts that are starting to work through. The fire

service, the Belize, the ambulance service ahead of it. That is what

Labour is fighting on. So how will you counter this UKIP vote? The

answer is that we have already got fantastic manufacturing jobs here.

They understand that Europe cannot do without us. They would be happy

to have a free trade agreement. There is no way that John and his

merry gang are gay to take is back to the 1970s. With your party be

standing against Heather? I don't know. Can I come back to John's

point. He has said that jobs are being hurt by excessive immigration

from Europe. We agree. The difference is is that it was John's

party which encourage this massive immigration and we are the only

party saying that we have to get out of European Union because that is

the only way that we can control our borders. And they don't say what

they would have in its place. But what Rogers said in America to the

Heritage Institute was that we want more flexible labour markets, in

other words, cheaper labour here. That issue has not been addressed.

Ever since Roger was in the Tory party and Margaret Thatcher took a

sin. It was your party when you were in the Tory party. The big error was

not that people can move across Europe, but that they can work

anywhere. What I am calling for is Caesar's so that we give people jobs

where they are needed and not where there's competition. Well done!

Ever, do you see UKIP are being taken more seriously? I can

understand why they're hopeful that, but unfortunately, they are not.

What is an old, dear friend and I will not disrespecting. But we are

talking about, in the nicest sense of the phrase, a group of people

coming together and unfortunately people have got very, very angry.

The recession was so bad and the austerity measures. But we had to

take them because of the huge deficit that we were left. But we

are coming out of the other side of it now. What about the fantastic

figures about the number of cars bought in the last month. And that

is Derbyshire. How was the party going to be taken more seriously? I

have seen the list of candidates for next year's European elections and

I'm very impressed. We have taken one guy who made a bit of a blooper

at our party conference and remove the whip from them. Any new party

will have people like this. We will straighten it out. We are a serious

party. We came second in the last European election. You bang on about

riding high in the polls, but but you did OK Lincolnshire but not in

the rest of the East Midlands. Compared to where we were, it was an

extraordinarily good result. Last time, we came second, ahead of

Labour. And we see the every —— we see every prospect of coming first

next time. That'll be a game changer in British politics. You have been

born! Roger Helmer, thank you for joining us.

Now last week our Political Editor, John Hess, sent me a postcard from

the Labour conference in sunny Brighton. This week, he's been to

not—so—sunny Manchester to see the Conservatives at their conference.

Dear Marie, a moment to relax with a touch of crazy golf, scale down to

an exhibition stand at the Conservative conference. One of our

MPs is even on the leaderboard. So which leader has got the best

handicapped and which one is on the campaign fair way for a hole in one.

But what you can't fail to mess around the Conference exhibition

hall is the image of the Tories certainly had an election winning

swing. Margaret Thatcher still inspires the party faithful,

especially for a new generation of conservative women. At a fringe

meeting, there were renewed calls for more women in politics. I think

it is much more credible if we have women talking about these is use

across the political spectrum than if we have the same men on TV or in

the newspapers all of the time. Amanda Soloway chairs the party's

women's organisation in the East Midlands and hopes to be the next MP

for Derby North. I would certainly like to see us getting into 40%. Try

to get women more involved. We have a lot to offer. Ken Clarke believes

he has more to offer. He confirmed he was staying on to fight the next

general election in rashly. I will be 74. Mid—term of my career. I am

surprised, to find myself still doing it. Although when I started, I

would have told you that I'm not sure if I would be persuaded to give

this up. Back to the golf, and success. The Conference ball hits

its target but maybe that is just political spin.

John Hess reporting on the Conservatives in Brighton — and get

ready to see our political editor as you've never seen him before in 60

seconds. But first, to most of us they're a nuisance — but to others

they can mean being conned out of thousands of pounds. Scam mail,

delivered through the letter box, telling you you've won prizes and

you need to send money to receive them, is a growing problem. And here

in the East Midlands, a campaign's sprung up to have them made illegal.

Des Coleman has been to meet the family of one victim.

Sometimes it is just junk mail. Other times, it includes tempting

offers of cash. Most of us throw them away. But some people get taken

in. I have come to Derbyshire to talk to a family that lost thousands

to one such scam. This is three months' worth of scam mail that you

had redirected from your father's house. Added it affect him? My

father became totally addicted to the extent that if you got a letter

like this, he would not do anything else that day until he had filled in

the forms, may the application and sent off his checks to the

criminals. He would refuse to to do anything with the family until he

had done that. £150 a week, £5,000 a year. We worked out that since he

has been doing this, he must have spent over £30,000. So what can be

done? Three things need to be done. One is to stop the delivery through

people's letterboxes of this can mail —— of this scam mail. The Royal

mail needs to filter this mail out. Secondly, Parliament needs to

strengthen consumer protection regulations to make trading

standards take stronger action against these criminals and conmen

delivering this mail. And ministers need to recognise that this is an

addiction, an illness, just as much as alcoholism.

Marilyn Baldwin, the founder of the Think Jessica Charity, is here. I

read on your website about your mum being scammed and it was just

heartbreaking. She was in her eighties, describe to me how it

literally took over her whole life. Described to me the day—to—day

bombardment. What happened to my mother, she responded to one of

these letters. And I was put on what is called a sucker 's' list. Over

the five—year period before she died, she received over —— several

letters from the scammers. We try to get the post redirected but there

was nothing that we could do. We could not get power of attorney, we

could do nothing. We had to stand back and watch a do it. What effect

did it have on her mentally, physically. Mother stopped going

out, she missed family weddings, she became very fearful of people coming

to the door. She was getting letters from FBI agents, she was getting

letters from clairvoyant saying that her family were against her. It was

a whole cocktail of additional characters which formed her

delusional world. You set up the charity based in the East Midlands,

but it is a much bigger problem than just here. It is a massive problem.

Through the Think Jessica Charity website, we can be alerted to people

who have lost millions. This mail is pumping into the UK. Brian Smith in

the video there is one of your constituents, what have you been

doing to help him? We have had ten minute rule debates in Parliament.

We have got hold of the ministers, try to explain to them the issue

over Royal mail. At the minute, it takes a signature of the Home

Secretary to stop mail being delivered. Well to reason may is a

bit busy! There are other things we should do. —— to reason may is a bit

busy! The Royal mail don't want to be dealing with it they won't be

sorting office to have a bundle of it and the police to go through it.

We need regulation. I take my hot off to you, setting up a charity. I

have found people, not always at elderly, while barristers say

anything. They are scared as well. There is an embarrassment factor ——

they are embarrassed to say anything. People get sucked into

this. A rent as losses. Our MPs doing enough? In 2009, I addressed

MPs in the House of Commons and I thought things were going to be done

then. MPs have come on board. Heather is doing an amazing job

now. Hopefully, she will keep pushing. I would like to bring in

that these scammers know exactly who they are going for. They are going

from mailing lists that categorise people as being elderly. You want

the world mail to tackle this, but how? Now that we here it is going to

privatise as well, that must be a concern. Yes, when I first

approached Royal mail, I asked them to put a simple message or flyer

where they could flag up victims who were getting a lot of this type of

mail. They said it was impossible to do. Everything about a pensioner

getting 100 letters a day and they say they can't be flagged up? ! They

say that they have cancelled several contracts over recent years and that

they understand the upset that scam mail can cause. This is a printed

Royal mail stamp. The company that sent this can be traced by the PPI

number on that stand. So cancelling ten contract is only the tip of the

answer. —— the PPI number on that stamp. What we are doing is taking

it a trading standards. East Staffordshire Council going to be

the hub. I have 21 MPs from all around the country who have got

their councils to join up with the East Sussex hub. We will attack the

criminals that way. What about Royal mail. There are plans for

privatisation. They are hardly going to want to turn away business? What

Royal mail have done is what they have —— which is the tip of the

iceberg. They have stopped coming in at the airports. This top 50,001 go

last time. But we need to change the law. It is too profitable for them.

Older viewers know, we all get junk mail of different kinds. Not of this

volume. This isn't junk, it is scam. Junk mail is legal. But the Royal

mail is making vast amounts of money from people buying mailing list. So

you are saying it is not in their interest to act on this? It is not

in their commercial interest. We need to make it so. We try to

educate victims and potential victims so that when these people

receive our literature and they get one of these letters, they think,

which is one of those, and they don't respond. Because at

We are getting into a discussion of more affordable homes needed, but we

have no time. Andrew, back to you. Our next guest is no stranger to

controversy, a former UKIP MEP he Our next guest is no stranger to

recently lost his party's whip after a series of outbursts including

receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land' and joking that a group of UKIP

women who didn't clean behind their fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in

independent but remains a UKIP party member. Here's a flavour of recent

events in the political life of Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly

be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails

within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the

within 12 hours, only 47 were not that is out of touch. Everybody

knows me, a bit like the Marmite joke, they love me or they hate

knows me, a bit like the Marmite but I have always told me like it

is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the

French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you

I have had hundreds of e-mails, a joke any more? I am long in the

correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing

well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are

picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are

their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is

disgrace me. We are joined now with a suitable distance between us by

the independent MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

said this weekend that you have and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I

rugby club likes to tell it as it am just an ordinary bloke from the

rugby club likes to tell it as it is. I did not come into politics to

rugby club likes to tell it as it save my country from the clutches of

the awful, evil... That is why I am in politics, and that is why I

member, and I will still be voting ability... Do you accept that your

conference? We were both born in ability... Do you accept that your

same year, we are too old to worry about regrets. Let's look forward

and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my

country and intent to do the best I independent for my country, and

country and intent to do the best I re-elected. They are the only game

in town, the only party that will get as out. Shouldn't you have been

liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of

perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a

one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe

meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything

Andrew. It tells you about your journalism - it is not about UKIP or

me, it was the journalists' reaction to a small joke at a meeting. And

myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable

force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has

been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June

and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement

about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote

getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you

what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip

of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,

and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect

that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?

Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?

have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to

have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David

Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been

gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of

it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown

machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in

Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things

in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You

in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in

in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't

of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment

love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as

an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as

European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could

do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in

Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the

fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance

to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I

am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey

take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for

joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do

not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because

they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason

for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and

more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even

in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like

Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked

Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they

got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they

kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist

long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his

website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he

photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does

photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin

was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It

sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be

sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP

sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the

European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is

right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what

this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to

electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as

electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the

three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the

probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.

The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making

The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and

councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need

Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need

ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.

David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.

David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women

among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?

He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?

week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way

businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics

in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet

table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,

whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before

the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before

women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before

have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before

big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we

need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in

need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing

need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than

need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she

need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime

need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I

think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I

will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to

will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin

college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,

but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult

brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger

roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger

told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary

level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot

James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.

What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important

intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George

Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls

you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this

you are doing it on talent, Andrea now, a tonne of bricks will fall on

him. He has got no excuse not to promote women, because the 2010

intake was disproportionately female in terms of talent. The question of

the Tories and the struggle with women voters is a very deep and

historic one. You have to remember that for most of the post-war period

they had an advantage electorally amongst women voters. Many times

Conservative government without amongst women voters. Many times

women of this country. This began to change in the mid-1990s, and the

question is, why has that happened? personalities at the top are now

much more hostile to women, or less, personalities at the top are now

Brent doubled to female voters? personalities at the top are now

is such a deep historical trend personalities at the top are now

I do not think one reshuffle will change it. -- or less competent

civil. The English party conference season is over, do you share the

consensus view that Ed Miliband season is over, do you share the

out best of the three party leaders? I think I probably do, but his

overall approval ratings are still minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus

ten. And the more the recovery seems minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus

to take place, and some of the latest figures are quite amazing,

they certainly surprised me, you wonder whether Labour's tactic is

right to put all their eggs into the living standards basket. I was

looking at car sales, which are booming. If people start to feel

better, and they don't yet, but booming. If people start to feel

they were, it is tougher to go on about living standards. George

Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband making a great thing about living

standards, but then they say under their breath, this is global forces,

outstripping wage increases. And you're absolutely right, as the

economy improves, presumably that will be dealt with, but Miliband's

argument will be that there are people suffering, and even if the

economy recovers, they will still forces, it is difficult to blame the

government for that. Body being noticed now, there is nothing worse

for the leader of the opposition noticed now, there is nothing worse

for the leader of the opposition than to be not noticed. -- but he is

being noticed now. It seems that he in many ways has set the political

weather. Look at the number of references to the Labour leader

weather. Look at the number of Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr

Obama's speech on a similar topic, living standards. Was the mentioning

Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the same language, he has not gone that

far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would be more worried now, because Labour

through the kitchen sink at their conference. They came out with the

biggest policy announcements they could, compulsory apprenticeships,

the energy freeze on prices, and it generated a poll boost which has

fizzled away within ten days. I generated a poll boost which has

not know where they go from here. What is significant with Ed Miliband

conference beaches, he has set the one nation Britain, and the problem

with those speeches is people say, they are fine, they are academic,

but what does it mean? What you they are fine, they are academic,

now is an intellectual framework that translates into policies. The

polls to watch are not the ones after the conferences, but at the

end of the month when it has also pulled down. They will tell us where

we are going. We will have to go ourselves now. Thank you to our

guests. The Daily Politics will ourselves now. Thank you to our

back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two, and I will be back on BBC One this

time, same time, next week. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.