12/01/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


12/01/2014

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the

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coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance

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the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he

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will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a

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completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the

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European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.

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Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how

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will they In the East Midlands: the man who

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lost ?20,000, gambling on be serious. Have cuts left to the

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service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio

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of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They

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will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick

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Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,

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the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on

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welfare after the next election. You cannot say, as the Conservatives

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are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will

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not make any additional contributions from their taxes if

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there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to

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balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy

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people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the

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hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear

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to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make

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additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public

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finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories

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a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive

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differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two

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years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is

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what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying

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to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the

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polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will

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do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined

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with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There

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was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the

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Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent

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macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals

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with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was

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more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have

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to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,

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but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was

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foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a

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coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I

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cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about

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principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed

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Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a

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joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed

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Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood

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the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he

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said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels

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liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition,

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liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and

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the early days of the coalition, and maybe those winds will haunt him all

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the way to the general election But he feels liberated, he says, we will

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be the restraining influence on both the Conservatives, who cannot insure

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that the recovery is fair, and the Labour Party, that do not have

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economic red ability. He feels relaxed, and that is why he is

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attacking the Tories and appearing pretty relaxed. He could also be

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falling into a trap. The Tories think what they suggesting on

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welfare cuts is possible. The more he attacks it, the more Tories will

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say, if you gave us an overall majority, he is the one it. He keeps

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taking these ostensibly on popular positions and it only makes sense

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when you talk to them behind the scenes, they are going after a tiny

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slice of the electorate, 20%, who are open to the idea of voting Lib

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Dem, and their views are a bit more left liberal than the bulk of the

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public. There is a perverse logic in them aggressively targeting that

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section of voters. In the end, ten macro's problem, if you do not like

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what this coalition has been doing, you will not vote for somebody who

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was part of it, you will vote for the Labour Party. The Tories are too

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nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has

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gone to Labour, and that is what could hand the largest party to

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Labour. That small number of voters, soft Tory voters, the problem for

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the Liberal Democrats is, if you fight, as they did, three general

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elections to the left of the Labour Party, and at the end of the third,

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you find yourself in Colour Vision with the Conservatives, you have a

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problem. Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has

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had to deal with aid riot at HM Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike

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and unhappy probation officers taking industrial action.

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Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers

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and rapists. It makes many who are tempted to commit crime think twice.

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Traditional Tory policy on criminal justice and prisons has been tough

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talking and tough dealing. Not only have they tended to think what they

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are offering is right, but have had the feeling, you thinking what they

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thinking. But nearly two decades after Michael Howard's message, his

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party, in Colour Vision government, is finding prison has to work like

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everything else within today's financial realities. The Justice

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Secretary for two years after the election had previous in this field.

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Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a change of direction. Just binding up

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more and more people for longer without actively seeking to change

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them is, in my opinion, what you would expect of Victorian England.

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The key to keeping people out of prison now, it seems, is giving them

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in a job, on release. Ironically, Ken Clarke was released from his job

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15 months ago and replaced by Chris Grayling. But here, within HM Prison

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Liverpool, Timpson has been working since 2009 with chosen offenders to

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offer training and the chance of a job. Before you ask, they do not

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teach them keep cutting in a category B prison. The Academy is

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deliberately meant to look like a company store, not a prison. It

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helps. You forget where you are at times, it feels weird, going back to

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a wing at the end of the day. It is different. A different atmosphere.

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That is why people like it. Timpson have six academies in prisons,

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training prisoners inside, and outside they offer jobs to

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ex-offenders, who make up 8% of their staff. It has been hard work

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persuading some governors that such cooperation can work. I have seen a

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dramatic change positively, working with prisoners, particularly in the

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last five years. They understand now what business's expectation is.

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Timpson do not just employ offenders, but as one ex-prisoner

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released in February and now managing his own store says, the

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point is many others will not employ offenders at all. From what I have

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experienced, on one hand, you have somebody with a criminal conviction,

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on the other, somebody who does not have one, so it is a case of

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favouring those who have a clean record. Anybody with a criminal

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conviction is passed to one side and overlooked. That, amongst myriad

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other changes to prison and how we deal with prisoners, is on the desk

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of the man at the top. Ever since Chris Grayling became Secretary of

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State for Justice, he has wanted to signal a change of direction of

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policy, and he is in a hurry to make radical reforms across the board,

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from size and types of prisons to probation services, reoffending

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rates, legal aid services, and there has been opposition to that from

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groups who do not agree with him. But what might actually shackle him

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is none of that. It is the fact that he is in government with a party

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that does not always agree with him, he has to abide by the rulings of

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the European Court of Human Rights, and in those famous words, there is

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no money left. We would like to go further and faster. I would like him

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too, but we are where we are. If the Liberal Democrats want to be wiped

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out at the next election based on what they believe, that is fair

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enough. We accept there has to be savings, but there are areas where

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we feel that there is ideological driven policy-making going on, and

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privatising may not save any money at all, and so does not make any

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sense. The question is, we'll all of that means some of Chris Grayling's

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reforms need closer inspection? Chris Grayling joins me now.

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Welcome. We have a lot to cover. If you get your way, your own personal

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way, will be next Tory manifesto promise to withdraw from the

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European Convention of human rights? It will contain a promise

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for radical changes. We have to curtail the role of the European

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court here, replace our human rights act from the late 1990s, make our

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Supreme Court our Supreme Court, Supreme Court our Supreme Court

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they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we

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have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and

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responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do

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not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last

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September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is

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clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as

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long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in

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Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency --

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recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will

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publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a

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direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will

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mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the

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European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept

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that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,

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but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we

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need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the

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different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We

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are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our

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colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our

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decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,

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in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will

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see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that

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deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the

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Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,

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we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is

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what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But

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how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we

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will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail

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the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The

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decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you

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sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney

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General says. I would be asking Strasberg a

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different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is

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enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if

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this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale

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reform in the court tomorrow, I m reform in the court tomorrow, I'm

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not sure it is going to happen which is why we are going to the election

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with a clear plan for this country. Would you want that to be a red line

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in any coalition agreement? My mission is to win the next election

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with a majority. But you have to say where your red lines would be. We

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have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties,

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have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties but

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in my view the public in this country are overwhelmingly behind

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the Conservative party. 95 Conservative MPs have written to the

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Prime Minister, demanding he gives the House of Commons the authority

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to veto any aspect of European Union law. Are you one of the people who

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wanted to sign that letter but you couldn't because you are minister? I

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haven't been asked to sign the letter. We need a red card system

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for European law. I'm not convinced my colleagues... I don't think it is

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realistic to have a situation where one parliament can veto laws across

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the European Union. I understand the concerns of my colleagues, but when

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we set out to renegotiate our membership, we have got to deliver

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renegotiation and deliver a system which is viable, and I'm not

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convinced we can have a situation where one Parliament can prevent

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laws across the whole European Union. So you wouldn't have signed

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this letter? I'm not sure it is the right approach. I support the system

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I just talked about. Iain Duncan Smith has suggested EU migrants

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coming to work in this country should have to wait for two years

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before they qualify for welfare benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think

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there should be an assumption that before you can move from one country

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to another, before you can start to take back from that country's social

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welfare system, you should have made a contribution to it. I spent two

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and a half years working in Brussels trying to get the European

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Commission to accept the need for change. There is a groundswell of

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opinion out there which is behind Iain Duncan Smith in what he is

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saying. I think we should push for a clear system that says people should

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be able to move from one country to get a job, but to move to another

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country to live off the state is not acceptable. You are planning a new

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2000 capacity mega prison and other smaller presence which will be run

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by private firms. After what has happened with G4S, why would you do

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that? No decision has been made about whether it will be public or

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private. What do you think it will be? I'm not sure yet. There is no

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clear correlation over public and private prisons and whether there

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are problems or otherwise. Oakwood is in its early stages, it has had

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teething problems at the start, but the rate of disturbance there is

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only typical for an average prison of its category. If you take an

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example of Parc prison in Wales a big private run prison, run by G4S,

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when it was first launched under the last government it had teething

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problems of the same kind as Oakwood and is now regarded as one of the

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best performing prisons. Why would you give it to a private company

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then? We have only just got planning permission for the so we will not be

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thinking about this for another few years. Some of the companies who run

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prisons are under investigation with dreadful track records. In the case

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of G4S, what we have experienced is acceptable and they have not been

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able to go ahead with a number of contracts they might have otherwise

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got. They are having to prove to the Government they are fit to win

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contracts from the Government again. They are having to pay compensation

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to the Government and the taxpayer. What has happened is unacceptable.

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So why would you give them a 20 0 capacity mega prison? Or anyone like

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them? It cannot be said that every private company is bad. In addition

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to problems at Oakwood, you are quite unique now in your position

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that you have managed to get the barristers out on strike the first

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time since history began. What happens if the bar refuses to do

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work at your new rates of legal aid and the courts grind to a halt? I

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don't believe that will happen. When the barristers came out on strike,

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three quarters of Crown Courts were operating normally, 95% of

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magistrates courts were operating normally. We are having to take

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difficult decisions across government, I have no desire to cut

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back lately but we are spending over ?2 billion on legal aid at the

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moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued

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misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of

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them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including

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VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their

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own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing

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this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats

:21:25.:21:30.

in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases,

:21:31.:21:33.

where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried

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hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the

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income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100,000?

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I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like

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travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for

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travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of

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figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross

:22:16.:22:22.

figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even

:22:23.:22:27.

a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need

:22:28.:22:37.

well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result

:22:38.:22:40.

well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court

:22:41.:22:52.

unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances,

:22:53.:22:55.

if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no

:22:56.:22:59.

question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge

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where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so

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many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the

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figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty, not

:23:17.:23:26.

jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures

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predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail

:23:33.:23:37.

has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there,

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you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where

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everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will

:23:49.:23:52.

often decided to his more appropriate to give a community

:23:53.:23:56.

sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people

:23:57.:24:01.

going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail

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if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal

:24:09.:24:13.

avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his

:24:14.:24:23.

name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That

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is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn

:24:29.:24:33.

we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As

:24:34.:24:38.

of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the

:24:39.:24:41.

same offence twice within a two year same offence twice within a two-year

:24:42.:24:46.

period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to

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jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another

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34,000 prison places. You haven t 34,000 prison places. You haven't

:24:58.:25:02.

got room to put bad people in jail? The courts will take the decisions,

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and it is for them to take the decisions and not me, that two men

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in a bar fight do not merit a jail sentence. These figures contain a

:25:14.:25:19.

huge amount of offences from the most minor of offences to the most

:25:20.:25:24.

despicable. Something is wrong if you can commit 300 offences and

:25:25.:25:28.

still not end up in jail. That's right, and we are taking steps so

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this cannot happen any more. Nick Clegg said this morning you are

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going to make 12 billion of welfare cuts on the back of this, he is

:25:41.:25:49.

right, isn't he? People on the lowest incomes are often not paying

:25:50.:25:57.

tax at all, the rich... But these cuts will fall disproportionately on

:25:58.:26:02.

average earners, correct? Let's look at the proposal to limit housing

:26:03.:26:09.

benefit for under 25s. Until today, after people have left school or

:26:10.:26:16.

college, the live for a time with their parents. For some, that is not

:26:17.:26:20.

possible and we will have to take that into account, but we have said

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there is a strong case for saying you will not get housing benefit

:26:25.:26:28.

until you are some years down the road and have properly established

:26:29.:26:32.

yourselves in work. And by definition these people are on lower

:26:33.:26:40.

than average salaries. Give me a case in which those on the higher

:26:41.:26:45.

tax band will contribute to the cuts. We have already put in place

:26:46.:26:50.

tax changes so that the highest tax rate is already higher than it was

:26:51.:26:54.

in every year of the last government. The amount of tax...

:26:55.:27:04.

There is no more expected of the rich. We will clearly look at future

:27:05.:27:09.

policy and work out how best to distribute the tax burden in this

:27:10.:27:12.

country and it is not for me to second-guess George Osborne's future

:27:13.:27:18.

plans, but we need to look at for example housing benefit for the

:27:19.:27:23.

under 25s. Is it right for those who are not working for the state to

:27:24.:27:29.

provide accommodation for them? Thank you for being with us.

:27:30.:27:34.

All three major parties at Westminster agree there's an urgent

:27:35.:27:37.

need to build more homes for Britain's growing population. But

:27:38.:27:40.

how they get built, and where, looks set to become a major battle ground

:27:41.:27:43.

in the run-up to the next general election.

:27:44.:27:45.

Although 16% more house-builds were started in 2012/13 than the previous

:27:46.:27:47.

year, the number actually completed fell by 8% - the lowest level in

:27:48.:27:55.

peacetime since 1920. The Office for National Statistics estimates that

:27:56.:27:58.

between now and 2021 we should expect 220,000 new households to be

:27:59.:28:05.

created every year. At his party's conference last autumn, Ed Miliband

:28:06.:28:08.

promised a Labour government would massively increase house-building. I

:28:09.:28:16.

will have a clear aim but by the end of the parliament, Britain will be

:28:17.:28:21.

building 200,000 homes per year more than at any time for a

:28:22.:28:26.

generation. That is how we make Britain better than this. The Labour

:28:27.:28:29.

leader also says he'd give urban councils a "right to grow" so rural

:28:30.:28:32.

neighbours can't block expansion and force developers with unused land to

:28:33.:28:37.

use it or lose it. The Government has been pursuing its own ideas

:28:38.:28:40.

including loan guarantees for developers and a new homes bonus to

:28:41.:28:44.

boost new house-building. But David Cameron could have trouble keeping

:28:45.:28:47.

his supporters on side - this week the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi

:28:48.:28:49.

criticised planning reforms for causing "physical harm" to the

:28:50.:28:56.

countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile prefers a radical solution - brand

:28:57.:28:59.

new garden cities in the south east of England. In a speech tomorrow,

:29:00.:29:13.

Labour's shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds will give more details

:29:14.:29:16.

of how Labour would boost house-building, and she joins me

:29:17.:29:19.

now. It is not the politicians to blame, it is the lack of

:29:20.:29:24.

house-builders? We want a vibrant building industry, and at the moment

:29:25.:29:30.

that industry is dominated by big house-builders. I want to see a more

:29:31.:29:34.

diverse and competitive industry, where self build plays a greater

:29:35.:29:40.

role. In France over 60% of new homes are built by self builders,

:29:41.:29:46.

but small builders build more homes as well. 25 years ago they were

:29:47.:29:51.

building two thirds of new homes, now they are not building even a

:29:52.:29:55.

third of new homes. That's because land policies have been so

:29:56.:29:59.

restrictive that it is only the big companies who can afford to buy the

:30:00.:30:04.

land, so little land is being released for house building. I

:30:05.:30:08.

agree, there are some fundamental structural problems with the land

:30:09.:30:12.

market and that is why we have said there doesn't just need to be

:30:13.:30:15.

tinkering around the edges, there needs to be real reforms to make

:30:16.:30:21.

sure that small builders and self build and custom-built have access

:30:22.:30:24.

to land. They are saying they have problems with access to land and

:30:25.:30:29.

finance. At the end of the day it will not be self, small builders who

:30:30.:30:36.

reach your target, it will be big builders. I think it is pretty

:30:37.:30:41.

shameful that in Western Europe the new houses built in the UK are

:30:42.:30:49.

smaller than our neighbours. But isn't not the land problem? France

:30:50.:30:54.

is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and we are and that is not a problem for

:30:55.:31:02.

them. There is a perception we are going to build on the countryside,

:31:03.:31:07.

but not even 10% is on the countryside. There is enough for us

:31:08.:31:16.

to have our golf courses. There is enough other land for us to build on

:31:17.:31:20.

that is not golf courses. The planning minister has said he wants

:31:21.:31:24.

to build our National Parks, I am not suggesting that. The single

:31:25.:31:28.

biggest land border is the public sector. It is not. There are great

:31:29.:31:34.

opportunities for releasing public land, that is why I have been asking

:31:35.:31:39.

the government, they say they are going to release and of public land

:31:40.:31:44.

for tens of thousands of new homes to be built, but they say they are

:31:45.:31:48.

not monitoring how many houses are being built on the site. When your

:31:49.:31:54.

leader says to landowners, housing development owners, either use the

:31:55.:32:00.

land or lose it, in what way will they lose it? Will you confiscated?

:32:01.:32:07.

This is about strengthening the hand of local authorities, and they say

:32:08.:32:11.

to us that in some cases, house-builders are sitting on land.

:32:12.:32:14.

In those cases, we would give the power to local authorities to

:32:15.:32:21.

escalate fees. This would be the compulsory purchase orders, a matter

:32:22.:32:27.

of last resort, and you would hope that by strengthening the hand of

:32:28.:32:34.

local authorities, you could get the house-builders to start building the

:32:35.:32:37.

homes that people want. Would you compulsory purchase it? We would

:32:38.:32:43.

give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,

:32:44.:32:49.

the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase

:32:50.:32:52.

orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build

:32:53.:32:56.

houses that we need. Can you name one report that has come back in

:32:57.:33:00.

recent years that shows that hoarding of land by house-builders

:33:01.:33:03.

is a major problem? The IMF, the Conservative mayor of London and the

:33:04.:33:08.

Local Government Association are telling us that there is a problem

:33:09.:33:11.

with land hoarding. Therefore, we have said, where there is land with

:33:12.:33:15.

planning permission, and if plots are being sat on... Boris Johnson

:33:16.:33:22.

says there are 180,000 plots in London being sat on. We need to make

:33:23.:33:25.

sure the house-builders are building the homes that young families need.

:33:26.:33:33.

They get planning permission and sell it on to the developer. There

:33:34.:33:35.

is a whole degree of complicity, but is a whole degree of complicity but

:33:36.:33:38.

there is another problem before that. That is around transparency

:33:39.:33:44.

about land options. There is agricultural land that

:33:45.:33:48.

house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.

:33:49.:33:54.

Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the

:33:55.:34:00.

south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most

:34:01.:34:05.

reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to

:34:06.:34:09.

force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to

:34:10.:34:16.

grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we

:34:17.:34:24.

want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they

:34:25.:34:27.

are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes,

:34:28.:34:30.

are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes but

:34:31.:34:33.

they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do

:34:34.:34:37.

not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with

:34:38.:34:41.

the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at

:34:42.:34:45.

?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is

:34:46.:34:48.

blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national

:34:49.:34:54.

interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot

:34:55.:35:01.

mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new

:35:02.:35:07.

homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be

:35:08.:35:10.

built, and in areas like Oxford, Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree

:35:11.:35:16.

with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served,

:35:17.:35:38.

will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can

:35:39.:35:44.

incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new

:35:45.:35:48.

towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will

:35:49.:35:54.

have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not

:35:55.:36:00.

at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to

:36:01.:36:03.

recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The big

:36:04.:36:06.

difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs

:36:07.:36:10.

Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government,

:36:11.:36:14.

we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour

:36:15.:36:19.

government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing

:36:20.:36:25.

stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour

:36:26.:36:32.

government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on

:36:33.:36:36.

this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We

:36:37.:36:40.

want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you

:36:41.:36:45.

the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the

:36:46.:36:49.

next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern

:36:50.:36:55.

programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because

:36:56.:36:58.

there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got

:36:59.:37:07.

there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes

:37:08.:37:13.

in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday

:37:14.:37:16.

Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week

:37:17.:37:19.

ahead with our political In the East Midlands: Does

:37:20.:37:35.

technology make it too easy to gamble? We hear from a man who lost

:37:36.:37:39.

bags and is using his mobile phone to place bets. I started gambling on

:37:40.:37:46.

my phone. It meant betting was more available to me, any time of day.

:37:47.:37:52.

We're talking between ?10,000 and ?15,000. And what do you want

:37:53.:37:56.

politicians to concentrate on this year, for some it is the economy.

:37:57.:38:03.

Trade is disappearing. We need help. We need a boost.

:38:04.:38:08.

And sharing their resolutions with us, Conservative MP for Sherwood,

:38:09.:38:13.

Mark Spencer, and Labour's Liz Kendall, the MP for Leicester West.

:38:14.:38:18.

The New Year has kicked off as the old one ended with bad news from our

:38:19.:38:22.

local councils as they look to balance their budgets. This week,

:38:23.:38:26.

Leicestershire County Council announced 700 jobs would go and

:38:27.:38:30.

Derby City Council says it was losing 350 staff. It comes on top of

:38:31.:38:35.

planned job losses at Nottinghamshire County Council of

:38:36.:38:40.

750 and unions warning up to 1500 could go in Derbyshire. The plans

:38:41.:38:45.

also means severe cuts in services at all of the councils. Mark

:38:46.:38:50.

Spencer, all of the councils, both Labour and Conservative, are blaming

:38:51.:38:54.

cuts imposed by your government. Are you comfortable with this level of

:38:55.:38:59.

job losses? It is huge. Some of those councils need to be smarter in

:39:00.:39:02.

the way they approach this problem. They look `` they need to find

:39:03.:39:06.

better ways of solving the problems they save `` face. Nottinghamshire

:39:07.:39:11.

County Council is a good example, they are losing jobs but at the same

:39:12.:39:16.

time, they have cut the number of council meetings. The councils have

:39:17.:39:19.

not cut their allowances. I think we can get smarter and we can look at

:39:20.:39:22.

the way they are doing those budgets. There are ways in which

:39:23.:39:25.

they can mitigate some of the pressure they are under. But what do

:39:26.:39:29.

you say to all of those thousands of people who are going to be losing

:39:30.:39:33.

their jobs? Could these losses be avoided? Some of those losses could

:39:34.:39:38.

be avoided if they were better managed councils, if I'm honest.

:39:39.:39:41.

There are ways in which they can protect those front line services,

:39:42.:39:46.

keep those jobs looking after my constituents and other people in the

:39:47.:39:49.

East Midlands, if they just operate a little bit smarter. That is no

:39:50.:39:52.

comfort to people who will lose their jobs. Absolutely. Every one of

:39:53.:39:58.

those job losses is an individual tragedy. The good news is, the

:39:59.:40:02.

economy is expanding and other people are finding jobs. If you are

:40:03.:40:04.

losing yours, that is no consolation. Councils need to be

:40:05.:40:10.

more efficient and that has got to be a good thing. Councils are

:40:11.:40:14.

working really hard to try and make how they work more efficient, by

:40:15.:40:19.

sharing backroom functions, by trying to change the way that

:40:20.:40:23.

services are run, to try and keep up the quality to our constituents

:40:24.:40:28.

would also try and make some personal efficiencies. They are

:40:29.:40:31.

facing huge cuts from central government. One of the things that

:40:32.:40:35.

many councils in this region think is unfair is that whilst some

:40:36.:40:40.

councils like the Prime Minister's own council is seeing Benny any

:40:41.:40:43.

cuts, we are having a much higher burden of cuts in this region. ``

:40:44.:40:49.

barely any cuts. The South is getting off easily, compared to our

:40:50.:40:53.

cats. You need to compare like with like. You need to compare per

:40:54.:40:58.

capita, individual members or persons within that region and how

:40:59.:41:00.

much they get each. If you compare them like that, actually, they are

:41:01.:41:07.

much closer than the analysis shows. West Oxfordshire doesn't have

:41:08.:41:10.

anywhere near the levels of deprivation or demand on services

:41:11.:41:13.

that we have in this region. I think that is the wrong kind of cut that

:41:14.:41:20.

the government is making. You can read more on those council cuts in

:41:21.:41:24.

our political editor's blog on the BBC website.

:41:25.:41:28.

I don't suppose our cash strapped councils would be tempted to turn

:41:29.:41:32.

into gambling to boost their fans but it seems more and more people

:41:33.:41:35.

are getting into debt because technology is making betting

:41:36.:41:39.

easier. This week, the House of Lords will be considering the

:41:40.:41:43.

gambling Bill. We've met a Derbyshire man who has lost

:41:44.:41:45.

thousands of pounds using his mobile phone to place bets.

:41:46.:41:51.

Admit it, we all like a little flutter from time, but what happens

:41:52.:41:57.

when new technology like the mobile phone interactive television or the

:41:58.:42:00.

Internet can transform that flutter into an addiction? Online gambling

:42:01.:42:06.

on his mobile phone wrecked Adam's marriage and plunged into serious

:42:07.:42:12.

debt this 24`year`old upholstery worker. I started gambling on my

:42:13.:42:18.

phone. It meant betting was more available to me at any time of day,

:42:19.:42:21.

it doesn't matter where I was either. If I was going out or

:42:22.:42:24.

something, I didn't have to panic and think I need to be back by this

:42:25.:42:29.

time or I need to get to the bookies for this time because I could just

:42:30.:42:31.

flicked it on my phone and away I went. How much has that cost you? We

:42:32.:42:36.

are talking between ?15,000 to ?20,000. What you need is our new

:42:37.:42:44.

application. Have you tried live streaming? You will love it. The

:42:45.:42:50.

seductive ease of betting online has transformed the gambling industry.

:42:51.:42:54.

More of us are tempted, especially the computer savvy young. If I was

:42:55.:42:59.

feeling a bit down or angry or upset, or anything like that, that

:43:00.:43:07.

is when I turned to it as a release. There are an estimated 500,000

:43:08.:43:11.

gabbling addicts in Britain and yet only 15% of online betting sites

:43:12.:43:16.

come under UK law, because they are based overseas. It is called remote

:43:17.:43:22.

gambling. Happier times, this is Adam's wedding day. He is no father

:43:23.:43:27.

to a young son. I lost a lot of money and I knew was going to be

:43:28.:43:29.

struggling. For some reason, it didn't seem to stop me. That is why

:43:30.:43:34.

there is political concern. Labour want new curbs on high Street

:43:35.:43:38.

betting shops. The government has introduced new laws to regulate

:43:39.:43:43.

so`called remote gambling. If one I was gambling someone had been

:43:44.:43:47.

ringing me up saying, we have noticed on your account in the last

:43:48.:43:52.

two hours you have put ?100 on, is everything OK? I think that would

:43:53.:43:56.

have embarrassed me enough to leave it for a little bit, thinking they

:43:57.:44:03.

are watching what I'm doing. Do you feel as though you are out of that

:44:04.:44:07.

addiction is now? There is always a chance you can slip back into it but

:44:08.:44:10.

I do feel myself, but I do feel myself, that I am more of a

:44:11.:44:13.

controlled gamble again, than a compulsive gambler. Adam watches

:44:14.:44:18.

this week's Parliamentary debate on gambling regulations. He hopes, for

:44:19.:44:22.

his sake and thousands of others, our lawmakers get it right.

:44:23.:44:28.

We are joined by Doctor Mark Griffiths from Nottingham Trent

:44:29.:44:33.

University. We heard Adam's experiences. Is this a common story?

:44:34.:44:40.

I wouldn't use the word common. There are about ?500,000 `500,000

:44:41.:44:43.

adults in the country with this problem. These problems affect other

:44:44.:44:50.

people as well. Saying it is common, the good news is, it's under 1% of

:44:51.:44:54.

the population. Politicians say they are going to address this problem

:44:55.:44:57.

with the gambling Bill. Do you think it will go far enough? The thing

:44:58.:45:02.

about the legislators, they are two steps behind the technology anyway.

:45:03.:45:06.

We, as researchers, are trying to catch up with what the new issues

:45:07.:45:11.

are going to be. There is a lot of debate about bookmakers and yet if

:45:12.:45:15.

you have a mobile phone, you are essentially carrying around a

:45:16.:45:18.

bookmaker with you anyway. Bookmakers are being unfairly

:45:19.:45:22.

treated in the sense they are highly regulated environments and yet

:45:23.:45:25.

online, we have most of the British operators not even operating in

:45:26.:45:29.

Britain because they want to save on tax. What we should be doing is

:45:30.:45:32.

tightening up regulations and making basic gambling safer. What we need

:45:33.:45:40.

to be doing is encouraging the industry itself to do more

:45:41.:45:43.

regulation and look after its customers. Just like the alcohol

:45:44.:45:48.

industry spends a lot of money educating people who drink alcohol.

:45:49.:45:52.

The gambling industry should be doing more to educate its punters.

:45:53.:45:56.

That is happening. The Association of British bookmakers for instance,

:45:57.:45:59.

I helped develop their code of conduct and what they are going to

:46:00.:46:03.

do in bookmakers, they are going to give people the chance to set time

:46:04.:46:08.

and money limits. This is great. You are pre`committing, saying that I

:46:09.:46:11.

don't want to lose more than ?20 in this machine. Those are the things

:46:12.:46:15.

that the operators can do. That is the thing. We worry about the

:46:16.:46:19.

technology which is coming into our homes and workplaces but we can

:46:20.:46:22.

harness the technology to actually help the people that are most

:46:23.:46:26.

needed. Labour brought their own gambling motion into the Commons

:46:27.:46:30.

last week, aimed at curbing the growth of fixed odds betting

:46:31.:46:35.

machines. That was defeated. Yes, we are disappointed. We want to see

:46:36.:46:39.

local councils have more powers to stop too many bookmakers and these

:46:40.:46:42.

machines posturing. We also went to see some things that would do

:46:43.:46:46.

exactly what Marcus talking about, these pop`ups which bring about a

:46:47.:46:55.

stop. The important thing is, technology is developing all the

:46:56.:46:57.

time and we are quite slow at legislators in keeping up with that

:46:58.:47:02.

pace. Does Labour regret relaxing the laws on gambling, as you did?

:47:03.:47:06.

Really, you let it get out of control, perhaps. We put in the

:47:07.:47:10.

first`ever limits of the number of these fixed betting machines. We do

:47:11.:47:14.

need to keep up with the pace of change and technology. We have seen

:47:15.:47:19.

this with all sorts of things, whether it is rise about what is

:47:20.:47:23.

said on Twitter, whether it is gambling, Internet is developing

:47:24.:47:26.

quickly and it would be good to know, what is the next thing we

:47:27.:47:28.

should be thinking about now, so that we can plan ahead? Any of us

:47:29.:47:35.

with kids, all of their lives are going online now. I have three

:47:36.:47:38.

teenagers who spend a disproportionate amount of time on

:47:39.:47:42.

line. BCA convergence of these things. `` we see. I can see video

:47:43.:47:49.

games where people will be gambling within the games. There will be

:47:50.:47:52.

gambling on social networking sites. Parents have to become more

:47:53.:47:56.

educated about what their kids are doing. My kids are the gamblers of

:47:57.:48:00.

tomorrow. If you say that, what can politicians do? Anything... What we

:48:01.:48:09.

have seen with gambling, be used to have dedicated gambling

:48:10.:48:11.

environments. Then it spread to lottery tickets in petrol stations.

:48:12.:48:15.

Now we have single site slot machines over the place. Now, what

:48:16.:48:19.

remote gambling brings us is it takes out gambling, into the home

:48:20.:48:25.

and workplace. It means that the jobs politicians get harder. We have

:48:26.:48:29.

to try and encourage the industry to help us out there. If you are in a

:48:30.:48:32.

bookmakers, you have someone behind the counter who can say, come on,

:48:33.:48:36.

Jim, don't you think you've lost enough? The challenge will come is

:48:37.:48:47.

the international element. Can you do anything with that? We have to

:48:48.:48:51.

get the industry to step up to the plate and take it. I would say to

:48:52.:48:56.

you, that is actually happening. If you look at the major players in

:48:57.:48:59.

this country, they are taking this issue seriously. With technology,

:49:00.:49:03.

particularly if you are using a smart card or online, we can track

:49:04.:49:06.

every single bet that the gambler places. There are two things which

:49:07.:49:12.

we need to do here. Part of the government's legislation that is

:49:13.:49:14.

coming forward, and we supported this, you're trying to make

:49:15.:49:18.

improvements to it is saying there should be a proper regulatory

:49:19.:49:22.

framework, even if you are based abroad. Secondly, I think we do need

:49:23.:49:25.

to educate our young people about what is coming up so they are

:49:26.:49:29.

prepared for the future and parents as well. Nobody here is against

:49:30.:49:32.

people having a bet but we've got to have a system where, if you start to

:49:33.:49:36.

see this problem gambling happening, people can take it break out of it.

:49:37.:49:43.

There is a pause so that... That is important. In academic terms,

:49:44.:49:55.

teenagers are those people who've never known a world without the

:49:56.:49:58.

Internet and they are the adults of tomorrow. As a parent who has been

:49:59.:50:04.

studying this, you must be worried about the future. No, because I am a

:50:05.:50:09.

responsible parent. When my children watch gambling type shows on

:50:10.:50:12.

television, I can say, you've seen some body win but there are always

:50:13.:50:16.

more people losing. What you've got is that this might be happening in

:50:17.:50:19.

homes and parents are not saying anything to their kids. For me,

:50:20.:50:23.

gambling is like... Gambling is off the radar. Kids have sex and alcohol

:50:24.:50:29.

education. I'm saying we should have education about gambling and even

:50:30.:50:32.

now, things like video gaming as well.

:50:33.:50:39.

This New Year promises to be a crucial 12 months in politics with

:50:40.:50:43.

more cuts to come. There is also the elections European Parliament and

:50:44.:50:47.

the battle for votes in our marginal constituencies. So, what are East

:50:48.:50:53.

Midlands politician... What should they be prioritising? We will hear

:50:54.:50:56.

what you think in a moment. Let's hear from the Liberal Democrats in

:50:57.:51:03.

the East Midlands. Residents across the East Midlands have seen Liberal

:51:04.:51:05.

Democrats running councils and they have seen the difference we can

:51:06.:51:08.

make. We've only got 2.2 candidates in Hinckley and Bosworth, it shows

:51:09.:51:14.

the difference we can make. A lot of councils have been quite lazy and

:51:15.:51:18.

they've taken the easiest option, particularly in terms of cuts. That

:51:19.:51:22.

is not always the best. In fact, it is frequently the worst thing to

:51:23.:51:25.

do. Looking at something with a fresh face in a creative way shows

:51:26.:51:30.

that we can have investment and can protect services. To do that,

:51:31.:51:35.

Liberal Democrats need votes. The East Midlands is a funny place was

:51:36.:51:37.

because the Liberal Democrats are the only party that are not

:51:38.:51:41.

represented at Westminster. We've had some recent past. If you look at

:51:42.:51:47.

similar results in the county elections this year and the strength

:51:48.:51:50.

we will have in the European elections, I think we will be back

:51:51.:51:54.

with a bounce in 2015 and we will have MPs that prove that having

:51:55.:51:58.

Liberal Democrats at the heart of government means that you've got a

:51:59.:52:02.

fairer society and a stronger economy. People know you cannot

:52:03.:52:05.

trust Labour with the economy and you cannot trust the Conservatives

:52:06.:52:09.

to be fair. Mark, what will the themes before

:52:10.:52:13.

the Conservatives in the East Midlands this year? For me, jobs,

:52:14.:52:18.

jobs, jobs. People need jobs and we need to keep pushing to make sure

:52:19.:52:23.

that the economic climate allows for businesses to expand and take more

:52:24.:52:26.

people on. If you get a job, it changes everything. I think also,

:52:27.:52:32.

flooding is quite an issue. We have been lucky this time that we've

:52:33.:52:34.

escaped over the last couple of weeks but it keeps raising its head.

:52:35.:52:38.

I'm concentrating on that. What are your aims, Liz? Tackling the

:52:39.:52:43.

problems we've got with unemployment, particularly youth

:52:44.:52:45.

unemployed and long`term unemployed in. We've got to get the banks

:52:46.:52:49.

lending to local businesses again because that is what we really need

:52:50.:52:53.

to drive growth in this region. Also, for us as a party, issues

:52:54.:52:58.

around the NHS and care for the elderly. We've seen problems

:52:59.:53:01.

building up there. We need to address them now. What kind of

:53:02.:53:06.

problems? Problems with our accident and emergency waiting times. More

:53:07.:53:11.

elderly people ending up in hospital when they don't need to. We need a

:53:12.:53:15.

strong economy and a fair society. We got to do those two things

:53:16.:53:19.

together. That could cost you votes, couldn't it? A strike me is

:53:20.:53:25.

vital. You can only do these things if they are `` if things are moving

:53:26.:53:33.

in the right direction. Going in a different direction would put all of

:53:34.:53:36.

that in jeopardy. It is nice to talk about these things that we would

:53:37.:53:39.

like to do but unless you have a strong economy, you cannot do those

:53:40.:53:42.

things. What about the European elections? That is something that

:53:43.:53:45.

Jason didn't mention. How important are they for us in the East

:53:46.:53:50.

Midlands? I think they are pretty important for the media in the West

:53:51.:54:03.

Midlands... You are not a fan? I am sure we will in the Westminster

:54:04.:54:08.

bubble. It's a question of how effective our MEPs. The European

:54:09.:54:12.

Union has a big effect on our lives. It's how effective our MEPs are in

:54:13.:54:16.

dealing with that. I am pro`Europe but I am pro a youth reformed `` I

:54:17.:54:23.

am pro a reformed Europe. I have lots of businesses in my

:54:24.:54:25.

constituency which rely on the market. We need Europe to change to

:54:26.:54:28.

make sure it focuses on the things that matter to people, jobs and

:54:29.:54:31.

growth, and to cut out the waste that is there as well. It will be

:54:32.:54:36.

important. I know people think it is a Westminster political bubble issue

:54:37.:54:39.

but actually, jobs and growth in Europe really affect us all. We

:54:40.:54:43.

heard from the politicians but what do you think? Des Coleman paid a

:54:44.:54:51.

visit to our guests's constituencies.

:54:52.:54:57.

It is a New Year so what do people want from the politicians in 2014?

:54:58.:55:03.

What do you want from your politicians? Jobs. Leicester is a

:55:04.:55:08.

black spot. A terrible place to find a job. What have you got to say? I

:55:09.:55:15.

want the government to focus on community and look after the

:55:16.:55:19.

community, where they have taken funding away from people like the

:55:20.:55:23.

disabled and special needs. Just make sure that communities have

:55:24.:55:26.

better unity and better looked after? Politicians don't preach what

:55:27.:55:32.

they practice. They are on about people having a 1% rise and

:55:33.:55:36.

feathering their own nests. I don't agree with that. We have to think

:55:37.:55:39.

about our kids as well. They are growing up now. My daughter is going

:55:40.:55:46.

to grow up and expense `` college is extensive. You don't see a sign like

:55:47.:55:52.

that too often, beware the ducks. You can tell we have come to the

:55:53.:55:56.

country. Two North Nottinghamshire, we have come. Let's find out what

:55:57.:55:59.

people want from their politicians here. I think number one is

:56:00.:56:08.

immigration. That is the thing. It does concern people. What do you

:56:09.:56:13.

want politicians to do? All of the local businesses are constricted and

:56:14.:56:19.

are disappearing. I service local businesses, cash registers, and

:56:20.:56:22.

traders disappearing. We need some help, a boost. We need more jobs.

:56:23.:56:28.

Since the pit closed in this time, nothing has replaced it, see we need

:56:29.:56:31.

a replacement of employment so we can get these young children, young

:56:32.:56:36.

girls and boys, back to work. It's important we do that. I've think we

:56:37.:56:43.

`` I think we've extended your constituency boundary their

:56:44.:56:46.

excavation mark that was a woman in your constituency. At the

:56:47.:56:51.

politicians like you tackle this? We have to get to grips with it. It

:56:52.:56:56.

comes up all the time. The state of the economy, welfare reform and

:56:57.:57:00.

immigration are the three I hear on the doorstep. I think we are doing

:57:01.:57:07.

fairly well on those but we need to make more progress as we go forward.

:57:08.:57:11.

People are talking about jobs as well. Jobs are being created, as

:57:12.:57:15.

we've heard this week, and the economy is growing quickly. I still

:57:16.:57:24.

have over 800 young people unemployed and 500 long`term

:57:25.:57:26.

unemployed. That figure is still going up. My recent jobs fair, I had

:57:27.:57:31.

700 people through the door in the day. Jobs are an issue. So too are

:57:32.:57:35.

people 's living standards. People are struggling to make ends meet. We

:57:36.:57:40.

need to do more to get better paid jobs. I think crucially to make sure

:57:41.:57:45.

our young people have skills for the future which they really need. I

:57:46.:57:48.

have some real concerns that we are not focusing on the right things in

:57:49.:57:53.

tins of what is happening in our schools. We need good quality

:57:54.:57:58.

academic education. It's a long list! It is about dealing with the

:57:59.:58:02.

problems and preparing for the future. This is one of the problems

:58:03.:58:06.

of the Labour Party. They've got a long list of things they want to

:58:07.:58:10.

spend money on but not a long list of how they are going to create that

:58:11.:58:15.

cash. 1.3 million jobs since the election in the private sector have

:58:16.:58:18.

been created. We are making good progress. If we followed the advice

:58:19.:58:21.

of Ed balls, we wouldn't be in a position we are in now. We would be

:58:22.:58:28.

in a worse position. `` Ed Balls. You have to have a strong economy to

:58:29.:58:31.

do the nice stuff that we want to do. Heading in the right direction,

:58:32.:58:37.

Liz? I really welcome any good news on jobs and growth. My concern is

:58:38.:58:41.

that the government may be repeating the mistakes of the past because of

:58:42.:58:44.

the growth is driven by debt and credit, not by jobs, in all parts of

:58:45.:58:50.

the country that we need, that will cause problems in the future. Any

:58:51.:58:54.

good news as well come but we have to make sure we have jobs and growth

:58:55.:58:57.

in this region and that it is sustainable for the long`term. Time

:58:58.:59:02.

for a round`up of some of the other political stories in the East

:59:03.:59:03.

Midlands this week. Businesses in the East Midlands have

:59:04.:59:17.

expressed concerns over plans to introduce a 60 mph limit on the M1

:59:18.:59:22.

between Mansfield and Rotherham. The highways agency says it is needed to

:59:23.:59:27.

cut emissions but local chambers of commerce say it will add to journey

:59:28.:59:31.

times and increase costs. One of the regions campaigners as a

:59:32.:59:35.

gong in the New Year 's Honours list. Marilyn Baldwin, who appeared

:59:36.:59:39.

on the programme last year, is campaigning to stop scam mail being

:59:40.:59:42.

delivered to our homes. She was awarded an OBE.

:59:43.:59:46.

Our politicians have been busy bending ministerial years this week.

:59:47.:59:52.

Anna Sebring met the Communities Secretary to ask him to review a

:59:53.:59:58.

decision to allow opencast mining. And the Nottingham North MP, Graham

:59:59.:00:03.

Allen, has met the Education Secretary to discuss what happens

:00:04.:00:05.

next to schools in Nottingham. It comes after six of the city 's

:00:06.:00:10.

secondary schools were found to be failing in a blitz by Ofsted.

:00:11.:00:16.

And next week, we will be hearing from pupils and teachers at one of

:00:17.:00:21.

those Nottingham schools, failed by Ofsted.

:00:22.:00:22.

will not be revoked. And I wouldn't want it to go. Thank you, back to

:00:23.:00:33.

Andrew. Can David Cameron get his way on EU

:00:34.:00:39.

migration? Will he ever be able to satisfy his backbenchers on Europe?

:00:40.:00:43.

Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of PMQ 's? More questions for

:00:44.:00:53.

the week ahead. We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg

:00:54.:00:57.

from his constituency in Somerset. Welcome to the programme. You one of

:00:58.:01:02.

the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed this letter? Suddenly. Laws should

:01:03.:01:09.

be made by our democratically elected representatives, not from

:01:10.:01:17.

Brussels. How could Europe work with a pick and mix in which each

:01:18.:01:25.

national parliament can decide what Brussels can be in charge of? The

:01:26.:01:31.

European Union is a supernatural body that is there for the

:01:32.:01:34.

cooperation amongst member states to do things that they jointly want to

:01:35.:01:42.

do. It ought not be there to force -- to enforce uniform rules on

:01:43.:01:44.

countries that do not want to participate. It is the vision of

:01:45.:01:47.

Europe that people joined when we signed up to it and came in in 1973.

:01:48.:01:52.

signed up to it and came in in 973. It has accreted powers to itself

:01:53.:01:56.

without having the support of the public of the member states. This is

:01:57.:02:01.

just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe

:02:02.:02:06.

altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an

:02:07.:02:11.

organisation that does some coordination and that has trade

:02:12.:02:14.

agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state.

:02:15.:02:20.

Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not

:02:21.:02:25.

to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have

:02:26.:02:28.

ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to

:02:29.:02:37.

come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our

:02:38.:02:40.

own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world.

:02:41.:02:46.

What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming

:02:47.:02:50.

from anywhere other than the EU. There is a big decrease in the

:02:51.:02:53.

number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures

:02:54.:02:59.

are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.

:03:00.:03:04.

Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we

:03:05.:03:07.

can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we

:03:08.:03:13.

need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the

:03:14.:03:16.

United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of

:03:17.:03:19.

the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But

:03:20.:03:28.

there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from

:03:29.:03:32.

the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour

:03:33.:03:38.

Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom

:03:39.:03:44.

about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming

:03:45.:03:51.

here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are

:03:52.:03:56.

behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your

:03:57.:03:59.

benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that

:04:00.:04:06.

might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!

:04:07.:04:16.

Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not? We

:04:17.:04:22.

have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied

:04:23.:04:25.

us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every

:04:26.:04:32.

piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It

:04:33.:04:36.

would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can

:04:37.:04:42.

not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised

:04:43.:04:48.

that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret

:04:49.:04:51.

Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,

:04:52.:04:57.

and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said

:04:58.:05:01.

the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national

:05:02.:05:05.

vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French

:05:06.:05:09.

will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret

:05:10.:05:13.

Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How

:05:14.:05:17.

could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes

:05:18.:05:29.

mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes

:05:30.:05:31.

mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine

:05:32.:05:38.

Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as

:05:39.:05:46.

an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be

:05:47.:05:49.

interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and

:05:50.:05:53.

import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single

:05:54.:05:58.

market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to

:05:59.:06:04.

determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide

:06:05.:06:07.

the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,

:06:08.:06:11.

that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is

:06:12.:06:17.

more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it

:06:18.:06:23.

will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be

:06:24.:06:28.

worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever

:06:29.:06:34.

letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood

:06:35.:06:40.

up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is

:06:41.:06:44.

dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the

:06:45.:06:49.

EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European

:06:50.:06:53.

law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the

:06:54.:06:58.

Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The

:06:59.:07:03.

political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next

:07:04.:07:08.

election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off

:07:09.:07:12.

a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of

:07:13.:07:16.

this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in

:07:17.:07:23.

coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of

:07:24.:07:26.

the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to

:07:27.:07:31.

do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron

:07:32.:07:34.

is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked

:07:35.:07:39.

over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a

:07:40.:07:44.

counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,

:07:45.:07:49.

because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom

:07:50.:07:55.

other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,

:07:56.:08:01.

Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.

:08:02.:08:06.

That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.

:08:07.:08:12.

We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and

:08:13.:08:15.

spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are

:08:16.:08:22.

all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational

:08:23.:08:28.

organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a

:08:29.:08:31.

political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John

:08:32.:08:35.

Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing

:08:36.:08:40.

deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick

:08:41.:08:50.

question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way

:08:51.:08:53.

in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper

:08:54.:08:58.

meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of

:08:59.:09:01.

Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord

:09:02.:09:09.

Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.

:09:10.:09:13.

I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not.

:09:14.:09:18.

I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not PMQ

:09:19.:09:24.

's, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house

:09:25.:09:30.

was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime

:09:31.:09:33.

ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until

:09:34.:09:38.

now. What is clear is that he is

:09:39.:09:42.

floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy

:09:43.:09:47.

price freeze. The difference is John Major is a good man, the Right

:09:48.:09:51.

Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical

:09:52.:09:57.

profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,

:09:58.:10:01.

and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of

:10:02.:10:07.

touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you

:10:08.:10:12.

are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband

:10:13.:10:20.

trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to

:10:21.:10:25.

do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers

:10:26.:10:27.

questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul

:10:28.:10:33.

Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the

:10:34.:10:38.

first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall

:10:39.:10:43.

over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a

:10:44.:10:47.

more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron

:10:48.:10:52.

started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I

:10:53.:10:56.

would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote

:10:57.:11:02.

which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon

:11:03.:11:06.

Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.

:11:07.:11:12.

Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of

:11:13.:11:18.

Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting

:11:19.:11:23.

their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I

:11:24.:11:27.

sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is

:11:28.:11:31.

the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull

:11:32.:11:39.

as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch

:11:40.:11:44.

and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy

:11:45.:11:49.

this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from

:11:50.:11:53.

Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,

:11:54.:12:00.

the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify

:12:01.:12:05.

substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not

:12:06.:12:11.

necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising

:12:12.:12:13.

industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been

:12:14.:12:16.

hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no

:12:17.:12:20.

money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but

:12:21.:12:24.

you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without

:12:25.:12:29.

expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will

:12:30.:12:34.

survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is

:12:35.:12:40.

that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial

:12:41.:12:44.

state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure

:12:45.:12:49.

spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info

:12:50.:12:52.

structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the

:12:53.:12:57.

idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is

:12:58.:13:01.

something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once

:13:02.:13:06.

thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have

:13:07.:13:12.

delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to

:13:13.:13:19.

deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily

:13:20.:13:23.

Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I

:13:24.:13:28.

aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is

:13:29.:13:33.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:39.

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