30/03/2014 Sunday Politics East Midlands


30/03/2014

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With energy and climate change secretary Ed Davey and Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael.


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:41.

Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or

:00:42.:00:45.

the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the

:00:46.:00:49.

Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better

:00:50.:00:52.

Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish

:00:53.:00:58.

Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?

:00:59.:01:00.

They could be heading And in the East Midlands: The cuts

:01:01.:01:06.

to mental health services which put patients and the public at risk.

:01:07.:01:10.

And talk like an East Midlander ` should politicians sound more like

:01:11.:01:11.

us? In London, changes to the authority

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which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political

:01:16.:01:18.

move designed to silence his critics.

:01:19.:01:24.

And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the

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business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.

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But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest

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and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,

:01:38.:01:45.

Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been

:01:52.:01:54.

unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the

:01:55.:01:57.

rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister

:01:58.:02:02.

spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the

:02:03.:02:07.

Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence

:02:08.:02:12.

campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when

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the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were

:02:16.:02:20.

going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that

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campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in

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Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.

:02:26.:02:36.

Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no

:02:37.:02:42.

campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have

:02:43.:02:50.

got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have

:02:51.:02:55.

got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we

:02:56.:03:01.

are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the

:03:02.:03:05.

possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think

:03:06.:03:09.

that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it

:03:10.:03:13.

against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a

:03:14.:03:17.

detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England,

:03:18.:03:20.

Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would

:03:21.:03:24.

not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the

:03:25.:03:28.

permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is

:03:29.:03:32.

such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with

:03:33.:03:36.

it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the

:03:37.:03:42.

force of argument is very much against those of us who want to

:03:43.:03:46.

remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the

:03:47.:03:50.

day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland, a

:03:51.:03:54.

deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is

:03:55.:03:58.

nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 20

:03:59.:04:04.

years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in

:04:05.:04:07.

Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the

:04:08.:04:11.

UK. That is perfectly plausible, isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is

:04:12.:04:18.

simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.

:04:19.:04:21.

What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials

:04:22.:04:26.

saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of

:04:27.:04:29.

England Wales, Northern Ireland, any more than it is in the interests of

:04:30.:04:36.

people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not

:04:37.:04:43.

change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?

:04:44.:04:50.

I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe

:04:51.:04:54.

Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish

:04:55.:04:58.

Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not

:04:59.:05:02.

sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from

:05:03.:05:06.

Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have

:05:07.:05:11.

not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the

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questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too

:05:16.:05:27.

negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found

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you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,

:05:30.:05:33.

isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the

:05:34.:05:37.

people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes,

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there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing

:05:44.:05:48.

a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which

:05:49.:05:55.

actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come

:05:56.:05:59.

September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to

:06:00.:06:02.

say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of

:06:03.:06:07.

the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll

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said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the

:06:14.:06:18.

don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you

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yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act

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together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,

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to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists

:06:34.:06:37.

could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the

:06:38.:06:41.

United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the

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polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,

:06:46.:06:50.

they think this will not happen. It can happen. I have got to tell

:06:51.:07:05.

everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an

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enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their

:07:08.:07:10.

disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in

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football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what

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is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in

:07:18.:07:21.

place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.

:07:22.:07:29.

Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know

:07:30.:07:35.

what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to

:07:36.:07:42.

blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there

:07:43.:07:46.

will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.

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But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the

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deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls

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which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite

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rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down

:08:04.:08:09.

the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year, not

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just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy

:08:13.:08:16.

negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving

:08:17.:08:21.

places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen

:08:22.:08:25.

then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts

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about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising

:08:30.:08:33.

that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow

:08:34.:08:37.

Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary

:08:38.:08:43.

union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in

:08:44.:08:47.

a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear

:08:48.:08:50.

submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,

:08:51.:08:56.

probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think

:08:57.:09:00.

whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If

:09:01.:09:04.

the Scots vote for independence, of course a deal will be done about the

:09:05.:09:09.

currency because it is not in London's interests to have a

:09:10.:09:12.

rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not

:09:13.:09:16.

done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is

:09:17.:09:27.

different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on

:09:28.:09:30.

the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without

:09:31.:09:34.

any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if

:09:35.:09:38.

the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except

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it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go

:09:44.:09:49.

down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the

:09:50.:09:52.

financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would

:09:53.:09:56.

rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary

:09:57.:10:00.

of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much

:10:01.:10:03.

money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major

:10:04.:10:06.

parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is

:10:07.:10:11.

bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think

:10:12.:10:14.

that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex

:10:15.:10:19.

Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big

:10:20.:10:23.

establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my

:10:24.:10:30.

football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no

:10:31.:10:38.

vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left

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which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex

:10:43.:10:46.

Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding

:10:47.:10:53.

from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being

:10:54.:10:56.

incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not

:10:57.:11:00.

want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of

:11:01.:11:03.

million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a

:11:04.:11:07.

bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's

:11:08.:11:10.

very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.

:11:11.:11:18.

High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six

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energy companies account for 95% of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem

:11:27.:11:33.

said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price

:11:34.:11:38.

rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets

:11:39.:11:40.

authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken

:11:41.:11:45.

up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica

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made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if

:11:50.:11:53.

you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare

:11:54.:11:58.

margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a

:11:59.:12:02.

surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to

:12:03.:12:08.

historically low levels in 2016, according to Ofgem. Normally at

:12:09.:12:13.

around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that

:12:14.:12:18.

could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light

:12:19.:12:22.

switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me

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now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak

:12:29.:12:36.

winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2%

:12:37.:12:41.

next winter or the winter after. We will keep the lights on, that is for

:12:42.:12:47.

clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.

:12:48.:12:50.

The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day

:12:51.:12:54.

one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been 8

:12:55.:13:02.

billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now

:13:03.:13:06.

heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have

:13:07.:13:11.

been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,

:13:12.:13:16.

we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are

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showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done

:13:20.:13:25.

enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate

:13:26.:13:30.

huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline

:13:31.:13:33.

investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.

:13:34.:13:37.

None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter

:13:38.:13:42.

or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,

:13:43.:13:50.

or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.

:13:51.:13:57.

It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing

:13:58.:14:01.

anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are

:14:02.:14:06.

able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are

:14:07.:14:10.

connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we

:14:11.:14:16.

get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.

:14:17.:14:22.

You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last

:14:23.:14:28.

July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would

:14:29.:14:33.

not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on

:14:34.:14:40.

schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a

:14:41.:14:44.

single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the

:14:45.:14:52.

ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do

:14:53.:14:57.

an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of

:14:58.:15:01.

interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.

:15:02.:15:04.

There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that

:15:05.:15:08.

can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take

:15:09.:15:12.

and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.

:15:13.:15:17.

We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision

:15:18.:15:33.

will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North

:15:34.:15:35.

America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed

:15:36.:15:38.

plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a

:15:39.:15:47.

problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from

:15:48.:15:54.

2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be

:15:55.:15:57.

so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was

:15:58.:16:02.

cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've

:16:03.:16:05.

known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of

:16:06.:16:09.

their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to

:16:10.:16:12.

increase the rate of investment, but we... That shows clearly you are

:16:13.:16:20.

closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you

:16:21.:16:23.

have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are

:16:24.:16:27.

coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased

:16:28.:16:31.

the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under

:16:32.:16:34.

the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the

:16:35.:16:39.

beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are

:16:40.:16:46.

historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a

:16:47.:16:51.

huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins

:16:52.:16:56.

between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is

:16:57.:17:02.

costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People

:17:03.:17:06.

have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a

:17:07.:17:10.

short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a

:17:11.:17:14.

long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between

:17:15.:17:15.

nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between

:17:16.:17:39.

on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has

:17:40.:17:47.

increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the

:17:48.:17:56.

report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been

:17:57.:17:59.

working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we

:18:00.:18:04.

have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on

:18:05.:18:08.

if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but

:18:09.:18:14.

demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to

:18:15.:18:18.

off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,

:18:19.:18:22.

and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the

:18:23.:18:26.

Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks

:18:27.:18:30.

for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around

:18:31.:18:33.

for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to

:18:34.:18:39.

expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into,

:18:40.:18:42.

haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,

:18:43.:18:50.

dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at

:18:51.:18:55.

the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range

:18:56.:19:05.

of power companies who are building a new power station and want to

:19:06.:19:10.

build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100

:19:11.:19:13.

billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore

:19:14.:19:17.

capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the

:19:18.:19:21.

Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to

:19:22.:19:26.

expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We

:19:27.:19:31.

have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is

:19:32.:19:36.

happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say

:19:37.:19:41.

it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we

:19:42.:19:45.

have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at

:19:46.:19:50.

independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to

:19:51.:19:54.

invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore

:19:55.:19:57.

wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only

:19:58.:20:00.

countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker

:20:01.:20:05.

picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an

:20:06.:20:10.

investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.

:20:11.:20:15.

Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,

:20:16.:20:20.

only one started under your watch for the others were done under

:20:21.:20:23.

Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled

:20:24.:20:28.

back from further investment including new offshore wind

:20:29.:20:31.

investment and none of what you're talking about will come before 2020

:20:32.:20:37.

anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,

:20:38.:20:40.

the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I

:20:41.:20:44.

capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2020,

:20:45.:20:51.

so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have

:20:52.:20:54.

no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.

:20:55.:20:59.

Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones

:21:00.:21:04.

you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a

:21:05.:21:09.

short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan,

:21:10.:21:13.

auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed

:21:14.:21:16.

plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long-term

:21:17.:21:22.

plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be

:21:23.:21:26.

built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's

:21:27.:21:30.

a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more

:21:31.:21:35.

expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap

:21:36.:21:38.

energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices

:21:39.:21:44.

is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You

:21:45.:21:51.

have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.

:21:52.:22:02.

All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low

:22:03.:22:11.

Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the

:22:12.:22:16.

last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys

:22:17.:22:20.

prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the

:22:21.:22:24.

Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the

:22:25.:22:28.

time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas

:22:29.:22:32.

could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by

:22:33.:22:35.

the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per

:22:36.:22:41.

megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.

:22:42.:22:50.

Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,

:22:51.:22:53.

Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is

:22:54.:22:57.

an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power

:22:58.:23:01.

plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices

:23:02.:23:06.

except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations

:23:07.:23:11.

paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper

:23:12.:23:15.

carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's

:23:16.:23:20.

very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the

:23:21.:23:24.

pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in

:23:25.:23:29.

May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.

:23:30.:23:34.

You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure

:23:35.:23:39.

is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the

:23:40.:23:45.

first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.

:23:46.:23:53.

If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their

:23:54.:23:58.

partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about

:23:59.:24:04.

lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than

:24:05.:24:10.

the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are

:24:11.:24:15.

targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that

:24:16.:24:19.

that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say

:24:20.:24:24.

that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few

:24:25.:24:28.

years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a

:24:29.:24:34.

single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That's

:24:35.:24:38.

what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in

:24:39.:24:43.

technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in

:24:44.:24:46.

mobile phones to start off with, they were expensive, and they were

:24:47.:24:55.

clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put

:24:56.:25:00.

the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on

:25:01.:25:04.

investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will

:25:05.:25:10.

guarantee them a return of 10% - 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't

:25:11.:25:14.

that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two

:25:15.:25:19.

separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply

:25:20.:25:23.

retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale

:25:24.:25:28.

side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are

:25:29.:25:32.

comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to

:25:33.:25:38.

do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,

:25:39.:25:41.

there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we

:25:42.:25:50.

haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever

:25:51.:25:54.

happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the

:25:55.:25:58.

verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going

:25:59.:26:02.

nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press

:26:03.:26:04.

officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains

:26:05.:26:07.

some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had

:26:08.:26:11.

a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats

:26:12.:26:14.

in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest

:26:15.:26:17.

party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite

:26:18.:26:21.

concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote

:26:22.:26:32.

increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as

:26:33.:26:35.

anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and

:26:36.:26:38.

forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is

:26:39.:26:43.

that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,

:26:44.:26:46.

electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.

:26:47.:26:56.

For a number of years they were performing better than the UK

:26:57.:26:59.

Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.

:27:00.:27:03.

The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other

:27:04.:27:06.

groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't

:27:07.:27:10.

go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party

:27:11.:27:13.

was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have

:27:14.:27:19.

known that at the outset. In 2006 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won

:27:20.:27:22.

12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour

:27:23.:27:25.

council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing

:27:26.:27:34.

concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different

:27:35.:27:37.

nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over

:27:38.:27:41.

everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I

:27:42.:27:47.

would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here.

:27:48.:27:53.

When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a

:27:54.:27:57.

second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find

:27:58.:28:02.

non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even

:28:03.:28:05.

though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white

:28:06.:28:10.

working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent,

:28:11.:28:14.

everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On

:28:15.:28:21.

behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,

:28:22.:28:26.

that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local

:28:27.:28:30.

Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we

:28:31.:28:38.

could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the

:28:39.:28:41.

council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.

:28:42.:28:45.

But what beat the BNP here in 2010 was a mobilisation of the Labour

:28:46.:28:48.

vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the

:28:49.:28:52.

same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years

:28:53.:29:00.

ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing

:29:01.:29:04.

around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and

:29:05.:29:08.

stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now

:29:09.:29:12.

it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.

:29:13.:29:17.

If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not

:29:18.:29:22.

in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.

:29:23.:29:26.

I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say

:29:27.:29:31.

in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist

:29:32.:29:35.

but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of

:29:36.:29:39.

UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the

:29:40.:29:42.

party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is

:29:43.:29:51.

closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose

:29:52.:29:53.

amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were

:29:54.:30:10.

thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his

:30:11.:30:14.

appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP,

:30:15.:30:17.

something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.

:30:18.:30:27.

This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John

:30:28.:30:33.

Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He

:30:34.:30:37.

went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some

:30:38.:30:40.

voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here

:30:41.:30:44.

has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins

:30:45.:30:52.

me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you

:30:53.:30:56.

had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on

:30:57.:31:02.

the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is

:31:03.:31:08.

very negative as I would expect. The party has faced a few problems. The

:31:09.:31:13.

main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country

:31:14.:31:19.

faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European

:31:20.:31:24.

elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were

:31:25.:31:34.

denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take

:31:35.:31:39.

place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer

:31:40.:31:44.

movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL

:31:45.:31:52.

is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not

:31:53.:31:58.

a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took

:31:59.:32:02.

a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this

:32:03.:32:08.

stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless

:32:09.:32:13.

promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on

:32:14.:32:16.

this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.

:32:17.:32:22.

Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will

:32:23.:32:27.

probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across

:32:28.:32:32.

Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I

:32:33.:32:39.

reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and

:32:40.:32:56.

Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are

:32:57.:33:01.

on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I

:33:02.:33:05.

was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party

:33:06.:33:10.

did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and

:33:11.:33:14.

Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was

:33:15.:33:17.

true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader

:33:18.:33:23.

who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy.

:33:24.:33:29.

No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is

:33:30.:33:35.

irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs

:33:36.:33:41.

and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the

:33:42.:33:46.

European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose

:33:47.:33:54.

seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far

:33:55.:34:00.

right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin

:34:01.:34:11.

appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is

:34:12.:34:16.

part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with

:34:17.:34:24.

them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am

:34:25.:34:27.

perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible

:34:28.:34:32.

reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when

:34:33.:34:36.

will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely

:34:37.:34:43.

for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and

:34:44.:34:51.

self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to

:34:52.:34:56.

Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in

:34:57.:35:02.

Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just

:35:03.:35:06.

an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is

:35:07.:35:13.

completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the

:35:14.:35:17.

polls, performance at elections, the problem with your leadership is you

:35:18.:35:22.

are now going the way of the National front, heading for

:35:23.:35:26.

oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the

:35:27.:35:31.

problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years

:35:32.:35:36.

ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not

:35:37.:35:41.

around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a

:35:42.:35:45.

prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.

:35:46.:35:49.

That will lead to huge problems. Only the British National Party are

:35:50.:35:53.

prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing

:35:54.:35:59.

this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how

:36:00.:36:03.

irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New

:36:04.:36:08.

Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would

:36:09.:36:13.

turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they

:36:14.:36:17.

put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of

:36:18.:36:21.

bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.

:36:22.:36:24.

You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in

:36:25.:36:27.

Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in

:36:28.:36:31.

In the East Midlands: A growing crisis in mental health care ` poor

:36:32.:36:43.

service in our hospitals and patients relying on cash`strapped

:36:44.:36:55.

charities. They give me food parcels, he comes round to my house

:36:56.:36:59.

every week and helps me with bills. I suffer from mental health problems

:37:00.:37:02.

and alcohol problems. And talk like an East Midlander!

:37:03.:37:05.

Should politicians be speaking our language to get their ideas across?

:37:06.:37:11.

We don't understand what they're saying. One minute it's one thing,

:37:12.:37:15.

the next time we see them on TV there's saying the opposite. They

:37:16.:37:19.

don't want us to know what they're doing.

:37:20.:37:21.

Hello, I'm John Hess, and my guests this week, two politicians who

:37:22.:37:25.

always tell it how it is ` Stephen Dorrell, the Conservative MP for

:37:26.:37:27.

Charnwood in Leicestershire, and John Mann, who's Labour's MP for

:37:28.:37:33.

Bassetlaw in North Nottinghamshire. But first, the news that Atos is

:37:34.:37:36.

pulling out of its contract to carry out assessments to see if people on

:37:37.:37:40.

benefits are fit to work. It's an issue we've looked at before ` back

:37:41.:37:44.

in November, we featured a Derbyshire man, Gary Swift, who has

:37:45.:37:50.

one arm. He told us he'd been asked if his arm would grow back at an

:37:51.:37:53.

Atos interview, although the company denied the claim. And the Bolsover

:37:54.:38:05.

MP Dennis Skinner launched a savage attack in the House of Commons over

:38:06.:38:08.

the case of a constituent he said had died from cancer whilst

:38:09.:38:11.

appealing against an Atos decision that he was fit to work. Two things

:38:12.:38:17.

the Prime Minister should do. One, with immediate effect, make a

:38:18.:38:24.

payment to his widow to cover the suffering, the pain and the loss of

:38:25.:38:30.

income. And secondly, abolish this cruel, heartless monster called

:38:31.:38:37.

Atos. Get rid of it. A typically powerful argument from

:38:38.:38:40.

Dennis Skinner there. Stephen Dorrell, did David Cameron take that

:38:41.:38:51.

advice on board? I think many MPs, myself included, have had cases in

:38:52.:38:56.

their constituency surgeries where the service delivered by this

:38:57.:39:02.

business was not what we would want to see, which is why the government

:39:03.:39:06.

takes action to change the service so that it does meet standards.

:39:07.:39:14.

There are no party politics in this. Atos were appointed in 2008 by

:39:15.:39:19.

predecessors. They did not deliver. They will be changed. Who will take

:39:20.:39:27.

it on? The ministers made it clear that they are open to proposals from

:39:28.:39:34.

a wide range of potential partners. No party politics in this? Well,

:39:35.:39:41.

good riddance to bad rubbish. That is what they were. They were just

:39:42.:39:53.

stitching decent people up. But Labour introduced it in the first

:39:54.:39:58.

place. It was a bad Labour decision and this lot have worsened it,

:39:59.:40:03.

telling them, here are your targets, not treating the disabled as human

:40:04.:40:11.

beings, but as economic fodder. Will not a future Labour government have

:40:12.:40:17.

to have a similar setup? We need doctors to make an assessment and

:40:18.:40:20.

the NHS are the ones that should be doing that, deciding how disabled

:40:21.:40:27.

people are and what help they need. Is that practical? I don't think it

:40:28.:40:34.

is necessary to have a doctor doing everyone a doctor doing every one of

:40:35.:40:38.

these assessments. The assessment is fair and when people cannot qualify,

:40:39.:40:49.

we should all agree that the amounts are set.

:40:50.:40:56.

Next, there are warnings that cuts in mental health treatment are

:40:57.:40:59.

putting patients and the public at risk. Unions say some parts of the

:41:00.:41:03.

East Midlands are facing a 25% cut in the number of mental health

:41:04.:41:06.

workers, who treat some of the most vulnerable people in our society.

:41:07.:41:09.

Chris Doidge has been taking a closer look.

:41:10.:41:17.

In Derbyshire, Donovan tells me about his experience of getting help

:41:18.:41:22.

for mental illness. You seem to go in and they've got one key worker.

:41:23.:41:28.

Sorry, that keyword is off. Or they change your work. See you have to go

:41:29.:41:31.

through your life story again and again. It happened this year about

:41:32.:41:35.

three times already and it's only March. Many of the charities helping

:41:36.:41:42.

people with mental illness have found their funding squeezed. Derby

:41:43.:41:46.

City Council have taken away all the funding, which has caused

:41:47.:41:51.

operational difficulties. We're going to have to reduce the

:41:52.:41:57.

involvement. They're been cut across the mental health sector. Firstly,

:41:58.:42:02.

local councils have reduced grant funding. Secondly, in the NHS,

:42:03.:42:07.

mental health trusts have had to reduce the number of beds available

:42:08.:42:09.

because of the financial pressure they are under. Among the mental

:42:10.:42:14.

health units in trouble in recent years, this one at the Glenfield

:42:15.:42:19.

Hospital in Leicester. After several bad reports from the Care Quality

:42:20.:42:22.

Commission, health bosses say there are signs of improvement. I was

:42:23.:42:28.

really pleased to see some improvements. I'm a doctor in my

:42:29.:42:33.

background, a psychiatrist, so it is heartening to see the improvements

:42:34.:42:38.

that have been made. Some of the comments that have been made so

:42:39.:42:42.

serious that you wonder whether a health trust should have identified

:42:43.:42:47.

some of problems itself. I agree. We collect hundreds of pieces of

:42:48.:42:53.

information and were doing so, but we really have to focus on the

:42:54.:42:57.

important pieces of information. What are patients and staff saying

:42:58.:43:00.

about our services? With the recommend them? Savings in the NHS

:43:01.:43:08.

partly depend on councils tackling mental illness earlier. In

:43:09.:43:10.

Nottinghamshire, there are fears that the opposite will happen. The

:43:11.:43:16.

council is planning to cut by 25% all social care jobs. That is a

:43:17.:43:28.

dramatic cut in the service. Demographic changes and better

:43:29.:43:32.

awareness mean mental health is becoming a bigger and bigger issue.

:43:33.:43:36.

But in the East Midlands, as in the UK more widely, the funding for

:43:37.:43:42.

mental health is not keeping pace. Well, Nottinghamshire County Council

:43:43.:43:44.

told us they're prioritising mental health services, with ?10 million

:43:45.:43:47.

pounds dedicated to it next year. But they also say they're having to

:43:48.:43:51.

make cuts to services for vulnerable people because of government

:43:52.:43:54.

cutbacks. And that's an issue Mark Simms knows all about.

:43:55.:43:57.

Mark Simms is the chief executive of the Derbyshire charity P3, which

:43:58.:44:06.

works with vulnerable people. What are some of the problems you deal

:44:07.:44:17.

with? The simple truth of it is these cuts are impacting harshly on

:44:18.:44:21.

people with mental health problems from two angles. One, the welfare

:44:22.:44:25.

benefit reform and the impact that is happening `` having. But also the

:44:26.:44:35.

cuts to social care. There is no requirement, no statutory duty to

:44:36.:44:40.

support vulnerable people. There are duties to do other things, but if

:44:41.:44:43.

you are simply someone vulnerable with a set of need, there is no

:44:44.:44:50.

statutory requirement to support you. We're talking about people who

:44:51.:44:56.

present with multiple and complex needs. People who sometimes get

:44:57.:45:00.

letters they don't understand, they fall behind in their rent. It is a

:45:01.:45:04.

downward spiral because there is no safety net to stop that happening.

:45:05.:45:15.

Stephen Dorrell, this will not come as a surprise to because of the

:45:16.:45:20.

report you published last year. A quote said the situation was so bad

:45:21.:45:24.

it was an infringement of the human rights of patients. What did your

:45:25.:45:30.

committee mean by that? We published several reports on mental health

:45:31.:45:38.

services. That particular quote I think refers to the abuse of

:45:39.:45:48.

sectioning powers. The NHS is allowed to treat patients

:45:49.:45:54.

compulsorily in closely defined circumstances and occasionally we

:45:55.:45:56.

were concerned some psychiatrists have been abusing that power to

:45:57.:46:00.

subject people to compulsory medical treatment that they did not want.

:46:01.:46:08.

That was the abuse of human rights. What I agree with Mark about is the

:46:09.:46:12.

need to ensure there is proper provision in the community to enable

:46:13.:46:23.

people to leave `` to lead lives. This is why the government has

:46:24.:46:26.

introduced what is known as the better care fund, which is doing

:46:27.:46:29.

something health ministers have talked about for half a century.

:46:30.:46:33.

They are making the health service and the social care system work more

:46:34.:46:39.

closely together to join them up in order to deliver better care for

:46:40.:46:42.

elderly people and for other people who suffer. Is this the picture you

:46:43.:46:51.

recognise? These are the sneaky NHS cuts. The cuts next year will be

:46:52.:46:54.

bigger than this year. The year after that will be bigger still.

:46:55.:46:58.

They say they are not cutting the NHS but these are massive cuts.

:46:59.:47:02.

Local authorities will have to cope even more in the future. This is

:47:03.:47:09.

precisely what is going to get cut. Are these cuts underhand? We are

:47:10.:47:18.

carrying out what the Health Select Committee has set out. It was first

:47:19.:47:25.

set out in 2009, this challenge, by Andy Burnham when he was Health

:47:26.:47:28.

Secretary. The resources available to the health and care system are

:47:29.:47:32.

certainly more constrained than they were in the last decade. That is

:47:33.:47:37.

precisely why we need to address some of these gaps in services, so

:47:38.:47:44.

people don't fall down the cracks in the way that was illustrated there.

:47:45.:47:51.

Loads of people are falling through the cracks. But many more will next

:47:52.:47:54.

year. For families who have someone with mental health problems, who

:47:55.:48:00.

needs that treatment, it is going to be horrendous. The government is not

:48:01.:48:06.

prepared to be honest and allow the public to have a debate about it.

:48:07.:48:10.

They are claiming there are no cuts. These are massive cuts and mental

:48:11.:48:14.

health is taking the brunt of them. What is your reaction to all this?

:48:15.:48:17.

What impact do you think it will have going forward? I think there

:48:18.:48:24.

are not cracks appearing, there are enormous crevasses. Voluntary sector

:48:25.:48:34.

funding is being cut by 80%, 100% in some cases. Where are these cases

:48:35.:48:43.

going to do `` to go? Were talking about families in real chaos

:48:44.:48:48.

sometimes. And sometimes it is small interventions that prevent that. We

:48:49.:48:52.

get a link them into support, more solid structures of how to live and

:48:53.:48:57.

survive. But the support that we provide, when that is taken away,

:48:58.:49:00.

people try to access that support through the health care system and

:49:01.:49:06.

put those systems under more pressure. It is a downward spiral.

:49:07.:49:12.

You are a former Health Secretary, chairman of a highly influential

:49:13.:49:16.

select committee of MPs. What can be done to sort this out? This is why

:49:17.:49:23.

the health committee were doing a review of the child and adolescent

:49:24.:49:29.

mental health services. Some of the biggest problems in the mental

:49:30.:49:33.

health world are to be found in those services for children and

:49:34.:49:36.

adolescents. In particular, when they leave the child and adolescent

:49:37.:49:41.

service and going into the adult service. At a time when resources

:49:42.:49:47.

are more constrained than they were, there is no point denying that, it

:49:48.:49:54.

is clearly true and likely to remain true after the election, whatever

:49:55.:49:59.

the results, but that is why it is so important to ensure the services

:50:00.:50:03.

are properly designed to avoid people falling between different

:50:04.:50:10.

elements of the service. Money is tight and mental health has surely

:50:11.:50:14.

always been the Cinderella of the health service. And it will become

:50:15.:50:19.

more so. Where will these people and out? On the streets, in crime, in

:50:20.:50:25.

prison. So eventually, we will all have to pay for it. This is the

:50:26.:50:31.

wrong kind of cut. Vulnerable people are going to be terribly hurt. The

:50:32.:50:37.

argument in a sense is stronger than that. So often, they don't end up

:50:38.:50:42.

where you say. They actually end up in acute hospitals when they don't

:50:43.:50:49.

need to be. It is by improving community services and links with

:50:50.:50:51.

the voluntary sector as well statutory services that we can

:50:52.:50:59.

enable people to lead better lives. Mark, what do you think? It is a bit

:51:00.:51:07.

smoke and mirrors. We have to leave it there, I'm afraid.

:51:08.:51:12.

Some plain speaking from both of our politicians there. But is there

:51:13.:51:15.

enough of that around? Last week, John Mann, you said Ed Miliband

:51:16.:51:19.

needs to talk more like they do in Bassetlaw rather than Hampstead.

:51:20.:51:21.

We'll get your views shortly, but first, Des has been to Bassetlaw to

:51:22.:51:28.

get the local lingo. Do politicians speak our language?

:51:29.:51:36.

To find out, we are here in Worksop on the high street, or as a

:51:37.:51:41.

politician might say, an area with potential for retail and catering

:51:42.:51:45.

opportunities. They speak a load of rubbish. They all speak the same.

:51:46.:51:54.

They learn it at university. They don't really conversed with the

:51:55.:52:00.

normal person in the street. I don't really listen to it. If they spoke

:52:01.:52:04.

more like the common man, would you get more into it? Probably. Just

:52:05.:52:13.

normal English, no fancy words, just ordinary. Like normal people on the

:52:14.:52:20.

street. Wide evening a taut jargon? I've no idea. `` why do you think

:52:21.:52:31.

they'd talk in jargon? It probably makes them feel better. One minute

:52:32.:52:37.

they're saying one thing, the next time we see them on telly they are

:52:38.:52:45.

saying the complete opposite. They don't speak plain English that

:52:46.:52:49.

ordinary people can understand. Wide evening they do that? `` why do you

:52:50.:53:00.

think they do that? Because they don't want you to know what they are

:53:01.:53:10.

doing. That should be obvious. Were there any surprises there? No

:53:11.:53:24.

surprises whatsoever. Politicians could have some real fun. Starting

:53:25.:53:29.

to use the same phrases ` it's the right thing to do. It's incredibly

:53:30.:53:35.

important. Hard`working families. This kind of jargon time and time

:53:36.:53:41.

again, the political class is separating itself and is going to

:53:42.:53:46.

pay a heavy price. Have you used that phrase? I tried to avoid

:53:47.:53:53.

jargon, I can't say that has never passed my lips. It is the curse of

:53:54.:53:59.

the sound bite. I always tried to avoid endlessly repeating the same

:54:00.:54:05.

sound bite. You do have to make the same point, but to try to find a way

:54:06.:54:09.

to make it with fresh language every time is more likely to find an

:54:10.:54:15.

audience. Critics of your government will say, look around the Cabinet

:54:16.:54:21.

table, a lot of posh voices. Does that shaped decision`making in

:54:22.:54:24.

government, that maybe the government are out of touch? I think

:54:25.:54:31.

all the major parties try hard to bring in a broader range of voices.

:54:32.:54:36.

It is certainly true John and I are exactly the same in this respect. We

:54:37.:54:41.

are both white males of an indeterminate age. All three parties

:54:42.:54:47.

are trying to bring in people from an ethnic minority, more women.

:54:48.:54:53.

Younger members, I think it is all`important. There is no easy fix

:54:54.:54:59.

but I think listening to what people are saying will make one party more

:55:00.:55:03.

electable. So does it really matter what

:55:04.:55:06.

politicians sound or even look like if they're doing their job? Well, an

:55:07.:55:09.

expert from Nottingham University has been studying what the public

:55:10.:55:12.

want from their political leaders. Professor Phil Cowley told us it

:55:13.:55:20.

does matter. People will often say parliament is becoming less

:55:21.:55:23.

diverse, or sometimes more diverse, I'm not sure it is. It is becoming

:55:24.:55:28.

diverse in different ways. 40 years ago, there were much larger number

:55:29.:55:35.

of working`class MPs than there now. Lots of people who had worked in

:55:36.:55:38.

manual jobs and then went on to Westminster. But there were no

:55:39.:55:43.

women. Now, there are more women but the place is much more middle class.

:55:44.:55:49.

So whether it is becoming more less diverse overtime is tricky. It is

:55:50.:55:53.

unrepresentative now and it was unrepresentative then. Researchers

:55:54.:56:00.

also found voters overall want Parliament to be more reflective of

:56:01.:56:03.

society but they don't expect their MPs necessarily to have those issues

:56:04.:56:09.

taken on board. They don't expect their MPs to reflect the whole of

:56:10.:56:13.

society, but they do expect Parliament to. Is there a

:56:14.:56:20.

contradiction? I don't think people will be calling for Dennis Skinner

:56:21.:56:23.

to be replaced by a 20`year`old Oxford graduate. MPs should be seen

:56:24.:56:29.

to be in touch with their constituency. That is more of a

:56:30.:56:34.

missing ingredient. MPs don't live in their constituency, spend much

:56:35.:56:40.

time there. They use clever technology to communicate rather

:56:41.:56:44.

than being seen. I think that divides politicians and the public

:56:45.:56:50.

and resentment is beginning to grow. Do you see that resentment? Yes, I

:56:51.:56:57.

do. First of all, Parliament does not work if there are not voices in

:56:58.:57:01.

Parliament that people feel are speaking their language, saying the

:57:02.:57:04.

things they want to see said in Parliament. But it has to do

:57:05.:57:10.

something else as well. It is no good having a parliament that does

:57:11.:57:15.

not address the real issues. It needs to address health failings, as

:57:16.:57:20.

we've been talking about, education, the deficit. It has two deal with

:57:21.:57:25.

real issues. The language has to reflect peoples views. Has that

:57:26.:57:31.

changed in the time you been in the Commons? Yes, I think politics has

:57:32.:57:38.

become too concerned with the way things look rather than ensuring the

:57:39.:57:43.

real issues are explored in depth in language that people understand. One

:57:44.:57:49.

measure that might change all this, you think. Well, I'd have people

:57:50.:57:55.

choose the candidates at the primaries. I think that would

:57:56.:57:59.

liberate the Labour Party and we would be far more representative. We

:58:00.:58:01.

would sell into power. ``sail. And now for a round`up of some of

:58:02.:58:12.

the other stories of the week in 60 seconds, with Rob Pittam.

:58:13.:58:19.

A move by the North West Leicestershire MP to save people who

:58:20.:58:24.

don't pay their TV licences from getting a criminal record is set to

:58:25.:58:28.

become law. The Conservative MP got the backing of 150 of his fellow

:58:29.:58:34.

MPs. I said, will you support my amendment. They actually couldn't

:58:35.:58:38.

believe it was a criminal offence. It is. People don't realise. The Lib

:58:39.:58:43.

Dems have chosen a candidate for mid Derbyshire in the next election.

:58:44.:58:48.

Hilary Jones will take on the sitting MP.

:58:49.:58:52.

Residents and businesses in Nottingham will soon be able to use

:58:53.:58:58.

a car hire scheme introduced by the City Council. The charge is from ?5

:58:59.:59:04.

an hour. Leicester City Council is asking

:59:05.:59:08.

people for their views on a shake`up of parking. Plans include payment by

:59:09.:59:15.

debit and credit card and reducing the parking zones in the city

:59:16.:59:19.

centre. That's the Sunday Politics in the

:59:20.:59:23.

East Midlands, thanks to my guests John Mann and Stephen Dorrell. Don't

:59:24.:59:26.

forget to catch up with my political blog. Next week, our guests are

:59:27.:59:31.

Loughborough's Nicky Morgan and the Chesterfield MP Labour's Toby

:59:32.:59:32.

Perkins. Now, back to Andrew Neil. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew,

:59:33.:59:35.

back to you. Now let's get more from our

:59:36.:59:49.

political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never

:59:50.:59:53.

spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood

:59:54.:59:56.

memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few

:59:57.:00:01.

council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to

:00:02.:00:03.

cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think

:00:04.:00:06.

the big difference with the National front in France is that they are

:00:07.:00:11.

building on decades of successful that they finished second in the

:00:12.:00:15.

presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they

:00:16.:00:20.

were versions of their politics. So they are building on a lot whereas

:00:21.:00:24.

the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.

:00:25.:00:33.

It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of

:00:34.:00:38.

its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not

:00:39.:00:44.

as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in

:00:45.:00:48.

the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same

:00:49.:00:56.

about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is

:00:57.:01:01.

pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about

:01:02.:01:04.

immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to

:01:05.:01:07.

an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council

:01:08.:01:11.

houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.

:01:12.:01:15.

We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As

:01:16.:01:20.

extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the

:01:21.:01:27.

comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left

:01:28.:01:35.

as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement

:01:36.:01:40.

that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.

:01:41.:01:51.

Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its

:01:52.:01:55.

act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge

:01:56.:01:59.

and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist

:02:00.:02:05.

party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have

:02:06.:02:10.

voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and

:02:11.:02:16.

France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when

:02:17.:02:24.

they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because

:02:25.:02:30.

the next election was 2007. 2002 they came second when Jean-Marie Le

:02:31.:02:39.

Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put

:02:40.:02:50.

them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much

:02:51.:02:54.

harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than

:02:55.:02:58.

there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If

:02:59.:03:12.

Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the

:03:13.:03:16.

centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the

:03:17.:03:20.

second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does

:03:21.:03:26.

and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's

:03:27.:03:31.

doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might

:03:32.:03:35.

call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from

:03:36.:03:40.

xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from

:03:41.:03:45.

globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but

:03:46.:03:49.

are put off by the current president. That is what I do not

:03:50.:03:53.

think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon

:03:54.:03:58.

Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he

:03:59.:04:03.

was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up

:04:04.:04:05.

against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the

:04:06.:04:12.

phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of

:04:13.:04:17.

electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a

:04:18.:04:21.

few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting

:04:22.:04:25.

people's bins collected so they become part of the system that

:04:26.:04:28.

people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the

:04:29.:04:34.

Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be

:04:35.:04:38.

cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the

:04:39.:04:43.

leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be

:04:44.:04:47.

cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where

:04:48.:04:53.

the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is

:04:54.:04:57.

quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the

:04:58.:05:02.

Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled.

:05:03.:05:07.

One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead

:05:08.:05:17.

over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people

:05:18.:05:24.

who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the

:05:25.:05:28.

Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of

:05:29.:05:32.

Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives

:05:33.:05:37.

did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can

:05:38.:05:41.

sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are

:05:42.:05:46.

concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the

:05:47.:05:51.

Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was

:05:52.:05:56.

impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the

:05:57.:06:00.

British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry,

:06:01.:06:05.

you are not occupying the party political territory where we will

:06:06.:06:09.

vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels

:06:10.:06:14.

a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the

:06:15.:06:20.

voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not

:06:21.:06:25.

unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it

:06:26.:06:28.

steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not

:06:29.:06:32.

respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But

:06:33.:06:36.

he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may

:06:37.:06:40.

think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot

:06:41.:06:44.

after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political

:06:45.:06:48.

weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr

:06:49.:06:56.

Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition

:06:57.:06:59.

authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.

:07:00.:07:03.

And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be

:07:04.:07:07.

attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget

:07:08.:07:13.

that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical

:07:14.:07:17.

trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to

:07:18.:07:24.

five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question

:07:25.:07:30.

is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This

:07:31.:07:36.

reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking

:07:37.:07:40.

poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and

:07:41.:07:45.

personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away

:07:46.:07:49.

an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important

:07:50.:07:56.

difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the

:07:57.:08:00.

election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up

:08:01.:08:05.

their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now,

:08:06.:08:08.

we do not like this government because of course, you do not like

:08:09.:08:12.

the government. But next January or February they will be making up

:08:13.:08:17.

their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour

:08:18.:08:22.

figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because

:08:23.:08:26.

there are not big ideological differences between them, is there?

:08:27.:08:32.

Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from

:08:33.:08:37.

the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a

:08:38.:08:43.

continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they

:08:44.:08:47.

do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying

:08:48.:08:54.

he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in

:08:55.:09:00.

the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible

:09:01.:09:05.

structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed

:09:06.:09:09.

Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red

:09:10.:09:15.

ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy

:09:16.:09:18.

speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron

:09:19.:09:23.

nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this

:09:24.:09:27.

week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on

:09:28.:09:33.

the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's remind ourselves of what happened in

:09:34.:09:38.

last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.

:09:39.:09:46.

We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A

:09:47.:09:52.

referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can

:09:53.:09:59.

read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We

:10:00.:10:08.

have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.

:10:09.:10:14.

Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on

:10:15.:10:22.

facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen

:10:23.:10:28.

to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You

:10:29.:10:36.

have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.

:10:37.:10:43.

I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that

:10:44.:10:48.

and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for

:10:49.:10:53.

pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said

:10:54.:10:58.

actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later

:10:59.:11:06.

on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important

:11:07.:11:09.

thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration

:11:10.:11:13.

policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to

:11:14.:11:18.

come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important

:11:19.:11:21.

thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I

:11:22.:11:25.

suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11

:11:26.:11:33.

turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I

:11:34.:11:37.

slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought

:11:38.:11:43.

far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public

:11:44.:11:48.

disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean

:11:49.:11:55.

the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the

:11:56.:12:01.

second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man

:12:02.:12:07.

who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate.

:12:08.:12:13.

Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs

:12:14.:12:16.

to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions

:12:17.:12:20.

because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after

:12:21.:12:25.

Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands

:12:26.:12:30.

with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign

:12:31.:12:34.

policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria

:12:35.:12:39.

worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of

:12:40.:12:42.

the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say

:12:43.:12:46.

that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for

:12:47.:12:51.

blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating

:12:52.:12:55.

the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's

:12:56.:13:02.

shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does

:13:03.:13:06.

that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing

:13:07.:13:11.

with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will

:13:12.:13:15.

see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily

:13:16.:13:19.

Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here

:13:20.:13:23.

next week at the usual time of 11 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:24.:13:25.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:26.:13:32.

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