29/01/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:09.:01:13.

A new strategy for industry, protests at several US airports.

:01:14.:01:19.

but will it mean more jobs and prosperity here?

:01:20.:01:21.

And as the cold weather bites, centres helping people with drink

:01:22.:01:23.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:24.:01:27.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:28.:01:30.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:31.:01:32.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:33.:01:35.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:36.:01:38.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:39.:01:39.

And with me, the best and brightest political

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panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:42.:01:43.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:44.:01:46.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:47.:01:49.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:50.:01:51.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:52.:01:57.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:58.:02:01.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:02.:02:05.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:06.:02:08.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

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Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:14.:02:17.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:18.:02:25.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:26.:02:28.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:29.:02:32.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:33.:02:38.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:39.:02:42.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:43.:02:45.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:46.:02:51.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:52.:02:54.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:55.:02:56.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:57.:03:11.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:12.:03:14.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:15.:03:16.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:17.:03:22.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:23.:03:26.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:27.:03:31.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:32.:03:34.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:35.:03:38.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:39.:03:41.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:42.:03:43.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:44.:03:47.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:48.:03:49.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:50.:03:53.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:54.:04:05.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:06.:04:13.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:14.:04:17.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:18.:04:21.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:22.:04:28.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:29.:04:32.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:33.:04:39.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:40.:04:43.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:44.:04:47.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:48.:04:53.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:54.:04:55.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:56.:04:58.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:59.:05:03.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:04.:05:07.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

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wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

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moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:16.:05:20.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:21.:05:24.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:25.:05:32.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:33.:05:35.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:36.:05:38.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

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have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:43.:05:45.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:46.:05:47.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:48.:05:52.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:53.:05:56.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

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temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:06:01.:06:06.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:07.:06:11.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

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temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

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wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

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and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

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It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

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arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

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been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

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I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:44.:06:47.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:48.:07:01.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:02.:07:06.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:07.:07:10.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

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this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

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because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:19.:07:20.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

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you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:26.:07:31.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:32.:07:34.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:35.:07:39.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:40.:07:42.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:43.:07:48.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:49.:07:51.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:52.:07:56.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:57.:08:00.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:08:01.:08:03.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:04.:08:09.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:10.:08:12.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

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believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:18.:08:22.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:23.:08:26.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:27.:08:29.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

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of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:33.:08:38.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:39.:08:41.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

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Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:53.:08:58.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:59.:09:02.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:03.:09:07.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:08.:09:12.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:13.:09:17.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:18.:09:22.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:23.:09:27.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:28.:09:36.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:37.:09:40.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:41.:09:44.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:45.:09:48.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:49.:09:51.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:52.:09:56.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:57.:10:01.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:02.:10:04.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:05.:10:10.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:11.:10:14.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:15.:10:18.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:19.:10:24.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:25.:10:27.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:28.:10:32.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:33.:10:38.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:39.:10:41.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:42.:10:47.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:48.:10:51.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:52.:10:57.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:58.:11:01.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:02.:11:04.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:05.:11:12.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:13.:11:17.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:18.:11:21.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:22.:11:25.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:26.:11:28.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:29.:11:38.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:39.:11:43.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:44.:11:48.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

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with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:54.:11:57.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:58.:12:03.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:04.:12:09.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:10.:12:13.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:14.:12:19.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:20.:12:22.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:23.:12:28.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:29.:12:33.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:34.:12:37.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:38.:12:40.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:41.:12:45.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:46.:12:49.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:50.:12:54.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:55.:12:58.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:12:59.:13:03.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:04.:13:05.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:06.:13:10.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:11.:13:14.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:15.:13:18.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:19.:13:22.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:23.:13:26.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:27.:13:31.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:32.:13:35.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:36.:13:38.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:39.:13:44.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:45.:13:46.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:47.:13:50.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:51.:13:53.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:54.:13:56.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:57.:13:58.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:59.:14:00.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:14:01.:14:02.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:03.:14:04.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:05.:14:07.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:08.:14:11.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:12.:14:14.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:15.:14:22.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:23.:14:26.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:27.:14:29.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:30.:14:35.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:36.:14:36.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:37.:14:42.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:43.:14:46.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:47.:14:49.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:50.:14:52.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:53.:14:57.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:58.:15:00.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:15:01.:15:03.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:04.:15:06.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:07.:15:22.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:23.:15:26.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:27.:15:30.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:31.:15:35.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:36.:15:39.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:40.:15:47.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:48.:15:52.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:53.:15:58.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:59.:16:02.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:03.:16:08.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:09.:16:12.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:13.:16:17.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:18.:16:22.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:23.:16:25.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:26.:16:31.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:32.:16:35.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:36.:16:39.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:40.:16:44.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:45.:16:48.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:49.:16:54.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:55.:17:02.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:03.:17:06.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:07.:17:11.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:12.:17:16.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:17.:17:19.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:20.:17:29.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:30.:17:33.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:34.:17:38.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:39.:17:43.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:44.:17:46.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:47.:17:50.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:51.:17:56.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:57.:17:59.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:00.:18:05.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:06.:18:09.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:10.:18:13.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:14.:18:24.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:25.:18:31.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:32.:18:35.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:36.:18:38.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:39.:18:44.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:45.:18:47.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:48.:18:54.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:55.:18:59.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:00.:19:03.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:04.:19:06.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:07.:19:13.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:14.:19:16.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:17.:19:20.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:21.:19:24.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:25.:19:27.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:28.:19:33.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:34.:19:39.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:40.:19:44.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:45.:19:48.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:49.:19:53.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:54.:19:57.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:58.:20:04.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:05.:20:10.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:11.:20:16.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:17.:20:20.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:21.:20:24.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:25.:20:29.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:30.:20:33.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:34.:20:36.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:37.:20:41.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:42.:20:46.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:47.:20:51.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:52.:20:56.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:57.:21:00.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:01.:21:05.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:06.:21:10.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:11.:21:15.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:16.:21:18.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:19.:21:22.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:23.:21:26.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:27.:21:31.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:32.:21:36.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:37.:21:41.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:42.:21:45.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:46.:21:53.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:54.:21:56.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:57.:22:01.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:02.:22:04.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:05.:22:09.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:10.:22:12.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:13.:22:19.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:20.:22:23.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:24.:22:27.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:28.:22:31.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:32.:22:36.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:37.:22:39.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:40.:22:46.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:47.:22:50.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:51.:22:54.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:55.:23:00.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:01.:23:04.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:05.:23:09.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:10.:23:14.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:15.:23:19.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:20.:23:22.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:23.:23:26.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:27.:23:31.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:32.:23:35.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:36.:23:39.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:40.:23:43.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:44.:23:48.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:49.:23:52.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:53.:23:58.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:59.:24:02.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:03.:24:07.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:08.:24:11.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:12.:24:16.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:17.:24:18.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:19.:24:24.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:25.:24:29.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:30.:24:33.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:34.:24:38.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:39.:24:42.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:43.:24:49.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:50.:24:57.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:58.:25:01.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:02.:25:05.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:06.:25:12.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:13.:25:17.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:18.:25:21.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:22.:25:23.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:24.:25:25.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:26.:25:27.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:28.:25:30.

be talking to our political panel. but will it mean more jobs

:25:31.:25:42.

and prosperity here? And as the cold weather bites,

:25:43.:25:47.

centres helping people with drink But are we doing enough

:25:48.:25:49.

to tackle problem-drinking? For most people, when they have got

:25:50.:25:57.

to the point where they're sat in the street with a can,

:25:58.:26:01.

they become alcohol dependent. So, they are physically

:26:02.:26:03.

cannot stop drinking without causing health issues

:26:04.:26:05.

to themselves, so they need to Hello, I'm Dominic Heale

:26:06.:26:07.

with a slightly shortened show today But there are no cuts to the debate

:26:08.:26:11.

and insight from our guests - Amanda Solloway is the Conservative

:26:12.:26:17.

MP for Derby North and Jon Ashworth First, let's just get your reaction

:26:18.:26:20.

to the debate coming up this week Amanda Solloway, you were undecided

:26:21.:26:25.

about Brexit before the campaign, Well, I was undecided and then

:26:26.:26:33.

I actually came out on the side But now, obviously, you know,

:26:34.:26:40.

we had the referendum and we Absolutely, we are

:26:41.:26:45.

doing the right thing. We are committed to it

:26:46.:26:48.

and I think that's absolutely right

:26:49.:26:50.

that we do that. Jon Ashworth, slightly less

:26:51.:26:59.

straightforward for Labour. Leicester voted narrowly to remain,

:27:00.:27:01.

will you be voting Well, I think we've had a national

:27:02.:27:03.

referendum and people in that referendum have

:27:04.:27:07.

expressed their desire I don't actually like that results,

:27:08.:27:08.

but it is the result nonetheless. So, I think we have to get

:27:09.:27:12.

on and negotiate the best I'm very, very worried about

:27:13.:27:15.

what we've heard from Theresa May. I think she is pushing us towards a,

:27:16.:27:19.

if you like, bargain basement deal. I want us to protect workers' rights

:27:20.:27:22.

and I want us to protect the NHS. I want us to protect

:27:23.:27:26.

jobs and livelihood, so there is a long way to go on this

:27:27.:27:28.

renegotiation and that's what I'll be pressing

:27:29.:27:31.

for in the debates in Parliament. Well, Brexit may have

:27:32.:27:33.

stolen the headlines, but there was one other Government

:27:34.:27:37.

announcement this week, which may turn out to have just as much

:27:38.:27:39.

of an impact on our region. That was the proposals

:27:40.:27:42.

for a new industrial strategy. The 132-page green paper

:27:43.:27:44.

included a lot that could Among its suggestions - making sure

:27:45.:27:47.

economic growth is spread It also contains a promise outline

:27:48.:27:52.

a strategy for the Midlands engine, In addition, there will be

:27:53.:27:56.

an emphasis on encouraging growth in sectors like a rule space

:27:57.:28:05.

and the creative industries. There is ?14 million

:28:06.:28:08.

for a research project between Rolls-Royce

:28:09.:28:13.

and Loughborough University. Some of the help will come

:28:14.:28:14.

in city deals, which we've benefited from already,

:28:15.:28:17.

but also in devolution packages. An area where the East Midlands lags

:28:18.:28:22.

behind, although it contains a promise to outline a strategy

:28:23.:28:24.

for the Midlands Engine soon. There'll be an emphasis

:28:25.:28:27.

on encouraging growth in sectors like aerospace and the creative

:28:28.:28:35.

industries, areas in which the East Midlands

:28:36.:28:37.

is traditionally strong - there's ?14 million for a research

:28:38.:28:39.

project between Rolls Royce Ensuring more of the annual public

:28:40.:28:41.

sector spend of ?268 billion a year goes to UK companies,

:28:42.:28:45.

by taking wider factors like social and economic issues into account

:28:46.:28:48.

when awarding contracts and may be a boost for Derby-based

:28:49.:28:50.

Bombardier when it bids The Government says this

:28:51.:28:52.

is a consultation and it wants to hear your views on how

:28:53.:28:56.

to improve the economy. So, we've been asking people

:28:57.:28:58.

in Nottingham for their ideas I would put out funding so people

:28:59.:29:01.

could start up businesses. A big believer in

:29:02.:29:04.

giving jobs back to I think definitely,

:29:05.:29:06.

like, apprenticeships. For more people this age, who can

:29:07.:29:08.

get into the job world, quicker. I think we've got to

:29:09.:29:12.

look to the future. Some of the industries

:29:13.:29:14.

are a bit in the past. We have lost players,

:29:15.:29:16.

there are slowly going. The increase in car

:29:17.:29:18.

manufacturing is helping the Well, that's a good point,

:29:19.:29:22.

but apprenticeships, Amanda, is this an idea whose time has come

:29:23.:29:25.

again, do I think it's one thing

:29:26.:29:28.

very clearly that the I think there are a view

:29:29.:29:32.

challenges that we I think we need to make sure we get

:29:33.:29:35.

education right, but I think we need to then be going on and making

:29:36.:29:40.

sure that we are supporting businesses and apprenticeships are

:29:41.:29:43.

a really good way of getting people into work, skilled people into work

:29:44.:29:46.

for the roles that we need. Are you happy,

:29:47.:30:01.

Jon Ashworth, that the apprenticeships are good

:30:02.:30:02.

quality apprenticeships? In other words, the people will be

:30:03.:30:04.

able to leave them with Well, I think

:30:05.:30:06.

apprenticeships are really I'm not going to

:30:07.:30:09.

disagree with Amanda on We need to be investing more

:30:10.:30:12.

in apprenticeships, but if we are talking about an industrial strategy

:30:13.:30:16.

for the Midlands, I would welcome But part of that has got to be

:30:17.:30:19.

the electrification of the Midland It keeps getting

:30:20.:30:23.

delays and put back. That will bring jobs, it will bring

:30:24.:30:26.

investment to the Midlands. It is absolutely key

:30:27.:30:29.

to an industrial So, I am having the Government,

:30:30.:30:31.

get on with the electrification of

:30:32.:30:34.

the Midland mainline. My constituents needed,

:30:35.:30:36.

constituents and Derby need it. I mean, that should have

:30:37.:30:38.

been in the green paper, Well, one of the things

:30:39.:30:41.

that is in the green paper, But for me, I agree

:30:42.:30:45.

with what you're saying. We have all been campaigning

:30:46.:30:48.

for the electrification. But actually, I think

:30:49.:30:50.

we have a broader responsibility as East Midlands MPs

:30:51.:30:52.

to make sure that this East Midlands And that is one thing

:30:53.:30:55.

that I keep on saying need to be making sure

:30:56.:30:58.

that we are looking after education, creating the rules and not letting

:30:59.:31:03.

us get railroaded by, for example,

:31:04.:31:05.

northern powerhouse. I take your point on that,

:31:06.:31:06.

but in the paper it refers to the creation of the Midlands

:31:07.:31:11.

engine soon. I mean, that's a wonderful

:31:12.:31:12.

phrase, isn't it? I think we have a responsibility

:31:13.:31:14.

to keep on saying we cannot let the Midlands fall behind,

:31:15.:31:20.

specifically the East Midlands. The green paper

:31:21.:31:22.

was very, very big on technology, on broadband

:31:23.:31:24.

and the sort of stuff. But in our region, manufacturing

:31:25.:31:26.

has been and still is Is there a danger that

:31:27.:31:29.

that's been glossed over? I mean, manufacturing

:31:30.:31:33.

in the East Midlands Indeed, I would argue

:31:34.:31:37.

that the East Midlands biggest manufacturing

:31:38.:31:40.

base in the country. The west Midlands would contest

:31:41.:31:43.

that, but I think the statistics show that

:31:44.:31:45.

the East Midlands is bigger. Traditionally, we have not

:31:46.:31:47.

done very well in terms of getting the growth for money

:31:48.:31:49.

in the last few years and, you know, Bombardier didn't get some contacts

:31:50.:31:53.

a couple of years ago. So, it seems at times,

:31:54.:31:55.

our manufacturing base has been neglected and that

:31:56.:31:57.

cannot be right. We want a Midlands engine,

:31:58.:31:59.

we want it quicker than soon, if you But if we are going to have

:32:00.:32:02.

that, we need to be investing in manufacturing and we

:32:03.:32:07.

need to be investing in things make Amanda, there is the suggestion

:32:08.:32:10.

that attitudes are That whereas in the past,

:32:11.:32:12.

we were not giving contracts to local firms to secure jobs, because

:32:13.:32:16.

of the competition and so on. It seems that we are becoming more

:32:17.:32:19.

interventionist now? Certainly what I'm seeing

:32:20.:32:22.

is that there is a lot of excitement around Derby,

:32:23.:32:26.

around the East Midlands. We need to be making sure

:32:27.:32:27.

that the big contracts are going to this country

:32:28.:32:32.

and also from our point Making sure that apprenticeships

:32:33.:32:34.

are adding value. We've got the great investment

:32:35.:32:37.

in stem at the moment with partnership of the University

:32:38.:32:39.

of Derby and Rolls-Royce, We've got UTC, there's

:32:40.:32:42.

all these things that we are doing that are really trying to make

:32:43.:32:45.

apprenticeships add value, make Midlands engine for

:32:46.:32:47.

growth and the skills. And will Brexit drive that

:32:48.:32:49.

forage, Jon Ashworth? And will Brexit drive that

:32:50.:32:51.

forward, Jon Ashworth? Do you think that when

:32:52.:32:53.

we move the European Union, we can be more nakedly

:32:54.:32:55.

interventionist and protect our own industry from competition

:32:56.:32:58.

from abroad? Well, we'll have to see

:32:59.:32:59.

where we get to with the I mean, I think we should be

:33:00.:33:02.

intervening in the economy. I am pleased that our

:33:03.:33:05.

Conservative friends are now converted to quote

:33:06.:33:11.

By the way, only talk manufacturing in East

:33:12.:33:14.

Midlands, it's not just building trains, don't forget food

:33:15.:33:16.

Melton Mowbray pork pies, our Stilton cheeses.

:33:17.:33:19.

These can be selling to the world and I

:33:20.:33:21.

want to see Government ministers going across the world, really

:33:22.:33:23.

banging the drum as well for the food and drink

:33:24.:33:26.

And briefly, Amanda Solloway, what about

:33:27.:33:29.

the quality of employment ayes there is talk

:33:30.:33:30.

of zero-hours contract and

:33:31.:33:32.

particularly, I have to say, within the food industry.

:33:33.:33:33.

I mean, just on that, one of the things that we do

:33:34.:33:36.

really well is we do apprenticeships like you're saying, on a broader

:33:37.:33:39.

We just had a construction placed open, academy, which is

:33:40.:33:43.

So, what we are doing is, we're trying to

:33:44.:33:46.

broaden it out to not just manufacturing, but looking at all of

:33:47.:33:49.

the industries and I've goes forward.

:33:50.:33:50.

So, in terms of this green paper, can I summarise your response

:33:51.:33:53.

as being guardedly optimistic or very optimistic in your case?

:33:54.:33:55.

I know that I am on the base like committee as you

:33:56.:33:59.

know and I know that the chair was saying what a good thing it is.

:34:00.:34:03.

But we needed sooner, is that what you're

:34:04.:34:06.

Let's see what action we get from the Government, but if they are

:34:07.:34:13.

going to implement what they say in this paper, good.

:34:14.:34:15.

But we actually need the action, not just the

:34:16.:34:18.

The Government's announced plans for new action zones to tackle

:34:19.:34:23.

problems caused by heavy drinking in towns and city centres,

:34:24.:34:26.

including ones in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire.

:34:27.:34:27.

It's a subject that's close to the heart for both of our guests.

:34:28.:34:30.

They've both spoken publicly about the pain of growing up

:34:31.:34:33.

But are we doing enough to tackle the issue of problem drinking?

:34:34.:34:41.

A place out of the cold for street drinkers in Leicester.

:34:42.:34:43.

Alex comes here because they help control his drinking.

:34:44.:34:46.

It's just good to have a place like this where you can go and

:34:47.:34:49.

Especially with the GP, they make contact with the staff

:34:50.:34:53.

here, so they are both talking to each other,

:34:54.:34:55.

needs and what they can do to help you even more.

:34:56.:35:07.

There you are. Ta.

:35:08.:35:09.

Our aim is to support people as the starting point

:35:10.:35:18.

They don't always choose to be on the streets.

:35:19.:35:22.

Most of them aren't choosing to be on the streets, it's

:35:23.:35:24.

just part and parcel of their lifestyle.

:35:25.:35:26.

The Anchor Centre is also a refuge in the day for the hidden homeless.

:35:27.:35:29.

Better here than sitting on a park bench.

:35:30.:35:33.

I'm hoping to be back in work by April.

:35:34.:35:35.

I have promised myself to do that, but I don't know

:35:36.:35:38.

If I can, that's an even bigger step, but I'm going to try.

:35:39.:35:55.

They want to move from here to a better building

:35:56.:35:58.

Where there's help on alcohol, health, housing advice.

:35:59.:36:02.

They have the capital funding, but not the planning permission.

:36:03.:36:05.

Because some would rather not see drinkers on their doorstep.

:36:06.:36:17.

Jon Ashworth, has your personal experience, is that Ken of the way

:36:18.:36:20.

that as Shadow Health Secretary you view alcoholism in terms

:36:21.:36:22.

Well, I spoke out a few weeks ago about my own

:36:23.:36:26.

upbringing with an alcoholic father and, look, I enjoy a drink in a

:36:27.:36:29.

social setting, but I think we sometimes forget in society how

:36:30.:36:31.

And one of the reasons I spoke out is,

:36:32.:36:35.

because obviously as the Health Secretary,

:36:36.:36:36.

it would be easy for me to come on programmes and have a go

:36:37.:36:39.

at the Tory Government for this, that and the other, but I thought,

:36:40.:36:43.

if I can speak about my personal experiences

:36:44.:36:44.

growing up with an alcoholic father, and try and make a difference on

:36:45.:36:47.

these matters, I think I will have achieved something in politics.

:36:48.:36:50.

Amanda Solloway, that these must have

:36:51.:36:57.

It is a complex problem and one of the ways that we can get more

:36:58.:37:08.

people talking about it is by people like us speaking honestly and

:37:09.:37:10.

personally, because often, particularly in my situation, the

:37:11.:37:12.

impact of the alcoholic on the family is hidden.

:37:13.:37:14.

You know, we didn't tell people about it and it's

:37:15.:37:17.

So, the more we enable people to do that, the better I think.

:37:18.:37:29.

Are we doing enough as a society on this

:37:30.:37:32.

Because an amazing statistic, alcohol is 54% more affordable in

:37:33.:37:35.

There is a role for Government, isn't in

:37:36.:37:43.

I mean, minimum pricing is going through the courts in

:37:44.:37:47.

Scotland, but don't even think it's on the table in England, is it?

:37:48.:37:50.

Well, I think the UK Government have said

:37:51.:37:52.

they were the what happens with

:37:53.:37:53.

this court case in Scotland, because the Scottish Government tried to

:37:54.:37:56.

introduce it and have been taken to court I think by one

:37:57.:37:59.

So, I think the UK Government will look at

:38:00.:38:18.

that, but alcoholism costs the UK economy literally billions of

:38:19.:38:20.

It's not just the NHS who have to treat people with alcohol

:38:21.:38:24.

problems, if the fact that people can't get into work, so it's heading

:38:25.:38:27.

Isn't this where the ambivalence comes in, because the UK

:38:28.:38:31.

economy makes billions from alcohol duty?

:38:32.:38:32.

Well, it does make billions from alcohol duty, but it costs the UK

:38:33.:38:35.

If the effect on crime, is the effect on domestic violence.

:38:36.:38:39.

If he had an effect on children and what

:38:40.:38:41.

they have to cope with growing up with an alcoholic parent, which is

:38:42.:38:44.

what I spoke about in very personal terms a few weeks ago.

:38:45.:38:47.

So, I do think that the Government needs to

:38:48.:38:49.

put in place a really proper strategy for dealing with alcohol

:38:50.:38:52.

In our film, we saw a centre where people could go and a lot

:38:53.:38:56.

of people who were in that situation could be

:38:57.:38:59.

driven by the cold weather into the centres.

:39:00.:39:00.

Isn't that a golden opportunity to connect with those

:39:01.:39:03.

And isn't that what we should be doing more of?

:39:04.:39:06.

We have a centre that I went to a few weeks ago called.

:39:07.:39:12.

The problem is, that dealing with alcoholics, people

:39:13.:39:15.

The reason is that they are are very complex.

:39:16.:39:18.

One of the situations that we have in Derby is that what we are

:39:19.:39:22.

trying to do is encourage people not to be

:39:23.:39:24.

giving money to people on the

:39:25.:39:25.

streets, but trying to divert that money to a centre, three different

:39:26.:39:28.

Because a way to help these people is, as you say, to

:39:29.:39:32.

get them to the centres, to try and give support,

:39:33.:39:34.

but actually, and Jon will say this, some of these cases

:39:35.:39:37.

You can return to the need help? You're not on your own. Our website

:39:38.:40:01.

and people to help you. I thought I was on my own as a child, but I

:40:02.:40:04.

didn't realise there are literally up to 2 million people in the same

:40:05.:40:11.

circumstances. Amanda? I think I picked up a wall and I was unable to

:40:12.:40:14.

talk about it. I was embarrassed by it. What I would say is that there

:40:15.:40:18.

is help out there and do talk to someone. Talk to somebody who you

:40:19.:40:22.

trust and there are people, teachers, adults who can help. Thank

:40:23.:40:25.

That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands.

:40:26.:40:28.

Thanks to Amanda Solloway and Jon Ashworth.

:40:29.:40:30.

Welcome back and let's get back to Donald Trump's travel ban

:40:31.:40:44.

on refugees and citizens from seven mainly Muslim countries.

:40:45.:40:49.

Earlier, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state

:40:50.:40:52.

visit by President Trump to the UK should not go ahead

:40:53.:40:55.

I think it would be totally wrong for him to be coming here while that

:40:56.:41:07.

situation is going on. He has to be challenged on this. So until the ban

:41:08.:41:12.

is lifted, you don't think he should come? I am not happy about him

:41:13.:41:17.

coming here until the ban is lifted. Look at what is happening with those

:41:18.:41:21.

countries. What will be the long term effect of this on the rest of

:41:22.:41:27.

the world? Is this state visit going to become a matter of huge political

:41:28.:41:32.

debate in this country? It would be anyway, but it is a temporary ban,

:41:33.:41:36.

so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe territory. It will be over by April

:41:37.:41:40.

and he is not due to come until summer. But there are three bands.

:41:41.:41:45.

There is the 90 day ban on people coming from the southern countries.

:41:46.:41:50.

There is the 120 day ban on refugees from anywhere in the world, and

:41:51.:41:54.

there is the indefinite ban on Syrian refugees. So there may still

:41:55.:41:59.

be some bans in place. But bear in mind the number of Syrian refugees

:42:00.:42:03.

and refugees from around the world that President Obama took over his

:42:04.:42:07.

eight years. There were years when it was not even up to 50 Syrian

:42:08.:42:11.

refugees that were taken since the civil war has started. This is an

:42:12.:42:17.

ongoing American policy. 12,500 Syrian refugees have come in the

:42:18.:42:22.

last year. Before that, it was a hundred and sometimes under 50. But

:42:23.:42:30.

they are reasonable numbers now, although not something America

:42:31.:42:34.

couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is discovering that being a president

:42:35.:42:40.

is different from being a business man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn

:42:41.:42:43.

the art of leadership, having been a backbench MP, and has struggled to

:42:44.:42:48.

do it, as we are about to discuss with article 50. With this, you have

:42:49.:42:52.

to dramatise the politics of this, and this is what he has done with

:42:53.:42:57.

that statement. Most controversial ever state visit now? I would

:42:58.:43:02.

imagine so. Even regardless of any opposition from the opposition to

:43:03.:43:06.

trump's physical presence in the streets, the presence of

:43:07.:43:11.

demonstrators will be an international new story. If trump's

:43:12.:43:15.

demands for the details of the visit are quite as extreme and as picky as

:43:16.:43:19.

some of the Sunday papers have suggested, that could also be the

:43:20.:43:23.

source of controversy. What do you have in mind? Isn't he anxious that

:43:24.:43:27.

only certain members of the Royal Family turn up? He doesn't want a

:43:28.:43:31.

one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who would, though! Some people may be

:43:32.:43:40.

sympathetic on that. It is the one subject where he is in line with

:43:41.:43:44.

British opinion. Playing golf in front of the Queen may be a higher

:43:45.:43:49.

priority. We have to be realistic. Given the other people from around

:43:50.:43:52.

the world that the Queen has played host to, like the Chinese president

:43:53.:43:55.

and Saudi kings and the like, we have had a lot worse come to visit

:43:56.:44:01.

than Donald Trump. Brexit - how serious our neighbour's problems on

:44:02.:44:06.

this? Very serious, but they often are with Europe. Labour were splits

:44:07.:44:10.

when we joined in the 70s, and still won general elections, in 1974 and

:44:11.:44:16.

1975. There were all over the place in terms of the single currency.

:44:17.:44:20.

Blair said one thing one day and the opposite the next day. Brown did the

:44:21.:44:21.

same. Brown usually set the opposite of

:44:22.:44:34.

what Blair said! They won landslide because they have the political

:44:35.:44:39.

skills to put all of the pressure on the major government, even though

:44:40.:44:41.

their position on the single currency was the same as major's. It

:44:42.:44:46.

is about with Europe the art of leadership. You have to be a

:44:47.:44:52.

political conjuror, you have to dissemble authoritative leak when

:44:53.:44:55.

you lead a divided party over Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his

:44:56.:44:59.

personal credit cannot dissemble, but he's not an individual person on

:45:00.:45:05.

this. He's leading a split party in danger of falling apart, and you

:45:06.:45:09.

need the skills of a political conjurer. Clearly self-evidently

:45:10.:45:14.

he's not displaying it because we are talking about the chaotic split

:45:15.:45:18.

which will manifest itself in that vote on Article 50. Labour and the

:45:19.:45:22.

SNP and the Lib Dems too I would have thought will all put amendments

:45:23.:45:27.

down to the short Article 50 piece of legislation. Do they have any

:45:28.:45:33.

chance of succeeding? No substantial world is changing amendments. I

:45:34.:45:37.

don't think Theresa May has much to worry about actually. I think if

:45:38.:45:42.

anything the reason she's pushed the legal appeal is that it helps her to

:45:43.:45:45.

have a big chunk of the media and a big chunk of public opinion worrying

:45:46.:45:50.

that the popular will of last year is in danger of being overturned and

:45:51.:45:55.

so even if it was a completely hopeless legal appeal, it generated

:45:56.:46:00.

headlines for a week that as an incumbent Prime Minister trying to

:46:01.:46:03.

execute believe vote suits you politically. I think it is a much

:46:04.:46:08.

bigger problem for Labour, we've already seen some Shadow Cabinet

:46:09.:46:12.

issues in the previous week. You have got to remember it's not just a

:46:13.:46:16.

majority of Labour MPs that want to stay in the European Union, but a

:46:17.:46:23.

majority of Labour constituencies, and a majority of labour macro

:46:24.:46:26.

voters wanted to stay as well so we have three lines of division. One

:46:27.:46:31.

amendment that might get through if it was called, and it is in the

:46:32.:46:34.

hands of the Deputy speaker who will be chairing these debates, and that

:46:35.:46:38.

will be an amendment that said regardless of how the Europeans

:46:39.:46:42.

treat our citizens in Europe, all EU citizens here will be afforded full

:46:43.:46:47.

rights to remain. That might get through. It may indeed and lots of

:46:48.:46:56.

backbench MPs would backpack. We all know there will not be mass

:46:57.:47:01.

deportations, it is not legal, it won't happen, it is simply a

:47:02.:47:05.

negotiating tactic. I agree with those who say you shouldn't be using

:47:06.:47:09.

people as a negotiating tactic, but the reality as it is the EU leaders

:47:10.:47:14.

that are doing that because it's already been offered. The remain as

:47:15.:47:18.

should be attacking the EU governments for not offering that in

:47:19.:47:23.

return. Article 50 is the easy bit for her. I agree with other members

:47:24.:47:27.

of the panel that she will get it through and the court case almost

:47:28.:47:31.

helps her by getting an easy journey through Parliament, then it gets

:47:32.:47:35.

really difficult. All of this has been a preamble and once she begins

:47:36.:47:40.

that nightmarish negotiation, there will be opportunities for a smart

:47:41.:47:45.

opposition to make quite a lot of the turmoil to come. Whether Labour

:47:46.:47:52.

are capable of that, let's wait and see. The divisions in Labour are

:47:53.:47:58.

nightmarish for them but by no means unprecedented. Arguably it was much

:47:59.:48:02.

more complicated in the early 1970s when you had Titans on either side,

:48:03.:48:07.

big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony Benn... Michael Foot, they were all

:48:08.:48:15.

at it. The fundamental issue of in or out, and they won two elections,

:48:16.:48:21.

so you have got to be really clever. But also how money more Labour MPs

:48:22.:48:26.

will resign. We shall find out this week.

:48:27.:48:29.

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at midday and all

:48:30.:48:32.

I'll be back here on BBC one next week.

:48:33.:48:35.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:48:36.:49:19.

a free five-a-side tournament that's for everyone.

:49:20.:49:23.

Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.