07/05/2017 Sunday Politics East Midlands


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby are joined by Labour's shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon and Ukip's Neil Hamilton to discuss the local election results.

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


The local election results made grim reading for Labour.


With just a month to go until the general election,


will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help


The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,


as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got


But is there still really all to play for?


And tonight we will find out who is the next


President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -


In the East Midlands: ended with a hack attack


Our county councils turn blue as the Conservatives sweep the board.


And in the general election, the big guns target the region.


potential impact in marginals next month. If Ukip support continues to


evaporate... And joining me for all of that,


three journalists ready to analyse the week's politics


with all the forensic focus of Diane Abbott


preparing for an interview, and all the relaxed,


slogan-free banter of Theresa May It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott


and Steve Richards. So, the Conservatives are promising,


if re-elected, to change mental health laws in England and Wales


to tackle discrimination, and they're promising 10,000 more


staff working in NHS mental health treatment in England by 2020 -


although how that's to be Here's Health Secretary


Jeremy Hunt speaking There is a lot of new


money going into it. In January, we said we were going


to put an extra ?1 billion Does this come from other parts


of the NHS, or is it No, it is new money


going into the NHS It's not just of course money,


it's having the people who deliver these jobs,


which is why we need Well, we're joined now from Norwich


by the Liberal Democrat health This weekend, they've launched


their own health announcement, promising a 1% rise on every income


tax band to fund the NHS. Do you welcome the Conservatives


putting mental health onto the campaign agenda in the way that they


have? I welcome it being on the campaign agenda but I do fear that


the announcement is built on thin air. You raised the issue at the


start about the 10,000 extra staff, and questions surrounding how it


would be paid for. There is no additional money on what they have


already announced for the NHS. We know it falls massively short on the


expectation of the funding gap which, by 2020, is likely to be


about 30 billion. That is not disputed now. Anyone outside of the


government, wherever you are on the political spectrum, knows the money


going in is simply not enough. So, rather like the claim that they


would add 5000 GPs to the workforce by 2020, that is not on target.


Latest figures show a fall in the number of GPs. They make these


claims, but I'm afraid they are without substance, unless they are


prepared to put money behind it. Your party's solution to the money


problem is to put a 1% percentage point on all of the bands of income


tax to raise more money 20-45. Is that unfair? Most pensioners who


consume 40% of NHS spending, but over 65s only pay about 20% of


income tax. Are you penalising the younger generations for the health


care of an older generation? It is the first step in what we are


describing as a 5-point recovery plan for the NHS and care system.


So, for what is available to us now, it seems to be the fairest way of


bringing in extra resources, income tax is progressive, and is based on


your ability to pay for your average British worker. It would be ?3 per


week which is the cost of less than two cups of coffee per week. In the


longer run, we say that by the end of the next Parliament, we would be


able to introduce a dedicated NHS and care tax. Based, probably,


around a reformed national insurance system, so it becomes a dedicated


NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the former permanent secretary of the


Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said clearly that this idea merits


further consideration which is the first time anyone for the Treasury


has bought into the idea of this. Let me ask you this. You say it is a


small amount of tax that people on average incomes will have to pay


extra. We are talking about people who have seen no real increases to


their income since 2007. They have been struggling to stand still in


terms of their own pay, but you are going to add to their tax, and as I


said earlier, most of the health care money will then go to


pensioners whose incomes have risen by 15%. I'm interested in the


fairness of this redistribution? Bearing in mind first of all,


Andrew, that the raising of the tax threshold that the Liberal Democrats


pushed through in the coalition increased the effective pay in your


pocket for basic rate taxpayers by about ?1000. We are talking about a


tiny fraction of that. I suppose that you do have to ask, all of us


in this country need to ask ourselves this question... Are we


prepared to pay, in terms of the average worker, about ?3 extra per


week to give us a guarantee that when our loved ones need that care,


in their hour of need, perhaps suspected cancer, that care will be


available for them? I have heard two cases recently brought my attention.


An elderly couple, the wife has a very bad hip. They could not allow


the weight to continue. She was told that she would need to wait 26


weeks, she was in acute pain. They then deduct paying ?20,000 for


private treatment to circumvent waiting time. They hated doing it,


because they did not want to jump the queue. But that is what is


increasingly happening. Sorry to interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make


very good points but we are short on time today. One final question, it


looks like you might have the chance to do any of this, I'm told the best


you can hope to do internally is to double the number of seats you have,


which would only take you to 18. Do you think that promising to raise


people's income tax, even those on average earnings, is a vote winner?


I think the people in this country are crying out for politicians to be


straight and tenet as it is. At the moment we heading towards a


Conservative landslide... -- tell it as it is. But do we want a 1-party


state? We are electing a government not only to deal with the crucial


Brexit negotiations, but oversee the stewardship of the NHS and funding


of our schools, all of these critical issues. We need an


effective opposition and with the Labour Party having taken itself off


stage, the Liberal Democrats need to provide an effective opposition.


Norman Lamb, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you.


Labour and Tories are anxious to stress the general election


result is not a foregone conclusion, whatever the polls say.


Order you just heard Norman Lamb say there that he thought the


Conservatives were heading for a landslide...


But did Thursday's dramatic set of local election results


in England, Scotland and Wales give us a better idea of how the country


Here's Emma Vardy with a behind-the-scenes look at how


Good morning, it's seven o'clock on Friday, May 5th...


The dawn of another results day. Anticipation hung in the air.


Early results from the local elections in England suggest


there's been a substantial swing from Labour to the Conservatives.


While the pros did their thing, I needed breakfast.


Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pinch a sausage.


The overnight counts had delivered successes for the Tories.


But with most councils only getting started,


there was plenty of action still to come.


It's not quite the night of Labour's nightmares.


There's enough mixed news in Wales, for example -


looks like they're about to hold Cardiff - that they'll try and put


But in really simple terms, four weeks from a general election,


the Tories are going forward and Labour are going backwards.


How does it compare being in here to doing the telly?


Huw, how do you prepare yourself for a long day of results, then?


We're not even on air yet, as you can see, and already


in Tory HQ this morning, there's a kind of, "Oh,


I'm scared this will make people think the election's just


I think leave it like that - perfect.


I want the Laura look. This is really good, isn't it?


Usually, we're in here for the Daily Politics.


But it's been transformed for the Election Results programme.


But hours went by without Ukip winning a single seat.


The joke going around Lincolnshire County Council today


from the Conservatives is that the Tories have eaten


We will rebrand and come back strong.


Morale, I think, is inevitably going to take a bit of a tumble.


Particularly if Theresa May starts backsliding on Brexit.


And then I think we will be totally reinvigorated.


There are a lot of good people in Ukip and I wouldn't


want to say anything unkind, but we all know it's over.


Ukip press officer. Difficult job.


Ukip weren't the only ones putting a brave face on it.


Labour were experiencing their own disaster day too,


losing hundreds of seats and seven councils.


If the result is what these results appear to indicate,


Can we have a quick word for the Sunday Politics?


A quick question for Sunday Politics - how are you feeling?


Downhearted or fired up for June? Fired up, absolutely fired up.


He's fired up. We're going to go out there...


We cannot go on with another five years of this.


How's it been for you today? Tiring.


It always is, but I love elections, I really enjoy them.


Yes, you know, obviously we're disappointed at some of the results,


it's been a mixed bag, but some opinion polls


and commentators predicted we'd be wiped out - we haven't.


As for the Lib Dems, not the resurgence they hoped for,


After a dead heat in Northumberland, the control of a whole council came


The section of England in which we had elections yesterday


was the section of England that was most likely to vote Leave.


When you go to sleep at night, do you just have election results


The answer is if that's still happening, I don't get to sleep.


There we go. Maybe practice some yoga...


Thank you very much but I have one here.


With the introduction of six regional mayors,


Labour's Andy Burnham became Mr Manchester.


But by the time Corbyn came to celebrate, the new mayor


We want you to stay for a second because I've got some


I used to present news, as you probably know.


I used to present BBC Breakfast in the morning.


The SNP had notable successes, ending 40 years of Labour


What did you prefer - presenting or politics?


And it certainly had been a hard day at the office for some.


Ukip's foothold in local government was all but wiped out,


leaving the Conservatives with their best local


So another election results day draws to a close.


But don't worry, we'll be doing it all again in five weeks' time.


For now, though, that's your lot. Off you go.


Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,


and what they might mean for the wider fortunes


In England, there were elections for 34 councils.


The Conservatives took control of ten of them,


gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained


While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,


and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.


In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing


a third of their seats, and control of three councils -


while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.


In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,


There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party


after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,


although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.


We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.


You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.


In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the


general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May


wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning


a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local


election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win


the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course


people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were


double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas


the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point


Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a


landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in


England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative


lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that


she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about


who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but


there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves


her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The


local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is


going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most


prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep


the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary


Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election


results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I


looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the


general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both


local elections in these years, but come the general election, they


added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen


again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.


Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local


elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in


1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.


In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --


their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition


campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of


Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth


noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip


voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to


increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,


the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the


party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the


Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we


should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in


the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper


forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is


producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum


has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,


the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do


you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially


disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional


question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been


faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively


disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south


of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly


the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the


leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they


will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the


remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa


May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote


has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining


us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I


wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced


fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the


centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.


That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the


argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,


Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of


the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue


vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the


spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like


Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British


politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact


what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not


something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,


when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,


dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad


spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain


have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like


they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too


small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest


thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has


limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We


don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is


some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a


realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.


Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the


disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been


saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They


still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have


picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a


strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's


very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel


that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job


done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour


Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are


shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has


produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was


called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the


Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off


editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party


united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over


Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David


Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for


this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because


it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to


take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at


a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a


united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a


long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big


campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no


income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -


which of course means those earning more than that could


face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John


McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone


earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an


increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.


For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more


to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be


a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a


society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.


We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.


Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be


paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.


But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would


not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for


the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners


won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a


policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell


also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%


of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying


to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,


you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's


manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out


and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set


out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he


is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis


just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The


polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was


it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between


now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.


Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their


share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way


is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I


satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is


a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections


are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to


put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle


income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You


lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The


journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an


easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are


comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the


terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a


challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are


determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter


policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took


place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --


took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of


British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm


election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after


his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of


mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all


of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I


am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused


on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies


like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum


wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of


earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and


funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by


the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives


of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the


few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to


be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.


You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy


Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate


his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview


straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped


him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the


reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in


Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into


celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge


him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to


travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed


on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?


Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time


with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy


Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am


convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat


on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He


said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour


while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the


doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my


constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single


voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest


thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that


people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even


talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy


Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum


wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and


sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under


this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,


but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,


perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour


leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on


the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead


the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won


the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more


might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of


the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four


weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see


further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to


Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my


constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And


also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She


should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.


Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary


people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D


and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do


that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living


standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the


living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We


have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you


for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's


elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party


won its best ever local government performance,


but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote


plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously


benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for


the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now


by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,


Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip


finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the


Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't


it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go


out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney


war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from


Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime


Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one


of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really


looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a


lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our


part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the


moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to


shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing


on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their


minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime


Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong


in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back


her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last


week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to


bully the British government, in those circumstances the British


people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the


Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician


in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for


your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters


are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in


the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.


There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that


once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit


negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the


focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of


policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.


The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap


the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health


service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with


the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of


what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces


beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not


Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that


time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's


fault. We have two become more professional than we have been


recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or


another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very


rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other


promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not


until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not


have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this


current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most


senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --


no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I


believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is


shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital


mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto


launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but


also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity


bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies


that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.


Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory


advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that


Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?


It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and


have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.


When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.


Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.


It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes - we'll be talking about the French


The results of one election are in, and it's a big win


for the Conservatives in the East Midlands with Labour


We fought a really good campaign on local issues and I think


We got our manifesto out early, we really hit the doorsteps,


we delivered thousands of leaflets, we talked to thousands of people...


And the general election steps up a gear as the big guns


The simple fact is that this election is a choice


between who becomes Prime Minister after the 8th of June,


and it is either going to be Theresa May or it is going to be


It is not a presidential election, we are a parliamentary system.


The only people who can vote for Theresa May are those who live


And I am at Westminster as two of our best-known MPs


Kay Cutts is the new leader of Nottinghamshire County Council


and Hardyal Dhindsa is Labour's Police and Crime


We're also joined for the first part of the programme by Alan Graves,


a Derby City councillor and the regional chairman of Ukip.


So first, let's take a closer look at those county council elections.


The Conservatives were the big winners in all four East Midlands


counties holding elections, gaining control of Lincolnshire and


In Nottinghamshire, they fell three seats


short of a majority, but the council will have


a Conservative leader, Kay Cutts, as the largest party.


The biggest turnover was in Derbyshire -


a majority of ten seats for Labour disappeared as the Conservatives


took control here too, regaining a council they'd


Kay Cutts, first, congratulations, on the face of it, good results for


the Conservatives but you did not get that all-important majority? No,


that was disappointing, I must admit that, but I have to tell you, it was


the fault of my colleagues because you could took the seat of a buzz


that we could have won in Gedling and that cost us the majority. But


we move on. You move on, you are the seats short of that supported


majority, what are your plans now? Will you run the council as a


largest party or will you have to draft in the help and support of


those independents and have some sort of coalition of chaos? It will


not be that, we do not do chaos in Nottinghamshire! Monday morning I am


eating with my senior colleagues and my party and we will make a decision


as to what we will do. We will be talking to both the Independent


parties and there is the Manse Road independents, four of them, and the


actual independents, six of those and one other independent who


belongs to no party. We have people to talk to. -- Mansfield. How do you


think it will turn out, as to bother you will rely on the independents?


We will not rely on them, if you run a coalition it will be parties


coming together, not to try to take the Tory whip. It would not be tied


to ransom a chaotic administration, I would not try to do that, it is


not fair to the electorate. Hardyal Dhindsa, it was a disappointing


result for Baber, particularly in the East Midlands, losing


Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, the party must feel very demoralised at


the moment? It was a very disappointing result for Labour in


Derbyshire and the East Midlands. Devastating for many hard-working,


very committed councillors who have been doing a job very well for a


long time. However, the national picture and the mood has made


Derbyshire blue and the East Midlands, the Conservatives are in


control and that is where we are at. You are feeling bruised? Yes, it has


been a difficult few days but we adhere to represent the people of


Derbyshire and the East Midlands and we will do our best to make sure


that we challenge, scrutinise and hold to account Conservative


controlled councils. Alan Graves, you won one seat across the whole of


the country, known in the East Midlands, you lost your only two


seats in Leicestershire. Yes, we did. To be fair, the Conservatives


have capitalised on our 25 years of hard work and it is very undeserved


of our councillors who work very hard and have been working very


hard. But let us put things into clarity, this is the county council


elections, we have not lost all of our counsellors, we have over 300


and on the country and they will continue to hard. You have lost all


of them in Lincolnshire. We still have to stick Councillor Astaire.


Where does you can go from here? Are their conversations about the future


of the party or is it time to pack up? Theresa May has been good on


capitalising on our hard work and we have got a white paper... She has to


push through Brexit. There is a White Paper on leaving the EU, but


it is in name only, there is no substance for that. People voted for


something when they wanted to leave the European Union and I am not


convinced that Theresa May is the one that is going to bring us out


properly in the way that people wanted to be taken out. She has had


six years of trying to control immigration and... Is that your only


Jopp, to make sure it goes through now? We have a very big part to play


in politics because we need to make sure that we hold our feet to the


fire. The Labour Party are in complete disarray. Nobody trusts


Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour Party internally have a big problem, they


are controlled mainly by Momentum people who will keep people like


Jeremy Corbyn in power. What do you think went so badly wrong, Hardyal,


in the East Midlands? Your party warned that Conservative councils


would make bigger cuts and the voters were not listening to that.


That is the challenge for the Labour Party, the message is not getting


through at the national level, through the media and through our


own communication and we have to do something about that. The policies


that we have by all accounts are being positively received, but the


message nationally is not getting through. We have got to do much more


work and be working harder to communicate our policies and stop


this being a presidential election campaign, which in this country, it


parliamentary democracy. That is not parliamentary democracy. That is not


what is being out at the moment. What do you think the biggest


battles were in the success of the Tories in the East Midlands, Kay?


Theresa May was absolutely a strength and Jeremy Corbyn is not


playing well for the Labour Party, but the positive thing is that


people actually want Conservative policies, we know that we are party


that manage our fears properly and be a prudent with people's money.


Actually, they are frightening people. You might not agree with


that. We still have a core vote. that. We still have a core vote.


Others you might not agree with that, the fact is that people trust


the Conservative Party to manage their money properly. The proof of


the pudding is in the ballot box, people voted for the Conservatives


in droves because they knew that we were going to offer them what they


actually want. But we are waiting for those manifesto policies. Alan


Greaves, there are reports in the papers this morning that your party


leader Paul Nuttall will announce A1M, one heart immigration policy


that aims for a net migration target of zero and five years, is that the


way to win back voters and how on earth will this work? Well, we are


introducing migration as he city size every year, people do not want


that, I think, that can cause problems in our communities and


problems with our line. We are problems with our line. We are


taking a green spaces, were at the Conservatives going to put these


people? And problems with our line. We are taking a green spaces, were


at the Conservatives going to put these people? In my own Kay, tell us


what the first thing you will be doing now as the new leader? We will


meet our county pay its will. We were not rock the pockets of people


as the Labour Party have done for the last four years, I shall be


looking at the large infrastructure projects and working with the


Midlands engine. I will work with other leaders in our councils around


the area. Including the City Council of Nottingham, we have to work


together. Let me finish. What we need, in Nottinghamshire, but... I


am not Prime Minister yet, that might happen one day, but until I


am, I am dealing in Nottinghamshire and we shall start looking at the


infrastructure. We shall look at business parks, improving broadband,


we have to pay our way and earn our living. If we are going to get


inward investment we will offer people a really good offer like good


housing and schools and roads and housing and schools and roads and


am proud of in Nottinghamshire and am proud of in Nottinghamshire and


We will be it there for the moment. We will be it there for the moment.


-- our market towns will appear the way.


Let's turn our attention now to the general election and two


of the big hitters have been in the East Midlands this weekend


Conservative Party chairman, Sir Patrick McLoughlin,


was in Mansfield and Jeremy Corbyn hit Leicester.


Our political editor Tony Roe spoke to both of them.


Not in living memory has Mansfield had anything but a Labour MP,


some might assume retired miners here are traditional Labour.


It is not that the people have fell out with the Labour Party so much,


I think, they have fell out with Corbyn, they just do not


And one or two more, Diane Abbott and that, like, you know.


For ordinary workers, he is a big problem.


It is going to be 50-50 whether it stops Labour or goes Tory and at one


You must understand, Labour have only got


a 5000 majority here, that can be taken out very quickly.


The Conservatives clearly think they can win here in Mansfield,


they have taken out a front page and a back page advert


But nowhere does it say "Conservative".


A former miner is now the Tory Party chairman in charge


He is here to open a new election office in an 18th-century bakers


These front page adverts you have in the local newspapers,


there has been some criticism that you do not actually say


"Conservative" anywhere on the front page, it is all about Theresa May.


Well, she is the leader of the Conservative Party,


The simple fact is that this election is a choice


between who becomes Prime Minister after the 8th of June,


and it is either going to be Theresa May or it is going to be


Jeremy Corbyn leading a coalition of chaos.


Leicester is a Labour city and party members, 800, they say,


packed into a function room at the Tiger's ground,


to hear from their leader, a leader they say is not


What is in the press and media, that is of no concern to me,


I listen to what is on offer and if I like it, I go with it.


Social media, I think, has a lot more to play than the main


media in elections and things like that because people can


post what they like, nothing is really censored as such


and the word gets out there a lot more, I think,


in terms of what Jeremy is doing for everyday people like me and him.


To blame him solely on what he has done is wrong, he has done


I think what has actually happened is that everyone,


the media does not like him because they are against


A rousing welcome, a speech constantly referencing


Work for the many, not the few, thank you very much.


So, how does he react to Conservatives who are unashamedly


pushing this campaign as a choice between the two leaders?


This is not a presidential election, we are a parliamentary system.


The only people who can vote for Theresa May are those who live


We are a team, we are a team that will deal with the health crisis


in Britain, we are a team that understands the problems of social


care, understands the issues of the National Health Service.


We are also a team that has the determination to build


an economy that works for all by investment.


Later in the day, the campaigning shifted to Derby North,


the Tory seat with the smallest majority, 41, and the Labour leader


was here to support his staunchly pro-Corbyn candidate who says


the election will be a test for Corbyn's politics.


Tony, a bit of the world with all of these leaders visiting us at the


moment. What is your sense as to how the party workers on the ground feel


right now? It is easy to detect confidence and uncertainty and it is


with the Conservatives, they see confidence but they are trying to


temper that confidence and say not to take things for granted.


Remember, the turnout in the local elections is was considered smaller


than a general election, so it is quite hard to play that through and


see what the result will finally be. Jeremy Corbyn made the point


yesterday, saying that he did not think it was as bad as the pundits


are saying, that the gap in the local elections was 11% but it is


considerably more in the opinion polls. Labour must still be reeling


from these results. The local election results, they are


particularly reeling in Derbyshire, where there was a big turnaround and


that is because the board of Ukip went to the Conservatives, as we


thought might happen. But in Nottinghamshire, you have to say,


Labour will look and think this is not as bad as it could have been,


you look at getting in particular, one of those parliamentary seats


where you would think that Vernon Coaker's majority would be washed


away, but they vote for Labour in getting seemed to hold up. It looks


like the biggest danger to the Conservatives right now is the


complacency, isn't it? Particularly at a local elections, people


complain about roads and services but if they do not turn out and


vote, that does not help us at all. I constantly talk to people and I am


sorry to say, a lot of young people have said they will not vote, they


cannot be bothered, they have never voted, that is such a shame. Our


democracy is precious and was hard fought for and won and I think we


should value our vote and I am so sorry when I see people not


exercising that. Opinion polls have said that your party has a big lead,


the Sunday Telegraph this morning has it that you are on course for


the biggest majority in 50 years. Has a central office said to you not


to celebrate too much right now, there is a sense that you are all


playing it down a little bit and do not want to over egg your position.


Nothing like that, no messages have come down not to do that. We have


been around far too long to think or celebrating before it happens. We


must not be complacent and people will not turn out the mess they


think there is something to fight for. I can remember past elections


when people took things for granted, think about Neil Kinnock and when


they thought it was in the bag for the Labour Party. You have to fight


down to the wire. Temp Lee-mac, or pizza, Labour have to move on but


Hardyal Dhindsa. We do not, we have Hardyal Dhindsa. We do not, we have


to get our message across. In Derbyshire, the three areas that we


got parliamentary sitting MPs, they did better than Ruby did not have


MPs and the vote held up for them. Natascha Engel 's, Dennis Skinner,


Toby Perkins, two seats lost in those parliamentary areas and we


have to build on that. We have to see how we engage. It was pretty


clear from what we saw and we heard it in the film from poorly they are


the traditional working class voters in the East Midlands, certainly the


ones that only spoke to in Mansfield area, they do not like Jeremy Corbyn


and that looks like a problem for you here and nationally. They just


do not like him, that is what they told us. I think it is about


engaging with those people in Mansfield and other errors like


that, we have to hear their concerns that, we have to hear their concerns


and they think that is what we are doing, we are trying at the


grassroots to understand their concerns and then we have to


articulate them into our message. The policies that we are putting


forward are having a positive welcome. Tony Cottee about the


position of labour and where the Tories are looking ahead to the


election, other signs of the other parties making progress in the East


Midlands? If you look at the Lib Dems in the East Midlands, they have


gained another seat, the same thing gained another seat, the same thing


happened in Derbyshire, lost one seat, gained another, but going back


to what we have just said, what will be crucial and I think it is a local


thing really, the amount of legwork, the amount of doorknocking, the


amount of people that the party talks too, that makes a real


happening most, I think maybe that happening most, I think maybe that


up. That is going to be crucial and up. That is going to be crucial and


I do not think we should assume anything because local factors can


play a big part in the election. We saw that at the last general


election in the East Midlands. One thing that has clearly been


described as that traditional Labour voters went to Ukip because they


the Labour Party. Now they are going the Labour Party. Now they are going


to the Conservatives. We need to be listening to those people that are


giving the impression and actually giving the message that we are


concerned about them and we want to help them. For example, things like


hour, making sure that working class hour, making sure that working class


and lower paid people are not being taxed. The 80,000... Too many


messages going out? Yes, they are not listening to people, if you go


back to Mansfield which I know well and shop infrequently, the people


there have not been listened to voters and feel left behind. The


Labour Party have to have a good look at things. People are not


ambitious or taught to be ambitious. Very briefly, Tony, before you


leave, what is happening this week? We can expect more big hitters


coming to the East Midlands from all sides. Thank you, Tony. No doubt the


general election will bring in some new faces in Parliament.


But two of our familiar faces in the East Midlands are standing down.


Conservative Sir Edward Garnier and Labour's Graham Allen have more


than 50 years of service between them, but this


weekend they've been packing their bags in Westminster.


Our reporter, John Hess, caught up with them as they prepared


The MPs have gone, so have their advisers,


this place, Parliament, is in a state of hibernation


But two of our best-known politicians are still inside,


clearing their parliamentary offices for the last time.


Rolling up the years and his constituency map,


Sir Edward Garnier packs up his things after 25 years


The constituency achievement I am probably most proud of is the battle


against the Co-op new town, they wanted to build up to 20,000


new houses on farmland, which would have completely


destroyed rural Harborough, it would have turned


Market Harborough almost into a suburb of the


The former Solicitor General has held high-profile government roles,


but that recognition can backfire, as in a chance meeting


He said, "I was told you were part of a Dutch parliamentary delegation.


Whoever let you in should be taken out and shot."


And we had half an hour just chatting and in dealing


with a stranger who had just turned up on the off-chance, he could not


have been more charming, but also more inspiring.


That was one of the great moments of my life.


I'm now on my way to the parliamentary offices of another


one of our MPs who is standing down after 30 years, Nottingham


His staff help with the heavy lifting.


In these boxes, the story of this Labour MP's political battles,


won and lost and his continuing frustration with Parliament itself.


No, not really, I think it has let people down over the last 30 years


when I have been here, it has not raised the issues


I think the House of Commons is not fit for purpose.


It wasn't when I came in and it is not now and we have


seen how it has been rolled over by the government.


Two MPs from very contrasting political traditions.


So what advice would they give now to their successors?


I think it is really important to keep that core of integrity,


whatever else is going on around you, whatever else you need


to do with the media, however many compromises you need


to make in politics to make progress, what do you believe in?


As a politician you have to develop a pretty thick skin


because if you don't, you are in the wrong business.


The door is almost shut on a long parliamentary career,


as two of our senior politicians take a new destination out


It is interesting, isn't it, that Graham Allen who is stepping down


after 30 years seems very disillusioned as he leaves


Parliament. As politicians who work outside Westminster, do you share


that view? Absolutely not, I am extraordinarily proud of Parliament.


We had a referendum and then it all settle down. Where else does that


happen? No bloodshed, I am proud of our parliamentarians and our MPs. I


do not think he is saying that, he simply saying that he is


disillusioned. Do you share that view? He has been a great MP and has


been really committed to making social change and the early


intervention programme he was involved than that, so in that area


he did not see enough progress and I think that is where has this


appointment is. Personally, I think you have to be in there to keep


fighting for the things that you believe in and Graham Allen has been


doing that for 20, 30 years. Thank you for that.


That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands.


Thanks to Kay Cutts and Hardyal Dhindsa.


Next week, Graham Allen is our guest in the studio,


along with the former Conservative MP, Jessica Lee.


housing associations and investment, but we have run out of time, thank


you. Andrew. Four weeks to go until polling day


on the 8th of June, what will the party strategies be for the


remaining four weeks? Let's begin with the Conservatives. Do they just


try to continue to play it safe for four weeks? Yes, with this important


qualification. Theresa May Corp this election to get her own personal


mandate partly, partly because she thought she would win big but to get


her own personal mandate. Therefore, she needs to define it. In her own


interests and to do with accountability to the country. So


clearly, they will not take risks when they are so far ahead in the


polls. What they do say in the manifesto matters in


terms of the space that she has in the coming years to define her


leadership against David Cameron 's. She is a free figure, partly on the


basis of what she says as to how big she wins. They cannot just play it


safe and repeat their mantra of strong and stable leadership, if she


is going to claim her own mandate, they need the top policy? Yes, and


what is unusual about this is that the manifesto matters far more


because of what they need to do with it afterwards, than in terms of


whether it is going to win anybody over now. Clearly, the strategy is


yes, we do have two layout out a few things, there are interesting


debates as to whether, for example, they will still commit to this


ambition of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, we do not


know the answer yet. It is a question on whether she is setting


herself up for difficulties later on. It will be a short manifesto, I


would venture to guess? It is in her interests to be as noncommittal as


possible, that argues for a short manifesto but what does strike me


about the Conservative campaign, aside from the ambiguity on policy,


is how personal it is. I think Theresa May, in her most recent


speech, referred to "My local candidates", rather than


Parliamentary candidates, very much framing it as a presidential


candidate in France or the USA. Not a rational on her part. Everything I


hear from the MPs on the ground and the focus groups being done by the


parties, is that a big chunk of the population personally identify with


her. If you can wrap up Middle England into a physical object and


embody it in a person, it would be her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's


unpopularity accounts for a big slice of her popularity, she has


done a good job of bonding with the public. We never saw that coming!


But you may well be right. That is happening now. Labour say it wants


the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell to play a more prominent role in the


Labour campaign, he was on The Andrew Marr Show this morning and he


was asked if he was a Marxist, he denied that he was. It surprised me


as I had seen tape from before saying that he was proud of it.


Let's look now and then. Are you a Marxist? I believe that there is a


lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe that there is a lot to learn from


reading capital, that is recommended not only by me but measuring


economists as well. I also believe that in the long tradition of the


Labour Party... We need to demand systemic change. I am a Marxist.


This is a classic crisis of the economy. A capitalist crisis. I've


been waiting for this for a generation! That was from about four


years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist, yes, I am a Marxist... I've been


waiting for the Marxist revolution my whole life... Does this kind of


thing matter? Yes, but in fairness, I think he is a really good


interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have untested figures in a national


campaign. None have ever been exposed at any level to a national


media campaign that they are about to experience. He is the best


interviewee. In fairness to him, when he gave that clip four years


ago, I bet he never dream that he would be in a senior front bench


position. But the background is clear. They are of the left, and I


think they would all have described it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done,


he is close to being like Tony Benn. There are about four Labour campaign


is being fought in this election. Their campaign, the old Shadow


Cabinet, campaigning in constituencies, but not identifying


with that campaign. There is the former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is


it damaging? I think so, if they could be damaged any further, I


could see all of the Labour MPs with their heads in their hands. What I


am hearing from Labour MPs is that there is not one of them who do not


feel that they have a horrendous battle on their hands. These will be


very individual local campaigns, where local MPs are winning despite


the party leadership and not because of it. Already, talk is turning to


what happens next. Is there anyway that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a


horrendous set of general election results as many anticipate, may stay


on all the same? It is not clear that even if the polls are right,


that Mr Corbyn will go? John McDonnell implied it might not be


the case but previously, he said it would be. What do you make of


reports that the Labour strategy is not, I cannot quite believe I am


saying this, not to win seats but maximise a share of the vote. If


they do better than Ed Miliband with 30.5% of the vote, they believe they


live to fight another day? Yes, it reminded me of Tony Benn's speech


after the 1983 election where they said as bad as the Parliamentary


defeat was there were 8 million votes for socialism. A big section


of public opinion voted for that manifesto. I wonder whether that is


Corbyn's supporters best chance of holding onto power. Whether they can


say that those votes are a platform on which we can build. That said,


even moderate Labour MPs and desperate for a quick leadership


contest. I hear a lot of them say that they would like to leave it for


one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as an acting Labour leader. He would


still have a mandate. Give the top party a chance to regroup and get


rid of some of its problems and decide where it stands on policy.


Most importantly, for potential candidates to show what they are


made of, rather than lurching straight into an Yvette Cooper


Coronation. 30 seconds on the Liberal Democrats, their strategy


was to mop up the Remain vote. Uncertain about the Brexit party in


demise. Ukip. The remain as have a dilemma, the little Democrats are


not a strong enough vessel with 89 MPs to risk all ongoing for them --


the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not know where they stand on Brexit.


There is not a robust alternative vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit


Conservative Party. At the moment. Four weeks to go, but not for


France... France has been voting since early


this morning, and we should get a first estimate of who will be


the country's next President Just to warn you there are some


flashing images coming up. The choice in France


is between a centre-left liberal reformer Emmanuel Macron


and a right-wing nationalist Marine Le Pen - both have been


casting their votes this morning. The two candidates topped


a field of 11 presidential hopefuls in the first


round of elections last month. The campaign has been marked


by its unpredictability, and in a final twist on Friday


evening, just before campaigning officially ended,


Mr Macron's En Marche! group said it had been the victim


of a "massive" hack, with a trove of documents


released online. The Macron team said real documents


were mixed up with fake ones, and electoral authorities warned


media and the public that spreading details of the leaks would breach


strict election rules. I'm joined now from


Paris by the journalist As I left Paris recently, everybody


told me that there was the consensus that Mr Macron would win, and win


pretty comfortable you. Is there any reason to doubt that? -- pretty


comfortably. I don't think so, there have been so many people left and


right, former candidates who have decided that it was more important


to vote for Macron, even if it was agreed with him, then run the risk


of having Marine Le Pen as president. I think the spread is now


20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le Pen. So outside of the margin of


error that it would take something huge for this to be observed. If the


polls are right and Mr Macron wins, he has to put together a government,


and in May there is a Coronation, then he faces parliamentary


elections in June and could face a fractured parliament where he does


not have a clear majority for his reforms. He could then faced


difficulties in getting his programme through? I think that


right now, with how things are looking, considering you have one


half of the Republican party, the Conservative Party, they are making


clear sides, not only that they want to support Macron but are supporting


him actively. It means looking at the equivalent of the German party,


the great coalition. Depending on how many seats established parties


keep in the house committee may very well have a Republican Prime


Minister, rather than having an adversarial MP, he may have someone


who is relatively unknown outside of France, and a young woman. Contended


that lost the Parez mayorship three years ago. She is a scientist and


has been secretary of state. She would be an interesting coalition


Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le Pen, if she goes down to defeat a


night, does she have the stomach and ambition, and the energy, to try it


all again in 2022? She has all of that. The question is, would they


let her? How badly would she lose? Her niece, now 27, a hard-working


and steady person, unlike Marine Le Pen, who flunked her do paid --


debate, her niece may decide that 2022 is her turn. Yet another Le


Pen! All right, we will see. Just five years to wait, but only a few


hours until the results of the election tonight.


And we will get the exit polls here on the BBC. Given the exit polls


will give as a pretty fair indication of what the result is


going to be tonight. That will be on BBC news. That's all for today.


The Daily Politics will cover every turn of this election campaign,


And we're back here on BBC One at our usual time Next Sunday.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


Our crack team of experts use pioneering research


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Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby are joined by Labour's shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon and Ukip's Neil Hamilton to discuss the local election results. On the political panel are Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards and Janan Ganesh.

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