26/03/2017 Sunday Politics East

It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

but do the security services have the resources and

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

done" - we'll speak to him and the party's

Here in the east, shock and disappointment in Clacton

after the local MP resigns from UKIP, and says he will be

And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee

and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack

The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,

but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -

one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.

His target was the very heart of our democracy,

the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres

of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.

Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's

close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity

at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.

Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we

be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary

response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as

prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive

way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and

national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to

whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put

more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor

sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder

whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around

the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,

as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on

social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the

attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to

the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.

Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while

an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the

weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the

world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it

stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for

years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the

chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,

so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of

London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that

the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this

is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think

from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a

poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to

imagine the emergency services and local people, international

visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our

Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards

shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.

It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values

that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.

So, four days after the attack, what more do we know

The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains

Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.

According to a police timeline, that's how long it took

Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster

to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...

to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard

The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.

The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:

"We would like to express our gratitude to the people

who were with Keith in his last moments and who were

There was nothing more you could have done,

you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."

Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.

Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp

The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging

There should be no place for terrorists to hide.

We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,

and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret

place for terrorists to communicate with each other.

It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just

listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,

legally, through warrantry, but in this situation

we need to make sure that our intelligence services

have the ability to get into situations like encrypted

She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions

at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out

But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be

..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.

We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,

the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.

What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I

can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,

because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but

to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80

counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,

using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the

very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also

tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring

this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made

available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do

we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired

or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being

led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate

on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the

attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in

Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin

Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last

year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved

have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of

them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians

in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a

gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of

attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at

least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.

Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those

involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is

going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?

Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least

the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the

only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see

in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for

example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the

security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,

Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that

could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at

least the first indications from what police are saying in London,

these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of

the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised

community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a

dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised

individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult

when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that

they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the

work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices

that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home

Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps

like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they

encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services

to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for

that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years

there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are

becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more

and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,

and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the

ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not

when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,

for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have

to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of

these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a

more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is

certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying

to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree

certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative

solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide

but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done

to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of

communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our

lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.

Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House

What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of

Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very

courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to

be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident

of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but

also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already

under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and

security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get

reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary

security director, and just as security matters in parliament are

kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as

a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the

issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling

events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their

lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is

it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,

where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening

for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led

to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last

couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have

actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would

expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security

matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at

all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the

security authorities and in particular for the police and direct

command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it

because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers

this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no

position to comment on the details of the operation but my

understanding is that the number of people available is what the police

and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and

that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it

not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left

unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so

that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able

to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that

case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't

yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody

involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who

was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.

We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were

concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the

attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with

a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it

is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be

pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.

To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the

witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what

happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any

changes need to be made in light of that.

We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence

Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced

the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details

but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have

been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has

been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a

so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the

Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this

simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that

is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader

of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals

who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by

the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in

public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been

reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it

raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions

should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are

kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both

in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the

palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the

perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was

a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at

carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed

guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to

look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.

There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't

know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will

find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If

you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to

be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed

accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about

lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is

important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview

of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered

view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will

be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins

our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on

Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper

that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's

not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts

of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the

commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime

Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has

been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It

doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational

mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an

agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies

that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police

cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all

countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it

will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?

Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context

of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the

departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply

not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a

discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we

all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we

will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is

possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The

question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the

subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?

Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have

to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate

the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once

David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the

national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady

progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good

piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a

substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out

some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU

programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50

billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So

50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get

into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting

very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum

there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of

separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find

out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The

Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which

is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision

of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in

a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity

and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the

Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on

Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will

see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine

thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII

powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to

avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities

Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory

footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those

EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another

regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to

have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European

regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come

in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those

powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the

parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And

if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the

Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary

legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the

constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill

and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House

of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those

powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.

David Lidington, thank you for being with us.

So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.

He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party

almost three years ago, but yesterday announced

that he was quitting to sit as an independent.

His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,

"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".

But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell

criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as

Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage

was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell

opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.

Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances

of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,

Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,

Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.

Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have

decided that I will be leaving Ukip."

When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014

he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.

"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring

This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.

We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.

Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your

only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at

a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not

surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the

past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage

certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime

which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had

done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering

over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a

more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he

expected to be pushed out your national executive committee

tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to

answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the

last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue

surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came

out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to

answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did

jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out

of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear

is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the

party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,

you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a

pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,

doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to

rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over

the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will

rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have

a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post

Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he

said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the

skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't

it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November

the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the

party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem

money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look

forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit

test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have

been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you

will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,

not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,

he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that

but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for

the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be

interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster

attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's

extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like

Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I

personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I

will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem

within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the

way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr

Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the

problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate

communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would

extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in

Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,

as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme

vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question

too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get

you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in

Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has

left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to

go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people

in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should

have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.

Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.

Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are

becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted

myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to

trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons

resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the

democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran

parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,

I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage

has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants

to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going

to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his

constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr

Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from

Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the

opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not

always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an

e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,

overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you

are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,

Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June

the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be

absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is

right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the

European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one

another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline

the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I

have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.

You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made

the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made

it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote

Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would

win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of

that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas

I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history

proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk

often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part

of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic

policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to

sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave

certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They

freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel

still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for

Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and

we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like

Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is

to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why

can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but

you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this

than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten

years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in

2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in

2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left

us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically

gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her

record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,

nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of

thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the

size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of

thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The

problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the

argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted

her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until

she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,

just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.

Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee

into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what

people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself

with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip

to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will

come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit

Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill

and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas

Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in

the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were

Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a

Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a

Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a

party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree

with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into

2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote

Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you

fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and

I'm Stewart White. much.

Yesterday the MP for Clacton, Douglas Carswell, delivered

He resigned from UKIP, saying "the job's done".

But there will not be a by-election and he intends

In 2005 Douglas Carswell became the MP for Harwich, beating Labour's

Ivan Henderson. He came to prominence for years later leading

the effort that ousted the speaker Michael Martin in the wake of the

MPs expenses scandal. All 650 MPs need to be made personally

accountable for how they spent every pound of public money. Is

constituency of Clacton had baby changes in 2010 where he won for the

Tories and then came the shock defection to Ukip in 2014. I am

leaving the Conservative Party has joining Ukip. You became the first

and only Ukip MP in a by-election, and only Ukip MP in a by-election,

with the big majority. That was cut in the general election of 2015. His

relationship with Nigel Farage has been difficult, particularly when he

decided to join a different campaign group to the Ukip leader during the

referendum. He has decided to resign from Ukip saying he trusts trees are

made to deliver Brexit. He will now sit as an independent MP.

Here with me are UKIP MEP Stuart Agnew and Professor Paul Whiteley

Douglas Carswell said it is an amicable split, but is it? Ukip

councillors in Clacton city are glad to see him go. Some voters in the

area who backed him as the MP feel let down.

Once again the people of Clacton find themselves at the centre of a

For your MP to leave the party has been elected to

represent once might be considered understandable what to do it twice

It is down to him at the end of the day, if he

wants to do that we can't really do a lot about it, can we?

Is that passion and that drive for your party isn't there any more

then I think he has made the right decision to step away.

Do you think you could still has a role?

Yes I do, yes, I think they can speed up

the process and get us what we need from the EU before we leave.

Isn't it bad thing if the one MP leaves?

When he joined Ukip in 2014 Douglas Carswell

and the man he called his

new best friend Nigel were mobbed by Ukip supporters.

But since then relations between the MP and some in

How else do you explain this reaction?

I personally feel a great sense of cleansing, I think we have

had a deep and gaping wound ever since Douglas joined the party.

Douglas for all intents and purposes is Douglas,

and he has really been quite independent for some time now,

you may notice if you go to his office you will not see the word

That has been the case for many months.

So I don't think the people of Clacton

will see a great deal of change from that point of view.

I think some will feel it's truly disappointed

Mr Carswell was in the front row to applaud Paul Nuttall

when he took over as leader last year.

Despite continued run-ins with Nigel Farage and some of his

supporters, the Clacton MP told me only two weeks ago that he was very

happy inside Ukip and felt that the party

was carving out a new role for

Personally I am devastated, I ran Douglas's campaign when he

first was elected as the first Ukip MP so I am personally very

But listening to reading what our party

leader has been out today I believe there were issues that were never

Conservative Party members in Clacton cant help

smirking, the man who stood against Mr Carswell in the last two

elections said this is just the latest sign that Ukip is falling

As an innocent bystander it has been great entertainment, Ukip

locally, some of them have moved back to us in the District Council,

as you might know we have had some of back

in the last year, the

slitting and subdividing and subdividing and who knows?

It seems to be imploding but it might get

some cohesion somewhere but I can see that at the moment.

The travel for Ukip is that this is happening

all over the region, the party's leader Norfolk County Council Toby

Cook resigned this week in a row over candidate selection.

Its leader in Suffolk stormed out a few months

ago and nearly every Ukip county council

in Essex has decided not to

stand again in this year 's elections.

Ukip's problems seem to be down to three things, a lack of

strong leadership, no one seems to be

banging head together at the

moment and then there is political inexperience.

Many councillors have found local government hard work and

have become disillusioned at how long it takes to get things done.

And then there is the whole question about Ukip's future, post-referendum

Clacton once again finds itself back in the

I think he has probably thought about this very

careful about what he has done his he has thought about it

from his own gains and perspective that he had

not thought about the people he is representing and we now need a

member of Parliament that is actually going to put

As we can see Douglas Carswell is waiting to speak to us. That last

point, you are thinking only of Douglas Carswell and not of the

people of Clacton. I don't think anyone can accuse me of acting on

self-interest, I paid my own position in the House of Commons at

some risk by during a party that had never won a seat in order to try and

make sure we got a referendum. I have been consistent and the one

thing I have always wanted to do is get it out of the EU. That process

starts on Wednesday and I feel it is right for me to say aye will be

leaving Ukip. I do understand that are good people in Ukip, that are

good people who made the switch to Ukip, some of them likely will go

back to other parties, some don't. You have said to me a number of

times over the years when you have the by-election when you left the

Conservatives that it was the right thing to do. Why is not the right

thing to do, to have a by-election now? I am not going from one party

to another, I am not saying I will submit myself to the width of a new

party. If I was to make that transition them quite likely I would

need the permission of the electorate but in a sense I have

seen I don't have a whip, or other I have 70,000 of them and the occult

directly to them and if I was directly to them and if I was

joining the Conservative Party any other party quite like that I would

need to call a by-election. I take seriously the idea of accountability

to the voter. I was after the first member of Parliament in a generation

to insist on submitting myself to a by-election but I am not making the

jump from one party to another. I have seen that I am not subject to

any web at all. With respect that is semantics, you are giving up the

party you are elected to represent. It is profoundly important because

if you move to a world in which any MP who either loses resigned the

whip has to face a by-election then far from isolated eggs and the

voters against the party establishment you strengthen party

bosses against everyone else. It is a profound and fundamental point. It

is also something I have given a great deal of thought too over the

years and have been rigidly consistent on. Nigel Farage says you

jumped before you were pushed and you were never a Ukip sort that IQ

are never Ukip and use to undermine them. We have something in the piece

from Andrew Sinclair, a cleansing, this will be, said one of your cal

-- councillors. And Davies a wonderful council and woman is

obviously disappointed. She has her views and I have enormous respect

for her. I will not say anything uncharitable or in kind. What I

would say is that at a national level there are some in Ukip are

criticising me and attacking me when I said I wasn't going to leave and

now that I am leaving the attacking. Maybe one or two people actually

discovered if the forwarding my seat. Do you really think you can

represent the people of Clacton best as an independent when actually they

voted for you as a Ukip? I think I can do a better job. Two reasons,

one is that I am no longer encumbered by the pretence that I

must represent 4 million people in the House of Commons, I can focus on

what I am there to do which is make sure we keep over the minor injuries

unit of Clacton hospital and focus on local issues which are the

bread-and-butter of politics. The second thing is that I set out

yesterday before I made the announcement and e-mail to about

20,000 constituents. Mike or vote if you like and I have been overwhelmed

by the positive response with the exceptionally tiny handful, everyone

has come back and so far said why didn't you do this sooner? Are you

frightened of a by-election? I am not frightened at all, I rather

enjoy by-elections. I called one and I think I am right in saying it is

the largest 20 any election in British nautical history but I am

not during another party to do not need the permission of the voters to

submit to the whip of the authority of another party. I am sacking all

of my obligations to political parties and is on submitting myself

directly to 70,000 voters. Your share of the vote went down

dramatically in the general election from the by-election. A mathematical

fact. I expect my share of the vote now that I am not part of Ukip

Meikle up but we will find out soon enough. 2020 is not that far away. I

expect they may be an election before then. The Conservatives seem

to be overjoyed that you are leaving Ukip, I know you have just avoided

the question on national television. Given us a straight answer here.

Would you like to be the next Conservative candidate for Clacton?

It is not my choice, it is for local Conservative Party members to make

if I was to apply for the job but you know right now I am not inclined

to do so. We have three years on a couple of years at least to run and

what I want to do is support a Brexit government. Theresa May is,

if I may say, is doing a fantastic job. We have pre-Minister, we have

come in and Blair and Mandelson Osborne who were the same, we now

have some who is fundamentally different and on the side of the

country and I want to see how things progress. You're seeing you have a

lot in common with the Tories, you voted with the most of the time in

Parliament. If I may say aye think that the leadership of the Tory

party has embraced the Vote Leave agenda has quite a lot in common

with those of us who have been campaigning to leave the EU. I am

delighted that ministers who one year ago said that we had to leave

and every voted to leave it would be the end of the world are now so

successfully and passionately negotiating her withdrawal from the

EU. I am not going to remind them that they changed their mind, I will

quietly support them and make sure that we make good on a promise to

take back control of our borders, our democracy, I don't care what

colour of rosette the ministers where riders want to make sure

happens. You're the leader of your own party if you're independent,

someone once said of you that you could not be the leader of a party

because she would start a rebellion. If you live in the past couple of

years that is probably some substance in that accusation. In

politics you fundamentally must remember who your boss is. The

voter. And I no longer have a party to get between me and representing

what I think is an -- is in their interest. I can focus on keeping

open the minor injuries unit at Clacton hospital and make sure our

bill does not take away our ticketing machines. These are the

things that I get really worked up about. We can slightly move away

from the macro issues and I can focus under edited unreserved on

being a constituency MP. What do you say to those people we met in the

street who said they felt let down by you? That are good people who

obviously are going to think that I'm going to say that, and I respect

that and I understand that but you are always going to be able to

find... Had been treated this way, if I was talking to you now about

triggering a by-election having just triggered one, you may find one or

two people in Clacton perhaps those same people who might say that

actually it was unnecessary by-election and unnecessary expense

for the public purse. One or two people who are always going to be

slightly critical of you will be critical to much whatever you do.

Thank you for joining us. Lets Doctor guessed about that.

Stuart Agnew your reaction. He has a right to leave our party but we did

put a considerable notably source to get him elected under our colours

two years ago and I feel there should be a by-election. His

constituents, his bosses should be consulted and if they return him as

an independent well and good but if they vote for some body else when

that is the way it should go. Looking at what he has done, it

seems to be history has repeated itself a little bit for me. I

remember Kilroy silk, how pleased remember Kilroy silk, how pleased

they were when he joined the party and it was a relief when he went. I

was delighted when Douglas did what he did two years ago or whenever it

was but one can't deny the fact there has been a steady drift away.

There is a steady drift away from your party isn't there? Councillors.

Why is that? Because there is this feeling of Orwell we are going to

get this Article 50 and the job is done but actually it isn't done,

good station means giving ground in the first ground they will give is

the fishing ground. That is obvious now. There will be other grounds

given and it is up to us to let the public know about this, that they

are being let down. After all to reason me was a remain conservative

who sat on the fence, she has always talked big in the past and is

talking big now. It is only now that we will see if this will result in

walking. Do you agree with that? Is walking. Do you agree with that? Is

that your assessment? Ukip has gone through a perfect storm in the last

period since the referendum. It has a winners curse if I can put it that

way. Actually winning the issue that everybody identifies with the party

and once that has happened people naturally ask the question, what is

it for? And it is going through that problem. Secondly it has lost a

charismatic leader in the form of Nigel Farage. He's what they call a

Marmite politician, somebody people really like or they really don't

like. But Paul Nuttall is a poor substitute for Nigel Farage because

he was charismatic and they have lost that. The third thing of course

is as we saw in the early interviews, they are really fighting

like ferrets in a sack, and this is not a good thing if you want to

attract the public will stop the public will be bemused by this

infighting and people leaving at the local level, resigning their

positions in the party. As a consequence it is facing a real

problem. But he was a thing to think about. There was a poll conducted a

couple of weeks ago by you of, they are still an 11% in voting

intentions in the country is a whole and that is slightly below the two

other half percent they got in the general election in 2015. I don't

think they are out, they are facing problems but I don't think they have

been knocked out. Let me show you figures from 2015. The share in this

region went up from 4% to 16% in 2015. Is it down from the now do you

think? It is a little bit but you have to recognise that they

for a constituency in Britain as a for a constituency in Britain as a

whole and in the region, they speak for people who felt left behind by

and what academics call and what academics call

globalisation, a horrible word. They speak for people who are threatened

culturally by a large amount of immigration that has taken place

over the years so they have a constituency. If I were them, and I

am not, but if I where I would rebrand myself. I think what their

role is is an English national party, EMP if you like, they can

make the future by speaking for the constituency on those grounds. But

they have to break with the label Ukip now that the referendum has

been settled and we are getting out of the EU. One of the other things

that Mr Carswell and Ukip disagreed on was actually immigration. Yes.

Are you pleased he's gone? Yes, because you say please, I am

disappointed actually that it has come to this. I'm not screaming with

delight about it. But there was no two ways around it, he was not as

strong on immigration as we are. That is where we see, we had a

party, a pressure party you might say, we identify something happening

in the country would other political parties away from and we make that

the issue. It looks as though we have won it on Brexit but that is

still not quite there yet. The next big problem of the other two I

worked, immigration and integration. The other parties are backing away

from that. There hasn't been a prosecution on FGM apart from a

spurious one. We know that forced marriages going on but nothing is

being done. We know there is this honour violence. Will you rebrand?

that my colleague made here. It is that my colleague made here. It is

worth a great deal of money. Apparently the Ukip brand is among

country so to depart from that country so to depart from that

there's a big commercial risk and the discussion is made within Ukip

frequently, and we have a different sign? The pound is all about the

euro in that battle has been one but then we are reminded that we have a

very valuable brand and we should stick with it. Your support, albeit

still quite strong, is falling. And when you see what is going on with

Mr Carswell and the local council, it will be hard to rebuild from the

wanted? It is going to be easier than it was in the early days of

getting the party going and getting a brand. Now we have another

direction to take a graphical jibber the immigration and there's more to

it, that is all this nonsense of having a very expensive energy

policy because of global warming, we're the only party to take

head-on. Do you think these are things that the electorate will warm

to? It is tough because the most effective slogan in the Brexit

referendum was take back control. That worked well. But the

substitutes slogan seems to be we will keep an eye on the

Conservatives on Brexit. It is not quite so snappy is it? It isn't. So

I think they need a branding -- a rebranding. Despite the point that

the Ukip brand may be valuable I think they need to rename themselves

and orientate to represent the constituency have spoken about. You

see this across Europe. Parties like Ukip are doing well across Europe

for the same reasons and that is why I don't think the party will

disappear. OK. What we will do now disappear. OK. What we will do now

is have a round-up of our political week. It will take is 60 seconds and

here we go. MPs have been told that Norfolk has

one of the highest rates in the country for students who have

been permanently The number has almost doubled

for 172 300 in the last two years. Given the awful results for children

who are permanently excluded, what message does it send to Norfolk

to sort out this The new combined authority

for Peterborough and Cambridgeshire held its first meeting this week

in Wisbech after receiving ?100 It is about those parts of Cambridge

and Peterborough who perhaps in the past have not gotten

all the support they needed. Meanwhile Norwich MP

Clive Lewis had questions about George Osborne's new job

as editor of the evening standard. I will declare an interest

as a former NCTJ qualified journalist and also a member

of the National Union of Journalists which I hope the Right Honourable

member from Tatton will be I remember the honourable

gentleman's admissions And Suffolk MP Jo Churchill

did her bit for comic relief. Just before we go, do you think that

Mr Carswell will go back to the Tories? Definitely. He has given

himself three years to ingratiate himself with unmanned with a year's

time people will start as campaign there. I think your interview shows

he's applying for the job already. So that is a yes as well. Both of

you thank you. That's all from us, don't forget you can watch the

programme online through our website but for now from

can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank

you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.

So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday

at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document

Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -

overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,

And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,

will trigger Article 50, formally starting

The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,

made an appeal for unity at the gathering.

Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations

that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.

At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,

they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic

circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith

Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on

that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important

figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our

divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new

crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international

trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,

by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is

inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member

states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because

that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I

think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.

Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow

setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise

Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that

doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would

be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member

states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is

effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is

not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent

but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the

Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it

ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification

process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:

Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact

that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,

there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and

quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and

disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries

celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful

movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not

there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there

now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that

we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!

I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place

envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why

people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look

at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not

possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they

will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?

I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be

surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal

decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to

buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed

and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can

happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany

which could really result in a change of Government... That is the

big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw

that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into

the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory

observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,

if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional

agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council

doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French

elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second

round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be

representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine

le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a

party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to

sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote

d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that

and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no

longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form

a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you

know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we

are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big

task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional

arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year

timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us

on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a

meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is

going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and

agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government

eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a

take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have

campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it

wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our

parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the

negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated

areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the

campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council

and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity

for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the

Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time

devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog

about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU

march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to

Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the

European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of

national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people

like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is

for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it

happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were

lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,

if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their

minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even

begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.

Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that

credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the

Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even

then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's

interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free

movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single

market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that

outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are

pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least

let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea

of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really

did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want

external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the

momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the

banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news

was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force

from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our

resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right

that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and

that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining

movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we

will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course

those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been

such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she

blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about

this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's

job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think

you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and

everywhere else where there are British citizens would have

responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU

counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that

until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk

about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a

better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU

citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow

at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.

And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow

night from Birmingham - with guests including

the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,

former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -

I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.

Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's