29/09/2013 Sunday Politics London

do with the lack of talent, it is Sunday Politics. David Cameron

house-buyers with deposits. Is he merely stoking a new house price

bubble? As Tory activist 's gather in Manchester, we will have the

results of our exclusive survey in Manchester, we will have the

Conservative councillors. I will be William Hague. And Ed Miliband made

headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months after

headlines with his pledge to freeze the next election. But does the

headlines with his pledge to freeze policy really stack up? Shadow

Energy Secretary Caroline Flint Conservative London politicians

Underground should be made illegal, something the Prime Minister doesn't

With me are a trio of top political commentators. All three will be

tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the

afternoon. We have already been cases just their thought through the

afternoon. We have already been bombarded with a series of policy

announcements, a tax break for married couples of up to £200 per

year, more money on life extending cancer treatments and, last night,

the news that the second stage of next year. David Cameron says it is

all about helping hard-working people. Right now, you can't get,

95% mortgage. That means a typical family with two people earning

20,000, 25,000, they are being asked, to buy an average house,

20,000, 25,000, they are being mortgage payment, but they can't get

the mortgage. They can't buy their flat or house. As Prime Minister,

I'm not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the

housing ladder, to own their own flat or home, is being trashed.

housing ladder, to own their own is why we need to act. A predictable

attempt by party leadership to kick-start the conference with

eye-catching policies. The polls show a big bounce for Ed Miliband

and the Labour Party, with decent numbers for UKIP. What do party

councillors as they travel to their For the Conservatives this weekend,

conference, and as a scene setter we asked ComRes to survey councillors

are Finland and Wales. Councillors asked ComRes to survey councillors

like Tom, packing for conference at home in Wellingborough. Immigration

is an issue for him. He thinks there are pros and cons. But we found

is an issue for him. He thinks there immigration has had a negative

reflects into this wider issue of our relationship with Europe. People

possible influx of ovarian and Romania emigrants. Obviously the

issue of Europe is very big. -- are worried about the rise of the UK

issue of Europe is very big. -- councillors thought that their

issue of Europe is very big. -- should make a pact with UKIP. The

issue of Europe is very big. -- concern is, yes, will they take

talking about them. A pact? Depends what they say, anything is possible.

What would you like to see? Ideally, from my point of view, a national

pact. David Cameron arrived in Manchester last night. Around the

same time as these activists from London. I broke the news to them

that in our survey just 26% of Tory councillors think that the prime

ministers in touch with the lives of ordinary people. The same at all

Conservatives, you don't judge people by their background. It's not

where they come from, it is where they are going to. It is not a

where they come from, it is where problem that he is a bit on the

where they come from, it is where side? Cull you might describe him

like that, I would not use those words. Explain your T-shirt, it

like that, I would not use those phrase that a senior Cameron person

is alleged to have used about you? It is a humorous way of letting

is alleged to have used about you? party now that we are here to say

important. We are not going away any time soon. A sentiment you will

important. We are not going away any a lot at this conference, because

just 22% of councillors in our survey said that David Cameron was

any good at listening to the people that work hard for his party. That

was Adam. Joining me now from the Conservative Party conference in

William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Over one in

five Tory councillors in our survey large majority did not want a pact

with UKIP at the next election. large majority did not want a pact

have noticed that UKIP, in local been for the Conservatives. I think

have noticed that UKIP, in local we have to make sure that people

election they are choosing between a we have to make sure that people

Conservative and Labour Government, we have to make sure that people

as David Cameron as Prime Minister general election is different from

the local government perspective. It is pretty unusual, some might say

unprecedented, for a large chunk of one of the big parties in this

country to want to go into coalition one of the big parties in this

with a smaller party before an happened? Looking at your survey,

three times as many didn't want happened? Looking at your survey,

with statistics, you can highlight it whichever way around you want to.

The point is, we are not having pacts with other parties, electoral

pacts with other parties. You rule it out? That is not going to happen.

What we do want is to have a pact it out? That is not going to happen.

with the voters, if you like, as we have often done in the Conservative

Party. We have won over the voters of other parties to support our

important with those people that say important with those people that say

they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour

government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend,

government in the exact opposite of Conservative and decide to vote

government in the exact opposite of UKIP instead in a general election.

That could help to produce a Labour government. The chairman of the

That could help to produce a Labour committee, the elected voice of

Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had

once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.

Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European

elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,

European treaties the concept of ever closer union, a concept that in

believed in. We would like that ever closer union, a concept that in

consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the

examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly

over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general

there will be a negotiation of a new the European actions but the general

their area think that George Osborne to be negotiated. Only 11% of your

their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.

is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The

important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What

George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

new jobs in the private sector, renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them.

for hard-working people, by reducing Help To Buy scheme that we are

highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,

I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed

Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do

about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people

on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.

Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going

to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened

now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not

happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of

Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened

under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in

opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big

change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is,

change in oil prices then the policy would dry up some of the investment

in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise.

in the energy industry. I don't a party that presided over council

government, -- last government, a party that presided over council

not very credible. Why is George Osborne going against the European

Well, we don't want to see the and over this country. Can the

should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have

never signed up to such matters things in our own country. We have

European institutions. If you allow one thing that wasn't meant to be

decided to be decided, you find one thing that wasn't meant to be

there are another ten or 20 things that affect many other people. We

are very vigilant about what we that affect many other people. We

competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was

meant to have. That is one of the referendum, do want a new deal in

Europe. That is what we intend to institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

the LIBOR rates. The founder of institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it

back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own

Which he made out of ICAP. As people have to other parties, people are

free to do that and they should have to other parties, people are

free to do that. I am not aware have to other parties, people are

any plan for that to be repaid. Because you can't afford to. Let's

recap this. We have seen Tory MPs parrot propaganda lines from the

energy companies this week. We have the Chancellor going to court to

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. We have a top Tory donor the centre

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. of yet another city scandal. Ed

Miliband is right when he says you lot are on the side of the vested

interests so the rich and powerful, isn't he? Well, again, look at the

record. I just did! 1.4 million extra jobs in the private sector, 25

Help To Buy scheme which is going to million people with a tax cut, a

Help To Buy scheme which is going to help so many people, particularly

young people have the house that future. Council tax bills held down,

young people have the house that welfare reform so that it pays to

work. Actually, this is a government people and that will be highlighted

While President Laugharne he's weapons programme. -- is talking.

It would be hard to say from week to week whether it is speeding up

continuing with it. That is why to week whether it is speeding up

say the new message - the new words - from Iranian leadership are very

welcome. I said that to the Foreign Minister in New York over the last

few days but it is the actions that will count. At the moment, the

nuclear programme continues. We negotiations on that and that will

be a very important test as to whether actions will match the

words. When will we know it if we are being strung along? He has

strung as a long in the past as are being strung along? He has

nuclear weapons negotiator. When will we know if he is not just

doing that again? Over the next will we know if he is not just

weeks, it will be a very important time. He has said there should be

more transparency over the Iranian transparent in many regards at the

moment. The atomic agency is asking for information that is not being

given. One test is, in the coming information? The information that

the international of authority is asking for about their nuclear

programme. We will be able to form a view of this in the coming weeks

or months. It is important we test their new willingness to talk to us

important to find out whether they asking, is the nuclear programme

really continuing? Are they really negotiations and offer something

Council on Friday night, is the Year, Syria still has a chemical

Council on Friday night, is the that allow full force? I did not

catch that. Does that allow for Security Council resolution about

Iraq, which most people concluded in not allow full force. It does

not specify that. It talks about terms seven of the charter. That is

a message of the whole UN Security Council that there will be measures

- there will be consequences - if the Assad regime does not comply.

has a big commitment. I have spent counterpart over the last week.

Russia has said, this is something you will have to do. We will work

with Russia and others very closely to check there is compliance will

this resolution. Given the progress that has been made, you must be

very glad that the British House of Commons stopped your rash to force

against Syria. -- rush. The reason has happened is because there was a

credible threat of military action. has happened is because there was a

credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it

through Congress. They have not President Obama did not get it

the vote in Congress. There is no other explanation as to why the

policy changed. It was because there was a debate about military

action in the West that the policy changed on theirs. That is why it

changed. We were not in a rush for military action. The boat put to

the House of Commons was to have inspectors reported. It was before

Russian and Syrian policy changed. We need to make sure that works

Russian and Syrian policy changed. Government having an interest in

mortgage lending. -- there is a fundamental problem. It should have

been set much lower to exclude London and the South East where

houses are dramatically overvalued. Many economists think freezing

energy prices is a terrible policy. These policies can be popular. If

you have no chance of getting a deposit, the Government will make

Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do

anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it

forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they

forward and there are signs it is doing this is they want to show

this week at the conference there are real sort of understandable

issues you can explain very simply that really up going to improve

people's lives. The Conservatives Miliband's speech last week. The

nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price

freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on

that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism

to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will

be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will

about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the

political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities

Labour Party. It is about borrowing against a party that stands for

Labour Party. It is about borrowing warming economic picture. That does

not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything

not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. --

not pay energy bills. Does not does not sound. They have had a

week to think about a great attack line and they do not add anything.

the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike

the credibility test. Ed Miliband energy prices, he would not be able

it is about credibility. Being seen as serious and grown-up is worth

it is about credibility. Being seen more than any burst of popularity.

with the election campaign, it My worry about the announcement

with the election campaign, it begins to lose credibility, begins

to seem a banana republic. It looks a lot less wise than it did last

week. I disagree. Every time energy bills go up and they will continue

to go up, it will be a reminder bills go up and they will continue

how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy

prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that

was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may

be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving

be making huge profit but, at the the cost of fuel is China and India.

Ed Miliband, great man that he is, I am not sure he can take on the

people Sammir on that one. How dare last week. Dogged by criticism

people Sammir on that one. How dare the summer of his leadership style

announcements, and attempted to the summer of his leadership style

announcements, and attempted to vested interests that hold back

announcements, and attempted to economy. In a speech in which he

jokingly referred to himself as economy. In a speech in which he

action hero, Mr Miliband promised to switch the forthcoming business

action hero, Mr Miliband promised tax cut from large firms to smaller

businesses. He said he would force big firms to train at an apprentice

every time they bring in a worker from outside the EU. He hinted that

increasing the minimum wage would be increased. He bowed to take on

developers with a use it or lose it threat to landowners and pledged to

build 200,000 homes each year by 2020. He promised to freeze energy

prices and reset the energy market. The next Labour government will

freeze gas and electricity prices provoked a rash of headlines -

hailing the return of red Ed macro. It has also given him a spike in

the polls. And Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline Flint

Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In

what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left

companies that dominate the energy generate energy, and sell it on

companies that dominate the energy Miliband recognised when he was

Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company

Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,

all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms

all the things we have done to Horsell market is too secretive

all the things we have done to it is too much about such supply.

all the things we have done to - the wholesale market. We have

resetting the market. It has got been raising with the Government in

resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which

prices have gone up. Labour put privatisation. We took some reforms

realised it was not working and privatisation. We took some reforms

was broken and we need to reset privatisation. We took some reforms

Ed Miliband will be the first to onwards. Let's have a look at what

happened to energy prices under onwards. Let's have a look at what

Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up

by 48%. The market was broken and we saw prices biking as wholesale

prices went up. The tick action we saw prices biking as wholesale

the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we

programme. Trying to do things around social obligations needs

programme. Trying to do things be looked at. Gas and electricity

presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look

at the breakdown of dual fuel - of Labour policy. Beds have a look

and electricity bill. -- let's have a look. The supply costs of getting

it to us and so on. The policies government - Green levies - are

energy bills. £112 on average bill of 1188. You have put the bill up.

obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.

Overwhelmingly, looking at your wholesale costs are worth more than

half. What we have seen, based on figures we now have, in Eni macro,

Do you have plans to do anything about the £112? If you took that

energy. It -- we stimulate. If we do not have clean energy, we will

be beholden for ever-more to fossil do not have clean energy, we will

fuels that are depleting. It will create jobs and bring in investment

will start in the last few years, investment. If I could go back to

whatever advance there are, looking at whether the money raised through

energy companies to deliver energy efficiency, is that doing as well

as it might? Could it be better delivered by another agency? They

are fair questions. We need to get market. Can we make the market will

competitive make sure when there is downward pressure on wholesale

prices, that is reflected on our bills? That is the bigger picture

As you complain about the energy prices, it was as a result of your

actions. Ed Miliband introduced prices, it was as a result of your

climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for

decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much

as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out

there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills,

there. It is important that we also recognise that if we are going

to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British

renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge

wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in

bills of 5%. Which are saying that fell in 2009, we got a reduction in

going up, but we haven't seen the amount of investment suggested by

Government to take out all carbon speech in Brighton that Labour

Government to take out all carbon from energy generation by 2030.

Government to take out all carbon is not that far away. By 2030, no

more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive

nuclear and much more expensive without bills going up even further?

Hang on a second. The 2030 target to remove carbon from the electricity

supply, we have said we should set a target now because, actually, it

gives us more time to plan ahead and also allows investment to come in.

There is plenty of people with cash in their pockets not want to invest

what they are stalling because of the Government's hesitancy over

this. I just want a clarification here. My understanding is that your

commitment is to get rid of all carbon from power generation by

2030? From the letters city supply. Only electricity. We will still

2030? From the letters city supply. gas? We have always said we will

need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be

increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding

twice the market price to build plans in this country. Renewables

are two or three times the market price. Bills are going up under

are two or three times the market policies? On nuclear, we took a

decision under the Labour Government that we needed to revitalise the

sector, to hit targets on clean that we needed to revitalise the

energy and make sure it can do the heavy lifting. The Government at the

discussions with EDF about what heavy lifting. The Government at the

important, because I don't know heavy lifting. The Government at the

it's going to be, it is important that stands up to scrutiny in terms

of value for money. At the same time, I go back to market reforms.

difference, the jargon for nuclear, We will not just have a target for

difference, the jargon for nuclear, we will have it for renewables as

well. That is even more important, that we can have a robust target

that we have a transparent market so that we can have a robust target

Cameron saying something needs to be price to be judged against. Michael

Cameron saying something needs to be done. I'm surprised David Cameron

doesn't acknowledge that. You are going to freeze prices for 20 months

regulator to replace Ofgem. Will that regulator have the power to

regulator to replace Ofgem. Will control prices? The new energy

wholesale costs and prices, which it moment. As a result of that it will

wholesale costs and prices, which it wholesale prices fall, it can force

the energy companies, if they don't, to pass on reductions in bills to

consumers. It will not have what we see in some parts of the European

Union, 15 of them, that have a variety of price controls that set

things at below inflation and what have you. France, Spain, Italy.

things at below inflation and what will not do that. Why? Because we

are looking at a temporary price freeze to reflect a reduction in

are looking at a temporary price British public respite from ever

reforms into the market. At the British public respite from ever

of this, what we want is a more competitive market that can be

trusted, that is more transparent. We do believe it is right that,

actually, we need a regulator that has much more of a role in making

effectively. Are you accusing energy companies of profiteering? EU I

effectively. Are you accusing energy accusing them of overcharging and

not passing on wholesale reduction costs to the customer in a fair

not passing on wholesale reduction Of making Carter -- cartel profits?

I do believe that the level of profits they have passed on to their

I do believe that the level of the reductions they could have

provided to consumers. Let's look at the evidence for that. Here are

provided to consumers. Let's look at British owned companies, SSE and

provided to consumers. Let's look at they made combined earnings of

provided to consumers. Let's look at work done by other organisations,

Witch and others, it shows that work done by other organisations,

Centrica's case they have something like 8% return in profit margins on

the retail side. That goes up to 24% on the generation side. They have

passed on, in terms of profits, something I70 4% through evidence to

shareholders. But these figures don't show that. They have invested

£3 billion. I am reporting what don't show that. They have invested

been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has They may well be, but we don't have

of not doing the job they should be of not doing the job they should be

doing, and they have held back from across the big six, something like

50% of profits has gone over to Centrica's case it is 74%. On the

Centrica example, even though they have had the highest profit margins,

they have invested the least. It is fair to question. We are running out

of time. None of us really know fair to question. We are running out

the true price of energy is that is crucial. That is because he merged

the market and we can't tell the difference. If they continue putting

prices up, even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in

prices up, even after your price way that they do, do you rule out

competitive market and that is why watching Sunday Politics. Coming up

in just over 20 minutes I will be looking at the week ahead with our

Shadow Attorney General, welcome. and Isa with Mary McLeod and the

Shadow Attorney General, welcome. strikes on the Underground should be

conference season reaches its final the ring to have a tilt at the

conference season reaches its final London mayoral team. Eddie is and

Tessa Jowell and Siddique Khan dropped heavy hints they will run

for City Hall in 2013. Who do you fancy? Tessa Jowell or Siddique

Khan? I think it will be much longer than that, the list. Who else? EU I

couldn't possibly say. You could. speculative at the London reception.

We had a list of ten. All kinds speculative at the London reception.

people. What would be interesting is if we are going to decide on having

candidates. What would you like if we are going to decide on having

see? They closed primary, Labour supporters to be involved in the

decision. What about an all-female short list? Tessa Jowell, that is

the first time a woman has suggested putting herself forward. And on

the first time a woman has suggested Oona King had a go. A lot of women,

I think, might be planning on going. think it will be interesting. The

problem with an open primary is think it will be interesting. The

cost. But I think the principle think it will be interesting. The

good one. You will have no money by Would you like to see Boris stand

again? I think he's been a great Mayor. A lot of people have come

standing. This is the greatest city in the world. It's an amazing job to

do. I really think that it is the independents. It's difficult for

them to stand, but some did well last year. I think it would be great

to have a long list of candidates. Who would you like to see come

mind would make a good Mayor? I Who would you like to see come

2020 vision and wants to deliver third. Is the weird thing that is

more likely to go for Mayor again if he thinks the Conservatives might

lose the next election, if he thinks they might win he's more likely

lose the next election, if he thinks go for... But he has to make a

decision in 2015. Maybe you have had these conversations with Boris,

decision in 2015. Maybe you have had haven't. I talked to him about

Heathrow expansion and stopping haven't. I talked to him about

third runway. But I would rather have him standing again. Labour

established the cost of living as established the cost of living as

one of the major battle lines in the next general election. In London,

rising house prices, soaring rent and the squeeze on wages has meant

that under this Government Londoners are spending a large amount of

housing. Earlier in the week I caught up with the Prime Minister

and began by asking him what he thought the proportion of income the

accommodation was in the capital. I it is a huge amount. Rent is very

housing and we have to deal with that. At the same time, we have

housing and we have to deal with deal with the fact there are lots of

people renting in London who would like to buy in London and over their

own home. That is what the Help like to buy in London and over their

Buy policy is about. Helping young people who can afford the mortgage

payments but can't get the mortgage but because the banking system is

stuck. The figure is 59%, you are right, it is extremely high. I don't

have a target in mind. It if we build more homes, which we should do

planning system, if we help young people get on the housing ladder and

own a home of their own, if we continue to make it easy for people

to rent houses, we should see a better situation. Let me add to

housing benefit. One of the things that has driven rent up in the past

has been housing benefit paying people's rent. London councils say

London needs 100,000 new homes each year until 2021 to get on top of the

shortages you have just described. year until 2021 to get on top of the

have been built each year. How are you going to increase that sixfold?

have been built each year. How are Reforming the planning system is

planning system, the parties have encourage house-builders to build.

planning system, the parties have Unlocking the mortgage market, which

planning system, the parties have immigration. You have seen net

migration under this Government immigration. You have seen net

by a third. We need to take further steps to make sure we don't put

unnecessary pressure on the housing system. Taking those measures into

account, it is still not going to be enough to build the sort of number

that is required to deal with what is now a housing crisis. Do you

that is required to deal with what in build and, -- Ed Miliband has

outflanked you on this? He won't control immigration, so you have

pressure building and building. control immigration, so you have

idea of confiscating land from developers will discourage people

from boarding houses. He has opposed reforms to the planning system and

Miliband had helped to put in place. The only way you will get more

houses is reforming the planning system, making sure builders can

houses is reforming the planning things were doing. One of the things

he says is that you just don't get top of your party, you live for

he says is that you just don't get at Number 10, you have a house in

don't understand what it is like. Would you accept that? I don't,

don't understand what it is like. a minute. Of course, it is a huge

I hold surgeries in my constituency where people see me every week and

talk about the pressures in terms of rent, being able to buy a home.

talk about the pressures in terms of the end, you should judge people not

background they have, judge them by Frankly, this Government is building

more homes, getting the housing market moving, helping people get on

the housing ladder, dealing with problems of immigration, reforming

welfare so it pays to work. There things government is doing. You

welfare so it pays to work. There see the economy turning the corner.

million net new private-sector jobs, see the economy turning the corner.

million net new private-sector jobs, many more small businesses set up,

election. 360,000 more young people need to stick to the programme.

permission is not owned by builders available land. There are lots of

things we need to do. Ed Miliband says he wants to build hundreds

things we need to do. Ed Miliband thousands of homes and we know he

needs it. He wants to build all those homes during the time of

Labour being in office. We want those homes during the time of

look at what needs to be changed in order to make sure those homes are

built. We're going to do it. Every government has said that. Labour

fell to build the houses it said it would build pop 13 years was that

for 13 years. First of all, the number of homes be built was not

enough. Many of us when lobbying. housing, housing. Many of us were

going on about this. In London we are desperate for more homes. It is

right he has come out and said he wants to. We did up all the social

housing in the entire country, which was a big achievement. We

housing in the entire country, going to do something about it.

housing in the entire country, have some radical policies and

we're going to do it. It is not about changing the planning policy.

It is about investing money. We need to have social housing for

rent. That is the only sort of affordable housing we can have. The

real key is letting Ed Miliband making developers build on land

building houses. They could also we're not going to do it at will. A

plot of land near the Angel which has been empty for 20 years, there

London, it is really difficult. has been empty for 20 years, there

am in West London. To rent or buy it is extremely difficult and we

need more homes. We need more. Absolutely! Do you think 16,000

homes a year in shame for? I think constituency in West London that I

have lots of development going on. I have some developers that have

not got planning permissions sorted. intervention. I tried to make sure

we can get things through and work with Hounslow council to make that

happen. We do need those homes. What is wrong with use it or lose

it? We also need homes that are affordable. There are five-bedroom

houses with a couple of garages which are not homes for nurses,

houses with a couple of garages homes for working people. They are

not affordable. I was looking at homes for working people. They are

how much it was to rent a three bedroom flat in Islington. When

how much it was to rent a three looked this week, it was four under

These were the cheapest ones we could find the stock -- £400. One

suggested we had the land value could find the stock -- £400. One

in order to stop people sitting could find the stock -- £400. One

land, having vacant properties or taking investment properties. Is

that not a good idea? We should Including use it or lose it? We

London his face was so big in terms of the city. We do have to say,

London his face was so big in terms to help me get a school. London

London his face was so big in terms to make sure our leaders understand.

One of the big tests for any Prime Minister at conference season is

for the coming year. In London, Minister at conference season is

for the coming year. In London, York subway have been illegal since

the 60s was that they happen but rarely. This action in 2005 was

only one of two cases in almost rarely. This action in 2005 was

years. The boss of the striking union was sent to jail and his

organisation find £2 million. The TW has decided their demands are

more important than the law. More important than the City and the

people they serve. The idea of a strike ban on the tube might be

gaining momentum. Earlier this year, Conservatives called for them to be

made illegal. They say, if unions have serious dispute with transport

buses, it should go to a third party to have it settled. There

should be binding arbitration. If a vote is taken, then the binding

arbitration should be done by a judge or a panel and that their

decision as a church, should be final. That is the point. -- 8

judge. This is gaining approval final. That is the point. -- 8

Parliament. I think the assembly Conservatives are leading the way

suggestion. I hope the Government I them now or after the election will

look at is to see if we can make this possible. -- either now for

I am not saying all strikes will be banned. I think essential public

services such as the fire brigade and similar public services, bear

and 80s which we should not be should not be strikes these days.

and 80s which we should not be tolerating in an economy which

needs people to get out to work a slippery slope no one wants to go

rescue things. The trade unions a slippery slope no one wants to go

taken industrial action to ensure station the public had mixed views.

Especially when you are looking after children, children rely on

the service. They think maybe it could be an option. I do not think

they should be made illegal. I have a right to protest against pay

rises, just like any other person. governing it and there should be a

police are not allowed to strike. Should the Conservatives win the

next election, could well be added to that list? When I spied the

Prime Minister, I asked him whether he would rule out banning strikes

on the Tube. I would not rule them out. It would be better if we could

get to a situation where there was disputes came up, rather than the

strikes me as seen in recent years. Seeing fewer strikes in our public

support. What about other parts Seeing fewer strikes in our public

the public sector? But take a look at firefighters. Should they be

banned from going on strike like the police? We have an opportunity

to look at all these things before the next election. What a majority

Conservative government would do. The Duke has been particularly

difficult in recent years. -- the tube. Mary kite you are one of the

MPs that did not respond to the survey. We do support a ban on the

tube strikes? -- would you support? Transport for London is essential

to have a city works and how the how the City works. We have about

11 million people going around London during the day, working in

recent potential strike colour less London, and they need to get to

recent potential strike colour less than 50% of people actually voted

recent potential strike colour less on it. For those who said they

recent potential strike colour less ban? Would you like to see it in

the manifesto? It is something we should think about putting in there

for us to have you may not support a ban on strikes. -- in there. I

think it's it's built in the mouths of Tory politicians in London to so

they should be banning strikes on the tube. -- it sits ill. That is

Boris's then you should have over 50% and that is a majority. --

Boris is saying. He promised he would work towards a no-strike

agreement with the Underground. would work towards a no-strike

he met the unions? He has not even met them. For them to turn around

they only have strikes when there is a failure in relationships. If

we had a man who will not even meet the Underground unions... We had

more strikes under Boris than Ken. That is due to an attitude problem.

Her what about the disruption? That is terrible. I'm not pretending

they are not a failure. When I happen it is terrible. People who

work on the tubes do not go on pay. Nobody wants to go on strike.

negotiate these things and talk through the problems. The Prime

Minister said it was something they would consider to look across the

public sector for firefighters. What you say to that? I think, for

public services that are absolutely Striking is a way of people voicing

arbitration way you can. We need Striking is a way of people voicing

over 50% of people voting for a Striking is a way of people voicing

where less than 50% come out and We need to engage with the public

vote, are those electors not valid? We need to engage with the public

let's get the public out. Now time for the rest of the political news

in 60 seconds. -- you are coming out with a... The cancer is said to

be unable to sell the old buildings and is considering moving back.

be unable to sell the old buildings the council. Some traffic wardens

in Camden and Ealing claim that forecasts in council contracts mean

they are put under pressure to issue more parking tickets. Ealing,

targets on the number of tickets and denied any wrongdoing. Two men

spitting in the streets. It was and denied any wrongdoing. Two men

successfully for spitting. Enfield council has said it will seek a

decision to close maternity and Accident and Emergency units at

Chase Farm Hospital. The labour followed by Accident and Emergency

Nobody likes spitting in the street, but would you fine people for doing

it? I would, actually. I think it is a disgusting habit. My local council

is looking at banning it, or fining for it. I am supportive of it. You

don't think it is Draconian? I think unhygienic, and absolutely they

should be fined. Don't you think it mightily to people being unfairly

prosecuted? You are looking forward to the idea that Hounslow Council

introduces it? I just think... I agree. It is right to say that this

is not acceptable and fining them is the right thing to do. What chilly

other habits that people have? the right thing to do. What chilly

other habits that people have? different, it doesn't affect anyone

other habits that people have? unpleasant for others. It shouldn't

just be about you. Do you think think they probably will, they will

take the lead and go for it. Thank you both for being my guests is

today. That is all we've got time for. My thanks again to Mary McLeod

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage conference initiatives? And what is

UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to with the Tories in Manchester?

On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,

let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not

looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice

at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We

at the general election. The British on the right track, we are seeing

more jobs, new businesses, we are beginning to get things moving

again. Do you want to stick with us, hard-working people, or do you want

to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want

and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime

there any appetite on the UKIP side discussions around the country,

there any appetite on the UKIP side would say no. It's being discussed,

is the media that is pushing this. would say no. It's being discussed,

is the media that is pushing this. trying to reclaim what I would call

position. I'm not sure what the Conservatives are trying to react to

the right, which the media wants to interpret as them possibly being

able to do some sort of pact with interpret as them possibly being

able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to

whatsoever. It is not on the radar. I have read comments, including

Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's

call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt

that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is

not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an

have responded to that by saying, the moment, there are no ongoing

discussions. There is certainly constituency level or coming out of

believe any constituencies are Eurosceptics? I am not privy to

believe any constituencies are all 360 constituencies might be

discussing. All I can do is give you the example of the few I have seen

and know it is not on the agenda. Without a pact, it is perfectly

possible that you could fail to Without a pact, it is perfectly

a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing

Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are

very clear marginals, just like a number of seats out there that are

Izzard was. I believe there could be an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

you take enough votes away from an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment

I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held

seat, even after that result, does example, a Liberal Democrat held

seat, even after that result, does to be focusing on Tory seats. We are

out there because people resonate to be focusing on Tory seats. We are

out there because people resonate with our message. For the Liberal

support any discussion on leaving with our message. For the Liberal

turn-off for voters. David Cameron with our message. For the Liberal

says there is not going to be a with our message. For the Liberal

or at a constituency level. But with our message. For the Liberal

seems clear to me that there will not be a national one. So, does

David Cameron have a UKIP strategy? The only encouraging thing for

UKIP's successful David Cameron that the moment that he would only

that their support is so enormous that the moment that he would only

really need to win back maybe a third or a quarter of its to make a

decisive difference to the Tory share of the vote in 2015. The

question becomes, how much of that UKIP support is up for grabs? A

question becomes, how much of that last week suggested that 47% of

current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing

Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against

recovery. So, plausibly, there is secondary question is, what does

David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will

referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration

policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until

the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice

Cameron, and that is what shifts a Cameron. We heard from William Hague

earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you

could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple

appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European

elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where

you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited

about that, I think that bounce be hard for people to get excited

fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a good ground game, that is difficult

for UKIP, that don't have that machinery sorted. How are they

for UKIP, that don't have that to fund that operation? But the

for UKIP, that don't have that fun, next year do you want me or Ed

for UKIP, that don't have that danger with David Cameron is saying,

of course, there is not going to be a pact, the danger is you will get a

repeat of the 1977 election. John Major said, famously, do not bind my

hands. A series of Conservative personally rule out membership of

the euro, when the Conservative membership was wait and see. That

looked like a Prime Minister not in charge of his party. The danger

looked like a Prime Minister not in Let's assume you do really well

looked like a Prime Minister not in the European actions and there is a

widespread expectation that you will, even in Downing Street. They

might be managing expectations. will, even in Downing Street. They

stops you fading away as the general election approaches? A number of

reasons. As has been mentioned, election approaches? A number of

whole issue of the referendum pledge has been proved to be an absolute

nonsense. It is so contingent on if I am re-elected, if it's not a

coalition government, is, if, if. That was fooled nobody. The issue of

where voters are coming from, it is because they have lost faith in

where voters are coming from, it is David Cameron says. There is nothing

he is going to say that is convince think that is my view and the view

of a lot of UKIP. I am told that they have expunged Nigel Farage

of a lot of UKIP. I am told that the fringes? It is a great scoop, on

the front page. They are outside the ring of steel. Even so, they won't

programme, so they must be worried about something. His people have

paid money for adverts in the Tory about something. His people have

paid money for adverts in the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

out. Speaking of people the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

leadership is worried about, Boris Johnson, are we in any doubt as

leadership is worried about, Boris interview that he is now beginning

his long march back to Parliament? interview that he is now beginning

his long march back to Parliament? He does express feeling slightly sad

during the Syria debate that he He does express feeling slightly sad

not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do

not there, on the political front see why it is in his interest is to

The interesting thing is him saying he will move before, I think he

The interesting thing is him saying that people have seven years before

the electorate get bored of them. He might be cresting that. He doesn't

want to be Prime Minister, he is much more ambitious than that. He

wants to be an emperor. He was asked, which Roman emperor would you

like to be compared to? You said, important. I don't think you are

thinking big enough. See what I important. I don't think you are

to put up with, every Sunday? By virtue of being born in the US,

to put up with, every Sunday? By could be president. Unlike Arnold

Schwarzenegger. How about a deal with Boris? He has made no secret,

after Eastleigh, that he would be open to a discussion. Let's call it

no more than a discussion. He has been adamant, however, he does not

see any reason, any justification or any opportunity where he would be

able to have that discourse with any opportunity where he would be

David Cameron. Maybe it comes down to that on both sides. I've no idea.

We know that the Tories will be to that on both sides. I've no idea.

more Eurosceptic after the next election? I can't imagine David

Cameron's successor will be somebody that supports EU membership in

ideological direction of the party. The leadership contest will be about

this is a great deal for Britain membership, are you going to say

this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has

turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,

turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader

a good conference for David Cameron eye-catching announcement related to

a good conference for David Cameron living standards. May be a clearer

a good conference for David Cameron certainly help, that fightback has

should be looking out for are not been rubbish so far. The thing we

should be looking out for are not ones about the end of October, when

then we will see what happens. In a everything gets to settle down and

then we will see what happens. In a he doing, other than mischief? I

could almost say revenge. Revenge on Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord

Ashcroft was there at the Labour conference. You call it mischief,

but there is every reason why he should be there. We all call it

mischief. Thanks for being with should be there. We all call it

Join me on Daily Politics for live coverage of the Conservative Party

conference tomorrow morning from 11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring

conference tomorrow morning from George Osborne's speech live and

uninterrupted. I'll be back next weekend when guests will include

former Conservative Chancellor Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it

former Conservative Chancellor Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.