06/10/2013 Sunday Politics London

Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU

election? We talk to the Tory rebel demanding one next year, that is our

top story. As government ministers prepare to decide how the press

should be regulated, what will be You are talking about the colour of

peoples faces?! We will hear from In London, dozens of police stations

He will try to force a vote in the go under the hammer, City Hall says

He will try to force a vote in the October. Home Secretary Theresa

He will try to force a vote in the was asked about his plans on the BBC

earlier this morning. I think he has was asked about his plans on the BBC

earlier this morning. I think he has got it wrong, I think what we need

to do is to negotiate the settlement with the European Union and then put

that to the people me to decide whether to be in or out. Is this a

flea bite or a real threat? I think the next election, a Conservative

Party that will be offering people that renegotiation, a new settlement

with Europe, looking to the future and putting that to the British

people in and in or out referendum. And what the amendment possibly

could do, as James Wharton, who And what the amendment possibly

putting the Referendum Bill through Parliament has said, is it could

jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie joins us now from Millbank studio.

Good morning. If the referendum would be held next October, it would

have to be an in-out question based the status quo? There wouldn't be

time for a full renegotiation. I disagree. By having a referendum in

2014, it gives us 12 months to renegotiate, but it kick-started

negotiations, because the European Union, if they wish us to remain

and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate

and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,

strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time

for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has

not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our

timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I

think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I

a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need

certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for

ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for

conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is

essential that Parliament and MPs want to cause trouble, but it is

essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their

souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That

would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I

said, it strengthens the Prime clarity for the future, and like I

You right in the Mail on Sunday clarity for the future, and like I

the people are not convinced there clarity for the future, and like I

there are too many uncertainties the headline was not the headline I

there are too many uncertainties Conservatives will win the election,

there are too many uncertainties I hope we will, they may not be

convinced the renegotiation will be good enough, that there will be

convinced the renegotiation will be referendum. Do you trust David

That is why we need to bring the referendum forward, there is time to

negotiate, and we tidy up the issue that has been hanging around for too

long. Do you trust David Cameron to deliver a referendum in 2017? I

Minister, and of course I trust deliver a referendum in 2017? I

referendum? There as only variables in between. What I am doing with

referendum? There as only variables this amendment, is to try to be

referendum? There as only variables is that Parliament and every MP

referendum? There as only variables the opportunity decide whether they

want to be sure of a referendum within this parliament, or maybe

leave it to the vagaries of what may within this parliament, or maybe

happen in 2015. Supposing you got your way, how would you vote? Like

Michael Gove, I would vote for us to leave as of today, but there will be

Michael Gove, I would vote for us to an enormous amount of pressure on

European Union leaders to come forward with proposals. If they

European Union leaders to come to say, the mandate is not ever

closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us

more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us

our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to

happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in

negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in

people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It

certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five

weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,

motions coming forward, and I know is your motion! There will be other

motions coming forward, and I know cross-party, for people who want the

British public to have a say in 2014. You know it is not going to

successes, apparently, of your this from happening. One of the

successes, apparently, of your settled. Here you are bringing it

successes, apparently, of your with my conscience as to whether or

not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or

British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with

it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for

each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and

decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the

headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this

opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this

say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a

say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle

with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the

panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with

him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with

that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most

prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if

you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in

charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.

They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill

is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.

It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the

next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that

all the future government would theoretically impossible and that

is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that

Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that

nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David

Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed dangerous. The problem for David

Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to

significant number of Labour MPs do Conservative backbenchers, and

significant number of Labour MPs do that war you might well find that

membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able

to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could

not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could

a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is

has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some

pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were

going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of

the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to

hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an

operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,

operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign

is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy

under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am

pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton

is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton

bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main

episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David

Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope

Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is

in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do

you want to buy a house? Can you not the 20% or 30% deposit the

mortgage provider is demanding from you? The Government says it has

mortgage provider is demanding from scheme designed for you which is in

launching next week, help to buy, scheme designed for you which is in

launching next week, help to buy, remember them?! But is the policy

launching next week, help to buy, Never mind who lives in a house

launching next week, help to buy, this, who can afford to buy a house

these days? The Government would this, who can afford to buy a house

the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to

the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two

been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.

Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this

scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a

value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to

Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up

to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up

time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first

losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first

future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if

you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the

5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating

banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot

get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in

our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford

the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So

Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the

housing market. 2.3 million? I do people who own their houses. Plus

housing market. 2.3 million? I do But enter a would-be buyer, will

they now be seeing a plethora of help to buy mortgages? In a word,

no. David Cameron has brought the months, and banks were not ready at

that stage. Two banks have committed to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group

and the RBS group, so lenders like Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will

be doing the scheme, but even once the scheme is up and running you are

probably find 95% mortgages on the high street because of the guarantee

the government is offering. People might say this is how we got into a

mess in the first place. Why would the government want to make those

products available then now? It the government want to make those

more what investment banks were doing in the background that caused

performed extremely well through the depths of the downturn. Is this

performed extremely well through the game changer? Yes, I have done my

best to save over the last few years but this has enabled me to make

best to save over the last few years first purchase. How frustrating

best to save over the last few years it just renting? Very frustrating,

you are throwing away money hand over fist, and now I can take that

enthusiasm raises a question back at the flat. If you are looking for a

95% mortgage, you don't really care economy, you are thinking, great, I

house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term

economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull

off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the

grateful for the opportunity to their own homes that they reward the

Now Conservative MP Margot James, to sidestep consequences that such a

Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City

It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.

Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in

London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it

will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even

more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in

tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.

What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on

average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on

property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they

cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people

to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will

cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any

have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record

have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not

new supply is coming up. It is the statistics I have seen, but

new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see

enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution

to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes

and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the

own rules and is trying to create these subsidies to circumvent the

rules it has put in place. It is not a subsidy. Don't forget banks have

to pay a charge in order to take part in this loan scheme and that

the... You are guaranteeing the money. Yes, but the fear is worked

out on a commercial basis. The taxpayer is protected. Why? You

out on a commercial basis. The guaranteeing £12 billion worth of

mortgages per year. Yes but the change in the whole mortgage basis

has been made a few years ago in response of the crash. They made the

distressed test on people applying for mortgages much higher and you

twice... So it will not be like these self certification mortgages

handed out in America that caused the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit

like that but the banks are rightly asking for bigger deposits, they

know there is a big chance house prices could fall if interest rates

eventually, so they are demanding bigger deposits. The Government

eventually, so they are demanding circumventing this is being passed

eventually, so they are demanding on to the taxpayers which is why it

is a dangerous policy. Instead they should be massively accelerating

Planning permission is much easier to get now, we have seen a 49%

increase in planning permission to get now, we have seen a 49%

a new building over the last year, a huge increase. In the figures I

a new building over the last year, a recently, they showed new start

a new building over the last year, a the 12 months to the autumn were

only about 110,000 which is the figure you inherited, which was

only about 110,000 which is the other policies the Government put

into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I

advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron

says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They

don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on

the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable

housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like

in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes

were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people

could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%

mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go

struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced

with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.

95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.

repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?

They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are

already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are

lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into

this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are

this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should

limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape

limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the

Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father

picture of his father's gravestone claiming that Ed Miliband's Father

picture of his father's gravestone They then removed the photo and

picture of his father's gravestone Ed Miliband the right to reply on

printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It

printed an editorial alongside it reporter had gate-crashed a private

memorial service for Ed Miliband's uncle in a London hospital, for

which the paper has now apologised, but Ed Miliband has called on the

hard look at the way his papers but Ed Miliband has called on the

run. This comes a week before a but Ed Miliband has called on the

Joining us now from Hull, John Prescott. Does this row between

Joining us now from Hull, John reinforce the case for tough, new

certainly influences the opinion about that but that is more of Paul

Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang about that but that is more of Paul

while I was in Strasbourg making sure my complaints were nothing

while I was in Strasbourg making do with press regulation and he

while I was in Strasbourg making right. This argument is not about

politicians and media people, it is about ordinary people that love

politicians and media people, it is and dealt with. All of these cases

affected individual people and they are the ones that need to have

justice in this matter. Next week we will be hearing whether the Privy

Council will be reporting on the proposal to replace it. Are you

agreeing then that what the mail did with its Miliband article was a

matter of judgement? Yes, and the with its Miliband article was a

politicians should be governed, with its Miliband article was a

proposal given by half the press with its Miliband article was a

Prime Minister said he supported. with its Miliband article was a

You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through

the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled

son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about

Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about

couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are

editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the

judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the

old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject

old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until

you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near

the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have

been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is

fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.

As you said, you have the same position when they go through your

rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime

Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action

of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the

frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go

Government set up in charge at frankly, but we have agreed to go

same time rushed through the press have now said they are going to

introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not

introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair

Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair

are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for

this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to

account. When Ed Miliband rang me it regulation, he wanted the argument

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband regulation, he wanted the argument

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband after Paul Dacre's head? No, he

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband stay there. It is like with Murdoch,

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband we were not attacking him but what

extent, what they are doing about politicians who can look after

themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they

might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well

destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre

got good judgment? I would say no, Thank you for joining us, he did not

even have to go to the BBC studios, we sent a truck there for him. What

is the endgame in this? Whether we sent a truck there for him. What

Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,

the criminal trial involving Andy Coulson coming up, the Privy Council

discussing press radiation before question is, what is political

those who do care believe that all parties are roughly complicit in

being too close to editors and smile. Is the Daily Mail also a

Labour mole? This has been a dream for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch,

I am taking on the energy companies and now the evil Daily Mail! I

think... I should say I used to and now the evil Daily Mail! I

for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they

surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done

surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this

position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think

the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.

If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do

this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the

media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a

dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David

Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some

common ground between the three so-called press industry version.

What the Daily Mail has done is ensured that the Prime Minister

What the Daily Mail has done is What is going to happen this week is

that the press Royal Charter has to be considered first, and that will

probably be rejected. The Privy Council will reject it. Then the

three party Royal Charter will come up, but meanwhile the press will set

up their own regulatory body because the Royal Charter is not a proper

statutory underpinning, they will be able to go ahead with that. There

statutory underpinning, they will be will be the legal basis for the

resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the

profession and a few media watchers. cares about this outside of the

But this has been great politics for people are cynical about it. But the

all those vested interests are people are cynical about it. But the

about who he has stood up for, and left-wing politician to want to

about who he has stood up for, and as a Marxist, now they think of

about who he has stood up for, and as war hero. He gets to the crux of

matters, you know! You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in

just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking to Godfrey Bloom, until

then the Sunday Politics across Hello and welcome from us. I am

minutes or so by Conservative MP Bob Stuart and Seema Malhotra, Labour MP

for Feltham and Heston. A little later we will be looking at this,

dozens of police stations going later we will be looking at this,

under the hammer, city or says they are underused and therefore costing

money, so what will it mean for are underused and therefore costing

neighbourhood policing? But I want to get off with the question that

dominated at least part of the earlier this week, Boris Johnson's

career plans. Could he come back into Parliament? Should he come

career plans. Could he come back into Parliament before he has served

Stewart. I would thought you cannot do two jobs well, so probably not.

But I understand it is possible do two jobs well, so probably not.

do that. I do not think it will happen. Why are we talking about

that? Because you guys like talking about it! The inevitable thing is,

who is going to be the leader of the Conservative Party in the distant

future? Well, you know what? We don't know. All the names that are

being toted around at the moment, I suspect it might not be any of them.

difficult because one job is enough, electorate, do you think it will be

difficult because one job is enough, should he do it? The mayor of London

is a big job and a good job, but I understand it may be possible to do

both. I don't know, I'm not Boris, I understand it may be possible to do

both. I don't know, I'm not Boris, I don't know what he thinks. As far as

both. I don't know, I'm not Boris, I for the Commons. But not before

both. I don't know, I'm not Boris, I a pretty big job, and I don't like

councillors. I think, for goodness sake, make a choice, either an MP or

a local councillor or a member of the European Union or the Northern

a local councillor or a member of Ireland Assembly. One job is enough

for any man, it certainly is for me! Ireland Assembly. One job is enough

for any man, it certainly is for me! Perhaps there are people who are

better than me, I am sure there Perhaps there are people who are

I think it raises a real question did not talk about the cost of

living in his beach, issues that Londoners are placing, rising energy

living in his beach, issues that bills, rising travel costs. Probably

living in his beach, issues that not surprising he did not talk about

London MP, what difference would it make question much he would be doing

the same job. For zones one to six, affairs, prices have gone up for a

travel card, £440. He could deal with that as an MP. He is the one

making decisions, he is in charge of so many things, the extent of police

cuts, he has got to be... That would not happen under Labour! He has

cuts, he has got to be... That would commitment is, and he has to be

doing the job of mayor of London. I would be very surprised if Londoners

were at all happy about him running for two jobs, trying to get two

struggling with their basic bills, getting work, young people trying to

find work, and getting to and from between you, one job is enough,

find work, and getting to and from I am sure we will be returning to

this question at some stage. Let's move on, because in January City

Hall announced they were selling as including stations, across the

so-called contact points, such as police counters in supermarkets

so-called contact points, such as libraries. Dozens of former stations

so-called contact points, such as are now on the market. So where

so-called contact points, such as you know go to report a crime will

sector bash -- satisfaction, while doing it with 20% less money. It is

sector bash -- satisfaction, while called P20-20-20 vision, and while

that might sound like popular vote winners, in achieving the may prove

properties, just the start of the buildings across the capital. City

Hall thought that many stations buildings across the capital. City

underused and offered poor value. In September, each police borough has

had just one police station open according to Labour, the replacement

provision is poor. Half of the police stations have closed down,

and the Mets say they are replacing those with contact points, which may

and the Mets say they are replacing buildings, but they are only open

for two or three hours every week, buildings, but they are only open

substitute. We found that actually residents are stating that they

substitute. We found that actually not know what the opening of ours

are, there has been inadequate residents told me that our local

contact point in a supermarket consists of two coppers with two

Jess and home-made laminated signs. Not enough thought has been given to

this. There are claims the process has been badly managed. Streatham

police station was put on the market this week and advertised with estate

agents. Then they realised it was fully operational and had to dig

down. Human error was blamed. But if Londoners are convinced that Boris

Johnson has overseen a fall in may well be that they become more

satisfied with their police service Stephen Greenhalgh, the Deputy Mayor

for policing, joins me now. Touching about? Is there so little going

for policing, joins me now. Touching that the mistake was made? There has

buildings, but not for the police been an administrative mistake,

buildings, but not for the police stations in London. We are talking

being receptionists, we can put stations in London. We are talking

extra officers into neighbourhoods to fight crime. We will look at

those numbers in a minute, but how many police stations have been sold?

I think one. We are marketing around 29, 27, I think, so there are big

areas where we are going to get capital receipts. We are looking at

a training facility in Hendon, and the headquarters in Scotland Yard

will be sold. These generate real receipts. Is this to realise the

maximum receipts? Some argue these community use, not necessarily just

reaching value for you. Affordable housing,. Is. We have and vicious

part of that is by selling buildings that Opera will use. -- we have

part of that is by selling buildings ambitious programme. We want to

generate value to invest. Wide not to rent these things out? -- why

not? We want coppers armed with technology to help them fight crime.

So we need to spend the money to bring that about. That is going

So we need to spend the money to require a significant amount of

investment. So since September, require a significant amount of

closed, but they have been replaced by 115. Each borough has... We have

over delivered on those contact points. Every borough has got them

running now? Every borough has a 24/7 police station, and they have

all got several contact points. So where are they, supermarkets? They

all got several contact points. So are all over the place, working

all got several contact points. So local politicians, the local council

supermarkets, libraries, hospitals post office. And you are saying

supermarkets, libraries, hospitals as it see the expectations. We have

we would have. I think we saw an supermarket, not the ideal place

we would have. I think we saw an are a victim of crime, that is the

sensitively. These are not places to are a victim of crime, that is the

report some crime types, but it are a victim of crime, that is the

very important that the first public service in London has contact with

the public, and it is about ensuring that you have those links, you can

go to the places where the public supermarkets, libraries. Seema

Malhotra, is it working OK where you are? There are concerns about the

sensitive crimes, and what is more important is to say, actually, are

the police also still in the front line. We do know there have been

3000 police officers cut in London, and 1500 of those have been on the

frontline. PCSOs are being cut, and 1500 of those have been on the

that neighbourhood policing team, maintaining officers, we are seen

that go down from six in a ward maintaining officers, we are seen

to two, and I think that is going to have a really dramatic affect on the

relationship between police and communities, and it is not going to

be a positive impact. Bob Stewart, Beckenham? Are you going to tell me

there is a incredible increase in the number of uniformed officers? I

because the people are seen by the supermarkets, so they see that.

because the people are seen by the you say, look, the police will come

and take you away and go through the proper procedures. He will not do it

between counter number six and count on seven in Tesco, it will be done

somewhere else. Actually, all I on seven in Tesco, it will be done

concerned about is getting more policemen on the streets to answer,

concerned about is getting more and that is what people want. Is

that what people are telling you locally? People are not saying that,

yet to see the changes, because locally? People are not saying that,

the beat, rather than two, and locally? People are not saying that,

important to be clear about the numbers. We had 530 officers in

Hounslow when Boris came in in numbers. We had 530 officers in

that went down to 472, now we are talking about it going back up.

that went down to 472, now we are is not smoke and mirrors. You have

got to get rid of the middle rank officers and sell these buildings,

haven't you? Many officers were nowhere near the front line and

haven't you? Many officers were have already doubled the number

haven't you? Many officers were neighbourhood officers. You are

doubling them on a number that had been depleted. No, like-for-like. We

are putting thousands of extra officers into neighbourhoods. The

choices we have made, these are officers into neighbourhoods. The

choices, we need fewer buildings. Is there anything that has proved more

problematic than you thought it make it sound so easy, we will sell

these buildings. Nothing is easy but crime in London is coming down

historically. Not in all London boroughs. Crime is down by 8% across

London and overall crime down by ten or 11%. We have got to recognise

London and overall crime down by ten crime is coming down to levels we

officers are now in neighbourhoods. further, but that is good news.

officers are now in neighbourhoods. We are still short of the targets of

the target for 2015. Is it true We are still short of the targets of

across the rest of the country. It across the rest of the country. It

is broadly flat, we have got to buyers but there are increasing

concerns that a considerable share of that investment is a result of

foreign criminals wanting to launder their money. Are you a foreign drug

somewhere safe? Looking to squirrel millions? Lots of others just like

you have found the perfect way to launder their dirty money, hiding it

in expensive London property. It is such a phenomenon that last year the

head of the serious fraud office was reported as saying he hears the

head of the serious fraud office was complaint time and time again.

A former Met police fraud squad officers said while London property

is so appealing... There is a lot of significant opportunities for people

to buy high-value property and it is somebody to come along and say,

to buy high-value property and it is property, secure in the knowledge

that when I wanted I can get access to that money quickly, speedily

that when I wanted I can get access most importantly secretly. This

north London house was once the most importantly secretly. This

of Colonel Gaddafi, paid for with money stolen from the Libyan people.

protesters demanding the money should be returned, which it has

been, but the money was not bought by the Qaddafi family name but an

because of special circumstances here that the ownership came to

light. As such, nobody can say how much dirty money is swilling around

time we have people coming in with the property market as it is thought

time we have people coming in with clearly property price inflation

time we have people coming in with going on. Again, it comes back to

questions does the Government wants ask, don't tell environment, then it

seems to me those house prices will continue to rise. Estate agents

seems to me those house prices will under obligation to run checks on

according to some, that is far from enough. Private eye magazine has

reported extensively and campaign for more transparency. Asking people

in estate agents who have lots of other things to think about to take

laundering is wishful thinking in the extreme. We have seen what

passing the responsibility onto the extreme. We have seen what

responsible for 20 years now and have just not done it. What we need

what. There is much discussion about what. There is much discussion about

how to make property in London more affordable for ordinary people.

Could one way be a crackdown on this? Should there be a crackdown,

or more to the point how do you tremendously concerning and there is

a big question to be asked about to what extent this is a problem. There

may be a greater role for estate agents, for the land Registry to do

further checks, for HMRC to be greater vigilance about this. It

could have an impact on London. greater vigilance about this. It

is not just about houses, it is about communities, who is living in

London and how they are part of that? Absolutely. When a huge amount

community. Bob, do use ascribed that? Absolutely. When a huge amount

of money suddenly comes into London, surely the banks ask where this

all the time. Where has it come surely the banks ask where this

responsibility for actually checking through a bank and the bank has

responsibility for actually checking it has not been laundered. What

responsibility for actually checking can estate agents do? Perhaps not in

isolation, but can there be greater checks on not just the company

behind buying a house, if that is what it is, who are the individuals

behind that? And the important question as well is what is the

Londoners? They are only laundering the money in this way because it is

such an acceptable thing to do and there are so many foreign people

buying property. Is there anything you would like to see to intervene

in this market? Whenever you buy a house, lawyers are involved both

ways. When you buy a house, HMRC in some way is involved. When you buy a

house, estate agents are involved. When I moved into my constituency

when I was elected, all of those sorts of things came into play and I

someone, and we can make it plain, when a house is bought in London,

where the money comes from should be quite plain to HMRC and therefore it

should be clean money. Now it is time for the rest of the political

investigation into its handling time for the rest of the political

the pleb row... Boris Johnson told companies should be allowed to make

and Redbridge are close behind. Patrick McLoughlin used his speech

and Redbridge are close behind. People from the Afro-Caribbean and

South Asian communities are most at risk. Would you get rid of stamp

duty? I hate stamp duty. It is almost criminal robbery when people

have spent this and they have to put up extra money on their mortgage to

pay for it. It will raise -- they could raise the threshold. Would you

like Labour to look at stamp duty? You have always got to look at ways

fairness for the individual. There are different ways in which we can

potentially be looking at things but it is not a question we have been

talking about. We have been looking at the cost of living. That imposes

on the cost of living. When you at the cost of living. That imposes

trying to encourage people to buy houses, it imposes. Then you are

really in danger of expanding the bubble, aren't you? I also want

really in danger of expanding the children to be able to buy a house.

We are getting into a discussion of more affordable homes needed, but we

have no time. Andrew, back to you. Our next guest is no stranger to

controversy, a former UKIP MEP he recently lost his party's whip after

a series of outbursts including receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land'

and joking that a group of UKIP receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land'

and joking that a group of UKIP fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits

and joking that a group of UKIP Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly

be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails

within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the

within 12 hours, only 47 were not that is out of touch. Everybody

knows me, a bit like the Marmite joke, they love me or they hate

knows me, a bit like the Marmite but I have always told me like it

is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the

French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you

I have had hundreds of e-mails, a joke any more? I am long in the

correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing

well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are

picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are

their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is

disgrace me. We are joined now with a suitable distance between us by

the independent MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

said this weekend that you have and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I

am just an ordinary bloke from the politics, are you a sociopath? No, I

rugby club likes to tell it as it is. I did not come into politics to

rugby club likes to tell it as it save my country from the clutches of

the awful, evil... That is why I save my country from the clutches of

conference? We were both born in save my country from the clutches of

and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my

country and intent to do the best I independent for my country, and

country and intent to do the best I re-elected. They are the only game

in town, the only party that will get as out. Shouldn't you have been

liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of

perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a

one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe

meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything

Andrew. It tells you about your journalism - it is not about UKIP or

me, it was the journalists' reaction to a small joke at a meeting. And

myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable

force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has

been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June

and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement

about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote

getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you

what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip

friends amongst the liberal elite, of that. We are not here to win

friends amongst the liberal elite, and Godfrey's problem was that he

manifesto. Don't you need to reflect about flat tax. I thought David

Well, you see, to a certain extent I about flat tax. I thought David

Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in gagged to speak about any of these

things because they are not part of it, so I tend to speak about other

things. Maybe they have outgrown machine, and they have to get rid of

the Victor Meldrew wing. You might have a point, but I am speaking

the Victor Meldrew wing. You might you from Hull, and if you look at

Barnsley, and very recently in Scarborough and Whitby in the buy

legends, 25%, so how you see things in the bubble, it is not like how we

see it appear in Yorkshire. You in the bubble, it is not like how we

like the one who was sitting in in the bubble, it is not like how we

bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of course it isn't, we are getting

bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of of the vote in by-elections, of

course it is not. Boy, wouldn't of the vote in by-elections, of

main parties and the establishment love to see that! But I am sorry, it

is not happening. Will you stand as an independence against UKIP in

is not happening. Will you stand as European elections? Almost certainly

elections were next week, I could do not think I will go that route.

Will you stand as a UKIP candidate again? We do not know, probably

Will you stand as a UKIP candidate but I shall certainly be trying

Will you stand as a UKIP candidate help UKIP as best I can. You both

share a flat, I understand, in Brussels, neither of you clean

behind the fridge. Other than the fact that the place is probably

quite murky, you have got a chance to talk to each other and get back

into his good graces, haven't you? I am sure we will be having a beer

before the month is out. So Godfrey take it? For those of you who were

have to move my own share, you do skirmishes are not a problem, and

not have the sea Jeremy Paxman skirmishes are not a problem, and

more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even

juxtaposition with someone like in that clip from Andrew Marr, he

juxtaposition with someone like before. I mean, he did hijacked

juxtaposition with someone like conference, it was a disaster, they

got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they

kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist

long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his

website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he

photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does

photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin

was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It

sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be

sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP

sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the

European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is

right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what

this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to

electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as

electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the

three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the

probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.

The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making

The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and

councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need

Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need

David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.

David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women

among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?

He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?

week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way

businesses in Britain, there are not in Britain, there aren't nearly

businesses in Britain, there are not there is a lot further to go. Before

the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before

women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before

have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before

big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we

need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in

need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing

need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than

need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she

need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime

need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I

think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I

will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to

will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin

college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,

but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult

brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger

roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger

told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary

level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot

James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.

What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important

intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George

Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls

you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this

promote women, because the 2010 now, a tonne of bricks will fall

promote women, because the 2010 the Tories and the struggle with

women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember

Conservative government without historic one. You have to remember

women of this country. This began to change in the mid-1990s, and the

question is, why has that happened? personalities at the top are now

much more hostile to women, or less, personalities at the top are now

Brent doubled to female voters? personalities at the top are now

is such a deep historical trend personalities at the top are now

I do not think one reshuffle will change it. -- or less competent

civil. The English party conference season is over, do you share the

consensus view that Ed Miliband season is over, do you share the

out best of the three party leaders? I think I probably do, but his

overall approval ratings are still minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus

ten. And the more the recovery seems minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus

to take place, and some of the latest figures are quite amazing,

they certainly surprised me, you wonder whether Labour's tactic is

right to put all their eggs into the living standards basket. I was

looking at car sales, which are booming. If people start to feel

better, and they don't yet, but booming. If people start to feel

they were, it is tougher to go on about living standards. George

Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband making a great thing about living

standards, but then they say under their breath, this is global forces,

outstripping wage increases. And you're absolutely right, as the

economy improves, presumably that will be dealt with, but Miliband's

argument will be that there are people suffering, and even if the

economy recovers, they will still forces, it is difficult to blame the

noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition

being noticed now. It seems that he than to be not noticed. -- but he is

being noticed now. It seems that he in many ways has set the political

Obama's speech on a similar topic, in many ways has set the political

Obama's speech on a similar topic, far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would

be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their

conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they

could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it

generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I

generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.

What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the

one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,

they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you

they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework

that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones

after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also

pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go

ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will

ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,

and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.