23/04/2017 Sunday Politics London

It's Sunday afternoon - this is the Sunday Politics.

Jeremy Corbyn wants to give everyone in Britain four

extra bank holidays - but is the Labour leader up

to being Prime Minister if he wins the election in just

Theresa May says she wants a stronger hand to deliver Brexit -

how will the Conservatives go about getting the bigger

I'll be asking Party Chairman, Patrick McLoughlin.

And I've been in Paris where voters are going to the polls in first

round of the French Presidential election - what could be the impact

on the EU and Brexit of this most unpredictable of contests?

Will the Remain majority punish the Tories for the decision?

Or feel they may not like it but the Tories

And with me has always ready for the marathon task of covering a snap

general election, even working on bank holidays, the best and

brightest political panel in the business. David Wooding, Polly

Toynbee and Toby Young. So Labour's big announcement this

morning was a crowd pleaser. Four more rainy bank

holidays to enjoy - one for each of the patron saints

of England, Scotland, But Mr Corbyn probably won't be

getting the time off work if he wins And on The Andrew Marr Show this

morning he was asked what he would do as Prime Minister

if the security services asked him to authorise a drone strike

on the leader of Islamic State. What I'd tell them is,

give me the information you've got, tell me how accurate that is,

tell me what you I'm asking you about decisions you

would take as Prime Minister. Can I take you back

to the whole point? Is the objective

to start more strikes that may kill many innocent

people, as has happened? Do you think killing

the leader of Isis would be I think the leader of Isis not

being around would be helpful, and I'm no supporter or defender

in any way of Isis. But I would also argue that

the bombing campaign has killed a of whom were virtually prisoners of

Isis. So you've got to think

about these things. Mr Corbyn earlier. David, is his

reply refreshing damaging? It is damaging. He has clearly been

freaked to the fire already in the first week, there will be lots of

questions on his suitability as a leader and the damage it could cause

to our national security over the weeks ahead and Andrew Marr has cut

straight to the chase here. The other thing, of course, is the

letters of last resort, one of the first duties of a Prime Minister

when he walks into No 10 is to sign these letters on his own, on or --

or on her own in a room, a very lonely moment, to decide whether he

should press the nuclear button and that goes in the Vanguard submarines

and is opened in the event of a strike and he has dodged a question

so many times. One must wonder what he would do that. He has to make

these decisions as Prime Minister. On the Isis point, refreshing or

damaging? It sure is his base, the people who support him, that's the

sort of thing they support info and maybe his tactic is that's all he's

going to get, that is what the polls seem to suggest, in which case they

will be pleased, and say yes, the man is a man for these who doesn't

press buttons and shoot people down. But if you want to win you have to

deal with your own weaknesses and reach out to other people. I think

most people would say that's not somebody who could defend the

country. I wonder if he was being totally honest in saying he would

consider it he would ask for more information. He has previously been

on the record as being against drone strikes in principle, he's

campaigned against them, he wants to abolish drones. I think Andrew Marr

let him off saying it was a drone strike rather than a Navy SEAL or

SAS operation and he had the fact that they could be collateral

damage. We that's not his position because he condemned the

assassination of Osama Bin Laden even though there was no collateral

damage. David is right on the Trident point, he fetched the

question. We heard Niall Griffiths on this very show saying Trident,

the renewal of Trident, would be in the next Labour Party manifesto. It

turns out now we don't know and when he was asked he said that remains to

be seen, his re-opened a can of worms. What he has said about

Trident which was extraordinary was, we will rebuild the submarines but

not have any nukes on them which is expensive and useless. And of course

the Labour Party were forced soon after that interview to put out a

statement saying it is Labour Party policy to renew Trident. So where

are we? Do we know what the party's policy is? It is to renew Trident

but he has started this review which involves looking at it all again. We

know he is a unilateralist to start with but whether he can force this

through is dubious. Does it matter, though, if the party policy is in

favour of Trident, if the leader is not? The potential Prime Minister is

not? They split three ways when they went to vote on it in the Commons.

The party agreed they were pro-Trident and when it came to the

vote they split three ways. I think it's difficult for them, it's always

been a really difficult issue for Labour. The question is whether you

want to seal off your negatives, whether you really want to try and

reach out to people. There are an awful lot of people who will like

what he said, there are an awful lot of people that think we have been

involved in terrible wars, we have wasted a lot of money and blood and

let's just get back from the whole thing, let's retreat from the world

and not try punching above our weight. There is something to be

said for that and it is a reasonable argument. He's been true to himself

on this. I think he is and Polly is right, lots of people will agree

with him, not enough to win a general election, the latest ComRes

poll shows Tories on 50% and Labour on 25 and as my colleague James

Forsyth in the Spectator said if this was a boxing match it would

have been stopped by now by the revelry. We are not stopping, we are

going on. So the political parties have had

to move into election mode Stand by for battle buses,

mail shots and your social media timeline being bombarded

by political propoganda. But none of this comes cheap -

Adam's been doing his sums. Democracy is priceless but those

planes, trains and automobiles used in the last election cost money

and we know exactly how much, thanks to the Electoral

Commission database. The Conservatives flew David Cameron

to every part of the UK in one day on a private plane costing ?29,000,

in-flight meals extra. They shelled out ?1.2 million

for adverts on Facebook. The most expensive item was their

election guru Lynton Crosby. They bought ?2.4 million worth

of advice and research from his firm Labour's biggest expenditure

was on good old-fashioned leaflets, costing ?7.4 million

to print and deliver. Hope they didn't go straight

into the recycling. Cheap for all the

enjoyment it gave us. To turn a normal minibus

into Harriet Harman's pink bus Nick Clegg toured the country doing

all manner of stunts transported although the party got a grand's

discount when it broke down. Ukip's then leader Nigel Farage

was accompanied by bodyguards Nicola Sturgeon's chopper

cost the SNP ?35,450. Plaid Cymru spent just over

?1,000 on media training And the Greens spent ?6,912

promoting their tweets. It adds up to a grand total

for all the parties of ?37,560,039. Jabbing at my calculator that works

out at less than ?1 per voter. Adam Fleming there -

and joining me now is the man responsible for the Conservative

election campaigns - for the locals next month

and the general election in June - Welcome to the programme. The Crown

Prosecution Service is reviewing evidence from 14 police forces that

your party breached election spending rules on multiple occasions

in the last election. What are you going to do differently this time?

Well, the battle buses are part of the National campaign spend. You saw

them just on the shot that you did, all three parties had those battle

buses so that's why we believe they were part of the national spend and

it was declared that way. At least 30 people in your party, MPs and

agents, being investigated because they may not have been right to

include it in the national spend. Are you saying you are going to do

nothing differently this time? You asked me about last time and the way

the position is... Was. I asked you about this time. We will take a

careful count and make sure that everything that we do is within the

law. But as I say, the last election, all three parties had

battle buses. It is your party that above all has been investigated by

14 police forces. You must surely be taking stock of that and working out

how to do some things differently. You are being investigated because

you put stuff on the National Ledger which should have been on the local

constituency ledger. Are you looking at that again? All of the parties

had battle buses and they all put them on their national spend. I

don't think any of the parties put them on the local spend. The other

battle buses were not full of their party activists. Your party stuffed

these battle buses with activists and took them to constituencies.

That's the difference. And I ask again, what is different this time?

Are you going to run the risk of being investigated yet again? We

believe that we fully compliant with the electoral law as it was. What

will happen if one of these, or two or three or four or five of these 30

people, Tory MPs, or agents running campaigns are charged during the

campaign? As I say I believe we properly declared our election

expenses. What happens if they are charged? You asking me a

hypothetical question, the importance of this election is about

who is in Downing Street in seven weeks' time. Let me clarify this,

you maintain that in 2015 you did nothing wrong with how you allocated

the cost and the activities of the battle buses and you would do

exactly the same this time round? What we did at the last election we

believe fully complied with the law. So the battle buses this time,

stocked full of activists, will still be charged to the national

campaign even when they go to local constituencies? Will they? We will

be looking at the way we do it, there is new guidance from the

Electoral Commission out and we will look at that guidance. It is not the

guidance, it is the lawful stop the Electoral Commission said that, if

you look at the report they did on us, they said there was one area

where we had over claimed, over declared, and another area we had

and declared. We haven't worked out what to do

yet, have you? We will get on with the campaign and

start the campaign and I'm looking forward to the campaign.

I'm trying to work out of the campaign is going to be legal or not

because last time it seems it could have been illegal.

I am sure the campaign will be legal.

You started the campaign warning about the prospect of, the coalition

of chaos. Mr Corbyn has ruled out a post-election coalition with the SNP

and so have the Lib Dems so who is going to be in this coalition?

Vince Cable said he was looking towards a possible coalition trying

to stop a Conservative government. Is not the leader of the Lib Dems.

He's an important voice in the Lib Dems. Who will be in it? Let's see

because of the Conservative Party is not re-elected with a strong

majority, what will happen? There will be a coalition stopping us

doing the things we need to do. Who will be in it? It will be a

coalition of the Labour Party, the SNP and the Liberal party. They have

ruled it out. I think they would not rule it out if that was the

situation. Like Theresa May not ruling out an election and then

changing her mind? The things the Prime Minister said were very clear,

once she had served Article 50 there was an opportunity, as we know

today, there is going to be the start of a new government formed in

France and in September we have the German elections. So it was quite

right that we didn't get ourselves boxed into a timetable. That is why

the Prime Minister took the view that they should be a general

election to give her full strength of an electoral mandate when it

comes to those negotiations. What about Mr Corbyn's plan for four new

bank holidays, good idea? I'm not... If we get Corbyn in No 10 Downing St

we will have a permanent bank holiday of the United Kingdom. We

will have fewer bank holidays of most other major nations, most about

major wealthy nations. What about at least one more? Well, look, he's

talked about four bank holidays. Today would be a bank holiday and

next Monday would be a bank holiday and the other week was a bank

holiday too. I don't think it's very well thought out. It sounded more to

me something like you get in school mock elections rather than proper

elections. Your party is the self-styled party of the workers and

you have no plans to give the workers even one extra bank holiday?

What we want to do is ensure Britain is a strong economy and building on

the jobs that we have created since 2010. We were told that by reducing

public expenditure unemployment in this country would go up,

unemployment has gone down and the number of jobs have gone up

substantially. But no more bank holidays? Well, we will make our

manifesto in due course but I don't think four bank holidays held in

April, March and November are very attractive to people. When Ed

Miliband as leader of the Labour Party suggested the government

should control energy prices by capping them, the Conservatives

described that as almost Communist and central planning. Do still take

that view? You'll see what we have to say on energy prices. I didn't

you about that, I asked you if you take the view... The Prime Minister

made a speech at the Conservative Spring conference in which she

outlined her dissatisfaction about people who are kept locked on a

standard tariff and those are the issues we will address in the next

few weeks when the manifesto was published.

Would that be an act of communism? You will need to see what we say

when we set out the policies. It could be. You could put a Communist

act into your manifesto? I don't think you'll find a Communist

manifesto in a Conservative manifesto which will be launched...

You are planning to control prices? We will address what we think is

unfairness in the energy market. Mr Jeremy Corbyn was reluctant this

morning to sanction a drone strike. You heard us talking about it

earlier against the leader of Islamic State if our intelligence

services identified him. What would it achieve? When the Prime Minister

gets certain advice in the national interests, she has to act been that.

We've seen with Theresa May in her time as Home Secretary and Prime

Minister, she's not afraid to take those very difficult decisions. What

we say this morning from Jeremy Corbyn was a his tans, a reluctance.

I don't think that serves the country well. What would it achieve

if we take out the head of Islamic State he's replaced by somebody

else. It brings their organisation into difficulties. It undermines

their organisation. It shows we'll take every measure to undo an

organisation which has organised terrorism in different parts of

Europe, the UK. I think it is absolutely right the Prime Minister

is prepared to take those kind of measures. Jeremy Corbyn said he

wasn't prepared to take that. Because he wasn't sure what it would

achieve. The Obama administration launched hundreds of drone strikes

in various war zones and we in the west are still under attack on a

regular basis. Mr Corbyn's basis was what would it achieve? It would

achieve a safer position for the UK overall. The war on terrorists. But

the Westminster attack, Paris has just been attacked again? There's

been attacks which have been stopped by the intelligence services. We

must do all we can to support them. The question was about drone

strikes. Whether it is drone strikes or other action, we have to be

prepared to act. Let's move on to Brexit. It is the major reason the

Prime Minister's called the election? Not the only within but

the main reason? It is one of the reasons. Now we start the two-year

negotiations and then a year afterwards. Also the way in which

certain people said they would try to use in the House of Lords or

House of Commons to prevent us making progress. I think you'll put

in your manifesto, it is the Government's policy, the Brexit

negotiating position will be no more freedom of movement. Leave the

single market and no longer under the jurisdiction Europe. You expect

every Tory MP to fight on that manifesto. What will you do with Ken

Clarke and Anna? They will have fought on their manifesto. They will

understand the Prime Minister has the authority of the ballot box

behind them. Will they fight the election on these positions? I'm

sure they'll fight the election supporting the election of a

Conservative Government and it's manifesto will quite clearly set

out... You know they're against these positions. Ken Clarke has a

prod tradition of expressing a certain view. Overall, the party's

manifesto, it is not just individuals like Ken Clarke, it is

what happens as far as the House of Lords are concerned, people said

they'd use the House of Lords to prevent certain measures. You're the

party chairman, will it be possible for people like Ken Clarke to fight

this election under the Conservative ticket without sub describing to all

-- subscribing to all of these Brexit conditions? Ken Clarke will

fight as Conservative candidates. That wasn't my question. I know

that. Will they be allowed to fight it on their own ticket and not

subscribe to what is in your manifesto? The manifesto will be

what the Conservative Party fights the General Election on. There will

always be cases where people have had different views on different

parts of the manifesto. That will be the guiding principles for the

party. Philip Hammond says your election promises in 2015, in your

manifesto not to raise taxes tied his hands when it came to managing

the economy. Do you agree with him? No. The simple fact is we have to do

the best things for the economy. We'll set out in our manifesto in a

few weeks' time, what the policies will be for the next Parliament. Can

I clarify, you don't agree with your Chancellor? What Philip was saying

was some of the areas we wants to address as Chancellor, what the

party will do, it will set out all the issues we're fighting on. It

will set out clearly the choice we have in this country. That's the

important thing. Let me put the question to you again. Philip

Hammond said this week your election promise in 2015 not to raise taxes

had tied his hands when it came to managing the economy. I ask you, do

you agree with him? You said no. Philip expressed his view as to what

he would like. What I'm saying is in a few weeks' time we'll set the

manifesto which will set the policies, agreed with the the

Cabinet. He's Chancellor. Doesn't he determine what the economic part of

the manifesto is? We'll talk about that in due course. Will you have a

lock on the taxes that you locked in 2015 on income tax, VAT, national

insurance? That will be decided. You'll see that when we publish the

manifesto in a few weeks' time. Will you rule out the possibility taxes

may have to rise under a future Conservative Party? Conservative

Government. We've taken four million people out of tax. Now, on average,

people are paying ?1200 less tax than they were on the same salaries

in 2010. I'm very provide of that. I can assure you, the Conservative

Party will want to see taxes reduced. It is the Labour Party

which will put up taxes. We have the evidence where this he did so.

Council tax went up by over 100%. You haven't reduced the tax burden

as a percentage of the GDP is now going to reach its highest level

since the mid-180s which was when Conservatives were in power. The tax

burden in this country under your Government is rising? We've more

people paying taxes which is something, because we've a growing

economy and more people... What about the tax band? You said you

reduced the tax burden on your own Government's figures is rising? We

have reduced the tax burden. The threshold at which people start

paying. These are tax rates not the tax burden. It is rising. The tax

rates have been reduced. You said tax burden. Perhaps I misspoke. Tax

rates have been reduced. We'll leave it there. No doubt we'll speak again

between now and June Is France now about to make it

a hat-trick of shocks The prospect terrifies

the governing elite in Paris. But they're no less scared

in Brussels and Berlin, given what it could mean

for the whole EU project, never mind the huge potential impact

on our own Brexit negotiations. 11 candidates are contesting

the first round of the presidential Only the top two will go forward

to the run-off on May 7th. For the first time since General De

Gaulle created the fifth Republic in 1958, it's perfectly possible that

no candidate from the ruling parties of the centre-left or the

centre-right will even make it The election has been dominated by

the hard right in the shape of the who's never been elected

to anything and only started his own party

a few months ago. And the far left in the form

of Jean-Luc Melenchon, a former Trotskyite who has surged

in the final weeks of the campaign. The only candidate left from the

traditional governing parties is the centre-right's

Francois Fillon and he's been struggling to stay in

the race ever since it was revealed that his Welsh wife was being paid

at generous public expense for a job I've just come across

this magazine cover and it kind of sums up the mood

of the French people. It's got the five main candidates

for President here but it calls them the biggest liar, the biggest cheat,

the biggest traitor, the most paranoid, the biggest demagogue,

and it says they are the winners The four leading candidates,

Le Pen, Melenchon, Macron and Fillon, or in with a chance

of making it to the second round. Only a couple of points separates

them in the polls, Frankly, no one has a clue what's

going to happen. Of the four, there is a feeling that

two of them may be President But the two of them may not find

themselves in the second round. Somebody said to me that the man or

woman on the Paris Metro has as much a chance of knowing

who will win as the greatest experts Because the more expert you are

the more you may be wrong. The country has largely

stagnated for over a decade. One in ten are unemployed,

one in four if you are unlucky Like Britain in the '70s there is

the pervasive stench There are three keywords that come

to mind. Anger, anger at the elite, and in

particular the political elite. And an element of

nostalgia for the past. These three words were decisive

in the Brexit referendum. They are decisive in

the French election. Identity and security has been

as important in this election France is a proud nation, it worries

about its future in Europe It seems bereft of ideas about how

to deal with its largely Muslim migrant population, huge chunks of

which are increasingly divorced It is quite simply exhausted by

the never-ending Islamist terrorist attacks, the latest only days before

voting in the iconic heart of this If Fillon or Macron emerge

victorious then there will be continuity of sorts, though Fillon

will struggle to implement his Thatcherite agenda and Macron will

not be able to count on the support of the French parliament, the

National Assembly, for his reforms. But if it's Le Pen or Jean-Luc

Melenchon then all bets are off. Both are hardline French

nationalists, anti the euro, anti the European Union, anti-fiscal

discipline, anti the market, Either in the Elysee Palace

would represent an existential Brexit would simply become

a sideshow, the negotiations could just peter out as Brussels

and Berlin had bigger fish to fry. We're joined now from

Paris by the journalist 8th Welcome to the programme.

Overshadowing the voting today was yet another appalling terrorist

attack in Paris on Thursday night. Do we have any indications of how

that's playing into the election? That initially people thought this

has been almost foiled in that the police were there as a ramp up. One

policeman was killed. But the terrorist did not spray the crowd

with bullets. It was seen as not having much of an effect on the

election. This has changed. We now know the policeman who was killed, a

young man about to the promoted, he was at the Bataclan the night of the

terror attack. He was a fighter for LGBT rights. The fact he was

promoted, happy within his job, he has this fresh face. Sudden, he's

one of us. It took perhaps 48 hours for the French to process this. But

now they're angry and this may actually change the game, at least

at the margins. To whose advantage? I would say the two who might

benefit from this are Marine Le Pen, she's been absolutely

anti-immigration, anti-anything. And made no bones about it as she

immediately made rather strange announcement in which she'd said if

she'd been president none of the terror attacks which happened in

France would have happened. Francois Fillon has written a book two years

ago called Combating Islamic Terrorism he's has an organised plan

in his manifesto. Unlike Emmanuel Macron who stumbled when he was

asked the evening this happened what he thought, he said, I can't dream

up an anti-terror programme overnight. The question, of course,

that arrows was this is not the sort of thing that's just happened

overnight. It's been unfortunately the fate of France for many years.

Let me ask you this finally, what ever the outcome on May 7th in the

second round, who ever wins, would it be fair to say French politics

will never be the same again? Yes. Absolutely it's a very strange

thing. People have no become really excited about this. You cannot go

anywhere without people discussing heatedly this election. The anger

that was described is very accurate. Very true. There was this feeling as

for the Brexit voters and the Trump voters, vast parts of the people

were being talked down to by people who despised them. This has to

change. If it doesn't change, we cannot predict what the future will

be. We'll know the results or at least the ex-the Poll London time

tonight at 8.00pm. Thank for joining us from the glorious heart of your

city. Now, the Green Party currently has

one MP and they'll be contesting many more seats in June

as well as hoping to increase their presence on councils in

the local elections on 4th May. Launching their campaign

on Thursday, co-leader Caroline Lucas made

a pitch to younger voters. When it comes to young

people they've been But one crucial way they've been

betrayed is by what this generation and this government and the previous

ones have been doing when it comes We know we had the hottest year

on record last year, you know, you almost think what else does

the environment need to be doing All the signs are there

and it is young people who are going to be bearing

the brunt of a wrecked environment and that's why it's so important

that when we come to making that pitch to, yes, the country at large

but to young people in particular, I think climate change,

the environment, looking after our precious resources,

has to be up there. And I'm joined now by the Green

MEP, Molly Scott Cato. Welcome back to the programme.

Promised to scrap university tuition fees, increase NHS funding, rollback

cuts to local councils spending, how much would that cost and how would

you pay for it? Like the other parties we haven't got a costed

manifesto yet, it's only a few days since the election was announced so

I will come back and explain the figures. You don't know? Like every

party we have not produced accosted manifesto yet, we produced one last

time but public spending figures have changed so we're not in a

position to do that but we will be in a week or so. What taxes would

you like to consider raising? We would consider having higher taxes

for the better off in society. I think we need to increase the amount

of tax wealthier people pay. How do you define better off? I'm not

entirely clear what the precise number would be but I think 100,000

people would pay a bit more, 150,000 quite considerably more but the real

focus needs to be on companies avoiding paying taxes. I work on

that a lot in my role in the European Parliament, we see an

enormous amount of tax avoidance by companies moving profits from

country to country and we need European corporation to make that

successful. It has not made much difference yet. We have made lots of

changes. Google turned over $1 billion and only paid 25 million in

taxes last year. There was a significant fine introduced by the

competition commission on Apple and in the case of Google we must change

the laws so that people cannot move profits from country to country.

Everybody wants to do it. But you couldn't face a big spending

programme on the ability to do that. You'd have to increase other taxes.

If you look at the cost of free student tuition, tuition fees and

also maintenance grants to students, that would come in at about 10

billion a year. One way of paying for that would be to remove the

upper threshold on National Insurance, bringing in 20 billion a

year, that's the order of magnitude we are talking about. It is not

vast, and some of the proposals we have... That would be an increase on

the better of tax? National Insurance on people earning...

People earning above 42,000. You would have another 10% tax above

42,000? I can't remember exactly how much the National Insurance rate

changes by. But in government figures it would be 28 billion

raised. I think it is up to 45, a bit more you pay a marginal rate of

40%, you would have them pay a marginal rate of over 50%? We would

put the National Insurance rate on higher incomes the same as it is on

lower incomes. If you are a school head of an English department on 50,

60,000 a year you would face a marginal rate under U of over 50%?

It is not useful to do this as a mental maths exercise but if you

look at other proposals would could have a landlord licensing system,

longer term leases on properties, so young people particularly, but also

older people who rent, could have more security which needn't cost

anything. We could insist on landlords paying for that. The

mental arithmetic seems clear but we will come back to that. How is the

Progressive Alliance coming? It is going well, I have heard of a lot of

interest at local level. Winterset this in contest, context, lots of

progressives are concerned about the crisis in public services, prisons,

social care system, and also about the Tories' hard extreme Brexit they

are threatening. You want the left to come together? Theresa May has

given us opportunity, she has taken a risk because she has problems with

backbenchers, she doesn't think she can get through Brexit with a small

majority so there is an opportunity and we are saying progressives must

come together to corporate, Conservatives are effective at using

the first-past-the-post system and we have to become effective as well.

Do you accept this Progressive Alliance cannot become the

government and Mr Corbyn is the Prime Minister? How could it happen

otherwise? I think that is a secondary question. For me the

primary question is who do people choose to vote for? Aluminium

government afterwards comes after the election. In most countries that

is the case. I understand that but we have the system we have and you

accept this Progressive Alliance cannot be in power and thus mystical

Burmese Prime Minister? Personally I think Mr Corbyn is less of a threat

to the country than Theresa May, she has shown herself to be an

authoritarian leader and she has said she doesn't want to have

dissidents, which I would say is reasonable opposition, and what we

are suggesting at the moment is there is a way of avoiding that very

hard Brexit and damage to public services. You'd be happy to pay the

price of having Mr Corbyn as Prime Minister? I do not see that as a

price. People have the choice of Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May as

Prime Minister, that's the system that works. You would prefer Mr

Corbyn? I would but votes are translated into seats and the

Progressive Alliance is a step towards that.

It's just gone 3:50pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, Wales

and Northern Ireland who leave us now.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

So, off we go again in the capital, two years after the last one,

but with a hard-fought, some say divisive, mayoral

What will London do now with Brexit into the mix in this,

easily the most Remain place in England.

The Conservatives have provided us this week with Paul Scully,

who was in 2015 elected MP for Sutton and Cheam.

We also have with us the man co-ordinating

the Lib Dems' campaign, Tom Brake,

up to now MP for Carshalton and Wallington.

And the man doing likewise for Labour, Andy Slaughter,

Welcome to all of you. Just to kick off, realistic expectations,

starting with Paul, about what the Conservatives will do in the

capital. In London I would hope they will be winning well in south-west

London where it will be a tight fight against Liberal Democrats. Tom

I am sure will be on his toes, neither of us having fought in

Sutton for a long time will take anything for granted but I will give

him a run for his money. We need to be seeing if we can be making games

like in Ilford North and places like that as well. We will come onto that

later. Andrew Slaughter, honest and self-criticism, a realistic

assessment? Theresa May has misjudged calling the election both

on the issues and on the timing of it. She will get a nasty shock if

she expects people to just do what she is telling them. The British

public will not like that. Expectations about your own party?

In London I think we will do extremely well, partly as you say

because it is a Remain city and she's going for the hardest of hard

Brexits. Partly because the overall Tory message was very backward

looking, very monochrome type of view, which doesn't go down well at

all. Tom Brake opening thought, one step at a time? Paul Scully has

identified that south-west London will be a battle ground between the

Tories and the Lib Dems correctly. We have also heard that Ukip are

swinging behind Kate Hoey in Vauxhall which makes an interesting

prospect. And perhaps the seat that Simon Hughes used to hold which was

a very strong remain voting seat in the referendum where people may feel

let down by the Labour Party on the position they took on Brexit. We

will talk about that later because he is launching officially later

with a visit by the leader later on. The MP for that seat is just as

positive for Remain so let's not... We might discuss that later how

positive. We will discuss how positive he is about his own leader

later but let's move on. So, we've heard some

mention of target seats But let's get more detail

on the current picture and where the most crucial battles

could be fought, with Raph Sheridan. David Cameron wins a Tory

majority with the Lib Dems In London, Labour bucks the national

trend and performed well. Sadiq Khan is the

capital's Labour mayor. Islington North MP Jeremy Corbyn

is Labour's leader and the Lib Dems The Lib Dems launched their campaign

here in Richmond Park where they managed a 22% swing

in a by-election victory last year. Bermondsey and Southwark,

Hornsey and Wood Green are hugely important,

significant seats for us. Bound to look at places

like Vauxhall and think with a heavily pro-Leave Labour MP

and a very liberal constituency, there's every chance we could do

well in places like that. Their strong stance against Brexit

is giving them a lot of ammunition against the Tories in the pro-EU

constituencies they lost I don't know what's wrong

with me, but I'm looking forward to this

election. I think it's because we're

full-on talking to people. I think that's what I remember

in 2015 The Labour Party has its strongholds

in inner London so their key where Jeremy Corbyn

launched his campaign. Do you want a Labour

MP that will stand up The Labour council in Croydon

is building council housing. I want a Labour Government that

builds council housing. Labour holds seats

across outer London Even the tiniest of swings

could mean the Tories once again Outer London, lots of marginal

constituencies where I think Labour MPs which in constituencies

in the past would not have been seen as absolutely

marginal will be worrying. There was a local council

by-election on Thursday in Harrow which showed a 9% swing from Labour

to the Conservatives. For many years, people have

described London as a Labour city. Come June 9th, will all

of that have changed? Where do we start? Let's start where

you were before the film. You say in somewhere like Southwark, where

there is a Remainer, that could neutralise the impact of Simon

Hughes, if this is going to be a Brexit election they will bond the

purest sense of rejection of it and will go for the Liberal Democrats

and not Labour. People have a variety of views, some people would

like us to stay in the EU, I would like to stay in the EU, or give

people a second referendum. Other people would say, yes, we respect

the result of the referendum but we want to replicate those terms

because those are good trading terms for the UK. To say it is a black and

white position as Tom Wood is ridiculous. I was correcting the

mistake which is that Neal Coyle with me and many other Labour MPs

voted not to trigger Article 50 so I hope we will not see in this

election campaign misrepresentation. How much those individuals might

have done, people will see it for what it was, that you had to say

that and do that and you knew an election would be coming sometime. I

think we have moved on in politics a lot and we will see some very

different results in different parts of the country in different

constituencies in the selection than we did before. So it's very

important when I put out my literature, or Niall does, or anyone

else does, they are clear about what their line is. It is absolutely

right, Keir Starmer our Brexit spokesman has said, quoting David

Davis, the Brexit Cabinet Minister, that we want to see the exact

replication of the trading conditions. I would like to go

further. I would like to see a second referendum or a vote in

parliament because Theresa May is not giving the British people what

they want. She's not giving them a choice. Tom Brake, south-west

London, like the south-west of the country, everyone knows now, there

will know immediately these are your targets, the Conservative candidate

there, I'm not sure quite why I'm going to enjoy this, she said, but

do you accept there will be limited Liberal Democrat advance and can

only be a limited advance because you are so far behind in so many

seats? Even someone like yours and in Paul's seat, narrowly Leave

areas. It is a myth to think the Liberal Democrats are doing well

just in Remain areas. We're not just going to make this

election about Brexit. This is also going to be about critical issues

such as the future of the NHS, the future of our local hospitals. Some

of those issues we'll come on to. How will you... You'll struggle in

your area where people prefer, definitely want to leave. And are

looking for signals there is a strong commitment to make that

happen? What I also think people want, they want to know if Theresa

May's re-elected at Prime Minister, there is a large vocal body of

people, Liberal Democrat members of Parliament to fight the Prime

Minister to ensure the hard Brexit she wants to enshoe which I think

will cause maximum damage to British jobs and families, is not the one

she'll end up delivering. You can only secure that if there is a large

body of MPs willing to fight her. The official Labour Party was supine

and frankly useless. The reason the Liberal Democrats want to fight this

on Brexit is they were complicit in the drew instruction of the NHS when

they were in coalition with the Tory Party. You can't air brush five

years of propping up a Tory Government. You see Tobias, an MP

for two years, you voted Leave as well, do you feel sorry for people

like Tanya Matthias who it looks like your party may be sacrificing

with this early election? I agree with Tom, this isn't just about

Brexit. It will clearly with the backdrop. Let's deal with the

backdrop first. What Tanya and I can do, and other Conservatives, is

compare the parties. Look to are what people want for the future. 52%

who voted to leave looked at different things. So did the 38%.

You have the Labour Party who can't agree about their position. The

Liberal Democrats are becoming increasingly shrill. It can have a

limited effect on the sidelines... You were a beneficiary of this in

2015 when you won, you took all those seats from the Liberal

Democrats, forced them virtually off the map in London. People in there

supported remain, a lot of candidates, Conservative, who got in

were Remain. They've' found themself with something they didn't want.

This isn't about rerehearsing last year's referendum. But it will be?

That was a by-election. A protest. I started talking to you about

Twickenham and Kingston. Voters may make it a very hard time for you.

Voters have their choices. They debate about the issues they want

to. We have to explain to people there is no point in rerehearsing

last year's arguments. Far better to concentrate on the individual

Industry Secretariers, individual communities, different styles of

business, so we can get the best, bespoke deal. Because Theresa May

has a wide negotiating position, doesn't mean anything's set in

stone. Do you think the timing's good? Coming so soon. Do you really

think the case has been made that there is is clear plan for how we'll

exit without all the harm that might be done when we loose access to the

single market? That's why this will be an interesting conversation over

the next seven weeks. Negotiating will take a full two years. This

isn't something that will be on June 9thth, we'll have a deal with the

rest of Europe, hard or soft Brexit. This will be something that will

involve politicians. I already was going to have, before this was

called, a set of public meetings to talk to people about what they

expected out of Brexit. The referendum, that last year's debate

has settled. Clear cloys, Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn leading this

process, getting that best deal now? I'm convinced Theresa May is ruining

this country. This hard Brexit path she's following. She wants to reject

our biggest trading partners and go off round the world talking to

dictators hoping she can patch together something. Brilliant

answer. That's repeating a point. And what a Labour Government under

Jeremy Corbyn will do is it will ensure that we replicate as quickly

and surely as possible the trading relationships to give us the

prosperity we want. Tom, adjudicate. Which of those parties will be best

able to deliver Brexit? I don't think either are well placed to.

That's why we want as many Liberal Democrats elected so the centre of

gravity which is very much on the hard end of Brexit is brought back

to the centre where most people whether they voted for Remain or

Leave, thought the UK would be within the single market. That's

what people who voted thought the Prime Minister was going to do. We

are not going to leave the whole Brexit theme but we'll drill down a

little deeper. How are the key issues as well as Brexit of Labour's

recent divisions. It is policies too. Worries over public services.

How will that be viewed in potentially one of the tightest

races? I will for the North. To make this report,

we trawled through pages of data about the constituency and found

apart from being quite a multi-cultural area, this part

of London is strikingly normal. So, whether you're looking

at how old people are, how much education they got,

whether they're healthy, how many cars they own,

if they own their own homes or not, Ilford North is uncannily

near the national average on almost But politically, this is a knife

edge constituenciency Labour won by just 589 seats

in the last election. With the polls suggesting big swings

to the Conservatives this time round, the people of Ilford North,

if it really is like the rest of the country, could well wake up

on 9th June with a Conservative We'll get you shown around

in one of our taxis. The man who has the job for now

is Labour's Wes Streeting. He took us on a tour

of the neighbourhood which, according to BBC research,

voted almost exactly like the rest of the country in the EU referendum

with 52% opting to leave. This is meant to be

a Brexit general election. My sense from talking to people,

I knock on doors every week and have done for the last two years,

I have to prompt conversations on Brexit more time

than not on the doorstep. Next stop, Wes's

constituency office. Were we typical from the man almost

certain to be his Conservative I'm sure I'll be seeing a lot

of you in the next seven weeks. In the last two years, Wes made

a name for himself as a leading critic of the Labour Party leader

Jeremy Corbyn, even going as far as saying the party can't

win a general election The battle is joined

by mobile phone. There's a landslide Tory Government

will deliver the hardest of hard Brexits and will deliver classic

Tory policies that will hit people, particularly the poorest,

on lower-middle incomes, They don't care every

school in my constituency They don't care my local A

is about to be closed. They don't care about the disabled

people in my constituency who've had their motability

vehicles taken away. The Labour leaflets handed out

on the street that we found have But quite a bit about Wes

himself and local issues, particularly the fate of the A

and The King George's Hospital. At the local Conservative

Association we showed them to the man at the other end

of the phone call Clearly, every election I've ever

stood in as a member of Parliament, as a councillor, every single time

I hear from the Labour Party that King George's is closing,

there will be cuts there. Later on, I'll take you down

to the A at King George's, I'll take you down to the hospital

which is still functioning. So, I don't believe scaremongering's

going to help anyone. There are no plans there would not

be, at the very least, a 24-hour I campaigned to keep St George's A

open and will do so again. So, if he's trying to make

the local NHS a non-issue, what would Lee like this election

to be about? Do we want a coalition chaos under

Jeremy Corbyn or do we want In the end, it is voters and not

politicians who decide how Jeremy Corbyn, not the best

speaker but he has a good I've never voted Conservative

in my life to be honest with you, I don't think I like

the present Prime Minister. Normally Labour, but I think

Theresa May's probably the best The Greens and Liberal Democrats

are also standing in Ilford North. Ukip have told us they're

looking for a candidate. But with just 46 days to go,

in this part of London, One of the issues for health in a

moment. First, quickly, about Wes streeting. We talked about Neil coil

in Southwark. Two very critical of the leadership. Do they deserve to

win when they've been so critical of the leader. Wes street something a

fantastic MP. Not Neil coil? I think I've made the case for Neil. Even

though they haven't. When they've been so critical over the last few

months and years, if they are not rallying fully behind the leadership

now do they deserve to win? I think you know the answer to the question.

I know these people. They are committed to their constituencies

and their constituents. That could have been me speaking about school

cuts and threats to local hospitals. It is a cheek for the Tory candidate

there to say that. The only reason these A closures have been delayed

not withdrawn is because there's such a crisis in the health service.

So much demand, so many people waiting so long on trolleys and A,

they have not been able to close them this year. Make no mistake,

they intend to do that. My next question, scaremongering, if hasn't

happened? No, because the NHS is in crisis because the Tories haven't

funded it and demand's going up. Any sensible Government, this is my real

beef with Theresa May's Government, any sensible Government would say

that's not going to work. Our plan to close A, in fact, they are

saying they'll go ahead with them. Every school in my constituency will

lose up to 25% of its school budget. St Helier hospital, between you two,

you both campaigned to keep it open. Paul Scully, Andy Slaughter saying

it won't stay open. With St Helier, we've heard is a quarter-of-a

century saying it will close with no viewpoint of how to take this off

the table. What I've been keen to do is work with the Chief Executive of

the hospital locally to see what we can do to maybe build a new hospital

facility in Sutton that is going to provide all those services. You

think there is a future there? But it... Let's trust the Tories, Tom

Brake. He's arguing for the closure of St Helier hospital No, I'm not.

With a replayment at the Sutton hospital site. There isn't the money

which amounts to 500 million or ?600 million to build a hospital on the

Sutton site. The risk of what he's advocating is we lose St Helier

hospital and don't gain Sutton hospital. You're wrong on both

counts. It doesn't cost that amount. I know from 25 years of campaigning

enough about the future of the hospital to know what it will cost.

It will cost around ?75 million. Do you think there should be any A

closures, any reforms? The last review is consultant-led. If you're

a junior doctor why go to St Hell year when everyone says it will

close down. You want to go to St George, where the action is,

according to the political waves. So, it is a self-perpetuating cycle,

really. Can I say, doctors would want to go to St Helier hospital

because it is one of the highest performing in London and achieves

the best results in A It is a shame it could be closed down. Can I

pick up on some of the themes from earlier. Your leader Jeremy Corbyn,

not apparently committing yet. Not clear about Trident which will come

up on the doorstep. Do you want to see a commitment to keep Trident in

the manifesto? There is a commitment. I'm sure it will be. You

want that though? It will be. It will be party policy and it will be.

You mentioned the doorstep. I've been eight hours there this weekend.

The Health Service came up, housing crisis, schools, housing crisis.

Very neat swerve. I can't even get on to Brexit and the NHS. Do you

agree this lock on taxation, which should be prepared to look the a

national insurance, income tax, VAT to see if this rises are necessary?

The Chancellor can talk about flexibility. I did speak out to the

Treasury about the national insurance changes in the last

budget. I've run businesses for 25 years. I don't want to send the

wrong signal to people taking risks. But in terms of flexibility for the

Chancellor, we'll see what the manifesto brings. A number of people

said to me, the Liberal Democrats, tuition fees. They still can't let

that go. People who have's children going through. What will you do

about that? I've campaigning a lot. No-one's mentioned tuition fees. On

all the wrong issues today. The Prime Minister has chosen to make

this general election Brexit. That is what we'll fight it on. But also

on issues like the NHS. Run out of time. Andrew, back to you.

Now, Ukip have made their first significant policy announcement

of the election campaign today with a call for a ban on wearing

But is it a policy that will meet with the approval of the man

who bankrolled the party's last general election campaign?

Hello, Andrew. Let me see if I can clarify some things, are you a

member of Ukip? I a patron of Ukip so I don't stop being a member. So

you are still a member? I am, apparently for life. Are you still

hoping to bankroll Ukip? Not at the moment. Why is that? The internal

problems we have had in Ukip have been aired, and a lot needs to

happen in the party in terms of professionalising it and I think it

is ill-prepared for this general election. Are you going to run in

Clacton? I will be if selected. For Ukip? Yes. Have you been to Clacton?

I've been with Nigel Mansell on the campaign. You will run for a

constituency you've only been in once? Yes, why does that surprise

you? You know nothing about it. I've just recently decided to become the

candidate there. Did you know where it is? Of course I do, your piece

the other night was completely wrong. I said I knew where it was

but I didn't know much about it. Maybe the people of Clacton will

regard you as a carpetbagger? Why? Because you have never been there.

Most politicians are carpetbaggers and I will be there for the right

reasons. I thought it was because of your visceral hatred of Douglas

Carswell. He only lasted 24 hours after I announced my candidacy so we

will see what happens. The main thing I am going to Clacton on

Monday to meet the Ukip councillors, see what the issues are and see if

they want me as a candidate. They may not want me. Who do you think

you will be up against? The potential Conservative candidate.

Who in Ukip? I don't suppose anyone in Ukip will stand against me, I

wouldn't have thought. Really? I would have thought. Money talks! Why

do you say that? You talked about having a pirate radio station to

blast into Clacton so it is not covered by the election rules.

You've been talking about financing a sort of right-wing Momentum

movement. I just wonder, has politics now just become a

Richmond's hobby? From my perspective the reason I'm

interested in it is if you have looked at what has happened in the

country, it's clear the Conservatives will have a massive

majority. -- has politics become a rich man's hobby. Only putting up

candidates not against Brexit MPs. Is Ukip over? I don't think so. The

electoral maths is interesting because first-past-the-post

effectively could help Ukip in this example. Ukip got one MP with 4

million votes. What we are seeing is the total collapse of Labour. In

that situation there are certain seats up north in Hartlepool and

other seats like that, the total collapse of the Labour Party could

help Ukip to win a few seats. Is Ukip over? It looks that way, yes.

They haven't made much of a dent in Labour's vote in the north, they

don't really have a defining issue anymore and all the polls we have

seen published since the election was called show Ukip vote is going

to the Conservatives. Is Ukip over? It always happens when the

Conservative Party goes far to the right, really hard Brexit, there is

no space for BMP, Ukip and all of that. Are you associating the BNP

with Ukip? Or that, movements to the right of the Conservatives get eaten

up one the Conservatives move as far right as Theresa May has done. I

think what your enterprise shows is how it's really time to reform

funding of political parties. It is disgraceful that very rich people

can move in and bankroll the Brexit campaigned to the extent that they

did. We need proper state funding of parties. The union is bankrolling

Labour. I assume the reform would include trade unions? Indeed. Ukip

has lost its talisman in Nigel Farage, it was a one-man party, I

have to say, people like Tim. Having voted for Brexit its reason to be

has gone. It will still take votes from Labour and the Conservatives

but probably only from the don't knows. There are seats in certain

places where if enough Tories back Ukip dated when. Hartlepool is an

example. Were the Tories will never win. The demise of Ukip has been

forecasted many times before but I don't see a Tory candidate winning

in a place like Hartlepool. So we could see, and I think we will see,

the total collapse of the Labour vote. We shall see. The leader of

the party of which you say you are still a patron, Paul Nuttall, said

he would ban the Burcea and the niqab in public, what is your view?

-- the niqab and the Burcea? I'm not in agreement with that. If it is a

security issue at airports or public transport it could be acceptable but

I'm not in favour of curtailing people's writes. You have gone

further than him, haven't you? You tweeted you wanted to ban Muslim

immigration. In my view the problem we have had with the lack of

integration in certain communities has come about through mass

open-door immigration. If you are a must win you wouldn't be allowed in?

What I said in the tweet was I think they should be a ban on

immigration... You said Muslim immigration. That's what I believe.

If you are a world famous doctor coming to help one of our big

teaching hospitals in this country because you are a Muslim you could

not get in? We have to start somewhere, there are huge problems

in areas where 20% of the population don't speak the language, they

haven't integrated. You should read the rest of the tweet, it is control

of immigration from a 10-year ban on unskilled immigration. The first

thing you said was to ban Muslim immigration, it is in black and

white. I have said that, I do not dispute that. I was questioning

that. There is my answer, you cannot tell somebody's will adjust freedoms

but what you can do is stop adding to the problem. Doesn't that sound a

bit like the BNP? It's as like BNP and like Trump. Its, we hate

Muslims, fine, if that is what you are standing for, that is clear. The

final word is we have had open-door mass immigration from the

Conservative Party, we've had it from the Labour Party and its fine

if you are in north London to say these things, if you live in Oldham

and your community has been radically changed and you have a

whole population not integrating in, not speaking the language, something

has got to be done. We had better leave it there. Thank you for coming

in. I am en route to Clacton. We will see how you get on there.

Now, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron was on TV earlier today

and he was asked again about an issue that he's been

asked about repeatedly - his attitude to homosexuality.

when they asked you whether gay sex was a sin.

Come on, Robert, I've been asked this question loads

few days and I have been clear, even in the House of Commons,

It's possible I'm not the only person getting tired

Probably, but then why don't you just close it down?

Toby Young, why does he get into such a mess over this? I mean, he is

leader of the Liberal Democrats. Its 2017. I guess the reason he keeps

refusing to answer that question is because what the implication is that

he does think that homosexual acts are sinful, and he cannot bring

himself not to say that, or to say what Robert Peston and others want

him to say because he is an evangelical Christian who converted

at the age of 20, 21, and clearly he really struggles with this issue and

I think it will be really difficult for the Lib Dems to promote, or even

Lib Dem candidates like Vince Cable, to promote the idea of the

Progressive Alliance even though Tim has ruled it out, if he is not

prepared to say I don't think homosexual acts are sinful. What is

your view? It is disastrous if that is what he really thinks but Preston

did not push the hard. I'm not sure he understood the difference about

the question between gay sex and being gay. I think he just thought

he was going on saying I'm not anti-gay. He needs to command

immediately and clarify it. If you are right and he does actually think

it is a sin he is in real trouble. There is a slight parallel with what

police said before about Jeremy Corbyn, how his unilateral nuclear

policy would appeal to the hard core of the left. The problem for Tim

Farron with what he is saying here, while he is an evangelical

Christian, this will not appeal to traditional Liberal Democrats. An

LGBT community member cannot possibly vote for an MP who believes

that a sexual act between homosexuals is sinful. He has not

made that clear. Of course, he wants to stop Brexit as well so he is

neither liberal nor democratic. He will have seven weeks to make it

clear because I am sure he will be asked again. We have the chairman of

the Conservative Party on earlier, Polly. An important figure for the

Tory campaign. What did you make of what he said? I don't think he will

have him on very often, he didn't do brilliantly. I think they will bring

back chemical Ali, Michael Fallon, he can say anything with a straight

face, he can say black is white. Michael Fallon, chemical Ali? Why do

you say that? He can absolutely say black is white. For instance if you

look back at what he said, you challenged him about the energy

policy, when Ed Miliband came out with it, he said any kind of freeze

would stop investment, the lights will go out. You have him on, he

will say the exact opposite. He is magic at that. But I don't think

your guy today was up to the job. If Michael Fallon was chemical Ali, or

we should say chemical Fally, Patrick was more like comical Ali.

The whole Iraq war is rushing back at me. He is the warm up comedian,

there is another six weeks to go, just getting things started. What

did you think? I don't think he was too bad, it was difficult for him to

say exactly what was in the 2050 manifesto is going to be replicated

in the Conservatives' manifesto during this general election, he

doesn't want to be seen rowing back on stuff but on the other hand I

don't think he can conceal the fact they will be far fewer commitments

in this Conservative manifesto than in the last one, as you and I know,

it was full of rash promises last time because they thought they would

have to trade a lot of them away in the negotiations with the Liberal

Democrats to form a second coalition so they are saddled with policies

they don't particularly want to be hemmed in by. The forthcoming

Conservative manifesto will be much lighter and shorter with fewer

commitments. Different? Some stuff jumped from the 2050 manifesto? I

think so but we will see a commitment to run schools to

overcome that hurdle in the next parliament and I don't think, in

spite of what you think, Polly, that it will be a hard tack to the right.

I think if anything the mood music of the Conservative manifesto will

be a centrist inclusive one. The mood music will be because the

specifics would be there. She is good at saying governing for

everybody and the many and not the few but when you look at the hard

facts of what her and Hammond's budget looks like, you look at her

hard Brexit, it's a very different story. Or that, the music has

stopped for this week! Thank you. I will be back next week at the normal

time of 11am on Sunday morning. On BBC One The Daily Politics is back

at midday tomorrow and we will be on every day next week on BBC Two.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it is The Sunday Politics.

There'll be a couple of hours of just fantastic music, really,

all the Ella classics, as well as some very special guests,

we have Mica Paris, Imelda May, Dame Cleo Laine