14/01/2018 Sunday Politics London


14/01/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith and this

is the Sunday Politics -

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your inside briefing on all the big

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political stories happening

in Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up on today's show.

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The decision to release serial sex

attacker John Worboys...

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Does the Government now "look more

like the country it represents"?

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After a tricky reshuffle, we speak

to one of the new faces sitting

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around the Cabinet table -

the immigration minister

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Caroline Nokes.

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Does the Government have a clearer

idea about what our future

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relationship with the EU

should look like?

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And for that matter,

does the Labour Party

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have a settled view?

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The Shadow International Trade

Secretary will be here.

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In London as the BBC's McMafia

enthralls TV audiences, we look

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behind the headlines at global

money-laundering in the capital.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And sitting around our top

table today, I'm joined

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by some familiar faces.

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We tried a reshuffle

of our own but they simply refused

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to budge: Tom Newton Dunn,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

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and Steve Richards.

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Now, after a pretty bumpy 2017,

Theresa May actually went

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in to the Christmas break

in relatively good political health.

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So, what better way to kick off 2018

than by shaking up her top team

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and reasserting her authority?

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But as she found this week, things

don't always go according to plan.

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If you're going to carry out major

surgery on your Government, you need

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to be sure the prognosis is good.

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It was a picture of health

to begin with, a fresh,

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new team at Party HQ,

but before long, complications

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arose.

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Justine Greening, who's had a rocky

time at Education, decided

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she'd had enough.

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She quit the Government

rather than accept a

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sideways move.

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While Jeremy Hunt refused

to budge from his job at

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Health.

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He even left his meeting having

added social care to his job

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title.

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There was a fresher look among

the junior ministerial ranks.

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But when the new Cabinet met

on Tuesday morning, it looked...

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Well, very much like the old one.

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Normally loyal Conservative grandee

Nicholas Soames asked, "Is that it?"

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The state of the NHS

then caused more pain.

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Dozens of senior doctors wrote to

the Prime Minister saying conditions

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in some hospitals were

becoming intolerable.

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Patients were dying prematurely.

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We have now clearly reached

the point where the NHS

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cannot meet the standards

of care that we would,

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all of us in the NHS,

ministers included, want to provide.

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At Prime Minister's Questions,

the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

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pressed on the bruise.

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We know the Prime Minister

recognises there is a

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crisis in our NHS,

because she wanted to sack

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the Health Secretary last week

but was too weak to do it.

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Mr Corbyn announced his own

reshuffle towards the end of the

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week, with a surprising

return to the front

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bench for Clive Lewis,

who

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has been cleared of sexual

harassment claims.

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While two other Labour

MPs, Kelvin Hopkins and

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Ivan Lewis, have been referred

to an independent disciplinary

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panel over allegations

of sexual misconduct.

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On Friday, US President Donald Trump

raised the temperature, cancelling

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his visit to the UK next month

to open the new American Embassy.

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Calling the decision to relocate

the building to an off

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location is a bad deal.

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His friends on this side

of the pond suspected

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there were other reasons

for his decision.

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Just maybe, Sadiq Khan,

Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party

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planning mass protests, maybe those

optics he didn't like the look of.

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Nigel Farage also set

pulses racing with this:

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I'm reaching the point

of

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thinking that we should

have a second referendum because...

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On what?

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On EU membership.

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The whole thing?!

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Of course, of course.

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The Conservatives

hope focusing on the

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environment will bring

the party back to health.

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The Prime Minister teamed up

with her new eco-warrior

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Environment Secretary, Michael Gove,

to crack down on the use of

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plastics.

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We must reduce the demand

for plastic, reduce the number of

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plastics in circulation

and improve our recycling rates.

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It all seems strangely

reminiscent of someone who

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once said, vote blue, go green.

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In another tricky

week that's left the

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PM looking a little

green around the gills.

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Now, let's pick up on a story

which broke overnight: the new

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Justice Secretary David Gauke

is considering a judicial review

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of the decision to release

the serial sex attacker

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John Worboys on parole.

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Earlier this month the Parole Board

announced that he would be released

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under strict licence conditions.

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He was jailed in 2009 for a minimum

of eight years for drugging

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and sexually assaulting 12 women.

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However, it's thought he may have

carried out as many as 100 rapes

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and sexual assaults on women

in London in the early 2000s.

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I will take this to the panel first.

This is obviously a very emotive

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case, and people get very worked up

about it, but the politics of the

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Justice Secretary, Tom, asking for a

judicial review against the body

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which is really under the

supervision of his own department,

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this gets a little odd.

Justice

Secretary criticises Justice

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Department shock. There is a whiff

of panic in the Government over this

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now. I think David Gauke's decision

is emblematic of that. For whatever

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reason, the Government have found

themselves on the wrong side of

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public opinion on this. An appalling

mass serial rapist is about to be

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let out of prison this week, having

served less than ten years for

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crimes most of which he wasn't even

prosecuted for. They have seven or

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eight days to do this judicial

review, and David Gauke has only

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done it because he is under pressure

from other Cabinet ministers. The

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entire Justice Department and

justice policy has really been

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interested for up to seven years

because the Tory Government really

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can't make up its mind between a

liberal justice establishment is

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based on rehabilitation and less

time in prison and the more

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traditional Tory authoritarian lock

them up and throw the key away

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system, and the consequence is

today's decision. You have had five

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Justice Secretary is, from the king

of soft justice himself, Ken

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of soft justice himself, Ken Clarke,

and now David Gauke, so perhaps it's

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no huge surprise that the system is

now in a bit of a mess.

If Tom is

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right that the Government are

playing catch up on John Worboys

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because of the huge public outcry,

is it nonetheless the right thing to

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do?

It seems to me the parole board

breached their own rules. The

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victims have a right to make

representations. We know that some

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of the victims whose cases were

brought, and again, he is not

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convicted as a serial rapist because

those cases one brought to court, a

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decision made by Kia Starmer, then

the Director of Public Prosecutions.

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The other fundamental issue is a lot

of what Tom was saying, that the

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Tory Government is out of touch, as

I think all of the establishment and

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party leaders are. Is this

ridiculous nonsense that someone is

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released halfway through a sentence,

if you are sentenced to ten years or

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whatever, you should be serving the

full sentence, and maybe six months

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off for good behaviour, or better

still, more years on for bad

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behaviour. I think the British

public think the justice system is

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an absolute joke, and they think

that because it is.

You raise an

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interesting point about what the

public care about versus what is

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debated at Westminster. We spent an

enormous amount of last year talking

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about Brexit, to the exclusion of

most other things. A few other

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issues have raised their heads this

week, Steve. First and foremost, the

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NHS has been causing more than a few

political problems for the

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Government.

If Brexit wasn't

swamping everything, this would be

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the overwhelming issue. Voters are

much more concerned about this than

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anything else, with good cause. At

some point, there will have to be a

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grown discussion about funding of

the NHS and how we pay for it.

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Whether that will be possible in the

current climate I doubt. But I don't

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think it's entirely impossible

because I think the crisis will

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intensify. In a way, that has been

overlooked, that 2017 election

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partly accepted miraculously in

British politics that to get

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improvements in some services you

have to pay for it. So, maybe there

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will be a grown-up debate, but don't

hold your breath. In the meantime,

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it will be an issue that Theresa May

will have to keep at least one eye

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on, as well as trying to negotiate

the impossible with Brexit.

At PMQs,

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the Prime Minister said the NHS was

the best prepared it had ever been,

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and doctors were saying that

patients were dying prematurely. In

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the short-term, political damage

absolutely. The tanks are parked on

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Labour territory there. The general

consensus in the country is not that

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they trust the Tories on the NHS,

which is a big issue for them. A lot

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of the problems are down to the fact

that we're getting older and living

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longer, and there are amazing

treatments, operations and drugs

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that can keep us alive. We see it as

a problem but it is a wonderful

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miracle of modern science and

medicine and we should be grateful

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for such problems.

The big news was

that we were going to get a

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Government that looked more like the

rest of the country in the

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reshuffle. It turned out not to be

quite as dramatic as some of us

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expected. Was it a Government fail?

Depends how you define fail. It has

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taken a few days for the penny to

drop, though I had my suspicions on

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the night when some of the 20 15th

intake got no promotions at all. It

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was a tell-tale sign. Was it a

success in that it stored to the top

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of the buildings? Not really, she

just rearranged the deckchairs on

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the Titanic. Caroline Noakes was

attending Cabinet rather than being

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a full cabinet minister, but the

Theresa May managed to fend off the

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vultures coming for her by

absolutely wilfully, it now appears,

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failing to put key rivals into key

positions, people like Rory Stewart,

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Dominic Raj, some of the 2015ers? It

was a public fail but digging in

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privately.

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Well, listening to all that is my

first guest, Caroline Nokes.

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She was promoted to immigration

minister in the reshuffle this

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week and, in that role,

now attends Cabinet.

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Congratulations on the new job. You

are presumably part of the making

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the Government look more like the

country. Did the Prime Minister

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achieve that?

I think she did. Look

at the whip's offers, where there

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are more women than ever before. I

remember coming in in 2010 and

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looking at a wet's office that was

really mail.

Why can't we have 50-50

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women in the Cabinet?

We are heading

in the right direction, there are

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two more women in the Cabinet.

Even

the Scottish Government has a policy

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of 50-50 in the Cabinet - surely

it's possible?

We started from a

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very low base of women, even

elected. I think we're doing a

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fantastic job of encouraging more

women to come forward, and from more

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diverse backgrounds. It is a work in

progress but we are headed in the

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right direction.

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right direction. People like Kerry

bad not, who went to the same

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university as I did, the University

of Sussex, hardly a breeding ground

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for Tory politicians.

In the

Government, there are 3% non-white

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people - not very representative?

We

have done a good job of attracting

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more diverse people to come and

stand the rise in the Government.

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Our messages, -- our message is,

we're working hard to make sure that

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those bright, young women from

diverse backgrounds have a chance.

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You know, it's a process, isn't it?

We are all climbing up the ladder. I

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think the Cabinet looks better than

it did. I have always advocated more

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women in Parliament, and the last

debate I did was about getting more

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women to stand in politics, and that

really matters.

The big news this

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morning is the idea that the Justice

Secretary may take a judicial review

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against the release of John Worboys.

What is your view on that? Should do

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just this minute himself be taking

judicial review is against this kind

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of decision?

We will look at the

victims of Worboys and we want them

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to get the support they need and to

see that justice is being done. It

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is absolutely right that David Gauke

is looking at a judicial review.

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None of us feel happy with the

parole board decision. This is a man

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who served less than ten years, and

it's a horrific number of victims.

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We can't see the parole board's

decision or the reasoning for it.

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The Government could change that at

a stroke and allow them to publish

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it. Should they?

The Justice

Secretary is reviewing the process,

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which is important. We want people

to have confidence. Our justice

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system is a very old and proud one.

Let's not undermine it. Let's make

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sure we get the right decisions in

place.

Lets get onto your own brief,

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your new brief on immigration. It

means you inherit the target of

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reducing net migration to the tens

of thousands. The last five

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ministers have failed, will you do

it?

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The last

it?

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The last five

it?

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The last five ministers

it?

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The last five ministers have

it?

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The last five ministers have seen

it?

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The last five ministers have seen

the trajectory heading down, the

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last figures we saw in the summer

show it dropped significantly.

It

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dropped slightly, 14,000 lower than

when you came to power in 2010,

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overall net migration at 240 4000.

We want to make sure this is a

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brittle open for business, that the

brightest and best can come here to

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work and study. We are listening to

the universities and to business via

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the immigration advisory

committee...

So if we are open to

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business and the brightest and best

come here why have this target of

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reducing net migration to less than

100,000? Lots of Cabinet ministers

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would like to get rid of it. You

could have lifted and the 2017

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manifesto and got rid of quite a

headache.

We had a referendum in

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2016 which sent a clear message that

people want that target to remain,

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they want to see as reducing

immigration to sustainable levels

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and we are doing just that. It is in

the manifesto so that is the

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direction of travel.

Immigration

from outside the EU, you claimed

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that once we leave everything will

change with freedom of movement, but

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net migration from outside the EU

which you have complete control over

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now, it's over 100,000 in and of

itself. Why hasn't that been tackled

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in the seven years that this has now

been a target?

We are attacking it,

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and we are doing this I have a

banking measures you have heard

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about this week, working to make

sure that those with bank accounts

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and are not here legally have those

Fresnel cursive necessary, that is

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important, we have a raft of

measures but the current Home

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Secretary and the previous one have

been clear on this, we will get

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these numbers down and do it in a

manageable and sustained way.

It is

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not what business one. The Tory

mayor Andy Street says the target

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should be more like 150,000 so

businesses can attract people with

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the skills they need and George

Osborne says this is economic and

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made illiterate because we need

higher migration and that --

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economically illiterate.

Which is

why we are listening to the

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committee which will report in

September which will give a solid

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expert economist's view on what

migration levels should be. But it

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was in the manifesto, we are

determined to head in that direction

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and bring immigration down to a

sustainable level.

If you're

0:18:010:18:05

immigration advisor comes to you and

says somebody like Andy Street is

0:18:050:18:09

right we need around 150,000 coming,

will you change it? Because this was

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a manifesto promise to get it down

to under 110,000 a year, so what

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will that looked like if you have

disabled we didn't get it right.

Am

0:18:210:18:25

not going to prejudge.

I and asking

what you will do with their view

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because you are stuck with this

promise of reducing immigration to

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tens of thousands, there's not much

you can do if they oppose that.

You

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are telling someone who has been in

the job less than a week that she

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should make a decision on the hoof

in a TV studio! Not a chance. What I

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need to do is listen to the experts

and come up with the direction of

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travel that satisfies those who

voted Believe in the referendum,

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that satisfies businesses, like the

brilliant Russell group University

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and the one in Southampton on the

edge of my constituency can still

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attract the best students. This is a

really difficult complicated area.

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He mentioned the need to attract the

brightest students. While other

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numbers of students coming to

Britain to study included in the net

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migration figures? You could help

yourselves quickly by taking them

0:19:160:19:19

out of it. Just about every Cabinet

member wants them removed from

0:19:190:19:24

official figures, why are they

there?

The O M as determinate

0:19:240:19:28

students should be included because

they are here for more than 12

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months. We must make sure we have

the public services that support

0:19:310:19:38

them. Many of them go home after

their study as they should but it is

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important that we work with the

immigration advisory committee to

0:19:410:19:45

get the right answers.

You are happy

about students being included in the

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migration figures?

And happy we've

got 24% more coming to our

0:19:500:19:55

universities than we had in 2010.

I'm happy that we are attracting a

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great calibre of student here, I'm

equally happy that our former

0:19:590:20:04

feminists are cracked down on bogus

colleges and close them because we

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want bright students to come here

and in the -- that our former Prime

0:20:070:20:12

Minister cracked down on bogus

colleges and closed them.

Button

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back to the panel, Steve Camille

can't envy the new Immigration

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Minister being tasked with reducing

immigration to a level that no other

0:20:210:20:26

Immigration Minister has been able

to achieve.

I don't envy you, I

0:20:260:20:31

don't know your Private view but I

do note that most Cabinet ministers

0:20:310:20:35

don't want student numbers to be

part of the total figure and Theresa

0:20:350:20:39

May alone is still pressing this.

I've just been doing a series about

0:20:390:20:45

a David Cameron. He made a series of

targets which were never met, as you

0:20:450:20:50

said in the interview. Good luck

with that. Lots of people I meet now

0:20:500:20:55

who were in favour of Brexit, like

farmers, pleading, as you will know,

0:20:550:21:01

for cheap Labour from Eastern Europe

to continue. They don't want to fill

0:21:010:21:04

in loads more forms to get them. So

there's a lot of talk

0:21:040:21:15

there's a lot of talk about Nimby

free movement and you have a tough

0:21:150:21:18

brief.

Julia, should net immigration

be reduced to tens of thousands, is

0:21:180:21:24

it important to the public?

I find

it bizarre they asked to a target

0:21:240:21:28

they've never done anything to

reach, certainly the immigration

0:21:280:21:32

levels that they were able to

control under the coalition and

0:21:320:21:35

David Cameron on his own, the

numbers can't be controlled

0:21:350:21:40

completely, they never even came

close, it was more than double,

0:21:400:21:44

about 250,000. I find this row about

students strange. If you live in the

0:21:440:21:49

country for three or four years you

need somewhere to live, you'll be

0:21:490:21:52

getting buses and trains, might need

to go to the hospital, is that the

0:21:520:21:57

idea that these people don't exist

because they are not here

0:21:570:22:00

permanently? And some of them do

stay. It's ridiculous. We need a

0:22:000:22:05

sensible debate. Brexit wasn't about

ending immigration. It was about us.

0:22:050:22:11

Like virtually every other country

in the world choosing who gets to

0:22:110:22:14

come here. If you are qualified and

have a skill we need we would love

0:22:140:22:18

to have you, come on in, the water

is lovely! But if we just want cheap

0:22:180:22:24

Labour subsidised by the taxpayer

with a housing benefit, to do jobs

0:22:240:22:29

not paid enough, then I don't think

we should. When it comes to farmers

0:22:290:22:32

we should pay more for...

Julia has

given quite a good explanation of

0:22:320:22:39

why the target was set up and should

probably stay because if there is no

0:22:390:22:43

target, then cheap Labour will

continue to flow in because it's the

0:22:430:22:47

easiest thing for business to do. If

you are limited in who you can bring

0:22:470:22:52

in new might turn to the indigenous

British population and start hiring

0:22:520:22:56

them to do decent jobs they are

perfectly capable of doing.

The

0:22:560:23:01

panel will be staying with us

throughout the programme. Thank you

0:23:010:23:05

to Caroline Nokes, the Immigration

Minister, for coming in.

0:23:050:23:09

Now with all the other stuff that's

been going on this week,

0:23:090:23:12

you might be concerned we'd

forgotten about the small

0:23:120:23:14

matter of Brexit.

0:23:140:23:15

But don't worry, it's

still very much on the agenda.

0:23:150:23:17

Having sealed a deal

on the divorce talks,

0:23:170:23:20

the focus is now shifting

to the future relationship.

0:23:200:23:22

The EU says we can only

have an 'off-the-shelf' model,

0:23:220:23:24

like the deals with Norway

or Canada; but the UK Government

0:23:240:23:26

says we can be far more ambitious,

as Elizabeth Glinka reports.

0:23:260:23:31

# Do you have the time #

To listen to me whine?#.

0:23:310:23:39

In her Florence speech,

Theresa May made it

0:23:420:23:44

clear that when it comes

to

0:23:440:23:46

trade negotiations with the EU,

the UK isn't looking for any

0:23:460:23:48

off-the-shelf kind of deal.

0:23:480:23:50

It wants something

special and bespoke.

0:23:500:23:54

I'm optimistic about

what we can achieve

0:23:540:23:55

by finding a creative solution

to a new economic relationship that

0:23:550:23:59

can support prosperity

for all our peoples.

0:23:590:24:05

Before Christmas, the senior

official in charge of Brexit

0:24:050:24:07

told the Cabinet that

when it comes to that

0:24:070:24:09

creative solution,

they

0:24:090:24:13

should start thinking in terms

of three baskets, what some people

0:24:130:24:15

are calling managed divergence.

0:24:150:24:16

The Institute for

Government has been

0:24:160:24:18

looking at what it means.

0:24:180:24:22

Three baskets corresponds

to the three areas

0:24:220:24:24

that Theresa May spoke

about in her Florence speech.

0:24:240:24:26

We have full alignment,

where we will continue to

0:24:260:24:28

meet the same outcomes

in the same way as we do now.

0:24:280:24:31

Regulatory equivalence

is where we will

0:24:310:24:32

continue to meet the same

outcomes as the EU

0:24:320:24:34

but might go about it

in a

0:24:340:24:36

slightly different way.

0:24:360:24:38

And then the final basket

around divergence,

0:24:380:24:42

where we will go about things

in a different way and may choose

0:24:420:24:45

to take completely different

outcomes at the

0:24:450:24:46

end of it.

0:24:460:24:48

OK, so if we were to look

at particular industries, say

0:24:480:24:51

something like aviation, maybe

workers' rights, we might put them

0:24:510:24:53

in this basket because we are saying

not much is going to change.

0:24:530:24:58

It would be very difficult to put

0:24:580:24:59

whole industries and whole sectors

in specific baskets.

0:24:590:25:02

If you take agriculture,

for example, state aid

0:25:020:25:07

and how much overall we can

subsidise our farmers may well sit

0:25:070:25:12

in full alignment, whereas issues

about agricultural and environmental

0:25:120:25:15

protection standards,

we could continue to

0:25:150:25:17

meet the same goals

but

0:25:170:25:18

by different means, and they can sit

in the middle basket.

0:25:180:25:23

Whereas, actually,

exactly what we subsidise

0:25:230:25:26

our farmers for could be completely

up to the UK and sit in the

0:25:260:25:29

divergent basket.

0:25:290:25:30

So it would be very difficult

to put single sectors

0:25:300:25:33

in single baskets.

0:25:330:25:34

If the UK is looking

for a high degree of access

0:25:340:25:37

to the single market,

then the EU will expect

0:25:370:25:39

lots of things ending up in the full

alignment basket,

0:25:390:25:43

whereas the UK will probably want

to try and pull as much as possible

0:25:430:25:45

into the regulatory

equivalence basket.

0:25:450:25:49

Of course, the point of all this

is is to remind the EU that

0:25:490:25:53

when it comes to these negotiations,

the UK is in a unique position

0:25:530:25:56

because currently we

are completely in sync.

0:25:560:26:00

It's in the interests of Britain

and the EU to get on

0:26:000:26:02

together.

0:26:020:26:09

People are thinking that it's

a binary thing, we are either

0:26:090:26:11

in the EU or we're out, that it's

night and day, but it isn't.

0:26:110:26:15

The point about

managed divergence is

0:26:150:26:16

that it does give us

much more flexibility.

0:26:160:26:18

We can decide for ourselves

which bits we want to keep

0:26:180:26:21

and which bits we want

to amend or get rid of.

0:26:210:26:23

And I think...

0:26:230:26:24

I think that's a huge opportunity.

0:26:240:26:26

Philip Hammond and

David Davies have been

0:26:260:26:28

on a charm offensive

in Germany this week,

0:26:280:26:30

so just how are those very British

baskets going down in

0:26:300:26:32

Brussels?

0:26:320:26:33

There is a concern that the UK

will take a shopping basket,

0:26:330:26:36

pick off the elements of the major

trade agreements the EU has secured

0:26:360:26:39

with third countries,

take all those together.

0:26:390:26:41

It gets the UK very close to full

membership of the single

0:26:410:26:44

market without any of

the obligations, so I think

0:26:440:26:46

they view managed divergence

as another way in

0:26:460:26:51

which the UK either hopes to cherry

pick or have its cake and eat it.

0:26:510:26:55

All member states will

agree that they can't

0:26:550:26:57

set a precedent with

the

0:26:570:26:59

UK that then sets internal

challenges for themselves over the

0:26:590:27:01

medium to longer term.

0:27:010:27:03

Now, what goes into

these baskets remains a

0:27:030:27:10

bit of a mystery, but of course,

there are deadlines because the next

0:27:100:27:13

round of talks is due to get under

way

0:27:130:27:15

this spring.

0:27:150:27:16

And you

can find more Brexit analysis

0:27:160:27:19

and explanation on the BBC website,

at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:27:190:27:23

With me now is the Shadow

International Trade

0:27:230:27:25

Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

0:27:250:27:29

Welcome to the programme, thank you

for coming back. We were learning

0:27:290:27:36

about the different baskets, full

alignment, regulatory alignment.

0:27:360:27:39

Labour say you want to give all the

benefits and the single market so

0:27:390:27:43

presumably want to stay as much in

alignment as we do already?

What

0:27:430:27:49

we've said is that the government

have said we could have all the

0:27:490:27:52

benefits and we will hold them to

that.

To do that, we must keep most

0:27:520:27:58

of what we can in the full alignment

basket?

We want to make sure we get

0:27:580:28:04

as much of the benefits as we

currently have once we have left the

0:28:040:28:09

EU.

You can't do that and diverged.

Absolutely. That's the point.

0:28:090:28:14

Diverges from that, whether through

a trade deal with another country or

0:28:140:28:18

whether it is simply because we want

to deregulate our standards in the

0:28:180:28:24

UK is going to cause a problem with

maintaining the sort of trade we

0:28:240:28:28

have with Europe. It's going to

cause that economic bond. But we

0:28:280:28:32

want to make sure we have a Brexit

that is for jobs, for the economy

0:28:320:28:36

and that's why we see the benefits

of the single market, the benefits

0:28:360:28:40

of the customs union, and swipe we

said we wouldn't rule is off the

0:28:400:28:45

table. Whereas the government

precisely said it would. And that is

0:28:450:28:49

the red lines that Theresa May put

in place that are now causing her

0:28:490:28:51

all these other problems.

They've

caused a few problems in policy for

0:28:510:28:57

Labour as well because the closer

you want to stay to single market

0:28:570:29:00

rules, if we've loved the single

market because that is government

0:29:000:29:03

policy, more alignment would have --

if we've left. That is us accepting

0:29:030:29:09

rules we had no say in making, a

state you have described as being a

0:29:090:29:14

vassal state.

These other uses we

really have to resolve. Because you

0:29:140:29:19

are right, once we leave the EU that

means we are not a member of the

0:29:190:29:23

single market. It doesn't mean we

can't trade into the single market,

0:29:230:29:28

of course we can. We can do that in

the same way that Norway does. But

0:29:280:29:33

our economy is very different from

that of Norway. And what we need to

0:29:330:29:36

be sure about is when we are making

our rules in this country we are

0:29:360:29:41

doing it as close as possible to

maintain the trade and the economic

0:29:410:29:45

benefits we get in the European

Union.

There have been reports this

0:29:450:29:49

week that Labour is working on a

policy that would involve staying in

0:29:490:29:53

the customs union. The Robert Peston

programme on ITV...

That could not

0:29:530:29:59

be the case. I'm sorry to correct

you on a technicality. But once you

0:29:590:30:04

leave the EU you leave the treaties

and it is the treaties that create

0:30:040:30:08

the customs union. So we could not

be a member of the customs union.

0:30:080:30:17

You could be remember of a customs

union, which is what Jeremy Corbyn

0:30:170:30:21

was talking about on TV this

morning.

He was talking about the

0:30:210:30:26

transition period immediately after

leaving the EU. That has been our

0:30:260:30:29

position for many months. We were

the ones that said, in that

0:30:290:30:34

transitional period, we want the

status quo. We want to maintain

0:30:340:30:37

things that are... We want to

maintain a customs union and single

0:30:370:30:42

market during that transition.

Let's

talk about the future after the

0:30:420:30:47

transition period. Let's look at

what you said you thought were the

0:30:470:30:54

consequences.

0:30:540:30:59

consequences. Do you still agree

with that?

I was specifically

0:31:030:31:08

referring to, and if you go back on

that quote a little bit, you will

0:31:080:31:12

find we were talking about the

turkey situation, which was a

0:31:120:31:16

customs union agreement with the EU.

That would be a very bad end point

0:31:160:31:20

for us, because it would mean that

the European Union ended up doing

0:31:200:31:24

all the negotiations for trade for

the UK. We would have to open our

0:31:240:31:27

markets to any other company in --

any other country they made an

0:31:270:31:33

agreement with. But that country

would not have to liberalise its

0:31:330:31:37

markets and open itself up to our

goods and services.

The common

0:31:370:31:42

commercial policy is what governs

all of this and binds us in with

0:31:420:31:45

these trade treaties. The UK

Government say they want to leave

0:31:450:31:48

that. Is that the Labour position?

We will be...

Would you like to join

0:31:480:31:56

something similar once we are no

longer members of the EU?

I already

0:31:560:32:00

said, we believe that the benefits

of what we currently have should be

0:32:000:32:04

maintained as much as possible, and

that means that whilst we cannot

0:32:040:32:07

stay in the customs union, we should

not have a turkey style customs

0:32:070:32:13

union agreement, because that would

be an asymmetrical relationship with

0:32:130:32:16

any trading partner. What we do see

as a possibility, and it is what we

0:32:160:32:21

have not ruled out, which is to have

a new customs union with the

0:32:210:32:33

European Union, and that is

something very interesting wave

0:32:330:32:36

which in paragraph 31 of the

cross-border trade taxation bill

0:32:360:32:41

which came in on Monday from the

Government, and which we debated

0:32:410:32:45

them, they have actually put

provision for that, a new customs

0:32:450:32:50

union, where we would be an equal

member.

But you cannot possibly

0:32:500:32:54

believe that you can have the

benefits of being in a reformed

0:32:540:32:58

customs union relationship with the

EU and still have total freedom to

0:32:580:33:01

make new trade deals. You have said

you don't want anything which

0:33:010:33:05

precludes us from making independent

trade agreements with some of our

0:33:050:33:09

bigger partners.

Let's be clear

about the nexus of problems we are

0:33:090:33:14

trying to solve the run work our way

through. You have, within the

0:33:140:33:21

referendum, a clarity that people

were voting for certain political

0:33:210:33:25

issues, whether that was in terms of

immigration, regaining sovereignty,

0:33:250:33:29

or simply not paying money into

Europe. All of these were things

0:33:290:33:32

people thought they were voting for.

If you were to be in a relationship

0:33:320:33:38

in which some of those continued to

be the case, where we were rule

0:33:380:33:43

takers and not rule setters, as

Norway is at the moment, and they

0:33:430:33:52

are told they have no right to

decide what the rules are going to

0:33:520:33:55

be, that is a political problem

which many people in this country

0:33:550:33:58

would feel, what was the referendum

all about if we don't achieve that?

0:33:580:34:04

Let's...

Just let me... I don't

think it's clear, the problems we

0:34:040:34:09

are trying to solve. We want to

maintain a maximum economic benefit,

0:34:090:34:14

to get the economic benefit of the

jobs that we currently get from the

0:34:140:34:18

trading relationship we have in a

customs union and in a single market

0:34:180:34:23

with the European Union. But to do

that respecting the referendum will

0:34:230:34:27

of the people for those political

objectives.

We understand that

0:34:270:34:31

point.

Labour has to bring back the

42 purse -- the 52% under 48%.

We

0:34:310:34:39

understand need to move you on to

something else. We have heard the

0:34:390:34:45

new Tory chairman Brandon Lewis say

today that if any... He wants new

0:34:450:34:50

Tory candidates to sign up to a

respect pledge that they will

0:34:500:34:54

conduct themselves on Twitter and in

what they say in a respectful way,

0:34:540:34:57

otherwise they will be removed as

candidates.

Of course, that's right.

0:34:570:35:03

Jeremy Corbyn said that Labour

should do it too. It raises

0:35:030:35:07

questions about some Labour MPs.

Jarrod O'Mara, for example, who has

0:35:070:35:12

had the whip suspended.

An

investigation is being conducted, as

0:35:120:35:16

is appropriate, within all the

procedures of our party. Absolutely

0:35:160:35:22

right, suspended.

Because of remarks

he made about women and homophobic

0:35:220:35:26

comments. Then you look at the

Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,

0:35:260:35:29

against whom no action has been

taken, and he has said a number of

0:35:290:35:34

things, but one of them which has

been heavily criticised is that he

0:35:340:35:40

wanted... Well, he agreed with

people who wanted to see Esther

0:35:400:35:45

McVeigh lynched. We have the audio

of this. Let's listen and then we

0:35:450:35:48

will ask you about it.

I was up in

Liverpool a fortnight ago...

0:35:480:36:00

And obviously, he used a word that

we won't be saying on TV, but is

0:36:210:36:26

that respectful language?

It is not

language I would have used. Earlier

0:36:260:36:32

today, you have been quoting remarks

that were made by the President of

0:36:320:36:38

the United States which were deeply

offensive and unacceptable.

Yes.

0:36:380:36:43

Hang on.

But this is about the

Labour Party...

And you quoted. The

0:36:430:36:49

point I am making is that he was

quoting what someone else was

0:36:490:36:53

saying, and I would not have chosen

to do that.

He was clearly quoting

0:36:530:36:58

with approval, not reporting it.

The

underlying issue which the

0:36:580:37:02

Conservatives have been trying to

cover up through all the smear on

0:37:020:37:09

John McDonnell, Esther McVeigh, who

was a Department for Work and

0:37:090:37:11

Pensions minister, and at a time

when she was in charge of work and

0:37:110:37:16

pensions as a minister, her company

had been reported for breach of

0:37:160:37:21

health and safety guidelines. She is

one of the ministers, and for that

0:37:210:37:26

reason...

Jeremy Corbyn said we

should stick to policies and use

0:37:260:37:30

respectful language. That wasn't

respect.

That's what I'm doing now,

0:37:300:37:34

and I'm trying to make the

underlying political point about

0:37:340:37:36

what's going on here. She was in

charge of a department in which she

0:37:360:37:42

was responsible for health and

safety when her own company which

0:37:420:37:45

she was a director of, a

construction company, they had been

0:37:450:37:53

suspended, their work had had to be

suspended twice within three months

0:37:530:37:57

for breach of those health and

safety guidelines, putting workers

0:37:570:38:01

at risk in her own company. She is

also somebody...

We will have to

0:38:010:38:07

leave it there. Thank you very much

for that. It is coming up to

0:38:070:38:12

11:40am. You're watching the Sunday

Politics. Coming up:

0:38:120:38:26

The future of the Ukip leader

0:38:260:38:27

is in doubt after his girlfriend

is suspended from the party

0:38:270:38:30

for racist remarks.

0:38:300:38:31

I'll be speaking

to the Ukip Chairman.

0:38:310:38:33

First though, it's time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:330:38:35

Hello and welcome to

the London part of the show.

0:38:350:38:38

I'm Ellie Price.

0:38:380:38:40

Coming up later: As the BBC drama

series continues to captivate

0:38:400:38:43

television audiences,

we look behind the headlines

0:38:430:38:45

at the real problem of global money

laundering in the capital.

0:38:450:38:51

Joining me for the duration

of the show, the Labour MP

0:38:510:38:53

for Ealing Central and Acton,

Rupa Huq who is Co- Chair

0:38:530:38:59

of the All-Party Parliamentary Group

on Anti-Corruption and Bob Neill,

0:38:590:39:01

Conservative MP for Bromley

and Chislehurst, who chairs

0:39:010:39:03

the Justice Select committee.

0:39:030:39:05

Now, according to a highly critical

report published this week,

0:39:050:39:09

passengers on Southern,

Thameslink and Great Northern

0:39:090:39:12

Services have suffered the worst

rail disruption in the UK,

0:39:120:39:14

with Londoners and London

commuters bearing the brunt.

0:39:140:39:17

The National Audit Office said

the UK's largest rail franchise,

0:39:170:39:21

GTR, has not provided

value for money.

0:39:210:39:23

Jerry Thomas has more.

0:39:230:39:28

The report found that the services

had been the worst n the network

0:39:280:39:36

is

0:39:390:39:39

--on the network

0:39:390:39:40

since Govia Thameslink took over

the routes and at worst only two

0:39:400:39:44

thirds of trains arrived on time,

60% of delays on

0:39:440:39:46

the GDR network were due to

industrial action or lack of crew.

0:39:460:39:48

And nearly 40% of delays were down

to poor infrastructure.

0:39:480:39:51

The Department for

Transport is being

0:39:510:39:52

blamed for not ensuring that

adequate staffing available before

0:39:520:39:54

awarding the franchise.

0:39:540:39:55

Transport Secretary

Chris Grayling responded

0:39:550:39:57

to the criticism in

the House of Commons.

0:39:570:39:59

What I do apologise for is

that we were not able to avoid the

0:39:590:40:02

extraordinarily ill-judged actions

by the trade unions who caused

0:40:020:40:04

massive trouble for passengers.

0:40:040:40:08

in

0:40:080:40:09

The report went on to say

that the Government

0:40:090:40:13

should learn lessons

from

0:40:130:40:14

the case when it sets up other rail

franchises in the future.

0:40:140:40:22

lessons for franchises in the future

- I think commuters would probably

0:40:250:40:30

rather have action now. A sort of

apology from the Transport

0:40:300:40:34

Secretary, but the buck passed to

the unions. What do you think is

0:40:340:40:38

going on, and shouldn't he or the

Government take more responsibility?

0:40:380:40:41

Chris was right to make the point

about the behaviour of the unions,

0:40:410:40:46

which I think was absolutely

unacceptable in that case, but there

0:40:460:40:49

are other problems, and there is an

issue with the way the franchises

0:40:490:40:53

were drawn up in the first place. He

does have an opportunity now to

0:40:530:40:57

change the make-up of those

franchises. I have said the same

0:40:570:41:01

thing about south-eastern, my own

franchise, which I think is too big.

0:41:010:41:06

This one, an enormous geographic

franchise, doesn't make any sense.

0:41:060:41:09

As well as doing what the Government

is doing, they should revise the

0:41:090:41:14

geographic spread of the franchises

to make them smaller. I don't think

0:41:140:41:17

you can get a grip on something that

size. The other thing I suggest we

0:41:170:41:21

could do is to split off the

suburban elements of the franchise

0:41:210:41:25

and integrate those more closely

with TEFL. You could sensibly do

0:41:250:41:29

those things.

Blame for the unions,

Rupa?

I agree with Bob that this

0:41:290:41:37

franchises to a unwieldy. Northern,

Southern, Thames Link, bits of

0:41:370:41:43

Gatwick Express. It is too big for

one company. They have said when it

0:41:430:41:49

comes up again in 2021 they will

break it up. Rather than the unions,

0:41:490:41:53

I think it is the way we run our

railways. I think we have to put

0:41:530:41:57

train and track together and put the

whole lot in public ownership. As

0:41:570:42:03

Bob says, it covers from

Peterborough to Portsmouth.

The

0:42:030:42:07

problem is, we feel there is a blame

game giving on, the Government

0:42:070:42:11

blaming the unions, the unions

blaming the train companies. We need

0:42:110:42:16

something done and soon, and the

Government has suggested it is not

0:42:160:42:19

going back to

0:42:190:42:29

going back to TFL.

They should

ensure closer operational working

0:42:290:42:33

between TFL and whoever gets the new

franchise. I still think they should

0:42:330:42:38

break up the franchises. Putting

train and track together, I agree on

0:42:380:42:41

that. That could be done in the

context of a new franchise. I don't

0:42:410:42:47

agree with bringing it into public

ownership was not I commuted when it

0:42:470:42:51

was British rail. I have been a

commuter for 40 years. The myth that

0:42:510:42:55

there was a good British rail is

exactly that. It was terrible,

0:42:550:43:00

absolutely awful.

We don't have to

go to a 70s model, you could do a

0:43:000:43:05

European style one.

The reason I

favour privatisation is that you

0:43:050:43:09

ought, if the company fails, you

should take the camp franchise of

0:43:090:43:14

them.

There is a French company that

took over from a Dutch company. They

0:43:140:43:22

sold off the depot to Canadians. It

seems weird that all these other

0:43:220:43:26

foreign franchises can do it but not

us.

We will have to leave it there.

0:43:260:43:30

We will watch this story.

0:43:300:43:33

This week the Mayor faced questions

from the London Assembly

0:43:330:43:36

about his draft annual budget.

0:43:360:43:37

Londoners will be finding out just

how much he's investing

0:43:370:43:39

in the public services he funds.

0:43:390:43:41

Bhavani Vadde has more.

0:43:410:43:42

It's that time of year

when the mayor's metaphorical

0:43:420:43:44

piggy bank is opened up.

0:43:440:43:46

He has a pot of nearly £16 billion

at his disposal for the

0:43:460:43:50

next financial year.

0:43:500:43:53

Sadiq Khan is currently

being grilled by the

0:43:530:43:57

London Assembly on his spending

plans for the public services that

0:43:570:44:00

he funds, such as transport,

the Fire Service, the work

0:44:000:44:02

of City Hall and policing.

0:44:020:44:04

He's had time to bed into the job.

0:44:040:44:06

This is his second annual

budget and he's decided to

0:44:060:44:09

raise his share of council tax,

unlike his predecessor, Boris

0:44:090:44:12

Johnson, who held it down.

0:44:120:44:17

While police spending

fell under Boris

0:44:170:44:19

Johnson, Sadiq Khan is using his

council tax hike to maintain

0:44:190:44:21

spending on police operations

at around £3.3 billion.

0:44:210:44:23

The issue that stands out

above all others in this

0:44:230:44:29

budget is funding for

the Metropolitan Police Service.

0:44:290:44:31

Keeping Londoners safe

is my top priority.

0:44:310:44:39

Despite this, next year

there will be 2000 fewer police

0:44:390:44:41

officers in the capital.

0:44:410:44:43

The mayor has dropped the strategic

target of 32,000 officers

0:44:430:44:46

which has been in place since 2012.

0:44:460:44:47

He says that is due to government

funding cuts in the face of

0:44:470:44:51

increasing costs.

0:44:510:44:53

The government has forced

the Met to make £600

0:44:530:44:55

million of cuts over

recent years already.

0:44:550:44:57

And the announcement on funding

from the Policing Minister

0:44:570:44:59

before Christmas was

just smoke and mirrors.

0:44:590:45:07

The Mayor, instead of taking

ownership of his own actions, is far

0:45:110:45:17

too quick to blame

everybody under the sun.

0:45:170:45:19

Whether it be his predecessor,

or if he can't find reasons to blame

0:45:190:45:23

him it will be the government

or the man on the moon

0:45:230:45:25

or anybody else but himself.

0:45:250:45:26

The Mayor has the power to move

funds around the GLA group, and

0:45:260:45:29

he has not done so.

0:45:290:45:36

So he could've maintained police

officers numbers at a higher

0:45:360:45:38

level and he hasn't.

0:45:380:45:39

He's putting money into

the London Fire Brigade

0:45:390:45:41

rather than the police.

0:45:410:45:42

And they will be putting

that money straight

0:45:420:45:44

into their reserves.

0:45:440:45:45

So they won't be spending it

on operational duties

0:45:450:45:47

at all.

0:45:470:45:48

Transport is the other big

issue in this budget.

0:45:480:45:50

Overall spending for

Transport For London

0:45:500:45:52

will drop slightly to around

£9.5 billion, and this mayoral

0:45:520:45:54

budget has highlighted some

0:45:540:45:55

concerning pressures

on TFL finances.

0:45:550:45:57

So we've seen the mayor over

the last year cut some of the

0:45:570:46:00

buses across London.

0:46:000:46:03

We are seeing fewer buses

on bus routes right

0:46:030:46:05

across the capital.

0:46:050:46:07

And yet his budget has

a line, saying we're

0:46:070:46:09

going to get more revenue

in from passengers on buses.

0:46:090:46:11

It doesn't stack up.

0:46:110:46:12

TFL is expecting to receive

£900 million less in money

0:46:120:46:15

from passenger fares than was

projected in the mayor's budget just

0:46:150:46:17

two years ago.

0:46:170:46:18

And TFL's level of borrowing

last year just over £12

0:46:180:46:23

million is more

than its total budget.

0:46:230:46:25

That means debt repayments

of about £500 million in the next

0:46:250:46:27

year alone.

0:46:270:46:34

You do need to invest in services

in order to get income for

0:46:340:46:37

the future.

0:46:370:46:39

And one of the biggest pieces

of investment that is

0:46:390:46:41

under way at the moment is of course

the development of Crossrail, the

0:46:410:46:47

Elizabeth Line, parts

of which will start running

0:46:470:46:48

at the end of this year.

0:46:480:46:50

So there will be a huge uplift

in our passenger income.

0:46:500:46:53

This is a draft budget

that is due to be finalised

0:46:530:46:55

next month.

0:46:550:46:56

The mayor seems to have cross-party

support from Assembly

0:46:560:46:58

members on raising his share

of council tax to fund policing.

0:46:580:47:01

But there are questions

over whether he

0:47:010:47:03

is making the best use of the rest

of the money in his piggy bank.

0:47:030:47:07

Joining us, Professor Tony Travers,

leading expert in Local Government

0:47:070:47:09

from the London School of Economics.

0:47:090:47:15

Hello, Tony. You have seen plenty of

these budgets in your time, what do

0:47:150:47:19

you make of this one?

There are

definitely a number of things knew

0:47:190:47:23

about it, we heard about them in the

film. One is the decision not to

0:47:230:47:30

increase police spending

significantly but to stop the

0:47:300:47:32

reduction in police spending that's

been going on for a number of years.

0:47:320:47:37

Police grants have been cut not only

in London and that has left police

0:47:370:47:41

spending lower than it was six or

eight years ago. What we have is a

0:47:410:47:46

clear signal that the mayor is

willing to push up council tax, a

0:47:460:47:50

precept he sets, to stop fat

reduction. It won't lead to a big

0:47:500:47:54

increase in police spending. The

same is true of the Fire Brigade.

He

0:47:540:48:00

has obviously worked out that it is

palatable to lift council tax but

0:48:000:48:04

you want see more bobbies on the

beat.

Not only the mayor and the

0:48:040:48:09

government, they have both agreed

that council tax must go up to pay

0:48:090:48:14

for, as I say, not a big increase in

police spending but at least to make

0:48:140:48:18

sure it doesn't fall any further.

However much politicians in

0:48:180:48:21

different parties will argue that it

is the other's case it's true that

0:48:210:48:26

politicians and the mayor on the

same side to put up council tax, not

0:48:260:48:31

massively to increase police

spending but to stop it falling any

0:48:310:48:34

more.

Rupa, let me bring you in on

this. The Mayor of London has

0:48:340:48:40

somewhat blamed central government

for spending cuts. Yet it has been

0:48:400:48:45

his choice to scrap the strategic

target of 32,000 police officers on

0:48:450:48:49

the beat.

In the film you pointed

out £600 million of savings as they

0:48:490:48:55

are your euphemistically called.

There are more coming. We have a

0:48:550:49:01

government clever at displacing

these cuts. Even in Ealing, we have

0:49:010:49:06

now got fortnightly bin collection.

No one came into politics to do any

0:49:060:49:09

of that stuff. But when everything

is being stretched thinner people

0:49:090:49:13

are doing more and more with less

and less, he's boxed into a corner

0:49:130:49:18

and is running out of options. This

is why the precept has to be raised,

0:49:180:49:22

a courageous thing to do because

Boris wouldn't do it.

The government

0:49:220:49:27

is responsible for 70% of funding of

the Met. Four terror attacks last

0:49:270:49:32

year, not a good look, is it, to cut

funding.

The government has

0:49:320:49:38

protected police spending as a

global figure. Precisely because of

0:49:380:49:42

the terrorist threats more spending

has to go on to those

0:49:420:49:46

counterterrorist issues, that has

made less available, what we

0:49:460:49:54

sometimes call more local policing.

I think that just reflects the

0:49:550:49:58

pleasures we have as a society --

the pressures. I think it's a bit

0:49:580:50:00

rich for the mayor to blame

government and ask them for more

0:50:000:50:03

money when you look at his draft

budget figures there are £40 million

0:50:030:50:06

not allocated. He needs to get his

own budget in order. He isn't good

0:50:060:50:10

at budgeting. He still hasn't

actually worked out what he will do

0:50:100:50:14

with £50 million of money. It

doesn't give you much confidence in

0:50:140:50:17

the approach he is adopting.

Back to

transport, we talked about fair

0:50:170:50:25

revenues going down. Something to

worry about? The mayor and his team

0:50:250:50:30

talk about the opening of the

Elizabeth Line and Crossrail.

They

0:50:300:50:36

were going to open and bring in

extra fares, it will have to because

0:50:360:50:40

part of the funding of Crossrail is

to be paid for by borrowing, and

0:50:400:50:44

that borrowing will now need to be

surfaced from you in. Even before

0:50:440:50:53

Crossrail opened this been a big

reduction in yield fares to TEFL

0:50:530:51:00

compared with what was projected a

few years ago. Some of it will be

0:51:000:51:05

because of their fees, some will be

because of fares on tubes, as well

0:51:050:51:13

as the National rail system have

begun to fall and nobody was

0:51:130:51:18

predicting that.

What do you put

that down too.

Different patterns of

0:51:180:51:23

work, people are responding to the

strikes discussed earlier. Lots of

0:51:230:51:29

reasons. But I think there's

probably a bigger change going on in

0:51:290:51:33

society about how people work and

where they choose to live. And TfL

0:51:330:51:37

and all of us will have to cope with

the fact that fair income may not

0:51:370:51:43

grow as it has done for many years

and that will be a challenge for

0:51:430:51:47

TfL.

Rupa, how will TfL cope?

He's

kept his promise of freezing fares,

0:51:470:51:58

generally the Labour Party and

generate the first is a campaign

0:51:580:52:01

about this going up. We had to

differentiate this year.

It's only a

0:52:010:52:07

partial promise.

He couldn't

possibly keep his original promise.

0:52:070:52:11

He's been attacked for doing that

because people say these

0:52:110:52:15

improvements won't happen, I think

he's done it the right way.

That

0:52:150:52:20

freeze will cost £450 million over

several years.

Our constituents...

0:52:200:52:27

On the go via story we had last

summer, some of the first account

0:52:270:52:34

have gone up over 12% since

Christmas.

In consequence of this

0:52:340:52:40

partial fare freeze, we have seen

consolations in other projects like

0:52:400:52:44

the cancellation of 27 new trains on

the Jubilee and Northern minds. It's

0:52:440:52:50

going back to the old Gordon Brown

approach to budgeting.

0:52:500:52:57

approach to budgeting. You've got

Sadiq Khan saying, we are borrowing

0:52:570:53:00

to invest. That's what Gordon Brown

did and what a mess that got us

0:53:000:53:04

into. Not clever budgeting.

George

Osborne slashed the TfL grant... We

0:53:040:53:13

will have to leave it there,

unfortunately although we do like to

0:53:130:53:17

argue about a budget. Tony, thank

you for joining us.

0:53:170:53:23

The BBC's latest hit drama series

McMafia charts the rivalry

0:53:230:53:25

between Eastern European organised

crime factions - and London,

0:53:250:53:27

it suggests, is right

in the thick of it.

0:53:270:53:29

Tanjil Rashid has more.

0:53:290:53:36

London, at the heart

of a nefarious Eastern

0:53:400:53:42

European organised

crime networks, that's

0:53:420:53:44

the picture painted

by the

0:53:440:53:48

BBC drama McMafia in which Russian

gangsters launder their money

0:53:480:53:51

through the City's financial sector.

0:53:510:53:56

And how accurate is it?

0:53:560:53:59

This man was for many years

at the front line in

0:53:590:54:01

the fight against money-laundering

from Eastern Europe and he says...

0:54:010:54:04

Very simply very accurate.

0:54:040:54:09

Typically ends up in

London indirectly, in the

0:54:090:54:11

sense that the assets

are British-based,

0:54:110:54:17

and that's typically property

through foreign-owned companies.

0:54:170:54:18

London is the world's foreign

exchange capital and there's this

0:54:180:54:24

huge network of asset management

companies and corporate service

0:54:240:54:31

providers, professional services,

the lawyers, the accountants.

0:54:310:54:32

There has been increasing

scrutiny of the City's

0:54:320:54:34

role in laundering money

from Eastern Europe.

0:54:340:54:36

Last year, a Guardian

investigation showed that

0:54:360:54:41

three-quarters of $1 billion

of questionable money had passed

0:54:410:54:45

into UK bank accounts over

a four-year period.

0:54:450:54:50

All of the major London-based

high street banks were

0:54:500:54:51

involved.

0:54:510:54:52

One of the strangest causes

of the situation is that rich

0:54:520:54:56

criminals are attracted to London

not because the capital is somehow

0:54:560:54:59

lawless, but precisely

for the opposite reason,

0:54:590:55:00

because the rule of law

is

0:55:000:55:08

so strong here that they know

that they can count on London's

0:55:080:55:15

authorities to protect their private

property, their ill-gotten gains.

0:55:150:55:19

And that's why they

choose London as the

0:55:190:55:21

ultimate destination

to launder all their money.

0:55:210:55:23

The question is what London's

lawmakers going to do about

0:55:230:55:25

it.

0:55:250:55:26

One good measure the government

could take would be to ensure that

0:55:260:55:29

there are prosecutions of the

companies which are in effect front

0:55:290:55:32

companies that allow to be laundered

through them in the United Kingdom.

0:55:320:55:34

The number of cases that

have been prosecuted

0:55:340:55:36

is very small indeed,

and

0:55:360:55:40

we require, I would suggest,

more energy from the UK

0:55:400:55:42

authorities to pursue those

0:55:420:55:43

companies.

0:55:430:55:44

In Russia they call

everyone a gangster.

0:55:440:55:51

So what.

0:55:510:55:52

He's a businessman.

0:55:520:55:53

But McMafia's portrait

of Russian gangsters

0:55:530:55:54

at large in London

is

0:55:540:55:55

disputed by the Russian government.

0:55:550:55:57

In a statement the embassy told us

they believe it is misleading and

0:55:570:56:00

wrong.

0:56:000:56:01

"If anything, a Russian citizen

in the UK is much less

0:56:010:56:04

likely to be imprisoned

than an average British resident."

0:56:040:56:06

Tanjil Rashid reporting.

0:56:060:56:07

We're joined by Russia

expert Luke Harding,

0:56:070:56:08

who last year in The Guardian

exposed the alleged role of London's

0:56:080:56:12

banks in laundering Russian money.

0:56:120:56:16

Hello Luke. It is a good watch for a

Sunday night, but how accurate is

0:56:160:56:22

it?

Is pretty good, the Russian

gangsters back-ups a little

0:56:220:56:26

overblown, but the underlying thesis

that London is the most corrupt

0:56:260:56:29

place in the planet is too, not

because of gangsters running round

0:56:290:56:34

in Westminster but we allowed

through, our banks, lawyers, real

0:56:340:56:40

estate agents, and every so often we

will publish this material, we'll go

0:56:400:56:44

and see the National crime agency

and they will say it's a bit

0:56:440:56:48

difficult, the perpetrators are far

away, we'd like to do something but

0:56:480:56:52

we can't. That's not a sensible

place to be.

Collusion from the

0:56:520:57:01

Russian government, you've suggested

in the past, people are making

0:57:010:57:04

money.

It's not happening far away,

it's an our doorsteps. Walk around

0:57:040:57:09

West London and you can see it. It

is firms registered at Companies

0:57:090:57:15

House in London, one around the

corner which processed $9 billion,

0:57:150:57:19

they have posh sounding names and

look OK but they are owned by

0:57:190:57:22

mysterious entities in the Cayman

Islands, the British Virgin Islands

0:57:220:57:27

and so on. Often this money goes to

British Overseas Territories. The

0:57:270:57:32

government could force these

territories to publish a register of

0:57:320:57:35

who owns what but for reasons that

escape me, they don't.

Reds find

0:57:350:57:41

out. Even TV drama writers are

making money out of this.

It's a

0:57:410:57:47

consequence of London being a global

city which brings a downside as well

0:57:470:57:51

as an upside. And because it is a

comparatively safe place. The

0:57:510:57:55

government have taken a number of

measures. As far as the National

0:57:550:58:00

Crime Agency is concerned we've

recently strengthened the links

0:58:000:58:02

between that and the Serious Fraud

Office by having a specific national

0:58:020:58:06

economic crime unit which can toss

those agencies and pull them

0:58:060:58:09

together more effectively. Secondly

a change in the law has made it

0:58:090:58:14

easier to prosecute cases of

corruption when they occur abroad

0:58:140:58:17

but the perpetrators are here,

that's a big step in the right

0:58:170:58:20

direction. And thirdly we have

greater transparency than most

0:58:200:58:26

places when it comes to registering

ownership. And we've got an

0:58:260:58:29

agreement with the overseas

territories now, they will have

0:58:290:58:33

central measures of ownership and

although they are not all published

0:58:330:58:36

openly they do make all those

details are available to any law

0:58:360:58:40

enforcement agency on request. A

major step in the right direction.

0:58:400:58:44

There's more we could do, we should

continue to be vigilant and look

0:58:440:58:48

more at some of those bogus

companies based here, but more

0:58:480:58:52

resources into those issues.

Rupa

you up on the parliamentary group

0:58:520:58:57

against corruption, we have heard

that the rule of law protects some

0:58:570:59:02

of these people, shouldn't it be

used to pursue them?

The programmers

0:59:020:59:08

section but there's no smoke without

fire and this culture of secrecy due

0:59:080:59:13

to restrictions, there's £86 million

of property, or, more than that,

0:59:130:59:18

isn't it.

Lots of money, think of a

number!

£10,000 alone in the borough

0:59:180:59:25

of Westminster, where we are now,

6000 in Kensington and Chelsea, of

0:59:250:59:30

these properties, we don't really

know who owns them. Because in these

0:59:300:59:34

secrecy jurisdictions of the company

and we don't know that the

0:59:340:59:37

individuals are, we could have

greater transparency.

Rupa seems to

0:59:370:59:42

know who they are.

With respect to

Bob, it's not good enough, the

0:59:420:59:48

others is agencies, they say that

they are overwhelmed and people in

0:59:480:59:51

the banks say there's so much of

this stuff, it's like trying to play

0:59:510:59:58

whack a croc. The way to do this

publicly is shine a light on them

0:59:581:00:02

and end the culture of offshore

secrecy that is blighting this

1:00:021:00:06

country. Also going through

Scotland. A lot of Scottish schemes

1:00:061:00:10

in Glasgow and places like that,

it's not just London. David Cameron

1:00:101:00:15

was keen to do something about this

because his late father was an

1:00:151:00:19

offshore. But from Theresa May I've

seen nothing.

1:00:191:00:26

She has tried to get an

international group. If you move it

1:00:261:00:31

from the British Virgin Islands to

Delaware, one of the US

1:00:311:00:34

jurisdictions, there is far less

transparency than in the UK.

Is it a

1:00:341:00:42

lack of political will?

I think this

Government has dragged its feet. We

1:00:421:00:45

have a strategy that came out at the

end of last year, but we need proper

1:00:451:00:51

legislation. David Cameron, remember

he did that whole summit about it,

1:00:511:00:56

and he said, let sunlight be the

best disinfectant, but there has

1:00:561:00:59

been very little action.

He had an

anti-corruption Summit but two

1:00:591:01:03

months later was out of office.

Very

briefly, Bob, enough being done?

You

1:01:031:01:10

can never do enough. I think we have

taken valid and important steps.

1:01:101:01:15

Events that have happened since

David's time have rather crowded out

1:01:151:01:18

some of the political agenda, but

that doesn't mean we shouldn't

1:01:181:01:22

return to it.

I have to stop you

all.

1:01:221:01:25

That's all we have time for.

1:01:251:01:26

My thanks to Rupa to Bob

and to Luke and with that,

1:01:261:01:28

it's back to Sarah.

1:01:281:01:36

Earlier we were talking about

comments made by John McDonnell

1:01:411:01:46

about Esther McVeigh. The Labour

Party had been in touch to say that

1:01:461:01:51

Mr McDonnell did not quote with

approval, and that comments made in

1:01:511:01:59

Parliament confirm that. We have

been contacted also by the office of

1:01:591:02:07

Kier Starmer, previously the

Director of Public Prosecutions,

1:02:071:02:09

saying he had nothing to do with the

decision about John Worboys, and we

1:02:091:02:12

are also happy to make that crystal

clear. On to other news...

1:02:121:02:18

Ukip has suspended the girlfriend

of the party leader, Henry Bolton,

1:02:181:02:20

after reports that she made racist

remarks about Prince Harry's

1:02:201:02:23

fiancee Meghan Markle.

1:02:231:02:24

In text messages to a friend,

Jo Marney described black people

1:02:241:02:26

as "ugly" and said "her seed"

would "taint our royal family".

1:02:261:02:29

Ms Marney has apologised,

and said that comments had been

1:02:291:02:31

taken out of context.

1:02:311:02:33

Paul Oakden, Ukip's party chairman,

joins us from Birmingham.

1:02:331:02:41

Can Henry Bolton carry on as leader

after this?

I think it is very clear

1:02:431:02:49

that Henry is increasingly in a

position where he has some difficult

1:02:491:02:52

decisions to make. He knows that. He

and I have spoken regularly over the

1:02:521:02:57

weekend, as recently as this

morning. I know he is focused on

1:02:571:03:01

those decisions today. He intends on

making those decisions today, and

1:03:011:03:05

I'm sure that whatever he does will

be in the best interests of the

1:03:051:03:08

party.

It sounds like you expect him

to resign by the end of the day.

Not

1:03:081:03:14

at all. He is in a situation that he

would rather not be in, which he

1:03:141:03:19

acknowledges, but I believe he has

the party's best interests at heart

1:03:191:03:22

and that is what he will focus on.

Would the party's best interests be

1:03:221:03:30

served by him standing down as

leader?

It would be best served by

1:03:301:03:34

the membership having the

opportunity to have their say. Henry

1:03:341:03:38

acknowledges there has been an error

in judgment, and it is now for the

1:03:381:03:42

party membership and ruling body to

make a determination on whether they

1:03:421:03:45

feel Henry is the best person to

lead them into what will be an

1:03:451:03:49

incredibly crucial 12 months for

Brexit. The thing that matters

1:03:491:03:52

beyond Ukip and everything else.

If

he doesn't decide by the end of the

1:03:521:03:56

day that he will stand down, when

will the NEC meet?

A week today. I

1:03:561:04:06

want to be clear - Henry is not

deciding whether he will or won't

1:04:061:04:10

resign today. He's deciding what he

can do to help remedy this

1:04:101:04:15

situation. As leader, he will play

the leading role in making this

1:04:151:04:20

better, clearly needs made better,

and a lot of people take their lead

1:04:201:04:23

from him. The party is represented

by its governing body, which will

1:04:231:04:28

meet a week today. If he is still

the leader Robbie today, they will

1:04:281:04:31

meet at that point and collectively

make a decision about what to do

1:04:311:04:35

going forward.

It doesn't sound like

he has your support.

Far from it. My

1:04:351:04:42

job is to make sure that our

thousands of members, who joined not

1:04:421:04:49

because of the leader's Private life

but because of Brexit, and we will

1:04:491:04:56

not deliver Brexit on our own. Now

that Tony Blair is running around

1:04:561:05:04

with Lord Adonis and Nick Clegg

trying to ride roughshod over

1:05:041:05:08

democracy, we need a grand coalition

of all those groups that fought on

1:05:081:05:13

the League side to come together to

see the journey home. That is the

1:05:131:05:19

priority.

It is a huge distraction

if you're leader is having to fend

1:05:191:05:23

off the stories about his private

life.

It is true that we need to be

1:05:231:05:28

behind our leader 100% in taking

that battle forward. That is

1:05:281:05:33

absolutely key. Whether or not the

party decides it is willing to give

1:05:331:05:36

that support to Henry is for the

party decide. My role as German as

1:05:361:05:41

to make sure they have the ability

to voice their opinion. I have every

1:05:411:05:46

confidence that our national

1:05:461:05:52

executive committee will do what is

in the interests of the party, and I

1:05:581:06:01

have every confidence that that is

what our leader will seek to do.

1:06:011:06:04

Whatever the situation, I am

confident that a week tomorrow, the

1:06:041:06:06

party will be in fine form to take

that to the Remain establishment.

1:06:061:06:09

Thanks for joining us.

1:06:091:06:09

Let's pick up on that with the

panel. What do you think the

1:06:091:06:12

prospects are for the Ukip leader?

Based on that, it has Monty Python

1:06:121:06:19

moment. He will do what is best for

the party, but that best... This is

1:06:191:06:25

symptomatic of a wider crisis for

Ukip. I've lost count of the number

1:06:251:06:29

of leaders they've had.

Five in 18

months.

Three of them were Nigel

1:06:291:06:37

Farage!

He will probably be back

again. They were a powerful vessel

1:06:371:06:41

for delivering that referendum, but

it is a lesson for people wanting to

1:06:411:06:45

start political parties - it was a

fragile vessel. The fragility is are

1:06:451:06:50

now being exposed in this impossible

nightmare they have. They can't even

1:06:501:06:56

find a credible leader. They have

not resigned over principles, they

1:06:561:07:00

have resigned in bizarre

circumstances, time and again.

One

1:07:001:07:08

of them only lasted days.

And that

is not bad going on the basis of

1:07:081:07:12

what could happen in the future. It

shows that it is difficult to set up

1:07:121:07:16

a credible, serious political party.

And they have become incredible.

On

1:07:161:07:21

a more serious note, Paul Oakton was

saying that it is more important

1:07:211:07:25

than ever to have people are giving

the Ukip case as we go through the

1:07:251:07:29

process of Brexit. As a party, can

they do that? Or do people think

1:07:291:07:34

that

1:07:341:07:39

that with the referendum done and

dusted, Ukip are finished?

We have

1:07:391:07:41

seen that in their election results

since. He was a credible leader, a

1:07:411:07:46

background in the police, working in

the EU, the Armed Forces. I don't

1:07:461:07:51

want to live in Soviet Russia or

modern-day North Korea where people

1:07:511:07:56

have guilt by association. He hasn't

made these racist remarks.

She has

1:07:561:08:00

been suspended from the partly, --

the party, she is his partner.

They

1:08:001:08:10

are not taken out of context, they

are outrageous, no question at all,

1:08:101:08:15

racist, disgusting remarks, and no

question that she should be out of

1:08:151:08:18

the party membership. I would say

that his misjudgement in being a

1:08:181:08:22

middle-aged man running off with a

glamour model half his age is the

1:08:221:08:26

embarrassment for him. If he wants

to be in a relationship with someone

1:08:261:08:32

with those vile views, it is a

question of his judgment. But let's

1:08:321:08:37

not confuse the person who committed

the offence. The key thing is, Ukip

1:08:371:08:46

had a role, and Nigel Farage in my

view is one of the most influential

1:08:461:08:52

politicians of the 21st century in

terms of how he has changed

1:08:521:08:56

politics. Part of that effectively

meant that Ukip had no role. They

1:08:561:09:00

believe they have an important role,

because they don't believe Theresa

1:09:001:09:04

May is delivering the Brexit that

many people like me actually voted

1:09:041:09:07

for. I would like to keep them on

the back burner as a credible party

1:09:071:09:13

if and when they are needed to like

the touch paper beneath the stories.

1:09:131:09:18

To hold Theresa May's fee to the

fire. Nigel Farage sprang back into

1:09:181:09:24

the news today, possibly because he

was looking for increased relevance

1:09:241:09:27

to get himself back in the

headlines, saying that he now agrees

1:09:271:09:31

with Nick Clegg and Tony Blair that

there might have to be a second

1:09:311:09:34

referendum. Explain that, Tom.

He

said it on Friday morning, sorry,

1:09:341:09:40

Thursday morning, and now he has

said it again. He has recanted a

1:09:401:09:44

bit, saying that it is not that he

wants one, but it is back on the

1:09:441:09:51

front page of the Observer,

repeating the message. I think there

1:09:511:09:54

are now will be one. Do you think he

could possibly be sniffing out a job

1:09:541:09:59

vacancy coming up any time soon? My

reading of your incisive interview

1:09:591:10:04

with Paul Oakton was that we

1:10:041:10:10

should -- was that he will be handed

a revolver, possibly this afternoon.

1:10:171:10:22

If Nigel Farage came back, it could

be his third or fourth term?

He

1:10:221:10:31

could easily come back. He goes on

TV programmes and gives interviews,

1:10:311:10:37

and you can see our role for him.

The vacancy is about to come up. It

1:10:371:10:42

rather begins to feel like a fait

accompli.

The EU withdrawal bill is

1:10:421:10:49

back in the Commons this week -

trouble for the Government over what

1:10:491:10:52

will happen this week?

At certain

moments, there will be, as there was

1:10:521:10:59

in December, moments of potential

drama, inevitably, because they

1:10:591:11:03

haven't always got a guaranteed

majority. I suspect that defeats

1:11:031:11:08

like we saw with the Dominic grieve

amendment won't happen very often,

1:11:081:11:13

but there will be, as with the rest

of this Brexit sequence, moments of

1:11:131:11:17

heightened drama where it is not at

all clear what is going to happen

1:11:171:11:20

and whether she can get what she

wants through, Theresa May. I think

1:11:201:11:24

the referendum thing is interesting.

There's no reason why the 2016 one

1:11:241:11:29

should be seen as a theological

thing that cannot be touched,

1:11:291:11:33

because the 2016 one showed that you

can have second referendums. It was

1:11:331:11:37

a second one.

Let's have another one

in 40- odd years.

Very briefly,

1:11:371:11:45

Julia, are you disappointed that

Donald Trump is not coming to London

1:11:451:11:49

to open the embassy?

I hold no torch

for Donald Trump. He wants us to be

1:11:491:11:53

lining the roots and way being --

waving our little flags. He wants to

1:11:531:12:00

meet the corgis. I think we should

be friendly with the leaders of

1:12:001:12:07

major global powers who are our

allies in trade and militarily. It

1:12:071:12:13

would be foolish to upset that

because we don't like the current

1:12:131:12:17

incumbent. What might we might be

looking for a trade deal with them

1:12:171:12:20

as well. Theresa May might be

relieved. Oh God, yes!

Someone

1:12:201:12:25

senior in the Government said to me

on Friday, using similar words to

1:12:251:12:29

Donald Trump, it would be an capital

at show if he came, and the same if

1:12:291:12:35

he didn't. -- it would be an S show.

No one made remarks about President

1:12:351:12:50

Macron or Angela Merkel. If we

accept the Chinese president, a

1:12:501:12:54

totalitarian who has his political

opponents murdered, I think we can

1:12:541:12:58

cope with Donald Trump, as hideous

and horrible and racist and

1:12:581:13:01

misogynistic as he is.

Strange that

he has

1:13:011:13:10

he has in -- that he hasn't come

given the respect shall

1:13:101:13:14

relationship.

For our defence and

security relationships, we need

1:13:141:13:18

this.

We have to leave it there.

1:13:181:13:21

That's all for today.

1:13:211:13:22

Join me again next Sunday at 11

here on BBC One XXXXX.

1:13:221:13:26

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:261:13:29

-- join me again next Sunday at 11

here on BBC One.

1:13:331:13:41

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