14/07/2013 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


14/07/2013

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by energy and climate change secretary Ed Davey. Is it time to think again about global warming?


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In the North East and Cumbria: How should Labour change its relations

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with the trade unions? And plans to allow mining deep under

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the National Park in North Yorkshire. Will it create jobs or

:01:35.:01:45.
:01:45.:01:45.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2220 seconds

:01:45.:38:46.

local part of the show, our final one before the summer break. Before

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we hand out the ice lollies, there is a busy political week to get

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through with my guests, North East Euro MP Hughes and Redcar MP Ian

:38:56.:39:01.

Swales. Coming up, 1000 jobs at stake as planners decide whether to

:39:01.:39:05.

allow mining deep under the North York Moors National Park. Is it an

:39:05.:39:09.

economic lifeline or could kill off tourism? We will also be talking

:39:09.:39:12.

about zero hours contracts in the NHS, are they a way of dodging basic

:39:13.:39:18.

employment rights? Let's start on this Miners' Gala

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weekend with Labour's relationship with the trade unions, Ed Miliband

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has promised big and historic changes. Stephen Hughes, you are a

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committed trade unionist. Do you agree there is a need to change

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Labour's relationship with the unions? It has opened peoples eyes

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to what goes on in the political parties. The stories we have seen

:39:38.:39:40.

coming out of Falkirk. We need to modernise the relationship. The

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links with the trade unions are vital. I think it is only right that

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the trade unions should not be automatically signed up, they should

:39:50.:39:53.

have the right to make choices as to whether they want their affiliation

:39:53.:39:56.

fee to go to a particular party or not. That is one thing that Labour

:39:56.:40:03.

has promised. And also the editor of primaries and selection of

:40:03.:40:05.

candidates where MPs are standing down, but my be a good positive

:40:06.:40:09.

development as well. I'd like unions wielded somewhat power over

:40:09.:40:15.

selection of a posse. -- policy. The relationship between the trade union

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and the Labour Party as was been positive. We have had a system of

:40:21.:40:24.

affiliation fees, unions balloting on is whether they want political

:40:25.:40:34.
:40:35.:40:35.

funds or not. But the unions were able to influence the selection.

:40:35.:40:38.

need to revitalise the Labour Party and we need to make sure the trade

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unions want to sign up. One of the things he said was he wants to boots

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-- boost this, doing crib -- to increase considerably. Why should

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never be ashamed about being influenced by the very organisation

:40:58.:41:01.

that was there at the start of the Labour Party two -- why should

:41:01.:41:06.

Labour be ashamed. Time has moved on. In 2010, more people voted, more

:41:06.:41:12.

trade unionists voted Conservative or a Lib Dem band voted Labour. The

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relationship has been breaking down for a long time. And the public do

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not want to see vested interests involved in candidate selection or

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policy formulation, whether it is big business or trade unions.

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you perhaps get a chance for the union members to subscribe...

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agree with Stephen, I think somatic affiliation because you are in a

:41:38.:41:48.
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trade union, but strongly need to be changed. -- automatic affiliation.

:41:49.:41:56.

In the Netherlands, there is a strong trade union movement there.

:41:57.:42:01.

It used to be cool, but these days we are more likely to be digging not

:42:01.:42:04.

a of the ground, it used -- it is used to make fertiliser and what is

:42:04.:42:08.

believed to be the world's the guests supply lies deep beneath the

:42:08.:42:10.

ground in North Yorkshire. Later this month, planners will the site

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whether to allow a 1500 -- if 1500 metre deep mine shaft to be sunk to

:42:16.:42:20.

get it out. The development would create thousands of local jobs and

:42:20.:42:24.

bring some economic benefits to do so. But it's worth it will come at a

:42:24.:42:30.

high price to the environment and to tourism.

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There are plenty of opportunities around Whitby if you want to work in

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tourism for catering. If you want to work in science or engineering,

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opportunities are a little harder to find. Two island like to be a civil

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engineer. -- I would like to be a civil engineer. I would like to do

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engineering at University. I would like to go into a science -based job

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that I do not see it as being in this area. Without places to employ,

:43:01.:43:07.

it forces you to move away. scientists may soon be able to start

:43:07.:43:12.

their careers without leaving home. Baxter what is being found beneath

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the ground here at the North York Moors National Park. It is basically

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a form of fertiliser, the boost this could is, over 1000 jobs. The

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injection of over �1 billion in building this project. But would any

:43:28.:43:35.

jobs created be cancelled out by job losses in the tourist industry? We

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are standing about a mile and a half from the proposed site of the mine,

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looking across the moor land at the drilling rig. We have undertaken

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research on the impact of the proposed mine on the economy and it

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has revealed that could be as much as �35 million lost every year

:43:54.:43:58.

during the construction. That is over a period of up to four years.

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Aside from these fears that opening the mine would deter visitors, there

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are concerns about the impact it would have on the environment.

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Indisputable air, the last thing we want is a major industry, and

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intrusion of this size, just over 12 months ago, I asked the company how

:44:20.:44:28.

much excavate -- excavation would spoil the farm, and I was told it

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would be 200,000 tubing meters. The planning application went in, that

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was 600,000 tubing metres. Within a month, they made a correction of

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saying it was 1.2 million cubic metres of spoil. That is enough to

:44:42.:44:48.

fill Wembley Stadium to the roof. The company says those increases are

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made due to mistake by consultants working for them. They insist they

:44:51.:44:55.

will take care of the National Park. We have established a track record

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of looking at the moment. -- looking after the environment. The National

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Park is an important part of the country. It is something we are

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working to ensure that it is stronger and better, and it is

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getting a more vibrant economy. need to convince the park authority

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to allow them to bring heavy industry to this vast expanse of

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national beauty. The company will have to prove there is an

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exceptional national need to build a mine in the National Park.

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The local MP in the area where the miners plan is Scarborough and

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Whitby MP. I asked him if every job rated by mining, another could be

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lost in the tourism industry. I have was medically we cannot give

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potash mining and environmental blank cheque. But they have bent

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over backwards to make sure the impact on the environment in the

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North York Moors National Park is minimised. There has been some

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rather spurious figures published, that would say we would lose 20% of

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our tourists, that is ridiculous. I have yet to see anyone turn a car

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around when they passed the area. I'm -- I think it would be a shot in

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the arm for the local economy, particularly some of the villages,

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which I note dominated by second homes and holiday cottages. We will

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get some life into those communities. People who work in the

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mine will be able to live in the village, use the shop in the winter

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when it is often quite a struggle. It will have a positive impact on

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the communities and I think the impact on tourism will be minimal.

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You cannot dismiss a National Park Service which suggested that this

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mine during construction could cost �40 million a year to the tourist

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industry. They asked people whether they would be put off going to the

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National Park if there was a mass of mine, and I think 14% said they

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might be. The evidence is not like that. If you go to the village at

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the top of my constituency, it is within sight of another mine, and it

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is still another vibrant tourist community. And we have the impact of

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the construction workers, who will be staying in bed and Breakfast in

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some cases, in local hotels, so they will be quite a positive impact on

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hospitality industry. We need to be careful we do not have too big an

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impact on the guesthouses -- and the ghettos as turnover to construction

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workers for six or seven months and then lose their tourism trade.

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Ian Swales, is it acceptable to put a potash mine in the National Park?

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I have been working closely with York Potash and what did not come

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from the film is the amazing design they have got which puts the mine

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are low ground. The top of the mine, it will be underground. All you will

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see is a building like a barn, and a car park. They have cleverly put it

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underground. All the mind material will be pipelined to Teeside for

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processing. I think they are bending over backwards on the environment

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and I think some of the scare stories are just that. There is

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concern that having a mine is not necessarily the greatest PR. As I

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say, I have seen scale models and photographs, you will barely know

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there is a mine. The processing will be done underground. You will not

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actually see the typical mining activities above ground. It is a

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very clever design. I think it is overwhelmingly positive, economic

:48:39.:48:42.

leader and I do not accept that people will not visit the North

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Yorkshire Moors because of this facility. Stephen Hughes, the North

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East has a history of mining, but it is history, does it lead mines for

:48:50.:48:55.

the 20th -- for the 21st century? Two we have always had a play-off

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between jobs and the environment. That has been so for many years.

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had a good environment and good jobs. One thing to take into account

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is the European habitats directive, in terms of environmental impact

:49:13.:49:18.

assessment. Other important issues might be visibility, but it might

:49:18.:49:23.

have an impact on the water table, he could have a profound effect on

:49:23.:49:28.

the flora and fauna and the habitat generally. It is hard to turn down

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that number of jobs. That is the dilemma. There might be some

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environmental concerns, but the jobs are very important. You have to bear

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in mind as well that this is an international interest. The flora

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and fauna, there are some rare flora and fauna in the North York is and

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we have a responsible to to protect them as well. Would you accept that

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this is a concern, even if they make it look fine, they could be an

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impact on the environment that we cannot sell that just for the jobs.

:50:02.:50:10.

That these to be -- that needs to be properly assessed. I do not think

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there is the kind of impact that people might fear, for example,

:50:14.:50:18.

people who have seen opencast mining, this is nothing like that.

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We are talking about 1500 metres underground. And then up to just

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under the ground, then piped away. It will not the affecting the woods

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and moors around it at all. -- be affecting.

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The Prime Minister recently agreed a real terms cut in the European Union

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budget, that means inevitably there will be less you might share over

:50:41.:50:44.

the next few years. In the past, the European structural funds of hot

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paper project like the stadium might and the Baltic. But how much will

:50:50.:50:52.

the region get in the future? I have been finding out.

:50:52.:50:57.

You probably do not need me to tell you that this time along with buying

:50:57.:51:02.

any time soon. It is being recycled by a company based at Durham Tees

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Valley airport. The firm that would also have been grounded about almost

:51:06.:51:12.

�1 million of your money. -- you money. It has enabled us to invest

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in staff, we will have after completion of our funding, about

:51:17.:51:23.

eight full-time staff, probably about six subcontractors per

:51:23.:51:27.

aeroplane at any one time, that probably brings around 30 jobs into

:51:27.:51:32.

this building. More European funding is on the way. Between 2014 and

:51:32.:51:39.

2020, the area will get 406 to �5 billion. Tees Valley, 107 �5

:51:39.:51:46.

million. Cumbria, �78 million. Each will get a greater say over how it

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is spent. Crucial to those who are handing out the money. Locally

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delivered programmes can affect the particularities of the place where

:51:56.:52:00.

they are. That makes them much more appropriate for the businesses that

:52:00.:52:04.

are there, the entrepreneurs, the sorts of sectors being developed. It

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is critical in terms of the effectiveness of those businesses.

:52:09.:52:11.

The new funding might also follow the region to do more work like

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this. Welcome to what is gone to become a science centre in

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Newcastle, this 32 acre former brewery site is being transformed

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model of the biggest regeneration product and not a lovely guy. --

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products -- projects in the UK. But the part of EU money available could

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have been even bigger. The government has taken �675 million

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away from England's EU funding allocation and handed it to

:52:41.:52:44.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That means all nations face

:52:44.:52:49.

a 5% cut in grants. Has that left a gaping hole in the deal? Not

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according to some. We have to make streaming well, we have actually got

:52:54.:52:57.

about the same sum of money that came in the last round. -- we have

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done extremely well. Considering the changes that have happened, and

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everyone says is the North East is the richer economic competitiveness

:53:06.:53:10.

in Europe, we have done extremely well. European money has already

:53:10.:53:13.

left a legacy throughout the region. Have we really got the best deal

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available? Hard hat and the high viz vest is

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now compulsory uniform for reporters. Stephen Hughes, you have

:53:25.:53:29.

said the North East will miss out in favour of Scotland, explain why.

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Like -- the test on whether a region get EU funding is a calculation of

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what proportion that region has the average wealth of the nation.

:53:39.:53:44.

take the south of this region, Durham and the Tees Valley, it is

:53:44.:53:50.

less than 75% of the national average wealth. Scotland, 90%, so

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they should be getting much less. But the Secretary of State has

:53:54.:53:59.

creamed off part of the money from the English regions to distribute to

:53:59.:54:03.

Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland. As you have heard, almost

:54:03.:54:08.

200 million going to Scotland, when it is considerably better off in

:54:08.:54:12.

wealth terms than the North East. But those nations are facing 30%

:54:12.:54:20.

cuts. If you look at the level of wealth, the North East as a whole,

:54:20.:54:26.

including Tyne & Wear, has just over 75% of the average wealth of the

:54:26.:54:29.

nation has a whole. That is considerably less than Scotland. We

:54:29.:54:33.

have done a good job using European money, but we do need more. The job

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is not finished yet. This money could have been extremely useful.

:54:40.:54:44.

you share those concerns? I do, but you can see why the Government has

:54:44.:54:50.

decided to make those cuts. I think we should, as one of your reporters

:54:50.:54:55.

said, we should look on the price they, the North East has the most

:54:55.:54:58.

money in the country after London and Cornwall. -- look on the bright

:54:58.:55:02.

side. The Tees Valley has about the same as Sheffield or Liverpool.

:55:02.:55:06.

These are huge sums of money, recognising the needs of our area.

:55:06.:55:09.

The central Government is only taking 5% of the top of these

:55:09.:55:17.

amount, whereas the previous Government to 50% off the top.

:55:17.:55:20.

about the money to Scotland, it seems that of a coincidence with an

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independence referendum in the offing. It is only a confidence

:55:25.:55:27.

because they have done exactly the same prep in them, Scotland,

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Northern Ireland and Wales. The percentage cut is the same in all

:55:32.:55:35.

four nations. People want to spin that story about the effect is the

:55:35.:55:40.

same cut everywhere. You cannot pretend this isn't a good deal for

:55:40.:55:42.

the North East in terms of the amount of money coming year compared

:55:42.:55:47.

to other parts of England and the UK. Given our relative poverty, we

:55:47.:55:51.

should have had more. The only reason we are going to get any money

:55:51.:55:56.

at all is because we got transitional region status. Our own

:55:56.:56:01.

Government did not support that. They opposed it. A settlement was

:56:01.:56:07.

reached at European level. But the majority were in favour.

:56:07.:56:10.

At least 6000 people in the North East including many shopworkers are

:56:10.:56:13.

on what is called zero hours contracts. That is where the

:56:13.:56:17.

employee is not guaranteed any work but is effectively on-call. This

:56:17.:56:21.

week, Sunderland MP questioned the rise in the number of such contracts

:56:21.:56:25.

within the NHS. With that, and the rest of the week's little news,

:56:25.:56:34.

here's Mark Denten. Proposals are 21,000 new homes in

:56:34.:56:39.

Newcastle by 2030 Abbey published in a plan. 6000 will be built on the

:56:40.:56:43.

green belt. There will be a public enquiry next year bottle by

:56:43.:56:45.

deliveries in Gateshead have been taken over by volunteers of the

:56:45.:56:48.

council said it cannot afford to run them. The council has also scrapped

:56:48.:56:55.

plans to compensate... Thousands of NHS are losing out on climate rights

:56:55.:56:59.

because they are on zero hours contracts. Julie Elliott told the

:56:59.:57:03.

debate it had a detrimental impact on the lives of many workers. Like

:57:03.:57:07.

the disruption to family life is a result of frequent short notice

:57:07.:57:10.

requirements to work. It makes so many things, from arranging

:57:10.:57:14.

childcare to doing the weekly shopping, nearly impossible to

:57:14.:57:18.

plan. North East MPs are calling propulsive to resolve the dispute on

:57:18.:57:22.

the Tyne & Wear Metro, they will -- the one staff to be given up living

:57:23.:57:27.

wage. And Lord Campbell savours is to be greater on the colour of the

:57:27.:57:37.
:57:37.:57:39.

University of Canberra. -- Cumbria. Ian Swales, we can talk but the zero

:57:39.:57:42.

hours contract, hospitals and Sunderland, Gateshead, Hartlepool,

:57:42.:57:47.

both Cumbria, they are among those using them. They say it is about

:57:47.:57:51.

being as flexible as possible -- as possible. It needs looking at. The

:57:51.:57:55.

previous Government looked at it and concluded they should not do

:57:55.:58:00.

anything. There has been a gross and I think it is time to look at it

:58:00.:58:03.

again. I cannot say I have had a single constituent raised the issue

:58:04.:58:09.

with me although I have had care workers raised the issue of reach of

:58:09.:58:12.

the minimum wage regulations in terms of not being paid for their

:58:12.:58:15.

travel time between calls, that is something I have taken up with the

:58:15.:58:21.

minister. Is it a way of avoiding honouring workers' writes two that

:58:21.:58:28.

is what needs looking at. Let's member, some people want these, this

:58:28.:58:31.

kind of flexibility because it sees their lifestyle, students for

:58:31.:58:38.

example. One key question is, is the flexibility to way, or are people

:58:38.:58:41.

actually being abused, because they are expected to be factual but do

:58:41.:58:46.

not have the effect that might flexibility in return two I cannot

:58:46.:58:49.

imagine you are a great fan of this, but this is the real world for

:58:49.:58:52.

many workers. It means they get work when perhaps they would not do

:58:52.:59:01.

otherwise. We need to regularise all forms of contract. We introduced the

:59:01.:59:05.

directive on part-time work, fixed term contract work, agency work. My

:59:06.:59:11.

own government opposed them, I have today -- I have to say. The UK

:59:11.:59:17.

Labour market and to devise a body is going to hell and handcart. This

:59:17.:59:21.

is a major source of abuse of these workers. I have had workers come to

:59:21.:59:23.

me who are required to be there early in the morning, stayed till

:59:23.:59:27.

late at night, eight times during the day unpaid, that is in breach of

:59:27.:59:33.

the minimum pay regulations. -- break times. Is this happening

:59:33.:59:39.

across Europe? We are seeing various forms of flexibility emerging in all

:59:39.:59:43.

of the markets. I think it is part of the rest of the body, it has to

:59:43.:59:48.

stop. People deserve a decent contract of work. I think in the

:59:48.:59:51.

health service, this is causing major disruption, dislocation in the

:59:51.:59:56.

care of patients. They do not know who has gone to turn up to take care

:59:56.:00:04.

of them. Some of these arrangements are already illegal. The thing that

:00:04.:00:07.

keeps them asleep at night if they know a lot of the members are

:00:07.:00:13.

actually breaching the minimum wage regulations. I think it is really

:00:13.:00:17.

important that people who feel abused in that way report the

:00:17.:00:23.

situation. What can the Government do? Can they stop it happening? A

:00:23.:00:30.

lot of these contracts are not illegal. There are many types of

:00:30.:00:34.

contracts out there, some will be fine, some, people will want. But

:00:34.:00:38.

there are others which you could argue are a form of reviews. For

:00:38.:00:42.

example, having to be on-call at home and disrupt life without

:00:42.:00:47.

knowing whether you are going to get work or not. Or being told that you

:00:47.:00:51.

have a job and then finding it in a whole week you do not earn any

:00:51.:00:56.

money. Would you accept it is better to do these contracts and save money

:00:56.:01:00.

for the NHS to spend on patients rather than staff? You have to bear

:01:00.:01:05.

in mind, the rights of the people working in these jobs as well. They

:01:05.:01:10.

have a right to a decent contract, decent life. They have been deprived

:01:10.:01:14.

of that. That is unacceptable. you very much.

:01:14.:01:21.

That's about all from us, but before we leave for the beach, a reminder

:01:21.:01:24.

of my blog and Twitter address on the screen now. The you can keep

:01:24.:01:29.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate including energy and climate change secretary Ed Davey on whether it is time to think again about global warming.


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