30/03/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


30/03/2014

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With energy and climate change secretary Ed Davey and Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael.


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Transcript


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:41.

Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or

:00:42.:00:45.

the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the

:00:46.:00:49.

Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better

:00:50.:00:52.

Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish

:00:53.:00:57.

Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?

:00:58.:01:00.

in the north`east and Cumbrha we as They could be

:01:01.:01:10.

in the north`east and Cumbrha we as the Scottish Nationalists if

:01:11.:01:13.

independence as a threat or an opportunity to

:01:14.:01:14.

which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political

:01:15.:01:18.

move designed to silence his critics.

:01:19.:01:24.

And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the

:01:25.:01:28.

business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.

:01:29.:01:33.

But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest

:01:34.:01:37.

and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,

:01:38.:01:45.

Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:46.:01:51.

Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been

:01:52.:01:54.

unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the

:01:55.:01:57.

rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister

:01:58.:02:02.

spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the

:02:03.:02:07.

Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence

:02:08.:02:11.

campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when

:02:12.:02:15.

the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were

:02:16.:02:20.

going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that

:02:21.:02:23.

campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in

:02:24.:02:25.

Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.

:02:26.:02:36.

Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no

:02:37.:02:42.

campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have

:02:43.:02:50.

got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have

:02:51.:02:55.

got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we

:02:56.:03:00.

are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the

:03:01.:03:05.

possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think

:03:06.:03:09.

that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it

:03:10.:03:12.

against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a

:03:13.:03:16.

detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England

:03:17.:03:20.

Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would

:03:21.:03:24.

not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the

:03:25.:03:28.

permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is

:03:29.:03:32.

such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with

:03:33.:03:36.

it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the

:03:37.:03:42.

force of argument is very much against those of us who want to

:03:43.:03:46.

remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the

:03:47.:03:50.

day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a

:03:51.:03:54.

deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is

:03:55.:03:58.

nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 0

:03:59.:04:04.

years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in

:04:05.:04:07.

Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the

:04:08.:04:11.

UK. That is perfectly plausible isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is

:04:12.:04:18.

simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.

:04:19.:04:21.

What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials

:04:22.:04:25.

saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of

:04:26.:04:29.

England Wales, Northern Ireland any more than it is in the interests of

:04:30.:04:36.

people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not

:04:37.:04:43.

change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?

:04:44.:04:50.

I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe

:04:51.:04:54.

Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish

:04:55.:04:58.

Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not

:04:59.:05:02.

sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from

:05:03.:05:06.

Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have

:05:07.:05:11.

not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the

:05:12.:05:15.

questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too

:05:16.:05:27.

negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found

:05:28.:05:29.

you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,

:05:30.:05:33.

isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the

:05:34.:05:37.

people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes

:05:38.:05:43.

there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing

:05:44.:05:48.

a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which

:05:49.:05:55.

actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come

:05:56.:05:59.

September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to

:06:00.:06:02.

say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of

:06:03.:06:07.

the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll

:06:08.:06:13.

said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the

:06:14.:06:18.

don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you

:06:19.:06:23.

yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act

:06:24.:06:27.

together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,

:06:28.:06:33.

to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists

:06:34.:06:37.

could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the

:06:38.:06:41.

United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the

:06:42.:06:45.

polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,

:06:46.:06:49.

they think this will not happen It can happen. I have got to tell

:06:50.:07:05.

everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an

:07:06.:07:07.

enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their

:07:08.:07:10.

disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in

:07:11.:07:12.

football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what

:07:13.:07:17.

is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in

:07:18.:07:21.

place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.

:07:22.:07:28.

Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know

:07:29.:07:35.

what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to

:07:36.:07:41.

blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there

:07:42.:07:46.

will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.

:07:47.:07:53.

But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the

:07:54.:07:56.

deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls

:07:57.:08:00.

which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite

:08:01.:08:03.

rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down

:08:04.:08:09.

the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year not

:08:10.:08:12.

just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy

:08:13.:08:16.

negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving

:08:17.:08:21.

places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen

:08:22.:08:25.

then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts

:08:26.:08:29.

about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising

:08:30.:08:33.

that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow

:08:34.:08:37.

Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary

:08:38.:08:43.

union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in

:08:44.:08:47.

a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear

:08:48.:08:50.

submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,

:08:51.:08:56.

probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think

:08:57.:09:00.

whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If

:09:01.:09:04.

the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the

:09:05.:09:09.

currency because it is not in London's interests to have a

:09:10.:09:12.

rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not

:09:13.:09:16.

done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is

:09:17.:09:27.

different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on

:09:28.:09:30.

the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without

:09:31.:09:34.

any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if

:09:35.:09:38.

the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except

:09:39.:09:43.

it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go

:09:44.:09:49.

down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the

:09:50.:09:52.

financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would

:09:53.:09:56.

rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary

:09:57.:09:59.

of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much

:10:00.:10:03.

money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major

:10:04.:10:06.

parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is

:10:07.:10:11.

bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think

:10:12.:10:14.

that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex

:10:15.:10:19.

Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big

:10:20.:10:23.

establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my

:10:24.:10:30.

football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no

:10:31.:10:37.

vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left

:10:38.:10:42.

which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex

:10:43.:10:46.

Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding

:10:47.:10:53.

from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being

:10:54.:10:56.

incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not

:10:57.:11:00.

want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of

:11:01.:11:03.

million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a

:11:04.:11:07.

bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's

:11:08.:11:10.

very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.

:11:11.:11:18.

High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six

:11:19.:11:26.

energy companies account for 95 of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem

:11:27.:11:33.

said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price

:11:34.:11:38.

rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets

:11:39.:11:40.

authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken

:11:41.:11:45.

up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica

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made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if

:11:50.:11:53.

you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare

:11:54.:11:58.

margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a

:11:59.:12:02.

surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to

:12:03.:12:08.

historically low levels in 2016 according to Ofgem. Normally at

:12:09.:12:13.

around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that

:12:14.:12:18.

could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light

:12:19.:12:22.

switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me

:12:23.:12:28.

now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak

:12:29.:12:36.

winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2

:12:37.:12:41.

next winter or the winter after We will keep the lights on, that is for

:12:42.:12:46.

clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.

:12:47.:12:50.

The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day

:12:51.:12:54.

one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been

:12:55.:13:02.

billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now

:13:03.:13:06.

heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have

:13:07.:13:11.

been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,

:13:12.:13:16.

we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are

:13:17.:13:19.

showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done

:13:20.:13:24.

enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate

:13:25.:13:30.

huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline

:13:31.:13:33.

investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.

:13:34.:13:37.

None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter

:13:38.:13:42.

or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,

:13:43.:13:50.

or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.

:13:51.:13:57.

It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing

:13:58.:14:01.

anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are

:14:02.:14:06.

able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are

:14:07.:14:10.

connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we

:14:11.:14:16.

get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.

:14:17.:14:22.

You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last

:14:23.:14:28.

July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would

:14:29.:14:33.

not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on

:14:34.:14:40.

schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a

:14:41.:14:44.

single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the

:14:45.:14:51.

ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do

:14:52.:14:57.

an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of

:14:58.:15:01.

interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.

:15:02.:15:04.

There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that

:15:05.:15:08.

can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take

:15:09.:15:12.

and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.

:15:13.:15:17.

We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision

:15:18.:15:33.

will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North

:15:34.:15:35.

America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed

:15:36.:15:38.

plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a

:15:39.:15:47.

problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from

:15:48.:15:54.

2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be

:15:55.:15:57.

so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was

:15:58.:16:02.

cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've

:16:03.:16:05.

known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of

:16:06.:16:09.

their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to

:16:10.:16:12.

increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are

:16:13.:16:20.

closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you

:16:21.:16:23.

have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are

:16:24.:16:27.

coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased

:16:28.:16:31.

the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under

:16:32.:16:34.

the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the

:16:35.:16:39.

beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are

:16:40.:16:46.

historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a

:16:47.:16:51.

huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins

:16:52.:16:56.

between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is

:16:57.:17:02.

costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People

:17:03.:17:06.

have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a

:17:07.:17:10.

short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a

:17:11.:17:14.

long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between

:17:15.:17:15.

nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between

:17:16.:17:39.

on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has

:17:40.:17:47.

increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the

:17:48.:17:55.

report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been

:17:56.:17:59.

working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we

:18:00.:18:04.

have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on

:18:05.:18:08.

if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but

:18:09.:18:14.

demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to

:18:15.:18:18.

off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,

:18:19.:18:22.

and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the

:18:23.:18:26.

Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks

:18:27.:18:30.

for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around

:18:31.:18:33.

for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to

:18:34.:18:39.

expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into

:18:40.:18:42.

haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,

:18:43.:18:50.

dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at

:18:51.:18:55.

the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range

:18:56.:19:05.

of power companies who are building a new power station and want to

:19:06.:19:09.

build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100

:19:10.:19:13.

billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore

:19:14.:19:17.

capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the

:19:18.:19:21.

Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to

:19:22.:19:26.

expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We

:19:27.:19:31.

have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is

:19:32.:19:36.

happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say

:19:37.:19:41.

it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we

:19:42.:19:45.

have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at

:19:46.:19:50.

independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to

:19:51.:19:54.

invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore

:19:55.:19:57.

wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only

:19:58.:20:00.

countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker

:20:01.:20:05.

picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an

:20:06.:20:10.

investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.

:20:11.:20:15.

Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,

:20:16.:20:20.

only one started under your watch for the others were done under

:20:21.:20:23.

Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled

:20:24.:20:28.

back from further investment including new offshore wind

:20:29.:20:31.

investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020

:20:32.:20:36.

anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,

:20:37.:20:40.

the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I

:20:41.:20:44.

capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20,

:20:45.:20:51.

so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have

:20:52.:20:54.

no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.

:20:55.:20:59.

Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones

:21:00.:21:04.

you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a

:21:05.:21:08.

short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan

:21:09.:21:13.

auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed

:21:14.:21:16.

plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term

:21:17.:21:22.

plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be

:21:23.:21:26.

built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's

:21:27.:21:30.

a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more

:21:31.:21:35.

expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap

:21:36.:21:38.

energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices

:21:39.:21:44.

is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You

:21:45.:21:51.

have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.

:21:52.:22:02.

All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low

:22:03.:22:11.

Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the

:22:12.:22:16.

last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys

:22:17.:22:20.

prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the

:22:21.:22:24.

Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the

:22:25.:22:28.

time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas

:22:29.:22:32.

could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by

:22:33.:22:35.

the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per

:22:36.:22:41.

megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.

:22:42.:22:50.

Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,

:22:51.:22:53.

Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is

:22:54.:22:57.

an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power

:22:58.:23:01.

plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices

:23:02.:23:06.

except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations

:23:07.:23:11.

paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper

:23:12.:23:14.

carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's

:23:15.:23:20.

very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the

:23:21.:23:24.

pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in

:23:25.:23:29.

May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.

:23:30.:23:34.

You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure

:23:35.:23:39.

is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the

:23:40.:23:45.

first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.

:23:46.:23:52.

If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their

:23:53.:23:58.

partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about

:23:59.:24:04.

lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than

:24:05.:24:10.

the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are

:24:11.:24:15.

targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that

:24:16.:24:19.

that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say

:24:20.:24:24.

that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few

:24:25.:24:28.

years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a

:24:29.:24:33.

single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s

:24:34.:24:38.

what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in

:24:39.:24:43.

technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in

:24:44.:24:46.

mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were

:24:47.:24:55.

clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put

:24:56.:25:00.

the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on

:25:01.:25:04.

investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will

:25:05.:25:10.

guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't

:25:11.:25:14.

that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two

:25:15.:25:19.

separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply

:25:20.:25:23.

retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale

:25:24.:25:28.

side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are

:25:29.:25:32.

comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to

:25:33.:25:38.

do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,

:25:39.:25:41.

there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we

:25:42.:25:49.

haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever

:25:50.:25:54.

happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the

:25:55.:25:58.

verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going

:25:59.:26:02.

nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press

:26:03.:26:04.

officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains

:26:05.:26:07.

some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had

:26:08.:26:10.

a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats

:26:11.:26:14.

in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest

:26:15.:26:17.

party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite

:26:18.:26:20.

concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote

:26:21.:26:32.

increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as

:26:33.:26:35.

anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and

:26:36.:26:38.

forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is

:26:39.:26:43.

that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,

:26:44.:26:46.

electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.

:26:47.:26:56.

For a number of years they were performing better than the UK

:26:57.:26:59.

Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.

:27:00.:27:03.

The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other

:27:04.:27:05.

groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't

:27:06.:27:10.

go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party

:27:11.:27:13.

was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have

:27:14.:27:19.

known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won

:27:20.:27:22.

12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour

:27:23.:27:25.

council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing

:27:26.:27:34.

concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different

:27:35.:27:37.

nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over

:27:38.:27:41.

everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I

:27:42.:27:47.

would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here

:27:48.:27:53.

When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a

:27:54.:27:57.

second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find

:27:58.:28:02.

non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even

:28:03.:28:05.

though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white

:28:06.:28:10.

working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent

:28:11.:28:14.

everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On

:28:15.:28:21.

behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,

:28:22.:28:26.

that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local

:28:27.:28:30.

Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we

:28:31.:28:38.

could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the

:28:39.:28:41.

council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.

:28:42.:28:44.

But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour

:28:45.:28:48.

vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the

:28:49.:28:52.

same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years

:28:53.:29:00.

ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing

:29:01.:29:04.

around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and

:29:05.:29:08.

stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now

:29:09.:29:12.

it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.

:29:13.:29:17.

If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not

:29:18.:29:21.

in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.

:29:22.:29:26.

I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say

:29:27.:29:30.

in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist

:29:31.:29:34.

but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of

:29:35.:29:39.

UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the

:29:40.:29:42.

party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is

:29:43.:29:51.

closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose

:29:52.:29:53.

amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were

:29:54.:30:10.

thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his

:30:11.:30:14.

appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP

:30:15.:30:17.

something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.

:30:18.:30:27.

This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John

:30:28.:30:33.

Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He

:30:34.:30:37.

went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some

:30:38.:30:40.

voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here

:30:41.:30:44.

has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins

:30:45.:30:52.

me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you

:30:53.:30:56.

had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on

:30:57.:31:02.

the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is

:31:03.:31:08.

very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The

:31:09.:31:12.

main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country

:31:13.:31:19.

faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European

:31:20.:31:24.

elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were

:31:25.:31:34.

denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take

:31:35.:31:39.

place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer

:31:40.:31:44.

movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL

:31:45.:31:52.

is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not

:31:53.:31:58.

a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took

:31:59.:32:02.

a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this

:32:03.:32:08.

stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless

:32:09.:32:13.

promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on

:32:14.:32:16.

this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.

:32:17.:32:22.

Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will

:32:23.:32:27.

probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across

:32:28.:32:32.

Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I

:32:33.:32:38.

reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and

:32:39.:32:56.

Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are

:32:57.:33:01.

on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I

:33:02.:33:05.

was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party

:33:06.:33:10.

did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and

:33:11.:33:14.

Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was

:33:15.:33:17.

true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader

:33:18.:33:23.

who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy

:33:24.:33:29.

No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is

:33:30.:33:35.

irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs

:33:36.:33:41.

and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the

:33:42.:33:46.

European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose

:33:47.:33:54.

seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far

:33:55.:34:00.

right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin

:34:01.:34:11.

appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is

:34:12.:34:16.

part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with

:34:17.:34:23.

them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am

:34:24.:34:27.

perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible

:34:28.:34:32.

reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when

:34:33.:34:36.

will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely

:34:37.:34:43.

for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and

:34:44.:34:50.

self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to

:34:51.:34:56.

Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in

:34:57.:35:02.

Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just

:35:03.:35:06.

an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is

:35:07.:35:12.

completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the

:35:13.:35:17.

polls, performance at elections the problem with your leadership is you

:35:18.:35:22.

are now going the way of the National front, heading for

:35:23.:35:26.

oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the

:35:27.:35:31.

problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years

:35:32.:35:36.

ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not

:35:37.:35:41.

around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a

:35:42.:35:45.

prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.

:35:46.:35:49.

That will lead to huge problems Only the British National Party are

:35:50.:35:53.

prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing

:35:54.:35:58.

this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how

:35:59.:36:03.

irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New

:36:04.:36:08.

Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would

:36:09.:36:13.

turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they

:36:14.:36:17.

put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of

:36:18.:36:21.

bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.

:36:22.:36:24.

You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in

:36:25.:36:27.

Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here

:36:28.:36:47.

Hello and the warmest of welcomes. Coming up fear deep's work for every

:36:48.:36:56.

day's they. Is a living wagd of ?7 65 an hour something the businesses

:36:57.:37:00.

in the region afford? I will ask their wrecked some MP. Would an

:37:01.:37:08.

independent Scotland be a threat or an opportunity? The SNP spe`k to us

:37:09.:37:14.

from Edinburgh. First, how luch does Labour agree with the coalition

:37:15.:37:21.

off`line on welfare? The region s MP did vote to put a cap on well first

:37:22.:37:33.

bending. `` welfare spending. There were some rebels who disagrde on

:37:34.:37:37.

putting a limit on welfare spending. Graham Morris, yot were

:37:38.:37:41.

there not for the vote, but she would have joined Labour rebels You

:37:42.:37:53.

said voting for this dude `` showed that you could be trusted whth

:37:54.:37:58.

public money. The idea of their benefit cap is built on a ntmber of

:37:59.:38:04.

myths. It is extremely divisive The idea that somehow people on benefits

:38:05.:38:10.

are being demonised by the present government, a suggestion solehow

:38:11.:38:13.

they are immune from what is happening, is not the case. Benefits

:38:14.:38:21.

have been capped at 1% incrdase When you take into account hnflation

:38:22.:38:28.

at two x 7% and lost of livhng rises and fuel, people on benefits are

:38:29.:38:33.

struggling to make ends meet. `` 2.7%. There is a number of ways we

:38:34.:38:39.

could balance the budget. In relation to housing benefit, which I

:38:40.:38:43.

think we should call the Lord benefit. The housing benefit bill

:38:44.:38:47.

has been increasing dramatically. `` landlord benefit. That is bdcause

:38:48.:38:55.

there are not any rent controls or rent caps. Rents in the private

:38:56.:39:00.

sector are growing dramatic`lly Those in receipt of housing

:39:01.:39:04.

benefit, the majority of whom are in work, are calling on greater support

:39:05.:39:09.

from public funds. A few rebels apart, Labour MPs did vote for a

:39:10.:39:18.

cap. They have opposed everx cut to spending throughout the Parliament

:39:19.:39:23.

from 2010 to 2014. You have got to be frank here as Graham said, he

:39:24.:39:28.

does not agree with his own party leader. The bottom line is theirs,

:39:29.:39:32.

they would like to keep spending more and more money. The public can

:39:33.:39:37.

have no trust and anybody who is saying that they would keep spending

:39:38.:39:41.

on welfare, keep spending on benefits and circumstances when we

:39:42.:39:45.

are to balance the books. Wd will have to move on in that state. We

:39:46.:39:50.

will have to disagree. There is a little under six months

:39:51.:39:56.

ago on whether Scotland dechde on whether to become an independent

:39:57.:40:02.

country or not. MPs in the region put their arguments against the case

:40:03.:40:05.

on whether they should becole independent or not. They met the

:40:06.:40:12.

late `` Labour leadership in the Scottish Parliament. Labour is

:40:13.:40:17.

offering the Scottish Parli`ment more powers over taxation if they

:40:18.:40:22.

stay within the UK. Some fe`r greater devolution will put the

:40:23.:40:25.

North East and Cumbria at a disadvantage when it comes to

:40:26.:40:31.

attracting jobs. Bridget rejects and says risks come from an inddpendent

:40:32.:40:37.

Scotland. My concern is what Scotland would become separ`te from

:40:38.:40:41.

the rest of the United Kingdom. That could have an impact on jobs in the

:40:42.:40:47.

North East. I think it is ilportant that we recognise the benefhts in

:40:48.:40:50.

the north eased of Scotland as being part of the United Kingdom, the

:40:51.:40:54.

shared industry and history that we have, and look on that relationship

:40:55.:41:02.

and build on it than separate it. Christine Grahame is an SNP member

:41:03.:41:05.

of the Scottish Parliament `nd she is in Edinburgh for us now. MPs in

:41:06.:41:11.

the North East say we should be scared of an independent Scotland.

:41:12.:41:17.

We will be your best friend. First of all, I am sure your listdners

:41:18.:41:22.

will appreciate, it is a matter for the people of Scotland to ddcide

:41:23.:41:25.

whether they want to be inddpendent or otherwise. I think that `n

:41:26.:41:30.

independent Scotland is takhng full control over its affairs, bdcause we

:41:31.:41:36.

have taken control of our domestic affairs for 15 years, will be an

:41:37.:41:41.

ally of the North of England, because many of the problems of the

:41:42.:41:44.

North of England are reflected in the problems in Scotland. I think we

:41:45.:41:48.

will liberate the North of Dngland to making sure that they thdmselves

:41:49.:41:52.

will be set about having more power, perhaps in the North of England

:41:53.:41:57.

assembly. A Scottish governlent would be delighted if they topped ``

:41:58.:42:03.

took jobs that could have gone to the North East of Scotland. That is

:42:04.:42:10.

your aim? Scotland has suffdred from this union for a very long time as

:42:11.:42:15.

has a lot of England. The dhfference for us is that we are a nathon, we

:42:16.:42:20.

have our own Parliament, we are in a position to do something about it

:42:21.:42:24.

and becoming independent as a way to do something about it. Therd is also

:42:25.:42:30.

competition there. Scotland would be delighted if it got jobs th`t could

:42:31.:42:36.

have gone to the North eased. `` North East. I think the North

:42:37.:42:43.

East's problems out with thd size of England. `` the South of England. It

:42:44.:42:49.

is not with problem, it is with the South. That is where there `re

:42:50.:42:54.

problems come from. You would like to cut corporation tax, cut airport

:42:55.:42:58.

duty. You want to make yourselves more competitive than the North of

:42:59.:43:04.

England? There is nothing to stop the rest of the UK doing wh`t an

:43:05.:43:08.

independent Scotland wants to do. That would be a matter for the

:43:09.:43:13.

government. In your view, the North of England and Scotland can make

:43:14.:43:21.

Common Cause? Even now I know that people in Berwick which is close to

:43:22.:43:25.

the edges of my constituencx and look to the benefits that ddvolution

:43:26.:43:30.

has brought Scotland. We have no prescription charges, we have no

:43:31.:43:34.

tuition fees, we have free personal care for the elderly, these are

:43:35.:43:39.

things that the Scottish Parliament have done that I think are socially

:43:40.:43:44.

just. I know that people close to the Scottish border can see that.

:43:45.:43:47.

The challenge for the North of England is to make sure that the

:43:48.:43:51.

North of England people get what Scotland as an they could ghve

:43:52.:43:55.

themselves the power to do that Thank you very much for that.

:43:56.:44:05.

SNP voters `` will hope that voters will plump for independence. What

:44:06.:44:14.

will the borders look like? The government has hinted there might be

:44:15.:44:16.

border checkpoints to control immigration, claimed as

:44:17.:44:23.

scaremongering by nationalists. There could be two sets of

:44:24.:44:29.

currencies and two different nationalities.

:44:30.:44:33.

I am driving into another country, there is no passport control,

:44:34.:44:40.

nothing. This is the intern`tional border between the United Khngdom

:44:41.:44:45.

that way and the Republic of Ireland just down there. Only the road signs

:44:46.:44:49.

give you a clue that you have crossed into the Republic of

:44:50.:44:52.

Ireland. With less than six months to Scotland's referendum, wd could

:44:53.:44:59.

have one too. What lessons can we win from here? This family shopping

:45:00.:45:04.

in a town close to the borddr. The shirts give you a clue of their

:45:05.:45:10.

mixed roots. The closeness of the border means he carries a collection

:45:11.:45:19.

of different currencies. Yot come into a shop like this, what you see

:45:20.:45:24.

is that you will get the Sthrling prize and the euro price on the

:45:25.:45:30.

goods. You can pay for that in sterling or euros. Supporters of

:45:31.:45:34.

Scotland yesterday and say they would keep the pound. The government

:45:35.:45:39.

say they cannot. If Scotland does Gratz Durling, he says therd are

:45:40.:45:48.

lessons here for our governlent ` `` scrap sterling. You could do the

:45:49.:46:01.

same thing if we had an inddpendent Scotland? If the adapt themselves

:46:02.:46:07.

and when the exchange rate hs the right way round, they have ` great

:46:08.:46:11.

of virginity. We are back in Newcastle. We are Northern Hreland,

:46:12.:46:20.

just up the road from the Rdpublic, but this man does most of hhs

:46:21.:46:24.

business elsewhere. He does not like dealing into currencies. Thdre is

:46:25.:46:29.

trouble with getting euros converted everyday if you were going to do the

:46:30.:46:36.

trade that way. It is easier to deal with UK`based companies on `

:46:37.:46:42.

sterling basis. They did no business south of the border ten years ago.

:46:43.:46:48.

In terms of currency fluctu`tions, if we put in for some busindss, we

:46:49.:46:53.

can end up cheaper across`the`board. That helps us win

:46:54.:46:59.

new business. When we are btying materials and from across the

:47:00.:47:02.

border, it can be cheaper for us to buy. This creates a thousand jobs a

:47:03.:47:09.

year. Business leaders say `n independent Scotland could be

:47:10.:47:13.

Stourbridge and in the same way My advice is not to fear this border.

:47:14.:47:19.

Very often we take things for ranted. It could present an

:47:20.:47:28.

virginity itself. `` and opportunity itself.

:47:29.:47:33.

A new international border light not mean border guards as well. It could

:47:34.:47:39.

provide a virginity is for some and extra costs for others.

:47:40.:47:45.

There is free movement, no guards. There would be a significant change.

:47:46.:47:51.

Clearly it is a matter for the Scots people to decide. I believe we have

:47:52.:48:01.

done everything from beating our common foes together. There is no

:48:02.:48:11.

need for a press of border controls. Your government is scaring people

:48:12.:48:19.

into believing that is true. There is looser immigration controls. They

:48:20.:48:24.

would need to negotiate with all youth team `` 28 European

:48:25.:48:31.

countries. Are you going to insist on there being border guards? An

:48:32.:48:36.

independent Scotland is different from an Irish country which is part

:48:37.:48:41.

of the EU. There is a different arrangement and they would have to

:48:42.:48:45.

negotiate that arrangement. That is no done deal. Other leaders have

:48:46.:48:48.

made it clear they would not be so welcome. That is to be disptted

:48:49.:48:57.

Here you have MPs saying we are fine with devolution for Scotland. If

:48:58.:49:00.

Scotland decides to vote no in this referendum. Would businesses be

:49:01.:49:08.

worried about it? I have a lot in common politically, his str`w

:49:09.:49:13.

industrially with Scotland than with other parts of England. ``

:49:14.:49:23.

historically, industrially. My concern is that particularlx in

:49:24.:49:27.

terms of what the economic hmpact will be for my region and the people

:49:28.:49:35.

I represent. Does it matter if it is independence or devolution? Yes it

:49:36.:49:41.

does. If it is the intention of the independent Scotland to abolish the

:49:42.:49:46.

airport duty, if it is their intention to reduce corporation tax,

:49:47.:49:50.

we could find ourselves at ` race to the bottom. I think that wotld be

:49:51.:49:58.

nine interests. That is up to the North of England to sort out and

:49:59.:50:03.

lobby London for that power up year. Labour have not made any proposals

:50:04.:50:08.

to devolve the North East of England. We would be disadv`ntaged

:50:09.:50:14.

if an independent Scotland dmbarked upon a policy of trying to `ttract

:50:15.:50:19.

in word investment at her expense. In terms of what we could do to

:50:20.:50:23.

counter that there is the formation of a strategic association of seven

:50:24.:50:30.

local authorities. The hope is that they will have more power and

:50:31.:50:34.

resources to address some of the historic deficiencies about the lack

:50:35.:50:41.

of transport infrastructure in the North East of England. The reality

:50:42.:50:45.

is if you are not admitted hnto the EU as was said, there may h`ve to be

:50:46.:50:50.

border controls because your immigration policy may be dhfferent.

:50:51.:50:57.

I appreciate, I hope I am not insulting MPs south of the border,

:50:58.:51:01.

but we have heard this for xears. I know some are joining the ddbate on

:51:02.:51:08.

independence. It is a nonsense that Scotland would not be part of the

:51:09.:51:12.

European Union. We have been citizens of it for decades. Much of

:51:13.:51:17.

it is absorbed into our law. We are a huge producer of oil and gas. I do

:51:18.:51:24.

believe Europe does not want to turn its back on these assets. I think,

:51:25.:51:28.

this is another part of the scaremongering which we havd heard

:51:29.:51:33.

for months. Frankly it has been counter`productive. What yot have is

:51:34.:51:46.

practical, the same thing whll happen between England and

:51:47.:51:51.

Scotland, it is all scaremongering. As I say, keep doing it bec`use more

:51:52.:51:56.

and more Scots are determindd to vote yes the more this is s`id. You

:51:57.:52:02.

are driving Scots towards independence. I hope not. I hope it

:52:03.:52:09.

is very much the case that ht is a matter of the heart and head. The

:52:10.:52:15.

problem is for the North of England. Whatever happens in this

:52:16.:52:22.

referendum, more powers will head to Scotland independently. You offer

:52:23.:52:27.

nothing as a counter. Companies in the North East, just as thex showed

:52:28.:52:32.

in the film, they are perfectly able to compete. They could do bdtter

:52:33.:52:37.

than the Scottish companies who will be struggling with a more dhfficult

:52:38.:52:40.

financial situation after bdcoming independent. There is an impact and

:52:41.:52:46.

it would have potential problems to start with. I believe that the North

:52:47.:52:49.

East could compete well with Scotland if we were in compdtition.

:52:50.:52:55.

Thank you very much. Christhne Grahame, thank you very much.

:52:56.:52:59.

We have heard a lot about cost of living. If you are in work, how much

:53:00.:53:06.

do you need to make ends medt? The living wage is higher than the

:53:07.:53:11.

minimum wage which is currently ?6.31. A growing number of

:53:12.:53:15.

businesses in the North East of violence are decided to pay a higher

:53:16.:53:24.

rate. `` have voluntarily ddcided. Paying people a living wage means

:53:25.:53:32.

that people are putting out a better product of product. It is the right

:53:33.:53:40.

thing to do. Personally and morally, but it is the right thing to do for

:53:41.:53:45.

business. Several councils `lso support a living wage for their

:53:46.:53:50.

staff. But not everyone welcomes it. Some say they cannot afford it. My

:53:51.:53:56.

margin is not big enough to cover those wages at the moment. Ht is

:53:57.:54:04.

probably less than what I al getting an eye to 80 hours a week. What

:54:05.:54:08.

about the calls for other elployers to adopt this? I could not `fford to

:54:09.:54:17.

keep paying it. The money h`s got to come from somewhere.

:54:18.:54:23.

You support the living wage. You organise that conference. The market

:54:24.:54:32.

trader is right? On Friday we had this fantastic coming together of

:54:33.:54:40.

the living wage foundation, myself and various businesses coming

:54:41.:54:43.

together and celebrating and supporting and selling the living

:54:44.:54:48.

wage. There are no 20 companies who have registered. These stretch all

:54:49.:54:52.

across from housing as soon as the agents to significant big companies.

:54:53.:55:01.

Also third sector organisathons Can any company do this? Any colpany can

:55:02.:55:08.

do this. We have a tea shop that has signed up to it. Can I and so the

:55:09.:55:14.

point from the traders point of view. Productivity goes up. Your

:55:15.:55:19.

staff retention goes up. Yotr 6 s go down if you pay the living wage and

:55:20.:55:24.

the quality of the output from your staff goes up. Use weak to people

:55:25.:55:31.

like Barclays `` you speak to people like Barclays, people competed for

:55:32.:55:38.

those jobs and they enjoyed it. Is it not embarrassing that he has

:55:39.:55:45.

organised this conference and not yourself? We have had massive

:55:46.:55:54.

support across the Labour P`rty and across the trade unions that Britain

:55:55.:55:57.

needs a pay rise. I agree ddal to does. `` that it does. I do think

:55:58.:56:08.

that with the current cost`of`living crisis, that people are fachng

:56:09.:56:13.

everyday with energy bills... Private companies can make their own

:56:14.:56:19.

decisions, when it comes to public bodies, it will be the taxp`yer that

:56:20.:56:25.

funds the fees. Does the taxpayer not meet the shortfall anyw`y? How

:56:26.:56:30.

many people in work on low wages are having to claim housing bendfit or

:56:31.:56:39.

subsidised taxes? Should it be compulsory? I think we should move

:56:40.:56:46.

towards that. The question of where does the subsidy come from? Are we

:56:47.:56:52.

content as a nation to subshdise wages, because we do that as well,

:56:53.:56:59.

we do that through tax credhts, housing benefits. Some of the larger

:57:00.:57:04.

companies, the compulsion should be amongst larger enterprises who are

:57:05.:57:07.

well able to be a living wage who don't. Do people when the government

:57:08.:57:14.

`` argument or does it need compulsion? You do when the

:57:15.:57:18.

argument. There are more colpanies up and down the country comhng to

:57:19.:57:23.

believe there should be a lhving wage. Our conference was very small,

:57:24.:57:27.

there were only 20 accreditdd employers. They have built tp to 600

:57:28.:57:33.

across the country. Local authorities who have not opted have

:57:34.:57:38.

seen their sick rebates go down they have seen staff retenthon go up

:57:39.:57:42.

and people commit more to the business. George Osborne topped

:57:43.:57:47.

about raising the living wage, but did not raise it as much as he said

:57:48.:57:53.

he would. `` George Osborne spoke about. It was set by the low pay

:57:54.:58:01.

commission. Time to look at the other stories making the news.

:58:02.:58:14.

All in one minute tour. `` this one minute tour.

:58:15.:58:17.

Dozens of rural doctors surgeries and Cumbria are facing clostre

:58:18.:58:22.

according to one MP. He used a debate to provide ministers to

:58:23.:58:28.

provide extra help and warr`nt patient's safety was at risk.

:58:29.:58:36.

Staying with railways, Jennx Chapman has asked for guarantees th`t

:58:37.:58:41.

building HS2 will not mean put services on the these `` North East

:58:42.:58:47.

train line. They are delighted that people in Leeds will soon bd able to

:58:48.:58:53.

enjoy a good service, too. But they do not want it to happen at the

:58:54.:58:58.

expense of the North East m`inline. Can he commit that it will not be

:58:59.:59:04.

the case? We have new rolling stock for the North East mainline.

:59:05.:59:14.

There is a fire engine to bd lost at this fire station.

:59:15.:59:21.

That is about it from us. Wd have a special report looking for `

:59:22.:59:25.

Hillsborough style enquiry to the miners strike 30 years ago. For now,

:59:26.:59:31.

back to Andrew boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.

:59:32.:59:34.

Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.

:59:35.:59:42.

Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP

:59:43.:59:52.

finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin

:59:53.:59:55.

with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London

:59:56.:59:58.

about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs

:59:59.:00:02.

back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are

:00:03.:00:05.

falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National

:00:06.:00:09.

front in France is that they are building on decades of successful

:00:10.:00:12.

that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I

:00:13.:00:17.

think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics So

:00:18.:00:22.

they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly

:00:23.:00:31.

few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does

:00:32.:00:35.

seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but

:00:36.:00:42.

in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty

:00:43.:00:46.

far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local

:00:47.:00:52.

elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties

:00:53.:00:58.

prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream

:00:59.:01:02.

parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a

:01:03.:01:06.

council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is

:01:07.:01:09.

because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions

:01:10.:01:13.

in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of

:01:14.:01:18.

the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and

:01:19.:01:25.

left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot

:01:26.:01:30.

of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was

:01:31.:01:38.

here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and

:01:39.:01:46.

EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention

:01:47.:01:53.

that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act

:01:54.:01:58.

together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.

:01:59.:02:04.

I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes

:02:05.:02:08.

from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the

:02:09.:02:11.

difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front

:02:12.:02:18.

Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they

:02:19.:02:27.

were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200

:02:28.:02:33.

they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far

:02:34.:02:47.

right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.

:02:48.:02:51.

Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further

:02:52.:02:55.

across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a

:02:56.:03:08.

much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she

:03:09.:03:14.

will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will

:03:15.:03:17.

always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone

:03:18.:03:24.

for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential

:03:25.:03:29.

election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far

:03:30.:03:33.

right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.

:03:34.:03:37.

She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes

:03:38.:03:41.

from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who

:03:42.:03:47.

would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current

:03:48.:03:51.

president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties

:03:52.:03:55.

have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP

:03:56.:04:00.

are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at

:04:01.:04:04.

issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are

:04:05.:04:10.

quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes

:04:11.:04:15.

from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer

:04:16.:04:19.

for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are

:04:20.:04:24.

rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they

:04:25.:04:27.

become part of the system that people were voting against in the

:04:28.:04:32.

first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour

:04:33.:04:36.

Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday

:04:37.:04:40.

Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you

:04:41.:04:45.

are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the

:04:46.:04:50.

Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I

:04:51.:04:55.

have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record

:04:56.:04:59.

briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the

:05:00.:05:05.

mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been

:05:06.:05:12.

a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.

:05:13.:05:19.

There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and

:05:20.:05:26.

they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit

:05:27.:05:30.

still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the

:05:31.:05:34.

coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary

:05:35.:05:39.

changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.

:05:40.:05:42.

What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this

:05:43.:05:49.

has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a

:05:50.:05:53.

very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and

:05:54.:05:58.

then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The

:05:59.:06:03.

British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party

:06:04.:06:06.

political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people

:06:07.:06:12.

from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a

:06:13.:06:16.

bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being

:06:17.:06:21.

unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining

:06:22.:06:26.

characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a

:06:27.:06:30.

lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the

:06:31.:06:34.

budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the

:06:35.:06:37.

signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.

:06:38.:06:41.

The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has

:06:42.:06:47.

the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price

:06:48.:06:53.

freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these

:06:54.:06:57.

energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for

:06:58.:07:01.

that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up

:07:02.:07:04.

with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student

:07:05.:07:11.

tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price

:07:12.:07:14.

freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the

:07:15.:07:19.

Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming

:07:20.:07:26.

the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick

:07:27.:07:33.

through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in

:07:34.:07:39.

2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what

:07:40.:07:44.

campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the

:07:45.:07:48.

scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be

:07:49.:07:53.

winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was

:07:54.:07:57.

because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87

:07:58.:08:03.

or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What

:08:04.:08:06.

they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government

:08:07.:08:10.

because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or

:08:11.:08:14.

February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of

:08:15.:08:18.

animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must

:08:19.:08:24.

be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological

:08:25.:08:28.

differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how

:08:29.:08:34.

little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have

:08:35.:08:39.

outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he

:08:40.:08:45.

is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There

:08:46.:08:49.

was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And

:08:50.:08:55.

Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions

:08:56.:09:03.

is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those

:09:04.:09:08.

two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not

:09:09.:09:11.

done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed

:09:12.:09:16.

Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with

:09:17.:09:21.

the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the

:09:22.:09:25.

debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.

:09:26.:09:30.

We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s

:09:31.:09:34.

remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.

:09:35.:09:42.

I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...

:09:43.:09:50.

Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with

:09:51.:09:57.

you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the

:09:58.:10:06.

drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is

:10:07.:10:12.

simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I

:10:13.:10:18.

don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the

:10:19.:10:25.

facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better

:10:26.:10:31.

here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great

:10:32.:10:41.

not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.

:10:42.:10:46.

Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this

:10:47.:10:52.

week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate

:10:53.:10:56.

for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the

:10:57.:11:03.

other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult

:11:04.:11:08.

argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he

:11:09.:11:11.

distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just

:11:12.:11:15.

closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU

:11:16.:11:19.

immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away

:11:20.:11:24.

from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us

:11:25.:11:29.

to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his

:11:30.:11:35.

reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.

:11:36.:11:39.

I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage

:11:40.:11:46.

would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public

:11:47.:11:49.

favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question

:11:50.:11:58.

is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to

:11:59.:12:04.

that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a

:12:05.:12:10.

binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on

:12:11.:12:14.

opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg

:12:15.:12:18.

needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very

:12:19.:12:22.

well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he

:12:23.:12:28.

said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to

:12:29.:12:33.

talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had

:12:34.:12:35.

made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do

:12:36.:12:41.

not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,

:12:42.:12:44.

it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or

:12:45.:12:48.

without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and

:12:49.:12:51.

also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an

:12:52.:12:57.

hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but

:12:58.:13:04.

Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal

:13:05.:13:08.

with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has

:13:09.:13:13.

honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.

:13:14.:13:17.

That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime

:13:18.:13:21.

every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1

:13:22.:13:25.

o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:26.:13:32.

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