06/04/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


06/04/2014

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including a look over Maria Miller's expenses apology. With Labour's Caroline Flint.


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Transcript


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

Pressure on Culture Secretary Maria Miller mounts as the Tory press

:00:42.:00:44.

Tory voters and even a Tory Minister turn against her. That's our top

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story. The economic outlook is getting

:00:50.:00:52.

rosier. But Ed Miliband is having none of it. The cost of living

:00:53.:00:57.

crisis is here to stay, says Labour. Shadow Minister Caroline Flint joins

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us for the Sunday Interview. And we bring you the Sunday Politics

:01:08.:01:10.

Gallery. But which former world leader is behind these paintings of

:01:11.:01:12.

And coming up in the North Dast and world

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And coming up in the North Dast and Cumbria...

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new London borough. A blue flint for regeneration or economic Armageddon?

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And with me as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

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business - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Their tweets will be

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as brief as a Cabinet Minister's apology.

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A frenzy of betting on the Grand National yesterday. But there was

:01:49.:01:52.

one book on which betting was suspended, and that was on the fate

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of Culture Secretary Maria Miller, now the 2/1 favourite to be forced

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out the Cabinet. She galloped through her apology to the Commons

:01:59.:02:01.

on Thursday in just 32 seconds. But speed did her no favours. There s

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been mounting pressure on her to resign ever since, especially from

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Tories. And this weekend the Chairman of the Independent

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Parliamentary Standards Authority, Ian Kennedy, said it's time MPs gave

:02:12.:02:14.

away the power to decide how colleagues who break the rules are

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punished. An inquiry into Maria Miller's expenses claims was launch

:02:30.:02:34.

in 2012, following allegations he claimed ?90,000 to fund a house she

:02:35.:02:39.

lived in part time with her parents. She had designated this her second

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home. She was referred to the Parliamentary Standards

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Commissioner, who recommended that she repay ?45,000. But this week the

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Commons Standards Committee, comprising of MPs from all parties,

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dismissed the complaint against Maria Miller and ordered her to

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repay just ?5,800 for inadvertently overclaiming her merge claimants.

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She was forced to apologise to the Commons for the legalistic way she

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dealt with the complaints against her. But Tony Gallagher told the

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Daily Politics on Friday: We got a third call from Craig Oliver who

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pointed out, she is looking at Leveson and the call is badly timed.

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I think if you are making a series of telephone calls to a newspaper

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organisation investigating the conduct of a Cabinet Minister, that

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comes close After that interview Craig Oliver

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contacted us, saying there was no threat in anyway over Leveson. I

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mead it clear at the time. Tony Gallagher is talking rubbish about

:03:44.:03:47.

me, and you can use that. The Daily Telegraph have released a tape of a

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phone call between Maria Miller s aid, Joanna Hindley, and a reporter

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investigating her expenses claim. Joanna Hindley said:

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Maria's obviously been having quite a lot of editor's meetings around

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Leveson at the moment. So I'm just going to kind of flag up that

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connection for you to think about. The Prime Minister is sticking by

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his Culture Secretary, but this weekend's crescendo of criticism of

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her presents him with a problem and he could be wishing Maria Miller

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would just fall on her sword. Even over 80% of Tory voters in a Mail on

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Sunday poll think she should go On the Andrew Marr Show, the Work and

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Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, defended his colleague. I've

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known her always to be a reasonable and honest person. But is she doing

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the Government or her any good by staying in office at the moment do

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you think? This is a matter the Prime Minister has to take

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consideration of and she herself. My view generally is I'm supportive of

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Maria, because if we are not careful we end one a witch-hunt of somebody.

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And I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, Bob Stewart, and

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the man in the white suit, former MP and anti-sleaze campaigner Martin

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Bell. Welcome to you both. Stuart Stuart sturkts let me put this to

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you, a Conservative MP told this programme, this is a quote, she has

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handled this appallingly. Downing Street has acted like judge and

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jury, for Craig Oliver to get involved is disastrous. She's been

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protected by the whips from the start. What do you say to that? It's

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not great, is it? The fact of the matter is the question one should

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ask is, did she deliberately try to make money? Did she deliberately try

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to obscure ate? The answer is she certainly didn't deliberately try to

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make money, in the system, which was the old system, and with regard to

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obscure ago, I wasn't there, but let's put it this way. She was going

:05:44.:05:49.

through a quasi-judicial process and might have ended up in court, so she

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has a right to defend herself. Hold on o you said she doesn't do it to

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make money, she remortgaged the house a couple of times to earn more

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interest to us, the taxpayer, and when interest rates went down she

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didn't reduce the amount she was charging in expenses. Well, the

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point is the adjudicator said there was ?45,000 she was owed. And then a

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committee, Standards Committee, said actually it should be reduced. That

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was mainly MPs but there are three lay members. Yes, but they don't

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have the vote. OK, fine, that is where it is wrong and we've got to

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get it sorted. Let me put another quote from our Conservative MP. He

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didn't want to be named. None of you do at the moment. I'm being named.

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But you are backing her. George young in cahoots. He's been leading

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on the Standards Committee to find her innocent. The Standards

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Committee is unfit for purpose. I think the Standards Committee should

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be revisited. I think the system is still evolving. And I think actually

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we ought to have totally independent judgment on MPs' pay and allowances.

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We haven't have not got there yet and that is where it is wrong.

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Martin Bell, have MPs interfered in the Maria Miller process and with

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the current Standards Commissioner in the same way that they saw off a

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previous Commissioner they thought was too independent? Andrew it is

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exactly the same. Yesterday I looked at a diary entry I made for May

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2000, I said, dreadful meeting standards and privileges, they are

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playing party politics. One of them told Elizabeth fill kin to her face

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the gossip in the tea room was she had gone crazy. Nothing's changed.

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What this shows is most of all, what's the committee for? If it is

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just going to rubber stamp what the party wants and its mates, I don't

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see any point. But it hasn't rubber stamped. It's changed it. Well, it

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has watered down. That's why we should make it totally independent

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and it shouldn't be involved in the House of Commons. It is plus plus ca

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change isn't it? MPs', scandal, and MPs closing ranks for one of their

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own. Has the Commons learned nothing? And this is after the

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expenses scandal, where everything was out for everybody to see, you

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would think MPs would be careful. This is before the expenses scandal.

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We are looking at an historical event, during your time, Martin not

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mine. I'm clean on this. You campaigned for him as an

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independent. I did, he was a good friend of mine. And now you've

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joined the club. And now you are defending Maria Miller? I'm

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defending someone who hasn't been proved guilty of anything beyond the

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fact she was rather slow to come forward with evidence. My point on

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that, is I understand that. MPs are being lambasted the whole time these

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days. There were a heck of a lot of them, Martin, who are utterly

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decent. She didn't try to make money. We've just been through that.

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I don't think that's right. The jury is out on that. What should have

:09:09.:09:12.

happened in the Miller case, Martin Bell? I don't think there should be

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a committee on standards. I think the Commissioner should make a

:09:17.:09:20.

report. There has been to be justice for the MP complained against. Then

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the committee of the whole House can consider it. But we are, the House

:09:25.:09:29.

of Commons, then as now is incapable of regulating itself. That's been

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proving yet again. She made a perfunctory apology. She threatened

:09:38.:09:41.

and instructed the Standards Commissioner investigating her, and

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her special adviser linked expenses to Leveson, when trying to stop the

:09:46.:09:49.

Daily Telegraph from publishing I mean, is that the behaviour of a

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Cabinet Minister? Well, it's probably not the behaviour of

:09:55.:09:57.

someone that's got time on their hands. She's a very busy Cabinet

:09:58.:10:02.

Minister. Well, she had enough time to write lots of letters to the

:10:03.:10:08.

Standards Commission ser. She felt under such threat. She had the time.

:10:09.:10:15.

She had to make the time. Die know the lady is not trying desperately

:10:16.:10:18.

to make money. I disagree but on that. The fact of the matter is

:10:19.:10:23.

this was an old, old system, that we've tried to put right, or the

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Commons has tried to put right. I agree that MPs shouldn't get

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involved in this. Should we get rid of this committee? It serves no

:10:33.:10:38.

purpose except to cause trouble The adjudicator has said that and it

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should be the end of it. It shouldn't come back to the Commons.

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Although her special adviser threatened them over Leveson she was

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and is the Minister responsible for trying to introduce something like

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Leveson and that is something a big chunk that the press doesn't want.

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She is a target. It has a good record on this issue. It played wit

:11:03.:11:08.

a straight bat. The facts aren't in dispute are they? Will she make it

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to the next cabinet reshuffle and then go? Iain Duncan Smith said it

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is a matter for the Prime Minister. In my view, as things stand, I

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question did she deliberately want to make money? I don't think she

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did. Should she go? No. Should she be reshuffled? I don't know.

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Goodness me, you are asking someone who will never be reshuffled,

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because he will never make it. I was only asking for your opinion, not

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your ability to do it. This is a problem for Cameron isn't it? It is

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a problem for Cameron. There is nothing wrong with returning to be

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badge benches, as you know. Hear, hear. To that. Stick with me. Helen,

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can she survive? Is I'm going out of the prediction game when I said

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Clegg is going to win the date, so I owe Janan a tenner on that one.

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Grant Shapps has supported her. She was ringed by Sir George young and

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Jeremy Hunt... This is pretty devastating. On past form David

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Cameron hates having to bounce people out of the cabinet. He will

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want to keep Maria Miller until the summer reshuffle. This is a question

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mark on whether she survive this is. This isn't damaging to the

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Conservative or the Labour Party, it is damaging to everyone. This is

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catastrophic damage to the entire political establishment. Every

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single speech that David Cameron and Ed Miliband have given since 20 9,

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talking about restoring trust, they can wipe them from their computers,

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because voters are going to look that there and say, this lot haven't

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learnt anything. They are giving perfunctory apologies and then you

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have MPs sitting in judgment on MPs and rather than paying back ?45 000,

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she pays back ?5,800 after MPs have been into it. Damage is huge. Just

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getting rid of one Cabinet Minister, you will need to do more than that.

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You will notice that Labour haven't made huge weather of this. No,

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goodness me, they have their own skeletons. Exactly. The person who

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has made hay out of this is Nigel Farage, who has not been backwards

:13:27.:13:31.

in coming forward. He doesn't seem to care about skeletons. The Prime

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Minister has be-Gunby backing her, but that's not popular even with

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Tory voters. How does he get out of this? This is the problem for him.

:13:41.:13:45.

Five years ago his reaction to the expenses scandal was seen by many

:13:46.:13:51.

Tory backbenchers as excessive. They felt hung out to dry by a man who is

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independently wealthy. To go from that to making a special exemption

:13:57.:14:00.

to Maria Miller because it is politically suitable is more

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incendiary and provocative. It is not just upsetting the voters and

:14:05.:14:06.

the Daily Telegraph but a good number of people behind him. I think

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they will get rid of her. I think the Government, to paraphrase

:14:12.:14:17.

Churchill, will zoo the decent thing after exhausting all options, of the

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European elections a reshuffle. The culture department has gone from a

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baulk water in haul to one of the most politically sensational jobs

:14:30.:14:31.

because of its proximity to the Leveson issue. She has to be

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replaced by someone Lily skillful and substantial. Mr Cameron is not

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short of smart women? Nikki Morgan, the education department, these are

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absolutely outstanding women and the problem that the generation elected

:14:59.:15:04.

in 2005, Maria Miller generation, there are some really good people

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elected in 2010. You are not responsible for hacking into the

:15:12.:15:15.

culture Department's Twitter account last night? I was out at the time!

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They all say that! One so, Maria Miller is like a modern-day Robin

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Hood... She robs the poor to help the rich. Which one of us has not

:15:31.:15:37.

embezzled the taxpayer? I reckon it is the lady. You have the perfect

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cover. We would not know how to would we? You cannot tweet from a

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mobile device, can you? Play it safe. No, do something dramatic

:15:57.:16:00.

Have lots of pledges. Have just a few pledges. Ah, there must be a

:16:01.:16:03.

Labour policy review reaching its conclusion because everyone has some

:16:04.:16:06.

free advice for the party about its message and the man delivering it.

:16:07.:16:14.

Here's Adam. He is well liked by the public don't quite buy him as a

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leader. The papers say he is in hock to the unions and the party has a

:16:21.:16:23.

lead in the polls but it is not solid. Bartenders Neil Kinnock. That

:16:24.:16:28.

is what they said Winnie who lost the 1982 election. The whole country

:16:29.:16:36.

deserves better and we will work to ensure that the day will come when

:16:37.:16:43.

with the Labour government, the country will get better. Someone who

:16:44.:16:48.

was there can see some spooky parallels. The important lesson from

:16:49.:16:54.

1992 is it cannot rest on your laurels and hope for the best, you

:16:55.:16:58.

cannot sit on a lead of seven points because the election narrows that

:16:59.:17:03.

and you cannot rely on the government not getting its act

:17:04.:17:06.

together because the Conservative Party was well funded and organised,

:17:07.:17:11.

the double whammy posters, the tax bombshell, but incredibly effective

:17:12.:17:16.

and the message was unified and they beat us on the campaign. The lesson

:17:17.:17:23.

for Labour today is this lead will evaporate quite possibly over the

:17:24.:17:26.

next few months and we might go into the election behind in the polls.

:17:27.:17:32.

But Ed Miliband is getting conflicting advice about how to

:17:33.:17:35.

avoid 1992 happening. Be bold, be cautious and then, the idea that

:17:36.:17:41.

Labour can squeak into office with just 35% of the vote, which worries

:17:42.:17:47.

some people. Each month, the Labour Party meets around the country and

:17:48.:17:53.

last week, everybody spoke about the dangers of this 35% strategy. They

:17:54.:17:58.

were increasingly unhappy and it is very important that those people

:17:59.:18:04.

around the leader naturally have a duty to protect him and they make

:18:05.:18:09.

sure he gets this message that while there is total support for him, they

:18:10.:18:15.

do want this key year in the run-up to the General Election to be

:18:16.:18:18.

putting out an alternative which we can defend on the doorstep. The

:18:19.:18:24.

doorstep where Neil Kinnock made his concession speech is crammed with

:18:25.:18:29.

Spanish back hackers. The old Labour offices are no a budget hostel.

:18:30.:18:37.

Labour headquarters is down the road and they are putting the finishing

:18:38.:18:41.

touches to a speech Ed Miliband will give this week about the cost of

:18:42.:18:44.

living and I am told he will drop hints about new policies in juicy

:18:45.:18:49.

areas like housing, low pay, growth and devolving power. As for the

:18:50.:18:53.

charge that they are not radical enough, his people say they want to

:18:54.:18:57.

be bold but they have to be credible as well. They say that Labour is

:18:58.:19:02.

more united than it has ever been but there has been some grumbling

:19:03.:19:06.

that the cost of living campaign is not the same as a vision for the

:19:07.:19:10.

country. And that Ed Miliband was not statesman-like enough at Prime

:19:11.:19:15.

Minister's Questions and one figure who sat at the same table in the

:19:16.:19:18.

Neil Kinnock years summed it up like this. Things are OK but it feels

:19:19.:19:24.

like we're playing for the draw Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline

:19:25.:19:27.

Flint joins me now for the Sunday Interview. This 35% victory

:19:28.:19:41.

strategy, it does not sound very ambitious? I am campaigning to win

:19:42.:19:48.

this election with a majority government and everybody else around

:19:49.:19:53.

the table is also. But we want to go to every corner of the country and

:19:54.:19:58.

win votes for Labour and win seats, that is what we are working towards.

:19:59.:20:03.

To avoid last time, the coalition bartering. But that 35% is a victory

:20:04.:20:10.

strategy so are you saying there is no 35% strategy and that no one at

:20:11.:20:15.

the heart of Labour is not arguing for this? We are working to win

:20:16.:20:21.

around the country and to win all of those battle ground seats and we

:20:22.:20:25.

must have a strategy that appeals to a cross-section of the public but

:20:26.:20:29.

within that, that broad group Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and. You

:20:30.:20:40.

could do that with 35% of the vote? There is lots of polling and

:20:41.:20:42.

everyone looks at this about what we need to do to get seats and we want

:20:43.:20:48.

to have a comprehensive majority at the next election to win to govern

:20:49.:20:56.

this country. Last week, we have been reading reports of splits in

:20:57.:21:00.

the party over policy and on tactics, even strategy. A struggle

:21:01.:21:06.

for control of the General Election manifesto, we are told. What are you

:21:07.:21:13.

arguing over? I said on the committee and just listening to the

:21:14.:21:15.

film before, it is about being radical but also credible and we are

:21:16.:21:20.

talking about evolution and that is an important subject but we are also

:21:21.:21:27.

united and to be honest, in 201 people were writing us off saying we

:21:28.:21:31.

would turn on ourselves and that has not been the case. We are not

:21:32.:21:36.

arguing about the fundamentals, we are discussing the policies that are

:21:37.:21:40.

coming up with different colleagues and talking about how we can make

:21:41.:21:44.

sure they are presented to the public and that is part of a

:21:45.:21:47.

process. That is a discussion, not disagreement. The Financial Times,

:21:48.:21:55.

which is usually pretty fair, reports a battle between Ed

:21:56.:22:01.

Miliband's radical instincts and the more business fiscal conservatism of

:22:02.:22:05.

Ed Balls. What side are you on? I am for radical change, I am for energy

:22:06.:22:10.

and I believe strongly we must be formed the market and people might

:22:11.:22:15.

portray that as anti-business but this is about more competition and

:22:16.:22:20.

transparency and others coming into this market so our policy on this is

:22:21.:22:24.

radical, not excepting the status quo. It is also for business.

:22:25.:22:32.

Opinion polls show that few people regard Ed Miliband as by Minister

:22:33.:22:41.

material -- Prime Minister material. That has been true since he became

:22:42.:22:46.

leader. And in some cases, they have been getting worse. Why is that

:22:47.:22:52.

Opinion polls say certain things about the personalities of leaders,

:22:53.:22:57.

David Cameron is not great either. And they were not great when he was

:22:58.:23:03.

in opposition. At this stage, he was getting 49% as Prime Minister real

:23:04.:23:10.

material and Ed Miliband, 19. - Prime Minister material. When you

:23:11.:23:17.

look at certain questions that the public is asked about who you think

:23:18.:23:21.

you would trust about being fair in terms of policy towards Britain who

:23:22.:23:25.

understands the cost of living crisis, they very much identify with

:23:26.:23:30.

Ed Miliband. We are ahead in the polls. Ed Miliband has made that

:23:31.:23:37.

happen. We have one more councillors, we have been running in

:23:38.:23:43.

by-elections and we have held this government over the barrel over six

:23:44.:23:46.

months on energy prices. That is to do with his leadership. The more

:23:47.:23:51.

that voters save him, the less they seem convinced. In 2011, he had been

:23:52.:23:59.

leader for one year, and only 1 % regarded him as weird, by 2014, that

:24:00.:24:08.

was 41%. Look at that! Look at that weirdness! What people need is to

:24:09.:24:13.

know where the Labour Party stands on fundamental issues. And in those

:24:14.:24:17.

areas, particularly the cost of living and fairness and people being

:24:18.:24:22.

concerned that we are entering into a period where people will be worse

:24:23.:24:26.

for the first time ever at the end of the Parliament, these things are

:24:27.:24:31.

important and Ed Miliband is part of our success. Definitely. I think

:24:32.:24:39.

this is ridiculous, to be fair, he is not a politician that says, I am

:24:40.:24:44.

dying with the Arctic monkeys, I know who is the number one. He did

:24:45.:24:52.

not play that game. -- down. He is not either there to portray himself

:24:53.:24:57.

as someone who was with the children, I know everything about

:24:58.:25:02.

popular culture. His authenticity is the most important thing. People do

:25:03.:25:05.

not think he is authentic, unless they think we were at is authentic.

:25:06.:25:12.

Is it true that his staff applaud him when he comes back after giving

:25:13.:25:18.

even a mediocre speech? I have never heard that. I have never heard about

:25:19.:25:26.

him being applauded. And I am pleased to applaud him with he makes

:25:27.:25:29.

speeches, I have given him a standing ovation. You have to do

:25:30.:25:33.

that because the cameras are rolling! No, he made a good speech.

:25:34.:25:40.

Five minutes without notes. It took a long time to memorise I don't

:25:41.:25:44.

blame him! The cost of living. Focusing on that, it has paid

:25:45.:25:50.

dividends. But inflation is falling and perhaps collapsing, unemployment

:25:51.:25:54.

is falling faster than anybody thought, as we can see. Wages are

:25:55.:26:01.

rising, soon faster than prices Retail sales are booming, people

:26:02.:26:06.

have got money in their pockets Isn't the cost of living crisis

:26:07.:26:11.

narrative running out of steam? I do not think so and I should say that I

:26:12.:26:17.

welcome any sign of positive changes in the economy, if anybody gets a

:26:18.:26:22.

job in Doncaster, I am pleased by the end of this Parliament families

:26:23.:26:28.

will be over ?900 worse off because of tax and benefit changes and the

:26:29.:26:35.

working person is ?1600 worse off and it is the first government since

:26:36.:26:38.

the 1870s where people will be at the end of the Parliament. We

:26:39.:26:42.

believe the government made wrong choices that lead the rich off at

:26:43.:26:45.

the expense of those on middle and lower incomes. -- let the rich. The

:26:46.:26:54.

average family ?794 worse off from tax and benefit changes. That has

:26:55.:26:59.

been backed up. They are those figures. But he has skewed these

:27:00.:27:04.

figures by including the richest, where the fall in tax and the

:27:05.:27:09.

penalty they pay is highest. If you take away the richest, it is nowhere

:27:10.:27:15.

near that figure. Everybody agrees and even the government and

:27:16.:27:18.

knowledges that at the end of their tenure in Parliament, people will be

:27:19.:27:25.

worse off. 350,000 extra people who would desperately like full-time

:27:26.:27:29.

work who are working part-time and 1 million young people unemployed and

:27:30.:27:32.

the reason the cost of living has a residence is people feel that. I was

:27:33.:27:38.

in a supermarket and at Doncaster and someone summed this up, he said

:27:39.:27:43.

I work hard and at the end of the week, beyond paying bills, I have

:27:44.:27:47.

got nothing else. If you take away the top 10% who are losing over

:27:48.:27:55.

?600,000, the average loss comes down to around ?400, less than half

:27:56.:28:02.

of what you claim. That figure is totally misleading. These are the

:28:03.:28:08.

figures from the IFS. It still shows... Whatever way you shape

:28:09.:28:15.

this, people will still be worse off, families worse off because of

:28:16.:28:18.

these changes to tax and benefits and working people because wages

:28:19.:28:24.

have not kept up with prices. Your energy portfolio, you back the

:28:25.:28:29.

enquiry into the big six companies and you intend to go ahead with the

:28:30.:28:33.

price freeze and reconfigure the market even before it reports. If

:28:34.:28:39.

you win, this is a waste of time? Whilst we have had this process

:28:40.:28:42.

before the announcement, we always feel if it goes that way, there

:28:43.:28:47.

might be areas we have not thought of that the enquiry will also draw

:28:48.:28:50.

attention to that we might want to add on. You are right, our basic

:28:51.:28:55.

reforms for the new regulator, to separate generation supply, we will

:28:56.:29:01.

pursue that. What happens if this report concludes that your plans are

:29:02.:29:05.

not correct? You will still go ahead? I don't think so. Actually,

:29:06.:29:10.

if you look at the report that Ofgem produced, some of the issues Labour

:29:11.:29:14.

has been drawing attention to like vertical integration, they cover

:29:15.:29:19.

that. I was asking about the Competition Commission? The report

:29:20.:29:25.

last week is a result of working together and I think it is clearly

:29:26.:29:32.

accepted in this sector, look at SSE last week, they will separate the

:29:33.:29:36.

business. We are pushing at the open door. It has already pulled out of

:29:37.:29:56.

gas. So it follows if you freeze energy prices across the market it

:29:57.:30:00.

might be the right thing to do but there will be a cost in terms of

:30:01.:30:03.

jobs and investment, correct? Well, I met with SSE last weekand the

:30:04.:30:07.

chief executive and talked about these issues. The jobs changes are

:30:08.:30:12.

partly about them looking at how they could be more efficient as a

:30:13.:30:15.

company. On offshore wind that wasn't really to do with the price

:30:16.:30:19.

freeze. That was more to do with issues around confidence in that

:30:20.:30:21.

area and therefore willing to put the money into it, as well as

:30:22.:30:27.

technical issues as well But there'll be job losses. Is that a

:30:28.:30:33.

price worth paying? We believe the reason we are having a price freeze

:30:34.:30:37.

is these companies have been overcharging customers and haven't

:30:38.:30:40.

been investing in their organisations and making them more

:30:41.:30:44.

efficient. I do not believe a price freeze is linked to job losses.

:30:45.:30:48.

These companies do need to be more efficient. Goal for all of us is

:30:49.:30:52.

realising the fantastic opportunity for more jobs and growth from an

:30:53.:30:56.

energy sector that has certainty going forward. That's what Labour

:30:57.:31:00.

will deliver. Caroline Flint, thank you.

:31:01.:31:03.

It's 1130 and you're watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to

:31:04.:31:05.

viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:31:06.:31:07.

Half Good afternoon. This afternoon, Coming up here

:31:08.:31:28.

Half Good afternoon. This afternoon, we are talking about plans to shake

:31:29.:31:33.

up English Heritage. There `re worries that many centres could

:31:34.:31:37.

close to the public. In the main strike was 30 years ago and there is

:31:38.:31:42.

a call for an enquiry into police tactics during the main str`ight.

:31:43.:31:51.

The three enterprise partnerships in the region have the submittdd bids

:31:52.:31:58.

for millions of pounds of extra money and new powers. They will have

:31:59.:32:03.

to compete with 36 other bids from across the United Kingdom for a

:32:04.:32:13.

slice of the ?2 billion pot. The Conservatives say it will ddliver

:32:14.:32:19.

hundreds of jobs and businesses but labour is sceptical. You ard heavily

:32:20.:32:27.

involved in the fund at its inception. The number of jobs

:32:28.:32:33.

promised have not come throtgh. If you look at the companies who have

:32:34.:32:43.

money in the North East, thd likes of Nissan, the engineering `nd

:32:44.:32:48.

manufacturing sector has done tremendously well. Manufacttring,

:32:49.:32:55.

exports, whose businesses. But surely that is not really for the

:32:56.:33:02.

fund was set up for. It is to help the growth and exports and H think

:33:03.:33:05.

it is working extremely well. That is just in the North East. Ht has

:33:06.:33:10.

happened in other parts of the country and is helping to rdbalance

:33:11.:33:14.

the economy to the manufacttring sector, which we want to sed. The

:33:15.:33:20.

North East has done well out of the fun compared to regions, such as the

:33:21.:33:33.

building of the new bridge. The pain reason for the fund is to ensure

:33:34.:33:38.

growth in employment and jobs in the region. I am not satisfied that this

:33:39.:33:45.

has been productive, partictlarly on my part of the North East. There has

:33:46.:33:52.

only been about ?1.4 million spent from the fund in my area. It has

:33:53.:34:01.

helped some business to get established, it has maybe treated

:34:02.:34:07.

remaining 260 jobs. It is wdlcome, but it is not what we need. We need

:34:08.:34:12.

more money. By creating extra money in the region, is it not better for

:34:13.:34:19.

the North East as a whole. @s I say, 260 jobs and everyone of thdm is

:34:20.:34:25.

welcome in North East. But hn the North East, 160 thousand potnds

:34:26.:34:33.

worth said to be treated in the region. The regional growth front

:34:34.:34:39.

has not delivered what it should be in the past. So we should not really

:34:40.:34:46.

be too grateful. There is a belief that the partnerships are wdak,

:34:47.:34:48.

there are two of them in thd North East. Surely it needs to get a shade

:34:49.:34:56.

of the money which represents the needs. The greatest problem has been

:34:57.:35:01.

ourselves, the lack of unitx we have seen in recent months betwedn the

:35:02.:35:08.

local authorities in the region it means we are Colin for one region,

:35:09.:35:18.

so that we get the money to deliver it to the various parts of ht. but

:35:19.:35:22.

instead all we have been getting squabbles. The combined authority

:35:23.:35:32.

has been delayed. There havd been too many rows and divisions. We were

:35:33.:35:39.

way behind the rest of the country because of disagreements in the

:35:40.:35:43.

region when they were being established. If you see what is

:35:44.:35:48.

happening in the North West and the likes of Leeds, other parts of the

:35:49.:35:52.

country, they were up and rtnning straightaway. It is easy for someone

:35:53.:36:02.

from the Liberal Democrats to see it as Labour who are squabbling, but we

:36:03.:36:06.

have seven authorities combhne. We have to understand each of them

:36:07.:36:12.

They are elected to ensure that they do the best for their community It

:36:13.:36:19.

is not squabbling. It is individual authorities insisting that, before

:36:20.:36:22.

the deal was done, everybodx should be looked on as equal in thd

:36:23.:36:27.

combined authority. And that is very important if it is to succedd. A

:36:28.:36:34.

group of Labour MPs are calling for a Hillsborough style enquirx into

:36:35.:36:42.

police tactics during the mhners' strike in 1984. Most miners arrested

:36:43.:36:45.

were charged with main order offences. But it left them `nd

:36:46.:36:53.

sometimes there are waves whth a criminal record. Peter Beard has

:36:54.:37:00.

joined those who see a enquhry is necessary. 30 years ago, thdse were

:37:01.:37:07.

battle grounds. The County Durham 's wife was standing in speaking

:37:08.:37:15.

alongside Arthur Scargill. We have a government pursuing violent policies

:37:16.:37:20.

against the people. A few wdeks later, she was arrested by police on

:37:21.:37:24.

a picket line in a local village. She was accused of threatenhng

:37:25.:37:31.

behaviour. One of them punched me and pushed me into the van. When we

:37:32.:37:37.

got to the police station, ht was the same attitude. I sat thdre in

:37:38.:37:45.

the cold and I could not believe the lies that were coming from, the

:37:46.:37:51.

police officers. She receivdd a conditional discharge for a claim

:37:52.:37:55.

she said she did not commit, but says there should be an enqtiry into

:37:56.:38:01.

why the innocent were found guilty. Every arm of the state was tsed

:38:02.:38:06.

against the main orders, thd families and their communithes. The

:38:07.:38:10.

abuse of state power was terrible. Web is not just me. People got

:38:11.:38:21.

landed with convictions, and it was like living in a police state.

:38:22.:38:28.

Within a year of Florence 's arrest, that it was closed. It is p`rkland

:38:29.:38:32.

and many of the main asked them what here have gone to the graves. But

:38:33.:38:37.

for the communities, there hs unfinished business about the

:38:38.:38:41.

straight and questions needhng answers. The local MP was convicted

:38:42.:38:46.

of two public order offences during the period. He thinks many liners

:38:47.:38:52.

received rough justice. While the police had to do was invent a story

:38:53.:38:56.

for the majesty and the maghstrate would believe them. If the

:38:57.:39:06.

magistrates are honest, thex will come out and admit that thex were

:39:07.:39:09.

instructed to come down hard on the main honours. Today, the police and

:39:10.:39:20.

claim Commissioner, via Beard, was then looking into police conduct.

:39:21.:39:24.

She can understand why people are seeking justice. I can understand

:39:25.:39:30.

why there are calls for an dnquiry into it. There are obviouslx people

:39:31.:39:34.

who feel a deep sense of injustice from the period. They want to get a

:39:35.:39:44.

proper answer as to why thex were treated that way. But one

:39:45.:39:49.

conservative who was an MP then says there should not be an enquhry. If

:39:50.:39:55.

you look back to the year, the most significant event was the arrival of

:39:56.:40:08.

Nissan in Sunderland. It wotld be wrong to launch an enquiry hnto

:40:09.:40:14.

this, as opposed to other shtuations such as Hillsborough and bloody

:40:15.:40:18.

Sunday, whether we are obviously good reasons for an enquiry. I think

:40:19.:40:25.

it is best to leave this ye`r. Could this be therapeutic for the North

:40:26.:40:30.

East? 30 years on, there ard still wins that will not heal unldss

:40:31.:40:35.

properly investigated. This was not Hillsborough. There was not what of

:40:36.:40:40.

life loss of life. Why spend millions of us. Let us move on. This

:40:41.:40:47.

was not like Hillsborough. Have the actions of the police and it really

:40:48.:40:53.

operated during the strike from the picket line, the really maghstrates

:40:54.:41:01.

operated during the main straight, the way the politicians operate it

:41:02.:41:06.

was an absolute disgrace. Qtestions need to be asked about thesd

:41:07.:41:12.

operations by the police on the picket lines. If that had h`ppened

:41:13.:41:21.

at the time, we seek striking similarities between that and

:41:22.:41:25.

Hillsborough. They were tot`lly out of control, the told lies in court,

:41:26.:41:33.

falsified documents. If these questions had been asked back then,

:41:34.:41:38.

Hillsborough, could it have been avoided? That is conjecture. But

:41:39.:41:46.

here we may not have broke the law. Surely you must see that. When you

:41:47.:41:54.

say that Mrs Thatcher and sdnior ministers showing that the lain

:41:55.:42:02.

honours were right. But there was a likes of concrete blocks getting

:42:03.:42:11.

blocked from the motorway. The government denied that they cannot

:42:12.:42:16.

with a plan to make the main is redundant. The misled of liberty.

:42:17.:42:21.

The told lies deliberately. There was a conspiracy against thd main

:42:22.:42:29.

honours. Why did they contelplate bringing the armed forces against

:42:30.:42:33.

ordinary, hard`working men `nd women. That is why there should be

:42:34.:42:39.

an enquiry. It was a conspiracy You are the MP in Stockton at the time.

:42:40.:42:46.

Is an enquiry worth having? I can see no point in dredging up what

:42:47.:42:52.

happened 30 years ago. This was a tragic event for many peopld. I

:42:53.:42:59.

sympathise with some of those in the North East, but Arthur Scargill B is

:43:00.:43:04.

a heavy responsibility for what he did. He split the main stond the

:43:05.:43:10.

middle, caused great decepthon in mining community. You could say that

:43:11.:43:13.

he led a conspiracy against the government. What is the point of

:43:14.:43:19.

pursuing that now. Like the one argument to you. If it is rhght that

:43:20.:43:26.

the court, the police were tsed as political tools by the government,

:43:27.:43:31.

that could happen again. Should we not get to the truth of whether that

:43:32.:43:36.

was the case? I do not belidve magistrate should be told what

:43:37.:43:40.

decisions to take in court by the government. I do not believd that

:43:41.:43:45.

happens. I do not believe it did happen. I do not think therd is any

:43:46.:43:49.

point going back over it all again. There is no value to the region in

:43:50.:43:55.

doing that. We need to be looking ahead and start looking

:43:56.:44:02.

nostalgically to the past. Of course we want to look forward. I want to

:44:03.:44:05.

look forward to the people who were fighting for their communithes at

:44:06.:44:10.

the team, the economic prosperity of the communities, they were pushed

:44:11.:44:15.

back by the state and we should be looking for an enquiry and getting

:44:16.:44:25.

an amnesty for people who h`d the criminal records given to them

:44:26.:44:31.

wrongly. Though, if you likd sightseeing, it will not be long

:44:32.:44:35.

before you come across a pl`ce run by English Heritage. In the region,

:44:36.:44:42.

there are some 400 houses and gardens, but current plans by

:44:43.:44:45.

English Heritage to letting them? Northumberland, even on a grey day,

:44:46.:45:02.

the enthusiasm of visitors hs not dimmed. The gardens are beattiful

:45:03.:45:06.

and the itself, it is amazing how much is still standing. He could see

:45:07.:45:12.

that someone was looking after this place really well. It is am`zing to

:45:13.:45:17.

think of all the things that have been built in the past. It has a

:45:18.:45:23.

lovely garden which changes throughout the year. His sttdy never

:45:24.:45:29.

stands still and there are big changes in plan for English

:45:30.:45:36.

Heritage. The currently an `rm of government will be split into. One

:45:37.:45:41.

half will take on responsibhlity for the National Heritage collection,

:45:42.:45:46.

the buildings in historic shtes This will mean government ftnding

:45:47.:45:52.

being phased out by 2023. Btt the charity will receive ?80 million as

:45:53.:45:59.

a one`off cash injection to ease the transition to charitable st`tus We

:46:00.:46:03.

can address the conservation defects that desperately need addressing as

:46:04.:46:06.

well as investing in the properties in the way we cannot do at the

:46:07.:46:11.

moment. We will be able to fund raise from away. Source. `` away.

:46:12.:46:18.

Source. This was run by English Herhtage,

:46:19.:46:30.

but there is no cafe, no visitor centre in no way to charge people

:46:31.:46:36.

coming to visit. So how would the new charity generate income from a

:46:37.:46:42.

place like this? A beautiful ruin any remote spot. We will look after

:46:43.:46:47.

all the properties in our c`re. The larger properties, which get the

:46:48.:46:56.

likes of 60,000 visitors a xear they will generate income from the

:46:57.:47:01.

likes of entry fees and catdring. Even with this cross subsidx,

:47:02.:47:05.

critics question whether English Heritage will become be abld to

:47:06.:47:10.

raise enough money when it becomes a charity. The likes of a fird or

:47:11.:47:17.

flood or C an outbreak of foot and mouth disease and you find that the

:47:18.:47:21.

visitors drop, all targets `re missed and there is a huge

:47:22.:47:29.

shortfall. The government argues the plans are built on strong

:47:30.:47:34.

foundations. There is no qudstion that the two new bodies being

:47:35.:47:41.

created, historic England, the regulator of their heritage, and

:47:42.:47:45.

English Heritage, which will run and manage the properties on behalf of

:47:46.:47:49.

the nation, will still have exactly the same powers as they havd now. As

:47:50.:47:55.

the peer into the future, stpporters of the plan say it is a way of

:47:56.:48:01.

ensuring iconic monuments and buildings are preserved for the

:48:02.:48:04.

future. Critics worry about what lies ahead. There is a dangdr that

:48:05.:48:13.

our heritage could be damagdd. Is this a gamble? I think it is a

:48:14.:48:18.

gamble, but change is always time to give rise to anxiety. But if you

:48:19.:48:22.

look at the track record in the region and the rest of the country

:48:23.:48:30.

of the likes of the National trust. We do not get government money.

:48:31.:48:35.

English Heritage has been gdtting 20 million, been given an 80 mhllion to

:48:36.:48:39.

launch this in a new way. If you look at what is happening in Bishop

:48:40.:48:43.

Auckland, with philanthropy money coming in. It is standard to a

:48:44.:48:53.

massive visitor attraction. It can be done. Of course it will give rise

:48:54.:48:58.

to anxiety and ratio that. H hope it works, and there is no reason it

:48:59.:49:03.

should not. Is this a sensible way of taking the government out of the

:49:04.:49:10.

equation? English Heritage hs a very important organisation to the

:49:11.:49:15.

region. Tourism is so important to the North East. If you look at the

:49:16.:49:22.

likes of Northumberland, English Heritage plays a huge role there. We

:49:23.:49:30.

have that because English Hdritage runs its all well and anythhng which

:49:31.:49:33.

police are in jeopardy, I would worry about. Carlisle is a regular

:49:34.:49:45.

visit for top politicians. The Prime Minister was he recently. Hdre is

:49:46.:49:48.

the rest of the week 's news. Readers of Northumberland councils

:49:49.:50:07.

make their counterparts frol across the border in Scotland, to look at

:50:08.:50:11.

improving transport links. Harriet Harman was in the region to visit

:50:12.:50:22.

the new centre. There has also been questions about the West Culberland

:50:23.:50:28.

Hospital. Six years after the rebuilding programme, the hospital

:50:29.:50:33.

has been plunged into crisis. We nearest hospital is not down the

:50:34.:50:38.

road, it is 42 may also be `n Carlisle, and it too is strtggling.

:50:39.:50:43.

Can he please do everything to assist me and make local colmunity

:50:44.:50:47.

to retain services in the Wdst Cumberland Hospital. Finallx,

:50:48.:51:01.

that is about it from us. Wd are back much later next week, `t half

:51:02.:51:07.

past two in the afternoon. Dobson. Tim Donovan is back in the

:51:08.:51:10.

chair next week. And with that, back to Andrew. Welcome back and time now

:51:11.:51:24.

to get more from our panel. So they can justify their meagre patents.

:51:25.:51:31.

This cost of living mantra will last all the way until the election.

:51:32.:51:36.

Cannot? Ed Miliband leaves he is onto something and for most of this

:51:37.:51:39.

Parliament, inflation has outstripped wages. That is going to

:51:40.:51:45.

go the other way and wages will rise, to which you say Ed Miliband

:51:46.:51:51.

has nothing to say. He says if you think people are going to feel

:51:52.:51:55.

better in the blink of an eye, you are a Conservative and do not

:51:56.:51:58.

understand the depth of this and he is taking the message from a

:51:59.:52:02.

presidential election in America in 2012 and make Romney was ahead on

:52:03.:52:08.

some of the economic indicators but Barack Obama was ahead on the key

:52:09.:52:12.

one, do you believe this candidate will make your family's life

:52:13.:52:16.

better? The message that Ed Miliband will try to say is the next election

:52:17.:52:23.

is about whose side are you on? And he believes Labour will be on the

:52:24.:52:25.

side of more voters than conservatives. It would be crazy for

:52:26.:52:30.

Labour not to talk about the cost of living because even if wages exceed

:52:31.:52:36.

inflation next year, it is not as if voters will walk around feeling like

:52:37.:52:39.

Imelda Marcos, they will still feel as if they were struggling and not

:52:40.:52:45.

just compared... Retail sales are slowing? That is not the sign of

:52:46.:52:52.

palpable disparity. Circumstances are better than three years ago but

:52:53.:52:58.

not better than five years ago. The Reagan question will still be

:52:59.:53:02.

employed, are you better off than at the last election? But things in

:53:03.:53:08.

America were actually getting worse when he asked that. I covered that

:53:09.:53:13.

election, that is why it resonated and they did get worse. The

:53:14.:53:17.

Ayatollah had quadrupled the price of oil. This is based on things

:53:18.:53:23.

getting relatively better, after a very long wait, so the cost of

:53:24.:53:29.

living critique will have to adapt? It will but it gets out of a very

:53:30.:53:35.

sticky spot and the IFS says wages will not outstrip inflation and by

:53:36.:53:39.

that time they can start talking about other things, plans for the

:53:40.:53:43.

railways and tuition fees and at the moment, everything is up for grabs.

:53:44.:53:47.

Labour know that every time they talk about something they want to

:53:48.:53:51.

do, the question is, how do you pay for it? They can talk about the

:53:52.:53:55.

economy and they don't have substantial things to say. Is it

:53:56.:53:59.

true that Mr Iain Duncan Smith was going to make a major announcement

:54:00.:54:05.

on benefit cheats? Or something to do with that this morning? But he

:54:06.:54:10.

decided against it because of the tobacco over Maria Miller? It would

:54:11.:54:14.

be very odd to go on to The Andrew Marr Show to have a chat and see

:54:15.:54:19.

what he is having for lunch. Patrick went from the Guardian said he was

:54:20.:54:22.

going to set out higher financial penalty phase for providing

:54:23.:54:27.

inaccurate information in claims. This is a bad day to do that, given

:54:28.:54:33.

that MP expenses are treated far more lenient the than any one from

:54:34.:54:39.

Joe public. That would be fascinating, if true. And he is

:54:40.:54:44.

making a very big speech on well for tomorrow and this tweet from Patrick

:54:45.:54:49.

went at the Guardian, he has proper sized on welfare matters and he

:54:50.:54:53.

tends to know what is going on. But it would be deeply unfortunate if

:54:54.:54:58.

that was the message today. How can he make a speech that has anything

:54:59.:55:01.

about cracking down on benefit claimants? Not today but I am not

:55:02.:55:07.

sure tomorrow. Do you get the impression that nobody in both main

:55:08.:55:14.

parties is very confident of winning in 2015? I column last week said the

:55:15.:55:18.

result, the most likely result from one year on is another hung

:55:19.:55:23.

parliament and which government results from that depends on the

:55:24.:55:28.

mathematical specifics of whether the Tories can do a deal as well as

:55:29.:55:32.

Labour, leaving everything in the hands of Nick Clegg or whether one

:55:33.:55:36.

party can do a straightforward deal but I do not detect any sense of

:55:37.:55:40.

exuberance or confidence in either camp. And the Tories are still

:55:41.:55:46.

shooting themselves over losing the boundary commission reforms because

:55:47.:55:49.

that was going to net them 20 seats and they lost that because they

:55:50.:55:53.

messed up the House of Lords reform and there are still furious with

:55:54.:55:57.

themselves. The former US President, George W Bush, has been a busy boy

:55:58.:56:00.

and here at the Sunday Politics we thought you'd like to see the

:56:01.:56:04.

results of his artistic endeavours. Time for the gallery.

:56:05.:56:08.

I was a prize to find myself saying, some of these are not bad! --

:56:09.:56:57.

surprised. Vladimir Putin? I like the one of Tony Blair but his early

:56:58.:57:04.

ones of dogs, to be in the presence of the master is to see his portrait

:57:05.:57:09.

of a Joanne Love. He is not of the Turner prize but I was surprised. He

:57:10.:57:14.

gets the mask of Vladimir Putin also Tony Blair. I was impressed

:57:15.:57:20.

that he did not allow personal or political grudges to influence his

:57:21.:57:24.

artwork. Jacques Chirac, he comes out of this incredibly well! And

:57:25.:57:29.

Angela Merkel comes out astonishingly well. Quite generous

:57:30.:57:36.

as well. Tony Blair is the best one and the reason is he had the closest

:57:37.:57:40.

relationship with them and he has talked about this portrait, saying

:57:41.:57:44.

he was quite fond of him and you can see that. These are awful, they

:57:45.:57:49.

would not get you an A-level but you must admire him to have the guts to

:57:50.:57:56.

do this, and display them publicly! An A-level? Just doing joined up

:57:57.:58:02.

numbers gets you that these days! What do you do when you retire? This

:58:03.:58:07.

is less embarrassing than some of the other things people have done.

:58:08.:58:11.

As good as Churchill? I don't know... No! Churchill was brilliant!

:58:12.:58:19.

And on that! That's all for today. Tune into BBC Two every day at

:58:20.:58:23.

lunchtime this week for the Daily Politics. And we'll be back at the

:58:24.:58:26.

later time of 2:30pm next Sunday after the London Marathon. Remember,

:58:27.:58:29.

if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:58:30.:58:36.

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