13/04/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


13/04/2014

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with political news. Including a debate ahead of the European elections with members of UKIP, Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.


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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

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their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

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time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the

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issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the

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Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever

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we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political

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In the North East and Cumbrha: commentators.

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In the North East and Cumbrha: Labour promises a minister to stand

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up for the region. And why one north`east council is

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scrapping parking charges for motorists, just as Cumbria

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introduces them. newspapers which some claim are

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politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of

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local services. So all that to come between now and

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quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be

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debating the European elections Here in the studio we have Syed

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Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard

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Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader

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of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of

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communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us

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their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they

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drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed

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Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is

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about. The vote to choose members of the

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European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same

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day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional

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representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.

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What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has

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grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or

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reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have

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been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,

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banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.

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Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe

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needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to

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change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of

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the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems

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will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives will offer

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the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a

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conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a

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referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think

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Britain is better off in Europe vote for the Liberal Democrats. The

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Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe

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and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to

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pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and

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jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the

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courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in

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Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from

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Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are

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not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs

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and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,

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reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good

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Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who

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is risking your job and Britain s prosperity because of divisions in

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his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth

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opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a

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declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a

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20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in

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Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt to

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force on the European people European this as their primary

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collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do

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not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.

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That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why

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should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can

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deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics

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and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that

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Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state

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status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading

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deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in

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the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those

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elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation

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states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that

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many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your

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feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the

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EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the

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28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to

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the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of

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Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters

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will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal

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Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because

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we are the only party trying to change the EU and offer reform. We

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have offered renegotiation and a referendum. And how would you vote

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in such a referendum? We have no idea whether he would vote yes or

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no. Let him answer. I will answer that question. If the EU continues

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on this road, towards a United States of Europe, and if there was

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no change at the time of the referendum, then I would probably

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vote to leave. You have no confidence in David Cameron? We

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Javier Culson opportunity to read negotiate our relationship with

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Europe and the Conservatives are at the forefront of that agenda. David

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Cameron have not given a list of demands. He said that if things do

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not change, he will probably vote to leave, is that right? If at the time

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of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and

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we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the

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last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.

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Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And

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that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different

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animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour

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government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a

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free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the

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elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If

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you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the

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party of government that they probably want you to leave because

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the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of

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commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not

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give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social

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powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is

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so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that

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there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why

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wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of

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reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is

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because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be

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unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of

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a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your

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leader missing in action? Ed Miliband is unable to say even the

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positive things that you are saying. He has run away from the argument.

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He actually said there would not be a referendum in his time.

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For a conservative to say they will have a referendum but not give the

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reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity

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in that debate. He said that the Eurosceptic view was to leave

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Britain like Billy no mates. I can say that he is the best qualified

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person to say that. Sarah Ludford, you have said that lots of people

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are going to vote Lib Dem but that is not what the polls are saying.

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You are 7% in two polls this morning. Eclectic's decision to

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champion Europe has been a disaster for you. You face wet out. We swayed

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a lot of people our way with Nick Clegg's debate. Where is the

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evidence? We are the only party that is completely united, saying that we

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are wanting to stay in. It is essential because formally and jobs

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are supported by our trade with the EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding

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a lot of moderate conservative voters are actually fed up with the

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Tories being split and divided all over the place. Syed Kamall saying

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that we might vote in rout. -- in or out. We are consistent. A poll in

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London showed that 18% would vote for us. I am delighted about that.

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London is not the whole country it may surprise you. We need to move on

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to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the

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rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to

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come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a

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proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to

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people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who

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come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a

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society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to

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address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come

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here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the

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numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for

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National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a

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Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not

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count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is

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shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free

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movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who

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want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the

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free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said

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it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming

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here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here

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and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is

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shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the

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British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net

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immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of

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fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year

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because we have no volume control and no quality control from

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immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP

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address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You

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do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single

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member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an

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MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of

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-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that

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worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not

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object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living

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standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But

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these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people

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running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year

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to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for

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benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to

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be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as

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to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other

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countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a

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state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British

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economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and

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benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And

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they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government

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has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.

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They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard

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Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to

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allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from

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2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and

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hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We

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make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional

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controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to

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re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,

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open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who

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was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted

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by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an

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under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have

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tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four

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years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour

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Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.

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Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and

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benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are

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going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if

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their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they

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have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country

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because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy

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politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no

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volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as

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if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money

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for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage

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workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have

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all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the

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health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current

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situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners

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with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their

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health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the

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health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's

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interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue

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collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health

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Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is

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a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and

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Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it

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through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't

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thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats

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support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on

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non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.

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No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you

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have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have

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people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,

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not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move

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on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to

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give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm

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Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to

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pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are

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guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the

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first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing

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national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening

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peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more

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powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has

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-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not

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Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small

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island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if

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that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send

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troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we

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have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his

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policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was

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waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. .

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Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a

:20:07.:20:10.

political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good

:20:11.:20:14.

foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU

:20:15.:20:21.

shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy

:20:22.:20:24.

that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would

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be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?

:20:30.:20:33.

No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible

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outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?

:20:39.:20:43.

What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.

:20:44.:20:49.

How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.

:20:50.:20:55.

Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel

:20:56.:20:59.

Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,

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"We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU

:21:05.:21:10.

taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards

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trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has

:21:14.:21:23.

the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its

:21:24.:21:28.

own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it

:21:29.:21:35.

want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the

:21:36.:21:40.

mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU

:21:41.:21:46.

policy. We had an Anglo French deal on Syria. A by lateral deal. A

:21:47.:21:52.

European dimension. No, buy lateral. We have a European Union that wants

:21:53.:21:57.

to expand ever-more into other people's spheres of influence. If we

:21:58.:22:01.

are going to stand up to what Putin is do, which obviously Nigel Farage

:22:02.:22:07.

has no intentions of doing, you have to get your act together on economic

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sanctions and diplomatic force and in trade matters, in supporting

:22:12.:22:15.

eastern European countries. Sayeria, who and whose army? And NATO and

:22:16.:22:21.

working transatlanticically, is important through NATO. I will come

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to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said that the idea of an EU Army was "A

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dangerous fantasy that is simply not true ""Why then, are we already

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working on etch U-owned and controlled drones -- EU-owned and

:22:38.:22:40.

the President of the European Parliament has said that the

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majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not

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speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will

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not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is

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President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which

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can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe

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because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks

:23:07.:23:11.

that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working

:23:12.:23:15.

together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO

:23:16.:23:21.

job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,

:23:22.:23:26.

in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each

:23:27.:23:31.

other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU

:23:32.:23:36.

has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps

:23:37.:23:39.

our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and

:23:40.:23:43.

would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out

:23:44.:23:48.

of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war

:23:49.:23:52.

Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within

:23:53.:23:56.

Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern

:23:57.:24:00.

borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more

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important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our

:24:06.:24:10.

borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about

:24:11.:24:13.

the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the

:24:14.:24:17.

European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.

:24:18.:24:25.

Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the

:24:26.:24:28.

right place with a British Foreign Secretary to decide our foreign

:24:29.:24:32.

policy. You say that, but can I quote David Cameron, this is germain

:24:33.:24:37.

to what you are saying, David Cameron said "There is no doubt that

:24:38.:24:42.

we are more powerful than Washington, Beijing and Delhi,

:24:43.:24:46.

because we are a powerful player in the European Union." Do you agree?

:24:47.:24:49.

He is saying that there are times when it comes to international

:24:50.:24:52.

foreign affairs when you have to cooperate with partners. Often they

:24:53.:24:56.

are EU partners but often they are not. The problem we have...

:24:57.:25:01.

Washington have made it very clear that it wants Britain to talk

:25:02.:25:08.

through Brussels. No, not at all. Talk through the French and

:25:09.:25:12.

Italians, come on, wake up? Through the EU collective. I'm vice chair of

:25:13.:25:17.

the EU delegation. I hear it from the American counterparts. They want

:25:18.:25:20.

the EU to get itself together and not least on Ukraine. Why should our

:25:21.:25:26.

sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? I want to hear from Syed calm

:25:27.:25:29.

amplgts the British Parliament is the right place to decide our

:25:30.:25:32.

foreign poll sinchts sometimes we work with our European partners

:25:33.:25:37.

sometimes we work with our non-European partners. It is our

:25:38.:25:40.

choice to pull sovereign trito work together. G, we move on to our foirt

:25:41.:25:47.

area. We hear a lot in this country about MPs expenses. Snted the real

:25:48.:25:55.

scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't the real scandal, the MEPs gravy

:25:56.:26:01.

train? You all have your snouts The trough? I don't think so. There is

:26:02.:26:07.

transpancy. The way we use our expenses is online and anyone can

:26:08.:26:10.

ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'

:26:11.:26:16.

allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in

:26:17.:26:19.

Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About

:26:20.:26:26.

5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the

:26:27.:26:30.

Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.

:26:31.:26:38.

But we voted for economy flutes We voted for European Parliament policy

:26:39.:26:43.

of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.

:26:44.:26:47.

They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand

:26:48.:26:53.

their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the

:26:54.:26:56.

gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance

:26:57.:27:03.

because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are

:27:04.:27:06.

there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim

:27:07.:27:10.

the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their

:27:11.:27:14.

MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for

:27:15.:27:19.

today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I

:27:20.:27:23.

have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going

:27:24.:27:29.

in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.

:27:30.:27:36.

-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick

:27:37.:27:41.

O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls

:27:42.:27:46.

today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip

:27:47.:27:51.

crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'

:27:52.:27:56.

fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.

:27:57.:28:01.

Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and

:28:02.:28:05.

he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling

:28:06.:28:08.

other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I

:28:09.:28:15.

have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not

:28:16.:28:18.

entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and

:28:19.:28:24.

the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue

:28:25.:28:27.

the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain

:28:28.:28:30.

out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work

:28:31.:28:37.

Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political

:28:38.:28:41.

party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way

:28:42.:28:47.

before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of

:28:48.:28:52.

course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should

:28:53.:28:55.

do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates

:28:56.:29:00.

and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling

:29:01.:29:03.

out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry

:29:04.:29:08.

found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week

:29:09.:29:12.

in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called

:29:13.:29:17.

the police fascists. These people aren't here.

:29:18.:29:23.

I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let

:29:24.:29:27.

him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent

:29:28.:29:31.

down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but

:29:32.:29:37.

now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad

:29:38.:29:44.

you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they

:29:45.:29:48.

are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in

:29:49.:29:54.

all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is

:29:55.:30:00.

a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on

:30:01.:30:06.

expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every

:30:07.:30:09.

year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives

:30:10.:30:13.

also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to

:30:14.:30:16.

investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make

:30:17.:30:20.

each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign

:30:21.:30:25.

a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.

:30:26.:30:29.

Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you

:30:30.:30:34.

confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is

:30:35.:30:39.

about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about

:30:40.:30:44.

the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's

:30:45.:30:49.

regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund

:30:50.:30:53.

to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most

:30:54.:30:57.

destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I

:30:58.:31:01.

tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from

:31:02.:31:04.

claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these

:31:05.:31:08.

European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.

:31:09.:31:18.

Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to

:31:19.:31:26.

make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the

:31:27.:31:29.

Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European

:31:30.:31:33.

elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers

:31:34.:31:38.

bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free

:31:39.:31:45.

banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people

:31:46.:31:51.

are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build

:31:52.:31:54.

a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she

:31:55.:32:02.

right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,

:32:03.:32:07.

thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of

:32:08.:32:10.

the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards

:32:11.:32:15.

getting a new sustainable world It is the political will to use these

:32:16.:32:19.

powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour

:32:20.:32:23.

reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the

:32:24.:32:27.

budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those

:32:28.:32:31.

things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open But

:32:32.:32:38.

against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more

:32:39.:32:43.

treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah

:32:44.:32:48.

Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that

:32:49.:32:53.

should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is

:32:54.:32:59.

concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create

:33:00.:33:03.

more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our

:33:04.:33:09.

exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and

:33:10.:33:15.

Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU

:33:16.:33:18.

legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers

:33:19.:33:26.

or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it

:33:27.:33:35.

slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be

:33:36.:33:38.

funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie

:33:39.:33:44.

me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This

:33:45.:33:49.

is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on

:33:50.:33:53.

things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not

:33:54.:33:57.

have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to

:33:58.:34:03.

join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to

:34:04.:34:11.

still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to

:34:12.:34:15.

join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now

:34:16.:34:19.

is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has

:34:20.:34:27.

advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not

:34:28.:34:31.

in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our

:34:32.:34:36.

relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we

:34:37.:34:41.

left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek

:34:42.:34:45.

partnership in specific serious I'd tell you what, can I just say..

:34:46.:34:50.

Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are

:34:51.:34:53.

the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke

:34:54.:34:58.

trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on

:34:59.:35:03.

services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export

:35:04.:35:08.

market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would

:35:09.:35:12.

have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I

:35:13.:35:17.

read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free

:35:18.:35:22.

trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand

:35:23.:35:27.

no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr

:35:28.:35:33.

business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that

:35:34.:35:37.

and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any

:35:38.:35:43.

say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is

:35:44.:35:47.

enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:

:35:48.:35:54.

Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of

:35:55.:36:01.

powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus

:36:02.:36:08.

driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because

:36:09.:36:11.

he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said

:36:12.:36:14.

to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that

:36:15.:36:18.

something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not

:36:19.:36:22.

yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout

:36:23.:36:25.

mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European

:36:26.:36:30.

treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we

:36:31.:36:36.

did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the

:36:37.:36:40.

European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They

:36:41.:36:45.

say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we

:36:46.:36:48.

are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain

:36:49.:36:53.

because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now

:36:54.:37:04.

have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are

:37:05.:37:10.

allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People

:37:11.:37:15.

should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking

:37:16.:37:19.

because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.

:37:20.:37:25.

I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to

:37:26.:37:28.

debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're

:37:29.:37:31.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who

:37:32.:37:34.

??NEWINE Hello and welcome to your Scotland. Coming up here in twenty

:37:35.:37:54.

??NEWINE Hello and welcome to your local part of the show, our final

:37:55.:37:58.

one before an Easter break. This week ` Cumbria's introducing them,

:37:59.:38:01.

Northumberland is scrapping them, what are they? Parking charges, of

:38:02.:38:04.

course. But which council h`s got it right? Here in the studio whth me

:38:05.:38:10.

are the Newcastle Labour MP Chi Onwurah, and North Tyneside

:38:11.:38:12.

Conservative Judith Wallace. And a little later we'll be meeting the

:38:13.:38:16.

teenagers at school in Berwhck who've got a vote on Scottish

:38:17.:38:17.

Independence. But we start with the news that the

:38:18.:38:21.

North East is to get its own regional minister, and the North

:38:22.:38:25.

West, too. But only if Labotr wins the General Election. Ed Miliband

:38:26.:38:28.

made the promise this week `s part of a package of measures whhch he

:38:29.:38:32.

says will give towns and cities like Sunderland, Carlisle and

:38:33.:38:34.

Middlesbrough more power to run their own affairs.

:38:35.:38:37.

Newcastle MP Nick Brown had the job of Minister for the North E`st in

:38:38.:38:40.

the last Labour Government. He said it was a chance to influencd

:38:41.:38:44.

decisions at the heart of power Far and away, the most important

:38:45.:38:47.

thing that I was able to contribute was to be the region's advocate

:38:48.:38:50.

within Government, not making requests of them from the ottside,

:38:51.:38:56.

but being on the inside. It was part of the decision`making procdss.

:38:57.:38:59.

Scotland and Wales have that institutionalised, and I thhnk it is

:39:00.:39:02.

important for a region like the North East that has problems of its

:39:03.:39:13.

own to have the same thing. Chi Onwurah, you didn't hear it

:39:14.:39:17.

there, but he ruled himself out of doing it again, do you fancx it I

:39:18.:39:26.

think it is a great thing for the North East and I think it whll be a

:39:27.:39:31.

great role and given the situation we are likely to be in after the

:39:32.:39:34.

next election, we know we are spending 500 times more on transport

:39:35.:39:38.

in London, for example, than we are in Newcastle. We know we ard

:39:39.:39:41.

spending more in the arts and other infrastructure in the South East

:39:42.:39:45.

than here in the North East. Having someone who is in Government, at the

:39:46.:39:49.

heart, able to speak up for the region and make sure that wd get the

:39:50.:39:52.

resources that we need, and also that our businesses are recognised,

:39:53.:39:56.

as well. It is not all about resources, it is about championing

:39:57.:40:00.

us as an investment area. All of that, it would be a great job. OK,

:40:01.:40:05.

but every region is going to get one of his ministers. `` these

:40:06.:40:10.

ministers. Including the Sotth East, so it does not mean we will get

:40:11.:40:13.

special treatment, does it? I don't think the North East wants special

:40:14.:40:17.

treatment... It sounds like you did there. It's not special... We're

:40:18.:40:20.

being badly treated now as we are not getting a fair share of

:40:21.:40:25.

resources. 500 times more on transport in the South East. The

:40:26.:40:28.

North East want its voice loud and proud in the centre of Westlinster.

:40:29.:40:33.

You notice that what the Tories have done, or what the Coalition

:40:34.:40:37.

Government has done, is to `ppoint a minister for Portsmouth bec`use

:40:38.:40:39.

Portsmouth has had the terrhble closures on the docks, but for

:40:40.:40:43.

nowhere else. I think the North East and the other regions deserve to

:40:44.:40:48.

have their voice heard. This is about devolution of power to the

:40:49.:40:52.

regions. You shake your head, is it a good idea to have somebodx at the

:40:53.:40:55.

heart of Government? There `re not many northern ministers in the

:40:56.:40:58.

Coalition Government. I think this new policy announced by Ed Liliband

:40:59.:41:02.

is a very good illustration of the differences between the Labour

:41:03.:41:04.

approach and the Conservative approach. The Conservative `pproach

:41:05.:41:09.

is increasing prosperity for all of us and is to encourage business

:41:10.:41:13.

From business growth, we will all benefit. Businesses taking on more

:41:14.:41:17.

staff, businesses investing in training. Businesses taking on more

:41:18.:41:23.

premises and all that stuff. Can a minister not shout about th`t? No, I

:41:24.:41:29.

don't think so. I think this should be business lead.

:41:30.:41:32.

Ed Miliband, what he is doing is addressing a problem that hd was

:41:33.:41:36.

partly to blame for. He is trying to answer it with yesterday 's

:41:37.:41:38.

solutions. The Region Development Agency specifically tasked with

:41:39.:41:41.

trying to even out divisions between North and South and it faildd

:41:42.:41:51.

miserably. The Conservatives have encouraged business and that is

:41:52.:41:57.

where growth comes from. He is proposing ?20 billion to be passed

:41:58.:42:01.

on to town halls and authorhties in the regions. That would surdly be

:42:02.:42:06.

welcomed. I think it's bettdr to increase... Instead of incrdasing

:42:07.:42:08.

taxes, it is better to encotrage business, because that is where the

:42:09.:42:11.

growth comes from. The Government has been very practical abott this.

:42:12.:42:15.

What they have done is work with business to remove regulations, to

:42:16.:42:21.

lower taxes. For example, jtst this week we have seen the introduction

:42:22.:42:24.

of a ?2000 saving for emploxers in national insurance. Words are cheap,

:42:25.:42:27.

that is the other problem. The Government has promised this, but

:42:28.:42:31.

not delivered. By saying we have a Regional Minister, that is `

:42:32.:42:34.

promise, a commitment to how we will make that delivery. Politichans have

:42:35.:42:37.

made plenty of commitments, but carry on. This is important, but the

:42:38.:42:40.

fact is that the inward invdstment in the Business Department, they can

:42:41.:42:44.

meet all their targets by staying within the M25. It is not strprising

:42:45.:42:55.

that they don't. They should champion business in the North, as

:42:56.:42:59.

Nick Brown did. To champion business, we need a Regional

:43:00.:43:02.

Minister and we also need a strong voice. Not at all, you champion

:43:03.:43:09.

business by working with businesses to see how you can encouragd them,

:43:10.:43:13.

how you can provide the right conditions. They don't do that in

:43:14.:43:19.

Whitehall. I think it is not true. We have had the red tape

:43:20.:43:22.

challenges. 800 regulations being scrapped, a further 3000 re`dy to

:43:23.:43:25.

go. Just recently, the wastd transfer notices, that was 23

:43:26.:43:28.

million bits of paper every year to be produced and to be stored and it

:43:29.:43:32.

has been scrapped ` now a shmplified online system. It makes bushness

:43:33.:43:38.

more profitable. Very briefly. Businesses need investment `nd

:43:39.:43:40.

support, deregulation is grdat, but to get businesses going we need to

:43:41.:43:44.

have the banks lending and people being championed.

:43:45.:43:50.

OK. And a Regional Minister does not solve that. We won't agree on that.

:43:51.:43:55.

Now, councils are up against it we know that, with millions of pounds

:43:56.:43:59.

of savings to be made. So it's perhaps no surprise that in Cumbria

:44:00.:44:02.

the County Council has decided to introduce on`street car parking

:44:03.:44:05.

charges. It's unpopular, but it s an attempt to raise vital cash to keep

:44:06.:44:07.

services running. A week in and it is already proving

:44:08.:44:22.

a popular policy. I was elated, I did not know it was

:44:23.:44:26.

free, so went to put the money in and I saw the cover was on. Really

:44:27.:44:33.

good. Wonderful. Very welcole. I hope it attracts visitors. We have

:44:34.:44:38.

only just discovered it tod`y. We came from Liverpool yesterd`y, so we

:44:39.:44:41.

were delighted. Local traders are hoping it will boost business.

:44:42.:44:46.

Retail is very difficult at the moment. We need more people. We have

:44:47.:44:51.

to wait and see ` see what sort of results we get. Free parking will

:44:52.:45:01.

cost the County Council mord than ?2 million. It has not been rolled out

:45:02.:45:10.

everywhere. Six parish councils are going to carry on charging `s they

:45:11.:45:13.

say it helps with traffic management. The County Council says

:45:14.:45:16.

free parking will bring bendfits. We have looked at the circumst`nces in

:45:17.:45:19.

our county, Northumberland, and we think that this may be a solution

:45:20.:45:22.

for businesses through the recession, as well as maint`ining

:45:23.:45:25.

viable High Streets for the residents to use. I hope it works.

:45:26.:45:29.

If not, we will go to the drawing board. Over the border in Ctmbria,

:45:30.:45:36.

the tide is turning the othdr way. After years of free on`stredt

:45:37.:45:39.

parking, the county council's bringing in charges. Due to the

:45:40.:45:46.

austerity measures, the budget cuts, unprecedented cuts that councils are

:45:47.:45:49.

facing, we are just hoping to recover costs, not to make loney,

:45:50.:45:57.

we're just recovering costs. The changes aren't welcome. Not

:45:58.:46:01.

impressed. As a businessman in the town, I have a business down the

:46:02.:46:05.

street, it is just trying to get more money out of the gener`l

:46:06.:46:12.

public. I think it will put people off coming in. If you just need to

:46:13.:46:19.

nip in and nip to the bank, you will think twice. The arguments for and

:46:20.:46:22.

against charging for parking seemed compelling, whether it is town

:46:23.:46:25.

centre recovery or council budget balancing. In a year's time, Cumbria

:46:26.:46:28.

or Northumberland could be rueing their decision.

:46:29.:46:41.

Cutting parking charges, elhminating them, is this something you have

:46:42.:46:46.

considered? Is it something that should be considered? When the

:46:47.:46:51.

Conservatives were in chargd, we introduced two hours of fred

:46:52.:46:56.

parking. We felt that was a welcome contribution to encouraging people

:46:57.:46:59.

to come into the town to have a look around and have a coughing. I think

:47:00.:47:05.

that is important. As counchls are now looking at other measurds and

:47:06.:47:08.

Northumberland is an interesting example, I think the situathon

:47:09.:47:12.

should be reviewed. Having worked in small businesses, I know how

:47:13.:47:17.

important it is. If you havd free parking, that is often raisdd. I

:47:18.:47:26.

think it is concerning, but a suggestion that was suggestdd at the

:47:27.:47:29.

last council meeting that wd should follow Northumberland's lead was

:47:30.:47:36.

treated with derision. Councils don't have the money. The rdason

:47:37.:47:41.

that grants are being produced is that the Government is trying to

:47:42.:47:44.

sort out the financial mess that the Labour left us. So councils cannot

:47:45.:47:51.

do anything about it. SUNY to manage your resources better. We h`ve

:47:52.:47:55.

introduced share services whth Northumberland. `` you need to.

:47:56.:47:59.

Could you see this happening in Newcastle? Just to say that the

:48:00.:48:07.

Northern councils are being cut disproportionately in comparison

:48:08.:48:10.

with ones in the South. But I think it is important is to get the

:48:11.:48:17.

balance right. Alive after five initiative is all about encouraging

:48:18.:48:21.

people into the city at night to shop, to increase the econoly. But

:48:22.:48:28.

you are competing with the Letro Centre. That is right. And Newcastle

:48:29.:48:36.

has other attractions, as wdll, and it has Eldon Square which h`s the

:48:37.:48:42.

highest football in the country outside London. It is important to

:48:43.:48:48.

get the balance right. Is the balance right at the moment? I get a

:48:49.:48:55.

lot of complaints from constituents about parking, particularly parking

:48:56.:48:59.

at the weekend, whether charges remain the same. I think it is

:49:00.:49:03.

important is to keep the situation under review. I will be raising this

:49:04.:49:09.

as an issue with the council. But I think we do have the balancd more or

:49:10.:49:15.

less right, I hope we can dhscuss ways going forward, not with the

:49:16.:49:19.

pressure... Not because of cost saving or because we don't have the

:49:20.:49:23.

money, but because it is important for the local economy and it is

:49:24.:49:27.

important for encouraging ptblic transport. Now, campaigning has

:49:28.:49:32.

begun for the European elections in May, and first out of the blocks

:49:33.:49:36.

this week were the Liberal Democrats. Their party preshdent and

:49:37.:49:38.

Cumbrian MP Tim Farron was hn Newcastle on Wednesday to l`unch the

:49:39.:49:42.

campaign. But perhaps their keenness to get out there might be connected

:49:43.:49:45.

with the struggle they might have to retain their existing seat hn the

:49:46.:49:49.

North East. I put it to Tim Farron that this was all about dam`ge

:49:50.:49:53.

limitation. They are a funny thing this time.

:49:54.:49:56.

The European elections, the first time in living memory they `re about

:49:57.:50:00.

Europe and the choice the pdople have is very clear. UKIP, for all

:50:01.:50:03.

that I think they are wrong and risking the 150,000 jobs in the

:50:04.:50:07.

North East that depend on Etrope, nevertheless they have a cldar

:50:08.:50:10.

position. If you want to le`ve the European Union, you vote UKHP. If

:50:11.:50:14.

however you think those jobs are worth fighting for, and Britain s

:50:15.:50:17.

role in the world is worth fighting for, and the peace and security is

:50:18.:50:21.

worth fighting for, there's only one party that is party of in. This is a

:50:22.:50:26.

two horse race in many ways` if you vote Labour or Tory, your vote will

:50:27.:50:32.

be wasted. You would like to think that, but the polls suggest that

:50:33.:50:35.

most people don't agree with you and they won't vote Liberal Democrat. We

:50:36.:50:41.

saw the polls after the Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage contest, and I

:50:42.:50:44.

thought our guy won, but thd majority of people felt that they

:50:45.:50:49.

supported the other guy. We know that we have picked the unpopular

:50:50.:50:54.

argument in this contest. That is your problem, isn't it? People are

:50:55.:51:02.

sceptical. People are hostile to it. Correct. I think people are

:51:03.:51:05.

undecided about the European Union and whether our place is in it. But

:51:06.:51:09.

others think, hang about, the EU is not perfect, there is a lot wrong

:51:10.:51:12.

with it, but the world outshde is dangerous and not least dangerous

:51:13.:51:16.

for our jobs here in the North of England. So Nick showed real bravery

:51:17.:51:20.

by taking the unpopular sidd of the argument and nevertheless one in

:51:21.:51:23.

three people agree with Nick on that issue and that is all we nedd to

:51:24.:51:27.

retain our seats. We will sde if you are right about voters' intdntions,

:51:28.:51:31.

you know that a lot of your colleagues have lost their seats,

:51:32.:51:33.

they have lost their seats hn Newcastle. How long can that keep

:51:34.:51:38.

happening and you can justify being in coalition? We were at Grdy's

:51:39.:51:41.

Monument, celebrating a gre`t Liberal Prime Minister. In 0900 it

:51:42.:51:52.

was the last time that therd was a Liberal Democrat midterm, so we know

:51:53.:51:56.

we knew were in Government, it's a hard thing to do to defend council

:51:57.:52:03.

seat up and down the countrx. Here in Newcastle, we have disappointing

:52:04.:52:07.

results in 2011, good results in 2012. There is clear progress. We're

:52:08.:52:12.

expecting to defend what we've got, to begin and my confidence

:52:13.:52:16.

prediction is that before this decade is out, the Liberal Democrats

:52:17.:52:20.

will regain control of Newc`stle City Council. There is a cldar

:52:21.:52:24.

message across the North East, slightly different to the Etropean

:52:25.:52:29.

elections, there is an uneldcted monolith that controls peoples

:52:30.:52:32.

lives, it is not Europe, is the Labour Party.

:52:33.:52:35.

Cumbrian MP Tim Farron. And we'll be speaking to European election

:52:36.:52:38.

candidates from all the main parties on the programme next month.

:52:39.:52:41.

Now, staying with voting and when Scotland goes to the polls hn

:52:42.:52:44.

September to decide whether to go independent, 16 and 17`year`olds

:52:45.:52:48.

will for the first time be `ble to cast a vote.

:52:49.:52:50.

And that means the referendtm is a hot topic in school classroom on the

:52:51.:52:54.

Borders where some teenage pupils will be voting, while friends living

:52:55.:52:57.

in England have no say. Davhd Rhodes reports.

:52:58.:53:03.

800 pupils go to the school, the majority live in England. A small

:53:04.:53:07.

number cross every day. That means that some 16 and 17`year`olds here

:53:08.:53:10.

will make history in September by casting a vote in the Scotthsh

:53:11.:53:16.

independence referendum. Yasmin lives in Coldstream and is one of

:53:17.:53:20.

those having her say on Scotland's future. I will probably be voting no

:53:21.:53:25.

because of the fact that I don't think that the country has dnough

:53:26.:53:28.

information. Information on what they plan to do if they do get

:53:29.:53:36.

independence. Alanis, who is also 17, lives in Berwick. Her f`mily

:53:37.:53:39.

comes from Glasgow, but livhng in England means she does not get a

:53:40.:53:50.

vote. About half of us do, `nd half of us don't. It makes is

:53:51.:53:54.

frustrating, because it will have as much of an impact on us as them

:53:55.:53:58.

Will giving 16 and 17`year`olds a vote in the referendum encotrage

:53:59.:54:01.

teenagers to get more involved in politics? I think the reason why

:54:02.:54:06.

many young people don't havd that much interest in politics or who is

:54:07.:54:09.

in charge of them, basicallx, is because of the fact that parties do

:54:10.:54:18.

not reach out to us young pdople. The Government has no plans to give

:54:19.:54:22.

under 18s the vote in next xear s general election. If a future

:54:23.:54:24.

Government took that step, the headteacher here is not convinced

:54:25.:54:28.

there will be much impact. H think there is a tendency for young people

:54:29.:54:32.

to be very influenced by thdir parents and their parents'

:54:33.:54:38.

politics. As people get olddr, they are influenced by a much grdater

:54:39.:54:46.

collection of ideas. So if the voting age was lowered, you don t

:54:47.:54:49.

think it would make a difference? I think there is a danger it just

:54:50.:54:53.

becomes an extra vote for their parentss. Whatever the outcome, one

:54:54.:54:56.

thing is certain, Yasmin and teenagers like her will plax their

:54:57.:54:59.

role in deciding whether a 300`year`old political union should

:55:00.:55:07.

be maintained. Scotland has given its 16`ydar`olds

:55:08.:55:14.

the chance to vote, should we? Absolutely. If we are in power, we

:55:15.:55:20.

would give 16 and 17`year`olds the right to vote. I was in a school in

:55:21.:55:23.

my constituency on Friday t`lking to 16 and 17 and 18`year`olds, and they

:55:24.:55:29.

are looking at complex formtlas studying history and doing lany

:55:30.:55:35.

challenging topics. They can pay taxes, they can work, so thdy

:55:36.:55:42.

deserve, I think, they have good articulate voices, and they deserve

:55:43.:55:49.

the right to express them. @lso if it is part of school would heighten

:55:50.:55:53.

citizenship training, it is an opportunity to show the importance

:55:54.:56:00.

of voting. Do you agree or other concerns about whether they are

:56:01.:56:07.

mature enough? My personal view is that it is too young. You c`nnot buy

:56:08.:56:11.

cigarettes or alcohol, I thhnk it is too young. But what is important is

:56:12.:56:18.

that we do explain carefullx to school students how local

:56:19.:56:24.

institutions work. How Parlhament works. I think it is a great pity

:56:25.:56:31.

that there are not groups of young socialists and Young Conservatives

:56:32.:56:36.

when I was young. There may be if you gave them the vote. We did not

:56:37.:56:43.

have the vote and we had th`t. It is important for children to gdt

:56:44.:56:45.

involved in debating and thhngs like that. A lot of petitions ard only

:56:46.:56:52.

entered by people in the independent sector. `` competitions. It is an

:56:53.:56:56.

opportunity to get people to stand up for their views and incrdase

:56:57.:57:02.

their confidence. Giving thd vote is one thing, but a lot would say that

:57:03.:57:06.

politicians don't listen to young people. You are right there. Having

:57:07.:57:13.

the vote is one way of making sure that politicians listen to what the

:57:14.:57:19.

voters are saying. But it is true and I agree that politicians also

:57:20.:57:24.

need to engage more with yotng people on the issues that mdan

:57:25.:57:27.

something to young people. Where I don't agree is that young pdople

:57:28.:57:34.

cannot smoke or buy alcohol, that is dangerous, those are harmful, but

:57:35.:57:39.

democracy is not harmful, it is empowering, liberating and so giving

:57:40.:57:45.

them the voice to ensure th`t they get the attention of politicians

:57:46.:57:51.

should empower young people. And maybe renew our democracy which has

:57:52.:57:55.

many issues with it at the loment. Given that young people with the

:57:56.:58:00.

vote do not have a particul`rly high turnout, I don't think how xou will

:58:01.:58:04.

improve that by lowering thd age to 16.

:58:05.:58:07.

Now, for a look at the rest of the week's news and of all the lany cuts

:58:08.:58:11.

councils have made, shutting care homes must be among the most

:58:12.:58:13.

contentious, especially for the elderly residents and their

:58:14.:58:16.

families. It's an issue which has come up again this week in County

:58:17.:58:20.

Durham. Here's more on that, and the rest of the week's news in 60

:58:21.:58:27.

seconds. The new look seafront at Whhtley Bay

:58:28.:58:31.

has been opened by an MP. It was paid for in part by the

:58:32.:58:34.

Government's coastal communhties fund. Durham Council is to close its

:58:35.:58:41.

five remaining care homes, ht says they will cost more than ?4 million

:58:42.:58:47.

to renovate. The MP for South Shields has challenged the Prime

:58:48.:58:52.

Minister on the right of a disabled constituent. You'll my constituent

:58:53.:58:55.

suffers from MEF has been w`iting over nine months for her personal

:58:56.:59:00.

independence payments. She now has to borrow from her 84`year`old

:59:01.:59:04.

mother to get by. Why does the Prime Minister think this is acceptable?

:59:05.:59:09.

Or delays in these payments are not acceptable and we have to m`ke sure

:59:10.:59:14.

that benefits are paid on thme. Finally, ?57 million, that hs how

:59:15.:59:17.

much North East firms are gdtting in the latest round of the govdrnor

:59:18.:59:20.

to's growth fund, more than any other region in the country.

:59:21.:59:28.

And, finally, you can rest dasy this afternoon. The leader of thd SNP

:59:29.:59:34.

Alex Salmond has ruled out `ny intention to annexe Cumbria and

:59:35.:59:36.

Northumberland. The question of Scotland's territorial ambitions was

:59:37.:59:39.

raised by a reporter during a Wall Street Journal press conferdnce in

:59:40.:59:44.

New York. There are some northern England

:59:45.:59:47.

counties that don't feel a lot of love from London. Places like

:59:48.:59:52.

Cumbria and Northumberland. Would you take them into Scotland? We have

:59:53.:59:59.

gone from fragmentation to expansion. Actually, the botndaries

:00:00.:00:08.

of Scotland and England which were disputed in the middle ages are

:00:09.:00:12.

actually long`standing boundaries just about on her. `` the most. I

:00:13.:00:17.

have no territorial demands So the invasion is off, that's a

:00:18.:00:23.

relief. Which means we can safely go off on our Easter break. We'll

:00:24.:00:26.

return here on BBC One on M`y fourth. I'll still be standhng guard

:00:27.:00:30.

though so don't forget I'm on Twitter if you want to keep up with

:00:31.:00:34.

what's going on back now to Andrew for the rest of the show.

:00:35.:00:37.

risk. We have run out of time. - particular candidates. Back to you,

:00:38.:00:47.

Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the

:00:48.:00:50.

London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.

:00:51.:00:53.

Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.

:00:54.:01:04.

We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the

:01:05.:01:08.

debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to

:01:09.:01:13.

bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four

:01:14.:01:18.

parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know

:01:19.:01:21.

much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament

:01:22.:01:26.

works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of

:01:27.:01:34.

light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not

:01:35.:01:38.

going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing

:01:39.:01:45.

that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are

:01:46.:01:50.

not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks

:01:51.:01:55.

lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that

:01:56.:01:58.

because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP

:01:59.:02:04.

and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the

:02:05.:02:10.

issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these

:02:11.:02:14.

individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because

:02:15.:02:17.

these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of

:02:18.:02:22.

making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know

:02:23.:02:29.

the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong

:02:30.:02:32.

opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the

:02:33.:02:36.

immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at

:02:37.:02:43.

that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this

:02:44.:02:47.

European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on

:02:48.:02:50.

the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much

:02:51.:02:54.

from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these

:02:55.:02:57.

televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that

:02:58.:03:04.

Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each

:03:05.:03:11.

man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man

:03:12.:03:15.

can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an

:03:16.:03:21.

elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold

:03:22.:03:24.

the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse

:03:25.:03:28.

incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before

:03:29.:03:33.

the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much

:03:34.:03:36.

to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the

:03:37.:03:40.

elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against

:03:41.:03:44.

Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that

:03:45.:03:47.

format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the

:03:48.:03:55.

polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between

:03:56.:04:01.

UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and

:04:02.:04:04.

we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both

:04:05.:04:09.

of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news

:04:10.:04:13.

for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of

:04:14.:04:20.

the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre

:04:21.:04:25.

election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not

:04:26.:04:29.

clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too

:04:30.:04:34.

disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr

:04:35.:04:41.

Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars

:04:42.:04:47.

away, what are the consequences I think there is a widespread

:04:48.:04:49.

expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come

:04:50.:04:56.

first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great

:04:57.:04:58.

deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is

:04:59.:05:02.

remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal

:05:03.:05:07.

leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently

:05:08.:05:14.

very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back

:05:15.:05:18.

to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was

:05:19.:05:23.

miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics

:05:24.:05:29.

that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come

:05:30.:05:34.

third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory

:05:35.:05:38.

backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes,

:05:39.:05:42.

complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June,

:05:43.:05:51.

I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron s

:05:52.:05:53.

personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on

:05:54.:05:57.

conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence

:05:58.:06:03.

of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls

:06:04.:06:10.

today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel

:06:11.:06:15.

Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster

:06:16.:06:22.

for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But

:06:23.:06:26.

he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great

:06:27.:06:32.

deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good

:06:33.:06:38.

thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.

:06:39.:06:43.

That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%

:06:44.:06:50.

in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he

:06:51.:06:52.

knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that

:06:53.:06:56.

have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they

:06:57.:07:02.

do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it

:07:03.:07:07.

support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their

:07:08.:07:11.

MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out

:07:12.:07:18.

for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of

:07:19.:07:21.

the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence

:07:22.:07:25.

of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple

:07:26.:07:28.

of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because

:07:29.:07:33.

Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable

:07:34.:07:36.

is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate

:07:37.:07:41.

at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny

:07:42.:07:44.

Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate

:07:45.:07:47.

either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If

:07:48.:07:53.

they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits

:07:54.:08:00.

score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or

:08:01.:08:03.

another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader

:08:04.:08:09.

of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in

:08:10.:08:14.

the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to

:08:15.:08:17.

me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership

:08:18.:08:23.

talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you

:08:24.:08:28.

have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The

:08:29.:08:34.

grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they

:08:35.:08:38.

lose their network of activists who they need to fight the next

:08:39.:08:42.

election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it

:08:43.:08:45.

would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency.

:08:46.:08:52.

Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be

:08:53.:08:56.

different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto

:08:57.:09:01.

the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where

:09:02.:09:06.

does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this

:09:07.:09:10.

time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not

:09:11.:09:14.

win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit

:09:15.:09:20.

of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases

:09:21.:09:24.

is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually

:09:25.:09:30.

winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when

:09:31.:09:33.

they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an

:09:34.:09:36.

interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a

:09:37.:09:40.

number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put

:09:41.:09:46.

them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a

:09:47.:09:52.

legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just

:09:53.:09:55.

because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet

:09:56.:10:03.

the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that

:10:04.:10:08.

many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You

:10:09.:10:11.

wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he

:10:12.:10:15.

was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and

:10:16.:10:18.

dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation

:10:19.:10:21.

they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let

:10:22.:10:25.

somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they

:10:26.:10:29.

are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange

:10:30.:10:34.

story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.

:10:35.:10:38.

If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let

:10:39.:10:45.

the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases

:10:46.:10:48.

because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is

:10:49.:10:56.

so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing

:10:57.:10:58.

him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are

:10:59.:11:04.

falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their

:11:05.:11:06.

abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the

:11:07.:11:11.

kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem

:11:12.:11:16.

a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed

:11:17.:11:20.

to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific

:11:21.:11:23.

crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has

:11:24.:11:27.

no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that

:11:28.:11:31.

has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had

:11:32.:11:34.

Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as

:11:35.:11:37.

bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people

:11:38.:11:41.

suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in

:11:42.:11:44.

Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically,

:11:45.:11:48.

Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this

:11:49.:11:55.

true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you

:11:56.:11:59.

were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it

:12:00.:12:05.

right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his

:12:06.:12:09.

opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of

:12:10.:12:16.

this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain

:12:17.:12:21.

about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it

:12:22.:12:24.

is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is

:12:25.:12:30.

it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.

:12:31.:12:34.

Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.

:12:35.:12:37.

But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly

:12:38.:12:43.

changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation

:12:44.:12:49.

and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot

:12:50.:12:53.

going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the

:12:54.:12:57.

BBC In 2013, the public voted for

:12:58.:14:01.

a portrait of At times he's interesting,

:14:02.:14:03.

at times he's very funny,

:14:04.:14:13.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew chairs a special debate ahead of the European elections with representatives from UKIP, Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.


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