04/05/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being

re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police

custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders

of the Troubles. That's our top story.

He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious

electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative

Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.

And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best

looking party leader and the most likely to be a good cook.

looking party leader and the most In the North East and Cumbria, UKIP

and Labour candidates go head to head in the studio.

And we get the views on immigration from the Eastern Europeans living

and full of Euro candidates here to

debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and

the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis

and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs

into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,

President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after

he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more

than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is

politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European

election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,

Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for

policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean

McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the

Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was

kidnapped from her home in December 1972, never to be seen alive again.

The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her

and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the

former IRA commander Brendan Hughes pointed the finger at Gerry Adams,

claiming: In April this year, either Bell was

charged with aiding and abetting the murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams

has always insisted he is innocent of any part in the abduction and

killing all burial of Mrs McConville.

We were hoping to speak to the Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa

Villiers, but having agreed to do an interview with us this morning, she

pulled out. But we are joined from Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And the police just doing their job by

questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams said publicly some time ago that he

was available to speak to the police, but that is not what this is

about at the moment, because what we have here is clearly evidence in our

mind of political interference in what should be due process. Gerry

Adams made it clear some time ago he wanted to speak to the police, it

was available at any time, and yet that request was not taken up until

three weeks into an election and we believe that was deliberately

orchestrated by a small number of people. What evidence can you

present this morning that proves that claim? The direct circumstances

Gerry Adams finds himself in at the moment, take that in stark contrast

when they have dealt with members of the British Army for instance...

That is just circumstantial. The PSNI know that the soldiers involved

in that and a number of other high-profile killings of citizens

here, and not one of those people has been arrested. In fact any of

the people who were interviewed were interviewed by request. There was a

stark contrast, in terms of how they have dealt with the British military

involving state killings. We haven't got too much time. Sinn Fein said it

would review its support for the PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That

sounds like political interference in the police process. It's not

because we have a clear mandate from the people who elect us. Policing

has been an important part of the peace process here for many years,

Sinn Fein plays an important role in local policing partnerships. We

negotiate to make sure we have powers transferred here to elected

representatives in the north. It is a long way to go before we have

policing highly accountable, and making sure they deliver a very

impartial service. How will he react if Gerry Adams is charged? I am

still trying to get a clear answer. If Gerry Adams is charged, will you

withdraw support for the Northern Ireland police service? We view this

as a serious situation and a serious ongoing situation and we will

monitor how this pans out. We have a very important role to play to

support the police service here. We have done consistently, worked with

them on a daily basis, but we will not accept political interference by

a small number of people in the police who are undermining the

police. We will not accept political policing. If there was evidence, and

I emphasise the word if, because we have seen none, but if there were

evidence to justify Gerry Adams being charged, why should he not be

charged? It is my understanding from the family of Gerry Adams that there

has not been a single shred of evidence put forward. I understand

that, but if there was evidence, why should he not be charged? You put

that caveat yourself and then you expect me to speculate, there is no

way I will do that. The fact of the matter is there hasn't been one

single shred of evidence put to Gerry Adams in the last few days, in

fact what has been put to him is a range of issues of newspaper

cuttings, books, statements made from people, including from people

who didn't want their statements released until they have died.

who didn't want their statements was charged, again I emphasise the

word if, does the police process fall apart? The police process is a

fragile entity, it requires work and we have been saying this publicly

and privately with the Irish and British

and privately with the Irish and process has to be nurtured and

developed. We are not out of the woods yet. From a Republican point

of view we have been working flat out. I just wanted a quick answer to

my question, is a yes or no? What question I asking me? Is the peace

process in jeopardy? It is fragile and I am not going to have words put

into my mouth but I don't want to use. It has to be worked out and

nurtured. Thank you for joining us. Nick Watt, you were a Northern

Ireland correspondent like myself in days gone by. Where is this going to

go? It shows how challenging the peace process is because on the one

hand you have the unspeakable pain of the McConville family, but you

also have the danger of not having mechanisms to deal with the past.

South Africa is a good example, you have to have some mechanism to deal

with the past because if you don't, you are going to have, as Sinn Fein

have now, someone in a police cell but you don't have the arrests of

the Bloody Sunday soldiers. Paramilitary prisoners were released

after two years... We have seen no action against somebody accused of

the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a one-way street. We have the

decommissioning of IRA weapons by the IRA, therefore destroying

crucial evidence. You have these inconsistencies because you don't

have an mechanism for dealing with the past, but doing that is really

difficult because of the pain of real people. Don't you get a feeling

that here in London they are hoping he will not be charged? Definitely

because it would be nice if everything went away, but the civil

case of the family is taken out of the hands of the police. You can see

here a real failure in Westminster to see this as anything other than

settled. David Cameron we know sees himself as a chairman. I was

speaking to a friend in Northern Ireland who said he has never met

Gerry Adams and I think this is very revealing. They consider this as a

settled issue that will not trouble Westminster again. It would be, but

the relatives of the disappeared don't want it to be settled. This

points to the reality that the Belfast agreement probably had to be

done, but the moral price at which it was purchased was far greater

than we were willing to admit during the euphoria. For a country that

prides itself by the rule of law to tolerate the early release of

prisoners and former pal and military -- paramilitaries, I think

was a very serious matter. As for the PSNI, it only exists because its

predecessor failed to command the confidence of the nationalist

community. It is a very big deal if even the PSNI ends up falling into

the same trap. We have to is leave it there I'm afraid. It was the

Conservative's local election campaign launch on Friday, and what

did David Cameron focus on? Burning local issues like the state of our

roads, rubbish collection or care of the elderly? No. It was Europe. The

Prime Minister re-iterated again his promise of an in-out referendum on

our membership of the EU in 2017. And it's being reported this morning

that he will share a platform with Nigel Farage in a pre-general

election debate. Here's what the UKIP leader had to say about the

issue when he was on the Marr Show this morning with Ed Miliband. David

Cameron very often makes these vague promises, then doesn't deliver

afterwards. I don't think he has any intention of allowing me into any of

these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband wants to debate? We have got to have

the TV debates as we did join the last general election. I think David

Cameron is doing everything he can to wriggle out of them. It is up to

the broadcasters but whether they invite Nigel. My main desire is that

the debates go ahead. We are joined now by Grant Shapps. Will he be

included? The debates were not without problems, they took place

during the campaign period and disrupted the flow of the campaign,

taking it out of the regions, people getting to speak to the leaders so a

longer period for that would be helpful. I think they are good idea

and they should go ahead, but all of the negotiation about who is

involved is yet to happen. So it is not a done deal that Nigel Farage

will be included? That needs to be negotiated with the TV companies.

The Conservatives believe we should have debates, but exactly the format

and the timing, all of the -- that will be debated in the autumn, but

first we have European elections, the Queen 's speech and a Scottish

referendum. The local election campaign was launched on Friday. Why

did you talk more about Europe than local councils? Both are important.

The local elections are critically important for people, their local

services. It is easy to forget, for example, that the council tax has

been largely frozen since this Government came to power, a big

contrast to Dublin under the previous Labour government. So why

did you go on and on about Europe? Let me show you the poster used to

launch your local election campaign. There it is, and in-out referendum

on Europe, the day of the local elections, where is the word local?

Is it in small print? I hear what you're saying, I am happy to be here

to talk about the local elections. But you are right, they are on the

same day, and not many people know that only by voting conservative can

you get an in-out referendum. -- Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver,

we can, it is the same date, so people... This was the launch of the

local election campaign. Why does the Prime Minister have to keep on

promising something he has already promised? The actual referendum

would be in 2017. He promised it before, he keeps repeating it

because he knows people don't really trust him. I think it is a question

of the fact that, actually, unless you remind people that the pledges

there, that the only way to get an in-out referendum is to vote for

it, this is a critical moment at which we need people to vote for

that referendum if they want it. It is not the case, as I saw this

morning, being said by Nigel Farage, that a referendum was promised

before and not delivered. There was no referendum in the last manifesto.

There will be in the next one. There was a cast-iron guarantee, in the

Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In

the Sun article, he said, we will have a referendum on the Lisbon

Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty had been passed before the general

election, it is difficult to have a referendum on something in the past.

We joined Europe in the 1970s, having a referendum on that! Look,

that is about the future. Our relationship with Europe is

absolutely critical. Most people in this country feel, I was not old

enough to vote in that referendum, most of those who voted, they voted

for a Common Market, that is not what we have got. We want to

continue the work we have been doing in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do?

They voted against it. We want more of those powers brought home, and we

will put it to a referendum, and people will have to vote

Conservative to get it. We have been looking at new research, almost two

thirds of Conservative members are considering voting for UKIP, almost

two thirds. I have a simple message here, which is this. If you vote for

UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are likely, 30% are possible. That is

why it is important we are making these arguments. If you vote for

UKIP, you are voting to take us further away from returning powers

to this country, further from a referendum. It is support for Ed

Miliband becoming Prime Minister, and he will do exactly what Labour

have always done - hand away powers, and away the rebate for nothing in

return, giving Europe even more so over the day-to-day affairs in

Britain. Why are so many people considering voting UKIP? It is to

hold your feet to the fire, they do not trust you on a referendum, so

they will vote UKIP to force you to tap in your line. We have a very

tough line. If I had said four years ago that this government would

manage to cut the overall EU budget, would take us out of the

bailout fund that Labour got us into, passing a law that no more

powers can go to Europe without a referendum, if I had said that,

people would say, I do not believe it will happen. Not only have we

done these things, we are promising and in-out referendum, and the only

way to get it is to vote Conservative. Nigel Farage has

said, we can't change anything in Europe, and it is no wonder that the

president of the European Commission has said, we love having these UKIP

MEPs, because they don't turn up and vote, apart from when they vote

against the cut in the budget. It goes beyond UKIP in your party,

because this research also showed that those Conservative members most

likely to vote for UKIP, they said they do not feel valued or respected

by their own leadership, and they regard David Cameron as ideological

eat more remote from them than UKIP. What I would say is look at that

list... Let me take that step further. What people need our series

solutions to serious problems. When people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will

say, which one of the 40% of the MEPs who got in for UKIP last time

are you voting for, the ones above left or defected, the ones have gone

to jail? 40% have ended up not delivering. People have a right to

know what to expect when they vote in these elections. They can look at

our record at home, and this goes to the point you have raised about what

we have done in Britain to get this economy back on track, recover from

Labour's recession. We are prepared to take those decisions in Europe as

well. Presumably, active Conservative members, they know

that, so why do they not feel valued by the leadership? I spend time

going up and down the country meeting Conservative members, and

they are on the doorstep, last weekend 150 out in Enfield

campaigning for the European and local elections... Why are they keen

on UKIP? When I meet somebody who says that, not necessarily a

member... Have you met members of say they will vote UKIP? No, but a

vote for UKIP is... Do not do it, you will end up with Labour having

more control, handing away powers to Europe. 51-year-old meeting members

who say they will vote UKIP, you must be out of touch. -- if you are

not meeting members. Some of your members are thinking of voting UKIP.

I spend huge amount of time travelling around, I just told you

about this action day in Enfield, where we had an enormous turnout.

Those members were on the doorsteps pointing out that you can only get

reform in Europe by voting Conservative. Labour and the Lib

Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, Conservatives will. You have not got

that message across, because a YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who

has the best policies? Tories 18%, Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the

economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP 4. Why don't you shut up about

Europe and talk about the economy? Look, on the 27th of May, we have

European elections, as well as local elections. If I don't talk about the

European elections, you would say what you said at the beginning about

not talking about the local elections! These are serious

elections, and the point I am tried to make is that the issues at stake

are not peripheral, they are not unimportant. Our MEPs have been

battling to cut red tape from a European level on small businesses,

the same thing this government has been doing for small businesses

domestic league, where for example every small business owner watching

this show knows they have got ?2000 back in employment announced on

national insurance contributions. We are doing it at home, we are doing

it in Europe, and it is important to tie that together. Ireland that Mr

Cameron saying, you should stop banging on about Europe... -- I

remember. This is before the last general election, as in days for the

Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't win the election, and now you are

only three or four points ahead, it doesn't look good for you, does it?

Even then, the poll did not turn out to be what it was on the day. No,

that is what happens, that is the voting intentions now! You are in a

worse position than a year before the last election, which you didn't

win. We are almost proving the point that you can take a clip at any

moment in time, not sounding like a politician, but the only poll that

matters is on the day. In just over a year's time, people will have a

completely different picture to look at than these opinion polls. We have

an economy from being a basket case, the great Labour recession

knocking 7% of this economy, hurting every family, to a point where we

the fastest-growing economy in the developed world. In a year's time, I

hope people will see that we are the people who've taken the difficult

decisions, got the economy to the right place, more security for you

and your family. Do not give the car keys back to the people who crashed

it in the first place. If I had a pound for every time I have heard

that! It is clearly not getting through. On the Pfizer attempted of

AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this morning for a tougher public

interest test such big takeovers. Do you agree with that or not? Let me

be absolutely clear, if there is any kind of joining, we are in favour of

British jobs, British aren't deep, expanding our pharmaceutical sector.

-- R But what Mr Mallon and wants to do with rent caps, he is

anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He wants to take us back to the bad old

those. -- bad old days. Should there be a bigger public interest test? We

have seen some takeovers that people have criticised, but others, like

Bentley, Land Rover, which have been very successful. Should there be a

tougher test?! We will have tests that ensured this get-together

becomes a great Anglo-American project, or it doesn't happen, but

the Miliband approach is simply to be anti-business, anti-jobs and

anti-job security. Grant Shapps, thank you.

A challenging week for the Liberal Democrats with a local election

campaign overshadowed by another row with the Conservatives about knife

crime. Adam has spent the day with Nick Clegg on the campaign trail.

How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on a political mini break to the

Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the train. He wants to highlight what

his party is doing in local government, and a personal passion

of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has

been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is

that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page

manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he

does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took

a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven

world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to

make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring

them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous

country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very

on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few

years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do

not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are

doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,

actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a

national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any

leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of

Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has

been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a

town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full

on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime Minister, do you outrank him? I

don't think so, he is in government, I am not. So our there any normal

people in here? We are from Swindon, you cannot get more

abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? No! What has he done wrong? I don't

believe in his views at all. Where has he got to? Nigel Farage would

have had a pint! At this time in the morning a copy was more appropriate.

I have no time for a drink of any kind, because now we are off to look

at a local traffic blackspot. This is amazing, like a Lib Dem election

leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems pointing at a road. High-vis

jackets! Next we had to giggle full bath, but there will be no Regency

sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is taking us to an abandoned

wilderness. We have just had a health and safety briefing, we have

been told to look out for dive-bombing seagulls and an angry

fox. That is the sort of thing Nick Clegg has to put up with. He wants

to talk about the economy but he has to dodge the day's beat new story,

letters leaked by a Tory suggesting that Lib Dems are soft on knife

crime. Isn't that a new kind of warfare? I just think it is silly.

They may think they are clever by catching some headlines but they are

not helping people who worry about knife crime, like I do. We work

together... Just like the Coalition! This is a co-working

space where different businesses share the same office. My time with

the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing to a close. We haven't talked about

the most important story of the week, that you were voted the best

looking party leader and the most likely to be a good cook. Right,

this is news to me and I can guarantee you that my scepticism of

opinion polls has just been confirmed. Just as well because the

more serious polls don't look great for him or his party. Goodbye, and

thanks for the offer of a ride home!

He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce joins us now. According to Lib Dem

briefing documents, you are likely to choose -- lose a big chunk of

your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what would that say about a party that

boasts of its pro-Europe credentials? It would be

disappointing because we have the most hard-working MEPs. The worry

that we have is that people think the European Parliament is not

important but it takes decisions that affect us. They would be

disappointing for Britain as well as the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the

problem that the more you bang on about your pro-European credentials,

the more you slip in the polls? I do think so, we have two weeks to go

and we are campaigning extremely hard. You are forced in the polls. I

can tell you there are people out there who do believe Britain should

stay in the EU and they are worried that other parties will take us out.

The Liberal Democrats are clear, we want to stay in, we will work for

reform and do it effectively. If you lose the Liberal Democrats,

Britain's influence in Europe will be weakened. Your track record in

Europe shows you have been spectacularly wrong again and again.

In your 2009 manifesto you said the European Central Bank and the euro

have been tried and tested over ten years providing a clear picture of

the benefits of Eurozone membership and that proved to be nonsense. It

was nonsense everywhere. Every developed bank in the world was

tried and tested and failed. Europe may not be perfect, but the question

people have to decide is if we are going to leave Europe and be

isolated on RM, or use our influence to reform it from inside. We have

allies, you work with them, that is something the Lib Dems do better

than any other parties. Your 2004 manifesto, you claim that being

outside the euro would lead to job losses and reduced prosperity. You

were just plain wrong, weren't you? Yes, but the reason is that to some

extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was

set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at

the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was

writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He

wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.

Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the

euro. How wrong can he be? We have always argued that the currency had

to abide by strict criteria. It hasn't done so and that is one of

the reasons it has failed. We recognise there is no future for

Britain joining the euro and we are not advocating it. Lets put your

2010 manifesto on the screen. I didn't say it was not our long-term

interest. If Europe succeeds as an entity, if the euro becomes one of

the world leading currencies, there will come a point when it may be

justified. In the circumstances we are in the moment, there is no

recommended timescale. Let's get this right. Despite the Eurozone

crisis which has cost millions of jobs, countries that were teetering

on the brink of bankruptcy, the Eurozone now facing stagnation and

some countries on the brink of deflation, you still won't rule out

Britain joining? We are ruling it out in the foreseeable future. You

can miss the point that we are working as a coalition partner in

government that has secured recovery for the UK, and working as Liberal

Democrats in the parliament that have cut back the European budget in

cooperation with others. What would the world look like if it were right

for Britain to join the euro? You have 27 states at the moment, with

too many countries still struggling to meet the criteria so until you

have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the

countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more

centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,

because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which

any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,

we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone

to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that

happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it

would require the consent of all member states to agree to the

criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable

future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just

give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.

What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major

players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being

bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state

which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to

rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum

against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle

of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it

clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we

are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the

Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of

it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow

on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our

interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part

of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else.

The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's

interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined.

I think a lot of people recognise say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

I think a lot of people recognise that the best approach is to change

our relationship with Europe, see it reformed and then give the choice to

people as to whether we stay in Europe or we leave. That is a much

better way to deal with the current situation because if you have an

important relationship, the best thing to do is to try to fix it if

it is going wrong, rather than immediately take the decision on

whether to break it off. That is the Conservative view, for Labour they

say there is an overwhelming economic case for staying in Europe.

The Shadow Business Secretary was in Peterlee on Thursday, meeting young

people. Unemployed young people. Labour's message is that leaving the

EU will jeopardise jobs in the region. The debate is hotting up

nicely. UKIP is making quite a lot of the pace. Jonathan Arnott,

Theresa Villiers is right, isn't she? This is about relationship

counselling with Europe, not about the option of divorce. The problem

is that we have tried for 40 years to get reform of the European Union.

It has failed. Reform requires 27 other countries all to agree. It

isn't going to happen, it hasn't happened, it is time to be honest

with the British people, say it is not working and accept one of two

things. isn't going to happen, it hasn't

happened, it is Either you take the approach that the UK should be part

of Europe and accept everything, the euro and the whole shebang, or you

take the UKIP position and say you want to be good neighbours with

Europe, trade freely with them but not have European government. There

has been some evidence your message has appealed to people. Some good

pulling this week. There are three seats up for grabs in the North

East. `` some good polling. What is your ambition? Looking at the

opinion polls, we would be disappointed if we did not take one

of those three seats. It is quite clear that across the North of

England, the last few polls have showed UKIP on over 30% of the vote,

one of those has had UKIP ahead of Labour. If that were true, we would

take two seats in the North East. That would be the absolute ultimate

dream for us, but we are certainly doing very well indeed. Just one

week ago, you told me you were not seen much sign of UKIP support on

the Labour doorsteps. Sticking to that? In fact, it is a kind of

strange situation because we are looking at these polls which are

coming out, but I think there is quite a lot of questioning about

whether you can really take the polls seriously, because our

experience on the doorstep is really quite different. We are getting a

really warm response as Labour candidates on the doorstep. Every

session, there are UKIP voters, definitely UKIP voters in the North

East, they are particularly in marginal seat for Labour and people

who are feeling hit and want to do a protest vote. `` marginal seats. Why

then has your leaflets this week had a go at UKIP if you're not worried

about them? We want to set out what UKIP is putting forward as a

political party. That is important in terms of transparency. The UKIP

agenda in terms of things which people hold dear in the North East

needs to be exposed a little bit, like privatisation of the NHS, like

scrapping workers' rights, like... That is not our policy. You're

planning on scrapping maternity leave. No, we're not. It is in your

manifesto, which I know you have denounced previously. It's not. They

are in the manifesto. You are happy to put out leaflets on false UKIP

policies. You are the party... Lower taxation for the rich. You are the

party that privatised part of the NHS. These are policies which UKIP

have defended in the past. Nigel Farage is on record in the European

Parliament on this. We have a lot to discuss on this. The big issue for

many people in these elections is immigration. Ten years ago this

week, Poland joined the European Union, allowing its citizens to work

and live in our region. This year Romanians and Bulgarians got the

same rights. UKIP says that has lowered wages, increased the

benefits bill, put services under strain. Not a view shared by many

migrants, who say they are paying their taxes and doing the jobs

sometimes that nobody else wants to do. We invited a UKIP candidate to

meet with them. Meet Gergana Ivanova. She is a

Bulgarian working in an Indian restaurant in Newcastle. It is that

kind of world these days. She is also a journalism student at

Sunderland University. After her studies she wants to stay in the UK.

It is definitely more secure. About everything. I don't mean the free

treatments, I don't mean the benefits. I mean that if you want to

work, you can go out and find a job. But some think too many migrants

have arrived here in the last decade, including this man, UKIP

European candidate Richard Elvin, so we have invited him to meet Gergana,

tell her why and explain posters like this. Our services currently

can't cope, our schools, our hospitals, our housing and we feel

the time has come to have a moratorium on immigration until we

can put our house in order. Everyone says the migrants steal English

people's jobs. We don't steal someone's job if we don't deserve

it. I don't think that we infer that they steal jobs. When you have a

massive oversupply of labour, it forces down the pay rates. That is

one of the things we are very concerned about, it has driven down

living standards. For the moment, the doors remain open to people like

this man, a teacher in Romania who is working as a carer in an old

people's home in Middlesbrough. But he says he is not depriving anyone

of a job. In my care home, maybe more than 80% of carers are

foreigners, Romanian, Thai, Chinese, Polish.

It is not my, you know, my right to say this, but I think it is the

truth, for me it is the truth: English people don't want these

jobs. Ileana is also Romanian. She has been here 20 years. She helps

new arrivals like this man find his feet. She says most migrants are

desperate to work. Although he is being paid properly, she admits some

may not be. I am very honest here. I know families who are working from

nine o'clock in the morning until five o'clock or six o'clock for ?17

per day and are still happy to be able to put food on the table

because a lot of them don't have knowledge what is the minimum wage

here, because of the language barrier. So they are prepared to

take the jobs no matter what. Some who have been here longer might soon

become employers themselves. Edyta and Margaret arrived from Poland

seven years ago. Now they don't just work in this Middlesbrough cafe `

they own it. We settled here very well. She is more English than

Polish now. She corrects my English all the time. We bought a house

here, we have made lots of friends. And now here we are, we have got our

own business. The Polish community is one community who bring to your

budget about 30% money above than they got from the benefits. So they

pay their taxes, they have worked, so we can be proud of ourselves.

Some are not convinced. This man is a UKIP voter from County Durham. He

is concerned migration is stretching the services his taxes have funded.

I have had very little time off work ever since I left school, I have

been virtually fully employed all the way through, I have paid taxes

and national insurance and everything. Other people who didn't

pay into the system come in and get a free ride. I have got nothing

against Romanian people or Bulgarian people. What I am saying is, we

can't cope with the numbers. But just how large are those numbers?

The latest figures available date from December 2012 and they suggest

that at that point there were around 12,000 people from Eastern Europe

living in the North East. That is less than half of one percent of the

region's population. But whatever the size of that migrant community,

they appear to have become a big issue in this month's European

elections. Let's turn to our aspiring MEPs. How

would you answer the UKIP charge that migration has lowered wages and

put a strain on services? I think there is a lot of misinformation

around the debate around immigration. I think nationally, not

just regionally, nationally we need to have a more measured discussion

about immigration and how we deal with our needs. Are they completely

wrong? There is a lot of scaremongering, which feeds people's

concerns, especially in a period... You heard there descriptions of

Romanians working for below the minimal wage in the black market.

Absolutely. That is where Labour is really focused on. We are really

putting forward a political agenda which is about tackling the

exploitation. Because that is abuse by employers of abusing the rights

that those workers have the right to, and that certainly pulls down

wages for other people. We need to enforce the minimum wage much more,

that means we need more inspections, it means we need investment in

infrastructure. But you are happy for people to come? We need better

penalties for employers who do not pay or do not treat workers as they

should. According to the law. We also need to... There are lots of

issues, lots of these issues are actually national policy issues that

have to be dealt with by government. We have to wait until the general

election. I am going to move on. I am out of time. Jonathan Barnett,

the truth is that as we saw, a lot of people in Eastern Europe are here

to pay taxes and work and make a good light `` make a good life for

themselves. They are contributing. In some way that is true. Research

shows that for everyone and people that come into the country, of

working age, it is the equivalent of 23 jobs lost in the UK as a result.

There are issues there. I think what you also find is that when you have

got a massive oversupply of people coming in, prepared to go jobs at

minimal wage or sometimes even below, that oversupply means that it

is very difficult to find a job at minimum wage. What about that man in

the BT. He said in his experience British people don't want to do the

job he is doing. That is a rather cynical approach to take. That is

his opinion. Our experiences on the doorstep. Seeing people out of work,

they are desperate to get any job they can find, they want to work.

The idea that British people do not want to work is really doing the

British people down anyway. We should take a much more positive

approach than that. We should reward hard work. You have said that

UKIP's poster campaign is part of their, in your view it is racist. I

have never said that. No Labour had implied that it is inflammatory. It

is scaremongering. Who is right? There is a fear factor. UKIP are

playing on the politics of fear. The figures for the north`east. We have

a foreign`born population of 1.7%. That includes the 0.5% of eastern

Europeans. But our unemployment levels are five `` are far higher.

It is not about I grant workers taking jobs from local workers. It

is about not enough jobs in the north`east economy. The focus should

be jobs in the economy. You might describe yourself `` you might not

describe yourself as the races but it's saying that if wages are low,

it is deadly migration, if services are not good, it is migration, its

gear groups `` its gear mongers a community and attract racist. The

problem is we have unlimited immigration from Europe. And

elsewhere. You said it is costing jobs. What we should have is a

system of work permits. Those people who have skills and will genuinely

benefit the UK economy, who are taking jobs in areas where frankly

we need the skills, those should be people who are allied to coming so

we should have a clear policy that does not discriminate on whether you

are from Europe not from Europe. Very briefly. The key thing to

remember is that this is about a two Way St. There are 2 million Britons

working in the rest of Europe are living retired or studying in the

rest of Europe. There are about 2 million Europeans living and

working... We have got to move on. We will never get to the truth of

the figures. I am going to move on. Thank you. A new business park, a

low carbon enterprise zone and a fund that helps new firms get going

in Bury. Three of many projects paid for in part by European money. In

the north`east, we have done well in the past and EU structural funds but

with mirror poorer countries joining, we `` will we get a big

share in the future? I met with the policy commissioner and asked him

what he thought the impact of such spending had been in the region. If

I look at the figure of the north`east, they must benefit

because we have created 11,000 jobs and safeguarded more than 11,000

jobs and I think we have assisted more than 30,000 `` 13,000 SMEs.

What has been done in the north`east in the past is exactly what we would

like to do and see all over Europe, to promote and push the economy to

safeguard jobs. Argument of people like the UK Independence Party is

that Britain puts millions, and that of millions of pounds into the

European Union, some of that comes back to the north`east. If Britain

came out of the European Union, it could keep that money and spend it

anyway without patting it through a bunch of Eurocrats in Brussels. I

would say the UKIP representative should ask the representatives of

the regions. I know from the representatives of the regions

around Europe that they are in favour of this kind of policy

because this is a guarantee for them to receive money for the regional

development. The additional value is that there is money provided for

seven years. Which is completely different from a national budget

which is usually for one, in some countries two years. Another problem

is the EU is getting larger, more countries coming in from eastern

Europe that are not as rich. That could lead to less money for the

north`east, potentially in the future. The main task of EU policy

is to reduce the disparity between regions but additional members in

particular from the former communist countries, a huge market

opportunity, for instance, for Britain and its companies because

these are the emerging markets of Europe. Here we have significant

increases of welfare level, people can consume more if there is

adequate support and in that respect, Britain and British

companies and British jobs are pushed by this kind of development

and this is a market opportunity we should take into account also.

Britain has some decisions to make in the future, there may be a

referendum on whether to stay in the EU. You Do believe that a region

like the north`east, a poorer region might suffer more if the UK lost the

European Union perhaps than wealthier regions? If the UK would

leave, it would leave also the single market. This is something

which should be taken into account and this is something which has to

be discussed in the British public and to balance the pros and cons and

the British people have to decide. The consequences, there are a lot of

consequences which would affect every part of the UK and I would say

that the less developed even more than probably the more developed

regions. The less`developed regions should have an interest to be part

of Europe because only if you are in a big family, you can benefit from

the strength of a big family. Jonathan Arnett, ?500 million came

to the north`east from the EU in the last six years, another 600 Liam

Payne coming in the next six years. He said, creating jobs. He would

throw all that away. It is money that comes back from what we spend

on the EU in the first place. Would you spend ?20 to get a ?10 Marks

Spencer 's voter? The European Union expected to be grateful for the ?10

voucher! It is ridiculous. This is money that is guaranteed for seven

years. You send UKIP would deliver that money to the north`east,

guaranteed for seven years? That doesn't make much difference whether

it is seven years or five years. Is a key UKIP commitment that our share

of that money will come to the north`east to help the north`east

economy? That is what we're getting from the EU. UKIP offering that? We

should be helping the regions. There is not a specific figure set at the

moment but we should make sure that project that need to be funded are

funded. Not all European Union funding is needed anyway because the

money is going on things that they tell us how we must spend it. Your

party got into government and good control the pot of money, you could

do a lot of good in the north`east? We certainly could. Regional

economic devolution is part of the Labour agenda. The EU... It is only

partly paid back to us? The EU firms are not determined, the spending of

those EU funds is not determined by Brussels. Those are determined

locally. Currently the next seven years, like you said, it is actually

?660 million for the north`east and the Tees Valley. That will be

decided by local business together with other actors had that money is

spent best in the region. The problem is, as we pointed out to the

Commissioner, that is going to dwindle as time goes on because a

lot of money is going to be funding eastern European infrastructure

rather than north`east infrastructure. There are funds we

get from the structural funds. Other funds we get as the region as well

from the Common agricultural policy, for example, which are about

investigation in the role of the economy, there are funds which come

from the research budget which go into our universities and

innovation. The key thing is that switching all of that money through

Westminster is very dangerous for the north`east because we have seen

what has happened with funding through this government. 's regional

funds are a win`win in that as the Commissioner said, we get some money

but they also develop Eastern European economies for British

businesses. I do not see that developing economies in Eastern

Europe is what UK taxpayers' money should be spent on. I don't think

that is an efficient use of your taxes or my taxes. Our taxi should

be used generally speaking to help people directly in the UK. `` our

taxes. Where there is a case for helping foreign countries, things

like natural disasters, that is the sort of thing foreign aid should be

for, not to European countries. We will have to leave it there. Next

week we will have Conservative and Liberal Democrat candidate in the

studio and we will be talking to the Green Party. A parties contesting

the elections in the north`east were three seats are up for grabs. The

Northwest has fewer than 11 parties fighting it out for their eight

parliament seats. You can see a full list of candidates on the BBC

politics website. The details are on the screen. We may be concentrating

on European matters but there has been plenty of other things going

on. Including a victory for campaigners trying to make a Cumbria

railway station accessible to disabled people. Here is the rest of

the week's news in 60 seconds. Cumbrian MP Rory Stewart's four`year

campaign to get a lift in so that is railway station in Penrith has ended

in successful stop the Department for Transport is to include the work

initially just round of funding to ensure access to all platforms from

disabled and elderly passengers. `` for disabled and elderly passengers.

One MP told a Westminster Hall debate he still had concerns about

it. Their status and their prestige, I don't want that to be undermined

by unlicensed taxes and the consequences of some of the things

potentially that could happen if this ill thought through legislation

is pushed through Parliament. Co Durham MP has called for action to

save the Durham miners Gayla. A long`term future of the event has

been put at risk after the Durham miners Association was landed with a

?2 million legal bill. That is about it from us. We are

back same time and place next week with the second of our European

specials, which includes a look at some of the smaller parties will

been to cause an upset. More information on what is going on in

the European elections, you can go to my blog. If you live on Teessider

want to hear the main parties argued out,

on our website. That is all we have got time for this week. Next week,

London's local elections. Welcome back. Now, the Government is

not very good at predicting the future. That's according to a report

from a committee of MPs this morning who say that its Horizon Scanning

programme that's supposed to identify potential threats, risks,

emerging issues and opportunities isn't much good at reading the tea

leaves. But can it really be any worse than our panel? Here they are

predicting the future of then culture secretary Maria Miller

before Easter. Can she survive? I'm getting out of

the prediction game after I said Nick Clegg would win the debates.

But I almost think she might. If there is a big event that moves this

off the front pages. David Cameron will want to keep Maria Miller until

at least his summary shuffle. I think they will get rid of her. I

think they will do the decent thing after exhausting all other options.

Maria Miller resigned a few days later of course! The best and the

brightest, when did that slip in? This week it will be exactly a year

until the General Election, so what better time to get our panel to gaze

into their crystal balls again. What's the outcome of the election

in 2015? I'm going to go with the polls and say Ed Miliband as the

Prime Minister. But the polls are only a snapshot of opinion now, you

think they will be the same in a year? No, I think they will narrow.

I think UKIP's vote share will fall. I think they are currently coasting

on a high and that will tailor way so they won't take as many votes off

the Tories. Labour with a majority or is the largest party. Another

liberal Conservative coalition, and I say that because he is already in

touching distance of Labour. I don't think UKIP will get 15, maybe half

of that, and most of the votes they lose will either not vote at all go

to the Tories and that should be enough to be the biggest party in a

hung parliament I don't envisage a Tory majority. I am also going to go

with the polls. For Ed Miliband to be hoping to win at this stage, he

has got to be way ahead in the polls. Labour needs to be much

further ahead if he is going to win so David Cameron, probably the

leader of the largest party. Last time after the election David

Cameron went to the 1922 committee and announced he was Prime Minister

as head of the Coalition. He has agreed this time he will consult

them and it will be much more difficult for him to get a

coalition. People at home have now concluded there will be a Liberal

Democrat landslide! Are we going to have debates? Yes, probably further

away from polling day then last time. That is the Liberal Democrat

point, isn't it? Yes, it sucks all the life out of the campaign, so the

last six weeks will be left to traditional campaigning. What did

you make of this in the Sunday Times this morning, this two, three, five

formula. There should be a Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg debate, then

there should be another one with them and UKIP and the Greens. It

might be testing the patience of the nation to tune into all of those. If

you're going to say Nigel Farage should be there, the Green party

should be too. They know that as soon as you put them on a podium

next to them, he looks like he has equal stature and that is a problem.

David Cameron does not want the debates to happen on the way they

happened last time. It is generally regarded, Lynton Crosby believes

they were a disaster for David Cameron because they allowed Nick

Clegg to be the fresh person. He knows he cannot say no to them so

the moment you see David Cameron suggesting that Caroline Lucas

should be in the debate, you know he is not serious. What he will try to

do is have more debates, have them outside the main part of the general

election so that it doesn't dominate. The problem the David

Cameron is that the campaign will be much longer. It is a five-week

campaign so it is quite difficult for him to say we will only have one

debate in that campaign. I think smother it with love, hopefully it

will go to the courts for him and hopefully they will never happen and

he will be delighted. The European election and the local elections are

coming up. The three mainstream parties are saying it is a flash in

the pan, they don't really matter and so on, but if UKIP comes a

strong first, if Labour comes a poor second and the Tories come a poor

third, it will have consequences for all three, and the Lib Dems come

forth or even fish. It will have consequences and not just in the

media but on the ground. One of the big stories is what will happen to

the Lib Dems, they face losing all of their MEPs. A good result for

them is lit -- in the local elections is losing 250 councillors.

These are the most interesting elections we have had for some

time. Are we heading for a Nick Clegg summer leadership crisis? I

think we are heading towards reversing the clock back to where we

were before the Eastleigh by-election. That quiet and things

down for Nick Clegg. If they lose all their MEPs, and there is a real

chance they will, Vince Cable will be out on manoeuvres because age is

not on his side. If he can say Nick Clegg is a loser and a failure, he

will be back. Will the Tories go into headless chicken mode if they

come third? Yes, if UKIP come first there will not be as much panic as

if Labour come first. Is Labour comes a poor second, will there be

some pressure on Ed Miliband to reopen his attitude to the

referendum? I don't think so and my colleague was talking to Labour

sources who said he is absolutely not going to. That is something you

can say definitely about him, he decides on a course and he sticks to

it. There is one potential upside for David Cameron in a really bad

Conservative results, it could strengthen his hand in the

renegotiations of Britain's EU membership because he doesn't even

need to say to Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande it is there. David

Cameron hasn't just been fighting for his party into the local

elections. He also got his knuckles wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow,

at Prime Minister's Question Time, for talking for too long. Take a

look at this. There is a better future ahead of us but we must not

go backward to the policies that put us in this mess in the first place.

I don't know what they are paying him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I

haven't finished! In response to that question, the Prime Minister

has finished and he can take it from me that he has finished. I can't

remember a speaker ever speaking to a Prime Minister like that. Clearly

in that case, John Bercow crossed a line. It is Prime Minister 's

questions, he is entitled to answer the questions. There is really bad

blood between those two, going back a long way. They hate each other and

the worrying thing about that was the look of triumphalism on the

speaker's face afterwards. He is a remarkable, revolutionary speaker

who has made the House of Commons more relevant, he is holding the

executive to account, but that look on his face showed he had crossed

the line. Does he survive after the next election? He has improved the

importance of the Commons, is that enough to keep him in the Speaker 's

chair? The most public bit of the Commons is still the Prime Minister

's questions, and we can conclude that John Bercow's interventions

take more time than any delays he complains about so I wouldn't be

surprised if, in a few years' time, someone else replaces him. He is

quite popular with Labour, is he not? Yes, he is married to a Labour

activist and is notably sympathetic to Labour but I think this is a

difficult situation. David Cameron also overstepped the line. As soon

as the speaker says order, the idea is that the House was to order and

David Cameron pushed him. They are both trying to score points off each

other. We cover Prime Minister 's questions every week on the daily

politics, and there is a danger that he sees it as an opportunity to do

some grandstanding. You slightly sends his vanity gets the better of

him. It is supposed to be Prime Minister 's questions. At the end of

that session, the Speaker read out a statement from the Chief clerk, and

immensely respected figure, saying he is taking early retirement. It is

pretty clear that the reason he has decided to go early is because he is

finding it tricky to maintain a cordial relationship with the

speaker, and the speaker might want to think about his man management

skills. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC

Two at lunchtime from Tuesday onwards. Remember, it is a bank

holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here at 11am next week. Remember - if

it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.