19/03/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

The chief executive of NHS Providers joins me live.

Here, border reaction from Berwick to the possibility of

And what is the future for the tens of thousands of

Europeans living and working in the Northeast?

All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

from his party's spring conference in York.

With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

three of the country's top political commentators:

Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

budget measure just one week after announcing it.

Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

future will be decided, not just by me, the

Scottish Government, or the

SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

attempts to change it and it becomes law.

But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

the planned rise in National Insurance for

the self-employed announced the budget.

It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

We will bring forward further proposals

but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

But that's not what the Prime Minister

Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

We should be working together, not pulling apart.

We should be working together to get that

right deal for Scotland, that

So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

SNP activists at their spring conference

Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

big issues in our world what

good analysis, great news journalism.

It's a really important time for good journalism that The

Evening Standard is going to provide.

There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

see. So if Theresa May did go

for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

have just been talking about, executed one of the most

embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

opportunity to put that case to the British people.

Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

no immediate relief, and today the head of

the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

care and planned operations, unless the Government

Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

published his plan for the future of the health service.

In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

and that the health service could account for the rest by making

The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

Have you raised that with the government?

Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas

is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you

could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,

what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government

has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing

funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can

I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the

first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we

can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work

in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very

important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the

financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being

asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of

time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

Hello and an extremely warm welcome to your local part of the show.

Just, of course, for the north-east and Cumbria.

On the programme this week, as the Brexit bill is passed

by Parliament, what does the future hold for Europeans

We meet migrants from Poland and Romania who

And in the studio talking about that and the rest

of the news this week, the

Labour MP for Washington and Sunderland West, Sharon Hodgson,

and the businessman and mayoral candidate

Let's start with Scotland and the chances of a

Sharon Hodgson, the Prime Minister says no to a referendum, certainly

at this point, is that position sustainable?

Well, I think so, and she said no, not until we are the

other side of Brexit and I think that is fair.

It was only two and a half years ago when the Scottish

people made their choice and the choice was

to remain as part of the

And that was what the referendum for the EU looming, and so the

people did know the referendum for the EU was coming up, nobody knew

how that would go and they made the choice that nevertheless

they wanted to be part of a United Kingdom.

You know, the people in Scotland have

got enough going on with being like the rest of us and having to deal

with the Brexit and it is divisive and not necessary.

Jeremy Middleton, the problem is, isn't this what the

They raised the prospects for a referendum and it looked like

it has been frustrated by a Conservative Government.

I think that is why they raised it, to try

We voted as one country, the decision has been taken

and I do not think you can take one individual part and say, we do not

If you look across the north-east, sure,

Newcastle voted to remain as well, Is it going to open up

Why not let them have their say and find out?

I think they will have a chance to have their say

but they need to make a real choice and that will be after Brexit has

become clear and the implications are and they will have to decide if

I hope they stay but at least they will be

making it on the basis of a

clear understanding of what options are open to them.

Well, how events unfold will be closely

watched, of course,in border communities across Cumbria and the

As I've been to Berwick to see what people there make the

After all, it was less than three years ago.

Apparently it once in a generation vote, except now, there is a push

That means people in Berwick are again considering

the potential impact of living on an international border.

There is already division on the high street

about the justification for another referendum.

Where we are at, it is not a pretty good idea.

I think it will cost far too much and I think

I think it probably will happen, don't you?

The latest survey is saying the Scottish people do not

Nicola is just angling for more power.

And then we'll be Tories for the rest of our life.

But of course a new vote would churn up

cross-border issues many thought were settled.

Given another referendum, some of the arguments from 2014 will be

The potential disruption to people's lives of

having a border here, the possible economic competition

But there would be another distinctive factor.

The potential that this side of the border could have a very

There is a chance Scotland's may end up either in the EU or the

European free trade agreement, whereas you end up with the north of

England out after Brexit and that poses real difficulties for

policymakers in the North with free trade and things to do with tariffs,

all of these kind of issues to do with immigration and workforces.

But there is now a political battle over

whether or when a referendum could take place.

The PM has blocked it for now, quite right, say Conservatives

I think it's only three years since the last

It was a decisive decision by the Scottish people.

I think that decision should be respected.

We actually find the SNP have been on the losing side of two

referendums and they just don't seem to be willing to accept the result.

But the Carlisle MP's Scottish neighbour says

Northern England has nothing to fear from Scottish independence.

Our relationship is based on social ties, family ties, cultural ties,

economic ties, we like football, we like a pint.

We get on with each other. All of those things will be exactly

But what the politicians in this place will try

and kid us on about is our ties rely on their ties, which they have

Of course this hasn't always been a peaceful

border and now looks like

tensions over its status could be growing again.

Jeremy Middleton, let's deal with perhaps the potential

impact on us of any referendum on independence.

There is no independence would be bad for

Instead the Scots will have to stand on their own

moment many would argue they are much more

powerful than the north of

Well, it depends what sort of deal happens in the event

The Scots have been subsidised by the rest of

You have more than ?1000 per head of public expenditure

spent on everybody in Scotland than is spent on the north-east of

This has basically been bribery to encourage them to the

I do not think it is fair now and it ought to be addressed anyway.

In the event of independence then it will

become absolutely essential the north-east and rest

a fair deal, so we are dealt with on a regular and equal and fair

Lots of Scots disagree that they get a great deal

Definitely in terms of public expenditure

From that point of view would have nothing to fear

We have other things to worry about because then it is a question

about how they spend the money they have.

At the moment they use the economic power often to bribe and attract

We know they will change the taxation plan.

As an independent country they will be entitled to do

that but we will see the potential they will use

passengers away from the north of England.

It will not affect things Heathrow and Manchester but

It will have all sorts of potentially negative implications,

The only people who will really enjoy it will

be the media who will sell a lot of newspapers

and the politicians will

Sharon Hodgson, there is a lot of Labour supporters

who might be sympathetic with one of our contributors in Berwick who

might want to escape perpetual Conservative Government.

Why is Labour so adamant it would be bad for Scotland

Because we believe in the United Kingdom.

I think Nicola Sturgeon, personally, should get on with

She is First Minister, terrible cuts in

As we said, it will not be bad news for

A lot of people in the north-east will say let the

Scots have their way, let them go and we can concentrate

on developing our economy without them on the

border with all these extra powers they have got.

We have lots of Labour politicians in the

north-east across councils and in Parliament and we do get on with

running the north-east and taking the north-east's voice to London.

Some might say Edinburgh is closer to the north-east than Scotland.

big distraction to us in the north-east for what we need to do

Will the Government not have a problem here?

Because if we come together referendum, the

argument about the Brexit that you do not need a hard border

in Ireland and you can carry on free trade beyond

borders, those are exactly the arguments for allowing Scottish

Well, if they choose independence there will

But I think and hope the Scots will realise it

Would there need to be a hard border?

I think there is a slight danger of a hard

border because if you have different policies, for example, on

immigration then how will you enforce those

It is difficult enough in Northern Ireland but it is much

harder in Scotland and certainly will have

a bigger impact on us in the

Sharon Hodgson, we heard the point about how we are represented, rather

than tether the Scots to us, wouldn't it be nice to hear from

Labour are some ideas about how we empower the North a lot more?

We have heard virtually nothing so far.

Other than opposition, and a scrapping of the mayor in the

north-east that might have been a counterpoint.

With regard to devolution, I mean, I think we have

Obviously, Teesside are going to wait and get

a mayor, we have to wait and see what happens in Manchester and the

Wait and see, wait and see, and then we

are falling further and further behind.

The deal that was on the table, and I wasn't around the table

but I understand it wasn't very good, I think that was the big

sticking point and I think Manchester seems to be getting a

If they make a great success of that then perhaps

because I know he is obviously very interested.

I think Manchester has shown the way.

The most important thing is to start.

There was an offer of money, power, it was a starting

The real problem is lots of parts of the

country are moving ahead and we are not.

Now, Parliament this week gave Brexit the

A big moment for the whole country and particularly for

the tens of thousands of Europeans who came to the north-east and

Cumbria to work and have now settled here.

Labour says the Government should immediately guarantee their

rights to remain in the UK but that does seem unlikely at this stage.

So how are they dealing with the uncertainty?

He grew up in Poznan, he lives in Darlington

And despite the uncertainty EU nationals

face at the moment this is not a somewhat extreme preparation

in case he suddenly forced to return to

I am training to achieve our, I can say target?

We will row from my home town in Poland to London which takes

for us approximately between 25 and 28 days.

Despite the Government's refusal to guarantee EU citizens the right

to stay in the UK, Christoph sees his 1600 mile adventure from Poland

to England as a strictly one-way trip.

When I reached London I felt somewhat like I have come back home.

I do not feel any pressure at the moment, nobody has told me

It will probably come as no surprise that Poland is the dominant

EU nationality in our region, with an estimated 3000 Poles living

Durham and Newcastle have got the greatest variety of EU

communities and there are also a large number of

Romanians living in the region in places

like Sunderland, Stockton and

And many of those Romanians on Teesside are deeply

The anxiety and stress is quite a lot.

The children, they can have questions

Especially to those who were born here in the UK.

This shop owner and his wife are expecting

He says people in the community are already saving

Now is the problem for me and my family

because I am putting money in

I come to live here to stay here and

Pay the council, pay my tax, pay everything.

And the people now are a little bit stressed and

In Middlesbrough's Polish cafe the economic impact of Brexit

is already causing concern, perhaps more so

than any long-term worries about whether they will be allowed to stay

Prices have really increased sense of this

People feel, not only immigrants but also British people,

also feel unsure and less comfortable because of money.

It has been claimed the Government is using

Margaret says she understands why the Government hasn't guaranteed

It's just a little bit a part of the game, of

They are trying to use people as a playing

card, so if you give me something I give you something else.

Christoph's house is in Darlington but the

rowing machines at the Dolphin Centre may well feel like home for

But he hopes the ideals of friendship and the

qualities he is promoting through his epic adventure will be

understood by politicians on both sides of the channel.

Even if England will not be part of EU any

It doesn't make any difference for us,

we are still people, we are built the same,

two legs, two hands, one head, body, still the same.

Jeremy Middleton, you were a long-time

How do you feel about the Government so far

giving no guarantees that

migrants, like we have seen there, about their future status in the UK?

The Government has made it perfectly clear and quite rightly all EU

citizens currently here are welcome to stay and they want them to stay.

There is no doubt that is the Government's position.

But the Government also has to bear in mind

there are 1 million British citizens in the EU and that also needs to be

The Government has made an offer that if we

guarantee of the EU citizens stay, will they please guarantee of

the British citizens can stay there and that offer has so far been

rejected from the EU because negotiations have not opened.

It is just incredible to think we would

ever try and take migrants out of the country.

I do not think for one second we will.

We might as well just guarantee them now.

Because we equally want to make sure the

British citizens who are in Europe have a similar guarantee.

That will be agreed, it should be agreed at that

That will be agreed, it should be agreed and it

I do not think we should encourage people who are EU

citizens to really worry they will be ejected,

Sharon Hodgson, as Margaret in the cafe understands,

You do not just throw in your hand all

at once, you've got to go through a process

to secure the position of UK nationals in Europe.

And I understand the point Jeremy is making, exactly that.

There is 1.2 million British citizens in Europe

and I think there is about 3.2 million European citizens here.

But it does feel like they are a bargaining

chip and that is why were so disappointed we did not get

the amendment on to the Article 50 bill because that would have been,

we say this is our red line, we are going to guarantee

on the face of the bill you will be

protected and can stay. Whether that would have undermined

the bargaining that went on, As we have seen in

that film people have settled here for ten years and had

children and their children have For them to feel that

uncertainty must A lot of your supporters might

wonder why Labour is making such a priority in the process

of Brexit on this particular issue, ahead of, perhaps, they might

suggest, free trade and jobs. Again, these are

people's lives and we equally have our 1.2

million citizens in Europe What are we going to do

with all these pensioners? How would bring them

all home if they Jeremy, you're the

businessman, have the Conservatives got it right,

apparently prioritising immigration The impression is Theresa May would

rather control immigration and be out the single market

and Customs Uunion than be My understanding is

the Government undoubtedly want to have control over immigration

and that will have to be agreed one way or another and we

will be in a position to do that

when we're no longer the EU. Then we have to drive

through the logic, which is both us and the EU's interests to have

as much free trade as possible. When you bear in mind

the effort the EU has gone to to form free trade

agreements with lots of countries around the world, most recently

Canada, it must be a logical point that we reach at some stage

that we have a similar agreement with a big

country like the... Even if we won't except their

citizens coming freely? We undoubtedly will accept

their citizens who are living here currently, and our citizens will be

able to remain in Europe, as we've They will be some controls over

immigration but they will be the same controls

that will be applied to members of the EU

as Sharon Hodgson, Labour

still has not told us what it is going to do

about immigration, and yet the voters

in places like Sunderland were quite clear during the referendum

they wanted controls. And I have had a huge

listening exercise across my constituency, 500

questionnaires back and two public meetings

and in each one of those and the

questionnaires it is clear people do want to see reform of immigration

and some controls, no matter how they voted, and that was very

interesting and we have heard that We will see what develops

in terms of policy. There has been plenty going on this

week, including a new blueprint for jobs,

investment in Middlesbrough. Here is David with that

and the rest of this week's Blyth Valley MP Ronnie Campbell will

lead a Commons debate next week on the closure of the cosmetics

and perfume factory. 400 staff are being told

their jobs will go. The Government is to

examine plans for a retail Park, 200 houses and a school

on the County Hall site in Morpeth. Northumberland County Council cannot

proceed with the plans until Middlesbrough Council has unveiled

its plans for ?600 million of Mayor Dave Budd says housing

and regeneration plans will see the Our own capital expenditure

is just over ?70 million. We expect that to bring

in well over ?600 million Of private

investment and so will you add those to give

this Finally, pregnant women

are being discriminated against in the workplace and suffering

unfair and unlawful treatment,

according to How big a problem is

it and what examples have you got of how

it is You would not think so in this

day and age, 100 years after women get the vote,

but 54000 women last year alone lost their jobs through feeling

they were forced out That is one in nine

women in the workforce. If that was in Parliament

that would be And as I said, 21 of my fellow women

MPs being forced out, we would be on the floor

of the house raising merry hell. If it is not good

enough in our workplace it is not good enough then

anybody's workplace. You know, the equality select

committee did a very good report, far and wide, select

committee all-party report, not political, presented

it to the Government you know, gave some warm words

out in January saying they would look at it,

but they haven't actually came up with any

action to do anything about it. I am in a dodgy position

here because I am a man and I I would never defend

discrimination in any way or putting stress

on pregnant women but can you have

an iota of sympathy for a small employer who has to deal with people

going on maternity leave etc and also requests for flexible

working when it is very hard on With small employers,

with all employers, but these things can be planned

for and you do have time while the employee is pregnant and also this

is why we have to have a huge cultural change because it always

falls on the woman and in society when we get more parental leave

and sharing of responsibility is the whole culture of women

being pregnant will take on a whole different slant and that will not be

seen, this person... It will not just be

about the negatives, it will be about the quality that woman has

as an employee that you have already The cost to employers

and business is I just want to ask

Jeremy Middleton, does this happen in your

experience in business? It certainly happens that you have

to deal with people who become pregnant and,

yes, it is a disruption, It would be a waste,

as Sharon pointed out, if The Government has said,

my understanding is, there should be zero tolerance of discrimination

against people was pregnant and I agree, even though it

can cause disruption. We'll have to leave it

there for this week. For now, back to Andrew

for the rest of the show. you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back

to you. So, can George Osborne stay

on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force

a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas

and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?

They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.

Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it

was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's

Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May

on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.

But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP

for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,

Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of

While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,

an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him

Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow

at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,

And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,

he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking

around ?750,000 since last summer.

So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,

though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow

MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that

kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy

about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting

appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre

right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been

on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they

are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.

So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to

condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are

all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the

degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard

was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it

was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be

overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.

But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms

have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who

used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on

television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank

account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,

Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to

see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the

Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David

Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.

Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is

sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I

was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble

journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am

everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage

everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.

What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption

about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He

thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of

message does that send to people about how seriously people take the

role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The

Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the

proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some

kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback

there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished

yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne

cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and

tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see

already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!

Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've

never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not

bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own

future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be

Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a

new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an

MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The

Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to

make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day

and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The

news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in

your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not

over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.

School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky

one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this

through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a

small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.

Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not

going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been

on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether

they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something

possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you

can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there

are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go

ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the

country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in

certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,

the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being

mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate

more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in

the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on

schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to

be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,

NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip

Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There

was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested

perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at

passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when

it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we

study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and

quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May

is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it

wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed

Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us

see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of

argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday

was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the

speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in

intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As

you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more

cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the

industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain

markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there

comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face

rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel

bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two

things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food

bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she

has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen

to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.

They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk

and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree

with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on

this and the principle of continually talking about

interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on

energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the

world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are

open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing

this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem

in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't

operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,

the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you

should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest

explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,

this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the

meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty

government action on this for quite some time. For the just about

managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated

by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and

centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by

the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral

because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming

into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went

very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there

was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do

to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing

Street. We await to see the actions taken.

On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics

will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.

And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

I've not given myself that time to sit down

Two years ago, former England captain Rio Ferdinand lost his wife