Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:47. | :00:47. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
done" - we'll speak to him and the party's | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
Here: the latest view on Brexit from north east businesses. | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
And Labour unveils ambitious plans to re-open rail lines | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
and invest in the metro - but are voters listening? | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:18. | :01:29. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:12. | :02:19. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:03. | :05:04. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:15. | :05:25. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:07. | :06:08. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:13. | :06:22. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:38. | :06:45. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:54. | :07:02. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:10. | :11:11. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:12. | :11:19. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:46. | :11:47. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:53. | :11:54. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:18. | :14:19. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :15:59. | :16:07. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:37. | :16:45. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:50. | :16:58. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:02. | :18:13. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:54. | :20:02. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:01. | :21:17. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:53. | :22:01. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:50. | :22:59. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:19. | :24:29. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:23. | :25:24. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:29. | :25:30. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:31. | :25:32. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:33. | :25:34. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:35. | :25:36. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :25:57. | :25:58. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:02. | :26:02. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:25. | :26:26. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:27. | :26:35. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:42. | :26:51. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:12. | :28:20. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:43. | :28:58. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:01. | :30:02. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:23. | :30:33. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:10. | :31:25. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:26. | :31:27. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :32:57. | :33:05. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:43. | :33:49. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:52. | :34:59. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:17. | :37:25. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:14. | :38:22. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very much. | :38:35. | :38:50. | |
Hello and welcome to your local part of the show | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
This week: A future Labour government offers an ambitious plan | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
to re-open old rail lines and invest hundreds of millions | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
But amid all the party splits, is anybody listening? | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
I'll be asking Newcastle Central MP Chi Onwurah | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
But first - it's been a traumatic week at Westminster. | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
Party politics obviously taking a back seat given | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
Chi Onwura, you were in Parliament at the time. What was the experience | :39:25. | :39:39. | |
was locked in the chamber for five was locked in the chamber for five | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
hours, we felt reasonably secure, Park at certain times when we could | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
hear noises and shouting. But it was the shock, and particularly the | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
policeman, the time we knew he had been stabbed, but we didn't know he | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
had been killed. It was a huge shock, and just think that | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
Parliament was under attack, under siege, and that the blood side had | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
been mown down by a vicious murderer, that was obviously very | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
shocking. And also having constituents their staff, it is a | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
huge place, there was a lot of huge place, there was a lot of | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
uncertainty, but also a lot of gallows humour and camaraderie. I | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
learned a lot about many of my conservative colleagues that I | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
didn't know. Lord Kirkhope, you were there as well. Yes, and I was | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
evacuated with many others into Westminster Abbey is literally a | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
sanctuary for us all for quite a number of hours. And there was a | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
recent concern. But I must admit that I thought the police and the | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
authorities were calm and collected, and as a result of that, there | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
wasn't any panic at all, which I thought was very commendable in the | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
circumstances. Yes, I must add that the House of Commons and House of | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Lords staff were amazing, and the doorkeepers. They were so | :41:09. | :41:10. | |
supportive, so helpful and saw coming. You will have time to | :41:11. | :41:21. | |
reflect on this and on the Jo Cox murder, reflecting on how safe you | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
feel as an MP and your staff as well. What is your view? Edited the | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
shocking and disturbing, and the shocking and disturbing, and the | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
difference between knowing in theory that you may be a target and feeling | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
it is huge. But we're going to review security but in the | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
constituency and in Parliament. Basically it is still the same, that | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
I need to be accessible, Parliament, democracy to function needs to be | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
open and transparent, and we do need to be accessible. And that is the | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
balance that we have to get right. And I don't think we can move it | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
much further to words more security that acts as a barrier to engagement | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
with the public. Lord Kirkhope, you Rob Lee see an MP as well, but wind | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
and opened Chrissy. Do you think things have moved on drastically | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
from when you were an MP. This event was exactly a year after the | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
atrocities in Brussels where I was actually a few hundred yards away | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
from where that one went off in the underground station. But I think the | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
important thing is that the Prime Minister got it absolutely right, | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
when she said we will not waver in the face of terrorism. Democracy | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
will prevail. And that is something that is important in the way that we | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
do things. And I know that working together, there was no sort of... | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
Politically improper people closer together, in the Lords as well as | :42:52. | :42:53. | |
the Commons, and I think that was important. The resolution to do what | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
is necessary to protect the citizens of the country and around situation. | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
But not to allow ourselves to be distracted. We all pay a price. | :43:05. | :43:12. | |
Public life, I'm sure you do as an MP. Perhaps a Lord is not quite so | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
important in that sense because we are not elected anymore, but we all | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
pay a price life being public figures. That is a fact. And the | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
quite dangerous. But at the same time we must not allow ourselves to | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
do things in such a way that we can no longer serve people. Yes, I first | :43:32. | :43:39. | |
entered Parliament are shocked by the police with machine guns. It was | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
the first time I had worked in an environment where security was so | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
visible. Now, obviously recognising the huge sacrifice that the police | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
and Keith Palmer specifically made, I find it reassuring rather than | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
shocking. But we do need to make sure that... As I was leaving | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
Parliament on Wednesday evening a police officer apologised to me for | :44:07. | :44:14. | |
keeping MPs waiting. Which actually made me almost want to cry in a way, | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
but at the same time it is very British. As parliamentarians, it is | :44:19. | :44:28. | |
the values that we won't uphold in Parliament, and I think that with | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
got to work together to make sure that we maintain that. The open | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
democracy that people can see and touch. And you go to review security | :44:37. | :44:45. | |
measures sensibly, presumably. There has to be a full review as always | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
when these things happen. I remember when I was in the Home Office we had | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
terrorism issues to deal with at that time. Life was dangerous then | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
as well. It is dangerous in a different way now. Probably more so, | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
but you learn lessons from these things. You do things. But at the | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
you're still sufficiently accessible you're still sufficiently accessible | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
to the people you need to work for will stop let's hope we're not | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
discussing to many more events like that in the future. | :45:14. | :45:14. | |
Well, despite the attacks, political business does continue. | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
And Labour's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell used a visit to Newcastle | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
It was a significant announcement with new rolling stock | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
on the Tyne and Wear Metro, old railway lines re-opened | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
and improvements to stations in Darlington and Middlesbrough. | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
Yet in the face of continued party in-fighting and unrest, | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
is anybody listening to Labour's plans? | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
It's a real pleasure to be back in Newcastle. A Labour Shadow | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
Chancellor in Newcastle, committing to a huge investment in the region's | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
transport network. ?2000 per head invested in transport | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
infrastructure. , ?200 per head in the north-east coast that cannot be | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
fair. It holds back investment and holds back jobs and wages. We are | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
trying to give a commitment. Based on the assessment of what is needed. | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
That comes from local authorities, from real candidates and Mayor 's | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
coming forward and local MPs saying, these are the improvements we need | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
to generate industry and jobs. If you like railways, the commitment to | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
all your Christmases at once. John McDonnell promise more than ?530 | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
million for new trains on the Tyne Wear Metro. ?300 million to reopen | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
another line, and a to restart us your services on the Ashington wife | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
and timeline. At ?400 million of improvements on Teesside. In total | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
more than ?1.4 billion committed in just one speech, funded through | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
borrowing. Welcome news for campaigners who want this freight | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
only line to Tyneside to come to life with passengers. We welcome | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
announcements from any political parties. We starve George Osborne | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
always talking about his Northern powerhouse, but that seemed to | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
finish at Leeds. Money is essential, and whichever party is in government | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
at the minute, we ask them to commit to funding this scheme. The biggest | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
investment promise was on Tyne Wear's under pressure Metro. Dog by | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
problems and still using trains built when Jim Callaghan was Prime | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
Minister. But have passengers even notice the announcement? I never | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
seen it. It is needed, so that they run on time. I use the Metro every | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
day, but I haven't heard anything about the announcement, so I can't | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
give you an informed opinion. Nothing. No. You have heard about | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
it? You're the first one. Yes, there should be investment in the Metro. | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
No, don't know anything about it. Nothing at all. Perhaps the messages | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
on getting through to most because they were's current performances | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
even Rob than the Metro. 15 points behind in the opinion polls and dog | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
by division. It looks like a long journey to power. The government's | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
Northern powerhouse minister was keen to pour cold water when he | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
visited Teesside. They come up here, tell us how terrible everything is, | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
then make all these promises on the back of money that doesn't exist. | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
They don't have the money. Nobody thinks Labour's economic plans are | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
credible. Judge them when they were in power. We got relatively worse | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
off. It has been this Conservative government that has been billions of | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
pounds into transport improvements. There's no question of voters and | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
businesses want more investment. Questions remain about whether | :48:46. | :48:47. | |
Labour will ever get the chance to match their rhetoric on real with | :48:48. | :48:49. | |
results. Chi Onwura, live's economic | :48:50. | :49:00. | |
reputation was trashed post 2010. Borrowing 1.4 billion to invest in | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
transport, which is part ?100 billion that John McDonnell wants to | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
put into this infrastructure bank. It is not credible, is it? The | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
National Infrastructure Plan will be 200 billion of public sector money | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
and 200 billion of private sector money which will be used for a | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
number of schemes. But this is fantastic news, as someone who was | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
here when the Metro was first built in 1981 and would love it to the | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
world leading as it was then, it is absolutely right. But on the | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
specifics, because for the last specifics, because for the last | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
coalition government and the Tory government and doing is borrowing | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
more, not to invest in our infrastructure, borrowing more | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
because they cannot get growth into our economy. Borrowing as a | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
percentage of GDP has gone up under the Tories and the coalition | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
government, and they are ten years late on a five-year plan. As anyone | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
knows, if you are borrowing to invest which gets a return. On | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
Friday I was at the launch of Tech nation, which is all about how the | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
north-east is doing fantastic new businesses in the tech sector. One | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
of the big issues was transport. You cannot get to Newcastle from | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
Middlesbrough in a decent amount of times that these companies can | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
attract new employers to get the skills. Transport is crucial and | :50:24. | :50:31. | |
investing in means a return. It was a bold, ambitious announcement. I | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
have pored over budgets in the last few years looking for crumbs and | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
investment here and there from the government. This is pretty big | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
stuff. I can go out and make an announcement like that because I am | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
just as likely to be in charge of the government as the Labour Party | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
is. We have put an enormous amount of money, as long as I have been in | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
politics, 40 years, we have been putting money into, and positively | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
into, the north-east and the rest of the North of England. But a lot more | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
going to London. Outside of London begin the second largest and per | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
capita public spending in the north-east. Why do we have good | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
transport links? Inserted with Heseltine years ago. The motorways | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
of the north-east are mostly as a result of Conservative government. | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
There are no motorways. As far as I'm aware there are. I have studied | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
were John McDonnell said. Amid a very unfair remark. He said that for | :51:27. | :51:34. | |
decades under investment by distant governments and their corporate | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
allies have resulted in failures in the north-east of it. Can I just | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
tell you that many small and medium-sized businesses around the | :51:42. | :51:43. | |
north-east at the moment are investing, the successes that there | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
have been in this area, feel those remarks to be not helpful. We should | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
be looking at a positive attitude to the north-east. If the Labour Party | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
can only come up with this stuff, I'm afraid that is not very good for | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
the future. Talking down the region is the accusation. We, the Labour | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
Party, are the champions, and particularly in Parliament, where | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
the idea that the Northern powerhouse go north of Osborne's | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
constituency is radical. And of course now he'll be focusing on | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
London. We recognise the huge successes, like said about the tech | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
sector, the health sector, our skills sector. But that is with huge | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
barriers, and the lack of investment in our infrastructure has held us | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
back. Enterprise zones, development corporations, all of that under | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Conservative governments. That is all around the edges. Let us get | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
proper investment in infrastructure we can do the rest. The problem is, | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
as we saw, is anybody taking notice? as we saw, is anybody taking notice? | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
Given how far behind you are in opinion polls and the headlines are | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
about Labour divisions. I recognise that. And we certainly have not got | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
our media management where we need to be. But you see the increasing | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
division in the government, that's why there was a huge climb-down over | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
the budget because you cannot keep your backbench MPs online, and this | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
debate is now being heard in Whitehall about why I'm investing in | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
the South? Why do all the calculation see more figures in the | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
South. Ten times more investment in London in the north-east. Is that | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
fair? Transport specifically, undoubtedly there is more money in | :53:39. | :53:40. | |
London, and I agree we should spend more money, but I don't think the | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
Labour Party's plan, bearing in mind the whole roll call me of this | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
country, makes any practical sense. And we should be recognising the | :53:51. | :53:52. | |
great achievements of the north-east, indeed the wider | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
northern part of our country. That's a good thing. Encouraging people not | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
going on like that. We have had years of austerity, which means that | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
most people are worse off than they were ten years ago. We need | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
investment to get growth so that investment in infrastructure to give | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
us the growth so that we have jobs. Borrowing to invest a sensible. We | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
all should invest but should try to have an investment that is not just | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
investment by government. It has to be investment also by the private | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
sector, and the north-east has been very successful in recent years in | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
raising them and investment it is from the private sector. | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
Now as Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit on Wednesday, | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
a survey of North East businesses this weekend suggests | :54:38. | :54:39. | |
many are concerned about what the future will hold. | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
The North East of England Chamber of Commerce questioned its members | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
over the last month and released the results to the BBC. | :54:48. | :54:49. | |
More on that now - and the rest of the week's | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
Asked what impact they think the UK leaving the European Union will | :54:53. | :55:00. | |
have on exports, 59 Northeast companies, 40% of those who | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
replied to the survey, said it would make things worse. | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
Half also thought young people's job prospects will also suffer. | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
Ross Smith from the Chamber gave his reaction. | :55:15. | :55:16. | |
Overall, this shows that government has not | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
convinced businesses in the north-east yet that they can | :55:19. | :55:20. | |
It does not mean it cannot be done, but they will have to negotiate very | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
hard to get the best possible deal and then | :55:26. | :55:27. | |
implement it effectively so that it | :55:28. | :55:29. | |
Sunderland is one of ten places in the UK to become | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
It will get over ?840,000 to restore all buildings. | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
Appleby in Cumbria will also receive cash. | :55:39. | :55:40. | |
Wansbeck MP Ian Lavery apologised for a breach in Commons | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
He failed to register that his former employer, the NUM, held a | :55:44. | :55:56. | |
And Northumberland Council has been told | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
to replace 90 trees chopped down in Morpork. | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
Les Stocker Road in business survey on Brexit. It is one survey, | :56:06. | :56:16. | |
admittedly, but on balance businesses so exports and the common | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
worsening after Brexit. That has to be worrying. It is realistic to the | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
extent that people are concerned about what will happen. It's no | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
secret of the fact that I wish in many ways people have been a | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
different decision last year. But they made the decision they did an | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
government is following it now. And the situation is that businesses and | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
others are nervous about the future. I think our legislators have to be | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
nervous about the future, but at the same time they have to find | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
solutions that can give confidence like to people in business, back to | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
people like the Chamber of Commerce. That will be a great challenge but | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
it is something we are facing as a result of the decision. Business | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
might want to see a change of direction. Pessimism might be based | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
on the kind of Brexit Prime Minister is pursuing. We don't know what sort | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
of Brexit we're going to get. She has made it clear she is going to | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
prioritise immigration, for instance, over access to the single | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
market, and she is prepared to do no deal rather than a bad deal. I guess | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
that is what might be influencing. I don't think it is going to work like | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
that. As far as I'm concerned, there will be a number of baskets of | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
things, all very important. Security is something I'm interested in, how | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
we continue close religion ships within Europe. Trade is another | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
matter immigration and movement of people is something clearly dictated | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
and what people said at the time. and what people said at the time. | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
Week to get that into some sort of order. It will be conjugated, no | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
doubt. I hope we will be able to resolve it the best way we can to | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
get a good result here, including for these businesses that are | :58:02. | :58:03. | |
undoubtedly liked all of us are at this stage are little nervous. Chi | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
Onwura, businesses were nervous about Brexit. We have not moved on | :58:11. | :58:18. | |
yet, it is still in that context, isn't it? Orders concerning about | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
this report is it shows that there is less confidence now following | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
Brexit, even though some of the economic news since Brexit has been | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
trailed as being better than expected. I think the simple reason | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
that is that the government is showing total lack of leadership. I | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
was not in favour of Brexit, but now that we have, now that it is | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
happening, we have to show leadership. She has shown a clear | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
direction of travel. You may not agree, but it is clear. It is | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
leadership off a cliff. No deal is better than a bad deal? Without even | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
doing the analysis of what the impact of no deal would be. There is | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
no understanding of what the impact of no deal is. Of course businesses | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
are uncertain. It is only big companies like Nissan to get the | :59:12. | :59:18. | |
special deals. We have not started the negotiations. We do not know | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
what will be offered to us and what we will have to go for in the end. | :59:23. | :59:24. | |
Talking about clarity, I think it Talking about clarity, I think it | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
would be nonsensical to suggest that we're not clear but for instance the | :59:30. | :59:31. | |
Labour Party is. I think there is a Labour Party is. I think there is a | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
lack of clarity here in certain areas because we have not started | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
this negotiation. A lot of people would say that the Labour Party has | :59:42. | :59:43. | |
not achieved a great deal in this process. It hasn't got the | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
government to roll back on anything. The government has shown a total | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
lack of willingness to listen. A total lack of understanding or | :59:53. | :59:59. | |
analysis. But let's be clear, we are very clear about the sort of economy | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
we want, we want a high skills, high wage economy with access to the | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
single market. The Conservative Party, their idea for a no deal | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
of tax haven. That is changing our of tax haven. That is changing our | :00:16. | :00:24. | |
economic model. There will not be a no deal situation. We will get a | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
deal, and that deal is going to be hard fought for, but it has to be as | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
good as we can get. Do you think Boris and David have the skills, the | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
negotiating skills? I wouldn't dream of commenting on my colleagues in | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
that sense. 27 nations have to agree to this. Not only that but also the | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
European Parliament that I have just left, they have to agree a deal at | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
the end of the day. Perhaps wanting would say, and this applies not just | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
my but others are other parties, they have to learn the realism of | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
what we have here, and how these decisions have to be taken and | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
endorsed. That in itself is a diplomatic challenge of quite a high | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
order. We will get through it unsure. We just have to be realistic | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
about the circumstances. One reason for the lack of confidence is all | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
the European Union nationals in the north-east working in universities | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
and the NHS in companies who do not know what is happening. We welcome | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
them and we need them and we will always keep them, I'm sure. The fact | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
we not guaranteeing their rights. And that's about it | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
from us for this week. On the BBC's Look North Facebook | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
account next week - we'll be talking to young people | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
in Sunderland about how we don't have any more time! Thank | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you. | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday | :01:53. | :02:09. | |
at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion - | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat, | :02:17. | :02:17. | |
And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday, | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
will trigger Article 50, formally starting | :02:22. | :02:22. | |
The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
made an appeal for unity at the gathering. | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors. | :02:37. | :02:45. | |
At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds, | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on | :02:55. | :03:14. | |
that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years, | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent. | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that | :04:09. | :04:26. | |
doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the | :04:41. | :04:42. | |
Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
process, people looking at this would think it is Mission: | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well, | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me! | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements? | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
which could really result in a change of Government... That is the | :06:37. | :06:49. | |
big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see, | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form | :07:49. | :08:00. | |
a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU | :09:30. | :09:41. | |
march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people | :09:56. | :10:04. | |
like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be, | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean. | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free | :10:55. | :11:12. | |
movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want | :11:30. | :11:31. | |
external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
everywhere else where there are British citizens would have | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always. | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow | :13:17. | :13:18. | |
night from Birmingham - with guests including | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer, | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond - | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One. | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's | :13:31. | :13:34. |