07/05/2017 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


07/05/2017

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by Labour's shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon and Ukip's Neil Hamilton to discuss the local election results.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:41.

The local election results made grim reading for Labour.

:00:42.:00:44.

With just a month to go until the general election,

:00:45.:00:48.

will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help

:00:49.:00:51.

The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,

:00:52.:00:57.

as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got

:00:58.:00:59.

But is there still really all to play for?

:01:00.:01:07.

And tonight we will find out who is the next

:01:08.:01:11.

President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -

:01:12.:01:14.

after an unpredictable campaign that ended with a hack attack

:01:15.:01:17.

Here: a Tory earthquake hits politics in the North East

:01:18.:01:20.

and Cumbria - can Labour do anything before the General Election

:01:21.:01:22.

to stop swathes of their heartland turning blue?

:01:23.:01:27.

elections but we are looking at the potential impact in marginals next

:01:28.:01:31.

month. If Ukip support continues to evaporate...

:01:32.:01:38.

And joining me for all of that, three journalists ready

:01:39.:01:41.

to analyse the week's politics with all the forensic

:01:42.:01:44.

focus of Diane Abbott preparing for an interview,

:01:45.:01:48.

and all the relaxed, slogan-free banter of Theresa May

:01:49.:01:50.

It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

:01:51.:01:56.

So, the Conservatives are promising, if re-elected, to change mental

:01:57.:02:03.

health laws in England and Wales to tackle discrimination,

:02:04.:02:06.

and they're promising 10,000 more staff working in NHS mental health

:02:07.:02:12.

treatment in England by 2020 - although how that's to be

:02:13.:02:14.

Here's Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt speaking

:02:15.:02:17.

There is a lot of new money going into it.

:02:18.:02:25.

In January, we said we were going to put an extra ?1 billion

:02:26.:02:28.

Does this come from other parts of the NHS, or is it

:02:29.:02:32.

No, it is new money going into the NHS

:02:33.:02:35.

It's not just of course money, it's having the people

:02:36.:02:42.

who deliver these jobs, which is why we need

:02:43.:02:44.

Well, we're joined now from Norwich by the Liberal Democrat health

:02:45.:02:49.

This weekend, they've launched their own health announcement,

:02:50.:02:52.

promising a 1% rise on every income tax band to fund the NHS.

:02:53.:03:01.

Do you welcome the Conservatives putting mental health onto the

:03:02.:03:07.

campaign agenda in the way that they have? I welcome it being on the

:03:08.:03:11.

campaign agenda but I do fear that the announcement is built on thin

:03:12.:03:16.

air. You raised the issue at the start about the 10,000 extra staff,

:03:17.:03:21.

and questions surrounding how it would be paid for. There is no

:03:22.:03:25.

additional money on what they have already announced for the NHS. We

:03:26.:03:32.

know it falls massively short on the expectation of the funding gap

:03:33.:03:36.

which, by 2020, is likely to be about 30 billion. That is not

:03:37.:03:40.

disputed now. Anyone outside of the government, wherever you are on the

:03:41.:03:44.

political spectrum, knows the money going in is simply not enough. So,

:03:45.:03:53.

rather like the claim that they would add 5000 GPs to the workforce

:03:54.:03:59.

by 2020, that is not on target. Latest figures show a fall in the

:04:00.:04:03.

number of GPs. They make these claims, but I'm afraid they are

:04:04.:04:07.

without substance, unless they are prepared to put money behind it.

:04:08.:04:11.

Your party's solution to the money problem is to put a 1% percentage

:04:12.:04:21.

point on all of the bands of income tax to raise more money 20-45. Is

:04:22.:04:27.

that unfair? Most pensioners who consume 40% of NHS spending, but

:04:28.:04:35.

over 65s only pay about 20% of income tax. Are you penalising the

:04:36.:04:39.

younger generations for the health care of an older generation? It is

:04:40.:04:45.

the first step in what we are describing as a 5-point recovery

:04:46.:04:49.

plan for the NHS and care system. So, for what is available to us now,

:04:50.:04:55.

it seems to be the fairest way of bringing in extra resources, income

:04:56.:04:59.

tax is progressive, and is based on your ability to pay for your average

:05:00.:05:04.

British worker. It would be ?3 per week which is the cost of less than

:05:05.:05:09.

two cups of coffee per week. In the longer run, we say that by the end

:05:10.:05:14.

of the next Parliament, we would be able to introduce a dedicated NHS

:05:15.:05:21.

and care tax. Based, probably, around a reformed national insurance

:05:22.:05:26.

system, so it becomes a dedicated NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the

:05:27.:05:31.

former permanent secretary of the Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said

:05:32.:05:35.

clearly that this idea merits further consideration which is the

:05:36.:05:39.

first time anyone for the Treasury has bought into the idea of this.

:05:40.:05:46.

Let me ask you this. You say it is a small amount of tax that people on

:05:47.:05:49.

average incomes will have to pay extra. We are talking about people

:05:50.:05:53.

who have seen no real increases to their income since 2007. They have

:05:54.:06:00.

been struggling to stand still in terms of their own pay, but you are

:06:01.:06:05.

going to add to their tax, and as I said earlier, most of the health

:06:06.:06:09.

care money will then go to pensioners whose incomes have risen

:06:10.:06:15.

by 15%. I'm interested in the fairness of this redistribution?

:06:16.:06:19.

Bearing in mind first of all, Andrew, that the raising of the tax

:06:20.:06:23.

threshold that the Liberal Democrats pushed through in the coalition

:06:24.:06:29.

increased the effective pay in your pocket for basic rate taxpayers by

:06:30.:06:35.

about ?1000. We are talking about a tiny fraction of that. I suppose

:06:36.:06:40.

that you do have to ask, all of us in this country need to ask

:06:41.:06:44.

ourselves this question... Are we prepared to pay, in terms of the

:06:45.:06:48.

average worker, about ?3 extra per week to give us a guarantee that

:06:49.:06:53.

when our loved ones need that care, in their hour of need, perhaps

:06:54.:06:59.

suspected cancer, that care will be available for them? I have heard two

:07:00.:07:04.

cases recently brought my attention. An elderly couple, the wife has a

:07:05.:07:09.

very bad hip. They could not allow the weight to continue. She was told

:07:10.:07:13.

that she would need to wait 26 weeks, she was in acute pain. They

:07:14.:07:18.

then deduct paying ?20,000 for private treatment to circumvent

:07:19.:07:22.

waiting time. They hated doing it, because they did not want to jump

:07:23.:07:26.

the queue. But that is what is increasingly happening. Sorry to

:07:27.:07:31.

interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make very good points but we are short on

:07:32.:07:38.

time today. One final question, it looks like you might have the chance

:07:39.:07:41.

to do any of this, I'm told the best you can hope to do internally is to

:07:42.:07:45.

double the number of seats you have, which would only take you to 18. Do

:07:46.:07:51.

you think that promising to raise people's income tax, even those on

:07:52.:07:56.

average earnings, is a vote winner? I think the people in this country

:07:57.:08:00.

are crying out for politicians to be straight and tenet as it is. At the

:08:01.:08:05.

moment we heading towards a Conservative landslide... -- tell it

:08:06.:08:12.

as it is. But do we want a 1-party state? We are electing a government

:08:13.:08:17.

not only to deal with the crucial Brexit negotiations, but oversee the

:08:18.:08:21.

stewardship of the NHS and funding of our schools, all of these

:08:22.:08:25.

critical issues. We need an effective opposition and with the

:08:26.:08:29.

Labour Party having taken itself off stage, the Liberal Democrats need to

:08:30.:08:32.

provide an effective opposition. Norman Lamb, thank you for joining

:08:33.:08:34.

us this morning. Thank you. Labour and Tories are anxious

:08:35.:08:38.

to stress the general election result is not a foregone conclusion,

:08:39.:08:42.

whatever the polls say. Order you just heard Norman Lamb say

:08:43.:08:46.

there that he thought the Conservatives were heading for a

:08:47.:08:48.

landslide... But did Thursday's dramatic set

:08:49.:08:51.

of local election results in England, Scotland and Wales give

:08:52.:08:53.

us a better idea of how the country Here's Emma Vardy with

:08:54.:08:57.

a behind-the-scenes look at how Good morning, it's seven o'clock

:08:58.:09:00.

on Friday, May 5th... The dawn of another results day.

:09:01.:09:04.

Anticipation hung in the air. Early results from the local

:09:05.:09:09.

elections in England suggest there's been a substantial swing

:09:10.:09:14.

from Labour to the Conservatives. While the pros did their thing,

:09:15.:09:16.

I needed breakfast. Don't tell anyone, but I'm

:09:17.:09:20.

going to pinch a sausage. The overnight counts had delivered

:09:21.:09:23.

successes for the Tories. But with most councils

:09:24.:09:25.

only getting started, there was plenty of action

:09:26.:09:26.

still to come. It's not quite the night

:09:27.:09:32.

of Labour's nightmares. There's enough mixed news

:09:33.:09:34.

in Wales, for example - looks like they're about to hold

:09:35.:09:36.

Cardiff - that they'll try and put But in really simple terms,

:09:37.:09:40.

four weeks from a general election, the Tories are going forward

:09:41.:09:46.

and Labour are going backwards. How does it compare being

:09:47.:09:49.

in here to doing the telly? Huw, how do you prepare yourself

:09:50.:09:54.

for a long day of results, then? We're not even on air yet,

:09:55.:10:00.

as you can see, and already in Tory HQ this morning,

:10:01.:10:06.

there's a kind of, "Oh, I'm scared this will make people

:10:07.:10:09.

think the election's just I think leave it

:10:10.:10:12.

like that - perfect. I want the Laura look.

:10:13.:10:15.

This is really good, isn't it? Usually, we're in here

:10:16.:10:18.

for the Daily Politics. But it's been transformed

:10:19.:10:22.

for the Election Results programme. But hours went by without Ukip

:10:23.:10:27.

winning a single seat. The joke going around

:10:28.:10:39.

Lincolnshire County Council today from the Conservatives

:10:40.:10:45.

is that the Tories have eaten We will rebrand

:10:46.:10:48.

and come back strong. Morale, I think, is inevitably

:10:49.:10:51.

going to take a bit of a tumble. Particularly if Theresa May starts

:10:52.:10:57.

backsliding on Brexit. And then I think we will be

:10:58.:11:00.

totally reinvigorated. There are a lot of good people

:11:01.:11:02.

in Ukip and I wouldn't want to say anything unkind,

:11:03.:11:05.

but we all know it's over. Ukip press officer.

:11:06.:11:08.

Difficult job. Ukip weren't the only ones

:11:09.:11:12.

putting a brave face on it. Labour were experiencing

:11:13.:11:16.

their own disaster day too, losing hundreds of seats

:11:17.:11:19.

and seven councils. If the result is what these

:11:20.:11:23.

results appear to indicate, Can we have a quick word

:11:24.:11:27.

for the Sunday Politics? A quick question for Sunday Politics

:11:28.:11:32.

- how are you feeling? Downhearted or fired up for June?

:11:33.:11:40.

Fired up, absolutely fired up. He's fired up.

:11:41.:11:45.

We're going to go out there... We cannot go on with another

:11:46.:11:47.

five years of this. How's it been for you today?

:11:48.:11:49.

Tiring. It always is, but I love elections,

:11:50.:11:52.

I really enjoy them. Yes, you know, obviously we're

:11:53.:11:55.

disappointed at some of the results, it's been a mixed bag,

:11:56.:11:59.

but some opinion polls and commentators predicted we'd be

:12:00.:12:02.

wiped out - we haven't. As for the Lib Dems,

:12:03.:12:07.

not the resurgence they hoped for, After a dead heat in Northumberland,

:12:08.:12:09.

the control of a whole council came The section of England

:12:10.:12:17.

in which we had elections yesterday was the section of England

:12:18.:12:26.

that was most likely to vote Leave. When you go to sleep at night,

:12:27.:12:30.

do you just have election results The answer is if that's still

:12:31.:12:33.

happening, I don't get to sleep. There we go.

:12:34.:12:39.

Maybe practice some yoga... Thank you very much

:12:40.:12:41.

but I have one here. With the introduction

:12:42.:12:46.

of six regional mayors, Labour's Andy Burnham

:12:47.:12:49.

became Mr Manchester. But by the time Corbyn came

:12:50.:12:52.

to celebrate, the new mayor We want you to stay for a second

:12:53.:12:55.

because I've got some I used to present news,

:12:56.:13:01.

as you probably know. I used to present BBC

:13:02.:13:04.

Breakfast in the morning. The SNP had notable successes,

:13:05.:13:06.

ending 40 years of Labour What did you prefer -

:13:07.:13:09.

presenting or politics? And it certainly had been a hard day

:13:10.:13:15.

at the office for some. Ukip's foothold in local government

:13:16.:13:22.

was all but wiped out, leaving the Conservatives

:13:23.:13:26.

with their best local So another election results

:13:27.:13:28.

day draws to a close. But don't worry, we'll be doing it

:13:29.:13:33.

all again in five weeks' time. For now, though, that's your lot.

:13:34.:13:39.

Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,

:13:40.:13:51.

and what they might mean for the wider fortunes

:13:52.:13:53.

In England, there were elections for 34 councils.

:13:54.:14:06.

The Conservatives took control of ten of them,

:14:07.:14:07.

gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained

:14:08.:14:09.

While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,

:14:10.:14:14.

and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.

:14:15.:14:20.

In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing

:14:21.:14:22.

a third of their seats, and control of three councils -

:14:23.:14:25.

while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.

:14:26.:14:27.

In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,

:14:28.:14:31.

There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party

:14:32.:14:37.

after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,

:14:38.:14:39.

although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.

:14:40.:14:46.

We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.

:14:47.:14:49.

You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.

:14:50.:14:53.

In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the

:14:54.:15:06.

general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May

:15:07.:15:11.

wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning

:15:12.:15:15.

a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local

:15:16.:15:18.

election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win

:15:19.:15:22.

the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course

:15:23.:15:27.

people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were

:15:28.:15:30.

double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas

:15:31.:15:35.

the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point

:15:36.:15:42.

Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a

:15:43.:15:44.

landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in

:15:45.:15:47.

England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative

:15:48.:15:51.

lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that

:15:52.:15:57.

she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about

:15:58.:16:01.

who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but

:16:02.:16:05.

there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves

:16:06.:16:08.

her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The

:16:09.:16:13.

local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is

:16:14.:16:17.

going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most

:16:18.:16:21.

prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep

:16:22.:16:26.

the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary

:16:27.:16:30.

Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election

:16:31.:16:34.

results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I

:16:35.:16:39.

looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the

:16:40.:16:44.

general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both

:16:45.:16:49.

local elections in these years, but come the general election, they

:16:50.:16:52.

added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen

:16:53.:16:57.

again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.

:16:58.:17:01.

Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local

:17:02.:17:05.

elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in

:17:06.:17:11.

1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.

:17:12.:17:16.

In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --

:17:17.:17:22.

their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition

:17:23.:17:25.

campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of

:17:26.:17:29.

Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth

:17:30.:17:33.

noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip

:17:34.:17:38.

voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to

:17:39.:17:41.

increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,

:17:42.:17:44.

the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the

:17:45.:17:50.

party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the

:17:51.:17:56.

Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we

:17:57.:18:00.

should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in

:18:01.:18:05.

the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper

:18:06.:18:11.

forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is

:18:12.:18:13.

producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum

:18:14.:18:18.

has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,

:18:19.:18:22.

the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do

:18:23.:18:30.

you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially

:18:31.:18:33.

disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional

:18:34.:18:36.

question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been

:18:37.:18:41.

faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively

:18:42.:18:45.

disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south

:18:46.:18:50.

of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly

:18:51.:18:53.

the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the

:18:54.:18:58.

leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they

:18:59.:19:03.

will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the

:19:04.:19:07.

remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa

:19:08.:19:17.

May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote

:19:18.:19:21.

has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining

:19:22.:19:29.

us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I

:19:30.:19:33.

wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced

:19:34.:19:38.

fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the

:19:39.:19:45.

centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.

:19:46.:19:50.

That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the

:19:51.:19:54.

argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,

:19:55.:19:59.

Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of

:20:00.:20:05.

the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue

:20:06.:20:14.

vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the

:20:15.:20:20.

spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like

:20:21.:20:24.

Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British

:20:25.:20:27.

politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact

:20:28.:20:31.

what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not

:20:32.:20:36.

something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,

:20:37.:20:39.

when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,

:20:40.:20:45.

dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad

:20:46.:20:49.

spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain

:20:50.:20:54.

have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like

:20:55.:20:59.

they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too

:21:00.:21:01.

small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest

:21:02.:21:06.

thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has

:21:07.:21:11.

limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We

:21:12.:21:17.

don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is

:21:18.:21:21.

some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a

:21:22.:21:25.

realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.

:21:26.:21:30.

Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the

:21:31.:21:33.

disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been

:21:34.:21:36.

saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They

:21:37.:21:41.

still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have

:21:42.:21:45.

picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a

:21:46.:21:49.

strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's

:21:50.:21:53.

very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel

:21:54.:21:57.

that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job

:21:58.:22:00.

done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour

:22:01.:22:05.

Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are

:22:06.:22:11.

shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has

:22:12.:22:15.

produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was

:22:16.:22:20.

called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the

:22:21.:22:24.

Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off

:22:25.:22:27.

editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party

:22:28.:22:34.

united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over

:22:35.:22:39.

Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David

:22:40.:22:42.

Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for

:22:43.:22:47.

this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because

:22:48.:22:51.

it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to

:22:52.:22:54.

take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at

:22:55.:23:01.

a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a

:23:02.:23:04.

united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a

:23:05.:23:07.

long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big

:23:08.:23:10.

campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no

:23:11.:23:12.

income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -

:23:13.:23:15.

which of course means those earning more than that could

:23:16.:23:18.

face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John

:23:19.:23:19.

McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone

:23:20.:23:29.

earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an

:23:30.:23:34.

increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.

:23:35.:23:37.

For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more

:23:38.:23:41.

to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be

:23:42.:23:46.

a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a

:23:47.:23:53.

society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.

:23:54.:23:55.

We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.

:23:56.:24:00.

Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be

:24:01.:24:07.

paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.

:24:08.:24:11.

But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would

:24:12.:24:18.

not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for

:24:19.:24:25.

the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners

:24:26.:24:28.

won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a

:24:29.:24:33.

policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell

:24:34.:24:36.

also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%

:24:37.:24:43.

of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying

:24:44.:24:48.

to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,

:24:49.:24:55.

you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's

:24:56.:24:57.

manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out

:24:58.:25:03.

and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set

:25:04.:25:13.

out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he

:25:14.:25:16.

is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis

:25:17.:25:21.

just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The

:25:22.:25:27.

polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was

:25:28.:25:32.

it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between

:25:33.:25:38.

now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.

:25:39.:25:43.

Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their

:25:44.:25:47.

share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way

:25:48.:25:57.

is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I

:25:58.:26:04.

satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is

:26:05.:26:08.

a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections

:26:09.:26:13.

are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to

:26:14.:26:17.

put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle

:26:18.:26:22.

income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You

:26:23.:26:27.

lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The

:26:28.:26:33.

journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an

:26:34.:26:36.

easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are

:26:37.:26:41.

comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the

:26:42.:26:45.

terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a

:26:46.:26:49.

challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are

:26:50.:26:53.

determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter

:26:54.:26:56.

policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took

:26:57.:27:04.

place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --

:27:05.:27:10.

took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of

:27:11.:27:15.

British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm

:27:16.:27:20.

election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after

:27:21.:27:25.

his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of

:27:26.:27:31.

mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all

:27:32.:27:35.

of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I

:27:36.:27:40.

am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused

:27:41.:27:45.

on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies

:27:46.:27:49.

like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum

:27:50.:27:55.

wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of

:27:56.:28:00.

earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and

:28:01.:28:04.

funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by

:28:05.:28:08.

the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives

:28:09.:28:13.

of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the

:28:14.:28:19.

few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to

:28:20.:28:23.

be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.

:28:24.:28:27.

You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy

:28:28.:28:31.

Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate

:28:32.:28:37.

his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview

:28:38.:28:41.

straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped

:28:42.:28:44.

him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the

:28:45.:28:51.

reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in

:28:52.:28:57.

Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into

:28:58.:29:00.

celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge

:29:01.:29:04.

him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to

:29:05.:29:08.

travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed

:29:09.:29:11.

on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?

:29:12.:29:17.

Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time

:29:18.:29:21.

with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy

:29:22.:29:28.

Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am

:29:29.:29:35.

convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat

:29:36.:29:40.

on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He

:29:41.:29:45.

said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour

:29:46.:29:50.

while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the

:29:51.:29:56.

doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my

:29:57.:30:01.

constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single

:30:02.:30:04.

voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest

:30:05.:30:10.

thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that

:30:11.:30:14.

people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even

:30:15.:30:19.

talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy

:30:20.:30:24.

Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum

:30:25.:30:30.

wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and

:30:31.:30:33.

sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under

:30:34.:30:37.

this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,

:30:38.:30:40.

but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,

:30:41.:30:46.

perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour

:30:47.:30:50.

leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on

:30:51.:30:53.

the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead

:30:54.:30:58.

the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won

:30:59.:31:03.

the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more

:31:04.:31:09.

might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of

:31:10.:31:13.

the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four

:31:14.:31:17.

weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see

:31:18.:31:22.

further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to

:31:23.:31:26.

Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my

:31:27.:31:30.

constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And

:31:31.:31:34.

also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She

:31:35.:31:38.

should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.

:31:39.:31:44.

Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary

:31:45.:31:49.

people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D

:31:50.:32:02.

and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do

:32:03.:32:08.

that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living

:32:09.:32:12.

standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the

:32:13.:32:15.

living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We

:32:16.:32:20.

have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you

:32:21.:32:22.

for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's

:32:23.:32:25.

elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party

:32:26.:32:30.

won its best ever local government performance,

:32:31.:32:33.

but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote

:32:34.:32:35.

plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously

:32:36.:32:38.

benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for

:32:39.:32:42.

the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now

:32:43.:32:44.

by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,

:32:45.:32:46.

Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip

:32:47.:32:57.

finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the

:32:58.:33:01.

Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't

:33:02.:33:07.

it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go

:33:08.:33:13.

out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney

:33:14.:33:18.

war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from

:33:19.:33:22.

Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime

:33:23.:33:25.

Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one

:33:26.:33:29.

of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really

:33:30.:33:35.

looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a

:33:36.:33:38.

lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our

:33:39.:33:43.

part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the

:33:44.:33:48.

moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to

:33:49.:33:54.

shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing

:33:55.:33:58.

on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their

:33:59.:34:01.

minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime

:34:02.:34:07.

Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong

:34:08.:34:11.

in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back

:34:12.:34:17.

her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last

:34:18.:34:23.

week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to

:34:24.:34:27.

bully the British government, in those circumstances the British

:34:28.:34:29.

people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the

:34:30.:34:35.

Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician

:34:36.:34:39.

in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for

:34:40.:34:43.

your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters

:34:44.:34:47.

are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in

:34:48.:34:52.

the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.

:34:53.:34:56.

There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that

:34:57.:35:01.

once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit

:35:02.:35:06.

negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the

:35:07.:35:11.

focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of

:35:12.:35:15.

policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.

:35:16.:35:21.

The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap

:35:22.:35:25.

the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health

:35:26.:35:28.

service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with

:35:29.:35:33.

the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of

:35:34.:35:38.

what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces

:35:39.:35:41.

beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not

:35:42.:35:45.

Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that

:35:46.:35:51.

time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's

:35:52.:35:56.

fault. We have two become more professional than we have been

:35:57.:35:59.

recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or

:36:00.:36:05.

another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very

:36:06.:36:08.

rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other

:36:09.:36:13.

promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not

:36:14.:36:17.

until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not

:36:18.:36:21.

have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this

:36:22.:36:27.

current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most

:36:28.:36:33.

senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --

:36:34.:36:41.

no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I

:36:42.:36:44.

believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is

:36:45.:36:50.

shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital

:36:51.:37:00.

mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto

:37:01.:37:05.

launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but

:37:06.:37:12.

also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity

:37:13.:37:16.

bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies

:37:17.:37:25.

that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.

:37:26.:37:29.

Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory

:37:30.:37:33.

advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that

:37:34.:37:39.

Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?

:37:40.:37:43.

It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and

:37:44.:37:48.

have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.

:37:49.:37:54.

When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.

:37:55.:37:58.

Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.

:37:59.:38:02.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:03.:38:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:05.:38:07.

Coming up here in 20 minutes - we'll be talking about the French

:38:08.:38:18.

Hello, and welcome to your local part of the show,

:38:19.:38:20.

It's fair to say Conservatives right across the North East and Cumbria

:38:21.:38:26.

this weekend will be eagerly anticipating June 8th,

:38:27.:38:29.

after winning the Tees Valley Mayoral contest and inflicting heavy

:38:30.:38:33.

With Ukip's vote plummeting and the Liberal Democrats failing

:38:34.:38:38.

to make much headway, can anything now stop

:38:39.:38:42.

With me and no doubt with views on that: Andy Macdonald,

:38:43.:38:45.

John Stevenson - standing for the Conservatives in Carlisle.

:38:46.:38:50.

Also with me: Newcastle East Liberal Democrat candidate Wendy Taylor.

:38:51.:38:53.

And Chris Gallacher who will be Ukip's candidate in Redcar..

:38:54.:39:01.

John Stevenson, I have had many a conservative on here and berated

:39:02.:39:09.

them on the lack of progress with local elections. I can't do that,

:39:10.:39:14.

what led to your success? We have had great success across the piste

:39:15.:39:17.

in north-east and Cumbria but we have two remember this is local

:39:18.:39:22.

elections, often about local issues and there are national issues

:39:23.:39:24.

playing with local elections but more importantly there are local

:39:25.:39:28.

things and we mustn't be complacent going to the local election --

:39:29.:39:32.

general election. Why are we doing well quit we are offering a cohesive

:39:33.:39:37.

national programme, a strong leader, Teresa made plays very well on the

:39:38.:39:42.

doorstep contrasting to Jeremy Corbyn and people are looking for

:39:43.:39:46.

competence and safety and that is coming from the Conservatives. Andy

:39:47.:39:56.

Macdonald, something the Leyburn results -- the Labour results he

:39:57.:40:00.

were mixed. We aren't shirking from this. We have now a fantastic

:40:01.:40:05.

opportunity to lay out a programme before the British people to have a

:40:06.:40:08.

different way to societally structure ourselves, we aren't about

:40:09.:40:13.

dealing with the privileged and dodgy deals and whoever it may well

:40:14.:40:17.

be to lie people's pockets but it's looking after everybody investing in

:40:18.:40:21.

the health service, making sure people go away from zero hours

:40:22.:40:26.

contracts. Those are not the signs of a strong external economy, that

:40:27.:40:29.

is the sign of a community and economy in deep trouble and we have

:40:30.:40:33.

to make sure we correct that and we have the opportunity to get the

:40:34.:40:36.

message across over the next four weeks. Wendy Taylor. This is the

:40:37.:40:45.

beginning of the Lib Dem revival? We are up in the poll nationally, up

:40:46.:40:50.

from the last election, our membership has rocketed, we have a

:40:51.:40:55.

number of members the highest we've ever had, we have topped the poll in

:40:56.:40:58.

a large number of seats we are trying to get in the local action,

:40:59.:41:04.

such as Bath and others, and we have to be reasonably optimistic. We

:41:05.:41:09.

didn't do some well inside areas, but that wasn't everywhere, for

:41:10.:41:16.

example, Cornwall we did very well. We have reasons to be optimistic.

:41:17.:41:23.

Chris Gallacher, Ukip are fading in their force in a region they were

:41:24.:41:26.

stronger in in 2014. I'm not disputing that but having said that

:41:27.:41:32.

it is not as bad as our friends in the Labour Party. They want the odd

:41:33.:41:39.

council seat. But we were difficult. It was a difficult issue for us,

:41:40.:41:45.

Theresa May bigging the day perfectly from her point of view,

:41:46.:41:48.

she knew about local elections, and knew the national agenda would be

:41:49.:41:52.

superimposed on local agenda, and that is what been shown. We had come

:41:53.:41:58.

in Hartlepool, a turnout of 210 Conservatives in a ward that

:41:59.:42:01.

normally has 40, and that is why we lost that seat.

:42:02.:42:03.

Well the most high-profile contest in the region

:42:04.:42:05.

was to elect the so-called Metro Mayor for the Tees Valley.

:42:06.:42:08.

Labour's Sue Jeffrey was outright favourite but Stockton

:42:09.:42:10.

councillor Ben Houchen won it for the Conservatives

:42:11.:42:12.

after a fiercely-fought campaign - albeit on a turn out of only

:42:13.:42:15.

It bodes well for the party's ambitions to win target

:42:16.:42:19.

seats like Darlington, Middlesbrough South and perhaps

:42:20.:42:21.

even more than that at the General Election.

:42:22.:42:23.

The scene in the Tees Valley is a political earthquake.

:42:24.:42:26.

We're seeing a massive trend towards conservatives that's been

:42:27.:42:29.

happening over recent years now and we're starting to turn

:42:30.:42:32.

the Tees Valley blue, and in the coming general election

:42:33.:42:34.

we will be focusing all of our efforts, we will be looking at five

:42:35.:42:38.

target seats within the Tees Valley, something unheard of in the past,

:42:39.:42:42.

and something that I personally will be fighting for and am

:42:43.:42:47.

Ben Houchen. Andy Macdonald, this particular result was a disaster for

:42:48.:42:58.

you. And everywhere you control four out of five councils. It goes to a

:42:59.:43:06.

conservative. Do remember, we topped the poll in three of the five

:43:07.:43:09.

boroughs at the first outing so that can't be in order. That said we

:43:10.:43:12.

still have those barriers under Labour controlled, so this chap has

:43:13.:43:16.

come along, don't know whether he wants the job in any event, but his

:43:17.:43:20.

promises are to buy an airport that isn't for sale and his second

:43:21.:43:25.

manifesto commitment is... You take on his points to the campaign. The

:43:26.:43:32.

fact is he one. It was a very low turnout and people aren't in love

:43:33.:43:35.

with the concept with Metro males. That is a good thing,

:43:36.:43:38.

notwithstanding the result. It is excellent we have powers devolved to

:43:39.:43:42.

the Tees Valley so we can push our wheat and we can do it. -- pull our

:43:43.:43:50.

weight. He is there for three years, he can occupy it for 36 months and

:43:51.:43:54.

then we will take it off him. Do you accept that on this result is that

:43:55.:43:58.

the more widely, politicians on the night am sure dead, places like

:43:59.:44:03.

Darlington and Ms Aruba south are likely to spread further than that.

:44:04.:44:08.

We are talking about Alex chinaman in Stockton Heath. -- Alex

:44:09.:44:15.

Cunningham. We have the opportunity to show the British people to do

:44:16.:44:24.

this better. You must be panicking in those seats? Candidates are

:44:25.:44:28.

infused by the wealth of resources and absolute enthusiasm for tens and

:44:29.:44:30.

tens of Labour supporters coming out. We have fantastic campaigning

:44:31.:44:35.

this is the opportunity of a this is the opportunity of a

:44:36.:44:39.

lifetime for the country to be in a better direction and it is now.

:44:40.:44:42.

Chris Gallacher, you trailed in a poor fourth of your party, you would

:44:43.:44:47.

have been pushing the Labour rather have been pushing the Labour rather

:44:48.:44:51.

than a Conservatives a few years ago? We put as much effort in as we

:44:52.:45:01.

want to. We didn't put a great deal in however, and not agreeing with

:45:02.:45:05.

the whole concept of it. Hence the low turnout. Nobody wanted this

:45:06.:45:10.

mayor. Why bother standing? The candidate was saying how the

:45:11.:45:18.

election should have got rid of the post, the referendum. That was his

:45:19.:45:24.

agenda, and that is what he went on. Everyone said, but we now have a

:45:25.:45:29.

Conservative, identifying the real problem of Tayside, albeit in a

:45:30.:45:35.

spurious way. The airport is fundamental to the growth of the

:45:36.:45:37.

that is the point that people voted that is the point that people voted

:45:38.:45:41.

for and that is what they are going to get. John Stevenson, Tees Valley

:45:42.:45:46.

mayoral election. A bit of a one-off, wasn't it but at Ben Hatch

:45:47.:45:50.

and's pledge on the airport may well have won it but it is impossible to

:45:51.:45:53.

read the ruins. First of all I am read the ruins. First of all I am

:45:54.:46:00.

delighted to hear of his support for the concept, I think it is a

:46:01.:46:03.

positive thing and a good thing. Our perspective. We were delighted to

:46:04.:46:09.

win there, demonstrates Conservatives can win anywhere in

:46:10.:46:13.

this country, we aren't the party of the north in the past, but that has

:46:14.:46:16.

changed. I want to see these mayors spread across the north of England,

:46:17.:46:22.

and importantly I want to see Conservatives everywhere. Where are

:46:23.:46:25.

you going to buy the airport from then? How's that going to come into

:46:26.:46:31.

Valley ownership? It is just a deceit. It is an interesting... It's

:46:32.:46:44.

not for sale. 21% turnout doesn't suggest public enthusiasm for this

:46:45.:46:49.

role, it? All politicians have been disappointed by the turnout, it was

:46:50.:46:53.

much lower than we've had hoped, but mayors have become a familiar part

:46:54.:46:55.

establishment and I think people establishment and I think people

:46:56.:46:58.

will support them, and in local government generally we do see 30,

:46:59.:47:04.

35, 40% turnout. We want higher and I fully except it is important we

:47:05.:47:10.

get higher turnout. Lib Dems were third, was there anything for you at

:47:11.:47:14.

competition where we are fighting to competition where we are fighting to

:47:15.:47:22.

close candidates, we were squeezed, but there is no reason why we should

:47:23.:47:28.

not get heart from the results, 12%. We know that Theresa May is on the

:47:29.:47:31.

verge of getting a large majority but we had to persuade Labour voters

:47:32.:47:35.

in Berwick and Redcar that we are the challenges, we have held the

:47:36.:47:39.

seat before, we know how to do it and... You are supposed to be part

:47:40.:47:47.

of a progressive alliance. You are taking votes away from Labour. We

:47:48.:47:51.

believe we can be an effective opposition which the Labour Party

:47:52.:47:55.

aren't at the moment. You are the best chance of getting Tories into

:47:56.:48:01.

power! That is exactly what happened in Tees Valley, you know it. The

:48:02.:48:05.

reason Tories have done well is because they have begun the

:48:06.:48:10.

blue-collar party. They have taken almost all the Ukip votes and that

:48:11.:48:13.

is obviously a worry for both Labour and the Liberal Democrats but think

:48:14.:48:18.

we can we make good progress, a chance of regaining Redcar, and

:48:19.:48:20.

Berwick, and that is what we are fighting to do. We have fought about

:48:21.:48:29.

this airport Pledge but will cancel leaders back Ben Houchen, there are

:48:30.:48:32.

five sitting alongside him on Labour, they could frustrate him. If

:48:33.:48:40.

they can tell me how he can get them. It is a hollow claim, you

:48:41.:48:44.

can't do it. We asked the question on the floor of the House of Commons

:48:45.:48:47.

and the secretary of state asked him is this Tory policy, and he said

:48:48.:48:53.

absolutely and utterly not and you have a Tory candidate deceiving the

:48:54.:48:57.

public and coming along and deceiving them public. I would put

:48:58.:49:02.

millions on it, it's never going to happen. Labour members on the board,

:49:03.:49:09.

it is a real holding place... We aren't going to discuss this

:49:10.:49:10.

airport. Well, let's take a closer look now

:49:11.:49:12.

at the local election results, and right across the region

:49:13.:49:15.

the Tories made big gains, even in the previously rock solid

:49:16.:49:18.

Labour territory of County Durham In Cumbria the Conservative took 12

:49:19.:49:20.

seats - including one held by their Copeland General Election

:49:21.:49:24.

candidate Gillian Troughton. While in Northumberland

:49:25.:49:26.

there was an 11 per cent swing from Labour to Conservative,

:49:27.:49:29.

with the Tories only just Conservatives said that reflected

:49:30.:49:31.

deep dissatisfaction among Labour I think there is a very definite

:49:32.:49:34.

message here which is very definitely they don't like

:49:35.:49:40.

Northumberland county council and the way it's run by

:49:41.:49:42.

the Labour Party, but I cannot stress enough Jeremy

:49:43.:49:44.

Corbyn is toxic on the doorstep. There was some relief for Labour

:49:45.:49:50.

in a strong performance in North Tyneside where the mayor

:49:51.:49:52.

Norma Redfearn was re-elected and increased her majority

:49:53.:49:55.

with more than half the vote. But the scale of the losses

:49:56.:50:01.

across the region - just four weeks before

:50:02.:50:04.

the General Election - Those loyal to Jeremy Corbyn blamed

:50:05.:50:06.

party divisions and a failure by MPs I think the Labour Party's been

:50:07.:50:10.

split for a while now and that's been the trouble,

:50:11.:50:15.

and people don't like to and I think MPs in Westminster have

:50:16.:50:17.

got a lot to answer for as well. Because they've never chip backed

:50:18.:50:22.

Jeremy Corbyn, they should have backed him, if they had have backed

:50:23.:50:24.

him and the ten point plan he had, it would have been

:50:25.:50:28.

a different results today. Well Labour disappointment

:50:29.:50:32.

was matched by Ukip and the Liberal Democrats with both

:50:33.:50:34.

parties failing to make The Lib Dems lost seats

:50:35.:50:36.

in Northumberland - while Ukip in Cumbria denied

:50:37.:50:39.

the party was in a state I think this has been a poor turnout

:50:40.:50:42.

which hasn't helped. I think with the general

:50:43.:50:45.

election close on the heels of it is well means that

:50:46.:50:47.

people are voting tactically, I think, really, so I think there's

:50:48.:50:50.

still lots to play for in the general election and we just

:50:51.:50:53.

going to have to put everything into that and just go

:50:54.:50:56.

for it, really. Andy Macdonald, let's talk about

:50:57.:51:10.

Durham for a minute. There was no pledge made about airports there.

:51:11.:51:14.

Solid Labour seats, solid Labour areas which were lost.

:51:15.:51:19.

Chester-le-Street, Sedgefield Stephen, what is happening. There

:51:20.:51:28.

was with something to play for and the resource could be a difference

:51:29.:51:34.

between local and general elections. We have a leader he vilified

:51:35.:51:38.

constantly and when a man comes along who wants to treat people like

:51:39.:51:45.

they should be treated, he has been vilified. He has been vilified by

:51:46.:51:50.

members of your own party as well. 100 cent of our candidates should be

:51:51.:51:53.

behind the programme that we will set out. We are not a... We aren't a

:51:54.:52:01.

presidential system but a parliamentary democracy. A lot of

:52:02.:52:07.

those seats it could have been anyone but Labour, it was the

:52:08.:52:10.

independence, the north-east party, the Liberal Democrats... Anyone but

:52:11.:52:17.

Labour, you are reading from Liberal Democrat leaflets. We have to see

:52:18.:52:25.

Norma Redfearn returned as mayor. We have great successes in Manchester

:52:26.:52:28.

and liveable across the north of England and Wales was not the

:52:29.:52:31.

cataclysmic think that many expected apparently. Wendy Taylor,

:52:32.:52:38.

Northumberland, your party lost eight councils including in the

:52:39.:52:42.

Berwick area you say you are targeting. They are very much local

:52:43.:52:48.

issues. The position in county hall is quite difficult and we did well

:52:49.:52:52.

in Durham, we gained five seats in Durham, on all the parish council

:52:53.:52:57.

seat in Durham, the results were neutral across the area. Even in

:52:58.:53:07.

targeted seats. We are the only party to say that if you want to

:53:08.:53:11.

have better services we are going to have to pay more tax. We are looking

:53:12.:53:14.

at other things from Brett said, and I think in this election and others

:53:15.:53:21.

have been focusing only on that. Tim Farron has been not really talking

:53:22.:53:27.

about it, you think that will persuade enough people to come over

:53:28.:53:31.

to you? I think it is really early days, and thank that our message has

:53:32.:53:37.

been built on. What we have to stop is the landslide victory for the

:53:38.:53:41.

Tories. Theresia Mae is acting as though she wants a coronation rather

:53:42.:53:46.

than election, not speaking to the public, invited people only at

:53:47.:53:49.

meetings, refusing to do a TV debate. We have to say that the

:53:50.:53:54.

landslide for the Tories will not be the right thing. We have excellent

:53:55.:53:59.

policies on health, climate change, things that should be very popular

:54:00.:54:05.

at a election. No councils the is at the local elections. Label are

:54:06.:54:11.

hanging on in Hartlepool. Is it the beginning of the end? Your chairman

:54:12.:54:14.

has as they do the Conservatives, and probably Ukip should just do

:54:15.:54:17.

that. The media have been writing the bedroom for Ukip since the

:54:18.:54:23.

referendum. We are still here, and people need to remember that we are

:54:24.:54:28.

the party that are 100% behind exit, we brought it on to the table, we

:54:29.:54:33.

forced the issue and we won the day. That cuts no ice at the moment. This

:54:34.:54:41.

is rapidly becoming a Brexit referendum against things to Theresa

:54:42.:54:46.

May. The agenda is being pushed and policy has been buried under Brexit.

:54:47.:54:52.

But that is what you wanted? That is the point, she doesn't want to do

:54:53.:54:58.

that, but it is a conversion of all parties right now who were pro the

:54:59.:55:06.

EU, and there was only one party who fought for that in the streets. Can

:55:07.:55:11.

you win seats in the north east in the parliamentary election? Yes.

:55:12.:55:20.

Where? Redcar. Which is where you're standing? Yes. To conservatives. In

:55:21.:55:28.

Cumbria you didn't really gain anywhere. We didn't expect to do. I

:55:29.:55:37.

think we are doing well, well placed for the 8th of June, I have always

:55:38.:55:44.

represented a marginal seat and I've write it in that way and always

:55:45.:55:47.

continue to do so. I genuinely think that the people of the

:55:48.:55:48.

receptive to us and our message. Is receptive to us and our message. Is

:55:49.:55:55.

your party now looking seriously at the north? Previously they had not

:55:56.:56:03.

put much effort in there. We are going to try to fight all seats,

:56:04.:56:05.

candidates everywhere, and put candidates everywhere, and put

:56:06.:56:09.

resources into places where we think the best possibilities are. Cumbria

:56:10.:56:12.

is always sifting towards the Conservatives, it did in 2010, we

:56:13.:56:17.

want Copeland recently, so we have the chance to take the fight to

:56:18.:56:20.

Labour, but we aren't complacent and we had persuade people. Sedgefield.

:56:21.:56:27.

Tony Blair's seat. Are you targeting that? I am concentrating on Cumbria.

:56:28.:56:38.

Seats of a 6000, even 10,000 majority of a vulnerable? You would

:56:39.:56:42.

have to ask Labour. We want to maximise the boat ride across the

:56:43.:56:47.

country, we have a strong leader and this country is wedged it for

:56:48.:56:54.

Conservative rule. With Sedgefield at risk, Harry had meetings since

:56:55.:56:58.

Friday about how to respond to this in the regional Labour Party? We

:56:59.:57:01.

fight tooth and sell for every single vote in every constituency.

:57:02.:57:05.

We are a national party, and not in the business of saying that we are

:57:06.:57:12.

targeting places. You know full well that more resources go into likely

:57:13.:57:17.

seats. We are going to fight for every seat in the north of England.

:57:18.:57:20.

There is a strong candidate in each and every one of them and we are

:57:21.:57:23.

going for every vote, and to think otherwise, is ridiculous was up the

:57:24.:57:29.

British public will decide, we went to sit and say which seats are going

:57:30.:57:33.

which way can we have an election and it is therefore people to do

:57:34.:57:38.

that. They are now the third party in Scotland. This is a fundamental

:57:39.:57:43.

problem. You said you are a national party and I'm not convinced. We are

:57:44.:57:48.

660,000 people in our party, the biggest political union. We are the

:57:49.:58:00.

biggest movement in Europe. I have spoken to Labour candidates, you

:58:01.:58:03.

have two, some campaigning on the basis that say, look, forgets Jeremy

:58:04.:58:10.

Corbyn, he's not and we promised because they know that's the only

:58:11.:58:15.

way they can hope to win. We aren't absolutely not going to give in to

:58:16.:58:19.

the vilification and condemnation and personal abuse of a single man.

:58:20.:58:26.

A single nasty word has never been said by that man, a man of integrity

:58:27.:58:34.

and deep principle. Yours BOOING Policies are going to be laid

:58:35.:58:37.

cleared for the north, and they will be reminded of the values of this

:58:38.:58:48.

man. You know that there are candidates who say that look at my

:58:49.:58:51.

local record as an MP, not about the national policies. Why would they

:58:52.:58:57.

not stand proudly behind their record as an excellent MP? Of course

:58:58.:59:03.

they will based on that. This is what a Labour government will

:59:04.:59:07.

deliver to our country, investing in education... I know he wants to move

:59:08.:59:11.

on but you never talk about the policies of education, health,

:59:12.:59:16.

prosperity, zero hours contracts, these are the things that the Labour

:59:17.:59:21.

Party will champion. Chris Gallacher, we still have no idea who

:59:22.:59:27.

your candidate is, your top target, no list of candidates from any other

:59:28.:59:30.

seats in a URL is only Redcar, the regional chairman goes to the

:59:31.:59:34.

Tories, it is chaos. I don't think so. We have 24 seats already

:59:35.:59:40.

nominated with candidates not 29. That's pretty good. Hartlepool is

:59:41.:59:45.

your top seat, and as far as I can see it as a round about selection. I

:59:46.:59:52.

am talking about tomorrow. I thought it was Wednesday. Given Thursday

:59:53.:59:57.

wasn't great, what will spark a Liberal Democrat revival? It will be

:59:58.:00:01.

our policies, and we are the policy that is going to be the effective

:00:02.:00:07.

opposition. We certainly need that, the Brexit negotiations are going

:00:08.:00:11.

well we are told we have a strong leader, but so was Margaret Thatcher

:00:12.:00:16.

and look what she did to the north. How will you re-wind power? We

:00:17.:00:24.

concentrate on 's domestic policies and how we can actually improve

:00:25.:00:27.

daily lives. We need to look at what the Tories are doing, delivering

:00:28.:00:32.

their tax breaks for their friends and the rich. It is in their DNA and

:00:33.:00:39.

they are not about working people. Is this a strong and stable

:00:40.:00:45.

government? I think it is the case we have a strong leader and not a

:00:46.:00:53.

toxic person. This is standard story nonsense. We have to finish.

:00:54.:00:57.

And that's it from us after a remarkable week in politics.

:00:58.:00:59.

If nothing else we've learned what a "straw poll" is!

:01:00.:01:02.

Here's the moment the Conservatives were denied an outright

:01:03.:01:04.

majority in Northumberland - by the choosing of straws -

:01:05.:01:06.

obtained from the canteen at Hexham leisure centre.

:01:07.:01:08.

I did it! Yay!

:01:09.:01:10.

We're back same time, same place next Sunday.

:01:11.:01:12.

housing associations and investment, but we have run out of time, thank

:01:13.:01:15.

you. Andrew. Four weeks to go until polling day

:01:16.:01:30.

on the 8th of June, what will the party strategies be for the

:01:31.:01:33.

remaining four weeks? Let's begin with the Conservatives. Do they just

:01:34.:01:40.

try to continue to play it safe for four weeks? Yes, with this important

:01:41.:01:44.

qualification. Theresa May Corp this election to get her own personal

:01:45.:01:48.

mandate partly, partly because she thought she would win big but to get

:01:49.:01:52.

her own personal mandate. Therefore, she needs to define it. In her own

:01:53.:01:58.

interests and to do with accountability to the country. So

:01:59.:02:02.

clearly, they will not take risks when they are so far ahead in the

:02:03.:02:07.

polls. What they do say in the manifesto matters in

:02:08.:02:09.

terms of the space that she has in the coming years to define her

:02:10.:02:16.

leadership against David Cameron 's. She is a free figure, partly on the

:02:17.:02:21.

basis of what she says as to how big she wins. They cannot just play it

:02:22.:02:31.

safe and repeat their mantra of strong and stable leadership, if she

:02:32.:02:36.

is going to claim her own mandate, they need the top policy? Yes, and

:02:37.:02:41.

what is unusual about this is that the manifesto matters far more

:02:42.:02:44.

because of what they need to do with it afterwards, than in terms of

:02:45.:02:47.

whether it is going to win anybody over now. Clearly, the strategy is

:02:48.:02:53.

yes, we do have two layout out a few things, there are interesting

:02:54.:02:57.

debates as to whether, for example, they will still commit to this

:02:58.:03:00.

ambition of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, we do not

:03:01.:03:04.

know the answer yet. It is a question on whether she is setting

:03:05.:03:07.

herself up for difficulties later on. It will be a short manifesto, I

:03:08.:03:15.

would venture to guess? It is in her interests to be as noncommittal as

:03:16.:03:19.

possible, that argues for a short manifesto but what does strike me

:03:20.:03:23.

about the Conservative campaign, aside from the ambiguity on policy,

:03:24.:03:28.

is how personal it is. I think Theresa May, in her most recent

:03:29.:03:33.

speech, referred to "My local candidates", rather than

:03:34.:03:36.

Parliamentary candidates, very much framing it as a presidential

:03:37.:03:43.

candidate in France or the USA. Not a rational on her part. Everything I

:03:44.:03:47.

hear from the MPs on the ground and the focus groups being done by the

:03:48.:03:52.

parties, is that a big chunk of the population personally identify with

:03:53.:03:56.

her. If you can wrap up Middle England into a physical object and

:03:57.:03:59.

embody it in a person, it would be her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's

:04:00.:04:05.

unpopularity accounts for a big slice of her popularity, she has

:04:06.:04:08.

done a good job of bonding with the public. We never saw that coming!

:04:09.:04:12.

But you may well be right. That is happening now. Labour say it wants

:04:13.:04:16.

the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell to play a more prominent role in the

:04:17.:04:21.

Labour campaign, he was on The Andrew Marr Show this morning and he

:04:22.:04:24.

was asked if he was a Marxist, he denied that he was. It surprised me

:04:25.:04:29.

as I had seen tape from before saying that he was proud of it.

:04:30.:04:37.

Let's look now and then. Are you a Marxist? I believe that there is a

:04:38.:04:42.

lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe that there is a lot to learn from

:04:43.:04:46.

reading capital, that is recommended not only by me but measuring

:04:47.:04:49.

economists as well. I also believe that in the long tradition of the

:04:50.:04:57.

Labour Party... We need to demand systemic change. I am a Marxist.

:04:58.:05:01.

This is a classic crisis of the economy. A capitalist crisis. I've

:05:02.:05:06.

been waiting for this for a generation! That was from about four

:05:07.:05:13.

years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist, yes, I am a Marxist... I've been

:05:14.:05:17.

waiting for the Marxist revolution my whole life... Does this kind of

:05:18.:05:21.

thing matter? Yes, but in fairness, I think he is a really good

:05:22.:05:27.

interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have untested figures in a national

:05:28.:05:30.

campaign. None have ever been exposed at any level to a national

:05:31.:05:36.

media campaign that they are about to experience. He is the best

:05:37.:05:41.

interviewee. In fairness to him, when he gave that clip four years

:05:42.:05:46.

ago, I bet he never dream that he would be in a senior front bench

:05:47.:05:49.

position. But the background is clear. They are of the left, and I

:05:50.:05:54.

think they would all have described it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done,

:05:55.:06:01.

he is close to being like Tony Benn. There are about four Labour campaign

:06:02.:06:05.

is being fought in this election. Their campaign, the old Shadow

:06:06.:06:08.

Cabinet, campaigning in constituencies, but not identifying

:06:09.:06:13.

with that campaign. There is the former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is

:06:14.:06:20.

it damaging? I think so, if they could be damaged any further, I

:06:21.:06:23.

could see all of the Labour MPs with their heads in their hands. What I

:06:24.:06:27.

am hearing from Labour MPs is that there is not one of them who do not

:06:28.:06:31.

feel that they have a horrendous battle on their hands. These will be

:06:32.:06:36.

very individual local campaigns, where local MPs are winning despite

:06:37.:06:40.

the party leadership and not because of it. Already, talk is turning to

:06:41.:06:45.

what happens next. Is there anyway that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a

:06:46.:06:49.

horrendous set of general election results as many anticipate, may stay

:06:50.:06:55.

on all the same? It is not clear that even if the polls are right,

:06:56.:07:01.

that Mr Corbyn will go? John McDonnell implied it might not be

:07:02.:07:06.

the case but previously, he said it would be. What do you make of

:07:07.:07:10.

reports that the Labour strategy is not, I cannot quite believe I am

:07:11.:07:15.

saying this, not to win seats but maximise a share of the vote. If

:07:16.:07:20.

they do better than Ed Miliband with 30.5% of the vote, they believe they

:07:21.:07:24.

live to fight another day? Yes, it reminded me of Tony Benn's speech

:07:25.:07:29.

after the 1983 election where they said as bad as the Parliamentary

:07:30.:07:33.

defeat was there were 8 million votes for socialism. A big section

:07:34.:07:37.

of public opinion voted for that manifesto. I wonder whether that is

:07:38.:07:45.

Corbyn's supporters best chance of holding onto power. Whether they can

:07:46.:07:50.

say that those votes are a platform on which we can build. That said,

:07:51.:07:55.

even moderate Labour MPs and desperate for a quick leadership

:07:56.:07:59.

contest. I hear a lot of them say that they would like to leave it for

:08:00.:08:03.

one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as an acting Labour leader. He would

:08:04.:08:07.

still have a mandate. Give the top party a chance to regroup and get

:08:08.:08:11.

rid of some of its problems and decide where it stands on policy.

:08:12.:08:14.

Most importantly, for potential candidates to show what they are

:08:15.:08:18.

made of, rather than lurching straight into an Yvette Cooper

:08:19.:08:24.

Coronation. 30 seconds on the Liberal Democrats, their strategy

:08:25.:08:31.

was to mop up the Remain vote. Uncertain about the Brexit party in

:08:32.:08:39.

demise. Ukip. The remain as have a dilemma, the little Democrats are

:08:40.:08:41.

not a strong enough vessel with 89 MPs to risk all ongoing for them --

:08:42.:08:48.

the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not know where they stand on Brexit.

:08:49.:08:53.

There is not a robust alternative vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit

:08:54.:09:02.

Conservative Party. At the moment. Four weeks to go, but not for

:09:03.:09:04.

France... France has been voting since early

:09:05.:09:06.

this morning, and we should get a first estimate of who will be

:09:07.:09:09.

the country's next President Just to warn you there are some

:09:10.:09:12.

flashing images coming up. The choice in France

:09:13.:09:16.

is between a centre-left liberal reformer Emmanuel Macron

:09:17.:09:18.

and a right-wing nationalist Marine Le Pen - both have been

:09:19.:09:20.

casting their votes this morning. The two candidates topped

:09:21.:09:22.

a field of 11 presidential hopefuls in the first

:09:23.:09:25.

round of elections last month. The campaign has been marked

:09:26.:09:27.

by its unpredictability, and in a final twist on Friday

:09:28.:09:29.

evening, just before campaigning officially ended,

:09:30.:09:35.

Mr Macron's En Marche! group said it had been the victim

:09:36.:09:37.

of a "massive" hack, with a trove of documents

:09:38.:09:43.

released online. The Macron team said real documents

:09:44.:09:45.

were mixed up with fake ones, and electoral authorities warned

:09:46.:09:48.

media and the public that spreading details of the leaks would breach

:09:49.:09:50.

strict election rules. I'm joined now from

:09:51.:10:01.

Paris by the journalist As I left Paris recently, everybody

:10:02.:10:14.

told me that there was the consensus that Mr Macron would win, and win

:10:15.:10:17.

pretty comfortable you. Is there any reason to doubt that? -- pretty

:10:18.:10:23.

comfortably. I don't think so, there have been so many people left and

:10:24.:10:28.

right, former candidates who have decided that it was more important

:10:29.:10:33.

to vote for Macron, even if it was agreed with him, then run the risk

:10:34.:10:36.

of having Marine Le Pen as president. I think the spread is now

:10:37.:10:44.

20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le Pen. So outside of the margin of

:10:45.:10:47.

error that it would take something huge for this to be observed. If the

:10:48.:10:53.

polls are right and Mr Macron wins, he has to put together a government,

:10:54.:11:01.

and in May there is a Coronation, then he faces parliamentary

:11:02.:11:06.

elections in June and could face a fractured parliament where he does

:11:07.:11:10.

not have a clear majority for his reforms. He could then faced

:11:11.:11:14.

difficulties in getting his programme through? I think that

:11:15.:11:19.

right now, with how things are looking, considering you have one

:11:20.:11:25.

half of the Republican party, the Conservative Party, they are making

:11:26.:11:30.

clear sides, not only that they want to support Macron but are supporting

:11:31.:11:34.

him actively. It means looking at the equivalent of the German party,

:11:35.:11:39.

the great coalition. Depending on how many seats established parties

:11:40.:11:44.

keep in the house committee may very well have a Republican Prime

:11:45.:11:53.

Minister, rather than having an adversarial MP, he may have someone

:11:54.:12:03.

who is relatively unknown outside of France, and a young woman. Contended

:12:04.:12:10.

that lost the Parez mayorship three years ago. She is a scientist and

:12:11.:12:16.

has been secretary of state. She would be an interesting coalition

:12:17.:12:21.

Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le Pen, if she goes down to defeat a

:12:22.:12:27.

night, does she have the stomach and ambition, and the energy, to try it

:12:28.:12:34.

all again in 2022? She has all of that. The question is, would they

:12:35.:12:39.

let her? How badly would she lose? Her niece, now 27, a hard-working

:12:40.:12:44.

and steady person, unlike Marine Le Pen, who flunked her do paid --

:12:45.:12:52.

debate, her niece may decide that 2022 is her turn. Yet another Le

:12:53.:13:00.

Pen! All right, we will see. Just five years to wait, but only a few

:13:01.:13:04.

hours until the results of the election tonight.

:13:05.:13:06.

And we will get the exit polls here on the BBC. Given the exit polls

:13:07.:13:11.

will give as a pretty fair indication of what the result is

:13:12.:13:15.

going to be tonight. That will be on BBC news. That's all for today.

:13:16.:13:19.

The Daily Politics will cover every turn of this election campaign,

:13:20.:13:22.

And we're back here on BBC One at our usual time Next Sunday.

:13:23.:13:26.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:27.:13:28.

Our crack team of experts use pioneering research

:13:29.:14:17.

..to how to help your pet lose weight.

:14:18.:14:20.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss are joined by Labour's shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon and Ukip's Neil Hamilton to discuss the local election results. On the political panel are Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards and Janan Ganesh.


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