29/09/2013 Sunday Politics North West

do with the lack of talent, it is Sunday Politics. David Cameron

house-buyers with deposits. Is he merely stoking a new house price

bubble? As Tory activist 's gather in Manchester, we will have the

results of our exclusive survey in Manchester, we will have the

Conservative councillors. I will be William Hague. And Ed Miliband made

headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months after

headlines with his pledge to freeze the next election. But does the

headlines with his pledge to freeze policy really stack up? Shadow

And in the North West, I'll be speaking live to the Chancellor

George Osborne here in Manchester. And the Prime Minister tells me

Underground should be made illegal, something the Prime Minister doesn't

With me are a trio of top political commentators. All three will be

tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the

show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. cases just their thought through the

Conservative Party conference gets afternoon. We have already been

bombarded with a series of policy announcements, a tax break for

married couples of up to £200 per year, more money on life extending

cancer treatments and, last night, the news that the second stage of

the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme brought forward from the start of

next year. David Cameron says it is all about helping hard-working

people. Right now, you can't get, 95% mortgage. That means a typical

family with two people earning 20,000, 25,000, they are being

asked, to buy an average house, 20,000, 25,000, they are being

mortgage payment, but they can't get the mortgage. They can't buy their

flat or house. As Prime Minister, I'm not going to stand back while

people's aspirations to get on the housing ladder, to own their own

flat or home, is being trashed. housing ladder, to own their own

is why we need to act. A predictable attempt by party leadership to

kick-start the conference with eye-catching policies. The polls

show a big bounce for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party, with decent

numbers for UKIP. What do party councillors as they travel to their

For the Conservatives this weekend, conference, and as a scene setter we

asked ComRes to survey councillors are Finland and Wales. Councillors

asked ComRes to survey councillors like Tom, packing for conference at

home in Wellingborough. Immigration is an issue for him. He thinks there

are pros and cons. But we found is an issue for him. He thinks there

immigration has had a negative reflects into this wider issue of

our relationship with Europe. People possible influx of ovarian and

Romania emigrants. Obviously the issue of Europe is very big. --

Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby are worried about the rise of the UK

Independence Party. In our survey, nearly a quarter of Conservative

councillors thought that their party should make a pact with UKIP. The

concern is, yes, will they take If that happens, maybe we don't

concern is, yes, will they take back in. Maybe a partnership is

concern is, yes, will they take way to go. It depends what they

concern is, yes, will they take talking about them. A pact? Depends

what they say, anything is possible. What would you like to see? Ideally,

from my point of view, a national pact. David Cameron arrived in

Manchester last night. Around the same time as these activists from

London. I broke the news to them that in our survey just 26% of Tory

councillors think that the prime ministers in touch with the lives of

ordinary people. The same at all Conservatives, you don't judge

people by their background. It's not where they come from, it is where

they are going to. It is not a where they come from, it is where

problem that he is a bit on the where they come from, it is where

side? Cull you might describe him like that, I would not use those

words. Explain your T-shirt, it like that, I would not use those

phrase that a senior Cameron person is alleged to have used about you?

It is a humorous way of letting is alleged to have used about you?

party now that we are here to say important. We are not going away any

time soon. A sentiment you will important. We are not going away any

a lot at this conference, because just 22% of councillors in our

survey said that David Cameron was any good at listening to the people

that work hard for his party. That was Adam. Joining me now from the

Conservative Party conference in William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday

Politics. Good morning. Over one in five Tory councillors in our survey

support a pact with UKIP at the five Tory councillors in our survey

election. Why do you think that five Tory councillors in our survey

If it is one in five, it means a large majority did not want a pact

with UKIP at the next election. large majority did not want a pact

have noticed that UKIP, in local elections, has been receiving votes,

some of which would otherwise have been for the Conservatives. I think

we have to make sure that people election they are choosing between a

Conservative and Labour Government, as David Cameron as Prime Minister

or Ed Miliband. If people want to get a referendum on Europe, the

or Ed Miliband. If people want to way to do that is to have David

Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a

general election is different from the local government perspective. It

is pretty unusual, some might say unprecedented, for a large chunk of

one of the big parties in this country to want to go into coalition

one of the big parties in this with a smaller party before an

happened? Looking at your survey, three times as many didn't want

happened? Looking at your survey, with statistics, you can highlight

it whichever way around you want to. The point is, we are not having

pacts with other parties, electoral pacts with other parties. You rule

it out? That is not going to happen. What we do want is to have a pact

it out? That is not going to happen. with the voters, if you like, as we

have often done in the Conservative Party. We have won over the voters

of other parties to support our policies and Prime Minister. That is

important with those people that say important with those people that say

they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour

government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend,

government in the exact opposite of Conservative and decide to vote

government in the exact opposite of UKIP instead in a general election.

That could help to produce a Labour government. The chairman of the

That could help to produce a Labour committee, the elected voice of

Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had

once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.

Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European

elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,

European treaties the concept of ever closer union, a concept that in

believed in. We would like that ever closer union, a concept that in

consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the

examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly

over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general

election, if you are saying, let have the exact list of anything

election, if you are saying, let negotiate, that is difficult because

there will be a negotiation of a new deal in Europe if David Cameron

there will be a negotiation of a new election. To some extent, that has

to be negotiated. Only 11% of your own councillors feel that people in

their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.

is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The

important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What

George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

new jobs in the private sector, renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them.

for hard-working people, by reducing Help To Buy scheme that we are

highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,

I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed

Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do

about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people

on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.

Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going

to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened

now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not

happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of

Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened

under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in

opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big

change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is,

change in oil prices then the policy would dry up some of the investment

in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise.

in the energy industry. I don't a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next government, -- last government,

tax bills doubling in the next not very credible. Why is George

Osborne going against the European Well, we don't want to see the

European treaties used in a way Well, we don't want to see the

they should not be used. It's not necessarily over this particular

issue. It is over the power that the European Union has over our lives

and over this country. Can the bankers look after themselves? We

should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have

never signed up to such matters things in our own country. We have

European institutions. If you allow one thing that wasn't meant to be

decided to be decided, you find one thing that wasn't meant to be

there are another ten or 20 things that affect many other people. We

are very vigilant about what we that affect many other people. We

competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was

meant to have. That is one of the referendum, do want a new deal in

Europe. That is what we intend to institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

the LIBOR rates. The founder of institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it

back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own

Which he made out of ICAP. As people have to other parties, people are

free to do that and they should have to other parties, people are

free to do that. I am not aware have to other parties, people are

any plan for that to be repaid. Because you can't afford to. Let's

recap this. We have seen Tory MPs parrot propaganda lines from the

energy companies this week. We have the Chancellor going to court to

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. We have a top Tory donor the centre

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. of yet another city scandal. Ed

Miliband is right when he says you lot are on the side of the vested

interests so the rich and powerful, isn't he? Well, again, look at the

record. I just did! 1.4 million extra jobs in the private sector, 25

million people with a tax cut, a Help To Buy scheme which is going to

help so many people, particularly young people have the house that

future. Council tax bills held down, welfare reform so that it pays to

work. Actually, this is a government achieving things for hard-working

While President Laugharne he's talking about peace, the Iranians

weapons programme. -- is talking. It would be hard to say from week

to week whether it is speeding up continuing with it. That is why

to week whether it is speeding up say the new message - the new words

- from Iranian leadership are very welcome. I said that to the Foreign

Minister in New York over the last few days but it is the actions that

will count. At the moment, the nuclear programme continues. We

negotiations on that and that will be a very important test as to

whether actions will match the words. When will we know it if we

are being strung along? He has strung as a long in the past as

are being strung along? He has nuclear weapons negotiator. When

will we know if he is not just doing that again? Over the next

will we know if he is not just weeks, it will be a very important

time. He has said there should be more transparency over the Iranian

transparent in many regards at the moment. The atomic agency is asking

for information that is not being given. One test is, in the coming

information? The information that the international of authority is

asking for about their nuclear programme. We will be able to form

a view of this in the coming weeks or months. It is important we test

their new willingness to talk to us important to find out whether they

asking, is the nuclear programme really continuing? Are they really

negotiations and offer something Speaking of being strung along,

what sanctions would President Assad face if, in six months - the

Year, Syria still has a chemical weapons arsenal. In the resolution

we voted through the UN Security Council on Friday night, is the

Council will take measures under Chapter seven of the UN Charter

Council will take measures under the event of non-compliance. Does

that allow full force? I did not catch that. Does that allow for

Security Council resolution about Iraq, which most people concluded

in not allow full force. It does not specify that. It talks about

terms seven of the charter. That is a message of the whole UN Security

Council that there will be measures - there will be consequences - if

the Assad regime does not comply. has a big commitment. I have spent

counterpart over the last week. Russia has said, this is something

you will have to do. We will work with Russia and others very closely

to check there is compliance will this resolution. Given the progress

that has been made, you must be very glad that the British House of

Commons stopped your rash to force against Syria. -- rush. The reason

credible threat of military action. has happened is because there was a

credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it

through Congress. They have not President Obama did not get it

the vote in Congress. There is no other explanation as to why the

policy changed. It was because there was a debate about military

action in the West that the policy changed on theirs. That is why it

changed. We were not in a rush for military action. The boat put to

the House of Commons was to have inspectors reported. It was before

Russian and Syrian policy changed. We need to make sure that works

Russian and Syrian policy changed. practice. Thank you. What do you

make about this rushing forward with the help to buy scheme which

was meant to start next year - coming forward mad to the next

couple of weeks? I think it is a Government having an interest in

mortgage lending. -- there is a fundamental problem. It should have

been set much lower to exclude London and the South East where

houses are dramatically overvalued. Many economists think freezing

energy prices is a terrible policy. These policies can be popular. If

you have no chance of getting a deposit, the Government will make

Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do

anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it

forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they

forward and there are signs it is doing this is they want to show

this week at the conference there are real sort of understandable

issues you can explain very simply that really up going to improve

people's lives. The Conservatives Miliband's speech last week. The

nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price

freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on

that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism

to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will

be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will

about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the

political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities

standards, things that are some more fiddly things, particularities

below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with

below that picture, I do not think Labour Party. It is about borrowing

against a party that stands for Labour Party. It is about borrowing

is unemployment, GDP growth and Labour Party. It is about borrowing

warming economic picture. That does not pay energy bills. Does not

sound that the Tories have anything not pay energy bills. Does not

to counter the price freeze. -- not pay energy bills. Does not

does not sound. They have had a week to think about a great attack

line and they do not add anything. They have just said, the lights

the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike

the credibility test. Ed Miliband energy prices, he would not be able

it is about credibility. Being seen as serious and grown-up is worth

it is about credibility. Being seen more than any burst of popularity.

with the election campaign, it My worry about the announcement

with the election campaign, it begins to lose credibility, begins

to seem a banana republic. It looks a lot less wise than it did last

week. I disagree. Every time energy bills go up and they will continue

to go up, it will be a reminder bills go up and they will continue

how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy

prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that

was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may

be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving

be making huge profit but, at the the cost of fuel is China and India.

Ed Miliband, great man that he is, I am not sure he can take on the

people Sammir on that one. How dare Labour's Conference in Brighton

last week. Dogged by criticism over the summer of his leadership style

and lack of policies, Mr Miliband tried to demonstrate his strength

of character with a series of bold announcements, and attempted to

position himself on the side of ordinary Brits. The Labour leader

told party members he would stand up to the strong and take on the

vested interests that hold back up to the strong and take on the

economy. In a speech in which he jokingly referred to himself as

economy. In a speech in which he action hero, Mr Miliband promised

to switch the forthcoming business action hero, Mr Miliband promised

tax cut from large firms to smaller businesses. He said he would force

big firms to train at an apprentice every time they bring in a worker

from outside the EU. He hinted that increasing the minimum wage would

be increased. He bowed to take on developers with a use it or lose it

threat to landowners and pledged to build 200,000 homes each year by

2020. He promised to freeze energy prices and reset the energy market.

The next Labour government will freeze gas and electricity prices

provoked a rash of headlines - hailing the return of red Ed macro.

It has also given him a spike in the polls. And Labour's Shadow

Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In

what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left

companies that dominate the energy generate energy, and sell it on

companies that dominate the energy Miliband recognised when he was

Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company

Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,

all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms of a

warm front programme and everything Horsell market is too secretive

warm front programme and everything it is too much about such supply. -

- the wholesale market. We have been raising with the Government in

a co-operative way the argument been raising with the Government in

resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which

prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to privatisation. We took some reforms

realised it was not working and privatisation. We took some reforms

was broken and we need to reset privatisation. We took some reforms

Ed Miliband will be the first to onwards. Let's have a look at what

happened to energy prices under onwards. Let's have a look at what

Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up

by 48%. The market was broken and we saw prices biking as wholesale

prices went up. The tick action we saw prices biking as wholesale

the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we

programme. Trying to do things around social obligations needs

programme. Trying to do things be looked at. Gas and electricity

presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look

at the breakdown of dual fuel - of Labour policy. Beds have a look

and electricity bill. -- let's have a look. The supply costs of getting

it to us and so on. The policies government - Green levies - are

energy bills. £112 on average bill of 1188. You have put the bill up.

obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.

Overwhelmingly, looking at your wholesale costs are worth more than

half. What we have seen, based on figures we now have, in Eni macro,

a wholesale costs fell by 39% and that was not reflected in our bills.

Do you have plans to do anything about the £112? If you took that

off, you could cut bills by 10% tomorrow. Or if you were in power.

It is important that restimulate energy. It -- we stimulate. If we

do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil

do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will

create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,

investment. If I could go back to whatever advance there are, looking

at whether the money raised through energy companies to deliver energy

efficiency, is that doing as well as it might? Could it be better

delivered by another agency? They are fair questions. We need to get

market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is

downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our

bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help

As you complain about the energy prices, it was as a result of your

actions. Ed Miliband introduced prices, it was as a result of your

climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for

decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much

as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out

there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills,

there. It is important that we also recognise that if we are going

to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British

renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge

wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in

bills of 5%. Which are saying that the big companies are overcharging

customers. We are seeing profits going up, but we haven't seen the

amount of investment suggested by those profits coming through. But

because your leader said in his speech in Brighton that Labour will

have a world leading commitment speech in Brighton that Labour will

Government to take out all carbon from energy generation by 2030.

Government to take out all carbon is not that far away. By 2030, no

more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive

nuclear and much more expensive without bills going up even further?

Hang on a second. The 2030 target to remove carbon from the electricity

supply, we have said we should set a target now because, actually, it

gives us more time to plan ahead and also allows investment to come in.

There is plenty of people with cash in their pockets not want to invest

what they are stalling because of the Government's hesitancy over

this. I just want a clarification here. My understanding is that your

commitment is to get rid of all carbon from power generation by

2030? From the letters city supply. Only electricity. We will still

2030? From the letters city supply. gas? We have always said we will

need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be

increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding

twice the market price to build plans in this country. Renewables

are two or three times the market price. Bills are going up under

are two or three times the market policies? On nuclear, we took a

decision under the Labour Government that we needed to revitalise the

sector, to hit targets on clean that we needed to revitalise the

energy and make sure it can do the heavy lifting. The Government at the

discussions with EDF about what heavy lifting. The Government at the

important, because I don't know heavy lifting. The Government at the

it's going to be, it is important that stands up to scrutiny in terms

of value for money. At the same time, I go back to market reforms.

difference, the jargon for nuclear, We will not just have a target for

difference, the jargon for nuclear, we will have it for renewables as

well. That is even more important, that we have a transparent market so

that we can have a robust target that we have a transparent market so

that we can have a robust target price to be judged against. Michael

Gove recognised in question time they used the term cosy cartel.

Gove recognised in question time Cameron saying something needs to be

done. I'm surprised David Cameron doesn't acknowledge that. You are

going to freeze prices for 20 months regulator to replace Ofgem. Will

that regulator have the power to regulator to replace Ofgem. Will

control prices? The new energy wholesale costs and prices, which it

moment. As a result of that it will wholesale costs and prices, which it

wholesale prices fall, it can force the energy companies, if they don't,

to pass on reductions in bills to consumers. It will not have what we

see in some parts of the European Union, 15 of them, that have a

variety of price controls that set things at below inflation and what

have you. France, Spain, Italy. things at below inflation and what

will not do that. Why? Because we are looking at a temporary price

freeze to reflect a reduction in are looking at a temporary price

British public respite from ever reforms into the market. At the

British public respite from ever of this, what we want is a more

competitive market that can be trusted, that is more transparent.

We do believe it is right that, actually, we need a regulator that

has much more of a role in making effectively. Are you accusing energy

companies of profiteering? EU I effectively. Are you accusing energy

accusing them of overcharging and not passing on wholesale reduction

costs to the customer in a fair not passing on wholesale reduction

Of making Carter -- cartel profits? I do believe that the level of

profits they have passed on to their shareholders is high, compared to

the reductions they could have provided to consumers. Let's look at

the evidence for that. Here are provided to consumers. Let's look at

British owned companies, SSE and Centrica. In the last fiscal year

they made combined earnings of Centrica. In the last fiscal year

billion. The remaining money went to debt servicing and paying dividends,

which go into pension funds. Where profiteering? My figures that I

which go into pension funds. Where through their reporting to Ofgem and

work done by other organisations, Witch and others, it shows that

work done by other organisations, Centrica's case they have something

like 8% return in profit margins on the retail side. That goes up to 24%

on the generation side. They have passed on, in terms of profits,

something I70 4% through evidence to shareholders. But these figures

don't show that. They have invested £3 billion. I am reporting what

don't show that. They have invested been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has

They may well be, but we don't have the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem

of not doing the job they should be of not doing the job they should be

doing, and they have held back from across the big six, something like

50% of profits has gone over to Centrica's case it is 74%. On the

Centrica example, even though they have had the highest profit margins,

they have invested the least. It is fair to question. We are running out

of time. None of us really know fair to question. We are running out

the true price of energy is that is crucial. That is because he merged

the market and we can't tell the difference. If they continue putting

prices up, even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in

prices up, even after your price way that they do, do you rule out

competitive market and that is why watching Sunday Politics. Coming up

in just over 20 minutes I will be looking at the week ahead with our

Coming up in the North West: I'll be joined live by the Chancellor George

Osborne, and the Prime Minister tells me why we can't afford to

Osborne, and the Prime Minister Labour. What Ed Miliband is doing is

saying that his first act as Prime Minister would be to spend another

dominating Manchester today, and are broadcasting live from the

Bridgewater Hall as Tory party members gather in the Manchester

conference. We will be talking to the Chancellor and MP for Tatton,

George Osborne. First, I am joined by Professor Jon Tonge of Liverpool

University. Where are the Tories Conservatives are in good spirits.

They believe that the economic mess it has been vindicated and that

They believe that the economic mess can achieve economic growth whilst

cutting the deficit. They would argue that you cannot spend money

the nation doesn't have. Chancellor must not appear like centre forward,

it would only take one bad set of economic figures to perhaps fatally

Conservatives but the message this week will be that we are on course

Party's position in the North West. The Conservatives have 21 of 72

seats in the region, although Nigel considered vulnerable battle ground

seats. In the will collections the council and 16 seats. They also

seats. In the will collections the Derbyshire, that as the economy

recovers the polls are narrowing. Well, Chris Rider has been looking

at the challenges facing the party eighteen months before the expected

general election. Asking people eighteen months before the expected

Conservative? No. The aid if I ask why? From Margaret Thatcher and

everything, she brought the country down. I am a primary school teacher

and I hate the new performance only Conservatives with the economy but

you can't with Labour. David Skelton Conservative voters in Manchester.

The party was once more popular Conservative voters in Manchester.

but has not had an MP for 26 years. The Conservatives have hired his

grip to boost the appeal across The Conservatives have hired his

North. The Conservatives have had a major challenge for several decades,

people living in cities and towns, Councillors in those cities and

people living in cities and towns, is a major issue for them. They

people living in cities and towns, show they are on the side of these

groups of voters. Will this message Like businesswoman Mary Robinson? My

details are here. She wants to take Cheadle from the Liberal Democrats

in 2015 and says the party is making an impact. I find that people are at

the seating what we are doing as a party, that people are seeing that

the Conservatives are trying to deficit. It was four months ago

the Conservatives are trying to the Conservatives lost control of

luggage county council after four years in charge. —— Lancashire

county council. There is maybe a perception about the North—South

that a lot of the government is centred on the south, and people in

the Northfield neglected. What do the Conservatives need to do address

that? The need to come here more often. We try very often to get

speakers, and it is very difficult. It is as though they cannot come

Germany will prove crucial if the Conservatives are to get the return

tickets to number ten. —— making of I'm joined now by the Chancellor and

Tatton MP George Osborne. Thank I'm joined now by the Chancellor and

programme. It is good to be here. In Haiti, do you think it is likely

that we make tapping better off Haiti, do you think it is likely

Labour 's economic plan than yours? No, Labour 's economic plan would

have been an economic disaster for this country and you can see other

countries in Europe who pursued this country and you can see other

rate of knots dealing with their debts as they are any huge amount of

trouble. We have turned a corner and the economy is growing, but of

course we still have a long way the economy is growing, but of

go and for many families it is still a difficult time. We have a small

amount of economic both but if you would get the wider picture the

British economy is still two and a half percent smaller than it was

before the recession. Let's be clear, what happened in 2008 and

2009 was an economic catastrophe for this country. Britain was made over

by that event. We are recovering from it, we are fixing problems

by that event. We are recovering dealing with their debts but look at

the north—west. There are more people in jobs than there were three

years ago, in deployment is lower, and police are investing in this

part of Britain, so I would say and police are investing in this

are making progress. —— companies something you said, that we are

better off than other countries something you said, that we are

are the country that has recovered the least of the G—7 other than

Italy. We had the deepest recession of any country in the G—7. Biggest

economic catastrophe. If you are better, I agree because Germany

economic catastrophe. If you are the decision to use the good years

to invest in infrastructure and education and do all the things

to invest in infrastructure and didn't do when the sun was shining

and I would say that we are now fixing these problems, helping here

in the north—west big infrastructure projects in the trans—Pennine route

and lots of road schemes happening here, but also helping by attracting

big companies and small businesses to this area to create jobs. We

big companies and small businesses come to that, but your big plan

big companies and small businesses to balance the books and get rid of

the deficit. The reality is that this has not worked. The officer but

at any responsibility says that deficit production has stalled. The

deficit is down by one third but it is still too high. It is not coming

down at the rate trajectory. It is still too high. It is not coming

fallen by one third, a huge amount of progress. We are having this

interview any week when the Italian government is in real trouble, there

is a problem in the US Congress government is in real trouble, there

the budget problems, the debt crisis is still with us around the world.

If you think that Britain can ease up when it still has this deficit

alternative plan on offer, the so—called plan be more borrowing and

more debt and more spending would be would have been less deeper cuts. In

terms of your plan because you have not got the deficit down as you

terms of your plan because you have you would it means there will be

another two years of cuts. We have seen over the last week and police

services are talking about more officers being cut because of that.

Trend is down in this country so you can reform public services like

Trend is down in this country so you police and schools to deliver a

better service for the people who use these services and rely on them

and indeed a better environment use these services and rely on them

the people working in them. But use these services and rely on them

you're telling me there is still a lot of work to do I completely agree

with you. I am seeing that your plans are in schedule and they have

not worked in the way you have told us they would. We are coming around

and people are looking at Betton and seeing that this country is getting

to grips with its problems. —— unbalanced economy were for over a

decade we as a country took the unbalanced economy were for over a

that we could lie on the city of London to provide all of the tax

revenues and economic growth and places like the North West could be

neglected. That was the liberal approach and I will not repeat it. I

reality is that rebalancing the economy is not working. As it proved

more difficult than you expected? This as a long—term challenge and

you must invest in things like the HS two real link that will create

jobs. —— high speeds to rail link. How will this benefit the Northwest

more than the south? It will benefit the whole country, it will bring

much regeneration to be any avid thousands of jobs in this city,

much regeneration to be any avid Birmingham and London and to the

investment that this country needs to make, it is the sort of thing

that everyone back on disputed in ten or 20 years time ITV did not do

this kind of thing we would regret Northwest economy but it would not

advantage than London other side. It would, it would change the economic

geography of the country and make this an attractive place to invest

and grow business and employ people. It is one of the number of things we

must do as a country to ensure that we are not putting all of our bets

on London. That is what Gordon Brown and Tony Blair and Ed Balls at Ed

Miliband dead and that was a huge mistake. You said we need to get

manufacturing going and we still you're telling me that this country

has problems that need solving and I would be the first to agree with

you. What I saying is, when will the them? Manufacturing is growing,

you. What I saying is, when will the we must do a lot more because over

the past 15 years manufacturing we must do a lot more because over

halved as a share of our economy. This country needs to make things

that the rest of the world wants to buy, and the good news as we are

making these things though and that is part of BB balancing of our

economy. You must fix the long—term problems as well as the immediate

problem is that the financial crisis brought about. One of those problems

was unemployment. You have mentioned that but you haven't told us was

that unemployment nationally is marginally down from when you became

Chancellor, in the Northwest it marginally down from when you became

marginally up. I would say that there are more jobs you are the

Chancellor, but we need to do more and I expect more companies to come

to the Northwest and expand and create jobs, I would expect more

Company is to be able to do that, I think we will have better news on

the jobs front in the weeks ahead. I businesses are able to create jobs,

jobs are there for people and people have the rate skills to take those

jobs. That is the fundamentals of getting the economy working. Thank

you for your time and thank you getting the economy working. Thank

Well, that's the view from the top of the party, time now to cross

Well, that's the view from the top to the conference centre itself

Well, that's the view from the top join Stuart Pollitt who's with some

starting to fill up with delegates. They are looking around the various

conservative stalls and helping themselves to a jacket or trinkets.

We have heard from George Osborne and David Cameron, what did people

on the ground think. I am joined by two Conservative party members,

on the ground think. I am joined by and Alison. Poll, if there's one

thing he wants to hear, what is and Alison. Poll, if there's one

I want to hear what the Conservative government will do for cost of

living and how they will help people in my area actually get more money

in their pocket and states that in my area actually get more money

further when the going shopping every week. That is what I want

further when the going shopping hear. Allison, what about you? The

economy is back up and running and we are getting there but my work is

very much a riddle ought and we we are getting there but my work is

to see more benefit for smaller businesses and independence traders.

—— rule award. Pol, what is the businesses and independence traders.

topic —— the hot topic in your code is immigration, what are people

multicultural area but even the ethnic members are seeing that they

want control and immigrations and they want to ensure that we know

who's coming to the country at the acid to come here. That we are

controlling the number of people coming to the area, because we don't

know what will happen. The change in make up is actually making pensions

saw in all the married one with tensions there, we don't want that

again. —— we saw in all time. We want to make sure we have the right

people coming in. Alison, planning as a big topic for you? Yes, as

people coming in. Alison, planning mentioned we are very rural, added

my bottle we have a nut —— in my development to 2026 but when we

refuse planning applications and the big developers are going to be

decisions by local councillors are getting overturned and we need to

planning. Thank you very much. There are plenty of things on sale here, I

have picked up some here. Our Maggie beer. If you fancy that. And perhaps

a little iron Lady baby bed. Proof that the future of the party is

a little iron Lady baby bed. Proof the agenda. They have not forgotten

their past, either. Thank you very much. What did you make of what

their past, either. Thank you very Chancellor had to say? Be Chancellor

talked up the recovery, but he did not mention the high business death

businesses feel every year. He did not say whether he would help the

high Street, which has been badly affected by online shopping. We

businesses with a business rate evaluation. There is more to be

businesses with a business rate in the Chancellor must be careful

this week that he does not overtop the recovery given the pain that

people have experienced. The top dog the kind of work that they are

trying to do in the Northwest in terms of regeneration projects.

trying to do in the Northwest in he talked up. There was not much

talk of national rebalancing. We are to public sector dependent you in

the Northwest and must develop the private sector. There have been

45,000 job stated here but we are still overdependent on the public

sector. Unemployment is too high. We have heard from the other main

parties leaders over the past couple of weeks, today it is time to speak

to David Cameron. I interviewed of weeks, today it is time to speak

in Downing Street and bigger by asking him about another difficult

electoral year in which the party lost control of Lancashire county

It is a council that we won in a huge swing when we were opposition,

with all of the difficult decisions in government you sometimes lose

some support. It is a council that had not been Labour for a long time

and of course they did not win outright but that is more comfort

for people in my fisher who were benefiting from the council tax

rises and from a good Conservative council. We must go on and win the

argument and that is what this wanted to ASCII about Ed Miliband

last week he announced that he will repeal the Bedroom Tax if he came

into government. Hardly aware of how unpopular that policy is in part of

Many of policies are popular but we're an enormous deficit and we

must get it under control. People want to see us reform welfare have

cut the cost of it anyway that is fair. When I look at the spare room

subsidy the point I think of is this, that we do not subsidise

people for additional spare ribs and private sector accommodation when

they are on housing benefits and we should not get people back to money

for spare rooms when they are in council accommodation. What Ed

Miliband is doing is saying that his first act as prime minister would be

to spend another billion pounds first act as prime minister would be

welfare, putting up a deficit, more exactly the things that got us into

this mess. Let me ask you about exactly the things that got us into

practicality. In a region there exactly the things that got us into

actually a lack of one—bedroom properties. If people are being

forced out of homes with a spare bedroom, it means that they are

actually going into the private sector and ending up having to pay

more. There are two things that sector and ending up having to pay

happen, there is the opportunity to go into private rented accommodation

and there is also the opportunity to rearrange the way we use council

housing and housing association housing so we make sure that more

people can have the housing that is appropriate for them. There is not

enough of it, Prime Minister. Kill not forget the hundreds of thousands

of people across the Northwest who live in overcrowded accommodation

who would love a house or flat that as a spare room because they can use

it. We should remember the people who do not have housing on the

housing list as well as those who are losing the spare room subsidy.

The argue that —— the argument you hear from councils in places like

Liverpool is that the cuts have hear from councils in places like

them harder than other parts of hear from councils in places like

country and that they are really struggling to provide the services

they need to provide. I don't accept that, we have tried to be fair

across the cities, the ruble areas, the north and south. If I look at

Manchester then the spare room —— Manchester is £2600, some £400 ahead

of the average for England. That is right because there are special

issues that must be addressed. That is why they get more money. That is

£400 more than the average, per house throughout the Manchester

£400 more than the average, per Council area. That is fair. Hardly

aware of the problems that appeared universal credit which is being

piloted in part of a region? Of course I am following this very

closely, it is an enormously, aided reform on one level because you

closely, it is an enormously, aided replacing many benefits, housing

benefit and working tax credit and income support with one credit,

benefit and working tax credit and info is very good and simple which

is to make sure you are always better off in work and always better

off if you work extra hours. That you do not fall into a poverty trap.

I make no apology for taking it slowly but the idea that you are

always better off in work is a good one. Thank you very much. That was

the prime minister talking to me in Downing Street ahead of the party

conference. I asked him about the loss of life is a county council, he

played it down. I worried well the party be? Elmer very worried. You

must member that UKIP was not a party be? Elmer very worried. You

elections so they cannot blame defections to UKIP for a seat they

can grab back at the general. You also have the Lord Ashcroft survey

of the modules which suggests that Labour is doing better and you also

have the Yugo survey would suggest that Labour is enjoying a salad

have the Yugo survey would suggest its own party conference. Partly

because of the pledge on energy prices. You can win an election

because of the pledge on energy a steady but slow recovery message,

Conservatives are looking to enthuse the election more. Why has the party

been struggling in those marginal seats? What is it they don't like

that the government has been doing? immigration. The Conservatives have

the problem with UKIP and also people seeking clarification on

David Cameron on what the terms people seeking clarification on

renegotiation will be in terms of what happens in 2017 when we head

towards referendum on Europe should the Conservatives be elected. There

are still severe problems in terms of European immigration that the

Time for the rest of the week's of European immigration that the

Commissioner Clive Grunshaw says he won't resign over allegations he

fiddled his expenses. The Labour party's suspended him but he denies

Merseyside Police expect to lose another thousand officers as public

is unacceptable to put the police at 1120 unable to perform their duties.

It is a step too far. You are on the wrong track. That's the view of

Manchester City Council Leader Sir Chancellor Ed Balls suggested Labour

might withdraw support for high The latest standoff between the

Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson The latest standoff between the

the Communities Secretary Eric Pickles, this time over government

intervention into plans for the Welsh Streets, where Ringo Starr

once lived. It is a nightmare to live in a situation, all of the

residents have lived on —— lead live in a situation, all of the

And building a new future — the live in a situation, all of the

District National Park has created zones where more than 400 new homes

can be built. John, there is a big march to pass in a few hours from

the TUC, how much does that kind of thing worry the Conservatives? The

idea that the Northwest has been harder hit by public sector cuts?

The Conservatives will only be worried by the TUC demonstration if

dismissive of the demonstration outside, arguing that they have

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage conference initiatives? And what is

UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to with the Tories in Manchester?

On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,

let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not

looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice

at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We

at the general election. The British on the right track, we are seeing

more jobs, new businesses, we are beginning to get things moving

again. Do you want to stick with us, hard-working people, or do you want

to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want

and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime

there any appetite on the UKIP side discussions around the country,

there any appetite on the UKIP side would say no. It's being discussed,

is the media that is pushing this. It has reflected what has happened

conference season began. Labour It has reflected what has happened

trying to reclaim what I would call position. I'm not sure what the

Liberal Democrats or two, but the Conservatives are trying to react to

accusation they are lurching more to the right, which the media wants to

able to do some sort of pact with interpret as them possibly being

able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to

whatsoever. It is not on the radar. I have read comments, including

Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's

call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt

that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is

not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an

have responded to that by saying, the moment, there are no ongoing

discussions. There is certainly constituency level or coming out of

believe any constituencies are Eurosceptics? I am not privy to

believe any constituencies are all 360 constituencies might be

discussing. All I can do is give you the example of the few I have seen

and know it is not on the agenda. Without a pact, it is perfectly

possible that you could fail to Without a pact, it is perfectly

a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing

Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are

very clear marginals, just like a number of seats out there that are

Izzard was. I believe there could be an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

you take enough votes away from an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment

I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held

seat, even after that result, does not mean that UKIP is suddenly going

to be focusing on Tory seats. We are out there because people resonate

with our message. For the Liberal Democrats to make it abundantly

clear that they will not support a referendum, that they will not

support any discussion on leaving the queue, that could be a big

turn-off for voters. David Cameron says there is not going to be a

pact, Diane James says there is says there is not going to be a

going to be one. There might be says there is not going to be a

or at a constituency level. But says there is not going to be a

seems clear to me that there will not be a national one. So, does

David Cameron have a UKIP strategy? The only encouraging thing for

UKIP's successful David Cameron that the moment that he would only

that their support is so enormous that the moment that he would only

really need to win back maybe a third or a quarter of its to make a

decisive difference to the Tory share of the vote in 2015. The

question becomes, how much of that UKIP support is up for grabs? A

question becomes, how much of that last week suggested that 47% of

current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing

Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against

recovery. So, plausibly, there is secondary question is, what does

David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will

referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration

policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until

the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice

Cameron, and that is what shifts a Cameron. We heard from William Hague

earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you

could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple

appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European

elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where

you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited

about that, I think that bounce be hard for people to get excited

fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a good ground game, that is difficult

for UKIP, that don't have that machinery sorted. How are they going

to fund that operation? But the machinery sorted. How are they going

bounce could fade away after the European elections. Even if they go

election, they are still immensely dangerous to the Conservative Party.

But there is really only two things David Cameron can do. One is to

But there is really only two things boring and talk about helping people

with their mortgage, helping with bread and butter issues. The second

thing is, those European actions, he tends to the natural Conservative

voters and says, you have had your fun, next year do you want me or Ed

Miliband us your prime and? The fun, next year do you want me or Ed

danger with David Cameron is saying, of course, there is not going to be

a pact, the danger is you will get a repeat of the 1977 election. John

Major said, famously, do not bind my hands. A series of Conservative

personally rule out membership of the euro, when the Conservative

membership was wait and see. That looked like a Prime Minister not in

charge of his party. The danger looked like a Prime Minister not in

Let's assume you do really well looked like a Prime Minister not in

the European actions and there is a widespread expectation that you

will, even in Downing Street. They might be managing expectations.

will, even in Downing Street. They stops you fading away as the general

election approaches? A number of reasons. As has been mentioned,

election approaches? A number of whole issue of the referendum pledge

has been proved to be an absolute nonsense. It is so contingent on if

I am re-elected, if it's not a coalition government, is, if, if.

That was fooled nobody. The issue of where voters are coming from, it is

because they have lost faith in where voters are coming from, it is

David Cameron says. There is nothing he is going to say that is convince

think that is my view and the view of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

they have expunged Nigel Farage of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

the fringes? It is a great scoop, on the front page. They are outside the

ring of steel. Even so, they won't programme, so they must be worried

paid money for adverts in the Tory about something. His people have

paid money for adverts in the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

out. Speaking of people the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

leadership is worried about, Boris Johnson, are we in any doubt as

leadership is worried about, Boris interview that he is now beginning

his long march back to Parliament? He does express feeling slightly sad

during the Syria debate that he He does express feeling slightly sad

not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do

not there, on the political front see why it is in his interest is to

move before 2015. No, I don't think he will move before, I think he

move before 2015. No, I don't think sending a signal to the existing

Tories in the Commons that when sending a signal to the existing

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the Vince Cable problem, if you

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the same thing too many times,

people get bored and factor it in. The interesting thing is him saying

that people have seven years before the electorate get bored of them. He

might be cresting that. He doesn't want to be Prime Minister, he is

much more ambitious than that. He wants to be an emperor. He was

asked, which Roman emperor would you like to be compared to? You said,

important. I don't think you are thinking big enough. See what I

important. I don't think you are to put up with, every Sunday? By

virtue of being born in the US, to put up with, every Sunday? By

could be president. Unlike Arnold Schwarzenegger. How about a deal

with Boris? He has made no secret, after Eastleigh, that he would be

open to a discussion. Let's call it no more than a discussion. He has

been adamant, however, he does not see any reason, any justification or

any opportunity where he would be able to have that discourse with

any opportunity where he would be David Cameron. Maybe it comes down

to that on both sides. I've no idea. We know that the Tories will be

to that on both sides. I've no idea. more Eurosceptic after the next

election? I can't imagine David Cameron's successor will be somebody

that supports EU membership in ideological direction of the party.

The leadership contest will be about 2018. If you are standing, when

this is a great deal for Britain membership, are you going to say

this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has

turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,

turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader

by saying, I want out? What would be a good conference for David Cameron

eye-catching announcement related to living standards. May be a clearer

line on energy prices? That would certainly help, that fightback has

been rubbish so far. The thing we should be looking out for are not

the polls immediately after, but the ones about the end of October, when

everything gets to settle down and then we will see what happens. In a

word, what is Nigel Farage out to get at the Tory conference? What is

he doing, other than mischief? I could almost say revenge. Revenge on

Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord Ashcroft was there at the Labour

conference. You call it mischief, but there is every reason why he

should be there. We all call it mischief. Thanks for being with

should be there. We all call it Join me on Daily Politics for live

coverage of the Conservative Party conference tomorrow morning from

11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring conference tomorrow morning from

George Osborne's speech live and uninterrupted. I'll be back next

weekend when guests will include former Conservative Chancellor

Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it former Conservative Chancellor

Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.