06/10/2013 Sunday Politics North West

Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU

election? We talk to the Tory rebel demanding one next year, that is our

top story. As government ministers prepare to decide how the press

should be regulated, what will be You are talking about the colour of

He will try to force a vote in the October. Home Secretary Theresa

He will try to force a vote in the was asked about his plans on the BBC

earlier this morning. I think he has got it wrong, I think what we need

to do is to negotiate the settlement with the European Union and then put

that to the people me to decide whether to be in or out. Is this a

flea bite or a real threat? I think the next election, a Conservative

Party that will be offering people that renegotiation, a new settlement

with Europe, looking to the future and putting that to the British

people in and in or out referendum. And what the amendment possibly

could do, as James Wharton, who And what the amendment possibly

putting the Referendum Bill through Parliament has said, is it could

jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie joins us now from Millbank studio.

Good morning. If the referendum would be held next October, it would

have to be an in-out question based the status quo? There wouldn't be

time for a full renegotiation. I disagree. By having a referendum in

2014, it gives us 12 months to renegotiate, but it kick-started

negotiations, because the European Union, if they wish us to remain

and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate

and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,

strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time

for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has

not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our

timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I

think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I

a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need

certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for

ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for

conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is

essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their

souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That

would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I

said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.

You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.

the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they

don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I

wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British

people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties

here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,

I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be

good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be

referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the

referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue

that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to

deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust

deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables

in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables

this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables

is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables

the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum

within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may

within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got

your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to

an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come

forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come

to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever

closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us

more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us

our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to

happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in

negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in

people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime

Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It

certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five

weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,

is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know

cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in

2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop

this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your

party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol

Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the

Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but

Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or

not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or

British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with

it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for

each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and

decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the

headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this

opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this

say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a

say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle

with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the

panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with

him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with

that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most

prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if

you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in

charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.

They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill

is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.

It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the

next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that

all the future government would theoretically impossible and that

is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that

Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that

nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David

Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would

Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to

his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do

not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in

that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister

has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister

membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able

to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking

what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could

not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could

a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is

has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some

pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were

going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of

the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to

hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an

operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,

operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign

is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy

under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am

pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton

is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton

bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main

episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David

Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope

Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is

in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do

you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but

not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from

you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from

scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,

re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy

really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.

Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.

this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would

this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to

without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to

without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in

the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to

the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two

been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.

Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this

scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is

works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a

value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to

Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up

to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up

time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first

losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first

future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if

you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the

5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating

banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot

get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in

our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford

the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So

Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a

to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the

people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is

a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in

the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it

the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools

or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee

housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.

But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of

help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the

months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed

to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like

Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once

the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the

high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People

might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would

the government want to make those products available then now? It

the government want to make those more what investment banks were

doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the

depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the

game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years

but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years

first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years

it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand

over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at

the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care

economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a

house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term

economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull

off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to

off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the

Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the

the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a

Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City

It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.

Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in

London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it

will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even

more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in

tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.

What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on

average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on

property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they

cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people

to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will

cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any

have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record

have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not

the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not

new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see

enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution

to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes

and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the

deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed

laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed

prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government

is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create

these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not

a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take

part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the

money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The

taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The

guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the

change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in

response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying

for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like

these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused

the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly

asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house

prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding

bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding

circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding

on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they

should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier

to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission

to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a

huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a

recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a

the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the

figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the

an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third

up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and

up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put

into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I

agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector

advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron

says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They

don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on

the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable

housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like

in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes

were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people

could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%

mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go

struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced

with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.

95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.

repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?

They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are

already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are

lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into

this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are

this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should

limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape

limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the

Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father

Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone

with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and

with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on

printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word

printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also

reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's

uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,

but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers

but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a

but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John

Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John

reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion

about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang

about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making

sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making

do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making

right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is

about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is

and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they

are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we

will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the

proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did

with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the

with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship

between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,

between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press

industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect

the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope

the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent

with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.

You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through

the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled

son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about

Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about

couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are

editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the

judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the

old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject

old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until

you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near

the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have

been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is

fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say

Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.

As you said, you have the same position when they go through your

rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime

Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action

of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the

frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go

Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press

box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a

means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to

introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not

introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair

Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair

are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for

this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to

account. When Ed Miliband rang me it regulation, he wanted the argument

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband regulation, he wanted the argument

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband after Paul Dacre's head? No, he

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband stay there. It is like with Murdoch,

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband we were not attacking him but what

extent, what they are doing about politicians who can look after

themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they

might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well

destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre

got good judgment? I would say no, Thank you for joining us, he did not

even have to go to the BBC studios, we sent a truck there for him. What

is the endgame in this? Whether we sent a truck there for him. What

Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,

this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy

Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before

question is, what is political unfashionable view, is that the

total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past

those who do care believe that all parties are roughly complicit in

being too close to editors and proprietors. You said that Adam

Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a smile. Is the Daily Mail also a

Labour mole? This has been a dream for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch,

I am taking on the energy companies and now the evil Daily Mail! I

think... I should say I used to and now the evil Daily Mail! I

for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they

surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done

surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this

position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think

the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.

If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do

this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the

media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a

dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David

Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some

common ground between the three so-called press industry version.

What the Daily Mail has done is ensured that the Prime Minister

What the Daily Mail has done is What is going to happen this week is

that the press Royal Charter has to be considered first, and that will

probably be rejected. The Privy Council will reject it. Then the

three party Royal Charter will come up, but meanwhile the press will set

up their own regulatory body because the Royal Charter is not a proper

statutory underpinning, they will be able to go ahead with that. There

statutory underpinning, they will be will be the legal basis for the

resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the

profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for

victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the

narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But

all those vested interests are people that you would expect a

left-wing politician to want to people that you would expect a

on. It is also more significant about who he has stood up for, and

the person he has studied for is his father. Maybe people thought of

the person he has studied for is his as a Marxist, now they think of

the person he has studied for is his as war hero. He gets to the crux of

matters, you know! You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in

Out with the old, in with the new. The councils kick starting their

local economies with a make over. Some councils are ambitious and

local economies with a make over. Back to business as usual after

local economies with a make over. party conferences and joining me in

Conservative MP for Altrincham and Sale West, Graham Brady. And Andrew

Miller, the Labour MP for Ellesmere want to start with a little reminder

My ambition is to provide free school meals for all primary school

children. Another reason we want to get into government again next time

round. The next Labour government will freeze gas and electricity

prices until the start of 2017. Let's make Blackpool the centre

prices until the start of 2017. Europe for the shale gas industry.

Let's make Manchester the leader in advanced materials. Do you think

anything? It has been interesting. The speeches given by Ed Miliband

dominated the following week. That together with the dreadful events of

the Daily Mail has released one together with the dreadful events of

any success that David Cameron might have had from an. I agree with the

first part of that. The speech that Ed Miliband made certainly started

to set a more polarised sort of politics again. In some ways, that

played and what David Cameron sop to do which is to say we are doing

responsible and steady job with do which is to say we are doing

economy and want to carry on doing that. Ed Miliband moving to the

economy and want to carry on doing message I think assisted him. It was

reported over the summer that you Conservative MPs who wanted to

trigger a leadership vote against conference season has strengthened

his position? I think he is in a strong position and will lead the

party to the next general election and beyond. Although Ed Miliband's

speech had been popular, Tories and beyond. Although Ed Miliband's

that it put him too far to the left so that opened up opportunities

that it put him too far to the left the Tories. I agree with the first

part of those comments. I think Conservatives up until the next

general election and that will be think he has set out a series of

policies that he wants to take forward into the next Parliament.

That will not appeal to the views of the British public which are based

controversial planning cases in the British public which are based

country. The idea was to build a village for more than 2,000 students

near Chester, and it had the support of one our greatest Olympians. But

it would have been built on green belt land, was opposed by council

officers and has led to a furious political bust—up. This week it

officers and has led to a furious rejected after a highly unusual

meeting of the full council. As rejected after a highly unusual

Doak reports, it has left serious Around 200 people braved a wet night

to hear the debate on one of the developments. It lasted for more

than three hours and by 51 votes to one, the plans were rejected. We

have been campaigning for three years on this. We honestly thought

that our council was not listening. I am so relieved that councillors

tonight have voted the right way. My confidence has been shaken by some

aspects of what has happened in three years, but the little man

aspects of what has happened in won. Bell Developments wanted this

site for student accommodation. won. Bell Developments wanted this

the council's development plan says the council's own planners said

the council's development plan says should be rejected. Not even the

backing of five—time Olympic gold medallist Sir Steve Redgrave, who

institute there, could win over local opponents. The piece of green

belt they wanted to develop on has secretaries of state as the most

critical in Cheshire. The success of the city's university has meant

critical in Cheshire. The success of influx of students. And residents

feel overwhelmed. But this solution January, the planning committee

narrowly rejected the application. In May, Tory Chairman Myles Hogg

voted with Labour and was removed. The following day the application

was resubmitted. Last month, the constitution to refer the matter to

Thursday, the council threw out constitution to refer the matter to

plans. The decision has left the Conservative group divided and old

friends have ended up on opposite submission I made to the council, I

said this was against the local plan, against the evolving local

plan, against national planning policy and the application should be

turned down. The assembly rooms policy and the application should be

proposals. Everything stays the same. The developer is still own the

land, residents near the university doorstep. At the green belt is still

green. Democracy was seen in action. And we are joined now from Chester

Cheshire West and Chester Council, Mike Jones. Thank you and welcome to

the programme. What did you make of the overwhelming defeat of the

student Village on Thursday? As the overwhelming defeat of the

are aware, I was not there because I declared an interest in this because

I know the developers and have not application. I am very much in

somewhere in Chester because I think we need that to support a growing

university. Were you surprised by the scale of the defeat? Some people

voted against it who had previously planning. I have often gone for

planning applications in my own planning. I have often gone for

and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometimes it is a split

draw. Members go to a planning board with responsibilities for me on

their mind. They take a view based on the evidence presented to them at

that time. You mentioned you have links to the property developers,

something you have always properly declared. We can see a photograph of

you with Mike Bell, one of the developers in question. Do you

accept that because of that you developers in question. Do you

a particular obligation not to influence the vote either directly

or indirectly? That is correct in terms of directly. In terms of the

council processes. But we all have a right to express our own views.

council processes. But we all have a views are that I believe a student

village arrangement in this city is essential or we are going to lose

land that is dedicate —— designated pressure on the green belt for

additional housing if we are to pressure on the green belt for

the housing needs identified in pressure on the green belt for

local plan. The first question relates to the chairman of strategic

planning. Mike Hawk was seen as being independent and experienced on

this. You removed him and replaced them with somebody who has admitted

to having previous business links with the Bell brothers. Councillor

Hogg was asked if he would be the chairman of our pension fund. That

his 70,000 members and 3.5 William pounds. —— £3.5 billion. I felt

his 70,000 members and 3.5 William needed one of three people in the

group who had the confidence to needed one of three people in the

changes. Having served four years on planning, it was an opportunity

changes. Having served four years on refresh the planning board. Be

replaced him with someone who had previous links to the Bell brothers.

He has had one conversation. I would not regard that as substantial.

Coming off the committee at the not regard that as substantial.

time was a person who voted in favour of the application. Two

people who came onto the committee, I did not know how they would vote.

And they voted against that. I don't think there is an issue of moving

people around. At the time, there was no application in. Mr Greenwood

had previously voted in favour of an. Do you regret the fact that

had previously voted in favour of suspended for councillors from your

own group because the voted for suspended for councillors from your

to go to full council? They were suspended because they did something

without talking to the group and behaved in a unilateral way. The

group were upset on this. They took a vote. I don't suspend people from

the group, I just carry out the action. It will be the group that

agrees to let them back at some action. It will be the group that

in the future. They can choose not to as well. It is a group decision,

not my decision. Why did youth or word e—mails from supporters to

members of your group before the vote last night? I forwarded it

members of your group before the the planning officers and members of

planning applications and other messages. You don't feel that was

particular scheme? Absolutely not. If e—mails have been sent, it is

information so they can make their minds are based on the information

presented. If I remember rightly, the covering note was for your

information. There were no explicit comments encouraging a vote one

information. There were no explicit or another. You were close to the

developers, you replace an impartial member, you suspended for members

and you forwarded e—mails in favour and you don't feel you have behaved

joining us. What do you make of and you don't feel you have behaved

way that this was handled? Mike Jones has been very supportive of

this application. He is not seeking to deny that. He is supportive of

student villages in general. He to deny that. He is supportive of

active in supporting this particular application. You know is in the

bazaar situation where he not only has lost the support of his own

party, he has lost the vote, like Silvio Berlusconi. There is only one

on revolving friend to do and that confidence in him as leader of the

council? I have never been entirely happy with him, partly because he is

a conservative, but also because of the way that he wheels and deals and

those things behind the scenes transparent way and I have never

been entirely happy with the way he manages these things. I think he has

been caught out and he ought to resign at this point. What do you

Conservative council trying to push ahead with a project to build on

green belt land? Generally my view protected. That is what I would

green belt land? Generally my view to do in my own part of the world.

Green belt is important in keeping urban areas vibrant. It should be an

exception if it is changed. I think I am right in saying that George

Osborne has said he would like to ease the rules so there is more

Osborne has said he would like to an? I am a strong supporter of green

belt, let me be clear. But planning should not be a party political

manner. It is meant to be outside of party politics. I am a little way

away from these events, but looking at your package and interview, it

seems to me that democracy has acted and there is an overwhelming vote

This week, Warrington became the latest of our towns to announce

regeneration plans, while Salford set out its vision for the next

three years. Across the region, councils are looking at new ways to

help their local economies grow councils are looking at new ways to

decrease reliance on government funding. And, as Stuart Pollitt

reports, for some, it starts with There's a new player in the property

market. But it isn't the classic pinstripe—suited developer. Instead

it's your local council. Councillors like Paul Brant are getting used to

becoming landlords. Liverpool City Council spent £2 million buying

becoming landlords. Liverpool City is being converted into a luxury

hotel. £13 million was spent on ground. The City Council has a role

to step in where there is a market failure. At the moment, banks are

not lending and the financial sector is still reeling from the 2008

crash. In the good times, they would have stepped in and funded these

projects. We want to help make viable projects fly. We would have

struggled with this without help from the council. Project out with

the Southeast will need support from the council. Project out with

this for several years to come. The council has leant 25 million to

developers to resurrect the former waterfront. That is £50 for every

man, woman and child in Liverpool. developers are not putting in a

single penny. I hope it does not feel, but if it buzzed that losses

taken by the City Council. If this project is so fantastic, why are in

the private sector falling over themselves to fund this? The banks

have not yet started to release their purse strings. Opponents say

this amounts to authorities gambling and speculating the role is to

provide services, not sparkling developments like this one could be.

But councils say they have to get into property to get the local

economy moving. What will the stark space be in a couple of years' time?

This will be a restaurant. And that square. Shining a light on Oldham's

future. The old town hall is being turned into a £30 million leisure

and cinema complex funded by the council. We are acting as developer.

We are appointing our own contract tenants in. There are two council is

now emerging. Local authorities tenants in. There are two council is

are battling down the hatches and hoping the storm blows over. Then

there are ambitious councils like ours who are investing in drawing

the local economy and regenerating our towns and cities. But will

employing people to wear hard hats prove to be a decision made by wise

This is the kind of thing that you want to see more of? I think we

should be open—minded. Clearly if councils are getting involved in

these kind of projects, they're taking on a big responsibility and

have to tread quite carefully and be conscious of the risks they are

taking with public money. But there may be instances where regeneration

is not happening, perhaps because it is more difficult to raise money in

traditional financial markets, so this may be the best way to trigger

something to happen. They are trying to say that at a time when we are

being squeezed on public finances, this is a way for them to help local

areas develop. Public finances will be difficult for a long time. We

have a large deficit, even though it has gradually being reduced. Public

finances are not suddenly going has gradually being reduced. Public

get easier. Councils have to be creative. Everybody in the public

sector and public services has to look at ways to get better value and

deliver better services for the look at ways to get better value and

amount of money or less money. I don't think one size fits all. And

needs to be freed in —— freedom given to local authorities to solve

problems locally using the assets that they have. We need to encourage

local authorities to innovate. Not hamstring them by rules from the

district auditor because they need to look across public services were

local authorities take decisions that are good for residents and

local authorities take decisions example. Decisions need to be taken

in a pragmatic manner. If that is the vision, then seems to me to

allow those risks to be taken. The government is squeezing funding

allow those risks to be taken. The trying to balance the books, but

innovative. I think all public government, need to think how to

innovate more effectively and how to get better value for money. It is a

shame they have had to be pressured into it with spending cuts. This is

the difference between how drivers work in the private sector and the

public sector. The private sector has shareholders as their incentive.

Taxpayers don't get that kind of day—to—day influence. There needs to

be better ways of getting best value from local authorities. Where you

stand on the whole issue of spending cuts to local government? It is

stand on the whole issue of spending big concern from our councils. It is

very difficult. Like other parts of services, local government is having

to cope with less money and often statutory services as well. It is

tough. Some are doing a very good job. They should be commended for

that. It will not suddenly get easier. If they are being creative,

Time for the rest of the week's The trial of the former deputy

speaker will begin in March. He denies all charges against him.

Frank Field issued a warning on foodbanks. The MP for Birkenhead

says they're becoming part of the welfare state and has asked the

Prime Minister to investigate why people are so reliant on them. The

Mayor of London, Boris Johnson headed north west for conference. He

joined forces with the leader of campaign to keep more of the money

their cities raise in taxes. The Home Office has backed a first of a

kind project for Manchester clubbers Government came out in favour of a

major expansion of offshore wind farms. The Tynwald said it could

generate millions of pounds in freedom before heading back to

parliament on Tuesday. What do you think is going to be the political

battle that we will see in the next session of Parliament? What I would

like it to be is a battle over how we are going to create the next

especially in regions like the north—west. I would also want us to

iniquitous things like the bedroom tax. The battle will be over how we

make sure that an economic recovery which is just beginning continues

and is kept safe to be carried forward. Because we have a fixed

term Parliament no, really we will be into the beginning of an election

campaign. Thank you for coming in. We are getting into a discussion of

more affordable homes needed, but we have no time. Andrew, back to you.

Our next guest is no stranger to controversy, a former UKIP MEP he

recently lost his party's whip after a series of outbursts including

receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land' and joking that a group of UKIP

women who didn't clean behind their fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in

independent but remains a UKIP party member. Here's a flavour of recent

events in the political life of Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly

be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails

within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the

within 12 hours, only 47 were not that is out of touch. Everybody

knows me, a bit like the Marmite joke, they love me or they hate

knows me, a bit like the Marmite but I have always told me like it

is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the

French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you

I have had hundreds of e-mails, a joke any more? I am long in the

correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing

well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are

picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are

their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is

disgrace me. We are joined now with a suitable distance between us by

the independent MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

said this weekend that you have and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You

be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I

am just an ordinary bloke from the rugby club likes to tell it as it

is. I did not come into politics to rugby club likes to tell it as it

save my country from the clutches of the awful, evil... That is why I am

in politics, and that is why I member, and I will still be voting

ability... Do you accept that your conference? We were both born in

ability... Do you accept that your same year, we are too old to worry

about regrets. Let's look forward and see... Never mind the year I was

born, what is the answer to my country and intent to do the best I

independent for my country, and country and intent to do the best I

re-elected. They are the only game in town, the only party that will

get as out. Shouldn't you have been liability? You hijacked the party

conference. That is a matter of perception. We have heard nothing in

the last two years but it is a one-man band, a Nigel Farage party,

and I can make a joke at a fringe meeting and collapse the whole

thing. This doesn't say anything Andrew. It tells you about your

journalism - it is not about UKIP or me, it was the journalists' reaction

to a small joke at a meeting. And also Nigel Farage's reaction - is

myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable

force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has

been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June

and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement

about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote

getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you

what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip

of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,

and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect

that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?

Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?

have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to

have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David

Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been

gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of

it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown

machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in

Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things

in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You

in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in

in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't

of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment

love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as

an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as

European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could

do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in

Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the

fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance

to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I

am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey

take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for

joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do

not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because

they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason

for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and

more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even

in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like

Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked

Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they

got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they

kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist

long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his

website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he

photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does

photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin

was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It

sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be

sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a

sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP

sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the

European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is

right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what

this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to

electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as

electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the

three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the

probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.

The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making

The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that

he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and

councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need

Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need

ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.

David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.

David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women

among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?

He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?

week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way

businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics

in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet

table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,

whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before

the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before

women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before

have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before

big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we

need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in

need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing

need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than

need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she

need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime

need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I

think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I

will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to

will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin

college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,

but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult

brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger

roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger

told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary

level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot

James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.

What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,

like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important

intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George

Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls

you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this

now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to

promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female

in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with

women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember

that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally

amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without

amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to

change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?

personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,

personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?

personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend

personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will

change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference

season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband

season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?

I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the

latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you

wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the

living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are

booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but

booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on

about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband

making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under

their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And

you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that

will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are

people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still

forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being

noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition

than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he

in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of

references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of

Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,

living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the

same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would

be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their

conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they

could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it

generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I

generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.

What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the

one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,

they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you

they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework

that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones

after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also

pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go

ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will

ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,

and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.