Browse content similar to 20/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief. | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
coppers will be answering questions this | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West: Democracy Dibley | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
style ` so are government London, does the London assembly | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home | :01:19. | :01:33. | |
Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen | :01:43. | :01:50. | |
Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme, | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far, | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence | :02:19. | :02:29. | |
campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government. | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5% | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
government's White Paper on independence, two to be published | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister, | :05:01. | :05:02. | |
Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
government which is directly accountable to the people of | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which, | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with | :06:03. | :06:12. | |
him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity, | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage. | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? -- | :08:42. | :08:50. | |
existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
government would do, if elected A decision on what the first | :09:03. | :09:03. | |
government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election. | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the | :09:14. | :09:15. | |
electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So, | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence. | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
government, points out the opportunities that would be opening | :10:45. | :10:59. | |
up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He | :11:14. | :11:23. | |
made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond? | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let | :12:19. | :12:34. | |
off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices | :12:35. | :12:42. | |
are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
a credible government, making a credible case, very different to | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So, | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to | :13:40. | :13:49. | |
this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing, | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say, | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is... | :15:41. | :15:58. | |
Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview. | :16:48. | :17:01. | |
Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules. | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place. | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help | :19:49. | :20:00. | |
meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some | :20:07. | :20:16. | |
responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning | :20:17. | :20:26. | |
decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled | :20:59. | :21:11. | |
to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12, | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper | :21:47. | :21:59. | |
quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the | :22:16. | :22:24. | |
lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green | :22:28. | :22:36. | |
belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
referred back. the green belt. The matter has been | :22:49. | :22:59. | |
want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green | :23:07. | :23:06. | |
belt. Not to remember why we have the green | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one | :23:14. | :23:13. | |
another. Your conurbations bumping into one | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year. | :23:24. | :23:35. | |
provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting | :23:36. | :23:36. | |
there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot | :23:37. | :23:38. | |
there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where | :23:42. | :23:54. | |
the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000 | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet? | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson, | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We | :26:08. | :26:16. | |
had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that | :26:23. | :26:34. | |
we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there | :26:35. | :26:43. | |
you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my | :26:44. | :26:57. | |
personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I | :27:22. | :27:29. | |
went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you. | :27:30. | :27:38. | |
On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be | :27:39. | :27:40. | |
questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and | :27:51. | :27:52. | |
integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row. | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's | :27:58. | :28:05. | |
Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis. | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation. | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago. | :30:40. | :30:48. | |
Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much. | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson, | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive | :32:07. | :32:15. | |
about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior | :32:20. | :32:21. | |
officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies | :32:22. | :32:32. | |
being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a | :32:53. | :33:00. | |
handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting | :34:14. | :34:15. | |
issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been | :34:16. | :34:24. | |
misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there | :34:52. | :35:01. | |
if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t. | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely, | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution .. | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is | :36:43. | :36:51. | |
there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister, | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied. | :37:17. | :37:26. | |
That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as | :37:33. | :37:43. | |
a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
more competent and properly resourced Independent police | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead, | :38:28. | :38:41. | |
I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up: Democracy Dibley style, so our | :38:42. | :38:52. | |
government plans to promote parish councils worthwhile? I do not want | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
to see hard`working families paying a lot more in council tax and all we | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
get for it is an extra year of government. | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
The Labour leader of Manchester City Council Sir Richard Leese and blood | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
them for Southport John Pugh enjoy me today. Sir Richard, you had a | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
trip to China this week with George Osborne. | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
We were visiting their Beijing Construction and Engineering Group. | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
They will create 16,000 jobs in the Manchester region and the North | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
West. This will help us build bigger links with what is currently the | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
second biggest economy in the world. John, this is good news not just for | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
Manchester but the entire region. It is good to see this result for the | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
North West. It could have been a long trip. The | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
Labour Leader of Manchester City Council and the Chancellor of the | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
Exchequer both travelled to China. Political differences were put to | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
one side and the interest of the economy and the huge investment into | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
what has been called Airport City. As Euan Doak reports, it is the | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
latest place of foreign investment into the region. George Osborne has | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
been on a Chinese charm offensive, promoting the benefits of investing | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
in Britain. There is no better example of that | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
than the ?800 million of investment to Manchester creating 16,000 jobs, | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
it is one of the biggest development since the Olympic Park and the | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
Olympic Games. It is an investment that could bring | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
bigger deals in the future. The fact of having a Chinese partner means | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
that it begins the process of building relationships with China on | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
behalf of the airport and one of our major objectives is to achieve | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
direct flights between Manchester and China. The Chancellor sees | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
Chinese cash as vital to this region's economy and the hope that | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
any Chinese company looking to set up their UK headquarters will be | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
sold here in Manchester rather than London. | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
It is not just in China that businesses are looking to do deals. | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
There has been ?581 million of overseas investment over 17 deals in | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
the region. An increase of 21% over the same | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
period last year. Some of our most high`profile companies are now | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
foreign`owned. We have seen it in a number of countries involved in | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
accusations in the UK. I read only today that a Canadian | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
business picked up a North West company and a few months ago a | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
Swedish confectionery business came into the market. There are lots of | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
examples of other countries that are viewing the North West as an | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
attractive area to invest into. As high`growth economies around the | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
world mature, they become potential destinations for North West's goods | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
and services. Next year for Liverpool and the whole of the UK, | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
the international business is happening # international business | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
Bestival is happening. That will promote more growth. Politicians | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
could find their roles in promoting growth vital for the region's | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
recovery. We are joined in the studio by Peter | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
Wild, an expert in inward investment at Manchester's Metropolitan | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
University's business deal. Talk us through the detail of this | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
deal, Sir Richard. We are talking about a 4 million square foot plus | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
development around Manchester's Logistics and commercial space. It | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
needs to be near an airport and the deal that we have done last week | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
brings together Manchester airport, the Greater Manchester Pension Fund | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
and Carillion, one of our biggest engineering companies. They have | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
done the big schemes like King's Cross and elsewhere. And also the | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
Beijing Construction and Engineering Group, one of the three biggest | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
construction groups in China. One of the top 100 countries `` companies | :43:02. | :43:11. | |
and China. They have all taken out a joint`venture in the development of | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
Airport City. More importantly, it will create 16,000 jobs for | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
Manchester and the North West. They will end up with a 20% stake but | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
they are putting in half of the investment, is that correct? We will | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
not talk about the details as to who is investing what, we will stick to | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
the shares and the joint`venture but they will make a major contribution | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
to this company who will deliver Airport City. They will be investing | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
more than 20%? I will not talk about the details. There is commercial | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
sensitivity about who will be investing. What it does do is give | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
us far more confidence that not only will be deliver Airport City, we | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
will do it quickly. The figure is ?810. | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
Yes, that is correct. How did it come about that you got this major | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
Chinese investment? We went out to the market and out to chain and | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
sought partners for Airport City. They came as one of the bidders for | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
that and they came out as one of the people we really wanted to work with | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
and Airport City. Was there no interest from the City of London, | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
for example? There was a vast array of people wanting to do this. Well | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
we want to say Chinese investment, it is strange that London which has | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
huge resources is not investing into Manchester and the North West to the | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
same scale. Well, I do not think that is the case, however, it is | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
great to have a Chinese company investing in our Airport City. It is | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
also about creating direct links to China, internationalising trade and | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
having more Manchester companies trading with China and bringing | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
future investment. How important was the government in | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
securing this investment? Airport City has been supported by the | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
government and that it is one of a number of designated enterprise | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
zones. That makes bringing in business more attractive. We want to | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
bring in new international business and that designation has helped us | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
enormously in selling Airport City to potential partners and investors. | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
Do you think the government has done enough? The government have done a | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
great deal because they recognise that China has a huge amount of cash | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
to invest because of its trade surplus and there is no point of | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
ignoring that. The government are really appreciating what is needed | :45:50. | :45:51. | |
and doing the right thing and the fact we have a Chancellor of | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
Exchequer and important figures like Sir Richard out of the shows that | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
everyone recognises that. Having the Chancellor there was great and we | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
recognise that. We have had an 8 month delay in our relationship with | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
China because of the behaviour of the quality government, they have | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
not always been that helpful. For example, there was a diplomatic | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
falling out around 18 months ago connected to the visit of the Dalai | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
Lama to this country and that led to a bit of a freeze on relationships. | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
I am glad that it is healing now and for cities like Manchester we are | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
able to make progress. And, yes with the support of the Chancellor | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
of the check. Sangin mac human rights are very important to the | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
people of Thai debt as well and the government were correct to take that | :46:43. | :46:44. | |
stance. The Chinese Goodman should adjust to that. Peter, why are China | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
investing in Manchester? They see opportunities for the long`term | :46:53. | :47:02. | |
Around the world, Great Britain s football, creative media industries | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
are recognised. It is not just about advanced manufacturing. Foreign | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
countries C grade opportunity to invest and eyes. The North West is | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
proving to be more popular than other regions in England? That is | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
correct. We have a remarkable diversify economy now. We have | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
creative corridors and all sorts of things going on, it is a great place | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
to invest. I teach at Manchester Metropolitan University where we | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
have a lot of overseas students and outside of London it is basically | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
Manchester and Liverpool that they have heard of. Is there a downside? | :47:39. | :47:47. | |
Theoretically, yes. Things like the dense, office could be expatriates | :47:48. | :47:55. | |
did. These guys are not hot money. This is real long`term investment | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
and building strategic alliances with the stamp of their | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
government's approval. This is not hot money so we do not have to be | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
afraid. What does it say that there can be a struggle to get companies | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
to invest in these kind of projects within our own country? It says that | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
we have come to one of the toughest economic times and our country. It | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
is not just these huge glamour projects however, it is small and | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
medium`sized businesses that are getting a lot of investment from | :48:29. | :48:37. | |
these foreign companies. We have just worked with a major investment | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
bank who are booking for ten small to medium`size businesses to work | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
with. They want to extend this project for another four or five | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
years and it is the best business training I have come across. That is | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
American bankers looking at our entrepreneurs and giving them | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
backing. In terms of Airport City, how important the project as that | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
for the long`term? The infrastructure links are massive. It | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
is also about recognising that we have a role to play on the | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
international stage, which is great. It is also something, these projects | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
have a tremendous impact and that he can take confidence from. I have | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
worked with a lot of SMEs and you could sense these people are just | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
waiting for a few more little pieces of the jigsaw to be put together and | :49:27. | :49:33. | |
they are ready to go. We are on the verge of something quite interesting | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
if this can't continue. In terms of the long`term finance and the City | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
of London, we have had a problem in this country for some time around | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
than the catalysts who want a quick return, they want to be in and out | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
over the years. We need a long`term investors and that is something that | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
China is offering us. It is a strategic idea for the Chinese to | :50:00. | :50:10. | |
invest in the North West. We do not have a queue of local investors | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
most of it is coming from abroad. They have long`term commitments | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
which is good. Thank you for joining us, Peter. We are talking about | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
parish councils and you may have images of cleaning out the duck | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
pond. The smallest councils can be the | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
most responsive and the government would like to see more of them, | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
particularly in our large towns and cities. Cumbria, Lancashire and | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
Cheshire have more than 800 pound or parish councils. Cumbria's cover | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
around 66% of the population. Cheshire as 58% and Lancashire has | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
42%. That slide away and the big metropolitan areas. Merseyside has | :50:53. | :51:00. | |
just 23 councils doubling 13% of the population and an Greater Manchester | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
the are fewer at 15 parishes, representing 5% of the population. | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
Do we need more of them or are they another costly layer of bureaucracy? | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
Stuart Pollitt has been to Appleton, near Wigan, where they are | :51:14. | :51:22. | |
pondering just that issue. When you think parish councils, you may think | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
about the Vicar of deadly. 81, do we have any amendments? `` vicar of | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
deadly. Now the government wants more parish councils, although, not | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
quite like this one, so do these campaigners and Atherton think it | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
will help their library to stay open? Will it be able to protect | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
this piece of land? All of them think resurrecting their local | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
parish council will help to resurrect their town. Norman, you | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
want a parish council to rectify this cemetery. What difference would | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
it make? Sangin mac I think it would make local people address these | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
issues and without a town council, none of these issues would be looked | :52:11. | :52:21. | |
at. Any parish council is not different to other councils. They | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
would be another additional cost of ?10 per year. What do you get for | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
your Saudi tenner? The powers are limited but they are responsible for | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
things like Robert Hall is, war memorials and clocks. They can be | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
about development but do not have the power to stop them. It is not | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
worth the money, according to Stephen, who represents residents | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
who would fall under any new council. I do not want to see those | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
hard`working families in my ward paying a lot more for council tax | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
when all they get for it as an extra tier of government. Critics would | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
say another layer of bureaucracy is the last thing that is needed. | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
Sangin mac the only bureaucracy there is this for the town clerk. | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
All the rest of the voluntary councillors are working in the | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
treaties. Despite these powers, valve Houghton thanks people would | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
benefit. Sangin mac they would provide a voice for the town and the | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
shops. They would help us along the way. It was the 1970s and height of | :53:25. | :53:37. | |
northern Soul and Wigan and Atherton and many other areas lost their | :53:38. | :53:39. | |
parish councils. Now the government has promised to cut petitions needed | :53:40. | :53:47. | |
for a new council and to make councils decide within a year | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
whether a new parish council can be set up. They are hoping to start | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
hosting new parish council meetings here. Do the people want that? Would | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
you be happy to pay the extra money for that? I would not mind that It | :54:02. | :54:13. | |
is not much, is it? Wigan Council is consulting residents on the idea. | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
The last thing that people try to get a town council, people were not | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
interested. Very few people voted, this is dragging on because perhaps | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
there has not been that great deal of interest for people for a town | :54:28. | :54:36. | |
council. Sangin mac `` Sangin mac are people really that interested? | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
Will they be able to convert enough people, that is the question? | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
This is about the government pushing double`click Asian agenda. There are | :54:49. | :54:56. | |
problems of a divided responsibility and when things go wrong they do not | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
know whether it is the parish council, the borough council or the | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
county council who is responsible. There is another solution, I think. | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
We are looking at a situation and local government regardless of what | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
government is in place there is the emergence of social care and I | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
concede metropolitan councils losing social care responsibilities and | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
that creates the possibility of smaller local unitary councils. This | :55:19. | :55:27. | |
would make more residents happy That can be done as an alternative | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
but suggests for a parish council. At the moment, parish councils are | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
struggling to find people to fill all of their spots. What problem are | :55:38. | :55:45. | |
you trying to solve? Sometimes people think the representation may | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
be at a local level and that it speaks for the neighbourhood better | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
than the local councillor well. That's a problem people will | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
perceive, but you should be cable for what you wish for because a lot | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
of these arrangements are set up with initial views as but after a | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
while this Wayne 's. Do you like the idea of more parish councils? In | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
areas like Manchester that are put your areas, it can be difficult I | :56:15. | :56:23. | |
can see a case for town councillors or parish councils and an area like | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
Cumbria where if you are down and around a Barrow, you might see | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
Carlisle as being somewhat remote. They do not have any relevance like | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
a place like Manchester. They do not have relevance to a dense suburban | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
area where I think citizens can work through local community groups. Even | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
if it means that local people believe they have more of a direct | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
say and how local services will be delivered? I do not think it does | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
that, it gives them control over that ?10. I think local people want | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
to have an influence and local said and how their tax money is spent. | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
They want us to devise systems that will give them greater say. Green | :57:07. | :57:14. | |
belt issue is a good example. When decisions need to get made, they are | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
made by the higher council. Is it partly vested interest and | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
council's not wanting to give up power or finance? Not really, the | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
council raises its own funds and spends them and what it is allowed | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
to spend them on. The City Council will not lose any power whatsoever | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
but it would distract citizens from addressing the big issues that face | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
them. OK, neither of you very keen. Here's a round`up of the rest of the | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
league's news. Rochdale Council deferred a decision on a pay rise | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
for it chief executive. There will now be an inquiry into | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
local government pay after Simon ` at lead the process. Family and | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
friends of a teenager who took her life are campaigning for stricter | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
laws and cyber bullying. An inquest said comments on Facebook conjugated | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
to the death of a young girl. A Cheshire family are going to the | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
Court of Appeal over a row over that his son's benefits. Has benefits | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
were stopped before he died last year because he had spent more than | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
12 weeks in hospital. Nothing can change the fact that your child is | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
ill and in hospital and Michu by his side. Paul Brandt stepped down for | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
personal reasons after more than 20 gears and the council. | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
Veterans of the Royal Richard Fusiliers, many from this region, | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
marched on Parliament to protest against plans to scrap their second | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
Battalion. John, HS2, never far away from the | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
agenda, your leader Nick Clegg said you're not supporting high`speed | :59:03. | :59:09. | |
rail, is a betrayal of the North? We need it for capacity reasons but a | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
lot at Westminster believe high`speed rail does not solve the | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
problems between the North West and London. Getting to London is | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
relatively easy, it is cross region transport. It takes longer to get | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
from Leeds to Liverpool than it does to London and that does not help | :59:29. | :59:35. | |
create growth between the cities. Let us remind ourselves of the | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
Labour Party's position. This was Barbara Keeley speaking to as last | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
week. The Labour Party is rightly questioning the spiralling costs | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
which have gone from 42 billion to 50 billion and Ed Balls said at his | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
conference speech that there are no blank cheques for this project. Is | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
the Labour Party moving away from HS2? That is not what Barbara said. | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
It is clearly that it is necessary for costs to be kept under control. | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
It might be easily to get to London at the moment by real but will that | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
be the case in 20 years? With the rate we are growing and the number | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
of people using the railways, we will run out of capacity and we will | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
not have room for Manchester to London, Manchester to Leeds or even | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
commuter services from Atherton Sangin mac but you need to get | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
growth by being able to get from the likes of Liverpool two beats and | :00:39. | :00:47. | |
creating growth that way. If we do not increase capacity through | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
high`speed rail, our ability to connect will be diminished. Do you | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
think that high`speed rail will be more beneficial to Manchester than | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
it would be to the south and London? It is a win situation for both | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
regions. 70% of the economic benefit from High Speed 2 will be outside | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
London and the south`east, it will be the regions that benefit most. | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
There are people all over the North West at the moment to find it | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
difficult to get around the North West. Thank you both for joining us. | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
I will have to stop the discussion there. Join us next week. | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
to both of you for being my guests today. | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party. | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it, | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left, | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two | :05:11. | :05:12. | |
thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
quality education in order to realise their full potential in | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success. | :06:35. | :06:47. | |
Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn, | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats, | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no | :07:42. | :07:51. | |
political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not | :08:14. | :08:25. | |
from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth, | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising, | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming | :09:33. | :09:41. | |
right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me. | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who, | :10:44. | :10:52. | |
according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at | :10:59. | :11:06. | |
Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them. | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate | :12:06. | :12:14. | |
in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go | :12:52. | :13:02. | |
wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
which basis it can influence the result of the next general | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means | :13:46. | :13:55. | |
interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today. | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday. | :14:08. | :14:14. |