Browse content similar to 15/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio. | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed. | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun. | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
But the country now faces a de facto partition. | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything? | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum. | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty? | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Both sides join us to go head to head. | :01:02. | :01:09. | |
I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
that? And as World Cup sticker fever grips | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
even Westminster, we'll be asking In the North West Preston's City | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
Deal and the International Festival Fighting on ` | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
why this Henry Cooper is facing In London, why the minority vote one | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger | :01:31. | :01:31. | |
than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known | :01:32. | :01:42. | |
as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts | :02:22. | :02:31. | |
of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
partition a real possibility with The US is moving another | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf, | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who | :02:55. | :03:13. | |
are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence. | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims, | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006, | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started, | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their | :06:06. | :06:07. | |
position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq. | :06:24. | :06:32. | |
-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an | :07:08. | :07:19. | |
awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side. | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies. | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
have been never some time and they are also said to protect the | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall. | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card. | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003. | :08:31. | :08:32. | |
He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia. | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
This morning he entered the debate about what should be | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11 | :08:41. | :08:51. | |
happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia, | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side, | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
problem, but a problem that will affect us. | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown, | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman, | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK. | :09:34. | :09:46. | |
Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right. | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him | :10:06. | :10:14. | |
intervention. But one wishes someone other direction. The fact is, what | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
has been missing in western politics towards the Middle East throughout | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a drive to build an inclusive, | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
democratic centre which is secular and nonsectarian. That has been | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
missing amongst the threats of invasion Manon invasion, we have | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
just constantly neglected the diplomatic nation-building | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
dimensional this. I want to come onto what is happening on the | :10:41. | :10:42. | |
ground. onto what is happening on the | :10:43. | :12:24. | |
calling on the international community to help us with that. So | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance, | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires. | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us. | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark, | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key | :15:30. | :15:31. | |
thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two | :15:32. | :15:42. | |
groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns. | :15:48. | :15:55. | |
We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to | :16:27. | :16:28. | |
have to do something about it. The danger is that power will | :16:29. | :16:56. | |
spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a | :17:14. | :17:14. | |
countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the | :17:29. | :17:36. | |
political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
their differences or there will be problems. This provides that | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a | :17:52. | :18:00. | |
caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself. | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
for us. That is correct. This is extremely dangerous. The only way | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
forward is for these political groups to talk to each other and | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
find a compromise that allows the rates of cinemas and minorities in | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
Iraq to be protected within or the rates of cinemas and minorities in | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
Iraq to be protected with an autonomous federal-state. Any | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
support for the government must be premised on that. There is no | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
military solution for this which is in during -- there is no military | :18:46. | :19:02. | |
solution for this. There must be serious political negotiation, not | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim moderates, to form a more | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
representative government. This is the last chance for Iraq. I think we | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
are all saying that that is going to need to be some major western | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
leadership to make some big decisions here for the future of the | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
region. I am concerned that after Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
quite world-weary, quite world-weary. It does not seem to be | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
giving leadership. Certainly we are not seeing that in Europe. I am | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
deeply concerned that we are not going to take the leadership role | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
that needs to be taken. These are big issues. When Britain and France | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank | :19:58. | :19:59. | |
you very much. The danger is that power will | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once, | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
just getting heated. In places it's also | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
down-right nasty. When Scotland's best-selling author | :20:20. | :20:21. | |
announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
this week, she received Independence supporters online, | :20:24. | :20:25. | |
so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor | :20:26. | :20:33. | |
and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so, | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
and this week he criticised Conservative ministers | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio, | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you | :21:00. | :21:19. | |
first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do, | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack, | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site. | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works, | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of | :24:10. | :24:18. | |
four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling, | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself. | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning. | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter. | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often. | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear? | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats. | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs, | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I | :26:50. | :26:51. | |
refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve | :26:52. | :26:59. | |
answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that. | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising. | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280 | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are | :28:48. | :28:55. | |
taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal. | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
Now most of you probably missed last night's football match | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told. | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
and with speculation about the fitness of each political | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players. | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio. | :30:23. | :30:24. | |
This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football | :30:25. | :30:38. | |
stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon | :30:46. | :30:46. | |
and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
barbecue. And at Westminster they're | :30:50. | :30:51. | |
turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers. | :30:52. | :31:00. | |
We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet? | :31:06. | :31:05. | |
collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got | :31:06. | :31:16. | |
Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and | :31:25. | :31:25. | |
vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very | :31:26. | :31:27. | |
popular since she fell out with him out how | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any | :31:36. | :31:46. | |
swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? | :31:47. | :32:41. | |
Cabinet, the weakness of the polls. been successful. I haven't got Nick | :32:42. | :33:40. | |
Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far | :33:47. | :33:47. | |
better. There you are. Some local parties are holding | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner. | :33:55. | :34:06. | |
Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
collecting. These beauties are popping up | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
Westminster as I speak. I'm joined | :34:20. | :34:29. | |
by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers | :34:30. | :34:31. | |
throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the | :34:34. | :34:43. | |
break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick, | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old. | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa. | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff. | :35:38. | :35:47. | |
Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it -- | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
political Charente. piece of political Charente and they | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth, | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset, | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That | :37:36. | :37:44. | |
is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:55. | :37:56. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking about Ed Miliband's | :38:00. | :38:11. | |
Fighting on ` why Manchester's Henry Cooper is facing | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
95 Labour people on one sidd, you on the other side. How does it feel? | :38:18. | :38:37. | |
And joining me in the ring this week ` the | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
Employment Minister and Conservative MP for Wirral West, Esther LcVey. | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
And the former Environment Linister, the Labour MP for Oldham West | :38:45. | :38:46. | |
We have had this big political row this week centred around Liverpool | :38:47. | :38:58. | |
over Hillsborough. Ed Milib`nd was pictured with a copy of The Sun Was | :38:59. | :39:09. | |
that a mistake? Yes. It would have been better if he had not done it. A | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
coroner 's Court is sitting at this time. A lot of disturbing evidence | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
is coming out regarding the design of the ground, management bx the | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
police. It is exceedingly r`w on Merseyside. 96 people died. He has | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
apologised. He recognises it was a mistake. | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
Well the Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson led | :39:46. | :39:46. | |
the outcry, calling the Labour leader's actions "deeply shocking". | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
He also wrote on the Liverpool Labour Party's website: | :39:50. | :39:51. | |
"This is just another example of how out of touch the politicians | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
in their ivory towers are from the lives of ordinary people. | :39:55. | :39:56. | |
It begs the question ` were the comments he made | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
after the Hillsborough panel report sincere or just sound bites?" | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
Ed Miliband has apologised. I think it all happened rather quickly. This | :40:06. | :40:30. | |
was about the World Cup in Brazil. If it had been another newspaper no | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
one would have uttered a word. Esther McVey, you are in Merseyside | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
MP. David Cameron was also photographed with The Sun. Should he | :40:43. | :40:52. | |
also apologise West of Mac `` also apologise? It is very sensitive If | :40:53. | :41:07. | |
you are on Merseyside you know how sensitive that issue is. People on | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
Merseyside have not what th`t newspaper since. The Labour Party | :41:13. | :41:21. | |
have always tried to court The Sun. Should David Cameron also | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
apologise? He has not thought so. He does not feel that he needs to. It | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
was the Conservative Ministdr Jeremy Hunt who said that these newspapers | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
should be looked at. It is the Conservative Party that has allowed | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
the inquest to go ahead. Labour went to the other end of the world, | :41:48. | :41:56. | |
literally, to court Rupert Lurdoch. You were supposedly to beathng | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
during the 25th anniversary commemorations. `` tweetimg cheering | :42:01. | :42:16. | |
the 25th anniversary commemorations. | :42:17. | :42:24. | |
Well less controversially Liverpool's International Fdstival | :42:25. | :42:26. | |
for Business opened this wedk, promoting the best | :42:27. | :42:28. | |
And in Preston work's startdd on ?400 million worth of new roads and | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
Our reporter Chris Rider's been asking if the regional economy's | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
Open for business, the backing of the Government | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
The Prime Minister in Liverpool to launch the | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
Part of rebalancing the economy is Westminster politicians givhng far | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
more attention and, where possible, powers to our great cities. | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
The day after, Lord Heseltine pointing in the right direction | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
for Preston City Deal which will see millions of pounds of investment | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
What people have now realisdd in government is that in London | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
They are determined to try and get local people who live | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
in places, work in them, and understand them, to takd bigger | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
I don't think everybody is going to be as excited as Michael Heseltine | :43:27. | :43:37. | |
and some of the people in County Hall. | :43:38. | :43:39. | |
Lots of communities know th`t this is an awful lot of concrete that is | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
being poured on to the countryside for supposed environmental benefits. | :43:44. | :43:45. | |
But many of the businesses who came to County Hall to hear from Lord | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
Heseltine are on board, and he's won praise from his political opponents. | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
To have Lord Heseltine here has been stupendous because he is | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
the father of regeneration projects over many decades. | :43:55. | :43:56. | |
For him to give us the benefit of his advice is amazing. | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
It was back in 1981 when Lord Heseltine came to Liverpool to | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
help regenerate the place in the wake of the Toxteth riots, | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
beginning a long relationshhp with the city which remains todax. | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
And this international event lasting 50 days makes it clear the | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
It is wonderful to have the world's largest business event happdning | :44:17. | :44:26. | |
It is a concrete example of rebalancing Britain. | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
To sit in Liverpool and takd part in the | :44:34. | :44:35. | |
International Festival Of Btsiness and to remember the Liverpool | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
Organisers hope it will provide the catalyst for further investment | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
The Government seems to be trying to boost to the private sector? Is that | :44:47. | :45:08. | |
the right approach? I did not think austerity was the correct approach | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
six years ago. In a recession there is not much private investmdnt. You | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
need public investments to promote growth in the first instancd. | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
Infrastructure, house`buildhng, the foundation of a low carbon dconomy. | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
But it is recovery. After shx years, that is to be welcomdd. The | :45:29. | :45:38. | |
problem is the assurance of sustainability bash will it last? It | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
is too dependent on consumer debt. And the basis of demand, wage levels | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
at 6% down, productivity ond of the worst in OECD, business invdstment | :45:54. | :46:04. | |
still below the pre`trash ldvel it is difficult to see if it is | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
lasting. It is a recovery for the well off, not for the great majority | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
of the population. The numbdr of jobs that are being created are | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
overwhelmingly self`employmdnt. That is not true. We have had ovdr 2 | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
million private jobs created. The country was nearly bankrupt. It was | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
the worst recession in history. We had to have proper growth. We had to | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
stabilise the economy. That is what we have done. We have seen no extra | :46:40. | :46:48. | |
people in work. That is now across all sectors, across all parts of the | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
country, and across all ages. Youth unemployment has come down for nine | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
consecutive month. It is 100,00 fewer youth unemployed than in 010. | :46:58. | :47:05. | |
It has been a tough time, btt everybody is now saying we `re the | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
fastest developing countries in the developed world. We are now showing | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
the highest rate of employmdnt in the G7. We are the fastest | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
developing country in the ddveloped world. Whether it is manufacturing, | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
construction, education, agriculture, everybody says that it | :47:27. | :47:43. | |
is. Whoever you care to mention Why is the level of investment 20% below | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
what it was in 2008? People with money do not believe it will last. | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
In Europe you have and the plumbers levels of 50%. It is a lot slower | :47:55. | :48:02. | |
here. You are saying it was tough, it was painful, but it is p`ying | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
off. It will not pay off if we get a brief recovery. It is the longest | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
recession since 1870. The b`sis by which you get demand in futtre are | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
not there. Wage levels are not going up. They are 6% down in real terms. | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
But everybody is looking to the UK now. The key is investment. | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
Investment levels in the prhvate sector are extremely pure. When you | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
see the Government pushing through with things like the City Ddal, that | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
is what they are trying to do. I am sure they are trying. Can I give you | :48:47. | :48:54. | |
an international perspectivd on this? People are looking to how the | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
UK has managed to do this. @merica, Europe and Canada is looking. We | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
have got the fastest rate of employment in the G7. We ard now the | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
fastest developing economy hn the developed world. Look at our | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
exports. We have got car manufacturing a net export rather | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
than a net import. These thhngs were not happening under Labour. Look at | :49:18. | :49:28. | |
the OECD standards. It was tough. Whether it was a financial global | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
crash, or whether it was Labour we have turned the corner. You have | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
mentioned exports. The export situation is a disaster. In every | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
year and your Government exports have been in deficit by ?100 billion | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
per year. It is a disastrous situation. The giant recesshon that | :49:50. | :49:58. | |
started in 2007, look at manufacturing and constructhon, | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
fundamentally things have changed. 1.7 more that `` 1.7 million more | :50:05. | :50:15. | |
people are employed. And employment is 6.6% nationally. It is 6.6% | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
nationally. The 7.6% in this region. All regions are different. | :50:19. | :50:27. | |
In the Southeast and the East Midlands, they are growing `t a | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
faster rate than what we have seen in this region. But more people are | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
employed now than in 2000 and ten. Youth unemployment has falldn. What | :50:37. | :50:48. | |
would Labour do differently? I hope we would promote growth. At the | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
present moment, on a sustainable basis, that is not there. 2.3 | :50:54. | :51:01. | |
million people are still Ann Clwyd. That is very high. `` peopld are | :51:02. | :51:10. | |
still out of work. The great majority of new jobs are low paid, | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
insecure, and on zero hours contracts. That is not accurate The | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
majority of the jobs are full`time. Half a century ago, the heavyweight | :51:21. | :51:31. | |
champion of the world, Casshus Clay, was knocked to the canvas bx a left | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
hook from a certain Henry Cooper. Well that Henry Cooper went on to | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
lose, but now a political n`mesake Councillor Henry Cooper is | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
the only politician left ch`llenging They say opposition's | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
a lonely business. Well it is if you're the | :51:45. | :51:59. | |
opposition on Manchester Cotncil. Following last month's council | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
elections Labour now holds 85 of the 96 seats on Manchester council. | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
Henry is the only opposition. By the way even he was elected as ` Labour | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
councillor. Henry, this is why you are now an opposition counchllor. | :52:15. | :52:22. | |
Tell us what happened. Labour councillor for 21 ye`rs up | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
until 2012.I had no alternative but to leave the Labour Party and fight | :52:25. | :52:33. | |
on my own. Then the council backed plans for | :52:34. | :52:46. | |
FC United to build this new Now Henry really is on his own after | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
every Lib Dem opposition cotncillor There seems to be an autonolous | :52:50. | :53:42. | |
regional culture. The grip that Labour have got in metropolhtan | :53:43. | :53:43. | |
areas appears to be total. this impact negatively on the | :53:44. | :54:51. | |
population. But everyday holding to account, that is much harder. | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
The last non`Labour politichan left standing says: | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
Next year possibly 96 Labour. It does not mean they wanted a 1`party | :55:03. | :55:13. | |
state in Manchester. While that prospect exercises opponents, those | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
in charge are relaxed that ht is good for the people of this city. | :55:19. | :55:29. | |
And we're joined from London by Richard Berry from Democrathc Audit, | :55:30. | :55:31. | |
which carries out research hnto the state of British democr`cy. | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
Manchester seems to be well`run What the problem? Some of the | :55:35. | :55:44. | |
comparisons to North Korea `nd China are exaggerated. But there hs a | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
problem. It is bad for democracy when there is only one partx in | :55:50. | :55:59. | |
control. The public needs to see alternative voices in the process. | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
It has been said that the electorate has a choice, and they have chosen | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
Labour. In a sense that is true but the electoral system is called first | :56:13. | :56:21. | |
past the post. That is an artificial system. It produces exagger`ted | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
results for the winning party. Labour did not get 100% of the vote | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
in Manchester, but it has ndarly 100% of the seats on the cotncil. | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
But what problem will you experience in Manchester? Every political party | :56:37. | :56:45. | |
will have choices. There max be a tendency for choices to be lade | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
behind closed doors. Decisions which could be debated in public, in the | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
council chamber, can actually be made by the political group without | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
public scrutiny. What is thd solution to this? The soluthon has | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
to be a more proportional electoral system. There is one in Scotland. | :57:04. | :57:17. | |
That would produce fever resultss. `` that would produce more `ccurate | :57:18. | :57:26. | |
results. Esther McVey, Wirral council is a | :57:27. | :57:33. | |
conservative council, but that does not mean it is better run, but it | :57:34. | :57:54. | |
best `` better run, does it? You need people who can reach ott across | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
the board and see different angles. I do not see that in some areas | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
Could the Government bring `bout reform? What you have got to do | :58:03. | :58:15. | |
which I did in one of my wards, is that we worked harder, we solved the | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
problems of people, and we got extra seats. It is up to us to take | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
responsibility and reflect the views of the people. What do you lake of | :58:28. | :58:36. | |
this more polarised world? Ht shows how unpopular the Conservathves and | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
the Liberal Democrats are in the North. But accountability is | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
extremely important. Where xou get between 90% and 100% of 1`p`rty it | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
becomes a serious issue. Thdre are two ways to deal with it without | :58:52. | :58:59. | |
proportional representation. It is the responsibility of peopld in the | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
governing party to take isste on things they believe the grotp may | :59:06. | :59:12. | |
not be getting right. The lhne between rebellion and sycophancy is | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
a narrow one. And the other way is the media. Where you have openness | :59:19. | :59:27. | |
and transparency, ideally you need the governing group to take account | :59:28. | :59:37. | |
of different views. Make sure everybody goes out to vote. | :59:38. | :59:45. | |
What else has been going on in the region's politics? | :59:46. | :59:47. | |
Local MPs voiced concerns about management at the | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
Morecambe Bay NHS Trust aftdr a second director resigned `head of | :59:53. | :59:55. | |
All the indications are that this does not say favourable things about | :59:56. | :00:09. | |
The reasons behind the decision not to prosecute the former Rochdale MP | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
Cyril Smith over offences against children are to be made public. | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
The CPS's refusal to releasd the files to | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
a newspaper has been overturned by the Information Rights Tribunal. | :00:20. | :00:21. | |
Going underground ` Cheshire East Council is looking | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
for investors into a scheme to use thermal energy to heat homes. | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
Dame Vivienne Westwood was hn Manchester for a debate on fracking. | :00:27. | :00:28. | |
The fashioner designer has previously protested in Sussex | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
and wants more independent research and discussion. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
It is crucial and yet the ptblic are not informed. | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
And Bootle MP Joe Benton announced that he'll retire | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
His decision comes after thd local Labour Party voted to open tp the | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
Just time to thank my guests ` Esther McVey and Michael Me`cher. | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
For now, I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London. | :01:00. | :01:11. | |
There are big changes afoot in the EU following last month's | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
European elections, not least who'll get the top job | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
But behind the scenes the parties have | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
also been jockeying for position as they try to form the big groups that | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
And UKIP seems to have been struggling to keep its influence | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
Here's Adam to explain how it all works. | :01:28. | :01:36. | |
If you want your party to be a big cheese in the European Parliament, | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
you need to form a political group. By doing this, the party gets more | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
money, more positions on committees and even more speaking rights in the | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
chamber. But the parliament's rules are strict. And to form a group you | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
need a group of 25 MPs from at least seven different countries. For UKIP, | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
the number of MEPs will not be a problem because they already have 24 | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
of their own, but the different nationalities are more of a | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
challenge. Nigel Farage was not helped by the Tories stealing - | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
stealing his former Danish and Finnish allies, and the pen pinching | :02:14. | :02:22. | |
his Italian charms. Nigel needs a new charm and fast. He has already | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
signed up Lithuania's order and justice, a free citizen from Prague, | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
and the Dutchman from the reformed political party. The big signing was | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
the 17 members of the Italian Beppe Griego's 5-star movement, but it | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
leaves UKIP short of two more international powers, and with the | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
clock ticking, it looks like his hopes resting on the Swedish | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
Democrats and the Polish new right Congress. They both make their | :02:52. | :02:52. | |
decisions next week. What is the latest? UKIP have enough | :02:53. | :03:04. | |
MEPs with their pals, but they need seven countries, as I understand it. | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
They are not there yet. They are wrapped five countries and need | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
another two. UKIP are being quite buoyant and say they will be meeting | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
MEPs from five countries next week and are pretty confident they will | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
get those countries, but as Adam was saying, the problem UKIP have had is | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
that the Conservatives have nicked two of the parties. That is why they | :03:25. | :03:33. | |
have been struggling, but they say they are confident they will do it. | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
Meanwhile, the Tories new best friends are the German Eurosceptic | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
party, which has put Mrs Merkel s nose out of joint, but we don't | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
quite know whether she really cares or not. I think Cameron has played | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
his hand badly since he committed to pulling out of the EBP. And he | :03:54. | :04:01. | |
should be in there with Angela Merkel and if he needs to make a | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
major renegotiation, he needs to have the Germans onside. Instead | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
there is a breakaway party and its like supporting UKIP. His party are | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
supporting her worst enemy. It certainly causing him a lot of | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
problems, and undermines his negotiating position, but isn't | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
there an honesty that the centre-right group is explicitly | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Federalist, and the Tories are anything but, so they came out, and | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
Labour are in the Socialist group, which is explicitly Federalist, and | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
they are not Federalist either. If you want support and influence in | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
Europe, you have to trade, and he hasn't done this well. The whole | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
business with who will be the next president, he needs Angela Merkel's | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
support. Without that, it won't happen. He should have been trading | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
behind-the-scenes, but he has exposed himself in public, and if he | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere. | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
head of the European commission what chance do you have of | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs | :05:32. | :05:39. | |
dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm. | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe, | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this. | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain, | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it. | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
On this one, he called it wrong It's a sign of the rather the bridal | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised. | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it. | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he | :09:17. | :09:18. | |
doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes, | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green. | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose I | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said. | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on, | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush | :13:09. | :13:09. | |
you. We are running out of time The Daily Politics will be back | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions | :13:17. | :13:18. | |
secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base | :13:22. | :13:52. | |
of medieval England. Charles' ceiling was a piece | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
of breathtaking arrogance. | :13:59. | :14:05. |