Browse content similar to 02/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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This programme contains some flashing images. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
We're live from sunny Birmingham on day one of | :00:07. | :00:08. | |
the Conservative Party Conference, where, three months after Britain | :00:09. | :00:10. | |
voted to leave the European Union, the Prime Minister has given | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
us her first inkling of how she plans to do it. | :00:13. | :00:49. | |
Morning, folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Theresa May says she will trigger Article 50, starting the two year | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
process of negotiations that will culminate in Britain | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
leaving the EU, before the end of March next year. | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
So Brexit by Easter 2019 - but what kind of relationship | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
A Great Repeal Bill will also be voted on next Spring, | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
but won't be enacted until we leave, at which point EU laws will be | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
And coming up here, an agreement to resolve a bitterly | :01:17. | :01:32. | |
disputed parade is hailed as a watershed moment. | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
Jeffrey Donaldson of the DUP and Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
will join me in studio with their thoughts. | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
will join me in studio defined by the conservatism of the | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
Notting Hill set, what now? We explore the potential rise of Sidcup | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
So far no Great Repeal Act to get rid of the Sunday Politics Panel - | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
Steve Richards, Rachel Sylvester and Tom Newton Dunn. | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
It's 100 days since we voted to leave the EU and the clamour has | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
grown for the Government to tell us what Brexit would look like. | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
This morning, as the Tory faithful gather in Birmingham, | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
we still don't expect to be told what Brexit means but we do know | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
more about the timetable and the extrication process. | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
A Bill will go before parliament this spring to repeal the 1972 | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
European Communities Act, which legalised our membership | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
But it won't actually come into force until we leave. | :02:25. | :02:34. | |
Theresa May also told the Andrew Marr Show that | :02:35. | :02:36. | |
Article 50 would be invoked by March of next year - | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
starting the two year process of renegotiation before we leave. | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
I have been saying we would not trigger it before the end of this | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
year, so that we get confirmation in place. I will be saying in my speech | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
today that we will trigger before the end of March next year. The | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
remaining members of the EU have to decide what the process of | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
negotiation is. I hope, and I will be saying to them, that now they | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
know what the time is going to be, it is not an exact date, but they | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
know it will be the first quarter of next year, that we will be able to | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
have some preparatory work so that once the trigger comes we have a | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
smoother process of negotiation. Theresa May, on this channel, just | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
over an hour ago. What do you make of it? Saggy as you said, we know | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
more about when but we don't know what Brexit is going to be. We don't | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
know how the relationship will work out, we don't know what the Prime | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
Minister's negotiation position will be, we haven't worked out anything | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
about the free market access and freedom of movement. All of the | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
substance. It is a significant announcement but we don't actually | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
know anything really big about what our lives are going to be like in | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
future. Is there a risk from the Prime Minister? Is there a risk | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
putting this before Parliament to repeal the 1972 Communities Act? | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
Undoubtedly. Anything you put before the House of Commons or the House of | :04:03. | :04:10. | |
Lords, where there is no Tory majority, let alone a Brexit | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
majority, risks getting amended. She runs the risk. There is also a risk | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
of not saying this, not having the greater appeal, which is actually a | :04:19. | :04:27. | |
great repeal act, when is being repealed, but she needed to throw | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
the Tory right red meat, and they got it this morning. There is always | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
the potential of a constitutional crisis. If the Lords were to dig in | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
over this, or even digging over Article 50, demand a vote on that, | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
lawyers are arguing whether you need it or not, it may not be plain | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
sailing when you have a majority of 12? It definitely isn't going to be | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
with a majority of 12. The scope for constitutional crisis is many. | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
Clashes with the Lords, clashes with the Commons, Scotland is still there | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
in the background allows a significant factor. It will always | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
be there, but perhaps in a different context. I don't think this will be | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
the trigger for a constitutional crisis. You have to admire the | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
elegant choreography. I was told ages ago that she knew she could not | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
keep carry on saying Brexit means Brexit, there will have to be new | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
lines. This is beautiful. We kind of knew that Article 50 was going to be | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
triggered early in next year. David Davis even said that. It was a fair | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
bet it would be before Easter. They couldn't spend the next two years | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
negotiating Brexit and refocusing the entire legislative programme to | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
spend the next two years rejigging the mountain of legislation we are | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
affected with. They have turned a logistical, unavoidable | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
inevitability into a sense of momentum this weekend. Very clever | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
presentation. There are going to be huge crises to come over this. | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
Picking off the 1972 Act, putting it all into British law and | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
legislation, rather than dependent on Europe, that is what the | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
Brexiteers wanted. To that extent, she has thrown them a bit of red | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
meat today? Yes, but we still don't know what Brexit is going to be. But | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
a bit of red meat keeps you going for a while. Maybe get them through | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
to lunch time. Today or tomorrow? Really just today. The tactic is to | :06:35. | :06:42. | |
get some stuff about Brexit out, get them talking about that and then | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
move onto agenda she wants, domestic. What do you think? Good | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
luck with that! Are you reading my script coming up? It was on the | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
autocue, I'm sorry! Clearly, she is accessed about not making his | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
premiership all about Brexit. It will be, but she is desperate. She | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
needs to define herself away from Brexit, who is Theresa May, what did | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
she really believe? We have heard whispers, but the next few days as a | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
chance to do that. The fringe, Liam Fox is talking at two fringes. Two | :07:17. | :07:26. | |
opportunities for a story. David Davis as well. These two men of | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
great talent and potentially great ego, they will not be able to stop | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
themselves having feelings heard. And Boris. Boris who? I have not | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
seen him on the fringes. Fringe meetings have been quite dull at | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
party conferences recently. Because of this issue, I think people are | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
going to pack them out. That is where words might be said, explosive | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
words. We live for fringe meetings! The PM hopes her announcement | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
will deal with Brexit on day one so the conference can get on to talk | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
about other matters. But as you can see from this not | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
so slim tome - the conference guide- there are plenty of other issues | :08:01. | :08:10. | |
to talk, maybe even argue about. Our Ellie caught up with two Tory | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
MPs from different sides of the party before they set off, | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
to see what they think lies in store # Just can't wait to | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
get on the road again # The life I love is making | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
music with my friends # And I can't wait to get | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
on the road again...# Do you actually enjoy going | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
to conference? It's not as much fun | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
as when you're not an MP, because now people want to talk | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
to you and everybody But do you make contacts, | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
do you network? Do think Theresa May gets | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
nervous about conference, I think if you are performing | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
on a big stage, whoever you are, you ought to have a few | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
nerves jangling around. But she's a polished performer, | :09:03. | :09:04. | |
I'm sure she'll know Theresa May will also know she has | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
several contentious issues she needs It is perhaps not surprising, | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
then, that day one of We're pretty well balanced | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
between those of us like myself, representing constituencies | :09:17. | :09:26. | |
with really high levels of research, science | :09:27. | :09:27. | |
and agriculture, who will be very keen, but probably pragmatically | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
understanding that we are not going to hear everything | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
tomorrow, and the rest of the party who are just | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
desperate for information. If they don't think the deal | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
is going in the right way, they will want to say | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
something about it. I think the time frame | :09:44. | :09:44. | |
is pretty clear. We are going to trigger Article 50 | :09:45. | :09:46. | |
at some point relatively That means we will get | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
the negotiations done a good year The rest is going to be | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
important meat on the bones. But, in terms of the core strategy, | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
Theresa May goes into this So, a unified front, | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
albeit perhaps fragile. But then there is the question | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
of grammar schools. Depends whether we hear | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
more about it. You know, the concept | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
in its one-dimensional sense, you can't have a problem | :10:10. | :10:11. | |
with that, can you? Giving parents choice, | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
giving bright children the chance But, for me, for many of us, | :10:17. | :10:18. | |
it has to be a package Our teachers are pretty | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
stressed and overworked I'm not actually sure | :10:23. | :10:24. | |
this is the right time. I would rather see emphasis | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
being put on fairer funding. Constituencies like mine have been | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
underfunded for decades. If you go into politics | :10:32. | :10:33. | |
and government scared of your own shadow, unprepared to do | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
anything bold or brave, I think there is no risk-free | :10:36. | :10:37. | |
option. Of course, people have different | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
views on grammar schools and it is a totemic political | :10:43. | :10:44. | |
issue as well. But I think if you read the green | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
paper, the Prime Minister has set out a very sensible, | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
carefully calibrated approach, not just to grammar | :10:51. | :10:52. | |
schools but the wider The new PM also faces big strategic | :10:53. | :10:53. | |
decisions on expensive projects like airport expansion, | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
an area even her Cabinet With all these big infrastructure | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
projects, HS2, Heathrow, issues around fracking, | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
nuclear as well, I think we have got to take the right decisions | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
for the country, make sure Britain Each one of those is | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
thorny in its own right. But what I think is most important | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
is we look at it very carefully, That is where we all start to see | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
the metal in Theresa, Whilst on the one hand, | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
having a Prime Minister - nobody could have been more | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
delighted than me that we managed to cut the tax credits changes - | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
but having a Prime Minister that sticks to her guns, | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
I'm not for U-turning, How confident are you, | :11:40. | :11:41. | |
going to this conference, that it is all going to be sorted | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
and you are going to be Well, people predicted an economic | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
nosedive after the referendum. People said there would | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
be political chaos. Actually, the economy | :11:54. | :11:55. | |
has proved resilient. I think there is a sense of resolve | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
on all sides of the party on all of these different issues | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
to get behind this Prime Minister Last year, you got into a bit | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
of trouble, being quite vocal Some suggestion you weren't | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
a proper conservative. I think I am absolutely | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
a proper conservative. I think my party needed reminding | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
what conservative was. Our job is to help people who need | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
a leg up. Her opening speech in Downing Street | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
told me she absolutely is. Like all of these things, | :12:27. | :12:35. | |
we will hear more about this week. # And I can't wait to get on the | :12:36. | :12:37. | |
road again. # And we're joined now | :12:38. | :12:48. | |
by the Transport Secretary, who was a leading Leave campaigner, | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
Chris Grayling. Welcome back to the programme. The | :12:51. | :13:00. | |
great repeal act, what exactly does it repeal? It repeal the 1972 | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
European Communities Act. It means the European Court of Justice no | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
longer has sway in the United Kingdom. It means the European | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
Commission and Parliament no longer make laws for us. As of today, in | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
our system, European law is supreme over UK law, and it repeal that. | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
Except what it does is it consolidates all existing European | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
legislation into British law. It would be more accurate to call it | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
the great Consolidation act? Is This is what I argued for during the | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
League campaign. The remaining campaign said you could not do it, | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
it will take years, it will be a disaster. My response then is what | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
it is now, the best way to do it is to consolidate existing legislation, | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
much of which we will want to keep, the environmental measures, the | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
workers' rights measures, what we want to do is to make sure we can | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
get certainty before the event and after the event, for workers, | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
businesses, but what the legal position will be. Over time, we have | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
the freedom, outside the European Union, free from the control of the | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
European Court, to change our legal system in the way that we want. It | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
does mean we would leave the EU with all of this EU law still part of | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
British law. Now, what would you wish to change in the aftermath? | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
There is a whole variety of different things we will be looking | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
at a change. For example, if you want a practical one, it is unlikely | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
that after we have left the European Union we will still be paying child | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
benefits to children that have never even entered the United Kingdom. | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
That is the kind of thing we will be free to change after we have left. | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
What else? Much of it we will want to keep, environmental measures, not | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
all that has been done in the European Union for 40 years has been | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
bad for Britain. How long will it take to pick all of this after we | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
leave? Will be down to the Government to decide... Ten years? | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
20 years? It will take it as long as we choose. What is right and proper | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
is that on the day after there is a degree of certainty for businesses. | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
It would not be fair for a company to be operating under a set of | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
rules, for there to be a cliff edge where they do not know what is going | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
to happen the day after. Let's make it an evolution, not a revolution. A | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
lot of the things you have to agree to enter negotiations mean it will | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
have to remain law even after we leave? This clearly the case that if | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
a business in this country is continuing to sell a product in the | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
European Union, it will have to make the standards of the European Union. | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
Those rules will apply. That is the same if we're selling to the United | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
States, the rules of the United States would apply to a business | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
planning to sell a product there. What happens if you lose the vote? | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
It is inconceivable that Parliament can look at the view of the British | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
public and ignore it. Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the | :15:58. | :15:59. | |
referendum to take place in the first place, the people have given a | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
mandate and I am certain Parliament will fulfil it. | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
What would happen? You have a majority of only 12 and there was a | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
majority for remain in the Commons and there is a large majority in the | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
house of lords. If the parliament does not seamlessly agree for what | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
you call the great repeal act, what would happen? Both houses are full | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
of Democrats and they will respect the will of the people. But we could | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
be faced with a constitutional crisis? We have taken the decision | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
to leave and parliament voted for the referendum and it is | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
inconceivable that Parliament would not allow that process to go | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
forward. If the inconceivable happen, you'd have to cores and -- | :16:53. | :17:01. | |
call an election. Inconceivable is a bit of a stretch. Plenty of voices, | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
particularly in the House of Lords, would use this as a an opportunity | :17:09. | :17:20. | |
to thwart you. And I don't think the House of Lords will turn around and | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
say we should not fulfil that. There may be dissenting voices but they | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
will view it as a democratic mandate that we have to fulfil. Has your | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
party don soundings in the Commons to make sure you can get this | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
through? I've not been involved in that discussion but parliament will | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
respond to the will of the people. That's the way this country works. | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
That's what you hope. We shall see how it works. We've been told by the | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
Prime Minister this morning that article 50 will be triggered by the | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
end of March. That means that we are out by Easter 2019. Can you confirm | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
that those British members of the European Parliament currently in | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
Strasberg, there will be no more for them after this. If we have left by | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
the end of the two-year period. It is technically possible to extend | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
it. After that period, there wouldn't be EP is after that point | :18:24. | :18:38. | |
in 2019. -- MEPs. For Brexit to mean Brexit, the famous phrase, which is | :18:39. | :18:47. | |
basically tautology. It would mean the freedom to have our own trade | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
laws. It would mean the ability to do that? You are leading me to | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
answer questions about the specific legal structures. It means our own | :19:01. | :19:10. | |
free-trade deals? Correct. It would mean we are no longer subject to the | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
rules of the European Court of Justice. Also correct. And we would | :19:17. | :19:27. | |
have whatever control we desire over immigration? The Prime Minister has | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
been clear that we need to control the flow of immigration into the | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
country. Any of these counts as out from being a member of the single | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
market. So can we agree that there is no way we can remain a member of | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
the single market? There is no such thing as a member of the single | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
market. There are a number of different trading agreements within | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
the EU. We are effectively a member of the single market now but we | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
can't be after this. The question you have asked me, do we want to be | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
Norway, Switzerland, Canada when it comes to trading arrangements? We | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
want to be the United Kingdom. We are the biggest customer of German | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
car-makers, French farmers... I don't want to have the referendum | :20:18. | :20:25. | |
fight again. It seems as black as black or as White is white that if | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
you want all of that we cannot be a member, we can have access on terms | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
yet to be agreed, we will have a relationship, but why cannot you say | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
that we won't be a member in the way that we are currently a member of | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
the single market? We won't be a member of the European Union but | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
there is no such thing as a member of the single market. There is no | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
single market in services, for example. There is but it is not as | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
developed as goods. I believe we will end up with a trading | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
partnership with the European Union on terms to be agreed that will work | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
for both of us. Access but not membership. You cannot be a fully | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
paid-up member of the single market without the European Court of | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
Justice ruling on it and you don't want that. I don't understand your | :21:20. | :21:29. | |
problem. Your pre-merging -- prejudging the outcome of | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
negotiations. We want the best possible trading arrangements with | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
European neighbours and that is what we will work towards. Where | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
different to the other countries that have been involved in these | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
negotiations before. We have heard all that before in the referendum | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
and we wanted some clarity on what it would mean. Transport, when will | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
you give is the decision on runway expansion? I'm not going to set a | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
date today. I've spent the summer looking at the three different | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
options. We have three very well presented packages. The airport | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
commission has looked at it carefully and the Prime Minister and | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
I want to understand the options in detail and understand the strengths | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
and weaknesses of each and we will reach our decision shortly. I'm not | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
going to set a date on it. Shortly means in this year, surely. I don't | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
want to wait unnecessarily long to take the decision but nor do I want | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
to set a date so to to work towards that. Will there be a free vote? I | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
need to identify the best option for Britain and take the best possible | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
approach to get the support of parliament Porritt. Will there be a | :22:45. | :22:52. | |
free vote? Decisions have not been taken but we will do the best for | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
the interests of the country. Theresa May has said the options for | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
an expansion to Heathrow are seriously flawed. Philip Hammond has | :23:05. | :23:13. | |
described the Heathrow option as dead as a Norwegian parrot. Can you | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
be sure that the Prime Minister and Anna Chancellor will vote for your | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
proposal? We are looking at three options that are very new. One of | :23:22. | :23:32. | |
them is Heathrow. Warrant -- they are very different options to what | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
has been proposed in the past. They are all very well crafted proposals. | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
They are interesting and have potential and we need to decide. | :23:42. | :23:50. | |
That is why I am asking you. HS2, high-speed train, can you state | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
categorically it will go ahead? It's due to start construction in the | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
spring. The hybrids Bill Haas to continue its passage through the | :24:01. | :24:09. | |
house of law -- the hybrid Bill Haas to continue through its passage in | :24:10. | :24:22. | |
the house of lords. Will it be 2026? Will it be on-time and on budget? | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
The select committee of MPs said it is unlikely and will certainly be | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
over budget. I expected be absolutely clear and on -- expected | :24:34. | :24:45. | |
to be absolutely on-time and on budget. The latest estimate for | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
phase one, the core cast is ?14 billion but there is contingency on | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
top of that. How much? It is set to Treasury rules. It is always going | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
to be over. If you really believed in the Northern powerhouse wouldn't | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
this money be better spent instead of making it quicker to come to and | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
Birmingham from London in under 90 minutes, which you already can, | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
wouldn't it be better to spend the money on state of the art road links | :25:24. | :25:35. | |
between East and West in the north. I think we need to do both. We can't | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
get more freight onto rail without creating more space. By taking fast | :25:44. | :25:51. | |
trains off the West Coast main line which is already busy and put fast | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
freight trains onto the new route, you create more capacity for places | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
like Milton Keynes Dons Northampton, Coventry. It is about making sure we | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
have a transport system that can cope with the demands of the | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
21st-century. Thank you very much. Now, as we speak, voters in Hungary | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
are going to the polls to vote on whether to accept mandatory EU | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
quotas for relocating migrants. The country's government has been | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
campaigning for voters to reject the EU's proposals and has run | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
a highly controversial campaign, accusing migrants of terrorism | :26:22. | :26:23. | |
and crime - and the Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said today he'll | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
quit if the country votes In response to the ongoing migrant | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
crisis, the EU wants to establish a permanent European resettlement | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
programme, under which, member states must take their fair | :26:34. | :26:35. | |
share of asylum seekers, depending on the size of each | :26:36. | :26:37. | |
country's population and economy. If countries refuse, | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
the European Commission has proposed that they would incur a financial | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
penalty of 250,000 euros per person, to cover the cost of another | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
country taking them. Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
Szijjarto said the plan Last year, Hungary rejected | :26:54. | :26:55. | |
an emergency EU plan that would have seen tens of thousands of refugees | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
transferred out of the country in return for accepting a quota | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
of almost 1300 refugees As an EU border country, | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
Hungary has received 18,500 In 2015, it received the most asylum | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
applications relative to its population of any EU state - | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
1800 for every 100,000 local people, though the majority of those then | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
travelled onwards to other Although the referendum | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
result will have no affect on the EU's decision, | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
the Hungarian government hopes the weight of public opinion | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
will help it resist the plans, running a very controversial | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
referendum campaign. For example, this poster saying | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
migrants carried out We're joined now from Budapest | :27:44. | :27:45. | |
by our Correspondent, Nick Thorpe. I understand that the polls are | :27:46. | :27:59. | |
pretty clear that the government will win this referendum but it | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
needs a turnout of at least 50% for it to matter. What indication of | :28:06. | :28:14. | |
turnout so far? As of 11am, turnout was just over 16% of the electorate. | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
We have an electrode of 8.3 million, the government is campaigning | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
strongly for a no vote. The government have framed the question | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
in such a way that it is hard to vote, yes, we do want this imposed | :28:32. | :28:43. | |
on us. The issue of turnout is important because the opposition | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
have campaigned not to vote or to spoil votes. Even if the government | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
wins on the numbers, if more people vote against the quotas, is it a | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
symbolic defeat for the government if that was to happen? Some people | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
will argue it would be a symbolic defeat if they don't get 50%. We've | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
heard that ministers are backing off the whole issue of turnout. They are | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
hoping for at least 3 million people to vote. Even 4 million which would | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
be the 50%, voting no to migrant quotas. They say that all of those | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
votes will give them a strong moral hand. In the words of the Prime | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
Minister, it will sharpen the Hungarian sword in the battles | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
ahead. Thank you very much. Malin Bjork is Swedish | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
MEP and Vice Chair of the Confederal Group | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
of the European United Left Welcome to the programme. The quota | :29:47. | :29:59. | |
system proposed already seem to be dying if the Hungarians vote the way | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
they are expected to today, that will kill it, will it not? I think | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
we should have it as a point of departure whether we have seen that | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
Hungary is a model in any of the fields that we want hungry -- Europe | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
to be. I don't think Hungary is the model. I don't think we should give | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
him the kind of weight that he actually claims. He wants more | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
weight to this referendum. I don't think we should give it to him. | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
It is not just Hungary, is it? There are meant to be 100,000 migrants | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
covered by the quota system, fewer than 5% have been covered by it. It | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
is just not happening, whether Hungary votes for or against? No, it | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
is totally... But that means it is not operational, it is simply not | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
working. There are serious criticisms to have towards | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
implementing partners in this. But I do think when it comes to the | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
political course, Hungary is playing a very dangerous, racist and right | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
nationalist game. I don't think we should adapt to it. If it comes to | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
it, we have to be prepared to be behind those that do not want to be | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
the Europe that is taking responsibility globally. Let me | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
clarify what you mean by that. The Foreign Minister of Luxembourg has | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
already said that Hungary should be expelled from the European Union. Is | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
that what you are saying as well? No, no. You know what I think? As a | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
progressive politician on the left side, I do have a lot of criticisms | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
to the European Union. But there are planets apart from the kind of | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
models that Viktor Orban is trying to build, where he does not respect | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
human rights, laws and media freedoms, and now he attacks refugee | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
rights. Given all of that, let's accept what you say is true about | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
that, others may dispute it, but let's accept that as true, why | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
should Hungary remain a member of the European Union? Well, it is up | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
to each country that has voted to stay, and voted to become members, | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
voting to stay, I don't think Orban has any intention of leaving EU. I | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
think he wants more influence in the EU. I think he wants more influence | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
domestic league through the referendum and more influence in the | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
EU. The question the rest of the countries have to ask themselves is | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
if we are going to give it to him or adapt to his politics in any of | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
these fields he is active in? I think we should make a stand against | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
it. We should have political forces in other countries that have exactly | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
the same kind of agendas, which we don't want to see strengthened. | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
Isn't the problem that may be Hungary is on the trend, and you are | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
not? We have seem the right, some may call it the far right even, on | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
the march in Austria, Poland and in Hungary, even in Germany, with the | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
recent elections in Berlin and Angela Merkel's backyard, even | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
progressive social Democratic Sweden, your third biggest party is | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
now the Sweden, Democrats, a hard right nativist party. Why are forces | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
on the move, and while the forces used and four on the defensive? The | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
more progressive forces, I think they are growing in many countries | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
also, such as Spain, Ireland and other countries. It is not just for | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
the left, it is for the broader political spectrum to counteract | :33:40. | :33:41. | |
nationalist, right-wing and racist forces. We know where they lead, a | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
dead end. It is a challenge in the European countries. Why is Europe | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
going in this direction? In 2016, why are the forces of the rights so | :33:52. | :33:59. | |
strong? To be honest, I think we have to be a little bit more humble | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
and say are we failing people in some way? Yes, austerity policies | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
are not working. Inequalities have grown for over 20 years in Europe. | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
Of course it is a failure. We are capable of saving banks, but not | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
refugees. People see this. It is political failure and I think we | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
have to sit down and create different pacifists. What is | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
happening now is worrying. I see some of the political forces in | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
Europe. -- create different patterns. I see parties in Europe | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
adapting to racism nationalist voices. I think we have to be the | :34:36. | :34:43. | |
different parties that will not adapt to nationalist stories. They | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
paint imaginary enemies. A huge chunk of Hungary's public spending | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
comes from the European Union, net contributors like Sweden and the | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
United Kingdom. If Hungary votes this way, should that continue? | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
Should we continue to bankroll it? The way Europe and the European | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
Union, individual members develop, of course we should lead discussions | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
about money and heel spending to the respect for rule of law, the respect | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
for human rights and the respect for international rights that are being | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
infringed by the Hungarian government. Of course, we have to | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
have such a discussion and it has to be frank. | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :35:32. | :35:33. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. | :35:37. | :35:50. | |
An agreement to resolve a bitterly disputed parade has been hailed | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
We ask, how can the two communities in North Belfast | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
And is this deal a sign that perhaps all contentious parades | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
That's what I'll be discussing with Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
And our commentators, Chris Donnelly and Lesley Carroll - | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
both, of course, with strong links to North Belfast - | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
And we'll hear live from Stephen Walker in Birmingham | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
Does the ending of one of the most contentious parades in recent years | :36:19. | :36:31. | |
mean that all disputes can now be dealt with and agreed locally? | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
Just over 24 hours ago an Orange Order parade past Ardoyne | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
shops ended the three-year protest camp at nearby Twaddell Avenue, | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
with a residents' organisation and the Orange Order | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
committing themselves to a forum which will agree | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
With me now to reflect on the wider implications of yesterday's | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
resolution of such a seemingly intractable problem | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
are Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly - an MLA for North Belfast, | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
of course - and the DUP's Sir Jeffrey Donaldson. | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
Welcome to the programme. Gerry Kelly, first of all. | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
Is that the Twaddell issue dealt with once and for all in your view? | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
Interestingly, the last commentary was seemingly intractable and that | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
has been a difficulty, we never thought of it as tractable. A line | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
runs through all the local issues about having conversation, people | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
have been in conflict for a long time. There have been conversations, | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
we have an agreement around evening parades which were most contentious | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
and it augurs well for expanding out, into wider conversations about | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
what we can do in the wider area without the issue of contentious | :37:56. | :37:57. | |
parades jumping into the middle every time you try to talk with | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
someone of a different opinion. What is your understanding about the | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
agreement on future parades? The agreement says there is a moratorium | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
and a forum will be setup and if there is an agreement, the | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
moratoriums... But if that is an agreement, presumably unionists | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
would point out to be an agreement that isn't the case that | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
nationalists will never reach such an agreement? There is a chance the | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
two interpret it differently. You wore a journalist and will try to | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
interpret this. I know that's what people are saying on but the general | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
view of people in Ardoyne is that the parade cause all sorts of | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
difficulties in the area, especially in community relations. The view of | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
the Orange Order is that they want to move on, why do we have an | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
agreement? There was talk about trust but agreement either because | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
there is a lack of trust. We have an agreement that says one will do a if | :39:05. | :39:12. | |
the other does B, so we're at the point of conversations meaning | :39:13. | :39:14. | |
something. The Orange Order did what they said they would do, the Crumlin | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
Ardoyne Residents' Association did what they said they would do and we | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
will move on, but I hope the wider issues will be dealt with without | :39:25. | :39:32. | |
this difficulty. To be clear, is it your understanding that those from | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
the nationalist side of the hosts who go into that forum understand | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
that it is a possible outcome that there would be a future or future | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
parades home in future? Everybody understands that if you have a forum | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
and the dialogue, and it will be face to face, they will discuss the | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
outcomes. And all outcomes are on the table? Yes, and it is up to CARA | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
and the Orange Order to deal with that. I do not want to start dealing | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
with what will be a job for them to do, but as a politician in the area, | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
there are wider issues we can now hopefully have relationships which | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
are not just one or two but 50 people from Ardoyne were from | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
Twaddell Avenue talking to each other. Jeffrey Donaldson, you | :40:24. | :40:32. | |
believe the forum will make progress of the outstanding issues like | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
return parades? I believe it can. I think dialogue and local | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
accommodations are the way forward. In 2010 when we last brought forward | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
proposals for dealing with parades in its wider context, this is the | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
kind of template we envisaged for dealing with local parade disputes | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
and I welcome this. I think it is a good sign, I hope both sides will | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
not engage in good faith and I have no reason to believe they weren't, | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
and they will find an accommodation that addresses the Parades | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
Commission. But you will be aware that the charge against the | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
agreement is that there is a healthy dollop of constructive ambiguity in | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
their and it is possible for the two sides to read it differently. And | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
that has been the case with many agreements. Yes, we are very good at | :41:29. | :41:37. | |
it here. The big challenge is whether people make the most of what | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
is in front of them. I am encouraged by what I have heard, I think people | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
will make the best of it, people are approaching this with the best | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
intentions, there isn't a hidden agenda to overcome the immediate | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
problem, you walk off the road and that is the end of it. I don't think | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
that is where we are coming from. You are now a fan of constructive | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
ambiguity? In the past you railed against it, you wanted everything to | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
be out in the open and no subtext, now you are saying it isn't bad. I | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
said it has been a reality that has marked the peace process. What we | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
have done is make the best and to draw upon what is available to make | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
things work in Northern Ireland and that is what we have done. Different | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
people will interpret agreements in different ways, even if there wasn't | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
constructive ambiguity that would be the case anyway and that is the | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
reality of life here. The question of where we go now, people honoured | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
what they said they would do yesterday and that is encouraging | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
and they followed through. Secondly it is about leadership and I believe | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
there is good leadership on both sides that can help resolve this | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
issue for the longer term in North Belfast, but also there were lessons | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
we can draw from this for the wider parading issue. Let me disagree on | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
this, it's not constructive ambiguity. There is a statement in | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
the agreement which says that there is a moratorium from yesterday, | :43:24. | :43:31. | |
that's not constructive ambiguity. It is if the two sides read it | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
differently. But they aren't reading it differently. You said you were | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
also hearing on the grounds that different individuals read things | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
differently. If I didn't say it clearly, is I said it was obvious on | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
the ground that people of the Ardoyne did not want the parades | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
through and the Orange Order want the parades through, that is a fact. | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
The agreement is understood by both sides to mean exactly what it says | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
and all these agreements are pretty well crafted. Let me bring in the | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
commentators and hear what they have to say. Chris Donnelly, you read | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
that statement with a degree of constructive ambiguity? Can't you | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
see how both sides of the dispute could interpret it differently or do | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
you think it's black and white? I think it's important to be honest, | :44:27. | :44:38. | |
technically speaking the GARC spokespersons said that had Sinn | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
Fein not offer a disparate, there would never have been returned | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
parade, because then it begins to shape why they made this offer of | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
the steel and I think it was because of the perspective of Sinn Fein are | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
the DUP, they wanted to be seen to reach a hand-out, the loyalists and | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
the Orange Order had dug themselves into a hole, by making themselves 81 | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
and done deal, this parade will not be repeated, this is where the | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
ambiguity comes in, because of the term moratoriums it is very unlikely | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
there will be a deal and only the Irish News has mentioned that | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
publicly because politicians have been dancing around it. I do not | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
envisage return parades for the foreseeable future. I think the | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
reason why this parade offer was made was to create the ground in | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
which he linked and reconciliation can take place and we can move on. | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
That is the point I am trying to get that, that for unionists who are | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
party to this agreement, they still hope there will be future parades. | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
Chris seems to suggest there is no appetite for that in the nationalist | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
community, hence make use of the phrase constructive ambiguity. Yes, | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
and that may be the case but both sides to this understand that this | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
is not all about parading, there are a lot of issues underneath which | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
contribute to how each of the sides feel and what they expect in the | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
future, so what I understand this agreement to do is creating that | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
space in which all those issues can be addressed, parading as part of it | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
but when you were in a forum where 50 people will encounter each other, | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
they will talk about education and social deprivation, information | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
sharing, a big issue for the loyalist committee, they don't feel | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
they get information and that now needs to happen inside the forum. | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
Maybe that is the point Jeffrey was making, it is not just going to be a | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
forum discussing future return parades, it's a much bigger agenda. | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
In my opinion it has to be, not necessarily in the forum but the | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
dialogue, the process of conversation has to be broadened | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
out. There are good relationships, and Lesley and Chris know this, | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
there have always been good relationships across the political | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
views but they are nearly individual relationships. What I want to see, | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
and I think this gives the start to it, is the ability for people on a | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
weekly basis to be talking about all things like Lesley said which mean | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
something to people and that is what has been difficult to get in North | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
Belfast. Interesting, Jeffrey, it's good to have you with us. We were | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
not able to find a single unionist who would take part in the | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
discussion on The View on Thursday night. We have heard claims recently | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
and going back several years of an absence of leadership by the main | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
unionist parties on this issue. Do you accept that? Know, and I think | :48:03. | :48:10. | |
people may have been reluctant to speak on Thursday because before the | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
events of yesterday people did not want to be drawn into saying | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
something... Gerry Kelly was happy to take part. That is a call for | :48:19. | :48:26. | |
Sinn Fein to make but I do not think it is about the lack of leadership. | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
Behind-the-scenes there have been unionist representatives in North | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
Belfast who have been encouraging this process. But not standing up in | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
public and defending it. I'm here today and doing that. You weren't on | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
Thursday. We wanted to see how things went. In the past week had | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
this a few weeks ago and the wheels came off and we didn't want that to | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
happen. So the unionist leadership didn't back itself to come on and | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
support the deal. I'm not saying that, I am saying there was a | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
feeling, let's leave the airways clear for a few days to let this | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
event takes place and then we can comment, and let me be clear, we | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
support what has happened, we believe that the accommodation that | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
has been reached here is something that could be repeated in other | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
areas. We want to see a broader solution, we recognised that | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
disputes over parades are symptoms of a deeper problem that we need to | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
address, we're up for that, the Fresh Start agreement outlines | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
measures that we intend to take to address these things, so far from | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
shying away from this, the Fresh Start agreement creates the context | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
in which we can continue to progress and reach local accommodation as | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
occurred this weekend. And does that mean the Parades Commission can be | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
done away with and the Executive office run by your parties can come | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
up with an alternative to which? I think you are ahead of it there. | :50:09. | :50:16. | |
That is part of the conversation. I do not think it is time for the | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
Parades Commission to go away, I would argue this was the hardest | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
issue we dealt with, we have moved into a new era. I don't like to | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
overemphasise this but locally and throughout Belfast this is a great | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
move forward. There are still others and there risk at the red that you | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
cannot put one on top of another because there are always local | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
issues but that the red running through it, every negotiation we | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
have been involved in, once you start talking you work on the right | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
road. Do you think the time has come for the end of the Parades | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
Commission? I think there is a basis for moving forward. We outline ideas | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
in 2010 and I think we can build on those ideas and what happened | :51:07. | :51:07. | |
yesterday. It's just a couple of hours | :51:08. | :51:09. | |
until Theresa May's opening address to the Conservative Party conference | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
and she certainly has everyone's attention with this morning's | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
announcement that the process to begin withdrawing from the EU | :51:16. | :51:17. | |
will be triggered before the end of March next year. | :51:18. | :51:19. | |
At the conference in Birmingham is our political correspondent, | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
Stephen Walker. That's the date in the diary | :51:23. | :51:24. | |
everyone's been waiting to hear. How's that announcement | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
gone down in Birmingham? This morning I have been speaking to | :51:29. | :51:39. | |
some Conservative Party activists and they were delighted that the | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
reason of May have said this. We have been having this debate for | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
months, when with things move forward? She kept saying Brexit | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
means Brexit and people in the party and media were getting bored by | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
that, they wanted a new life and people felt she couldn't come to | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
this conference, she had to say something new. People felt she | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
couldn't go into the debate today without saying something new so she | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
said Article 50 will be triggered before March and people in the | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
Conservative Party are generally pleased and I think she will get a | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
good reception this afternoon. You've been speaking to Theresa May | :52:19. | :52:20. | |
about Brexit and its impact on Northern Ireland and, | :52:21. | :52:22. | |
of course, what it will mean Yes, we had an interview in Downing | :52:23. | :52:31. | |
Street before the conference, we talked about Brexit and the border, | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
our first interview talking about Northern Ireland and let's look at | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
part of that. What we are both clear about, myself and the Irish | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
government, and the government in Northern Ireland, is that we don't | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
want to see a return to the borders of the past but we will work closely | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
together to make sure we can see movement across the water. But you | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
campaign in Northern Ireland to remain and said a leave vote would | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
result in some form of tariffs and controls, so have you changed your | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
mind? I don't think I used those words, I said of course if we leave | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
and have land border with the EU, that changes that relationship | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
across the border but what I am clear about what might you said it | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
would be inconceivable that there wouldn't be some kind of change. | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
There would be a land border with a country in the EU, but I think all | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
parties are very clear that there is the intent and will to make sure we | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
have an arrangement that isn't a return to the borders of the past. | :53:45. | :53:52. | |
How do you police that? We're discussing how we can develop these | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
ideas to make sure we deliver on the intention of all parties that we | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
don't return to the borders of the past. We're looking at Brexit | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
negotiations and these will take time, there are complexities in | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
those negotiations but we want to ensure we continue to have a good | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
relationship with Europe. I want to see over all the UK having the right | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
deal in terms of trades and goods and services. | :54:23. | :54:23. | |
What else should we be looking out for over the next few days? | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
Will the new Secretary of State get his moment in the sun? | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
Yes, that will be on Tuesday, it will be a busy day. We have that | :54:31. | :54:38. | |
traditional Ulster fry on Tuesday morning, of -- Arlene Foster and | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
Francie Molloy and James Brokenshire will be there, he will talk to the | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
conference and then at lunchtime something unusual, a champagne | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
reception being hosted by the DUP. That may not have happened in Ian | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
Paisley's day, I've heard of champagne socialists but this is the | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
first time I have heard of champagne unionist. An interesting move away | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
from the Devil's buttermilk, as Ian Paisley would have had it. | :55:14. | :55:15. | |
Stephen Walker in Birmingham, thank you. | :55:16. | :55:16. | |
Time now for a look back at the political week in 60 | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
The opposition and set the Assembly, to keep the focus on Nama. People | :55:20. | :55:37. | |
need to know Northern Ireland is a clean place to do business. | :55:38. | :55:39. | |
The blame game began as it was revealed that a report | :55:40. | :55:41. | |
We had a missed opportunity for a party discussion. The party didn't | :55:42. | :55:53. | |
block it and some of the allegations made like saying Northern Ireland | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
would take an immediate economic hit have been shown to be false. | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
And the result of that referendum is causing problems | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
We have 120 million euros of offers for cross-border prospects and they | :56:02. | :56:11. | |
are logjam. And as the BBC charter was debated, | :56:12. | :56:13. | |
one MLA suggested the Assembly It might be interesting to study the | :56:14. | :56:24. | |
viewing figures of Stormont Today for insomniacs and burglars. | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
A chippy Danny Kennedy ending Gareth Gordon's look back | :56:28. | :56:29. | |
And let's have a final word from Chris and Lesley. | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
To go back to Birmingham, Lesley, and Theresa Walker talking about | :56:36. | :56:44. | |
Theresa May saying she will trigger Article 50 by the end of next March, | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
so we know what timescale we are looking at. Its news and it's not | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
news, we all knew it would soon happen but we now want to know | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
content. It's great that the snap the beginning and the end but I | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
would like more content. And more information about the issue of | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
border controls. She was keen in that interview to stress a different | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
tone to the one she had before the referendum, she wants to work with | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
the Irish government to minimise the impact of the border, and also this | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
week other Tory ex-ministers, John Redwood and Iain Duncan Smith, | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
prepared their own Brexit blueprint and it shows the path is fraught | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
with dangers fought to reason makes because other sides want to | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
emphasise angles. Enda Kenny has said he wants to have this | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
All-Ireland Brexit conversation in Dublin. The DUP and Full Street | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
unionists are not going. Is that a mistake? I think it is in that | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
Brexit matters to the Irish greatly in terms of the border, it has to | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
matter to us as well and it's better if they all have a conversation. | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
Edwin Poots was an the view on Thursday night, not interested and | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
said it was a waste of his time. I think it's the instinctive unionist | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
hostility to anything All-Ireland but there will be voices that might | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
open the week unionists, perhaps involved in the CBI for agricultural | :58:23. | :58:30. | |
interests, who will be keen on having their views expressed and | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
have another chance to take forward their concerns. It will be | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
interesting to see when it happens and we will be sitting around the | :58:39. | :58:39. | |
table. Back to Andrew in London. | :58:40. | :58:40. | |
a much better job than And we're joined now by the former | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
Work and Pensions Secretary and Leave campaigner, | :58:45. | :59:03. | |
Iain Duncan Smith. it you said we could be out of the | :59:04. | :59:20. | |
European Union by 2018? My senses if you keep their process as simple as | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
possible and don't try to get special pleading and try to be a | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
member of the single market which they are not going to grant you, if | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
you go for a clear and simple position on trade and find an | :59:34. | :59:40. | |
agreement then the more complex issues then disappear. Theresa May | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
has said that when she brings the act forward to repeal the 1972 act, | :59:48. | :59:54. | |
at the same time you binding the European Law and you speed the | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
process up. Keeping it simple, keeping up pace is what we | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
recommended. It allows you to get the end point quicker. | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
You talk about member of the single market, Chris Grayling told me there | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
was no such thing, which slightly puzzled me. You clearly think that | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
there is. What you want, as I understand it, is a free-trade | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
agreement with the European Union. That could not be done by 2018? We | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
want free trade. There are two approaches to getting free trade | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
with the European Union. The first is that you say, OK, in this | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
process, if we sympathise and ask ourselves, if we now have a new | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
relationship, we have left, we want capital goods, we want to access | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
each other's markets, it benefits you more than us, but we are happy | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
not to have tariff barriers on your trade, we have an agreement of no | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
tariff barriers. Financial services are outside, a separate issue, more | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
of a regulatory issue. That is also approaching a deal on equivalence | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
that we could accelerate. The point I am saying is if you do not go down | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
the road trying to nominate individual bits and pieces and say | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
it is a good agreement for us both, you could reach that by agreement. | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
If you don't and you can't, you could fall back on the WTO | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
arrangements and say, well, later on, we will continue that | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
negotiation discussion to decide whether or not we want a free-trade | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
position. If you fall back on that, what you say to the boss of Nissan, | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
who says he will not invest again in this unless the government back row | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
compensates him, he faces tariffs? The answer to that is that first of | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
all I did not believe we will end up in a situation where it is, in any | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
way, a financial benefit for the European Union to want to impose any | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
kind tariff. Right now you are 12% better off anyway. The level of the | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
pound has made it 12% more competitive with European partners, | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
even if you slapped on 10% tariff. It goes up and down, but you asking | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
him to take investment decisions, multi-billion pound decisions, head | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
of Jaguar, saying roughly the same thing, at a time of real | :02:14. | :02:23. | |
uncertainty. Until it is resolved, investment in Britain will slow | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
down, if not dry up? They invest because this is a darn good place to | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
sell your businesses. You heard from the head of the publishing sector in | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
Germany, he said Britain in five years' time will be much more | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
profitable than anywhere else and will be the boom place. Outside the | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
European Union it will be more flexible to set out arrangements. I | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
am with him on this. I was in business before I came into | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
politics. Nobody knows what the future holds for anything. For car | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
makers and others that want to build stuff, they are here because they | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
want a flexible workforce, much lower levels of cost, and a much | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
better contract law base. 85% of Nissan's output goes to the single | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
market. That is right, they also sell here. 15%? You are not suddenly | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
going to meet a massive tariff wall, a closet is not in the interests of | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
the European Union to set up a massive tariffs. Guess who sells | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
more to us than we do to them? The European Union. The Germans | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
themselves are behind-the-scenes talking to us. We had a lot of that | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
during the referendum. Let me move onto some other things. Damian Green | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
is now running your old department. He is scrapping repeated tests for | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
the seriously disabled, people that you know are not going to be able to | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
improve. Why didn't you do that? We wanted to change this, it was a | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
programme given to us by the last Labour government, we did quite a | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
lot to improve it. The big problem, the programme as it exists at the | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
moment, it does not deal with health conditions, it deals with ability to | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
work. That is the problem. If you want to scrap it for people with | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
health conditions, you have to change the criteria by which they | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
are being assessed. That has always been the issue. For disability | :04:13. | :04:24. | |
payments, it is a different matter. They are assessed on their | :04:25. | :04:26. | |
condition. The problem for that... He will stop the assessments of | :04:27. | :04:28. | |
people that are seriously disabled, why didn't you do that? This is not | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
seriously disabled, it is people that suffer from sickness | :04:32. | :04:32. | |
conditions, not necessarily full-time disability. There are two | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
elements. When I was in Government, we have always set out a process | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
that said we needed to change the way the sickness benefit system was | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
assessed. That was so you could rule out conditions, some progressive, | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
some absolute, on a medical basis, on the approval of the Health | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Service, so they would say this is a condition that will change, it will | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
mean they cannot work now but they might be able to work for a bit. You | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
put it into a box marked medical conditions. That was already on the | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
box. He has just done that, to acclaim. Why didn't you do it, if it | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
is that simple? We needed to get agreement in Government and we have | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
not reached the Provo ease approval. It is a wider plan. This could have | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
been incremented on its own? But you have to change the way you do it. I | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
was in favour of a bigger plan that brought in changes all into one, | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
because they are competing with each other and do not have the kind of | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
effect that you want. It is the right thing to do. Until now, there | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
have not been a huge number of assessments taking place because the | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
system has not been able to cover it. There is a lot of talk about | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
trying to reposition the Tory party on the centre ground, even the | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
centre-left, talking about worker's rights and so on. It is not credible | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
until she does something. 6 million people earn less than the Living | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
Wage, after six years of Conservative government. 6 million | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
people earn less than the Living Wage. That is the reality, not Tory | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
erect a wreck that we are hearing in the hall. -- that is the Tory | :06:12. | :06:21. | |
rhetoric. Raising the minimum wage was making sure that you identify | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
that and raise the blood. There are still 6 million below. The mantra of | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
this government was to make work pay. 50% of families in poverty have | :06:33. | :06:41. | |
at least one family member working. They are still in poverty, waiting, | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
doing difficult and unpleasant jobs, long hours, they are still in | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
poverty. Many people in this country work and still it is the equivalent | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
of poverty. That does not pay, work does not pay for them. Huge problems | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
down the low skill level of work. This is the one area, the level of | :07:03. | :07:11. | |
skills at that point is arguably some of the lowest in the Western | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
world. Companies too often do not invest in skills because of the | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
nature of the tax credit system, you have them in packets of 16 hours, it | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
is not worth investing. Universal Credit will change all of that quite | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
dramatically. It allows people to work more of the hours, invest more | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
in them. The second aspect is back to the migration issue. That has had | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
a very damaging effect on low workers. There are two elements of | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
this. It is not just the statutory migration, it is that what happened | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
is that a lot of people come for under one year. They do part-time | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
work, they claim full benefits, Migration Watch proved it is over 4 | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
billion per year. That allows them to go and do cash in hand work. It | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
is a big problem, it has only now become clear how damaging that has | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
become to British people working at low income level. What does this | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
party, if it is this self-styled Workers Party, what does it have to | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
do in a country where 6 million people get less than the Living | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
Wage, 50% of people in poverty are already in work and poverty levels | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
among those in work are at record levels. So much for the worker's | :08:24. | :08:35. | |
party? The answer is it has to do a lot, we have been talking about | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
Brexit a lot, Theresa May has dropped a lot of hints about what | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
she wants to do. The announcement yesterday morning about this massive | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
review, led by a Blairite, Matthew Taylor, to completely re-examine | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
employment rights. Thereby meaning, for the low paid and the casual | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
workers, holiday pay for Uber drivers, it opens a massive area of | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
things, grammar schools... You need high-quality technology schools to | :09:09. | :09:19. | |
up-skill its? She has all of this on her agenda, possibly more | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
interesting than even Brexit. I was planning not to mention Brexit in | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
this segment, but I think I did. There was a lot of flesh to be put | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
on his bones before it is convincing? Theresa May is playing a | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
political game of trying to dump the nasty party image, become a more | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
compassionate conservative. She is changing from the David Cameron era, | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
instead of being the bottom 10% or 15% of people that he was focusing | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
on, as well as the wealthier elite, she is looking at the people earning | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
more than ?16,000, up to ?21,000, those who have children that are not | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
on free school meals, not the most deprived, she calls them the just | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
managing classes, they might have one for holiday each year, they | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
might want to send their kids to piano lessons or the local Football | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Club, they are not the poorest people on welfare. That could have | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
an impact on what you're saying, it could also undermine her reputation | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
for being compassionate if she is seen to be abandoning the people | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
that need help most. There is always a political case for doing something | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
for Middle Britain, where most people are. They call at Middle | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
America over there and so on. But these are not the in work but in | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
poverty. Being a worker's party, one that dines out on its support for | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
work, if it is to do anything, it has to do something about these | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
people? The key issue is what the economic policies are in this new | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
government. Nobody on the programme this morning has talked about the | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
deficit, which George Osborne framed everything around, to the point | :11:03. | :11:11. | |
where, as they know better than anyone, he struggles to get welfare | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
reforms affected because of our budget cuts that hit those on low | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
income in work. Until we know the degree to which the framing of that | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
deficit strategy has changed, we will not really know the space they | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
will have to make sure that does not happen over the next few years and | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
the opposite happens. That applies to all of these issues, actually. | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
The economy will provide the space, or not, to do these things. The | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
Treasury is telling the Chancellor that the slowdown in the economy, | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
not as slow as they thought, but still a slowdown, that, in itself, | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
will widen the deficit. Therefore, he is not going to have a tonne of | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
money to throw around on top of that, which would widen the deficit | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
even further. There is room for manoeuvre which may be quite slight? | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
Not quite true. He has abandoned George Osborne's fiscal targets. | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
Having already taken this into account by what they think is the | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
slowing of the economy. They have been wrong in the past, but that is | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
why they have done that. There is not a turn of money around to spend | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
billions on infrastructure, unless, of course, like Mr Corbyn, you want | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
to borrow it. When you say you are not going to eradicate the deficit | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
by 2020, that is what you mean. If he needs to cushion the Brexit | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
impact, if there is one, I don't think we could pay off the deficit | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
by 2020. Then you'll have all of this money to do what you want with. | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
Final thought? There is also the attitude about business and the | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
attitude to the super rich and well. I think Theresa May will concentrate | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
on that more than David Cameron, alleviating concerns. The Autumn | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
Statement from the Chancellor will be as big as any of the statements | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
we hear this week. I am glad to hear it, it will be coming up live on a | :13:03. | :13:04. | |
Daily Politics special. at the Conservative Party | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
conference here in Birmingham. Fear not, I'll be back tomorrow | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
at 11am for a two-hour special as Chancellor Philip Hammond | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
takes to the stage. We are back on Tuesday and Wednesday | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
bringing Theresa May's speech on Wednesday just before lunch. We will | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
be back next Sunday as well. In the meantime, remember - | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
if it's Sunday, it's | :13:27. | :13:29. |