25/09/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


25/09/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided

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who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.

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So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?

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Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn

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elected as leader of the Labour Party.

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Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".

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But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?

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We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak

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to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.

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Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.

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His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah

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but he will never become the leader -

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He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -

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we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.

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David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May

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because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the

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And coming up here, a deal has been reached over the long-running

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Twaddell Avenue dispute in North Belfast.

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So is the stand-off now a part of history or are there

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In the capital, how is this rivalry shaping up?

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London's Mayor warns pointedly that you can only change lives

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And we tried to oust them from the programme -

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but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best

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and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,

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Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting

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David Cameron became intensely frustrated

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at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions

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in the run-up to the EU referendum campaign.

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That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.

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The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:

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The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail

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The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy

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Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach

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At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's

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Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's

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He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after

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saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".

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And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over

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backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read

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There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we

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know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us

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is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the

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only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a

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submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during

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the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why

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does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,

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they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing

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fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver

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says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of

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Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind

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Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did

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she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a

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reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.

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What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was

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she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is

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unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things

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we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to

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which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet

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seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we

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see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be

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exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the

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fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I

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missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a

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minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he

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would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and

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politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking

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them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the

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country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis

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of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics

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before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played

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the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the

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Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them

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and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective

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during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the

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leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that

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effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official

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at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me

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earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had

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declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great

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admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.

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So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made

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Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing

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contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership

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ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the

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Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and

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the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they

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wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of

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the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more

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about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile

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for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't

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want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They

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calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa

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May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than

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Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed

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her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for

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20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more

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about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there

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too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as

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an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we

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need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing

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Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who

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likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is

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tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we

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want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the

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result everyone expected. After almost three months

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of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -

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so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -

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or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching

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events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour

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family facing the future. He was the head of the family last

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week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader

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and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader

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and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest

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and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just

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over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's

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plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members

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all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive

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education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school

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segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging

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agenda for our country. But the big message

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to his party was this. We have much more in common

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than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe

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that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do

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as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go

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and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy

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Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory

:10:07.:10:09.

parties, but the most important thing now is just

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bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing

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is going around all the different individual party receptions,

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the different regions and giving the same unity message,

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and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,

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with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found

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a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited

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in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going

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to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?

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Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me

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so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?

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Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out

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their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound

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entirely convinced. It was fine.

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What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm

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the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that

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Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates

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within the PLP. I think that's

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the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then

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change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,

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posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,

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he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those

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issues as well. This is a position,

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as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in

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position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister

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of this country unless you appeal to the great population,

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and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no

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leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,

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they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics

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are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially

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plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter

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here at the festival running alongside conference,

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organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon

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that they have managed to get their hero elected,

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not just once but twice. And we're joined now

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by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.

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Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of

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2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,

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or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?

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You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.

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As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated

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plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because

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I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I

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was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find

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ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the

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capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a

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concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A

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number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was

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clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At

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the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said

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he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did

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there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger

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than ever. What we have done this is have a

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really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was

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important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out

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and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got

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to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the

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last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to

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understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective

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opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to

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get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but

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only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him

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the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this

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process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the

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2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who

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knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when

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it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would

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have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and

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it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your

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party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can

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unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the

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country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest

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of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to

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continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of

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the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General

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Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We

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need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but

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it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next

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General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and

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capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,

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everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are

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competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer

:15:59.:16:02.

that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have

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doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been

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honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over

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the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the

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concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be

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congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear

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victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that

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they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my

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mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party

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forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit

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unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the

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Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.

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Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about

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wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The

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time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his

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willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet

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should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --

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majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the

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cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been

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playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours

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following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the

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last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing

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that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His

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support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the

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membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who

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gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So

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why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that

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part of the Labour Party which likes him least?

:18:11.:18:14.

I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party

:18:15.:18:21.

incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order

:18:22.:18:27.

to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic

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duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't

:18:30.:18:35.

have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of

:18:36.:18:38.

travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful

:18:39.:18:42.

results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability

:18:43.:18:51.

to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.

:18:52.:18:55.

If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --

:18:56.:19:05.

he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and

:19:06.:19:10.

humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he

:19:11.:19:14.

could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he

:19:15.:19:18.

sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many

:19:19.:19:24.

would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be

:19:25.:19:28.

good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that

:19:29.:19:31.

route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow

:19:32.:19:37.

Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit

:19:38.:19:42.

in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't

:19:43.:19:45.

changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you

:19:46.:19:52.

just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two

:19:53.:19:59.

leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even

:20:00.:20:04.

bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the

:20:05.:20:09.

country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in

:20:10.:20:13.

the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my

:20:14.:20:16.

experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I

:20:17.:20:20.

think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary

:20:21.:20:24.

Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.

:20:25.:20:30.

I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the

:20:31.:20:35.

backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the

:20:36.:20:38.

front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,

:20:39.:20:42.

Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have

:20:43.:20:47.

you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would

:20:48.:20:52.

you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow

:20:53.:20:57.

Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take

:20:58.:21:00.

their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to

:21:01.:21:06.

their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of

:21:07.:21:09.

the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for

:21:10.:21:13.

some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed

:21:14.:21:19.

Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general

:21:20.:21:25.

fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to

:21:26.:21:28.

be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did

:21:29.:21:34.

Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?

:21:35.:21:39.

I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond

:21:40.:21:42.

the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy

:21:43.:21:46.

Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment

:21:47.:21:51.

programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy

:21:52.:21:53.

Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen

:21:54.:22:04.

Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy

:22:05.:22:10.

Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'

:22:11.:22:15.

John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left

:22:16.:22:23.

and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as

:22:24.:22:27.

left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have

:22:28.:22:31.

any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,

:22:32.:22:36.

actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and

:22:37.:22:40.

our belief that the British people should have a say on the final

:22:41.:22:45.

Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general

:22:46.:22:49.

election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as

:22:50.:22:55.

well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the

:22:56.:23:01.

difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has

:23:02.:23:07.

changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear

:23:08.:23:10.

difference between the new members who have come in and those who were

:23:11.:23:14.

party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would

:23:15.:23:19.

be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who

:23:20.:23:26.

more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we

:23:27.:23:30.

want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the

:23:31.:23:34.

Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about

:23:35.:23:39.

that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)

:23:40.:23:44.

Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,

:23:45.:23:50.

new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I

:23:51.:23:54.

would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what

:23:55.:23:58.

I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be

:23:59.:24:03.

honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a

:24:04.:24:06.

hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new

:24:07.:24:10.

members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom

:24:11.:24:14.

have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should

:24:15.:24:19.

remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people

:24:20.:24:23.

joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so

:24:24.:24:31.

there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy

:24:32.:24:34.

Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I

:24:35.:24:42.

understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know

:24:43.:24:46.

there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when

:24:47.:24:54.

you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the

:24:55.:24:58.

biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a

:24:59.:25:05.

team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she

:25:06.:25:09.

will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet

:25:10.:25:15.

elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi

:25:16.:25:16.

Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this

:25:17.:25:22.

leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade

:25:23.:25:24.

Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use

:25:25.:25:27.

the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee

:25:28.:25:31.

is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win

:25:32.:25:38.

control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn

:25:39.:25:41.

first became leader, there has been a fine balance

:25:42.:25:49.

on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,

:25:50.:25:52.

the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up

:25:53.:26:00.

to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members

:26:01.:26:03.

representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,

:26:04.:26:06.

the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,

:26:07.:26:12.

with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these

:26:13.:26:15.

could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been

:26:16.:26:19.

boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,

:26:20.:26:27.

who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed

:26:28.:26:31.

a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour

:26:32.:26:36.

leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn

:26:37.:26:40.

Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move

:26:41.:26:43.

to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,

:26:44.:26:49.

a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks

:26:50.:26:56.

three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,

:26:57.:27:09.

Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,

:27:10.:27:16.

is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect

:27:17.:27:19.

people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists

:27:20.:27:22.

on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting

:27:23.:27:24.

the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more

:27:25.:27:27.

say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow

:27:28.:27:29.

Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future

:27:30.:27:32.

leadership elections, which would make it almost

:27:33.:27:34.

impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making

:27:35.:27:36.

a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared

:27:37.:27:39.

by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -

:27:40.:27:52.

a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC

:27:53.:27:55.

and takes up her seat at the end of the week -

:27:56.:27:58.

and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith

:27:59.:28:00.

in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The

:28:01.:28:20.

figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn

:28:21.:28:27.

and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is

:28:28.:28:36.

very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn

:28:37.:28:43.

supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What

:28:44.:28:47.

about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives

:28:48.:28:51.

to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would

:28:52.:28:54.

be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.

:28:55.:28:58.

In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the

:28:59.:29:03.

balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing

:29:04.:29:07.

because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh

:29:08.:29:13.

representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,

:29:14.:29:17.

it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think

:29:18.:29:23.

of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm

:29:24.:29:26.

really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's

:29:27.:29:30.

incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.

:29:31.:29:38.

So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,

:29:39.:29:41.

they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?

:29:42.:29:45.

Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving

:29:46.:29:49.

towards having better representation, it's actually taking

:29:50.:29:53.

an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,

:29:54.:29:59.

the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that

:30:00.:30:04.

would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote

:30:05.:30:09.

from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that

:30:10.:30:13.

through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is

:30:14.:30:18.

it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I

:30:19.:30:23.

understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the

:30:24.:30:27.

conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting

:30:28.:30:29.

things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on

:30:30.:30:35.

conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the

:30:36.:30:38.

side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.

:30:39.:30:48.

Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that

:30:49.:30:52.

could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections

:30:53.:30:56.

for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I

:30:57.:31:05.

don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you

:31:06.:31:09.

can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is

:31:10.:31:17.

this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't

:31:18.:31:24.

serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would

:31:25.:31:27.

you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to

:31:28.:31:33.

listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it

:31:34.:31:36.

entirely elected by members. All elected?

:31:37.:31:41.

But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one

:31:42.:31:50.

third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP

:31:51.:31:59.

could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn

:32:00.:32:05.

agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about

:32:06.:32:11.

party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional

:32:12.:32:14.

unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories

:32:15.:32:17.

to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you

:32:18.:32:22.

need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not

:32:23.:32:24.

come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A

:32:25.:32:29.

few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some

:32:30.:32:34.

kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is

:32:35.:32:39.

political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.

:32:40.:32:43.

If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words

:32:44.:32:52.

of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and

:32:53.:32:55.

should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like

:32:56.:33:00.

that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a

:33:01.:33:04.

decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,

:33:05.:33:07.

and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory

:33:08.:33:11.

deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the

:33:12.:33:15.

PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other

:33:16.:33:18.

ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other

:33:19.:33:22.

ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the

:33:23.:33:26.

Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership

:33:27.:33:30.

of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between

:33:31.:33:33.

the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of

:33:34.:33:38.

people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some

:33:39.:33:42.

of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other

:33:43.:33:47.

way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could

:33:48.:33:52.

change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a

:33:53.:33:55.

membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already

:33:56.:34:01.

vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off

:34:02.:34:04.

people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour

:34:05.:34:08.

heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was

:34:09.:34:15.

an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in

:34:16.:34:18.

the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could

:34:19.:34:21.

reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come

:34:22.:34:29.

back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to

:34:30.:34:34.

recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.

:34:35.:34:37.

It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!

:34:38.:34:44.

It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:34:45.:34:46.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:34:47.:34:49.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:34:50.:34:58.

Agreement is reached on the Twaddell Avenue

:34:59.:35:00.

So what are the possible pitfalls? in the area is happy.

:35:01.:35:07.

The Stormont Speaker has called a halt to Private Members'

:35:08.:35:09.

bills because officials have been overwhelmed.

:35:10.:35:11.

We'll hear what one MLA and a former Committee Clerk make of the move.

:35:12.:35:18.

Plus, an overwhelming endorsement from the membership,

:35:19.:35:20.

but can Jeremy Corbyn now unite the Labour Party?

:35:21.:35:23.

And with their thoughts on it all, journalists Sam McBride

:35:24.:35:25.

The agreement over the Twaddell Avenue loyalist dispute has

:35:26.:35:36.

been broadly welcomed, with politicians and

:35:37.:35:38.

police describing it as a positive development.

:35:39.:35:41.

The deal was announced in a statement on Friday by two

:35:42.:35:44.

mediators, the Reverend Harold Good and the businessman Jim Roddy.

:35:45.:35:47.

However, one residents group in Ardoyne has opposed the deal

:35:48.:35:50.

Let's hear what Allison and Sam make of the development.

:35:51.:35:59.

Morning to you both. If the agreement enough to resolve the

:36:00.:36:05.

issue once and for all do you think, Allison? I think there's an appetite

:36:06.:36:09.

to see the end of that protest up there. It must've cost over ?20

:36:10.:36:13.

million to police those parades, so there's an appetite to get rid of

:36:14.:36:19.

it. The problem, the dissent if you like, is there was not dialogue

:36:20.:36:22.

involving all groups so with two groups who negotiated this deal

:36:23.:36:26.

between them, the same deal which is has been more or less on the table

:36:27.:36:29.

for the last three years. There's nothing different about it. There is

:36:30.:36:34.

no secret recipe to end it. They've managed to get it over the line and

:36:35.:36:38.

the cynics are saying it's a fresh start, a huge financial carrot to

:36:39.:36:44.

end the protest. The key question is, with GARC not being involved,

:36:45.:36:50.

does that mean there is a serious question over whether or not this

:36:51.:36:56.

deal will stick? Obviously, there will be parades. I've been covering

:36:57.:37:01.

them for years, and regardless what is said, there's very rarely any

:37:02.:37:05.

trouble at the morning parades, which tend to pass off peacefully

:37:06.:37:12.

enough. I think the deal will stick. Obviously, there is also dissent in

:37:13.:37:18.

the loyalists. One of the lodgers has resigned, there's only a handful

:37:19.:37:21.

left. They say they were not involved in negotiations of the deal

:37:22.:37:25.

and all sides are trying to sell this as a success to their

:37:26.:37:28.

supporters and both of them can't be right so someone was obviously the

:37:29.:37:33.

loser. Why do you think the deed has been reached this stage? There's

:37:34.:37:38.

been a sense of exhaustion on both sides. Allison is right,

:37:39.:37:41.

fundamentally this deal is not massively different to what has been

:37:42.:37:45.

on offer for a very long time, but to get to the point where people are

:37:46.:37:50.

prepared to compromise, there has to be a period where people say,

:37:51.:37:54.

actually, things are not going to change. We saw over the last humans,

:37:55.:37:59.

with the lodge walking away from the talks with the open split on display

:38:00.:38:05.

on the 12th night, only one large paraded up the police lines and the

:38:06.:38:07.

others left hanging in public, there were split emerging on the unionist

:38:08.:38:15.

side, we obviously have always had these two residents groups and the

:38:16.:38:20.

Nationalists, and there was a pragmatic sense that if they could

:38:21.:38:24.

find some sort of deal which could be presented to their supporters as

:38:25.:38:28.

an honourable compromise, that there was an appetite there to take it.

:38:29.:38:32.

Allison, presumably, the biggest hurdle in immediate future is what

:38:33.:38:36.

happens next, Saturday morning, for the return parade, one of the key

:38:37.:38:42.

contentious issues in the past three years. How do you think that might

:38:43.:38:48.

unfold? If that parade goes passed peacefully, think that was the an

:38:49.:38:53.

end to disputes in that area. If it doesn't, there will have to be a

:38:54.:38:58.

huge police presence there if people are protesting full spit could

:38:59.:39:01.

derail the entire thing. At this point in time, people are just more

:39:02.:39:05.

wary in that area and have had enough, and there's an appetite to

:39:06.:39:11.

save us all. Very quickly, Sam, were you surprised there was a week are

:39:12.:39:15.

to allow potentially pitfalls between the agreement being reached

:39:16.:39:18.

and the Saturday parade? I think there was always at every stage of

:39:19.:39:24.

this process, when various deals were put forward, there was a time

:39:25.:39:28.

frame between the deal being agreed and the parade happening. I'm not

:39:29.:39:30.

sure whether the police required that, but I think there's a big test

:39:31.:39:38.

for Sinn Fein. There are two groups, can they carry that deal through

:39:39.:39:43.

when they were once completely dominant? This Republican group at

:39:44.:39:52.

the weekend launched, where did think the whole movement? There's an

:39:53.:39:56.

appetite in a nationalist community for an alternative. I think they

:39:57.:40:03.

missed an opportunity, the launch of their party in Newry over the

:40:04.:40:08.

weekend, they had a chance to layout the install -- their stall but it

:40:09.:40:16.

just turned into a Sinn Fein exercise I don't think there's much

:40:17.:40:21.

to set them apart. OK, we would get a lot more from you later in the

:40:22.:40:25.

programme. But, for now, thank you very much indeed.

:40:26.:40:26.

The Speaker of the Assembly is pressing the pause button

:40:27.:40:28.

Already this year, 19 draft bills have been submitted compared to 25

:40:29.:40:32.

in the whole of the last Assembly term and now Robin Newton has

:40:33.:40:35.

In a letter to the Chair of the Committee on Procedures,

:40:36.:40:41.

With me is the former Clerk of Bills at the Assembly, Alan Patterson,

:40:42.:40:49.

and the North Belfast MLA Nichola Mallon.

:40:50.:40:56.

Welcome to you both. You have a private members bill in the system

:40:57.:41:03.

at the moment, so you are one of the 19, so I suppose from a personal

:41:04.:41:06.

point of view you must be happy you are in before the pause button has

:41:07.:41:10.

been pressed but I do not happy that the speaker has gone down this

:41:11.:41:13.

route? Yes, certainly I tabled my private method Bill on the first

:41:14.:41:18.

ever mandate because there was a glaring gap there. I think this is M

:41:19.:41:23.

and healthy move full so we are elected to be legislators and people

:41:24.:41:27.

expect us to have ideas and to bring forward legislation and their is not

:41:28.:41:31.

an overwhelming amount of legislation coming from the

:41:32.:41:35.

Executive. In fact, the Justice minister says she intends to bring

:41:36.:41:38.

forward no primary legislation before June so there's a

:41:39.:41:41.

responsibility on us and what is concerning me is that we see another

:41:42.:41:46.

attempt to stifle opposition. People expect us to bring forward

:41:47.:41:51.

legislation. MLAs put a lot of work into identifying where the gaps and

:41:52.:41:55.

addressing those and this banner which is absolutely no time limit

:41:56.:41:59.

put on it, is something I think all Democrats should be concerned about.

:42:00.:42:02.

Do you not accept the speaker is trying to deal with an issue not of

:42:03.:42:06.

his making whereby the system simply was not designed to cope with this

:42:07.:42:10.

level of interest in private members bills? He's made clear in his

:42:11.:42:15.

letter, he doesn't want to stifle opposition and things private

:42:16.:42:17.

members bills are an essential part of what the Assembly does. It's

:42:18.:42:20.

simply the system isn't there to cope. Why has he not put a time

:42:21.:42:25.

frame on this band? Why has he not so clearly it's a resource issue and

:42:26.:42:31.

it's something they want to address from a resource perspective? There's

:42:32.:42:34.

only six members of staff in the Belfast office serving all of the

:42:35.:42:38.

MLAs and that's something we need to look at because it's not simply that

:42:39.:42:44.

there are no resources. We have over 150 people in communications across

:42:45.:42:47.

the Executive who are able to find money for a high least paid spin

:42:48.:42:52.

doctor so we need to look at putting more resources into the bill office

:42:53.:42:55.

to make sure we have more robust legislation come forward. Were you

:42:56.:43:01.

surprised by the move? I think legislation is a fundamental role of

:43:02.:43:05.

the Assembly and this move will disproportionately affect opposition

:43:06.:43:12.

parties. Because the MLAs and the governing parties will have

:43:13.:43:15.

opportunities through ministers to bring forward legislation. I think

:43:16.:43:17.

the speaker would be better looking at changing the process which is

:43:18.:43:23.

many years out of date. He's launched a review. He - to the

:43:24.:43:27.

committee procedures and said look at this. That's what he's doing.

:43:28.:43:34.

That might take some time. There's other things they will look at at

:43:35.:43:39.

this stage. It may be six months, a year down the line before

:43:40.:43:41.

recommendations of the report comes out, meanwhile, MLAs won't have the

:43:42.:43:47.

opportunity to bring forward legislation. Maybe many could be

:43:48.:43:52.

brought forward but the vast majority go nowhere. Between

:43:53.:43:59.

1999-2011, only two actually got written into law. It's a huge cost

:44:00.:44:04.

to the Assembly in terms of the taxpayer, in terms of bringing

:44:05.:44:08.

forward legislation which could go anywhere. The system needs to change

:44:09.:44:16.

now. What do you suggest, it's a waste of time? That's one

:44:17.:44:19.

conclusion. It's a waste of time because disenfranchises MLAs and

:44:20.:44:23.

demotivate people and their interests. They find they can't

:44:24.:44:28.

bring forward change through legislation effectively so it's not

:44:29.:44:31.

a question of wanting to diminish the role of ministers but ministers

:44:32.:44:38.

can't provide resources, but the don't provide any resources, any

:44:39.:44:46.

support. The Bill office, it's a voluntary basis, time to spare after

:44:47.:44:49.

they deal with Executive decisions. A lot of would-be legislation

:44:50.:44:55.

brought forward by MLAs isn't up to the mark. It is shoddy work. I have

:44:56.:45:01.

to say if you look at some of the most significant pieces of

:45:02.:45:03.

legislation which came forward in the last mandate, they were from

:45:04.:45:09.

private members bills. John McAllister. Stephen Naidoo. That's

:45:10.:45:15.

two. That was a statutory obligation to work in the best interests of

:45:16.:45:20.

children. Yes, not every built comes forward because sometimes Department

:45:21.:45:25.

subsume them. There were 19 tabled throughout the five year life of the

:45:26.:45:28.

Assembly and when the speaker says there's been 25 in three months,

:45:29.:45:31.

seven system can't cope. It was designed to cope with up pressures

:45:32.:45:35.

of last mandate, this mandate will be choked up in no time. We knew

:45:36.:45:39.

that there was going to be an opposition this time round we've

:45:40.:45:43.

known that, we knew we were going to have an increase in terms of

:45:44.:45:46.

legislation coming forward. The debate needs to be how we better

:45:47.:45:49.

resource the bill 's office, not about the fact you put a stop on

:45:50.:45:53.

private members bills. The Assembly is a legislative Assembly which has

:45:54.:45:58.

a duty to bring forward legislation not to stifle it. If it assigned you

:45:59.:46:04.

think of political maturity, the fact that now there were 25 pieces

:46:05.:46:09.

of private members legislation brought forward into the system

:46:10.:46:15.

throughout the whole five-year mandate we've just seen. 19 so far.

:46:16.:46:20.

Does it suggest MLAs are beginning to get to grips with the process of

:46:21.:46:24.

legislating? I don't think they are. If you look at the number of

:46:25.:46:28.

amendments tabled by non-government members and private members on

:46:29.:46:31.

legislation in general, they tend to come from ministers. So experience

:46:32.:46:38.

in dealing with legislation is not in the Assembly. If you go to Wales

:46:39.:46:41.

or Scotland, they have specialised units. Scots have ballots. In

:46:42.:46:50.

Scotland, any member can bring forward bills in any one session.

:46:51.:46:53.

They have a unit which provides all the support they need in terms of

:46:54.:46:58.

drafting, writing speeches, getting evidence, consultation, in Scotland,

:46:59.:47:00.

they have dedicated build teams for members. In Northern Ireland, the

:47:01.:47:10.

bill office provide support if they can afford to do it. So there is

:47:11.:47:14.

variable amount of resources. Members are spending a huge at a

:47:15.:47:17.

time and resources during the consultation exercises, which then

:47:18.:47:21.

go to the speaker who decides quite wrongly whether it could be selected

:47:22.:47:27.

for drafting. So we need to live by benchmarking how things work in

:47:28.:47:30.

Stormont with elsewhere in the UK and maybe indeed in the Republic as

:47:31.:47:34.

well? In everything you look around to see best practice and you try to

:47:35.:47:37.

learn best practice where you can find it, so certainly... Would a

:47:38.:47:43.

ballot to be a good idea? I didn't get myself a left it as a MLA to be

:47:44.:47:47.

involved in a potluck scenario to see if my name is pulled out of a

:47:48.:47:51.

hat. That happens in Westminster. There's other range of options to

:47:52.:47:56.

look at but certainly six members of staff in a bills office, if we're

:47:57.:47:59.

serious about bringing forward legislative change, that's not good

:48:00.:48:02.

enough and that's the key issue in all of this. Finally, let me ask you

:48:03.:48:06.

about the subject before the Dell from the programme. Your reaction to

:48:07.:48:14.

the deal between the Ligoniel Orange lodges and the Crumlin/Ardoyne

:48:15.:48:15.

Residents' Association. Do you believe it is a significant progress

:48:16.:48:19.

and a deal which could and should stick? I certainly think it's a

:48:20.:48:23.

positive step that I think the voluntary nature of this agreement,

:48:24.:48:31.

for understanding, as our First Minister Corsican has brought

:48:32.:48:33.

anxiety to the people of Ardoyne based on their experiences over many

:48:34.:48:36.

years, but I think Allison is right. The critical thing here is that

:48:37.:48:41.

everyone has signed up with a clear understanding of what's expected of

:48:42.:48:44.

them and what they can expect of the others. What we don't want to get to

:48:45.:48:48.

is a situation where people are very different understandings of what

:48:49.:48:51.

will come out of this process. That's so is the seeds of

:48:52.:48:54.

discontent. It's not helpful in trying to get us where we all want

:48:55.:48:58.

to be, to find a permanent resolution, and agreed resolution to

:48:59.:49:04.

the dispute at Ardoyne. We believe that here. Thank you both very much

:49:05.:49:05.

indeed. Let's hear more

:49:06.:49:08.

from Sam and Allison. Heartening to see the enthusiasm

:49:09.:49:09.

of MLAs to get legislation? The pause button has been pressed.

:49:10.:49:16.

We have a review and you've heard some of the challenges the review is

:49:17.:49:20.

going to face. Do you think the resources are not there to do the

:49:21.:49:25.

job properly? That's exactly what it comes down to, classic example of

:49:26.:49:28.

storm want shooting itself in the foot. Lots of us have been

:49:29.:49:31.

incredibly critical of the Assembly for padding at the order paper with

:49:32.:49:37.

his private members motions, lack of legislation. The minute MLAs get

:49:38.:49:41.

stuck in to do their job, and there's a lot of work to do, years

:49:42.:49:46.

of work, they are told there are not the resources to do it. You've got

:49:47.:49:50.

to question the priorities of an Assembly which has the money to

:49:51.:49:52.

subsidise its canteen but doesn't have the money to adequately

:49:53.:49:56.

resource is what is its primary function, bring forward legislation.

:49:57.:50:02.

Eamon McCann says, in his view, private members bills give meaning

:50:03.:50:10.

to being a MLA and his open to table a private members bill on an

:50:11.:50:13.

environmental protection agency but he's not one of the 19, so his

:50:14.:50:18.

private members bill is not in the system and is going to go nowhere

:50:19.:50:21.

for the foreseeable future. Can you see the frustration on his part and

:50:22.:50:26.

the part of others? Obviously and because there's been a time frame

:50:27.:50:29.

but on this review, we don't know when the system is going to start

:50:30.:50:33.

working again. We need a healthy opposition and we need these matters

:50:34.:50:37.

to be pushed through and the issue here is definitely resourcing. Six

:50:38.:50:42.

members of staff in an Assembly which has 120 press officers, it's

:50:43.:50:47.

ridiculous. It had curtailing the opposition 's voice? Yes, maybe that

:50:48.:50:50.

was intentional but that's what's going to happen. The opposition will

:50:51.:50:54.

be penalised as a result. Thanks both of you.

:50:55.:50:55.

Jeremy Corbyn's victory over Owen Smith to retain the Labour

:50:56.:50:57.

leadership leaves him at the head of a deeply divided party.

:50:58.:51:00.

As delegates gather in Liverpool for their annual conference,

:51:01.:51:02.

our correspondent, Stephen Walker, is there.

:51:03.:51:06.

I asked him how he would sum up the mood after yesterday's result?

:51:07.:51:10.

Today is a bit like the calm after the storm. Yesterday was an exciting

:51:11.:51:18.

day obviously with the leadership, the election of Jeremy Corbyn

:51:19.:51:24.

beating Owen Smith pretty successfully. His supporters were

:51:25.:51:28.

thrilled and delighted because not only was he re-elected, but

:51:29.:51:32.

re-elected with a bigger majority, so they are delighted. The talk here

:51:33.:51:37.

is about the party coming together. Jeremy Corbyn used these words in

:51:38.:51:40.

his speech of wiping the slate clean and people want to know exactly what

:51:41.:51:44.

that means. A lot of people are talking about the party moving on,

:51:45.:51:47.

coming together as a party, listening to the criticisms that

:51:48.:51:51.

actually getting their act together so they can form an effective

:51:52.:51:54.

opposition at Westminster. One of those who feels the party needs to

:51:55.:52:00.

move on now is the Shadow Secretary of State Dave Anderson, and here is

:52:01.:52:03.

a little of what he has been saying. I'm glad it's all over. So we can

:52:04.:52:07.

get on with a day job, government. Doing what we should be doing. Not

:52:08.:52:13.

people wrapped up in self-interest. We've got to focus on that. My

:52:14.:52:17.

colleagues who perhaps have been upset with the leadership, they've

:52:18.:52:22.

listen to what the members say and recognise the members and now we get

:52:23.:52:27.

together to do the right thing for the country. Dave Anderson striking

:52:28.:52:32.

a positive note that the issue of Jeremy Corbyn 's leadership is

:52:33.:52:36.

simply not going to go away? It's not. We've had the result, it is

:52:37.:52:40.

definitive, but those problems, as you say, have not gone away. Those

:52:41.:52:46.

criticisms of his style, direction, manner, are not going away.

:52:47.:52:50.

Essentially you have two camps, the membership who are for him, he's

:52:51.:52:55.

elected with 60%, a lot of them are new members for the Jeremy Corbyn

:52:56.:52:59.

has galvanised the party, brought in new members, very organised and

:53:00.:53:02.

active and are left wing and are backing Jeremy Corbyn and then you

:53:03.:53:05.

have the other blog, the Parliamentary Labour Party, which

:53:06.:53:09.

are anti-Jeremy Corbyn full of so many resigned from the Shadow

:53:10.:53:13.

Cabinet. Is there some kind of comp demise, some kind of accommodation

:53:14.:53:16.

which can take place between these two blocks and other party can move

:53:17.:53:21.

forward? That's the trick people are talking about here in Liverpool. How

:53:22.:53:27.

visible is Northern Ireland on the conference agenda? It used to be a

:53:28.:53:33.

big thing during the days of the peace process. Those days have gone

:53:34.:53:36.

so it's not high up the agenda. But there are still fringe meetings

:53:37.:53:41.

taking place around the conference agenda. People are still talking

:53:42.:53:44.

about it, Dave Anderson, he's talking about Northern Ireland

:53:45.:53:49.

today. There's a meeting tonight about Brexit, of course another

:53:50.:53:53.

massive issue. Mary Lou McDonald from Sinn Fein will speak about

:53:54.:53:58.

event. Colin Eastwood from the SDLP will be here tomorrow, so Northern

:53:59.:54:01.

Ireland is being talked about on the fringes and on Tuesday we have a

:54:02.:54:04.

traditional thing which happened at all the conferences, the traditional

:54:05.:54:08.

Ulster fried breakfast when the speaker will be Martin McGuinness,

:54:09.:54:12.

so Northern Ireland isn't high on the agenda but still being

:54:13.:54:13.

discussed. Jeremy Corbyn's re-election isn't

:54:14.:54:17.

necessarily good news for members No, it's a double-edged sword

:54:18.:54:26.

because membership in Northern Ireland is pro-Corbyn. 70% voted for

:54:27.:54:32.

Jeremy. They are particular to centre, people who believe Jeremy

:54:33.:54:34.

Corbyn's vision for the Labour Party is but on the other hand, they want

:54:35.:54:38.

to organise in Northern Ireland and the leadership of the Labour Party

:54:39.:54:42.

either doesn't want it or is lukewarm about it, so what the

:54:43.:54:46.

activists are doing in Liverpool, and there's a dozen will come over,

:54:47.:54:50.

they are lobbying other delegates to try to see if they could support the

:54:51.:54:55.

whole idea of labour candidates standing in Northern Ireland, but

:54:56.:54:57.

they know it's going to be an uphill struggle. Stephen Walker in

:54:58.:54:59.

Liverpool. Now for a look back at the political

:55:00.:55:00.

week in 60 seconds. The week began with the news man

:55:01.:55:03.

still making the headlines as MLAs Mac is bigger families gave the

:55:04.:55:16.

Executive two weeks to release funding for troubles inquests. They

:55:17.:55:20.

are in breach of the human race on this issue. I ask the Secretary of

:55:21.:55:24.

State to read the Council of Europe report which clearly said it was its

:55:25.:55:30.

responsibility and responsibility of the UK Government.

:55:31.:55:32.

Gerry Adams denies claims he sanctioned the murder of IRA

:55:33.:55:34.

It's alive. I specifically denied. This minister is refusing to say how

:55:35.:55:46.

he voted. Which way did you vote? Of course you're going to have

:55:47.:55:51.

differences. People are not interested in how I voted. They are.

:55:52.:55:59.

Right royal row over Spain went on. As a proud Republican, how do you

:56:00.:56:08.

feel about exercising? I feel grand. Absolutely grand.

:56:09.:56:08.

LAUGHTER And let's have a final word

:56:09.:56:13.

from Allison and Sam. Just to pick up on Jeremy Corbyn Mac

:56:14.:56:24.

boss re-election. Westminster politics looks like it could be

:56:25.:56:27.

pretty action packed in the near future, doesn't it? I think the

:56:28.:56:31.

Parliamentary Labour Party shot themselves in the foot when they

:56:32.:56:35.

launched an attack on Jeremy Corbyn at a time the Tories were having

:56:36.:56:39.

significant problems in their own party. They could've let that sit

:56:40.:56:42.

for a while. I think now the membership has shown overwhelming

:56:43.:56:46.

support for him, they will have to buckle down and accept he's their

:56:47.:56:50.

leader. And make some kind of compromise. Otherwise they will be

:56:51.:56:57.

unelectable for a generation. What is your assessment? Do you think

:56:58.:57:00.

Jeremy Corbyn can remain long-term if the majority of his MPs don't

:57:01.:57:03.

back him and the party continues to struggle in the polls? It is an

:57:04.:57:08.

unprecedented extraordinary situation because they changed the

:57:09.:57:12.

rules. We have no background to that but I think a lot of members of the

:57:13.:57:15.

public will say all politicians are the same, there no difference

:57:16.:57:19.

between them. We're in a situation now where people can't say that. We

:57:20.:57:23.

have a real opportunity here to see the difference between Labour and

:57:24.:57:26.

the Conservatives and in the nature of Donald Trump, people may be

:57:27.:57:34.

writing of Jeremy Corbyn of it too early. Certainly when you compare

:57:35.:57:38.

him with Donald Trump, is much more credible politician with a long

:57:39.:57:42.

track record, albeit it's pretty extraordinary if he was ever Prime

:57:43.:57:46.

Minister. A fascinating situation. It will keep us busy in the weeks

:57:47.:57:49.

and months ahead. Thank you both very much indeed.

:57:50.:57:51.

and months ahead. Thank you both and he said it

:57:52.:57:51.

And that's it for now. and he said it is worse than under

:57:52.:57:52.

Back to Andrew in London. Stalin!

:57:53.:58:07.

Welcome back - and we're joined now by John Prescott, who's been coming

:58:08.:58:10.

to Labour Conferences for more than 50 years.

:58:11.:58:12.

And our political panel, Tom Newton-Dunn, Rachel Shabi

:58:13.:58:14.

John Prescott, welcome back to the Sunday Politics and a Labour

:58:15.:58:21.

conference. In a much changed Liverpool! I can't believe it. That

:58:22.:58:29.

looks amazing. Has the Labour Party ever been at a low ahead in the past

:58:30.:58:35.

50 is? It's an interesting question. I hear everyone going back 50 years

:58:36.:58:40.

but we've always had fierce battles in the Labour Party, whether it was

:58:41.:58:44.

nuclear or the left or the right, we used to fight over the Treasurer's

:58:45.:58:49.

vote! There have always been those strong battles. It has become more

:58:50.:58:54.

personal now, it is more abuse than argument and we've got to move away

:58:55.:58:59.

from that. Do you share the fears of your old colleague Neil Kinnock,

:59:00.:59:05.

that there might not be another Labour government in his lifetime?

:59:06.:59:09.

Who was that? Neil Kinnock, former leader of the Labour Party? When I

:59:10.:59:17.

heard him saying there will never be another Labour government in his

:59:18.:59:21.

lifetime... Basically, Neil, you did lose to elections and Michael foot

:59:22.:59:27.

lost that election. We lost with Ed Miliband... There is no doubt he's

:59:28.:59:31.

got great experience of that but he is wrong! I thought we would get to

:59:32.:59:37.

the answer! Is the Labour Party at a very low ebb? It is, but I think

:59:38.:59:42.

you're absolutely right, it is a great myth that in the past there

:59:43.:59:46.

weren't huge, passionate internal debates. Under Wilson's leadership,

:59:47.:59:53.

there were problems all over the place but he won for elections out

:59:54.:59:58.

of five, he always used to say. It has become much more personal now

:59:59.:00:01.

with the social media thing going on in that kind of raises it to a

:00:02.:00:03.

different temperature. If it was accepted they could argue

:00:04.:00:13.

over policy, as was in the past and as will be the case with the

:00:14.:00:16.

Conservatives over Brexit, then there might be a way of working

:00:17.:00:20.

around this. As things stand at the moment it is a completely

:00:21.:00:23.

nightmarish, circuitous debate where the MPs slack him off and his

:00:24.:00:27.

supporters slack them off and it gets nowhere. The danger for Labour

:00:28.:00:31.

is earlier in the programme we talked about elections to the NEC

:00:32.:00:34.

and who will hold the balance of power there and the battles coming

:00:35.:00:38.

of the argument over how to choose the Shadow Cabinet, Labour can't

:00:39.:00:41.

afford another year of talking about itself. No, that is right, and the

:00:42.:00:48.

public isn't remotely interested in these very tedious internal

:00:49.:00:50.

machinations. Look, Jeremy Corbyn has proved himself twice. There can

:00:51.:00:56.

be no clearer message that the party really needs to put this behind them

:00:57.:01:01.

and focus on unifying. I think the other great myth, we're talking

:01:02.:01:05.

about the myths of history and time and the centre-right. The myth is

:01:06.:01:08.

that they have all the answers. They clearly don't. They haven't been

:01:09.:01:13.

able to persuade their own selectors of their own eligibility and they

:01:14.:01:18.

haven't been able to persuade the general public that a right words

:01:19.:01:22.

shifting Labour Party is preferable and desirable. So maybe it's time

:01:23.:01:29.

for them to think, you know what, Jeremy Corbyn has won two leadership

:01:30.:01:34.

elections, he has caused the party to be swelled, its ranks swelled and

:01:35.:01:38.

it's the largest party in Europe and people are galvanised, motivated and

:01:39.:01:41.

energised in a way they haven't been for so long. People have been

:01:42.:01:45.

apathetic about politics for so long. May be that wing of the party

:01:46.:01:48.

has something to learn from Corbyn rather than the other way around. I

:01:49.:01:52.

couldn't get Heidi Alexander to answer this. Is there any doubt that

:01:53.:01:57.

Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour into the 2020 election? I think there is a

:01:58.:02:02.

small doubt. He could still be toppled. Who would topple him? The

:02:03.:02:08.

unions. This massive force in Labour politics, centre-left politics,

:02:09.:02:11.

which no one has come close to talking about in the last few days,

:02:12.:02:14.

we have a huge election coming up the after next for the Unite union.

:02:15.:02:23.

Len McCluskey is running again. If he stands down, they have already

:02:24.:02:27.

lost the GMB and Unison are not fond of him, if he does go it is curtains

:02:28.:02:32.

for him. It is about fundamental change taking place. Everyone of us

:02:33.:02:36.

has got to think differently, including me. They have all got to

:02:37.:02:41.

say for the party have said this with their new members, we have a

:02:42.:02:44.

different way of doing things and we want some of the old policies

:02:45.:02:48.

rehearsed and put forward again. The changes, whether in the PLP, the

:02:49.:02:52.

trade unions or elsewhere, things have changed, it's a big change

:02:53.:02:55.

coming to the Labour Party and thank God. I remember arguing with Tony

:02:56.:02:59.

Blair whether we should call it new Labour or old Labour and he wanted

:03:00.:03:03.

to call it new Labour and I said why don't we call it Labour. There is a

:03:04.:03:09.

change in policy, they want fundamental change, they are

:03:10.:03:13.

entitled to have it, he has won two elections, why do we think of the

:03:14.:03:17.

revolutionary thought, he is our leader until the next election, get

:03:18.:03:20.

on for the ride and fight the Tories instead of fighting ourselves. There

:03:21.:03:24.

is one really good answer to that, that is all well and good but you

:03:25.:03:28.

are 26% in the polls, an all-time historic low that is where Corbyn is

:03:29.:03:32.

taking them. All too often we talk about the polls. Terrible

:03:33.:03:41.

inconvenience! Let us go along this road, see how we can do it, the PLP,

:03:42.:03:46.

let's just for the argument is about the election of the Shadow Cabinet.

:03:47.:03:50.

The PLP voted against Shadow Cabinet is only two or three years ago and

:03:51.:03:54.

now it wants them back. Quite right, I support them, I've been party to

:03:55.:03:59.

them. For god sake, can get on with fighting the Tories, back the

:04:00.:04:02.

leadership for the moment? I have to say to Jeremy, talking about splits

:04:03.:04:08.

in part is, we have already wondering, Momentum crazy things,

:04:09.:04:18.

argue the case for change. Electoral College instead of one man, one

:04:19.:04:23.

vote. I've always fought for one man one vote. That would be going

:04:24.:04:28.

backwards, would it not? It would strengthen the PLP. We have to look

:04:29.:04:32.

at all of these fears and do a proper conference as I advocate, but

:04:33.:04:37.

think about it first. We have ?3 members at Miliband came through and

:04:38.:04:41.

whacked that through special conference. We need to think about

:04:42.:04:45.

how we've done things in the past, trade unions, members of Parliament,

:04:46.:04:50.

PLP members, they want change, they are entitled democratically to see

:04:51.:04:54.

if we will listen to them at implement it democratically. Jeremy

:04:55.:04:57.

must show leadership. What does showing leadership mean? There are

:04:58.:05:02.

two things. The election of a Shadow Cabinet if you want to do that.

:05:03.:05:06.

Elected by whom? That could be the PLP to begin with. We can't wait

:05:07.:05:13.

until the conference comes along, 11th of October. These things are

:05:14.:05:16.

constitutional. In the coming elections he is the leader, he could

:05:17.:05:25.

put in people he feels he has to have their in the Shadow Cabinet,

:05:26.:05:29.

because it's all about power distribution, and give the PLP the

:05:30.:05:32.

right to put some people in and then look at the issues of whether other

:05:33.:05:36.

members should be involved. That's the long-term. At the moment a team

:05:37.:05:40.

ready for fighting Theresa May, she will be worse than Thatcher. We are

:05:41.:05:46.

here in the great traditional Labour city, the heartland of traditional

:05:47.:05:50.

Labour support. Does anybody in Liverpool care how the Shadow

:05:51.:05:54.

Cabinet is selected? I doubt meet people just outside this building

:05:55.:05:58.

are talking about that. They will be because they are journalists! I

:05:59.:06:03.

don't even think they will be! In a way we are contradicting ourselves

:06:04.:06:06.

because we are saying we should not spend time talking about it and we

:06:07.:06:10.

are all talking about it. The so-called rebels misjudged this

:06:11.:06:13.

completely in terms of timing, when they all resigned on the Sunday

:06:14.:06:16.

after the referendum, they didn't ask, do we have a candidate? What

:06:17.:06:20.

happens if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't go as a result of this and have they

:06:21.:06:24.

got themes that can unite the rest of the membership, or a new

:06:25.:06:33.

membership could to? We keep talking about the voters. Let's not talk

:06:34.:06:36.

about the Shadow Cabinet because that is an insider conversation.

:06:37.:06:41.

About the voters, we don't know whether Jeremy Corbyn is electable

:06:42.:06:45.

or not. We don't know how he would fare with a united team behind him

:06:46.:06:52.

with over 500,000 members canvassing, campaigning, talking

:06:53.:06:57.

about his policies. We don't know if for this time, in a time when we are

:06:58.:07:00.

dealing with massive inequalities, when we're dealing with rampant...

:07:01.:07:05.

Just, food banks, child poverty and things that should not happen in one

:07:06.:07:09.

of the wealthiest countries in the world. We don't know whether what

:07:10.:07:13.

the Labour Party proposes under Jeremy Corbyn will resonate. We will

:07:14.:07:16.

have a chance to find out. One of the things that is interesting is

:07:17.:07:19.

that clearly the membership of the party has changed dramatically, even

:07:20.:07:24.

in the past 12 months. Will the Parliamentary party change as a

:07:25.:07:28.

result of that? There has been talk of the and reselection. This is what

:07:29.:07:31.

Mr Corbyn had to say this morning. The relationship

:07:32.:07:37.

between an MP and their It's not necessarily

:07:38.:07:40.

all the policy tick It's also the relationships,

:07:41.:07:43.

the community, the effectiveness of representation

:07:44.:07:46.

and all those issues. Let's have a democratic discussion

:07:47.:07:47.

and I think the vast majority of MPs will have

:07:48.:07:50.

no problem whatsoever. Is it's not inevitable, given that

:07:51.:08:01.

you've talked about it yourself, this huge change taking place in the

:08:02.:08:05.

Labour Party membership, that the Parliamentary party will have to

:08:06.:08:09.

change to reflect that? To some extent the PLP is the creation of

:08:10.:08:13.

the previous membership, not the new membership. That is right. Some

:08:14.:08:18.

people were opposing him within weeks when he was elected and

:08:19.:08:21.

pulling out of the cabinet and I don't think they will change. They

:08:22.:08:25.

might want to stay on the backbenches, they don't want to

:08:26.:08:28.

divide the party so they will fight for the party from the backbenches.

:08:29.:08:32.

The greater majority of those in the PLP they didn't want to go on this

:08:33.:08:35.

road of no confidence, that was one when they were kidded into believing

:08:36.:08:39.

that if they had a begin of no confidence he would pick of the

:08:40.:08:42.

revolver and shoot himself. It never was going to happen. So let's say,

:08:43.:08:47.

keep your view, if you don't want to get involved, fine, but now you are

:08:48.:08:55.

required to take account, looking at the policy issues between us rather

:08:56.:09:01.

than fighting ourselves. He has got to show leadership. He is the man in

:09:02.:09:06.

charge of it. That's why the election of the Capanagh has become

:09:07.:09:10.

more important inside the PLP. It's a struggle, isn't it? The PLP

:09:11.:09:14.

produced a whole package of things with electoral reform. Let's get on

:09:15.:09:18.

with that, put it on the side, get a team ready for October the 11th to

:09:19.:09:22.

fight the Tories are using our energy and fighting the Tories and I

:09:23.:09:25.

think the majority of MPs are on board for that. Will Rachel get to

:09:26.:09:30.

see her united Labour Party behind Mr Corbyn going into another

:09:31.:09:36.

election? No. This is it. We have to look at the facts on the table, the

:09:37.:09:40.

Labour Party, the PLP and the people in the country, those people who

:09:41.:09:44.

voted for Owen Smith, they are so far apart ideologically, the hard

:09:45.:09:48.

left and there is the Blairite right and those two will never unite and

:09:49.:09:52.

it's all very well John saying so and I admire your optimism but you

:09:53.:09:56.

and I know it will not happen. It has got to for our people. The party

:09:57.:10:02.

and our country wants it. If your press get onside instead of being so

:10:03.:10:05.

vicious about Corbyn, not just your paper, but most of them have had a

:10:06.:10:08.

kind of hostility that has not been seen before. It has taken ten

:10:09.:10:14.

minutes but eventually we got there. Perhaps we will wait and see. The

:10:15.:10:24.

ideological gap is as big as the 80s, partly because on both sides

:10:25.:10:27.

there is a complete lack of clarity about what they believe in and where

:10:28.:10:32.

they want to go. The early 80s, Roy Jenkins knew exactly what there were

:10:33.:10:38.

four and so did Tony Benn. There is that clarity of vision now. It is

:10:39.:10:42.

all blurred and muddled so there is a problem and an opportunity there.

:10:43.:10:47.

Second, I think the crunch point in this Parliament for Jeremy Corbyn,

:10:48.:10:51.

not now obviously, but if and when the Tories have a crisis over Brexit

:10:52.:10:58.

and if at that point Labour are 25, 20 6% in the polls he will have a

:10:59.:11:03.

crisis. Let me interrupt you because the really big political event

:11:04.:11:07.

yesterday wasn't what was happening here in Liverpool, it happened on

:11:08.:11:12.

BBC One on your TV screens. It was Ed Balls in Strictly. Let's see how

:11:13.:11:15.

that went. Dancing the waltz,

:11:16.:11:18.

Ed Balls and Katya Jones. There we go, glitter balls on

:11:19.:11:46.

strictly. I bet you wish you had been there. I turned it down some

:11:47.:11:52.

time ago. So did I! What was the woman who did it? Edwina. BBC

:11:53.:12:00.

journalists, the public like people like that and supported in many ways

:12:01.:12:03.

but they fall out because they can't dance. That is a drawback. They love

:12:04.:12:09.

them for not dancing, they love the fact they are trying. But they

:12:10.:12:15.

didn't win. I love dancing myself, but frankly you've got to have some

:12:16.:12:19.

movement. There has got to be a flow in the body and the feel of the

:12:20.:12:23.

music. I think you've got it there! You want to do it, I can tell!

:12:24.:12:31.

Doesn't he? He wants to do it. That is not dancing, it's about the

:12:32.:12:36.

movement of the body, the music and the spirit. You should be a judge on

:12:37.:12:44.

the programme. I give it eight! Today talking about Jeremy Corbyn,

:12:45.:12:50.

they love this, it humanises it. You can see a petition to get him on. I

:12:51.:12:57.

can see it happening. We may have to speak to compliance about it!

:12:58.:13:02.

Anyway, it has become a part of the Constitution that you and I have to

:13:03.:13:06.

meet at a Labour conference, so it's good to see you. Two comedians

:13:07.:13:11.

together. One day we might get a proper job!

:13:12.:13:13.

I'll be back next week at the Conservative Party

:13:14.:13:17.

Conference in Birmingham with more Sunday Politics.

:13:18.:13:19.

And I'll be back tomorrow with the Daily Politics at 11am

:13:20.:13:22.

over on BBC Two with more from the Labour Conference

:13:23.:13:24.

We will bring you what is happening in the Labour conference and the

:13:25.:13:30.

Shadow Chancellor's speech too. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:31.:13:33.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:38.

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