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SUNDAY POLITICS NIC C054J/02 BRD000000 | 2:00:00 | 2:00:00 | |
Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics. | 2:32:14 | 2:32:16 | |
After years of delay, all £80 million | 2:32:16 | 2:32:19 | |
of the fund set up to help improve deprived communities | 2:32:19 | 2:32:22 | |
has been allocated. | 2:32:22 | 2:32:23 | |
But questions are now being asked about why almost £2 million | 2:32:23 | 2:32:26 | |
of the Social Investment Fund is being managed by a group | 2:32:26 | 2:32:29 | |
with links to the UDA. | 2:32:29 | 2:32:31 | |
We'll hear from one of the chief architects of the fund, | 2:32:31 | 2:32:33 | |
the DUP's Emma Little-Pengelly, and one of its chief critics, | 2:32:33 | 2:32:37 | |
the Alliance Party's Chris Lyttle. | 2:32:37 | 2:32:39 | |
Also today, the Executive has a new approach | 2:32:39 | 2:32:41 | |
to how its Programme for Government will operate, | 2:32:41 | 2:32:43 | |
but will it make any difference? | 2:32:43 | 2:32:45 | |
We'll speak to one US politician who believes it will | 2:32:45 | 2:32:48 | |
and we'll also hear her thoughts on the battle for the White House. | 2:32:48 | 2:32:51 | |
And with their thoughts on all of that and more, | 2:32:51 | 2:32:53 | |
my guests of the day are Felicity Huston and Brian Feeney. | 2:32:53 | 2:32:56 | |
It was set up with the purpose of transforming working-class | 2:33:02 | 2:33:05 | |
communities, but since its creation the Social Investment Fund | 2:33:05 | 2:33:08 | |
has been making headlines for all the wrong reasons. | 2:33:08 | 2:33:11 | |
Firstly, there were complaints the money wasn't getting | 2:33:11 | 2:33:13 | |
to communities quickly enough. | 2:33:13 | 2:33:15 | |
Now, the pot of £80 million has all been allocated, | 2:33:15 | 2:33:18 | |
but some MLAs are concerned about almost £2 million | 2:33:18 | 2:33:21 | |
of the funding going to a group with links to the UDA. | 2:33:21 | 2:33:24 | |
Emma Little-Pengelly, you were involved in this project | 2:33:24 | 2:33:27 | |
for quite some time, is it right to be giving | 2:33:27 | 2:33:30 | |
£1.7 million in Government funding to an organisation | 2:33:30 | 2:33:34 | |
some of whose key personnel have links | 2:33:34 | 2:33:36 | |
to a proscribed Loyalist organisation? | 2:33:36 | 2:33:38 | |
I think first of all it's worth looking at the scheme | 2:33:38 | 2:33:41 | |
of the Social Investment Fund. | 2:33:41 | 2:33:42 | |
It was an attempt to do things differently. | 2:33:42 | 2:33:44 | |
It was a bottom-up project. | 2:33:44 | 2:33:46 | |
It was very much about the community identifying problems | 2:33:46 | 2:33:48 | |
and identifying solutions. | 2:33:48 | 2:33:50 | |
In terms of the organisation you mentioned, | 2:33:50 | 2:33:52 | |
it's not just the Social Investment Fund that funds Charter NI. | 2:33:52 | 2:33:55 | |
Charter NI is funded by up to 15 different organisations, | 2:33:55 | 2:33:59 | |
including the Housing Executive, | 2:33:59 | 2:34:01 | |
Belfast City Council, North Down Council. | 2:34:01 | 2:34:04 | |
So there's a range of funders there. All funders, | 2:34:04 | 2:34:07 | |
like in the Executive Office and with the Social Investment Fund | 2:34:07 | 2:34:10 | |
have to assure themselves that this is a legitimate organisation, | 2:34:10 | 2:34:13 | |
there are legitimate governance arrangements in place | 2:34:13 | 2:34:16 | |
and that is what has been done in this case. | 2:34:16 | 2:34:18 | |
I don't think anybody's questioning that. | 2:34:18 | 2:34:20 | |
But what people are asking questions about is this employability scheme | 2:34:20 | 2:34:23 | |
which is directly funded by the Social Investment Fund, | 2:34:23 | 2:34:26 | |
to the tune of £1.7 million when key personnel in that organisation | 2:34:26 | 2:34:31 | |
have direct links to the UDA. | 2:34:31 | 2:34:33 | |
Are you comfortable about that? | 2:34:33 | 2:34:35 | |
Well, I think, first of all, and my party leader's made this very clear, | 2:34:35 | 2:34:38 | |
we will not be leaving the Loyalist community behind. | 2:34:38 | 2:34:40 | |
We want to work with the Loyalist community but what we are also | 2:34:40 | 2:34:43 | |
very clear about is that those people within the community | 2:34:43 | 2:34:46 | |
that are still involved in things like criminality and drugs | 2:34:46 | 2:34:48 | |
have no place in the new Northern Ireland. They've no place | 2:34:48 | 2:34:51 | |
in delivering these schemes. | 2:34:51 | 2:34:52 | |
Now, when we look at, when our Government looks at an organisation | 2:34:52 | 2:34:55 | |
in terms of funding, we do listen to the police, | 2:34:55 | 2:34:57 | |
we take a look at the governance and we have to satisfy ourselves, | 2:34:57 | 2:35:00 | |
absolutely have to satisfy ourselves... | 2:35:00 | 2:35:02 | |
Are you satisfied, then, | 2:35:02 | 2:35:03 | |
that Charter NI passes that governability test? | 2:35:03 | 2:35:08 | |
Because the chief executive of the organisation spent five years | 2:35:08 | 2:35:11 | |
in prison for armed robbery and possession of a firearm. | 2:35:11 | 2:35:15 | |
There's a senior figure in the UDA in East Belfast who | 2:35:15 | 2:35:18 | |
sits on Charter NI's board of directors | 2:35:18 | 2:35:21 | |
and his wife is a senior employee of the organisation. | 2:35:21 | 2:35:23 | |
And there are many community organisations | 2:35:23 | 2:35:25 | |
where people sit on the boards or perhaps are employed by them... | 2:35:25 | 2:35:28 | |
This one receiving £1.7 million of public money. | 2:35:28 | 2:35:30 | |
There are many others, like the West Belfast Festival, the Ashton Centre. | 2:35:30 | 2:35:34 | |
Yes, but we're talking about this one | 2:35:34 | 2:35:36 | |
and nearly £2 million of public money. | 2:35:36 | 2:35:38 | |
I'm asking you, are you satisfied that in this case this organisation | 2:35:38 | 2:35:43 | |
passes the governability test that you've just mentioned? | 2:35:43 | 2:35:46 | |
Absolutely, and if it didn't then Belfast City Council, | 2:35:46 | 2:35:48 | |
North Down Council, the Executive Office, couldn't fund it. | 2:35:48 | 2:35:51 | |
There is a system of checks and balances. | 2:35:51 | 2:35:53 | |
We've heard, and you've outlined already, there were concerns | 2:35:53 | 2:35:56 | |
about how quickly this scheme delivered. | 2:35:56 | 2:35:58 | |
One of the reasons it wasn't quick | 2:35:58 | 2:35:59 | |
was the number of checks and balances included | 2:35:59 | 2:36:01 | |
in terms of getting this money out. | 2:36:01 | 2:36:03 | |
They've gone through full business case, the economists, | 2:36:03 | 2:36:05 | |
the governance, have been scrutinised. | 2:36:05 | 2:36:07 | |
If we weren't satisfied by that, | 2:36:07 | 2:36:08 | |
then this money would not be going to that organisation. | 2:36:08 | 2:36:10 | |
Chris Lyttle, are you satisfied? | 2:36:10 | 2:36:12 | |
Well, there are some good people in good organisations that have tried | 2:36:12 | 2:36:16 | |
to make the most of the Social Investment Fund, | 2:36:16 | 2:36:18 | |
but it has been beset by a lack of openness and delay from its outset. | 2:36:18 | 2:36:23 | |
We had a select group of organisations invited | 2:36:23 | 2:36:26 | |
for the launch of the event. | 2:36:26 | 2:36:28 | |
The steering groups took a year to be appointed. | 2:36:28 | 2:36:31 | |
When they were appointed, they were given meagrely three months | 2:36:31 | 2:36:34 | |
to work with consultants to invite applications and to work | 2:36:34 | 2:36:37 | |
those up to an adequate standard, which is why it has taken around | 2:36:37 | 2:36:41 | |
four years for OFMDFM officials to get those programmes up to standard. | 2:36:41 | 2:36:46 | |
Furthermore, the steering groups were advised in | 2:36:46 | 2:36:48 | |
relation to the appointment of lead partner organisations | 2:36:48 | 2:36:51 | |
that those lead partner organisations | 2:36:51 | 2:36:53 | |
could only be appointed from the membership of the steering groups | 2:36:53 | 2:36:56 | |
that were appointed by OFMDFM, DUP | 2:36:56 | 2:36:59 | |
and Sinn Fein, and questions were raised as to why that wasn't | 2:36:59 | 2:37:03 | |
a more open application process for access to these monies. | 2:37:03 | 2:37:07 | |
Furthermore, there were executive programmes ongoing, | 2:37:07 | 2:37:11 | |
in the Employment and Learning Department for example, | 2:37:11 | 2:37:13 | |
that had £9 million funds | 2:37:13 | 2:37:16 | |
that managed to create access to education and employment | 2:37:16 | 2:37:19 | |
for around 5,000 young people. | 2:37:19 | 2:37:22 | |
That experienced cuts whilst this £80 million fund | 2:37:22 | 2:37:25 | |
was held in abeyance, so there have been difficulties from day one | 2:37:25 | 2:37:28 | |
in relation to the programme and it might be interesting to ask | 2:37:28 | 2:37:32 | |
if it's so effective, if OFMDFM are going to do this programme again. | 2:37:32 | 2:37:35 | |
Well, we'll come on to that in a second or two, | 2:37:35 | 2:37:37 | |
but just to stay on this point for a moment more, | 2:37:37 | 2:37:39 | |
are you saying that you believe there are other groups in | 2:37:39 | 2:37:42 | |
the communities at grassroots level | 2:37:42 | 2:37:44 | |
who would have been equally capable of delivering all of these projects, | 2:37:44 | 2:37:47 | |
which simply didn't get an opportunity to apply to run them? | 2:37:47 | 2:37:52 | |
Well, they certainly didn't get an opportunity | 2:37:52 | 2:37:54 | |
to apply to be the managing organisations. | 2:37:54 | 2:37:56 | |
It was from the membership | 2:37:56 | 2:37:57 | |
of the steering groups, is my understanding. | 2:37:57 | 2:38:00 | |
If that's the case, that's not acceptable, is it? | 2:38:00 | 2:38:02 | |
What happened to openness and transparency in government? | 2:38:02 | 2:38:04 | |
This was a very different way of doing a project, and it's very much | 2:38:04 | 2:38:07 | |
-within the context of... -But it was a flawed way. That's the charge. | 2:38:07 | 2:38:10 | |
But if you look at the new Programme for Government, it's very much | 2:38:10 | 2:38:13 | |
about doing things differently. Now, we could have given the money | 2:38:13 | 2:38:16 | |
to existing schemes and existing organisations but we would've | 2:38:16 | 2:38:18 | |
got the same results that we were getting | 2:38:18 | 2:38:20 | |
and we needed something to change. | 2:38:20 | 2:38:21 | |
5,000 people into employment. | 2:38:21 | 2:38:24 | |
Hang on, this fund goes way back | 2:38:24 | 2:38:26 | |
beyond the new Programme for Government. | 2:38:26 | 2:38:27 | |
I mean, it's been five, nearly six years in the making. | 2:38:27 | 2:38:30 | |
But this set the seeds of looking at outcomes-based, | 2:38:30 | 2:38:33 | |
a different way of doing things, | 2:38:33 | 2:38:34 | |
trying to mix things up, and very much it was - | 2:38:34 | 2:38:37 | |
and Chris sat on the steering group, so Chris is aware - | 2:38:37 | 2:38:39 | |
that there was a very wide consultation process, | 2:38:39 | 2:38:42 | |
getting ideas from the maximum number of people. | 2:38:42 | 2:38:44 | |
This wasn't a closed scheme, | 2:38:44 | 2:38:45 | |
this was an idea of people putting in their ideas. | 2:38:45 | 2:38:47 | |
He's mentioned in terms of the managing organisations for this, | 2:38:47 | 2:38:51 | |
and Chris was part of those discussions. | 2:38:51 | 2:38:53 | |
There was a wide discussion about what way this would work. | 2:38:53 | 2:38:56 | |
We either went out to public procurement, we tendered for that, | 2:38:56 | 2:38:59 | |
which is a very lengthy process and you end up getting | 2:38:59 | 2:39:01 | |
the same types of organisations coming through, | 2:39:01 | 2:39:03 | |
which didn't produce the results before. | 2:39:03 | 2:39:04 | |
So this was very much about working with the community... | 2:39:04 | 2:39:07 | |
So it's a gamble? You accept it's a gamble? | 2:39:07 | 2:39:09 | |
No, it is based on a lot of thinking out there. | 2:39:09 | 2:39:11 | |
It's based on a lot of research. | 2:39:11 | 2:39:13 | |
You're going to hear about Mark Freeman | 2:39:13 | 2:39:15 | |
and turning the curve, and outcomes-based. | 2:39:15 | 2:39:17 | |
This was very much what this was based on. | 2:39:17 | 2:39:19 | |
It was based on doing things differently | 2:39:19 | 2:39:21 | |
to try to get a better result. | 2:39:21 | 2:39:22 | |
Some people might call it a gamble | 2:39:22 | 2:39:24 | |
but I would say it's worth taking that risk | 2:39:24 | 2:39:25 | |
to get a better outcome and better results. | 2:39:25 | 2:39:28 | |
Yeah, but you're assuming that is the case, | 2:39:28 | 2:39:30 | |
you're assuming it will work out that way, but you can't be sure. | 2:39:30 | 2:39:34 | |
You've said that the process of openness and | 2:39:34 | 2:39:36 | |
transparency in appointing the groups you set to one side | 2:39:36 | 2:39:39 | |
so that you wouldn't get the same groups coming forward again, | 2:39:39 | 2:39:42 | |
but you're taking a gamble on the groups that might come through | 2:39:42 | 2:39:44 | |
and you opened yourself up to the criticism | 2:39:44 | 2:39:46 | |
-about Charter NI for a start. -People will always get criticised | 2:39:46 | 2:39:49 | |
once they try to do things differently. | 2:39:49 | 2:39:50 | |
-But this is public money. -I think the issue here is, | 2:39:50 | 2:39:52 | |
what's the alternative? We keep doing what we've always done. | 2:39:52 | 2:39:55 | |
We keep putting this money in the same way, | 2:39:55 | 2:39:57 | |
through the same organisations, doing the same things. | 2:39:57 | 2:39:59 | |
If we do that, we're never going to change anything. | 2:39:59 | 2:40:02 | |
So, in this case, you end up with an organisation where key personnel | 2:40:02 | 2:40:05 | |
have a link to a Loyalist terrorist group. | 2:40:05 | 2:40:08 | |
And that doesn't make you uncomfortable? | 2:40:08 | 2:40:10 | |
This is an organisation that includes people with a past, | 2:40:10 | 2:40:12 | |
as do many, many community organisations. | 2:40:12 | 2:40:14 | |
This was about inclusion. | 2:40:14 | 2:40:15 | |
This was about saying to communities and community organisations, | 2:40:15 | 2:40:18 | |
"If you want to transform, if you want to get involved | 2:40:18 | 2:40:21 | |
"in proper delivering of services to the community, | 2:40:21 | 2:40:24 | |
"then there are a set of criteria there." | 2:40:24 | 2:40:26 | |
We have to look at governance and, in terms of Charter NI, | 2:40:26 | 2:40:29 | |
there's a board there, there's strong governance. | 2:40:29 | 2:40:31 | |
That is checked by every single funding organisation. | 2:40:31 | 2:40:34 | |
It's a good organisation delivering services. | 2:40:34 | 2:40:36 | |
So, belt and braces, | 2:40:36 | 2:40:38 | |
safety net still in place, says Emma Little-Pengelly | 2:40:38 | 2:40:41 | |
I think I've outlined how that's not the case. | 2:40:41 | 2:40:43 | |
I would say that Charter NI is involved in positive work. | 2:40:43 | 2:40:47 | |
Bonfire management schemes, mural replacements, childcare schemes. | 2:40:47 | 2:40:51 | |
So what's the problem? | 2:40:51 | 2:40:52 | |
Well, I've outlined the total lack | 2:40:52 | 2:40:54 | |
of openness and transparency in the process. | 2:40:54 | 2:40:56 | |
And Emma Little-Pengelly has explained why, | 2:40:56 | 2:40:58 | |
in these specific circumstances, another route had to be taken. | 2:40:58 | 2:41:02 | |
She paints a picture that existing programmes weren't working, | 2:41:02 | 2:41:04 | |
and that existing organisations weren't working. | 2:41:04 | 2:41:07 | |
The youth employment strategy that had 5,000 young people | 2:41:07 | 2:41:12 | |
into education and employment was working with further education | 2:41:12 | 2:41:15 | |
colleges, it was working with the community and voluntary sector, | 2:41:15 | 2:41:18 | |
who experienced significant cuts during this time when this lack of open | 2:41:18 | 2:41:22 | |
and transparent process was taking years to be completed. | 2:41:22 | 2:41:25 | |
Are you concerned, in east Belfast, that individuals who may | 2:41:25 | 2:41:29 | |
have been victims of the UDA would be put off applying for support | 2:41:29 | 2:41:35 | |
under this particular scheme? | 2:41:35 | 2:41:37 | |
Is there any evidence that that is the case, | 2:41:37 | 2:41:39 | |
because if there was evidence, you would surely know about it? | 2:41:39 | 2:41:42 | |
Well, it's absolutely essential that anyone involved in community work | 2:41:42 | 2:41:46 | |
is able to invite involvement from across the entire community, | 2:41:46 | 2:41:50 | |
and certainly cannot be involved | 2:41:50 | 2:41:52 | |
in any way in an active paramilitary organisation. | 2:41:52 | 2:41:56 | |
There have been serious allegations made, by BBC Spotlight, | 2:41:56 | 2:42:00 | |
and I think we need to hear much more from OFMDFM and from the police | 2:42:00 | 2:42:04 | |
as to what they're doing to respond to those allegations. | 2:42:04 | 2:42:07 | |
Is the scheme going to keep going? Will there be more money? | 2:42:07 | 2:42:10 | |
My understanding is that we're now on the delivery phase | 2:42:10 | 2:42:13 | |
for the entire 80 million. | 2:42:13 | 2:42:14 | |
That will probably take a number of years, in terms of the roll-out. | 2:42:14 | 2:42:17 | |
Many of these schemes are multi-year schemes. | 2:42:17 | 2:42:18 | |
The employment scheme, for example, will run, I think, over three years. | 2:42:18 | 2:42:22 | |
So I suspect that what will happen is that we will assess and evaluate | 2:42:22 | 2:42:25 | |
has it been effective, what's been effective, what hasn't worked | 2:42:25 | 2:42:28 | |
so well, what has worked well and that will all then be taken | 2:42:28 | 2:42:31 | |
as learning into a next phase or a new scheme or a new approach. | 2:42:31 | 2:42:34 | |
In a sentence, if you would, | 2:42:34 | 2:42:36 | |
what are your reflections on chairing the Finance Committee | 2:42:36 | 2:42:39 | |
on Wednesday, where the Finance Minister Mairtin O Muilleoir | 2:42:39 | 2:42:42 | |
appeared before you and you had a testy conversation | 2:42:42 | 2:42:45 | |
-over quite some time? -Well, the committee | 2:42:45 | 2:42:47 | |
wanted to give the opportunity | 2:42:47 | 2:42:48 | |
to the Finance Minister to make it clear that he had nothing to hide. | 2:42:48 | 2:42:52 | |
It was certainly a more stormy meeting than I was anticipating, | 2:42:52 | 2:42:55 | |
because I felt that he would take the opportunity | 2:42:55 | 2:42:58 | |
to be clear he had nothing to hide. | 2:42:58 | 2:43:00 | |
I think many people walked away from that meeting | 2:43:00 | 2:43:02 | |
thinking perhaps he does. | 2:43:02 | 2:43:03 | |
Is that what you believe? | 2:43:03 | 2:43:05 | |
Well, we tried to get the bottom of a range of issues. | 2:43:05 | 2:43:07 | |
He was very clear about a high level he had nothing to do with particular | 2:43:07 | 2:43:10 | |
exchanges, but he wouldn't be | 2:43:10 | 2:43:12 | |
and he didn't want to be questioned about any of the detail around that. | 2:43:12 | 2:43:15 | |
He has admitted that he had a number of pre-meetings and conversations | 2:43:15 | 2:43:18 | |
in relation to Jamie Bryson. I think that was probably | 2:43:18 | 2:43:20 | |
the most interesting aspect of it. | 2:43:20 | 2:43:21 | |
I think we probably do need to tease that out a bit. | 2:43:21 | 2:43:24 | |
And of course he made it abundantly clear at that meeting, | 2:43:24 | 2:43:26 | |
as you know very well, that he had no connection whatsoever | 2:43:26 | 2:43:28 | |
with any of the conversations that might have taken place beforehand. | 2:43:28 | 2:43:31 | |
Thanks, both, very much indeed. | 2:43:31 | 2:43:33 | |
Let's just hear the thoughts of my guests of the day, | 2:43:33 | 2:43:35 | |
Felicity Huston and Brian Feeney. | 2:43:35 | 2:43:37 | |
Felicity, what do you make of...? | 2:43:37 | 2:43:40 | |
Let's talk about the £1.7 million that's going from the | 2:43:40 | 2:43:44 | |
Social Investment Fund to this particular organisation, Charter NI. | 2:43:44 | 2:43:47 | |
Acceptable or not acceptable, in your view? | 2:43:47 | 2:43:49 | |
I think, Northern Ireland, if we eliminated anyone with a dodgy past, | 2:43:49 | 2:43:52 | |
people who have served time and so on, there would be a lot of spaces | 2:43:52 | 2:43:56 | |
up at Stormont. | 2:43:56 | 2:43:57 | |
That is what we have actually embraced with the Good Friday Agreement. | 2:43:57 | 2:44:00 | |
Yes, but those people, the argument runs, have been elected and they have been open | 2:44:00 | 2:44:04 | |
-about their past. -Yes. | 2:44:04 | 2:44:05 | |
This is a different circumstance... | 2:44:05 | 2:44:07 | |
-I doubt... -..where there wasn't the normal process of procurement. | 2:44:07 | 2:44:12 | |
That's another matter. | 2:44:12 | 2:44:13 | |
Northern Ireland suffers terribly from that. | 2:44:13 | 2:44:16 | |
This conflict of interest thing, it's fine, you sit on a board, and you allocate money to | 2:44:16 | 2:44:20 | |
an organisation involved in it. That's nothing to do with | 2:44:20 | 2:44:24 | |
-Charter NI or anything else and who their membership is... -You're not bothered them? | 2:44:24 | 2:44:27 | |
You're happy with this £1.7 million going to this organisation? | 2:44:27 | 2:44:30 | |
No. I think it is very wrong that somebody sits on a board and agrees | 2:44:30 | 2:44:32 | |
to give money to an organisation they have an involvement with. | 2:44:32 | 2:44:35 | |
But that happens throughout public life in Northern Ireland. | 2:44:35 | 2:44:38 | |
That's not special to this particular fund. | 2:44:38 | 2:44:40 | |
I don't know an awful lot about these guys but | 2:44:40 | 2:44:43 | |
it is a fact of life in Northern Ireland that we have paramilitaries, | 2:44:43 | 2:44:46 | |
and people with paramilitary connections throughout our structures, | 2:44:46 | 2:44:49 | |
and we have chosen to accept it, turn a blind eye, or work with it. | 2:44:49 | 2:44:54 | |
-OK. -It's not right, but that's how we live. | 2:44:54 | 2:44:56 | |
Just to be clear, the £1.7 million will be used by Charter NI for | 2:44:56 | 2:45:00 | |
employability projects. | 2:45:00 | 2:45:02 | |
That's what it's meant to deliver on the ground. | 2:45:02 | 2:45:05 | |
Brian Feeney, what are your thoughts about this particular case, | 2:45:05 | 2:45:09 | |
before we talk about the wider issues? | 2:45:09 | 2:45:12 | |
No public money should be given to any organisation which has | 2:45:12 | 2:45:15 | |
people from the UDA or any other proscribed terrorist organisation | 2:45:15 | 2:45:18 | |
sitting on it. | 2:45:18 | 2:45:20 | |
So you think that Charter NI should be ruled out of this process? | 2:45:20 | 2:45:23 | |
Because if you have people - and the Spotlight programme was clear about it - | 2:45:23 | 2:45:27 | |
if you have people with known connections to the UDA, which is an illegal organisation | 2:45:27 | 2:45:31 | |
which is active, it's only two months since they last killed someone. | 2:45:31 | 2:45:35 | |
They murdered a man in north Belfast. | 2:45:35 | 2:45:38 | |
There is nightly trouble in Carrickfergus. It is the UDA. | 2:45:38 | 2:45:42 | |
They expelled a dozen people from Tiger Bay in the last 12 months. | 2:45:42 | 2:45:46 | |
The gang leader who was involved in that is now on the run. | 2:45:46 | 2:45:51 | |
I mean, this is an organisation which is active, illegal, has never | 2:45:51 | 2:45:55 | |
decommissioned its weapons, and should not have anyone near public money. | 2:45:55 | 2:46:00 | |
OK. | 2:46:00 | 2:46:01 | |
But there are lots of very good people with very impressive | 2:46:01 | 2:46:04 | |
-track records who are involved as well... -Absolutely. | 2:46:04 | 2:46:06 | |
..in Charter NI and they seriously outnumber those small number | 2:46:06 | 2:46:08 | |
-of individuals... -Yes. -..who have connections, direct or indirect, to the UDA. | 2:46:08 | 2:46:11 | |
It doesn't matter what the small number is. The people with the small number of | 2:46:11 | 2:46:15 | |
connections should be thrown off. | 2:46:15 | 2:46:17 | |
It's as simple as that. But we have this absurd... And it's not the only organisation. | 2:46:17 | 2:46:21 | |
We have this absurd position where you have the Fresh Start Agreement | 2:46:21 | 2:46:24 | |
where people are talking about establishing | 2:46:24 | 2:46:26 | |
an organisation to get rid of paramilitaries, and instead of | 2:46:26 | 2:46:28 | |
that they're bribing paramilitaries to be good boys and it is not working. | 2:46:28 | 2:46:33 | |
This has been going on for years. They give money to the UVF, they give money to the UDA, | 2:46:33 | 2:46:39 | |
"Please don't wreck the place. We'll make you community leaders. We'll make you community workers." | 2:46:39 | 2:46:44 | |
-It doesn't work. -All right. OK. That's your view. | 2:46:44 | 2:46:46 | |
Clearly, obviously, and you would accept, others people won't necessarily agree with it. | 2:46:46 | 2:46:50 | |
-It's a very interesting... -Yeah, but they'd be wrong. | 2:46:50 | 2:46:52 | |
OK, in your view, of course. It's an interesting conversation piece. | 2:46:52 | 2:46:55 | |
Thank you very much. | 2:46:55 | 2:46:57 | |
Let's take a look back at the political week in 60 Seconds, | 2:46:57 | 2:46:59 | |
with Gareth Gordon. | 2:46:59 | 2:47:01 | |
Was the Finance Minister in on Daithi McKay's coaching of | 2:47:05 | 2:47:09 | |
Jamie Bryson? How many ways can you say no? | 2:47:09 | 2:47:12 | |
I have no involvement whatsoever with this particular affair. None, zilch, nada, nothing. | 2:47:12 | 2:47:18 | |
Danny Kennedy backed calls for the Orange Order to lift the ban | 2:47:18 | 2:47:22 | |
on members like him attending Catholic services. | 2:47:22 | 2:47:26 | |
The Orange institution will take its time and arrive at what I hope will be a sensible decision. | 2:47:26 | 2:47:33 | |
At the Conservative Conference the Secretary of State | 2:47:33 | 2:47:35 | |
tried to calm fears a hard border is looking more likely. | 2:47:35 | 2:47:38 | |
No-one wants to see a return to the borders of the past. | 2:47:38 | 2:47:43 | |
But Martin McGuinness has made his mind up. | 2:47:43 | 2:47:46 | |
What the Tories are doing is all about themselves. | 2:47:46 | 2:47:49 | |
They don't give tuppence for the island of Ireland, north or south. | 2:47:49 | 2:47:54 | |
The real controversy of the Conference involved a tizz over fizz and trouble over bubbles. | 2:47:54 | 2:47:59 | |
Somehow it got lost in translation and it became a champagne reception, | 2:47:59 | 2:48:01 | |
but you know, you couldn't pay for the amount of attention we have had a relation to that matter. | 2:48:01 | 2:48:05 | |
Arlene Foster, unrepentant about that controversial drinks do in Birmingham. | 2:48:10 | 2:48:15 | |
Now, the Executive has adopted a new way to manage the targets it | 2:48:15 | 2:48:18 | |
has set out in its draft Programme for Government. | 2:48:18 | 2:48:21 | |
We mentioned it a few moments ago. So will the new outcome-based approach work? | 2:48:21 | 2:48:25 | |
And what are the pitfalls ministers, and their senior civil servants, | 2:48:25 | 2:48:28 | |
need to be aware of? | 2:48:28 | 2:48:29 | |
The US politician Diana Urban has pioneered the system in Connecticut. | 2:48:29 | 2:48:33 | |
She's here to take part in a conference this week, | 2:48:33 | 2:48:35 | |
and she's with me now. | 2:48:35 | 2:48:37 | |
You're very welcome to Sunday Politics. Very nice to have you on the programme. | 2:48:37 | 2:48:41 | |
Tell me why are you such an advocate of the outcome-based approach? | 2:48:41 | 2:48:46 | |
Well, Mark, first of all I'm delighted to be here and to have | 2:48:46 | 2:48:49 | |
Celine from the National Children's Board get a hold of | 2:48:49 | 2:48:51 | |
me to talk about outcomes-based accountability. | 2:48:51 | 2:48:54 | |
I was eager to come over because of the success we have had | 2:48:54 | 2:48:56 | |
in Connecticut. | 2:48:56 | 2:48:58 | |
To put this in terms so that your viewers can understand, | 2:48:58 | 2:49:01 | |
Connecticut has a yearly budget of about 20 billion. | 2:49:01 | 2:49:04 | |
Of that 20 billion, 5.6 billion is spent on children and families. | 2:49:04 | 2:49:09 | |
I'm an economist in my other life, so when I came into the legislature, | 2:49:09 | 2:49:13 | |
I was like, "So what are we getting for that 5.6 billion? | 2:49:13 | 2:49:16 | |
"Can you tell me whether children have less asthma? | 2:49:16 | 2:49:19 | |
"Can you tell me whether children are reading better? | 2:49:19 | 2:49:22 | |
"Can you tell me whether children teen pregnancies are down? | 2:49:22 | 2:49:24 | |
"Can you tell me whether restraint and seclusion in our schools is a problem? | 2:49:24 | 2:49:28 | |
"Can you tell me whether children are graduating, whether they're attending school?" | 2:49:28 | 2:49:31 | |
The answer, pretty much, is, "Um... We don't really have data on that. | 2:49:31 | 2:49:36 | |
"So, Representative, we can tell you that if you give us more money, | 2:49:36 | 2:49:41 | |
"we are sure we'll be able to achieve these things." | 2:49:41 | 2:49:44 | |
So that's where I was introduced to outcomes-based accountability, | 2:49:44 | 2:49:48 | |
in the States we call it results-based accountability, | 2:49:48 | 2:49:52 | |
and put together a team to say, "How do we know what we are getting for our tax dollars?" | 2:49:52 | 2:50:00 | |
I suppose one of the criticisms is though that it is only a useful | 2:50:00 | 2:50:04 | |
mechanism when you look back at what the outcome or the result has been. | 2:50:04 | 2:50:07 | |
We have focused very much up to now on setting | 2:50:07 | 2:50:10 | |
a target and trying to achieve that, and that seems to be one of the key | 2:50:10 | 2:50:14 | |
differences, and one of the reasons that people in this part of the | 2:50:14 | 2:50:16 | |
world are uncomfortable, nervous about the change. | 2:50:16 | 2:50:19 | |
Well, I'm going to argue that point with you immediately. | 2:50:19 | 2:50:22 | |
If you look, we have an online report card, CT Kids Report Card.org, | 2:50:22 | 2:50:26 | |
and you can see we go back and look at what has happened in the past | 2:50:26 | 2:50:31 | |
and then we do a graph that projects into the future. | 2:50:31 | 2:50:36 | |
Were we not to do anything, what would happen with asthma? | 2:50:36 | 2:50:40 | |
What would happen with children's reading? | 2:50:40 | 2:50:43 | |
What if we simply allowed the curve that had been established to continue? | 2:50:43 | 2:50:47 | |
And I can tell you that children wouldn't be reading, there would be more | 2:50:47 | 2:50:50 | |
asthma, there would be more teen pregnancies, that the programmes that we had in place, | 2:50:50 | 2:50:55 | |
a good deal of them were not getting us where we wanted to go. | 2:50:55 | 2:50:59 | |
OK, but critics of the approach say it is flawed, and it's flawed for the following reason. | 2:50:59 | 2:51:02 | |
It's vague, it's nebulous, it's impossible to evaluate. | 2:51:02 | 2:51:06 | |
How do you respond to that criticism? | 2:51:06 | 2:51:08 | |
It's almost difficult for me to respond to that because I have | 2:51:09 | 2:51:13 | |
been in the middle of this for ten years. | 2:51:13 | 2:51:15 | |
I understand that people have difficulty with data, | 2:51:15 | 2:51:18 | |
but this is based on data, it's data-informed decision-making model. | 2:51:18 | 2:51:22 | |
So how can I tell you it's getting better? | 2:51:22 | 2:51:24 | |
Because I know that we are getting less children with asthma, | 2:51:24 | 2:51:27 | |
I know that children are now attending school when they weren't before. | 2:51:27 | 2:51:30 | |
I can also tell you that restraint and seclusion... | 2:51:30 | 2:51:33 | |
I'm not sure if that's a problem here in Ireland, but we have children with | 2:51:33 | 2:51:37 | |
mental health issues that are being restrained and secluded in school. | 2:51:37 | 2:51:41 | |
How can they learn? | 2:51:41 | 2:51:43 | |
I know now that we are tackling that problem | 2:51:43 | 2:51:45 | |
so I can tell you from data that we are getting better. | 2:51:45 | 2:51:48 | |
Children are better off, families are better off. | 2:51:48 | 2:51:51 | |
One of the goals here I suppose, | 2:51:51 | 2:51:54 | |
one of the outcome-based goals, is to have more people in employment. | 2:51:54 | 2:51:58 | |
Everybody wants more people in employment but simply saying, | 2:51:58 | 2:52:01 | |
"That is our goal, better jobs and more of them", doesn't necessarily mean you | 2:52:01 | 2:52:06 | |
-are going to deliver it in policy terms. -You are spot on. | 2:52:06 | 2:52:09 | |
That is what a lot of programmes will tell you. | 2:52:09 | 2:52:12 | |
You'll say, "So your programme on the apprenticeship, how is it doing?" | 2:52:12 | 2:52:16 | |
"Oh, well, Representative, we had 600 people." | 2:52:16 | 2:52:19 | |
And then that's the end. I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. | 2:52:19 | 2:52:21 | |
"You had 600 people. How many of them got jobs? | 2:52:21 | 2:52:23 | |
"And how many got jobs that lasted more than six months? | 2:52:23 | 2:52:27 | |
"And how many of them got jobs that allowed them to support their families?" | 2:52:27 | 2:52:32 | |
-OK. -I'm really doing this. -OK. You're obviously passionate about it | 2:52:32 | 2:52:37 | |
and it's going to be very interesting for people here to learn from your experience. | 2:52:37 | 2:52:40 | |
It works, you say, in Connecticut | 2:52:40 | 2:52:42 | |
We'll see if it works in Northern Ireland. | 2:52:42 | 2:52:45 | |
I would add this also. We looked for a model that people could understand. | 2:52:45 | 2:52:49 | |
Like, your average person in the street could say, "Now I can | 2:52:49 | 2:52:53 | |
"look at this and I know what is going on, | 2:52:53 | 2:52:55 | |
"with children and families in the state of Connecticut." | 2:52:55 | 2:52:58 | |
If said to you, "Here is performance-based budgeting," | 2:52:58 | 2:53:00 | |
you'd be like, "Um... Um..." | 2:53:00 | 2:53:03 | |
I taught performance-based budgeting. It's a hard thing to understand. This isn't. | 2:53:03 | 2:53:08 | |
I'll tell you what's a hard thing to understand, | 2:53:08 | 2:53:11 | |
and that's the US Presidential race which is under way at the moment. | 2:53:11 | 2:53:14 | |
-You were a Republican for four terms, you are now a Democrat. -Yes. | 2:53:14 | 2:53:18 | |
12 very senior Republicans have come out now and withdrawn their support for | 2:53:18 | 2:53:23 | |
Donald Trump in the wake of this latest scandal. | 2:53:23 | 2:53:26 | |
What is happening? | 2:53:26 | 2:53:28 | |
You know, Mark, I have to preface this by saying clearly Mr Trump has | 2:53:28 | 2:53:33 | |
touched a nerve in the public in the United States, and it is something | 2:53:33 | 2:53:39 | |
we need to pay attention to, that people feel they are disenfranchised. | 2:53:39 | 2:53:44 | |
That being said, the man is unfit to be President. | 2:53:44 | 2:53:48 | |
He has given permission to men to diss women, | 2:53:48 | 2:53:53 | |
and that, in my estimation, is incredibly unacceptable. | 2:53:53 | 2:53:57 | |
I am a female legislator in case you haven't noticed. I'm a girl. | 2:53:57 | 2:54:02 | |
And I have experienced sexual harassment, | 2:54:02 | 2:54:05 | |
in my 15 years in the Connecticut Legislature, and I have lots of | 2:54:05 | 2:54:09 | |
friends that have experienced it, and by Mr Trump saying this... | 2:54:09 | 2:54:14 | |
-OK. He doesn't help. -He doesn't help. | 2:54:14 | 2:54:17 | |
OK. We need to leave it there. Thank you very much indeed for coming in to join us. | 2:54:17 | 2:54:21 | |
Quick final word from Felicity and Brian, | 2:54:21 | 2:54:24 | |
and it needs to be quick. Is he dead in the water, Felicity? | 2:54:24 | 2:54:27 | |
I think that people won't really be surprised. | 2:54:27 | 2:54:30 | |
I had the peculiar experience of being a girl in an all-boys sixth form. | 2:54:30 | 2:54:32 | |
I know how boys and men talk. | 2:54:32 | 2:54:34 | |
That's how a lot of men get on. I think a lot of men will think that. | 2:54:34 | 2:54:37 | |
The point is, should we be surprised? | 2:54:37 | 2:54:39 | |
I think we should be disappointed but probably not surprised, | 2:54:39 | 2:54:41 | |
particularly given his career path. That's the sort of world he seems to have functioned in. | 2:54:41 | 2:54:45 | |
-It's awful. -You're not surprised, Brian? -Not in the least and no-one should be. | 2:54:45 | 2:54:48 | |
He's infamous for this sort of behaviour. | 2:54:48 | 2:54:50 | |
But he can't win. There aren't enough angry white men left to vote for him. | 2:54:50 | 2:54:54 | |
The demographics are against him. | 2:54:54 | 2:54:56 | |
Yes. But it's going to be a very interesting... | 2:54:56 | 2:54:59 | |
It's going to be fascinating, well, the debate tonight particularly. | 2:54:59 | 2:55:02 | |
Particularly. And no doubt we'll all be sitting up late into the night. Thank you both very much. | 2:55:02 | 2:55:06 | |
We need to leave it there. | 2:55:06 | 2:55:08 | |
That is it from Sunday Politics for this week. | 2:55:08 | 2:55:10 | |
Join me for Stormont Today, that's on BBC Two at 11.20 on Monday night, | 2:55:10 | 2:55:13 | |
but for now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching. Bye-bye. | 2:55:13 | 2:55:16 |