09/10/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


09/10/2016

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SUNDAY POLITICS NIC C054J/02 BRD000000

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Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics.

2:32:142:32:16

After years of delay, all £80 million

2:32:162:32:19

of the fund set up to help improve deprived communities

2:32:192:32:22

has been allocated.

2:32:222:32:23

But questions are now being asked about why almost £2 million

2:32:232:32:26

of the Social Investment Fund is being managed by a group

2:32:262:32:29

with links to the UDA.

2:32:292:32:31

We'll hear from one of the chief architects of the fund,

2:32:312:32:33

the DUP's Emma Little-Pengelly, and one of its chief critics,

2:32:332:32:37

the Alliance Party's Chris Lyttle.

2:32:372:32:39

Also today, the Executive has a new approach

2:32:392:32:41

to how its Programme for Government will operate,

2:32:412:32:43

but will it make any difference?

2:32:432:32:45

We'll speak to one US politician who believes it will

2:32:452:32:48

and we'll also hear her thoughts on the battle for the White House.

2:32:482:32:51

And with their thoughts on all of that and more,

2:32:512:32:53

my guests of the day are Felicity Huston and Brian Feeney.

2:32:532:32:56

It was set up with the purpose of transforming working-class

2:33:022:33:05

communities, but since its creation the Social Investment Fund

2:33:052:33:08

has been making headlines for all the wrong reasons.

2:33:082:33:11

Firstly, there were complaints the money wasn't getting

2:33:112:33:13

to communities quickly enough.

2:33:132:33:15

Now, the pot of £80 million has all been allocated,

2:33:152:33:18

but some MLAs are concerned about almost £2 million

2:33:182:33:21

of the funding going to a group with links to the UDA.

2:33:212:33:24

Emma Little-Pengelly, you were involved in this project

2:33:242:33:27

for quite some time, is it right to be giving

2:33:272:33:30

£1.7 million in Government funding to an organisation

2:33:302:33:34

some of whose key personnel have links

2:33:342:33:36

to a proscribed Loyalist organisation?

2:33:362:33:38

I think first of all it's worth looking at the scheme

2:33:382:33:41

of the Social Investment Fund.

2:33:412:33:42

It was an attempt to do things differently.

2:33:422:33:44

It was a bottom-up project.

2:33:442:33:46

It was very much about the community identifying problems

2:33:462:33:48

and identifying solutions.

2:33:482:33:50

In terms of the organisation you mentioned,

2:33:502:33:52

it's not just the Social Investment Fund that funds Charter NI.

2:33:522:33:55

Charter NI is funded by up to 15 different organisations,

2:33:552:33:59

including the Housing Executive,

2:33:592:34:01

Belfast City Council, North Down Council.

2:34:012:34:04

So there's a range of funders there. All funders,

2:34:042:34:07

like in the Executive Office and with the Social Investment Fund

2:34:072:34:10

have to assure themselves that this is a legitimate organisation,

2:34:102:34:13

there are legitimate governance arrangements in place

2:34:132:34:16

and that is what has been done in this case.

2:34:162:34:18

I don't think anybody's questioning that.

2:34:182:34:20

But what people are asking questions about is this employability scheme

2:34:202:34:23

which is directly funded by the Social Investment Fund,

2:34:232:34:26

to the tune of £1.7 million when key personnel in that organisation

2:34:262:34:31

have direct links to the UDA.

2:34:312:34:33

Are you comfortable about that?

2:34:332:34:35

Well, I think, first of all, and my party leader's made this very clear,

2:34:352:34:38

we will not be leaving the Loyalist community behind.

2:34:382:34:40

We want to work with the Loyalist community but what we are also

2:34:402:34:43

very clear about is that those people within the community

2:34:432:34:46

that are still involved in things like criminality and drugs

2:34:462:34:48

have no place in the new Northern Ireland. They've no place

2:34:482:34:51

in delivering these schemes.

2:34:512:34:52

Now, when we look at, when our Government looks at an organisation

2:34:522:34:55

in terms of funding, we do listen to the police,

2:34:552:34:57

we take a look at the governance and we have to satisfy ourselves,

2:34:572:35:00

absolutely have to satisfy ourselves...

2:35:002:35:02

Are you satisfied, then,

2:35:022:35:03

that Charter NI passes that governability test?

2:35:032:35:08

Because the chief executive of the organisation spent five years

2:35:082:35:11

in prison for armed robbery and possession of a firearm.

2:35:112:35:15

There's a senior figure in the UDA in East Belfast who

2:35:152:35:18

sits on Charter NI's board of directors

2:35:182:35:21

and his wife is a senior employee of the organisation.

2:35:212:35:23

And there are many community organisations

2:35:232:35:25

where people sit on the boards or perhaps are employed by them...

2:35:252:35:28

This one receiving £1.7 million of public money.

2:35:282:35:30

There are many others, like the West Belfast Festival, the Ashton Centre.

2:35:302:35:34

Yes, but we're talking about this one

2:35:342:35:36

and nearly £2 million of public money.

2:35:362:35:38

I'm asking you, are you satisfied that in this case this organisation

2:35:382:35:43

passes the governability test that you've just mentioned?

2:35:432:35:46

Absolutely, and if it didn't then Belfast City Council,

2:35:462:35:48

North Down Council, the Executive Office, couldn't fund it.

2:35:482:35:51

There is a system of checks and balances.

2:35:512:35:53

We've heard, and you've outlined already, there were concerns

2:35:532:35:56

about how quickly this scheme delivered.

2:35:562:35:58

One of the reasons it wasn't quick

2:35:582:35:59

was the number of checks and balances included

2:35:592:36:01

in terms of getting this money out.

2:36:012:36:03

They've gone through full business case, the economists,

2:36:032:36:05

the governance, have been scrutinised.

2:36:052:36:07

If we weren't satisfied by that,

2:36:072:36:08

then this money would not be going to that organisation.

2:36:082:36:10

Chris Lyttle, are you satisfied?

2:36:102:36:12

Well, there are some good people in good organisations that have tried

2:36:122:36:16

to make the most of the Social Investment Fund,

2:36:162:36:18

but it has been beset by a lack of openness and delay from its outset.

2:36:182:36:23

We had a select group of organisations invited

2:36:232:36:26

for the launch of the event.

2:36:262:36:28

The steering groups took a year to be appointed.

2:36:282:36:31

When they were appointed, they were given meagrely three months

2:36:312:36:34

to work with consultants to invite applications and to work

2:36:342:36:37

those up to an adequate standard, which is why it has taken around

2:36:372:36:41

four years for OFMDFM officials to get those programmes up to standard.

2:36:412:36:46

Furthermore, the steering groups were advised in

2:36:462:36:48

relation to the appointment of lead partner organisations

2:36:482:36:51

that those lead partner organisations

2:36:512:36:53

could only be appointed from the membership of the steering groups

2:36:532:36:56

that were appointed by OFMDFM, DUP

2:36:562:36:59

and Sinn Fein, and questions were raised as to why that wasn't

2:36:592:37:03

a more open application process for access to these monies.

2:37:032:37:07

Furthermore, there were executive programmes ongoing,

2:37:072:37:11

in the Employment and Learning Department for example,

2:37:112:37:13

that had £9 million funds

2:37:132:37:16

that managed to create access to education and employment

2:37:162:37:19

for around 5,000 young people.

2:37:192:37:22

That experienced cuts whilst this £80 million fund

2:37:222:37:25

was held in abeyance, so there have been difficulties from day one

2:37:252:37:28

in relation to the programme and it might be interesting to ask

2:37:282:37:32

if it's so effective, if OFMDFM are going to do this programme again.

2:37:322:37:35

Well, we'll come on to that in a second or two,

2:37:352:37:37

but just to stay on this point for a moment more,

2:37:372:37:39

are you saying that you believe there are other groups in

2:37:392:37:42

the communities at grassroots level

2:37:422:37:44

who would have been equally capable of delivering all of these projects,

2:37:442:37:47

which simply didn't get an opportunity to apply to run them?

2:37:472:37:52

Well, they certainly didn't get an opportunity

2:37:522:37:54

to apply to be the managing organisations.

2:37:542:37:56

It was from the membership

2:37:562:37:57

of the steering groups, is my understanding.

2:37:572:38:00

If that's the case, that's not acceptable, is it?

2:38:002:38:02

What happened to openness and transparency in government?

2:38:022:38:04

This was a very different way of doing a project, and it's very much

2:38:042:38:07

-within the context of...

-But it was a flawed way. That's the charge.

2:38:072:38:10

But if you look at the new Programme for Government, it's very much

2:38:102:38:13

about doing things differently. Now, we could have given the money

2:38:132:38:16

to existing schemes and existing organisations but we would've

2:38:162:38:18

got the same results that we were getting

2:38:182:38:20

and we needed something to change.

2:38:202:38:21

5,000 people into employment.

2:38:212:38:24

Hang on, this fund goes way back

2:38:242:38:26

beyond the new Programme for Government.

2:38:262:38:27

I mean, it's been five, nearly six years in the making.

2:38:272:38:30

But this set the seeds of looking at outcomes-based,

2:38:302:38:33

a different way of doing things,

2:38:332:38:34

trying to mix things up, and very much it was -

2:38:342:38:37

and Chris sat on the steering group, so Chris is aware -

2:38:372:38:39

that there was a very wide consultation process,

2:38:392:38:42

getting ideas from the maximum number of people.

2:38:422:38:44

This wasn't a closed scheme,

2:38:442:38:45

this was an idea of people putting in their ideas.

2:38:452:38:47

He's mentioned in terms of the managing organisations for this,

2:38:472:38:51

and Chris was part of those discussions.

2:38:512:38:53

There was a wide discussion about what way this would work.

2:38:532:38:56

We either went out to public procurement, we tendered for that,

2:38:562:38:59

which is a very lengthy process and you end up getting

2:38:592:39:01

the same types of organisations coming through,

2:39:012:39:03

which didn't produce the results before.

2:39:032:39:04

So this was very much about working with the community...

2:39:042:39:07

So it's a gamble? You accept it's a gamble?

2:39:072:39:09

No, it is based on a lot of thinking out there.

2:39:092:39:11

It's based on a lot of research.

2:39:112:39:13

You're going to hear about Mark Freeman

2:39:132:39:15

and turning the curve, and outcomes-based.

2:39:152:39:17

This was very much what this was based on.

2:39:172:39:19

It was based on doing things differently

2:39:192:39:21

to try to get a better result.

2:39:212:39:22

Some people might call it a gamble

2:39:222:39:24

but I would say it's worth taking that risk

2:39:242:39:25

to get a better outcome and better results.

2:39:252:39:28

Yeah, but you're assuming that is the case,

2:39:282:39:30

you're assuming it will work out that way, but you can't be sure.

2:39:302:39:34

You've said that the process of openness and

2:39:342:39:36

transparency in appointing the groups you set to one side

2:39:362:39:39

so that you wouldn't get the same groups coming forward again,

2:39:392:39:42

but you're taking a gamble on the groups that might come through

2:39:422:39:44

and you opened yourself up to the criticism

2:39:442:39:46

-about Charter NI for a start.

-People will always get criticised

2:39:462:39:49

once they try to do things differently.

2:39:492:39:50

-But this is public money.

-I think the issue here is,

2:39:502:39:52

what's the alternative? We keep doing what we've always done.

2:39:522:39:55

We keep putting this money in the same way,

2:39:552:39:57

through the same organisations, doing the same things.

2:39:572:39:59

If we do that, we're never going to change anything.

2:39:592:40:02

So, in this case, you end up with an organisation where key personnel

2:40:022:40:05

have a link to a Loyalist terrorist group.

2:40:052:40:08

And that doesn't make you uncomfortable?

2:40:082:40:10

This is an organisation that includes people with a past,

2:40:102:40:12

as do many, many community organisations.

2:40:122:40:14

This was about inclusion.

2:40:142:40:15

This was about saying to communities and community organisations,

2:40:152:40:18

"If you want to transform, if you want to get involved

2:40:182:40:21

"in proper delivering of services to the community,

2:40:212:40:24

"then there are a set of criteria there."

2:40:242:40:26

We have to look at governance and, in terms of Charter NI,

2:40:262:40:29

there's a board there, there's strong governance.

2:40:292:40:31

That is checked by every single funding organisation.

2:40:312:40:34

It's a good organisation delivering services.

2:40:342:40:36

So, belt and braces,

2:40:362:40:38

safety net still in place, says Emma Little-Pengelly

2:40:382:40:41

I think I've outlined how that's not the case.

2:40:412:40:43

I would say that Charter NI is involved in positive work.

2:40:432:40:47

Bonfire management schemes, mural replacements, childcare schemes.

2:40:472:40:51

So what's the problem?

2:40:512:40:52

Well, I've outlined the total lack

2:40:522:40:54

of openness and transparency in the process.

2:40:542:40:56

And Emma Little-Pengelly has explained why,

2:40:562:40:58

in these specific circumstances, another route had to be taken.

2:40:582:41:02

She paints a picture that existing programmes weren't working,

2:41:022:41:04

and that existing organisations weren't working.

2:41:042:41:07

The youth employment strategy that had 5,000 young people

2:41:072:41:12

into education and employment was working with further education

2:41:122:41:15

colleges, it was working with the community and voluntary sector,

2:41:152:41:18

who experienced significant cuts during this time when this lack of open

2:41:182:41:22

and transparent process was taking years to be completed.

2:41:222:41:25

Are you concerned, in east Belfast, that individuals who may

2:41:252:41:29

have been victims of the UDA would be put off applying for support

2:41:292:41:35

under this particular scheme?

2:41:352:41:37

Is there any evidence that that is the case,

2:41:372:41:39

because if there was evidence, you would surely know about it?

2:41:392:41:42

Well, it's absolutely essential that anyone involved in community work

2:41:422:41:46

is able to invite involvement from across the entire community,

2:41:462:41:50

and certainly cannot be involved

2:41:502:41:52

in any way in an active paramilitary organisation.

2:41:522:41:56

There have been serious allegations made, by BBC Spotlight,

2:41:562:42:00

and I think we need to hear much more from OFMDFM and from the police

2:42:002:42:04

as to what they're doing to respond to those allegations.

2:42:042:42:07

Is the scheme going to keep going? Will there be more money?

2:42:072:42:10

My understanding is that we're now on the delivery phase

2:42:102:42:13

for the entire 80 million.

2:42:132:42:14

That will probably take a number of years, in terms of the roll-out.

2:42:142:42:17

Many of these schemes are multi-year schemes.

2:42:172:42:18

The employment scheme, for example, will run, I think, over three years.

2:42:182:42:22

So I suspect that what will happen is that we will assess and evaluate

2:42:222:42:25

has it been effective, what's been effective, what hasn't worked

2:42:252:42:28

so well, what has worked well and that will all then be taken

2:42:282:42:31

as learning into a next phase or a new scheme or a new approach.

2:42:312:42:34

In a sentence, if you would,

2:42:342:42:36

what are your reflections on chairing the Finance Committee

2:42:362:42:39

on Wednesday, where the Finance Minister Mairtin O Muilleoir

2:42:392:42:42

appeared before you and you had a testy conversation

2:42:422:42:45

-over quite some time?

-Well, the committee

2:42:452:42:47

wanted to give the opportunity

2:42:472:42:48

to the Finance Minister to make it clear that he had nothing to hide.

2:42:482:42:52

It was certainly a more stormy meeting than I was anticipating,

2:42:522:42:55

because I felt that he would take the opportunity

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to be clear he had nothing to hide.

2:42:582:43:00

I think many people walked away from that meeting

2:43:002:43:02

thinking perhaps he does.

2:43:022:43:03

Is that what you believe?

2:43:032:43:05

Well, we tried to get the bottom of a range of issues.

2:43:052:43:07

He was very clear about a high level he had nothing to do with particular

2:43:072:43:10

exchanges, but he wouldn't be

2:43:102:43:12

and he didn't want to be questioned about any of the detail around that.

2:43:122:43:15

He has admitted that he had a number of pre-meetings and conversations

2:43:152:43:18

in relation to Jamie Bryson. I think that was probably

2:43:182:43:20

the most interesting aspect of it.

2:43:202:43:21

I think we probably do need to tease that out a bit.

2:43:212:43:24

And of course he made it abundantly clear at that meeting,

2:43:242:43:26

as you know very well, that he had no connection whatsoever

2:43:262:43:28

with any of the conversations that might have taken place beforehand.

2:43:282:43:31

Thanks, both, very much indeed.

2:43:312:43:33

Let's just hear the thoughts of my guests of the day,

2:43:332:43:35

Felicity Huston and Brian Feeney.

2:43:352:43:37

Felicity, what do you make of...?

2:43:372:43:40

Let's talk about the £1.7 million that's going from the

2:43:402:43:44

Social Investment Fund to this particular organisation, Charter NI.

2:43:442:43:47

Acceptable or not acceptable, in your view?

2:43:472:43:49

I think, Northern Ireland, if we eliminated anyone with a dodgy past,

2:43:492:43:52

people who have served time and so on, there would be a lot of spaces

2:43:522:43:56

up at Stormont.

2:43:562:43:57

That is what we have actually embraced with the Good Friday Agreement.

2:43:572:44:00

Yes, but those people, the argument runs, have been elected and they have been open

2:44:002:44:04

-about their past.

-Yes.

2:44:042:44:05

This is a different circumstance...

2:44:052:44:07

-I doubt...

-..where there wasn't the normal process of procurement.

2:44:072:44:12

That's another matter.

2:44:122:44:13

Northern Ireland suffers terribly from that.

2:44:132:44:16

This conflict of interest thing, it's fine, you sit on a board, and you allocate money to

2:44:162:44:20

an organisation involved in it. That's nothing to do with

2:44:202:44:24

-Charter NI or anything else and who their membership is...

-You're not bothered them?

2:44:242:44:27

You're happy with this £1.7 million going to this organisation?

2:44:272:44:30

No. I think it is very wrong that somebody sits on a board and agrees

2:44:302:44:32

to give money to an organisation they have an involvement with.

2:44:322:44:35

But that happens throughout public life in Northern Ireland.

2:44:352:44:38

That's not special to this particular fund.

2:44:382:44:40

I don't know an awful lot about these guys but

2:44:402:44:43

it is a fact of life in Northern Ireland that we have paramilitaries,

2:44:432:44:46

and people with paramilitary connections throughout our structures,

2:44:462:44:49

and we have chosen to accept it, turn a blind eye, or work with it.

2:44:492:44:54

-OK.

-It's not right, but that's how we live.

2:44:542:44:56

Just to be clear, the £1.7 million will be used by Charter NI for

2:44:562:45:00

employability projects.

2:45:002:45:02

That's what it's meant to deliver on the ground.

2:45:022:45:05

Brian Feeney, what are your thoughts about this particular case,

2:45:052:45:09

before we talk about the wider issues?

2:45:092:45:12

No public money should be given to any organisation which has

2:45:122:45:15

people from the UDA or any other proscribed terrorist organisation

2:45:152:45:18

sitting on it.

2:45:182:45:20

So you think that Charter NI should be ruled out of this process?

2:45:202:45:23

Because if you have people - and the Spotlight programme was clear about it -

2:45:232:45:27

if you have people with known connections to the UDA, which is an illegal organisation

2:45:272:45:31

which is active, it's only two months since they last killed someone.

2:45:312:45:35

They murdered a man in north Belfast.

2:45:352:45:38

There is nightly trouble in Carrickfergus. It is the UDA.

2:45:382:45:42

They expelled a dozen people from Tiger Bay in the last 12 months.

2:45:422:45:46

The gang leader who was involved in that is now on the run.

2:45:462:45:51

I mean, this is an organisation which is active, illegal, has never

2:45:512:45:55

decommissioned its weapons, and should not have anyone near public money.

2:45:552:46:00

OK.

2:46:002:46:01

But there are lots of very good people with very impressive

2:46:012:46:04

-track records who are involved as well...

-Absolutely.

2:46:042:46:06

..in Charter NI and they seriously outnumber those small number

2:46:062:46:08

-of individuals...

-Yes.

-..who have connections, direct or indirect, to the UDA.

2:46:082:46:11

It doesn't matter what the small number is. The people with the small number of

2:46:112:46:15

connections should be thrown off.

2:46:152:46:17

It's as simple as that. But we have this absurd... And it's not the only organisation.

2:46:172:46:21

We have this absurd position where you have the Fresh Start Agreement

2:46:212:46:24

where people are talking about establishing

2:46:242:46:26

an organisation to get rid of paramilitaries, and instead of

2:46:262:46:28

that they're bribing paramilitaries to be good boys and it is not working.

2:46:282:46:33

This has been going on for years. They give money to the UVF, they give money to the UDA,

2:46:332:46:39

"Please don't wreck the place. We'll make you community leaders. We'll make you community workers."

2:46:392:46:44

-It doesn't work.

-All right. OK. That's your view.

2:46:442:46:46

Clearly, obviously, and you would accept, others people won't necessarily agree with it.

2:46:462:46:50

-It's a very interesting...

-Yeah, but they'd be wrong.

2:46:502:46:52

OK, in your view, of course. It's an interesting conversation piece.

2:46:522:46:55

Thank you very much.

2:46:552:46:57

Let's take a look back at the political week in 60 Seconds,

2:46:572:46:59

with Gareth Gordon.

2:46:592:47:01

Was the Finance Minister in on Daithi McKay's coaching of

2:47:052:47:09

Jamie Bryson? How many ways can you say no?

2:47:092:47:12

I have no involvement whatsoever with this particular affair. None, zilch, nada, nothing.

2:47:122:47:18

Danny Kennedy backed calls for the Orange Order to lift the ban

2:47:182:47:22

on members like him attending Catholic services.

2:47:222:47:26

The Orange institution will take its time and arrive at what I hope will be a sensible decision.

2:47:262:47:33

At the Conservative Conference the Secretary of State

2:47:332:47:35

tried to calm fears a hard border is looking more likely.

2:47:352:47:38

No-one wants to see a return to the borders of the past.

2:47:382:47:43

But Martin McGuinness has made his mind up.

2:47:432:47:46

What the Tories are doing is all about themselves.

2:47:462:47:49

They don't give tuppence for the island of Ireland, north or south.

2:47:492:47:54

The real controversy of the Conference involved a tizz over fizz and trouble over bubbles.

2:47:542:47:59

Somehow it got lost in translation and it became a champagne reception,

2:47:592:48:01

but you know, you couldn't pay for the amount of attention we have had a relation to that matter.

2:48:012:48:05

Arlene Foster, unrepentant about that controversial drinks do in Birmingham.

2:48:102:48:15

Now, the Executive has adopted a new way to manage the targets it

2:48:152:48:18

has set out in its draft Programme for Government.

2:48:182:48:21

We mentioned it a few moments ago. So will the new outcome-based approach work?

2:48:212:48:25

And what are the pitfalls ministers, and their senior civil servants,

2:48:252:48:28

need to be aware of?

2:48:282:48:29

The US politician Diana Urban has pioneered the system in Connecticut.

2:48:292:48:33

She's here to take part in a conference this week,

2:48:332:48:35

and she's with me now.

2:48:352:48:37

You're very welcome to Sunday Politics. Very nice to have you on the programme.

2:48:372:48:41

Tell me why are you such an advocate of the outcome-based approach?

2:48:412:48:46

Well, Mark, first of all I'm delighted to be here and to have

2:48:462:48:49

Celine from the National Children's Board get a hold of

2:48:492:48:51

me to talk about outcomes-based accountability.

2:48:512:48:54

I was eager to come over because of the success we have had

2:48:542:48:56

in Connecticut.

2:48:562:48:58

To put this in terms so that your viewers can understand,

2:48:582:49:01

Connecticut has a yearly budget of about 20 billion.

2:49:012:49:04

Of that 20 billion, 5.6 billion is spent on children and families.

2:49:042:49:09

I'm an economist in my other life, so when I came into the legislature,

2:49:092:49:13

I was like, "So what are we getting for that 5.6 billion?

2:49:132:49:16

"Can you tell me whether children have less asthma?

2:49:162:49:19

"Can you tell me whether children are reading better?

2:49:192:49:22

"Can you tell me whether children teen pregnancies are down?

2:49:222:49:24

"Can you tell me whether restraint and seclusion in our schools is a problem?

2:49:242:49:28

"Can you tell me whether children are graduating, whether they're attending school?"

2:49:282:49:31

The answer, pretty much, is, "Um... We don't really have data on that.

2:49:312:49:36

"So, Representative, we can tell you that if you give us more money,

2:49:362:49:41

"we are sure we'll be able to achieve these things."

2:49:412:49:44

So that's where I was introduced to outcomes-based accountability,

2:49:442:49:48

in the States we call it results-based accountability,

2:49:482:49:52

and put together a team to say, "How do we know what we are getting for our tax dollars?"

2:49:522:50:00

I suppose one of the criticisms is though that it is only a useful

2:50:002:50:04

mechanism when you look back at what the outcome or the result has been.

2:50:042:50:07

We have focused very much up to now on setting

2:50:072:50:10

a target and trying to achieve that, and that seems to be one of the key

2:50:102:50:14

differences, and one of the reasons that people in this part of the

2:50:142:50:16

world are uncomfortable, nervous about the change.

2:50:162:50:19

Well, I'm going to argue that point with you immediately.

2:50:192:50:22

If you look, we have an online report card, CT Kids Report Card.org,

2:50:222:50:26

and you can see we go back and look at what has happened in the past

2:50:262:50:31

and then we do a graph that projects into the future.

2:50:312:50:36

Were we not to do anything, what would happen with asthma?

2:50:362:50:40

What would happen with children's reading?

2:50:402:50:43

What if we simply allowed the curve that had been established to continue?

2:50:432:50:47

And I can tell you that children wouldn't be reading, there would be more

2:50:472:50:50

asthma, there would be more teen pregnancies, that the programmes that we had in place,

2:50:502:50:55

a good deal of them were not getting us where we wanted to go.

2:50:552:50:59

OK, but critics of the approach say it is flawed, and it's flawed for the following reason.

2:50:592:51:02

It's vague, it's nebulous, it's impossible to evaluate.

2:51:022:51:06

How do you respond to that criticism?

2:51:062:51:08

It's almost difficult for me to respond to that because I have

2:51:092:51:13

been in the middle of this for ten years.

2:51:132:51:15

I understand that people have difficulty with data,

2:51:152:51:18

but this is based on data, it's data-informed decision-making model.

2:51:182:51:22

So how can I tell you it's getting better?

2:51:222:51:24

Because I know that we are getting less children with asthma,

2:51:242:51:27

I know that children are now attending school when they weren't before.

2:51:272:51:30

I can also tell you that restraint and seclusion...

2:51:302:51:33

I'm not sure if that's a problem here in Ireland, but we have children with

2:51:332:51:37

mental health issues that are being restrained and secluded in school.

2:51:372:51:41

How can they learn?

2:51:412:51:43

I know now that we are tackling that problem

2:51:432:51:45

so I can tell you from data that we are getting better.

2:51:452:51:48

Children are better off, families are better off.

2:51:482:51:51

One of the goals here I suppose,

2:51:512:51:54

one of the outcome-based goals, is to have more people in employment.

2:51:542:51:58

Everybody wants more people in employment but simply saying,

2:51:582:52:01

"That is our goal, better jobs and more of them", doesn't necessarily mean you

2:52:012:52:06

-are going to deliver it in policy terms.

-You are spot on.

2:52:062:52:09

That is what a lot of programmes will tell you.

2:52:092:52:12

You'll say, "So your programme on the apprenticeship, how is it doing?"

2:52:122:52:16

"Oh, well, Representative, we had 600 people."

2:52:162:52:19

And then that's the end. I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no.

2:52:192:52:21

"You had 600 people. How many of them got jobs?

2:52:212:52:23

"And how many got jobs that lasted more than six months?

2:52:232:52:27

"And how many of them got jobs that allowed them to support their families?"

2:52:272:52:32

-OK.

-I'm really doing this.

-OK. You're obviously passionate about it

2:52:322:52:37

and it's going to be very interesting for people here to learn from your experience.

2:52:372:52:40

It works, you say, in Connecticut

2:52:402:52:42

We'll see if it works in Northern Ireland.

2:52:422:52:45

I would add this also. We looked for a model that people could understand.

2:52:452:52:49

Like, your average person in the street could say, "Now I can

2:52:492:52:53

"look at this and I know what is going on,

2:52:532:52:55

"with children and families in the state of Connecticut."

2:52:552:52:58

If said to you, "Here is performance-based budgeting,"

2:52:582:53:00

you'd be like, "Um... Um..."

2:53:002:53:03

I taught performance-based budgeting. It's a hard thing to understand. This isn't.

2:53:032:53:08

I'll tell you what's a hard thing to understand,

2:53:082:53:11

and that's the US Presidential race which is under way at the moment.

2:53:112:53:14

-You were a Republican for four terms, you are now a Democrat.

-Yes.

2:53:142:53:18

12 very senior Republicans have come out now and withdrawn their support for

2:53:182:53:23

Donald Trump in the wake of this latest scandal.

2:53:232:53:26

What is happening?

2:53:262:53:28

You know, Mark, I have to preface this by saying clearly Mr Trump has

2:53:282:53:33

touched a nerve in the public in the United States, and it is something

2:53:332:53:39

we need to pay attention to, that people feel they are disenfranchised.

2:53:392:53:44

That being said, the man is unfit to be President.

2:53:442:53:48

He has given permission to men to diss women,

2:53:482:53:53

and that, in my estimation, is incredibly unacceptable.

2:53:532:53:57

I am a female legislator in case you haven't noticed. I'm a girl.

2:53:572:54:02

And I have experienced sexual harassment,

2:54:022:54:05

in my 15 years in the Connecticut Legislature, and I have lots of

2:54:052:54:09

friends that have experienced it, and by Mr Trump saying this...

2:54:092:54:14

-OK. He doesn't help.

-He doesn't help.

2:54:142:54:17

OK. We need to leave it there. Thank you very much indeed for coming in to join us.

2:54:172:54:21

Quick final word from Felicity and Brian,

2:54:212:54:24

and it needs to be quick. Is he dead in the water, Felicity?

2:54:242:54:27

I think that people won't really be surprised.

2:54:272:54:30

I had the peculiar experience of being a girl in an all-boys sixth form.

2:54:302:54:32

I know how boys and men talk.

2:54:322:54:34

That's how a lot of men get on. I think a lot of men will think that.

2:54:342:54:37

The point is, should we be surprised?

2:54:372:54:39

I think we should be disappointed but probably not surprised,

2:54:392:54:41

particularly given his career path. That's the sort of world he seems to have functioned in.

2:54:412:54:45

-It's awful.

-You're not surprised, Brian?

-Not in the least and no-one should be.

2:54:452:54:48

He's infamous for this sort of behaviour.

2:54:482:54:50

But he can't win. There aren't enough angry white men left to vote for him.

2:54:502:54:54

The demographics are against him.

2:54:542:54:56

Yes. But it's going to be a very interesting...

2:54:562:54:59

It's going to be fascinating, well, the debate tonight particularly.

2:54:592:55:02

Particularly. And no doubt we'll all be sitting up late into the night. Thank you both very much.

2:55:022:55:06

We need to leave it there.

2:55:062:55:08

That is it from Sunday Politics for this week.

2:55:082:55:10

Join me for Stormont Today, that's on BBC Two at 11.20 on Monday night,

2:55:102:55:13

but for now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching. Bye-bye.

2:55:132:55:16

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