03/12/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


03/12/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics -

your essential guide to the biggest

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political stories of the week.

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Coming up on today's show...

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Ahead of a crucial EU summit,

is Theresa May on the brink

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of a breakthrough on Brexit?

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Or, after a slightly torrid week,

is she in danger of being

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overtaken by events?

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The ex-Labour minister

Alan Milburn quits as chairman

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of the Social Mobility Commission,

saying he has "little hope"

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the current government can make

the "necessary" progress.

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What does this mean

for a Prime Minister who vowed

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to fight against the "burning

injustice" of inequality?

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And, we speak to the academic who's

carrying out economic "wargaming"

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scenarios for the Labour party,

in the event it wins power.

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People are going to trust us

with their jobs and their pensions

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and their livelihoods.

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We've got to show we

know what we're doing.

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And coming up here -

the UK is to make its final offer

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on Brexit tomorrow -

but has enough work been done

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on dealing with the Irish border?

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I'll be talking live to Sinn Fein's

Martina Anderson and a Tory MP.

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Yes, all that coming

up in the programme.

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And to help guide me

through all the week's

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twists and turns, I'm

joined by Tom Newton Dunn,

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Isabel Oakeshott,

and Steve Richards.

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Now, the breaking news this morning

is the resignation of Alan Milburn -

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the ex-Labour minister who,

for the last five years, has chaired

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the Social Mobility Commission.

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He says the Government is too

preoccupied with Brexit

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to focus on social justice.

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We'll be assessing the significance

of that in a moment.

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But first, if that relationship has

turned sour for the Prime Minister,

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it wasn't the only one this week.

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Like all relationships, our liaison

with our European neighbours

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has had its ups and downs.

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Theresa May wants a deep and special

partnership after Brexit.

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Thus far, money has been

the main obstacle to

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an amicable divorce.

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This week, a possible breakthrough.

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He once said "the EU

could go whistle if they

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asked for too much," now he's

practically dancing with joy.

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It's a fantastic opportunity

now to get going.

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Others are always harder to please.

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It is not worth nearly

50 billion sterling.

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No deal is better than a bad deal

and this is a very bad deal indeed.

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Brussels may be on board

with the divorce bill but

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there's trouble over

the Irish border.

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If the UK offer is unacceptable

for Ireland, it will

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also be unacceptable for the EU.

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Reports suggest Stormont could be

given more power to agree bespoke

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trading arrangements

with the Republic but that, in turn,

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enraged Theresa May's

partners in Parliament.

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The DUP could walk out

of their marriage of convenience

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with the Tories if the Government

allows Northern Ireland to diverge

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from the rest of the UK.

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If there is any hint that in order

to placate Dublin and the EU,

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they are prepared to have

Northern Ireland treated differently

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than the rest of the United Kingdom,

then they can't rely on our vote.

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But it was the "special

relationship" that came

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under most strain.

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As Donald Trump re-tweeted

Islamophobia videos,

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posted by the far right

group, Britain First.

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Denounced by Downing Street,

the President took to Twitter again,

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telling Theresa May directly,

"Don't focus on me,

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we are doing just fine."

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The Prime Minister on a surprise

trip to the Middle East was plunged

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into a very public row.

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I'm very clear that

re-tweeting from Britain

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First was the wrong thing to do.

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The May-Trump mini break

in the UK might be off.

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I certainly don't think he should be

should be coming next year.

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Next year is supposed to be a happy

event for the Royal family.

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We certainly don't want Trump

turning up in the middle

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of all of that.

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Meanwhile, Labour leader and GQ

magazine cover model declared

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himself to be an enemy

of greedy bankers.

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So, when they say, we're

a threat, they're right.

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We are a threat to

a damaging and failed

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system that's rigged for the few.

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The Prime Minister's

closest political

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friend stood in for her

at the dispatch box on Wednesday

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while she was abroad but fresh

questions emerged later

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in the week about

whether he'd used a Parliamentary

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computer to view pornography

some nine years ago.

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Theresa May will meet be EU

Commission President

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Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow.

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They will discuss the revised

offer on the divorce

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bill and whether talks

can now move on to trade

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post-Brexit.

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It has not been an easy

relationship with leaks from

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previous meetings finding their way

into the German press.

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Hopefully, they can put

all of that behind them.

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So, we will talk through one of the

top stories for the week with our

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panel in the studio. We are going to

be looking ahead to what is

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happening in Brussels. The Prime

Minister is going over for a working

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lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker

tomorrow. We are always saying we

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have reached a critical stage in the

negotiations.

Is it a critical

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point? It is. It is endgame of

chapter one. There are two chapters,

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divorce and then trade. This is the

end of the first half, at the 43rd

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minute. It is probably 0-0. We need

to get over the line and into

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half-time and into the second half.

Wyatt is so critical is the Prime

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Minister, in the next few days, she

cannot wait till the 14th or 15th of

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December, have to choose to govern

is to choose. One side is saying

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this is what we will act set to move

on to the second phase and the

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Eurosceptics will say, we will not

access to any of that. She has to

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get off the fence. One is what they

will do about easy JN the other

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about the Irish border. To divert or

not diverged?

This is only the end

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of the first half of the process. If

the EU agrees we can move onto the

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second half. That is not guaranteed,

is it?

Tom's analogy, I will not go

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too far with it because I'm not a

football expert. Brexiteers feel it

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is more like 1-0 to the EU. There is

a circulation today, leave means

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leave, which is signed by eminent

business people and academics. Only

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a few MPs, about five of them on

now. We were discussing this earlier

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and Tom made the point it is quite a

hostile thing for a Tory MP to sign

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a letter like this. Many more agree

with the contents of the letter,

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which sets out the set of conditions

the PM must not agree to, in their

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view, must not capitulate to as the

negotiation goes forward. It is

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about when free movement of people

ends and we retain the power to go

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to WTO if all else fails.

We be

discussing this further with our

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guests and find out what the EU had

think about it. The other big news

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of the morning is that Alan Milburn

resigned from the social mobility

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commission. He told and remarked

earlier why. -- Andrew Marr.

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In various social mobility roles,

I've served a Labour Prime Minister,

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a coalition Prime Minister,

and now, a Conservative one.

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I've done so because I care deeply

about the issue and I believe

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that it matters profoundly

to the country.

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I've reached the conclusion, sadly,

that with the current government,

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there is little if any hope

of progress being made

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towards the fairer Britain

that the Prime Minister

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has talked about.

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The Government, probably

for understandable reasons,

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is focused on Brexit,

and seems to lack the bandwidth

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to be able to translate the rhetoric

of healing social division

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and promoting social justice

into a reality.

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That is a pretty damning statement,

the Government does not have the

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bandwidth to do with anything other

than Brexit.

It is true. Brexit is

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sucking up all political energy much

practical energy in Whitehall.

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Beyond that, the significance of

this is not huge. I think these

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commissions float uneasily in

government. If you make policy on

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social justice, you can do that

within a government department if

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you are serious about it. I think it

was set up partly with good

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intentions in the coalition period,

partly to break off the Blairites

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from Labour and get them involved

with these so called modernising

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Conservative project, and the fact

that it is ending, I don't think in

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itself is significant. But he is

absolutely... By the way they were

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never entirely clear on policy

terms. The fact he said I am not a

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status quo nor am I with Theresa

May, what are going to be the

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mediating agencies? There are some

huge issues to address. Whether this

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was the appropriate way to do it in

the first place, I have doubts about

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it.

Thank you for that.

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Well, to pick up on all of that,

I'm joined by the former

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Conservative leader, Michael Howard.

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Thank you for coming in. Let's start

with the claim by Alan Milburn that

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the Government does not have the

time or capacity to do anything

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other than Brexit. That must be a

concern to you as well.

I think he

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is wrong. I share his concern about

social mobility. When I was the

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leader of the Conservative Party

used to make speeches about the

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British dream and the importance of

social mobility. There is always

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more to be done but we have actually

made a lot of progress. Can I give

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you some examples? We would all

agree that education is key to

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social mobility. We have 1.9 million

children now, 1.9 million children

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more than in 2010 in good or

outstanding schools.

His complaint

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was not that nothing has been done

since 2010 but nothing can be done

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now.

It is still happening. Income

inequality is at its lowest level

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for 30 years. More taxes being paid

than under the Labour years. One of

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the worst things that can happen to

a child is to live in a workless

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household. The number of workless

households has been shrinking. And

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implement is at its lowest level

since 1975.

-- unemployment. Theresa

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May, when she became Prime Minister

last year, said this is a country of

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burning injustice.

It is. There is

always more to be done. You say it

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is in the past. This morning we have

had an announcement that a

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considerable amount of extra money

will be devoted in helping children

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facing mental health challenges in

our schools. That is important as

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well in relation to social mobility.

Of course there is more to be done.

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I think quite a lot of progress has

been made on social mobility and

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should not forget that.

Let's move

on to wrecks it. You will have read

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reports that she will offer a

divorce bill somewhere between 40

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billion and 50 billion euros, maybe

slightly more. You said back in

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April that you would be astonished

if the bill was anything like 50

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billion euros for the you must be

producer prize.

We all started off

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with aspirations. -- you must be

pretty surprised. I do not know what

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the sum will be. Whatever it is it

will be a fraction of the amount we

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have paid into the European Union

over the last 40 years and would pay

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into the European Union for the next

40.

You are now fairly relaxed about

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something around this mark?

I have

confidence in the Prime Minister and

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David Davis. I want to let them

decide what is the best deal. I'm

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confident we'll get a good deal. I'm

confident in the Prime Minister and

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David Davies.

You know the more

money we spend on the divorce the

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more bashes nevertheless many we

have to spend on other things. Our

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guest last week felt it had to be

delivered to keep faith in the

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process.

In the budget a few days

ago the Government promised more

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than an extra £350 million for the

health service, running into almost

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£2 billion.

They did not promise

that in the budget?

Over time, more

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money will be available when we are

out. These payments, I don't know

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what the sum would be, are going to

be spread out over many years. The

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annual bill will not be anything

like that. In the end there will be

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more money to spend on the health

service and other desirable things

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because we will not have to make

this very large, annual contribution

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we were making.

You have always been

a committed Eurosceptic. Do not

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worry that the European Union seem

to be having it their way? They

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wanted to discuss divorce before the

trade deals. We agreed to that. The

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divorce bill seems to have gone up

substantially since Theresa May was

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speaking in her Florence speech.

They are getting what they want as

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we are going through the process and

we seem to be capitulating.

I do not

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think that is fair. There is a huge

amount of posturing, which always

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goes on in negotiations. The

approach of the European Union is in

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breach of Article 50. Article 50

says the arrangements for the

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departure of a member state have to

take into account the future

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relationship of that state with the

European Union. You cannot take

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something into account if you are

not prepared to talk about it. They

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are in breach of Article 50. That is

the approach they have chosen. I am

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confident. I think we will move

forward to the next phase, to pursue

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Tom's analogy, I hope they will not

be injury time at the end of the

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first half and I hope we will get an

agreement this month and then we can

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start talking turkey.

Do you agree

with the leave means leave letter in

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the paper today without demanding

the UK be free to sign employment

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trade deals and note end to

restriction is by the European Court

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of Justice?

I share the aspirations

contained in the letter.

You did not

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sign it.

No.

Did they ask you to?

No. I am not inclined to make

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demands at this stage. I think they

should be allowed to get on with the

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negotiations. I have confidence in

their ability to do so. I'm

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confident that in the end will get a

good deal in the interests of the UK

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and of the European Union because

there is a great commonality of

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interest between the two of us to

have a good relationship, a deep and

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special relationship the Prime

Minister has spoken of.

You are

0:16:120:16:17

trying not to be a back-seat driver.

As a former leader of the Tory Party

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you probably understand how annoying

that will be that you are an

0:16:210:16:25

interested party entitled to your

view on this. Iain Duncan Smith is

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in the papers saying how important

it is to end the authority of the

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European Court of Justice. Is that a

red line for you?

0:16:330:16:44

I have every confidence in the Prime

Minister and in David Davis and I

0:16:440:16:47

think they will end up with a good

deal.

They're just going to pick up

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with our panel here. Listening to

Michael Howard there, very carefully

0:16:500:16:57

trying not to step on the Prime

Minister's toes, but clearly he

0:16:570:17:02

shares some sympathy with people who

do want to put some red lines on

0:17:020:17:06

her?

I know Michael Howard is a

forensic follower of politics, so

0:17:060:17:11

I'm surprised he is completely

confident about Theresa May

0:17:110:17:15

delivering this, given that when she

returned from the last summit, when

0:17:150:17:18

she made her House of Commons

statement, she was clear, to my

0:17:180:17:23

surprise, actually, that during the

transition, I am not surprised in

0:17:230:17:27

how it turned out but I am surprised

she was so clear, that the European

0:17:270:17:31

court would hold some sway. It has

two, because if the transition is to

0:17:310:17:36

be effective, it means one way or

another we will still sort of be in

0:17:360:17:41

the single market and Customs union

for a time and therefore the

0:17:410:17:44

European court will hold some sway.

And she said it. I saw Jacob

0:17:440:17:48

Rees-Mogg's response of horror. But

she did say it. And so that is

0:17:480:17:53

already I think part of the

equation. So the response of her

0:17:530:17:56

Brexiteers on this will be pivotal.

Iain Duncan Smith is not alone in

0:17:560:18:06

being absolutely resolute that the

ECJ will have nothing to do with

0:18:060:18:08

Britain?

Absolutely, and I think

that the concern amongst the harder

0:18:080:18:12

line Brexiteers is that this

transitional arrangement is a

0:18:120:18:18

continuation of the status quo, and

that it might even slip. Now, the

0:18:180:18:21

Prime Minister has try to be

reassuring on that, and there have

0:18:210:18:24

been indications it might slip a few

weeks but definitely not longer. But

0:18:240:18:30

I think that Brexit MPs want more

assurances that this will not end up

0:18:300:18:37

just being kicked into the long

grass.

Will those assurances be

0:18:370:18:40

given?

I don't think they will be.

She is going to have to compromise.

0:18:400:18:43

The other choice is to walk away. A

perfectly admirable choice but it is

0:18:430:18:48

a choice she needs to make. The

interesting question is, what do

0:18:480:18:52

these people plan to do about it?

What does Michael Howard plan to do

0:18:520:18:58

if the £45 billion bill, which he is

now accepting, it would appear, the

0:18:580:19:06

four MPs and some other quite senior

party figures, what do they plan to

0:19:060:19:10

do if the Prime Minister

compromises? Will they vote against

0:19:100:19:14

it, will they put their considerable

legislative weight, which Michael

0:19:140:19:21

Howard could do in the House of

Lords, against it?

Even though

0:19:210:19:24

you're being very diplomatic today,

is there a point at which you would

0:19:240:19:29

speak out if something you saw as

fundamentally unacceptable occurred?

0:19:290:19:33

That is a very hypothetical

question, Sarah!

The idea that you

0:19:330:19:38

might find something out of Brussels

being unacceptable is hypothetical?

0:19:380:19:42

Lets wait and see. I have said and I

am in danger of repeating myself, I

0:19:420:19:49

have every confidence in the Prime

Minister and in David Davis. I think

0:19:490:19:53

we will end up with a good deal. You

would in expect in negotiations like

0:19:530:19:59

this an awful lot of posturing.

Let

me into you because I need to ask

0:19:590:20:05

you about one other thing before we

go. Damian Green, you will know

0:20:050:20:10

there have been more stories

reported this week around the

0:20:100:20:15

accusation that he viewed

pornography on a Parliamentary

0:20:150:20:16

computer, something he absolutely

resolutely denies. If it is

0:20:160:20:21

discovered that he wasn't telling

the truth when he told the Prime

0:20:210:20:23

Minister he hadn't done this, would

it be a resigning matter?

I don't

0:20:230:20:29

know, that is another hypothetical

question. Damian was my

0:20:290:20:33

Parliamentary neighbour for many

years, he has denied it and I

0:20:330:20:36

believe him and I agree with those

very senior figures yesterday who

0:20:360:20:40

condemned the leaking of information

by these retired police officers. I

0:20:400:20:44

think that's a very serious matter

indeed. Policing in this country is

0:20:440:20:51

based on trust between the police

and the public. And if we have...

0:20:510:21:02

Michael Howard, thank you very much

for talking to us.

0:21:020:21:06

The EU has warned Theresa May

that she must satisfy Irish demands,

0:21:060:21:09

if the Brexit negotiations

are to move forward this week.

0:21:090:21:12

But ahead of a crucial

meeting between Theresa May

0:21:120:21:14

and Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow,

it seems there is still work to do.

0:21:140:21:17

Here's the Irish Foreign

Minister, Simon Coveney,

0:21:170:21:18

speaking this morning.

0:21:180:21:24

There is no desire in Ireland to

delay this process. But at the same

0:21:240:21:29

time we have irresponsibility as a

government to represent the

0:21:290:21:32

interests on the island of Ireland,

north and south. Let's not forget

0:21:320:21:36

that next year will be the 20th

anniversary of the Good Friday

0:21:360:21:39

Agreement, which is the basis for

the peace process, and relations

0:21:390:21:42

between Britain and Ireland on the

island of Ireland. And we believe

0:21:420:21:46

that as an island, Ireland is

uniquely vulnerable and exposed to a

0:21:460:21:52

potential bad outcome from Brexit.

0:21:520:21:57

With me now is the Shadow

International Trade

0:21:570:21:59

Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

0:21:590:22:05

Obviously, it is absolutely crucial

that a resolution is found to this

0:22:050:22:08

problem - what is Labour's position?

I think you have to proceed here on

0:22:080:22:11

the basis of principles. The first

principle is, do nothing that

0:22:110:22:16

damages the peace process. The

second principle is, do nothing that

0:22:160:22:19

averages the economy. And by that I

mean both the economy and Northern

0:22:190:22:26

Ireland, in Ireland as a whole and

in the UK and Ireland as a whole.

0:22:260:22:32

Now, that means that we have to...

But that's the impossible conundrum,

0:22:320:22:38

how to do all of those things at

once?

It can't be impossible,

0:22:380:22:41

because we've got to do it. Of

course it is being made much more

0:22:410:22:43

difficult by the government's red

lines on this. And the government

0:22:430:22:47

has stated very publicly and clearly

that it wants to come out of the

0:22:470:22:52

customs union and the single market.

And of course, what actually creates

0:22:520:22:55

checks at the border is when you

have regulator we variants and when

0:22:550:23:00

you have product standards that are

different. So, that means that you

0:23:000:23:04

have to check what's coming in and

out for any tariffs that you wish to

0:23:040:23:07

impose. Now, that's why it has been,

I think and my party thinks, foolish

0:23:070:23:14

to have removed the structural

possibilities which lie in the

0:23:140:23:18

customs union or the single market,

from what the government's

0:23:180:23:24

negotiating position is.

That's very

interesting, because I can see

0:23:240:23:29

clearly, and so can the Irish

government, exactly how staying in

0:23:290:23:32

the customs union and the single

market would help resolve the

0:23:320:23:35

question for the island of Ireland,

but also it raises questions for the

0:23:350:23:38

United Kingdom. It is also

interesting because if we have a

0:23:380:23:42

look at what you say back in July,

who didn't sound quite as pleased

0:23:420:23:45

about the single market, when you

said we would in effect become a

0:23:450:23:50

vassal state, obliged to pay into

the EU budget and having even less

0:23:500:23:55

sovereignty than we do now - you

weren't so keen on the single market

0:23:550:23:59

then?

I am not so keen on the single

market membership as opposed to

0:23:590:24:02

being a member of the EU. Single

market membership without being a

0:24:020:24:05

member of the EU means that you do

not have a say in the rules which

0:24:050:24:10

you have to abide by.

But we're

leaving the EU, let's take that as a

0:24:100:24:14

given.

Let's talk about where we are

going forward. I was setting out

0:24:140:24:20

very clearly, and I don't think you

would disagree with what I said, I

0:24:200:24:25

was setting out very clearly the

applications of leaving the EU in

0:24:250:24:28

the way that the government had set

out. And those implications are

0:24:280:24:31

clear. I believe I set them out

correctly. Where we are now is, we

0:24:310:24:37

have to find a solution to this

problem. Simon Coveney was actually

0:24:370:24:41

earlier very clear in saying that

you don't have to have a full

0:24:410:24:45

solution in phase one, but there has

to be the real expectation that

0:24:450:24:51

we're going to be able to resolve it

in phase two. The first thing that

0:24:510:24:57

both sides need to say here is that

we will look at the Common Travel

0:24:570:25:00

Area, which has existed since 1922,

and that should be part and parcel

0:25:000:25:03

of the deal going forward. The

second element that I think is

0:25:030:25:06

really important here is to

understand precisely what the peace

0:25:060:25:12

settlement was, when in the Good

Friday Agreement in 1998 we set out

0:25:120:25:17

that there should be no security

checks at the border. That was

0:25:170:25:21

critically important. But of course,

security checks in those days were

0:25:210:25:25

in place because of the situation,

the military, paramilitary

0:25:250:25:28

situation. But when those security

checks were taken away, because we

0:25:280:25:34

were members of the single market

and because we were members of the

0:25:340:25:40

customs union, there were no

additional customs checks. Now, to

0:25:400:25:43

say that you order the Good Friday

Agreement and have no security

0:25:430:25:45

checks, with all the military

paraphernalia that goes with that,

0:25:450:25:50

does not mean that you cannot have

typified customs checks. But those

0:25:500:25:58

customs checks will only be put in

place if the government wants to

0:25:580:26:01

deregulate. My party doesn't. My

party doesn't want to deregulate, we

0:26:010:26:07

don't want to impose these

terrorists. The government is in a

0:26:070:26:13

bind here, because most of the key

players around of Brexit want to

0:26:130:26:16

deregulate, and that means there

have to be tariffs, and that means

0:26:160:26:20

they have to be imposed at a border.

Jeremy Corbyn yesterday refused to

0:26:200:26:23

rule out the possibility of a second

referendum on our EU membership - is

0:26:230:26:28

it now the Labour Party's policy

that we might vote again on this?

0:26:280:26:33

No, it's not.

Why did he say we have

not made any decision on a second

0:26:330:26:36

referendum?

That precisely says that

it is not, because policy because we

0:26:360:26:40

have not made a decision on it!

You

could make a decision Ameobi not to

0:26:400:26:47

have a second referendum?

Let's be

absolutely upfront about this. The

0:26:470:26:49

idea that you would have a second

referendum, I think you would say

0:26:490:26:55

you were going to have a second

referendum. Like the Liberal

0:26:550:26:57

Democrats have done. That would be

to encourage the EU to give you the

0:26:570:27:02

worst possible deal that there was,

so that when you're then voted on

0:27:020:27:08

it, everybody would say, we can't

possibly go there. The key thing, in

0:27:080:27:13

my view, is that it was always

foolish, always foolish, to have a

0:27:130:27:19

50% class one referendum. Because if

you are trying to...

That's what we

0:27:190:27:23

had, we are now looking at the

future. I'm talking about the

0:27:230:27:27

future. It sounds like Jeremy Corbyn

is saying it is a possibility that

0:27:270:27:33

Labour might call for one?

I am

trying to answer your question. I am

0:27:330:27:38

not trying to avoid it. When we go

forward, if we were to have another

0:27:380:27:42

referendum on the same lines as we

have had, and it were to be 52-48

0:27:420:27:45

the other way, what would that

achieve hammered absolutely nothing.

0:27:450:27:51

It would then be game on for a third

or fourth referendum. The only way

0:27:510:27:55

in which in my view you could

possibly contemplate a second

0:27:550:27:58

referendum would be if you had a

threshold which I believe should

0:27:580:28:01

have been there in the first place

of a two thirds majority. But that I

0:28:010:28:06

stress is not Labour Party policy,

it is not something that we've

0:28:060:28:09

decided, and Jeremy Corbyn

articulated that yesterday.

Have you

0:28:090:28:16

spoken to Diane Abbott, who has

written to two constituents in the

0:28:160:28:19

past month saying she would make the

case for a second referendum?

Diane

0:28:190:28:24

has already said that letter was

poorly worded Pozzo, as she called

0:28:240:28:28

it. I will not make any further

comment on it.

0:28:280:28:35

The Shadow Chancellor,

John McDonnell, came in for a bit

0:28:350:28:37

of flak recently when he admitted

that Labour was preparing

0:28:370:28:39

for possible negative scenarios,

such as a run on the pound,

0:28:390:28:42

if it wins power.

0:28:420:28:46

Speaking on the fringes

of his party's conference, he said

0:28:460:28:50

he was carrying out "war game-type

scenario planning" in the event

0:28:500:28:53

of an election victory.

0:28:530:28:54

John McDonnell, the man

helping Mr McDonald.

0:28:540:28:55

Well, the man helping

Mr McDonnell do that is

0:28:550:28:58

the academic Richard Barbrook.

0:28:580:28:59

He's also the man behind

'Games for the Many' -

0:28:590:29:01

the political gaming studio

that produced CorbynRun.

0:29:010:29:03

Ellie Price went along to meet him.

0:29:030:29:08

You may have seen some of these

during the election.

0:29:080:29:11

In May Bot, the gamer helps the PM

shoot, run and slide

0:29:110:29:13

her way to dystopia.

0:29:130:29:14

And then downloaded 150,000 times

in the first week of

0:29:140:29:18

the campaign alone, Corbyn Run,

which sees Jeremy Corbyn shaking

0:29:180:29:20

down bankers to pay

for policy pledges.

0:29:200:29:23

And it's one of the things

the Labour leadership think can win

0:29:230:29:26

them the next election.

0:29:260:29:29

It put an idea out there

that you can actually

0:29:290:29:36

engage in politics in a way

which is both a good laugh,

0:29:360:29:40

enjoy the game.

0:29:400:29:42

But actually it is quite

stimulating as well.

0:29:420:29:44

What happened was, that

prompted ideas about a

0:29:440:29:46

fair taxation system

and the policies that

0:29:460:29:48

were being launched.

0:29:480:29:49

It's new creative way into ideas.

0:29:490:29:50

Are you worried that

the Tories will catch on?

0:29:500:29:53

They most probably will catch on.

0:29:530:29:59

But it's not just about the medium,

it is about the message as well.

0:29:590:30:02

Richard, what is happening here?

0:30:020:30:03

It's a games jam.

Right.

0:30:030:30:05

People are coming together

to make app games,

0:30:050:30:06

laptop games, board games, getting

ready for the local elections in May

0:30:060:30:09

to propagate Labour's message.

0:30:090:30:10

And is it really working?

0:30:100:30:12

You have 50-odd people here, that's

hardly going to change the world.

0:30:120:30:14

No.

0:30:140:30:15

I'm from the punk generation.

0:30:150:30:20

I'm from the punk generation.

0:30:200:30:21

The first time I saw

the Sex Pistols, there were 40 or 50

0:30:210:30:25

people in the room.

0:30:250:30:26

Then, in the late-80s,

I went to the very early raves

0:30:260:30:28

and again there were very

small groups of people.

0:30:280:30:31

Yet, in both cases, these

cultures, you start off

0:30:310:30:33

with small groups of people

and they can suddenly

0:30:330:30:35

become a mass phenomenom.

0:30:350:30:36

And, I'm reliably informed,

it isn't just for computer geeks.

0:30:360:30:38

Yes, we've got people

here who are activists and have

0:30:380:30:41

never coded in their lives

and they're using tools,

0:30:410:30:44

with which you can make games

with no coding skills.

0:30:440:30:47

I'm not sure I believe

you but here is a challenge.

0:30:470:30:50

Can you make me a game?

0:30:500:30:51

Yes, I can.

0:30:510:30:52

The challenge begins.

0:30:520:31:01

OK.

0:31:010:31:02

I'm done.

0:31:020:31:03

That took less than half an hour.

0:31:030:31:05

Can I see it?

0:31:050:31:06

Yeah, of course.

0:31:060:31:07

You go up to John and he says,

"We're making games to change the

0:31:070:31:10

face of politics."

0:31:100:31:11

Then you go up to Jeremy

and he says, "for the many,

0:31:110:31:14

not the few."

0:31:140:31:15

OK, so it's not exactly Super Mario

but Labour are looking

0:31:150:31:18

at another kind of gaming,

so-called war-gaming.

0:31:180:31:20

Considering possible

future scenarios.

0:31:200:31:23

Something John McDonnell

talked about at the last

0:31:230:31:25

Labour Conference.

0:31:250:31:28

What if there is a run

on the pound, what happens if

0:31:280:31:33

there is this concept

of capital flight?

0:31:330:31:34

I don't think there

will but you never know

0:31:340:31:37

so we've got a scenario

planned for that.

0:31:370:31:41

Richard is also part

of the Shadow Treasury

0:31:410:31:43

war-gaming team, who are expected

to meet again in the next few weeks.

0:31:430:31:46

If people are going to trust us

with their jobs and their pensions

0:31:460:31:50

and their livelihoods,

we've got to show

0:31:500:31:51

we know what we are doing.

0:31:510:31:53

This seems like common sense to me.

0:31:530:31:57

From games jams like these,

Labour hoped to create a campaign

0:31:570:32:00

tool that will take them to the next

level - Downing Street.

0:32:000:32:03

If politics is a game,

there are novel ways to play.

0:32:030:32:06

And Richard Barbrook joins me now.

0:32:060:32:12

Thanks for coming in. John McDonnell

said the conference he was working

0:32:120:32:17

with you are looking at different

scenarios I possibly around on the

0:32:170:32:21

pound. It caused huge amount of

controversy. Can you understand why?

0:32:210:32:28

I was actually. Surprised that

people are surprised that political

0:32:280:32:33

parties are not doing this. The

military, the civil service,

0:32:330:32:36

Corporation Banks, they all do this.

The surprise was one would imagine

0:32:360:32:42

that a Labour government neither

hoped nor predicted there would be a

0:32:420:32:45

run on the pound and capital flight.

Given the fanaticism of the present

0:32:450:32:53

government, probably when we get

elected, the pound would likely go

0:32:530:32:56

up. You need to think about these

problems beforehand. There are

0:32:560:33:03

potential difficulties to foresee.

You can scenario plan for those. You

0:33:030:33:08

can read about problems coming up

ahead and you can talk about them

0:33:080:33:13

but actually to experience in a game

like atmosphere, the pressures of

0:33:130:33:19

making decisions... You can identify

problems and think about solutions,

0:33:190:33:22

try out ideas. If it does not work

you can reiterate again and again

0:33:220:33:27

and again.

When the Treasury does

something like this, with very

0:33:270:33:32

complex statistical models and huge

amounts of data, can you feed it

0:33:320:33:35

into a scenario?

You can on that

basis. What you can do more is test

0:33:350:33:44

the team coming together and seeing

how it responds under pressure. A

0:33:440:33:48

good example, if you think about the

National Health Service. If it were

0:33:480:33:52

a flu pandemic they would have to

think about how to reallocate

0:33:520:33:56

resources. There would be sickness

amongst staff, more people going to

0:33:560:34:00

hospitals and you get together a

group of people responsible for

0:34:000:34:03

running the NHS. You put them

together and put them through a

0:34:030:34:07

three-hour simulation of it and that

is the same sort of thing we are

0:34:070:34:13

doing. We are looking at what

happens when Labour gets in, the

0:34:130:34:15

first 100 days in power, for the

first budget, what would you do?

0:34:150:34:19

Whether it is a run on the pound or

something, you create pressures and

0:34:190:34:24

problems for them to create the idea

of how they have to operate as a

0:34:240:34:29

team.

Does that give you the

opportunity to stress test some of

0:34:290:34:34

the more radical policies that

Labour came up with in the last

0:34:340:34:37

manifesto like nationalising the

water companies or electricity firms

0:34:370:34:41

or something like that?

It is only

maybe in this media bubble in

0:34:410:34:53

Britain that we think neoliberalism

is the only alternative.

Those are

0:34:530:34:55

to mainstream for you to bother

about?

I said the initial simulation

0:34:550:34:58

as any of the first 100 days we are

looking at how we would put together

0:34:580:35:02

a budget. That is not really what

the focus is. It is making it

0:35:020:35:10

happen, the decision-making process.

That is what you are trying to train

0:35:100:35:14

people for. The military does this,

the civil service does this put up

0:35:140:35:18

if you do not do this you are in a

very bad position. The election, the

0:35:180:35:25

Liberal Democrats did no contingency

planning as to what would happen if

0:35:250:35:28

there were a hung parliament but the

civil service did. They ripped

0:35:280:35:34

people into becoming a junior

appendage of the Tory Party with the

0:35:340:35:38

disastrous results that came from

that.

Is this the kind of

0:35:380:35:44

discussions that a Shadow Cabinet

would be having in the run-up to the

0:35:440:35:47

general election anyway? That is

that fundamental job of an

0:35:470:35:52

opposition.

This is a fundamental

method of doing it. You are just

0:35:520:35:58

surprised that a political parties

doing this. If you are the military

0:35:580:36:02

or the civil service you use this

tool. You are just surprised... I am

0:36:020:36:07

surprised that you are surprised.

The other thing you are doing

0:36:070:36:11

separate from the war game scenario,

the apps and the games go further --

0:36:110:36:17

which you say can further political

engagement, are they really

0:36:170:36:25

spreading a message?

A good example

is the Jeremy Corbyn ran.

I have

0:36:250:36:36

played that. It is about mugging

bankers in the streets.

Why we have

0:36:360:36:43

austerities is about the tax cuts.

You reverse that and you campaign

0:36:430:36:48

fuel social programme. In doing so,

it shows that you are more

0:36:480:36:51

successful in raising revenue can

unlock certain pledges and people

0:36:510:36:55

join your campaign.

Stay there if

you will. I will come to the panel.

0:36:550:37:01

Do you think this sounds like a

useful, political tool, to sit there

0:37:010:37:05

in a game like atmosphere and work

hard to intimate radical programme

0:37:050:37:11

for government?

Yes. It sounds

sensible and not the only thing they

0:37:110:37:15

are doing. I can see them Maya city

of John McDonnell was to speak aloud

0:37:150:37:20

in any context about a potential run

on the pound. -- naivete. To prepare

0:37:200:37:26

for eventualities, prepare for the

first 100 days by using all kinds of

0:37:260:37:33

devices, is highly sensible.

Even if

it has been publicised to working

0:37:330:37:39

with games developers.

You kept

going on about military, war-gaming

0:37:390:37:45

exercises. I am co-authoring a book

on defence at the moment. In one of

0:37:450:37:49

the most important recent war-gaming

exercises we did with the Americans,

0:37:490:37:55

we were wiped out within a day

because our targeting policy was so

0:37:550:37:59

outdated. I think the fear in the

city is exactly that would happen

0:37:590:38:04

economically

0:38:040:38:06

policy is so outdated.

I will let

you respond to that and ask you

0:38:060:38:13

another question as well.

She is

just the Tory Troll.

I'm not a

0:38:130:38:20

member of the Tory Party. No reason

to be impolite to people. If Morgan

0:38:200:38:29

Stanley came here and said we want

to game out what a Labour government

0:38:290:38:35

would mean for business, would you

do that?

I would not do it but I

0:38:350:38:39

would be very surprised if they are

not

0:38:390:38:42

not already doing that.

Thank you

for coming in to talk to us.

0:38:420:38:48

It's coming up to 11:40am.

0:38:480:38:49

You're watching

the Sunday Politics.

0:38:490:38:50

Coming up on the programme...

0:38:500:38:52

We sent the Sunday Politics moodbox

- our unscientific poll

0:38:520:38:55

featuring plastic balls -

to South West London.

0:38:550:38:57

After polling suggested

the Conservative Party

0:38:570:38:58

aren't seen as "caring",

we asked people in

0:38:580:39:00

Putney what they value

more in politicians -

0:39:000:39:02

competence or compassion?

0:39:020:39:03

I think that anybody

who is in parliament

0:39:030:39:05

should be confident,

otherwise they shouldn't be an MP in

0:39:050:39:07

the first place,

whatever party they are.

0:39:070:39:14

-- competent.

0:39:140:39:15

Do they have enough compassion?

0:39:150:39:16

Hm?

0:39:160:39:17

Hello and welcome

to Sunday Politics.

0:39:280:39:30

Irish politicians been

involved in plenty

0:39:300:39:31

of negotiation deadlines

0:39:310:39:32

over the years -

but nothing quite like this.

0:39:320:39:39

This is why the key to the UK future

lies in Dublin in some ways.

At

0:39:390:39:46

least as far as negotiations were

wrecked it go. A shrug for Brexit

0:39:460:39:51

go.

0:39:510:39:52

As we enter into a crucial phase

in the future relationships

0:39:520:39:54

between these islands and Europe.

0:39:540:39:56

I'll be speaking

to the Sinn Fein MEP,

0:39:560:39:58

Martina Anderson, and

Conservative MP, Nigel Mills.

0:39:580:39:59

my studio guests are Newton Emerson

and Patricia MacBride.

0:40:000:40:08

As the talks between

the British government

0:40:080:40:10

and the European Union enter what's

been described as a critical phase

0:40:100:40:13

ahead of Thesea May's meeting

with European Commission President

0:40:130:40:16

Jean-Claude Junker tomorrow -

are we any closer to getting

0:40:160:40:20

a deal on the border?

0:40:200:40:22

The European Council President,

Donald Tusk, stood side-by-side

0:40:220:40:24

with the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar,

in Dublin on Friday and made it

0:40:240:40:27

clear that if the UK offer

is unacceptable for Ireland it

0:40:270:40:29

will be unacceptable

for the European Union too.

0:40:290:40:33

So can negotiators come up

with a form of words

0:40:330:40:36

that IS acceptable to both sides?

0:40:360:40:37

I'm joined from our Foyle Studioby

the Sinn Fein MEP, Martina Anderson,

0:40:370:40:41

and from Nottingham

by the Conservative MP,

0:40:410:40:43

Nigel Mills...

0:40:430:40:49

Welcome.

What is your reaction to

Donald Tusk's statement? Does it put

0:40:490:40:57

pressure on Theresa May?

It is

heightening the rhetoric. Not sure

0:40:570:41:03

it was constructive or a positive

way forward, we accept the Irish

0:41:030:41:08

government don't want Brexit and

they are entitled to act in their

0:41:080:41:13

own national interest but it is

clear to all that the way we get the

0:41:130:41:17

best possible border on the island

of Ireland is to have the most

0:41:170:41:20

combines a free trade deal that we

can. If we can't move on to those

0:41:200:41:25

talks it looks like the UK

Government will have to say well, if

0:41:250:41:29

there is no progress if the aren't

serious about the trading coalition

0:41:290:41:33

then we will have to work for no

deal.

Just because you don't like

0:41:330:41:37

what Mr Tusk has disabled doesn't

mean it is rhetoric of course.

I

0:41:370:41:42

think it is a strong use of words to

try and say there hasn't been enough

0:41:420:41:48

progress, the UK Government has

pretty clearly said we don't want a

0:41:480:41:53

border, we won't put one on the

island of Ireland, and we want free

0:41:530:41:57

trading arrangement and the EU have

made no alternative suggestions but

0:41:570:42:02

keep asking for more forms of words.

Suggestions are supposed to come

0:42:020:42:07

from the UK Government because it is

the UK that are leaving the EU, that

0:42:070:42:11

is the point. You can't have a

negotiation where once I put up

0:42:110:42:15

ideas and just says no the other

side.

We have come up with creative

0:42:150:42:21

ideas, with creative solutions do no

terrace and we are beds to enforce

0:42:210:42:25

them, and in business premises away

from the border, and prepared to

0:42:250:42:33

exempt all small regional businesses

about 80% of more of businesses. We

0:42:330:42:38

have come up with creative ideas

that we think could be done and it

0:42:380:42:42

has always been met with known, say

something else. We can't progress

0:42:420:42:46

unless the other side says something

else.

It's not just the EU, it's not

0:42:460:42:53

just Leo Varadkar Alan Donald does

cut are saying this. The House of

0:42:530:42:57

Commons committee on the exit is not

happy either. It says it is

0:42:570:43:02

understand speculative.

That was a

split report where half of the team

0:43:020:43:07

said...

That was the rule of the

committee.

The EU have said we want

0:43:070:43:13

creative and flexible negotiations

because this hasn't done before so

0:43:130:43:17

by definition we have to come up

with is ideas that haven't been

0:43:170:43:21

tested. This seems a unique

situation do have a member state

0:43:210:43:24

leaving the EU rather than joining

it so it makes sense we have a

0:43:240:43:31

different solution. I think what the

EU wanted was something more

0:43:310:43:33

radical, and unless we do that there

is criticism it hasn't been tested.

0:43:330:43:40

Let me bring in Martina Anderson. It

is time for the Irish government or

0:43:400:43:44

the EU to come up with some

proposals of their own. The UK

0:43:440:43:47

Government has done all it can do at

this stage in the process. Well, if

0:43:470:43:52

that is the measure of what the

British Government has done then it

0:43:520:43:57

is little wonder that we are the way

that we are today.

That is

0:43:570:44:02

potentially heading towards a mess.

Many of us want to move into the

0:44:020:44:06

next phase of negotiations but

Europe has been very clear and

0:44:060:44:11

particularly the European Parliament

as has the council that the Good

0:44:110:44:15

Friday Agreement needs to be

protected in all of its parts. And

0:44:150:44:18

what the British Government has

proposed or so far proposed to put

0:44:180:44:22

on the table has been contradictory

impositions. One hand it has said it

0:44:220:44:29

wants to pursue the Good Friday

Agreement but then goes onto say

0:44:290:44:32

that it pulling the north out of the

customs union and the single market.

0:44:320:44:37

Sinn Fein has presented a reasonable

and rational case that can be

0:44:370:44:41

delivered and that is for the north

to remain within the EU.

You know

0:44:410:44:48

very well that Unionists do not want

to consider anything that would lead

0:44:480:44:51

to in their eyes the demolition of

the constitutional position of

0:44:510:44:55

Northern Ireland. You have a problem

with the proposals that you up on

0:44:550:44:59

the table because that is piously

what they do.

-- precisely. It is

0:44:590:45:05

political union is that is the

problem.

It's the British

0:45:050:45:09

Government?

No, an opinion poll

recently stated quite clearly that

0:45:090:45:16

the majority of the unionist people

would accept a border in the Irish

0:45:160:45:20

Sea. We already have a border in the

Irish Sea of trade that takes place

0:45:200:45:27

between the north and Britain. There

is already in practice in place, a

0:45:270:45:32

system in place whether it is for

plants and plant produce or animals

0:45:320:45:38

or animal produce, whatever it is

there our borders controls already.

0:45:380:45:44

At Belfast Harbour and Belfast City

Airport. So therefore there is a

0:45:440:45:48

solution to this problem that

ensures that the north stays in the

0:45:480:45:53

single market and the customs union

and the majority of the unionist

0:45:530:45:57

people and the nationalist People's

support that as the way forward. Let

0:45:570:46:02

me put that to Nigel them. It is a

reasonable and deliverable case.

0:46:020:46:08

Nigel, how do you respond to that?

There is nothing different at all in

0:46:080:46:13

the proposals coming from the Irish

side as far as solving this issue

0:46:130:46:17

concerns, that are anyway different

in what is in practice. That is a

0:46:170:46:22

stretch, isn't it.

The UK is

committed as a whole to the union

0:46:220:46:27

and its is what will happen. I don't

think there is any precedent for any

0:46:270:46:32

country to be an other parts of a

customs union.

That is wrong. There

0:46:320:46:40

are 25 overseas territories in the

EU and each of them have a different

0:46:400:46:43

relationship with Europe. Greenland

for example, Ford Denmark for

0:46:430:46:49

example, what, for instance the

legal advice has shown that could

0:46:490:46:51

have Denmark refreshed. What I'm

concerned about is the ignorance

0:46:510:46:57

from people like yourself that you

don't know that Europe is quite

0:46:570:47:02

willing to have a flexible and

imaginative solution which results

0:47:020:47:05

in special status. Or whatever one

wants to call it. That would be

0:47:050:47:10

afforded to the people of Northern

Ireland in this context.

What is

0:47:100:47:15

wrong, Nigel Mills was the bespoke

solution for Northern Ireland that

0:47:150:47:18

actually advantages people who live

here rather than disadvantages them?

0:47:180:47:25

This hasn't been done to have two

parts of the same country in two

0:47:250:47:29

different customs unions. In actual

fact the Northern Ireland should

0:47:290:47:32

come economy dart come on, Martina,

Denmark is a different country.

0:47:320:47:43

Northern Ireland has an extremely

large and important trading link. If

0:47:430:47:46

you create a customs border between

them that is a serious advantage to

0:47:460:47:50

the Norwich Irish -- Northern Irish

economy. I don't think splitting a

0:47:500:47:57

country economically is a realistic

solution and would be bad for the

0:47:570:48:01

economy was it will be impossible

politically.

That is what you are

0:48:010:48:04

trying to do with the island of

Ireland. What we have proposed is a

0:48:040:48:08

situation.

We don't need a border.

Let's live in the real world. Let's

0:48:080:48:14

talk about the free trade

arrangements, the EU has made clear

0:48:140:48:18

that if you want to leave the EU you

cannot expect to have its cake and

0:48:180:48:22

eat it, at can't go and retain all

of the benefits of membership. What

0:48:220:48:26

part of that is difficult to

understand.

We aren't asking to

0:48:260:48:29

retain membership but asking for the

best free-trade deal in the interest

0:48:290:48:34

of all members, in the same way that

they have done with many other

0:48:340:48:39

countries. The EU has a trade

surplus with the UK. We aren't

0:48:390:48:45

asking for anything particularly

difficult but to carry on trading as

0:48:450:48:49

previously. Everyone is agreed that

there will be no border on the

0:48:490:48:52

island of Ireland, no passport

controls or anything, that won't

0:48:520:48:57

happen, but it is the trading

relationship that needs to work in

0:48:570:49:00

the best way. I don't see how we

can't work that out if we can't even

0:49:000:49:04

talk about trade nearly nine months

of the way through this period we

0:49:040:49:08

can't start talking about what the

trading deal will look like, or how

0:49:080:49:13

to make it work.

Have you read the

Good Friday Agreement? Do you

0:49:130:49:19

understand strand two?

How do you

understand of what Nigel has said

0:49:190:49:25

that, the way it will be sorted out

is to move on to substantive trade

0:49:250:49:30

talks, phase two of the negotiations

and then we will see the colour of

0:49:300:49:34

people's money and then we can start

to find solutions. To continue stuck

0:49:340:49:40

on this seemingly intractable point

doesn't take anyone anywhere? Surely

0:49:400:49:43

there is a logic to what he is

saying.

Of course we need to move on

0:49:430:49:47

to but sufficient no leg progress

needs to be made on Northern

0:49:470:49:51

Ireland. The Good Friday Agreement,

strand two, the all Ireland Ireland

0:49:510:49:58

part of the agreement, 142 areas of

cooperation. What a Brexit border

0:49:580:50:04

would do would be to damage for

instance we have a situation where

0:50:040:50:11

in now Gavin Hospital in Derry

because of critical mass, and the

0:50:110:50:16

island of Ireland in the north-west

we have a radiotherapy unit

0:50:160:50:19

servicing the island. We also have a

children's heart surgery carried out

0:50:190:50:25

in Dublin but there are all Ireland

electricity markets and 142 areas of

0:50:250:50:33

cooperation of which 100 of them all

more are dependent on EU law and the

0:50:330:50:40

European Court of Justice. We have

to have, it is a no-brainer, to

0:50:400:50:46

preserve and protect the Good Friday

Agreement of the British Government

0:50:460:50:50

is a co-guarantor. We have to have a

special relationship with the EU in

0:50:500:50:56

order for us to do no more than

standstill.

How do you respond to

0:50:560:51:00

that, Nigel. The relationship that

Martina has just raised, 150 Dillie

0:51:000:51:07

Malherbe hundred and 42 -- 142

specific bespoke arrangements. How

0:51:070:51:16

do you deal with that their hard

border?

Let's look at the

0:51:160:51:21

Londonderry hospital referred to.

That is the main hospital is parts

0:51:210:51:27

of the Republic of Ireland. That is

based on an actual deal is not

0:51:270:51:33

reliant on any EU treaties so all

those things can be worked through

0:51:330:51:36

but strand one of the Good Friday

Agreement gives the UK gives the lap

0:51:360:51:42

sole competence on these affairs.

What we are trying to do is find the

0:51:420:51:46

best possible solution. If we can't

talk about the very issues we need

0:51:460:51:50

to resolve, we can't find a

solution.

Sammy Wilson of the DUP

0:51:500:51:59

said last week that any attempt

duplicates Dublin and the EU could

0:51:590:52:02

be a withdrawal of DUP, the supply

and confidence motion could be

0:52:020:52:07

withdrawal. Is he bluffing? I am in

no doubt he is entitled to his view.

0:52:070:52:17

The DUP might be angry if the

Northern Irish territories became a

0:52:170:52:27

separate part of the United Kingdom

and the EU. It is not practical

0:52:270:52:30

however, so on issues like farming

we could perhaps devolve powers to

0:52:300:52:37

the Northern Irish assembly and they

could have harmony and consistency

0:52:370:52:41

with the European Union, that seems

like a sensible way of going forward

0:52:410:52:45

on those issues. It won't work with

the fundamental constitutional laws

0:52:450:52:49

and the problem is Martina knows is

Sinn Fein have crashed the Northern

0:52:490:52:54

Ireland assembly so there is no

assembly to devolve powers to. It

0:52:540:52:57

doesn't make it any easier?

Let's be

very clear. Why we are where we are

0:52:570:53:05

today is because of allegations of

corruption and difficulties that we

0:53:050:53:09

have had in the assembly and on many

many issues, and what we need is a

0:53:090:53:17

good and practical city of

governments that will deliver for

0:53:170:53:21

all people. Sinn Fein will go into a

rights -based assembly in the

0:53:210:53:24

morning and what we have in partners

in government are Brexit is who

0:53:240:53:29

aren't even listening to their own

people. Their own people who will

0:53:290:53:32

accept a border, a deepening of the

relationship that is already there,

0:53:320:53:38

in practice that is there so that we

don't have a ball border on the

0:53:380:53:41

island. That is who the DUP needs to

listen to as well as all of the

0:53:410:53:49

people and represent all of the

people of the north who voted

0:53:490:53:52

overwhelmingly to remain.

Nigel,

final question, this summit on the

0:53:520:54:00

14th and 15th of December, that is

where the big decisions have to be

0:54:000:54:04

taken. Apparently. We need real

movements tomorrow if we are to hit

0:54:040:54:08

that target state in the middle of

the month. What do you expect to be

0:54:080:54:11

on the table by Theresa May in her

meeting with Jean-Claude Junker

0:54:110:54:16

tomorrow?

I think we reiterate the

fact that we have no plans to have a

0:54:160:54:19

hard border and we think that the

best way of thinking that is to move

0:54:190:54:22

to those trade talks. There has

apparently been progress on the

0:54:220:54:30

divorce Bill for example, and there

is a commitment to no hard border,

0:54:300:54:35

that is what we need to say and what

we have done is responding to those

0:54:350:54:39

offers and explain why they are

acceptable.

Thank you both.

0:54:390:54:44

Let's hear what our studio

guests think of that.

0:54:440:54:46

Newton Emerson and Patricia

MacBride are with me.

0:54:460:54:50

Newton, can you square the circle

after that? There was a lot of

0:54:500:54:54

confused issues there.

142 issues

for example those won't all Ireland

0:54:540:55:02

policies. They are devolved powers,

and restrictions will be left up to

0:55:020:55:08

us.

And there is a political point

behind that.

The practical issue is

0:55:080:55:17

trade however. Both were confused by

the idea of a sea border meaning is

0:55:170:55:26

staying in the customs union, but

these are not either or situations.

0:55:260:55:34

Port and border systems would allow

us to leave the customs union but

0:55:340:55:38

keep the land border open. That is

the point, we're not talking about

0:55:380:55:42

customs checks at the port Belfast

but rather extra electronic

0:55:420:55:45

paperwork that allows us foods to

flows freely with minimal

0:55:450:55:52

interference.

Patricia, do you think

bureaucrats who are quietly working

0:55:520:55:58

away on proposals on both sides in

this process of negotiation will

0:55:580:56:00

come up with some kind of solution

as Newton seems to suggest? Or

0:56:000:56:08

duplicitous and is -- do politicians

just not want to talk about it?

I

0:56:080:56:15

think there are three scenarios that

are apparently not to be accepted.

0:56:150:56:19

Not staying in the customs union,

except a hard border on the island

0:56:190:56:25

of Ireland or in the sea. One of

those has given that is the reality

0:56:250:56:28

of it. Newton talks about additional

paperwork at the ports when goods

0:56:280:56:35

are moved around. That may be the

case in terms of checking the bona

0:56:350:56:40

fides goods or whatever it is that's

being moved but it doesn't address

0:56:400:56:44

the issue of tariffs. I am certain

that there is a lot of work going on

0:56:440:56:48

in the background in terms of civil

servants in Ireland and I would hope

0:56:480:56:53

that the difference and the

difficulty is that in terms of Irish

0:56:530:56:59

diplomats they know the party line,

they have a clear steer from the

0:56:590:57:02

Irish government and the civil

servants aren't sure what the

0:57:020:57:07

ministers want and even today we

hear confusing messages from people

0:57:070:57:11

like Jacob Rees Mogg who doesn't

really understand what's happening

0:57:110:57:15

in Irish politics and is trying to

throw a spanner into the works based

0:57:150:57:19

on something that was settled five

days ago regarding a no-confidence

0:57:190:57:22

motion in the government.

Are you an

optimist in this? Are you saying

0:57:220:57:28

that mutually exclusive positions

are being set up, strawmen are being

0:57:280:57:31

built but ultimately things will be

resolved?

Looking at Donald Tusk's

0:57:310:57:37

statement in the Republic last week

everyone focused on his support

0:57:370:57:41

unity and strength for the Republic

but also in that speech he conceded

0:57:410:57:44

the UK to's main point is that trade

talks can begin only with out a

0:57:440:57:50

detailed answer on the board. That

makes the sea border the big idea

0:57:500:57:57

within which all the details can be

hammered out and that will take a

0:57:570:58:00

long time. Mostly what we need at

this stage is a different term to

0:58:000:58:03

see border, point of eight Unionist

antagonism right now. It doesn't

0:58:030:58:08

need to be is described that way.

That's pause for

0:58:080:58:11

Let's pause for a moment

That's pause for a moment.

0:58:120:58:15

and take a look back

0:58:150:58:16

at the political week in 60 Seconds

with Enda McClafferty...

0:58:160:58:19

It appears there is no life left in

the docks as Stormont goes into cold

0:58:190:58:24

storage.

We don't have a basis to

enter into talks process.

In the

0:58:240:58:30

Dail it is all change on the front

bench. Double jobbing Simon Coveney.

0:58:300:58:36

Don't detect any changes to Dublin's

stance on the border.

No one can

0:58:360:58:43

pretend Northern Ireland is

indifferent. We need an incredible

0:58:430:58:46

set of parameters within which we

can solve the border issues.

But the

0:58:460:58:50

DUP is adamant.

There won't be any

special arrangement for Northern

0:58:500:58:54

Ireland keeping us in the rules of a

customs union or the single market.

0:58:540:59:00

As politicians debate is just how

special we are, did we get the first

0:59:000:59:03

crack in the DUP Conservative pact?

If there is any hint that an order

0:59:030:59:10

to placate Dublin and the EU, they

are prepared Northern Ireland trade

0:59:100:59:15

differently than the rest of the

United Kingdom than they can't rely

0:59:150:59:18

on our vote.

0:59:180:59:20

Let's go back to our guests

for some final thoughts.

0:59:220:59:28

That's talk about the DUP and their

influence over the Conservatives at

0:59:280:59:31

the moment, and it's stated position

that it does not want to negotiate

0:59:310:59:37

or resile from its public position

on this critical issue for it as a

0:59:370:59:42

Unionist party.

Sammy Wilson's

comment there is very telling. He

0:59:420:59:46

sees that any negotiation or any

issue around the border and

0:59:460:59:50

concessions as he eased -- sees them

would be to placate Dublin but the

0:59:500:59:56

reality is it should be about

protecting living here. That is

0:59:561:00:02

where they need to focus. Something

has to give therefrom my

1:00:021:00:06

perspective. As the DUP said, the

idea of rebranding some sort of

1:00:061:00:12

control over the people and moving

in the Irish Sea, that is perhaps

1:00:121:00:19

the only solution. The DUP might

have to come round to thinking them.

1:00:191:00:24

If it involves a sweetener to move

them, to say it is going to happen

1:00:241:00:28

but it will be managed in such a way

where it will be still in control,

1:00:281:00:31

the idea of evolving regulatory

powers to Stormont will not fly in

1:00:311:00:36

my view because there is no workable

assembly and that will effect a good

1:00:361:00:43

change on the DUP.

Do you agree,

some kind of deal could be

1:00:431:00:48

forthcoming, a financial package for

Northern Ireland, and a way of

1:00:481:00:51

explaining yet that doesn't look

like a devolution of the union? That

1:00:511:00:54

is critical clearly.

There are

practical objections, the cost of

1:00:541:01:01

people's paperwork, hundreds of

pounds, and ways of funding extra

1:01:011:01:07

facilities at the border. One-off

payments or ongoing payments to

1:01:071:01:11

cover that... I disagree with

Patricia that this may ignore

1:01:111:01:19

Stormont's absence. It puts pressure

on both party to come in and manage

1:01:191:01:25

their situation. In terms of the DUP

you need to listen to the range of

1:01:251:01:29

opinions coming from them. Sammy

won't believe there was and is

1:01:291:01:32

trying to bring down the government

but Nigel Dodds dodges the subject.

1:01:321:01:36

He says he won't leave the customs

union. Those things are not

1:01:361:01:41

opposites and when you look at the

range of opinions and see how the

1:01:411:01:44

DUP leadership in particular are

sounding I think they are getting

1:01:441:01:47

ready for a fudge as well.

What do

you think, Patricia, we will see in

1:01:471:01:51

the meeting between Theresa May and

Jean-Claude Junker?

I don't think we

1:01:511:01:56

can parallel this to the

negotiations, where deadlines keep

1:01:561:02:00

getting shifted. I think the British

will have deep pits down a clear

1:02:001:02:03

marker as to the heads of agreement

on the key issues around the border

1:02:031:02:09

and around the divorce Bill as it

were so that is what we have CC

1:02:091:02:13

tomorrow in order to get to the

14th.

Interesting to see what

1:02:131:02:16

happens.

1:02:161:02:16

That's it.

1:02:161:02:17

Now back to Sarah in London....

1:02:171:02:18

Welcome back.

1:02:251:02:27

Tom, Isabel and Steve

are still with me.

1:02:271:02:33

Let's talk about a couple of the

interviews we heard earlier in the

1:02:331:02:37

programme. Let's start with Michael

Howard. He was putting up a very

1:02:371:02:41

strong defence of Damian Green and

harsh criticism of the police who

1:02:411:02:45

had been speaking out saying they

had reservations about what Damian

1:02:451:02:50

Green had been doing with his

Parliamentary computer. We surprised

1:02:501:02:56

at that, is about?

Not at all. There

is much support for Damian Green,

1:02:561:03:02

including Labour MPs. It is in

relation to how the police have

1:03:021:03:05

behaved over this. There is

discomfort among MPs about how the

1:03:051:03:09

police were involved in this. Most

people will have forgotten the

1:03:091:03:13

various dramas around that some

years ago when police were invited

1:03:131:03:17

into the Commons over a leak

investigation. MPs feel that was no

1:03:171:03:22

place for officers to be and they

are uncomfortable about the leaking

1:03:221:03:26

of this confidential information. I

think the question now is whether

1:03:261:03:30

Damian Green has lied about what he

did although she is ago. To me,

1:03:301:03:35

personally, and too many Tory MPs,

whether or not he viewed pawn ten

1:03:351:03:40

years ago or however long it was

ago, it was clearly inappropriate

1:03:401:03:46

behaviour on an office computer.

Perhaps if he had acknowledged it

1:03:461:03:50

and said he was going through a hard

time, he might get away with it. If

1:03:501:03:54

it is proven he lied and he is

finished, whether or not there are a

1:03:541:03:58

lot of sympathetic MPs over the way

he is being treated here.

It is

1:03:581:04:03

interesting how many MPs are

sympathetic. David Davis has

1:04:031:04:08

threatened to resign from the

Cabinet is Damian Green went.

This

1:04:081:04:18

goes back ten, 15 years of Tory

Party history. David Davis, Damian

1:04:181:04:23

Green and Theresa May or worked very

closely together. They were

1:04:231:04:28

horrified about the immigration

papers leaks. It was proven to be a

1:04:281:04:31

pretty bad thing that was done and

the police apologise. Moving on to

1:04:311:04:34

where we are now, it strikes me that

Theresa May is downed if she does

1:04:341:04:41

find Damian Green for being a

cover-up rather than the crime

1:04:411:04:46

himself, he has made a series of

statements about pornography on his

1:04:461:04:51

computer, it is not the possession

but how he tried to disguise it was

1:04:511:04:54

there. If she fires him, then she

will have terrible troubles with the

1:04:541:04:59

likes of David Davis and people

furious in the party, Andrew

1:04:591:05:03

Mitchell furious that the police are

calling the shots. If she does not

1:05:031:05:08

fire him, as some ministers in

government, some Tory MPs, who think

1:05:081:05:12

it is impossible for him to stay on

with the mess as it currently is and

1:05:121:05:21

his inconsistencies. She has made

this worse for herself by sitting

1:05:211:05:23

on, if not the full report but the

substance of it for some time now.

1:05:231:05:27

You think surely has the report that

has not looked at it yet.

She has

1:05:271:05:32

not seen the full report but has

been kept up to date with where it

1:05:321:05:35

is going and what the findings are.

She has been forced to take a very

1:05:351:05:40

tough decision, like Angela Merkel

always has and survived in politics

1:05:401:05:44

very well, by simply not taking that

decision, sometimes it works

1:05:441:05:50

brilliantly and events work-out but

sometimes it gets deeper.

Barry

1:05:501:05:56

Gardner was talking about Labour's

EU policies was that he would not

1:05:561:06:01

rule out a second referendum. He

made it clear it was not party

1:06:011:06:05

policy at the moment. I was asking

about Jeremy Corbyn saying he would

1:06:051:06:09

not rule out a second referendum.

Saying it was a possibility if there

1:06:091:06:14

was a two thirds threshold on it,

which is a new idea.

The position of

1:06:141:06:20

the Labour Party, and the smart one

for the time being, is to do what

1:06:201:06:24

Harold Wilson used to call keep all

options open. If there are big cries

1:06:241:06:30

for another referendum, opinion

polls from some of them who voted

1:06:301:06:37

Brexit when they see a deal, the

Labour leadership will come around

1:06:371:06:40

and say they will support a

referendum. They are being wholly

1:06:401:06:45

pragmatic about this, as most

opposition parties are when dealing

1:06:451:06:49

with Europe. Before 97, Tony Blair

was in favour of the single currency

1:06:491:06:53

but loving the pound. This ambiguity

is a feature of politics in Europe.

1:06:531:07:00

They are in a broadly smart position

for now.

Ambiguity, some might call

1:07:001:07:07

it inconsistency.

I call it cynicism

myself.

Can it work for them?

It is

1:07:071:07:16

extraordinary cynical. I have seen

some lame polls of small samples

1:07:161:07:21

which purport to show there is a

contingency of people who want

1:07:211:07:24

another referendum. It comes down to

how you phrase the question. This

1:07:241:07:29

was the biggest democratic mandate

for a decision to be taken that we

1:07:291:07:33

have had in history. Most people

just want Brexit to get gone. I

1:07:331:07:39

think there is an extraordinary 50

quid Brexit at the moment, even

1:07:391:07:44

amongst the people who wanted to

happen. People wanted over with nets

1:07:441:07:48

get on with building the new feature

for the country. -- and let's get

1:07:481:07:56

on.

1:07:561:07:58

Now, you know how the old cliche

goes: if you're not a Liberal

1:07:581:08:01

when you're young then

you've no heart.

1:08:011:08:03

And if you're not

a Conservative when you're old,

1:08:031:08:05

then you've no brain.

1:08:051:08:06

Well, it seems the Conservative

Party might be getting a bit

1:08:061:08:09

worried it's true.

1:08:091:08:10

According to a report

in The Guardian this week,

1:08:101:08:12

party chiefs were concerned

after surveys of public opinion

1:08:121:08:14

showed that while Conservatives

are seen as more credible

1:08:141:08:16

on their policies, Labour are well

ahead amongst voters when it

1:08:161:08:19

comes to compassion.

1:08:191:08:20

But can that be right,

and which matters more

1:08:201:08:22

to the British public ?

1:08:221:08:23

We sent reporter Emma Vardy out

into the cold with our rather

1:08:231:08:26

unscientific moodbox.

1:08:261:08:31

Tories have been told that polling

suggests that people think

1:08:311:08:33

Conservatives are competent when it

comes to their policies but not

1:08:331:08:36

caring enough when it

comes to their values.

1:08:361:08:39

So, we're in the Tory marginal

of Putney to ask people

1:08:391:08:42

what's more important,

competence or compassion?

1:08:421:08:47

Compassion.

1:08:471:08:48

Why is that?

1:08:481:08:50

Because it affects all of us.

1:08:501:08:52

Compassion.

1:08:521:08:57

I think they forget

that it is real people they are

1:08:571:09:00

governing, it is not

just about the budget.

1:09:001:09:02

It is about the budget, obviously,

balancing the books, but

1:09:021:09:04

I think you need to think about

the little people, like these two.

1:09:041:09:08

Like these.

1:09:081:09:09

Competence, surely.

1:09:091:09:11

Because if they are not,

then we're going to

1:09:111:09:14

need even more compassion because

there will be even more people

1:09:141:09:16

suffering.

1:09:161:09:18

Thank you so much.

1:09:181:09:19

Thank you.

1:09:191:09:20

There are a lot of competent people

who can take care of a job

1:09:201:09:23

but a lot of these competent people

don't really have compassion.

1:09:231:09:26

It has to be competence.

1:09:261:09:27

It has to be.

1:09:271:09:28

Why competence?

1:09:281:09:30

At the end of the day,

obviously compassion is

1:09:301:09:32

extremely important but due

to the state our finances are in,

1:09:321:09:36

competence has to be the way

to go, unfortunately.

1:09:361:09:39

Competence, I think.

1:09:391:09:40

Why's that?

1:09:401:09:41

Well, because they seem to be paid

1:09:411:09:44

very well and don't have a lot

of competence and fail this country

1:09:441:09:47

miserably.

1:09:471:09:50

People need to have a heart.

1:09:501:09:57

If they're competent and don't

have a heart, it's worthless.

1:09:571:09:59

Competence.

1:09:591:10:01

You can't have fools

running the country.

1:10:011:10:02

Well, I think that anybody

who is in parliament

1:10:021:10:04

should be conpetent.

1:10:041:10:05

Otherwise you shouldn't

be an MP in the first

1:10:051:10:08

place, whatever party they are.

1:10:081:10:09

Do they have enough compassion?

1:10:091:10:10

No.

1:10:101:10:11

But then who does have enough

compassion these days?

1:10:111:10:13

Hardly anybody, my dear.

1:10:131:10:15

Should politicians do it

from the heart, do you think?

1:10:151:10:17

No.

1:10:171:10:18

And I think they should

do it from the heart.

1:10:181:10:20

I think they just swerve everything.

1:10:201:10:23

I am a heart on my sleeve man

and I love that honesty,

1:10:231:10:26

that genuine feel, enthusiasm.

1:10:261:10:27

I can tell you are.

1:10:271:10:28

I'm feeling the warmth.

1:10:281:10:29

Thank you very much.

1:10:291:10:31

Pleasure.

1:10:311:10:32

Seems like it could be time

for the Tory Party to

1:10:321:10:34

enter the season of goodwill.

1:10:341:10:36

Here in Putney, it

was a narrow victory

1:10:361:10:38

over competence for compassion.

1:10:381:10:49

Emma in Putney. Let's bring the

discussion into the studio. Are the

1:10:491:10:53

Tories right? M BBC and is competent

and not compassionate? Does it

1:10:531:11:01

matter?

The bigger worry is that

they are not being seen as competent

1:11:011:11:06

and that is fatal for a government.

The two are connected full study

1:11:061:11:11

cannot be compassionate because that

involves public spending if you are

1:11:111:11:16

not competent. With respect to the

brilliant film, it is a slight

1:11:161:11:22

juxtaposition. Many Tory MPs return

from the last election saying we are

1:11:221:11:29

seen again as the mean party. I was

getting endless complaints about

1:11:291:11:34

school cuts, health cuts and so on.

But competence is the key. If you

1:11:341:11:40

lose that, you're doomed as the

Government.

Time for Theresa May to

1:11:401:11:46

start hugging huskies?

That so well.

I broadly agree with Steve,

1:11:461:11:52

obviously you have to be competent.

This is a huge problem for the Tory

1:11:521:11:57

Party, particularly among young

voters thought it was high time the

1:11:571:12:00

Tory Party stopped letting labour

monopolise the moral high ground on

1:12:001:12:07

everything. Apart from the fact I'm

sure he believes it in his heart

1:12:071:12:11

when you are seeing figures like

Michael Gove really embracing

1:12:111:12:17

so-called softer causes like

environmentalism and animal welfare.

1:12:171:12:20

The Tories must do that to win over

young voters.

They have did do that.

1:12:201:12:27

Can they do it?

Compassion versus

competence is the age of problem the

1:12:271:12:31

Tory Party have had for years and it

is the same with the Labour Party.

1:12:311:12:36

Tony Blair pulled that trick

brilliantly in 1997. The Tories can

1:12:361:12:43

do that. But it will not shift the

barometer too much. To make inroads

1:12:431:12:52

on compassion, the Tories will have

to reorganise whether money is in

1:12:521:12:56

Britain and help out younger people,

the socially immobile. That is where

1:12:561:13:01

the problem is. They have no money

and no majority. If you cannot get

1:13:011:13:08

stuffed through the House of Commons

you cannot change the country. That

1:13:081:13:11

is where they will be stuck until

the next election.

Thank you all for

1:13:111:13:16

being with us this afternoon.

1:13:161:13:22

That's all for today -

thanks to all my guests

1:13:221:13:24

and my three amigos here.

1:13:241:13:25

Join me again next Sunday

at 11 here on BBC One

1:13:251:13:28

for more Sunday Politics.

1:13:281:13:29

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:291:13:36

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