10/12/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


10/12/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning everyone and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith and I'll be bringing

you your essential briefing

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on all the top political

stories this week.

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She's done the easy bit,

now comes the hard part.

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As we move on to trade

and transition talks with the EU,

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just what sort of deal

is the Prime Minister aiming for?

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The issue of trade across the Irish

border is likely to dominate

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those talks, we'll speak

to the Northern Ireland

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Secretary James Brokenshire

about what he thinks a solution

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to the problem could look like.

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Momentum, the group set up

to support Jeremy Corbyn,

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is facing allegations it's trying

to take over the Labour

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And here - Sammy Wilson of the DUP

and John O'Dowd of Sinn Fein discuss

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the Brexit border deal.

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We'll also have the UUP,

SDLP and Alliance and expert

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analysis in an extended programme -

in half an hour.

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Is the government doing enough?

in half an hour.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today to try to make

sense of is all, three journalists

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who are in full alignment with this

week's political developments.

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Tim Shipman, Helen

Lewis and Toby Young.

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The cliche that a week is a long

time in politics has

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never been more apt.

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As Theresa May first appeared to be

the brink of collapse,

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and then claimed victory with a deal

to allow Brexit talks to move

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on to the next phase.

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Deal or no deal?

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The question that took

Theresa May to Brussels not

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once but twice this week.

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On Monday it seemed

it was all sorted.

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Time to move onto talks about trade.

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Then in stepped Arlene Foster.

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Northern Ireland must

leave the European

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Union on the same terms as the rest

of the United Kingdom.

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So lunch was left to go

cold in Brussels as the

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PM rushed home to try

and save the deal.

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The problem ran along

the Irish border.

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Did promises of regulatory

alignment mean Northern

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Ireland would operate differently

from the rest of the UK?

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Unionist alarm bells

could be heard in

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Westminster where Theresa May

relies on their support.

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While others saw their

chance to tell their own

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bespoke Brexit deal.

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So back to the drawing

board and a chance for

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Labour to stick the boot in.

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What an embarrassment.

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Shambles.

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The last 24 hours have

given a new meaning to

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the phrase coalition of chaos.

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There was a tricky

moment for the Brexit

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secretary as he was quizzed over his

economic impact studies that don't

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actually exist.

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So there isn't one,

for example, on the automotive

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sector.

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On the automotive sector.

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Is there one on aerospace?

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No.

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One on financial services?

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I think the answer is

going to be no to all of

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them.

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Right.

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By the Chancellor admitted

the Cabinet has not yet

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debated future European

trading relations.

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The Cabinet has had general

discussions about how Brexit

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negotiations but we haven't had

a specific, er, mandate of the

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position.

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At Prime Minister's Questions

Brexiteers reminded the PM

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they too had lines

they wouldn't cross.

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Will she apply a new coat of paint

to her red lines because I

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fear on Monday they were beginning

to look a little bit pink.

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Talks through the night

on Thursday and

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finally, white smoke.

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Tweeted by Jean-Claude

Juncker's chief of staff

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to signal a deal had been done.

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4am Friday.

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The red eye back to Brussels,

the Brexit Secretary's

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face told the story of a long night.

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A tweak of the words

and a deal agreed.

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Sufficient progress has now

been made on the strict

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terms of the divorce.

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Not everyone was happy.

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There are still matters

there that we would have liked

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to have seen clarified.

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The whole thing is a humiliation.

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In a letter yesterday

Environment Secretary Michael Gove

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said voters could change the deal

if they don't like it.

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At the next general election.

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Let's unpack a week of remarkable

political developments with our

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panel.

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Tim, the papers are claiming a

marvellous victory for Theresa May,

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but this is a problem of her own

making she managed to dig herself

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out of?

The government announced

immediately they had got a deal and

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it took them two and a half weeks to

nail it down. It is worth

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remembering that when she went off

to Brussels to Jean-Claude Juncker

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who said, don't come here unless you

are ready to go. Theresa May kicked

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him out of his office for an hour

while she begged Arlene Foster to

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get in line and initially, it wasn't

happening because they hadn't nailed

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it down. People say, why weren't all

these civil servants and people who

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know about how to deal with these

guys, engaged in this process? The

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separation between the Northern

Ireland Office and Downing Street,

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the whip office was negligent and

they should have been holding hands

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with the DUP and Tilly was taken

over the line. Disaster was only

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narrowly averted. They were saying

earlier in the week, this is a

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catastrophe and Theresa May needs to

go.

But she pulled it out in the

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end. We were talking about takeover

plots, Theresa May might lose her

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job and now it is a victory.

When

you are talking about this, you have

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to divorce the theatre around it and

the last-minute concessions, which

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will not end. The question is what

happens when the Forge recedes.

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Everyone has something out of this

deal because there is no clarity.

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Arlene Foster said they wanted

clarity. Both sides when they get

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the clarity will be unhappy, but the

question is what they will do about

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it.

Toby, both people on both sides

of the Brexit debate in the Tory

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party, who are claiming they are

very, very happy. They can't all be

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happy.

I am not surprised the

Brexiteers our content. There are

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various things the remain as

predicted couldn't be achieved. They

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thought they would be a backbench

rebellion. Now that looks like the

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divorce bill will sail through. A

lot of Remainers thought the state

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is of EU nationals would remain

uncertain for long time. This makes

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no Deal Brexit less likely that was

always the Remainers best of

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reversing the result of the

referendum.

Now we're left with the

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question, what does full alignment

mean. David Davis asked that that

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this morning.

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It means outcomes.

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It means...

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If I arrived in two

cars, they are next

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to each other.

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Well, Northern Ireland is next

to the Republic of Ireland.

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Yes, and it will have next

to regulations, it will be very

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similar.

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There will be some similarities.

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Again, the Prime Minister

laid this out in her

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Florence speech.

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She said there are areas

where we will want similar

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outcomes and we'll have similar

methods to achieve them.

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There will be areas

where we have similar

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outcomes where there will be

different methods to achieve them.

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That's going to be true of a lot

of product areas, a lot of

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manufacturing.

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There will be areas where we want

different outcomes and

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we will use different methods.

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That was clear as mud, Toby, what do

you think full alignment means?

I

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don't think we should spend as much

time as you seem to want to,

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discussing it. As Michael Gove

clarified, it doesn't have any legal

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force. It doesn't have any binding,

legal force. It hasn't got to the

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stage of the treaty. It might be

difficult to unwind because it is

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the basis of an agreement. But

nonetheless, it is not binding and a

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lot is left to play for.

It is what

got the DUP on-board, finding a form

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of words which could be what you

wanted them to.

People wanting

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immigration cut without the economy

taking a hit. The same thing with

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the DUP, they want to stay aligned

to prison, but they don't want their

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agriculture, Northern Ireland is one

of the biggest industries, to take a

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massive hit from a hard border. So

you are trying to reconcile two

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contradictory impulses. That Philip

Hammond clip is extraordinary saying

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the Cabinet have a discuss where

they think this ends up in the end.

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That is where the row will be.

Number Ten is specifically briefing

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full alignment, so we haven't solved

anything.

It is a verb, he converge,

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I don't do converge, we have full

alignment. The Conservative Party

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managed to get through a general

election where they had half of

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their supporters hardline. This may

help them keep the show on the road.

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We will be talking to all three of

you throughout the programme.

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So it was the arrangements

to avoid a hard border

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between Northern Ireland

and the Republic that

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threatened to scupper progress

in the Brexit talks.

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And there remains confusion

over exactly what it

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is that's been agreed.

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Hopefully we can clarify some

of that with the Secretary of State

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for Northern Ireland

James Brokenshire.

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Thanks for coming in. Can we go back

to the beginning of the week and the

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discussions with the DUP. Where you

involved in that?

It is worth

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stressing this is a fast-moving

situation. When the Prime Minister

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was in Brussels at the start of the

week, the text hadn't been agreed.

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That is why we've got the conclusion

with the text effectively now being

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able to go on to the second phase.

Where you part of the back and

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forward between Number Ten and the

DUP?

I don't want to get into the

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details, but I have been involved,

supporting the Prime Minister and

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making sure we have got sufficient

progress and why we have the benefit

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of moving into phase two, which is

worth we can solve the issues with

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relation to Northern Ireland.

He was

a significant failure at the

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beginning of the week to flight to

Brussels without the DUP agreeing on

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the text.

It was a fast-moving

situation.

Why go for lunch with

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Jean-Claude Juncker if there wasn't

agreed text?

It was to continue the

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discussions.

The Prime Minister

didn't think she had a deal on

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Monday, she went to Brussels knowing

there wasn't an agreement with the

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DUP.

The text wasn't agreed, as I

have underlined on a few occasions

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already in this interview. It is how

we have secured what we needed to

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do. We needed to give that assurance

in relation to Northern Ireland's

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constitutional status in ensuring

trade between Northern Ireland and

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Great Britain could remain

unfettered. That is important and we

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can now solve this on phase two.

The

agreement said there would be full

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alignment with the EU in the event

of no deal. It doesn't say anything

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how you will avoid a hard border if

there is a trade deal with the EU.

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You are looking at paragraph 49 of

the agreement. First and foremost,

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this is about securing a free trade

agreement. Secondly, if that isn't

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sufficient you move onto specific

solutions to deal with the unique

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circumstances of Northern Ireland.

Only through an agreed outcome, do

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you move on to the issue of

alignment, which I'm sure we will

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discuss further.

Your preferred

option is to have the free trade.

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Absolutely.

Nothing has been solved

on how you avoid a hard border

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between Northern Ireland and the

republic if you have a free-trade

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deal.

We were never going to solve

this in the first phase how this

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agreement, we want to secure is

firmly in Ireland's interest, given

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the nature of trade between Ireland

and the whole of the United Kingdom.

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That is why we go into this second

phase with confidence we can secure

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the positive outcome, which is the

best way to solve this.

The Irish

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Taoiseach says it is clear in which

way it is going. He says we believe

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the UK and Northern Ireland will

remain in alignment with the EU. Is

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that your understanding?

I think he

underlines we could come to

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different arrangements. It wasn't

about the same, somehow we would

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stay within the customs union, the

single market. We are not. The text

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says clearly, we are leaving and

Northern Ireland will be part of

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that. Having shared outcomes may

mean we may achieve that to the same

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or substantially the same way, or

very differently.

It cannot be too

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different if you have to maintain

this idea you don't have a hard

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border between Northern Ireland and

the republic. How does this allow

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you to strike free trade deals with

the United States for instance, if

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you have got to maintain either

alignment or come to some of the

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United States for instance, if you

have got to maintain either

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alignment or come to some other

border solution?

Let's take a couple

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of examples. In relation to data

daylight, have your prescription

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service nor those -- north or south

of the border. How that can converge

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between Ireland and the UK. Things

like agriculture.

Let's talk about

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agriculture. If we were to strike a

free trade deal with the US, they

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have made it clear we will have to

diverged from EU rules on some

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agricultural standards, like

chlorine washed chicken, how can we

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do the kind of deal the US will

insist on and still maintain these

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border arrangements?

We are yet to

get into those discussions.

They

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have been to London and they have

said, if we stay too closely aligned

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with the EU we will be able to get a

deal with the US.

We're not going to

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somehow compromise our food safety

standards to have a race to the

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bottom. That is why knowing the

integrated nature of the food sector

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on island, is why we said we are

proud to look at alignment with

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agricultural standards.

That tie

your hands. Why does the former

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Brexit minister himself say it will

handicap our ability to enter into

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free-trade arrangements?

We have

difference across the United Kingdom

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over some of these devolved issues.

It doesn't create barriers within

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the UK market. We are compliant with

the same rules as the EU and it is

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positive decisions we might take.

When it comes down to this issue,

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there won't be this race to the

bottom in relation to standards.

It

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is important to understand. You are

tying the government's hands in its

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ability to strike the free trade

deals that was supposed to create

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the optimistic post Brexit future

proclaimed by the government.

It is

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why we want to yes, secure the

positive free-trade agreement, Abbas

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Bogue agreement with our EU

partners, but equally, which we

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don't have, the flexibility to

negotiate trade deals around the

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world so have the benefit of having

to do that.

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The answer to this free trade deals

is how you manage the border between

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the Republic of Ireland and Northern

Ireland, that has not been answered.

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We've set up the framework, we've

not been able to have these

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discussions yet. That's why it was

so important, where it was a really

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positive achievement that Theresa

May secured by moving into phase two

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where we can do just that. To look

at all these different elements we

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been working hard on with the EU

that need to be solved whether

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through the free trade agreement,

whether through specific

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circumstances to meet these issues,

and protecting the ability from

0:16:320:16:39

people to move from Northern

Ireland's, into the Republic, really

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importantly underlining the

significance of the Good Friday

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Agreement.

The Prime Minister

significantly said no deal was

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better than a bad deal. What this

means in Brussels as if there is no

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do we have to stay in full alignment

with the rules and regulations, is

0:16:580:17:02

that the possible?

Is the document

states, nothing is agreed until

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everything is agreed.

In the

situation of no deal, nothing would

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be agreed and that is the

circumstance in which this deal

0:17:140:17:19

kicks in...?

This document doesn't

commit in that way. We are not

0:17:190:17:23

contemplating a notable situation.

The Prime Minister has frequently

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contemplated that, saying no deal is

better than a bad deal.

I think it

0:17:290:17:32

says this in a good way, to secure

this positive outcome that agreement

0:17:320:17:38

with our EU partners. We will only

do that if it is acceptable. Under

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the no deal statements that the

Prime Minister has made.

When this

0:17:440:17:49

agreement says, in the event of no

deal, we will maintain full

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alignment, you say this doesn't mean

no deal?

This document doesn't deal

0:17:530:17:59

with no deal. That's what I'm

saying. Paragraph five...

So in the

0:17:590:18:04

absence of agreed solutions the UK

will maintain full alignment with

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the rules of the customs union?

Paragraph five scissors and

0:18:080:18:14

agreement being reached...

So you

need an agreement before you have

0:18:140:18:20

absence of agreed solutions.

It is

about the three tiered approach will

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take, free-trade agreements, dealing

with unique circumstances and then

0:18:240:18:27

moving onto the alignment issues. It

is this three tiered approach that

0:18:270:18:31

will inform the negotiations. This

is why I say this provides us with a

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positive backdrop to go into phase

two, to get positive outcomes in

0:18:360:18:40

ensuring there is no barrier between

the Republic of Ireland and Northern

0:18:400:18:43

Ireland. I take the positive

viewpoint, around getting agreement,

0:18:430:18:50

securing that bright positive future

for Northern Ireland and the UK as a

0:18:500:18:54

whole which is what that does.

James

Brokenshire, thank you. Tim, are you

0:18:540:19:01

a clearer? On what has been agreed?

Much less clear. What is the scope

0:19:010:19:07

of this alignment issue? If you

listen to government ministers, and

0:19:070:19:11

David Davis earlier and James has

said nothing that contradicts that,

0:19:110:19:14

you are talking about big areas like

agriculture and energy. David Davis

0:19:140:19:19

said it would cover four areas, is

put to someone in the Irish

0:19:190:19:23

government has said and covered 142

areas, there's quite a big gap

0:19:230:19:26

between them and we haven't yet

bridged that intellectually, it

0:19:260:19:31

seems.

And not much clearer on what

if there is no deal.

We would crash

0:19:310:19:36

out which would be definitely worse

than a bad deal. An appalling

0:19:360:19:39

outcome. I think the whole issue of

these agricultural standards is

0:19:390:19:44

fascinating because it reveals the

difference between the average Leave

0:19:440:19:48

voter and the average person on the

right, the free trader who is not

0:19:480:19:54

worried about safety standards and

is fine with chlorine tipped chicken

0:19:540:19:58

but we no one that free-trade Dale

got bounced out of contention one

0:19:580:20:02

thing that revolted people with the

idea of lower animal safety

0:20:020:20:06

standards, food covered in bacteria

then washed in chlorine. So you have

0:20:060:20:10

one wing of the Tory party who are

OK with that and people who voted

0:20:100:20:14

Leave who are not.

Is it still on

the table, this idea of no deal?

It

0:20:140:20:21

has to be, until we've concluded a

deal, because otherwise our

0:20:210:20:27

negotiating position is weaker. In

some ways the way that we've managed

0:20:270:20:30

to agree on what the status of EU

National 's would-be and what the

0:20:300:20:34

role of the ECJ would be for eight

years after we leave, suggest that

0:20:340:20:38

even in the absence of a trade deal

or even a transition deal being

0:20:380:20:43

successfully negotiated we could

nonetheless put a minimal deal in

0:20:430:20:46

place which could guarantee the

rights of UK National is here and

0:20:460:20:50

British nationals in Europe. So in

that way it makes no deal a little

0:20:500:20:55

less unpalatable but I think we will

still get a deal.

Thanks for that.

0:20:550:21:01

Well, discussions of

what the government wants its final

0:21:010:21:03

deal to look like also brings

into focus what Labour's

0:21:030:21:05

plans would be.

0:21:050:21:06

Speaking this morning Labour's

Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer

0:21:060:21:08

argued that Britain should remain

as close to the EU as possible.

0:21:080:21:13

How we negotiate that agreement

with the EU is a matter for

0:21:130:21:16

negotiation.

0:21:160:21:17

It doesn't mean it's cut

and paste, but we do have a

0:21:170:21:20

choice, do we want to stay aligned

so we can trade successfully or do

0:21:200:21:23

we want to tear apart?

0:21:230:21:24

And I say we should stay aligned.

0:21:240:21:26

We are talking about

what sort of Britain we are

0:21:260:21:28

going to be and what the next 40

or 50 years might look like.

0:21:280:21:32

I don't think anybody

voted to make it

0:21:320:21:33

harder to trade with Europe.

0:21:330:21:37

Emily Thornberry, Labour's shadow

foreign affairs spokesperson, is

0:21:370:21:40

with me now. Thank you for coming

in. That was Keir Starmer this

0:21:400:21:44

morning. I don't want to put words

into his mouth or yours but I

0:21:440:21:49

interpret that as saying, we are not

staying in the single market, that

0:21:490:21:53

is not the Labour position but we

want to maintain many of the

0:21:530:21:56

arrangements we have with the single

market. Is that right?

We've always

0:21:560:22:00

said we have to accept the results

of the referendum, we have some

0:22:000:22:04

tests to be abided by to get a good

deal so we need to be able to get

0:22:040:22:09

the full advantage of access to the

single market and the customs union.

0:22:090:22:12

To achieve that what Keir Starmer

seemed to be saying was that was a

0:22:120:22:17

closely aligned to the rules and

regulations of the EU, possibly even

0:22:170:22:21

pay for access to the free market

and while free movement of people

0:22:210:22:24

wouldn't he said they should be easy

movement of people from the UK to

0:22:240:22:28

the EU and vice versa. Is that

really respecting the referendum

0:22:280:22:31

result?

We have to leave the

European Union that there's no

0:22:310:22:36

reason why we don't need go a long

way. It would not be respecting the

0:22:360:22:41

referendum and the sentiment that

has expressed during the referendum

0:22:410:22:45

if we did not move, after leaving

the European Union, to a system

0:22:450:22:49

where we had fair rules and managed

migration, so people could easily

0:22:490:22:52

travel across Europe and those that

we need to have an ox economy - this

0:22:520:22:58

we need an our economy can stay and

that will help us.

If we are staying

0:22:580:23:07

closely aligned to the rules and

regulations of the EU why we have no

0:23:070:23:10

say in the formation of those rules

how is that taking back control?

0:23:100:23:16

We're going to leave and it seems to

us that people wanted to leave, they

0:23:160:23:20

wanted some form of control over

migration and fair rules and managed

0:23:200:23:24

migration is what we want but they

did not vote to lose their jobs

0:23:240:23:27

offer their neighbours to lose their

jobs. We need to prioritise the

0:23:270:23:33

economy and trade when it came to

negotiations and people should be in

0:23:330:23:35

no doubt that our biggest trading

partner is the European Union. It

0:23:350:23:40

would be economically ridiculous for

us to march off into the Atlantic

0:23:400:23:44

and say, we are turning our backs on

the European Union. To go into deals

0:23:440:23:48

with them we'd need the same rules

when it came to our exporting of

0:23:480:23:54

carrots or anything else. If you

want to export vacuum cleaners to

0:23:540:23:57

Europe they need to have the same

safety standards as the rest of

0:23:570:24:00

Europe.

Do you think people who

voted to leave will be happy that we

0:24:000:24:06

would follow and mirror the rules

and regulations of EU when we have

0:24:060:24:11

no say in their creation now, we

become will takers and not makers?

0:24:110:24:16

What we've said is that we need an

interim period when we negotiate

0:24:160:24:22

properly and have a long-standing

relationship with EU. When it comes

0:24:220:24:26

to exporting goods clearly we need

the same standards and don't want to

0:24:260:24:29

undercut European standards, nobody

wants and implement controls, we

0:24:290:24:33

need all these things to be less in

Britain than in the rest of Europe,

0:24:330:24:37

well, some Tories do but we don't

and we are clear about that.

That

0:24:370:24:42

would constrain our ability to sign

free trade deals with other

0:24:420:24:47

countries. The more closely aligned

we stay with EU the less movement we

0:24:470:24:51

will have to sign a new deal with

the USA for example.

What we need is

0:24:510:24:57

a custom-built arrangement between

Britain and the rest of Europe. We'd

0:24:570:25:00

need to be in a form of the customs

union and closely aligned to the

0:25:000:25:04

single market and that might give us

room to make the that is something

0:25:040:25:08

we need to be involved in

negotiation...

That is clearly of

0:25:080:25:12

secondary importance to you, the

ability to strike new deals with

0:25:120:25:17

third countries.

We've always been

pragmatic, most of our trade has

0:25:170:25:22

been with EU. We're just stating a

fact and we shouldn't put the kibosh

0:25:220:25:26

on that.

Are you happy with the

agreement Theresa May struck this

0:25:260:25:30

week?

Really don't understand it.

I've looked at it, I don't

0:25:300:25:35

understand. I think probably what

she is doing is she's rubbed at some

0:25:350:25:41

of her red lines, and that's good

because you shouldn't go into

0:25:410:25:45

negotiations with hard red lines

like she has. I don't understand how

0:25:450:25:48

on one hand she is saying she's

going to align and on the other hand

0:25:480:25:53

will be out of the single market on

the customs union. It doesn't really

0:25:530:25:57

make any sense to me.

I thought that

was the position you said Labour

0:25:570:26:01

win, leaving the single market on

the customs union but wanting to

0:26:010:26:04

stay aligned to Europe and is

regulations...

They say they've

0:26:040:26:09

swept any form of customs union of

the table. That's what I understand.

0:26:090:26:14

She is swept away any suggestion

that the European Court of Justice

0:26:140:26:17

would have anything to do with any

rules. She seems to be busily

0:26:170:26:20

putting them back on the table

again. That's probably a good thing.

0:26:200:26:24

What a waste of time. Because

wouldn't it have been good to have

0:26:240:26:28

began on a pragmatic, realistic

basis and we might have got further

0:26:280:26:31

than we have now. We are running out

of time.

What is Labour's answer to

0:26:310:26:37

the question of the border between

the northern Ireland and the

0:26:370:26:43

Republic of Ireland, how do you

avoid hardboard?

The further we go

0:26:430:26:46

from the EU, the harder it is to

have a soft border. What we have

0:26:460:26:49

said without that a form of customs

union is a viable option. Melbourne

0:26:490:26:53

has come up with any other

suggestion.

This idea, it says in

0:26:530:26:57

the agreement that was struck with

EU in the absence of any other

0:26:570:27:01

agreement, this idea that we would

maintain the full alignment with the

0:27:010:27:05

rules and regulations come you are

satisfied that it works well for the

0:27:050:27:08

UK and EU and solves the border

question?

Of course there has to be

0:27:080:27:13

a form of alignment, of course the

European Court of Justice need staff

0:27:130:27:17

an ongoing relationship with British

justice in the way we put forward

0:27:170:27:20

rules when we are working with the

rest of the EU. Why have we denied

0:27:200:27:26

at all this time, it is self-evident

and continues to be so.

It is

0:27:260:27:32

proposed that an amendment be put

forward that would give MPs a

0:27:320:27:36

meaningful vote on this while there

is still time for more negotiation

0:27:360:27:40

rather than at the end of

negotiations, will Labour support

0:27:400:27:43

that?

We have always said this. From

the outset we have said, why should

0:27:430:27:48

parliaments across the rest of

Europe have a vote on this, and the

0:27:480:27:52

European Parliament have a vote, the

people of Walloons will have a lot

0:27:520:27:56

in it, why not the British people?

That has to be a meaningful vote. --

0:27:560:28:02

one at the British Parliament. They

will have to factor in what the

0:28:020:28:05

British Parliament thinks. And many

people in the British Parliament

0:28:050:28:08

will not accept no deal, for

example. If they think they are

0:28:080:28:11

going to come to the British

Parliament with no deal is an option

0:28:110:28:14

they have another think coming.

There's another amendment to the Lib

0:28:140:28:17

Dems want, to put forward the option

of remaining in the single market.

0:28:170:28:22

Vince Cable has said it is

specifically designed to flush out

0:28:220:28:26

the Labour Party by asking straight

out will you support this amendment

0:28:260:28:29

or not with the option of staying in

the single market. How would Labour

0:28:290:28:34

vote on that?

We are leaving the EU,

we need a custom made deal with the

0:28:340:28:40

EU. We need to be able to respect

the views of the British people as

0:28:400:28:44

expressed in the referendum and one

debate was about ensuring that we

0:28:440:28:47

have more control of migration.

We've been told that the four

0:28:470:28:51

freedoms mean we can't stay in the

single market as it currently is so

0:28:510:28:55

we need a different deal. Those

other things we should have focused

0:28:550:28:59

on rack from the outset.

Emily

Thornberry, thank you very much for

0:28:590:29:03

coming in this morning.

0:29:030:29:05

There have been a number of reports

in the press recently accusing

0:29:050:29:08

the Labour pressure group Momentum

of forcing serving Labour

0:29:080:29:10

councillors off the ballot paper

for re-election in favour

0:29:100:29:12

of their own candidates.

0:29:120:29:13

Sources close to Momentum argue

they are simply helping to reflect

0:29:130:29:16

the new make-up of the Labour Party.

0:29:160:29:18

So is there any truth

in the allegations?

0:29:180:29:20

Elizabeth Glinka has been

to Brighton to find out.

0:29:200:29:30

They say to keep your

friends close and your

0:29:300:29:32

enemies closer, and in

the

0:29:320:29:36

Labour Party in Brighton they are

0:29:360:29:37

very close indeed. Here, as in many

other parts of the country,

0:29:370:29:45

there are suggestions that Momentum

is attempting to seize control and

0:29:450:29:50

ultimately replace sitting

councillors with candidates of their

0:29:500:29:52

own choosing.

0:29:520:29:57

Two weeks ago Momentum won

all nine positions on the

0:29:570:29:59

committee which will organise

the selection of candidates

0:29:590:30:01

for the next City Council

elections in 2019.

0:30:010:30:03

Local activists have spoken

about installing the first Socialist

0:30:030:30:05

council in the city, the implication

being that the current Labour

0:30:050:30:08

council is not quite

socialist enough.

0:30:080:30:09

If you talk to people from Momentum,

they will say to you, we

0:30:090:30:17

have brought in all these

new members, they're

0:30:170:30:19

full of enthusiasm,

0:30:190:30:20

why shouldn't we have our people

moving in to take over the party,

0:30:200:30:30

we are the future of the party.

0:30:310:30:45

Is there bullying

going on in Brighton?

0:30:450:30:47

I think there has been.

0:30:470:30:48

And I think that has

predominantly been from people

0:30:480:30:50

outside the Labour Party

and it is not acceptable.

0:30:500:30:52

Wouldn't be accurate to say that

Momentum members and

0:30:520:30:54

some of the new Labour Party members

are mobilising against the existing

0:30:540:30:57

councillors?

0:30:570:30:58

I think there has been some chatter

about that and a lot of

0:30:580:31:01

that has been from those who are not

in the party at the present time.

0:31:010:31:05

Once people are not members

of the Labour Party,

0:31:050:31:07

they can't share our values

and therefore they should be

0:31:070:31:10

excluded from Momentum.

0:31:100:31:11

And that would be a way

to unify the party in

0:31:110:31:21

Brighton and Hove and

around the country.

0:31:210:31:23

As a former minister in the Blair

government you might expect of

0:31:230:31:32

a captain to take that view.

0:31:320:31:35

I spoke to a number of Labour Party

0:31:350:31:37

members who said they had

experienced intimidation and that

0:31:370:31:39

Momentum was authoritarian

and brutal to existing councillors.

0:31:390:31:41

None would agree

to appear on camera.

0:31:410:31:43

While I was in Brighton a Momentum

activist posted this video and

0:31:430:31:46

social media.

0:31:460:31:47

The faces of three Labour

councillors including the

0:31:470:31:49

council leader had

been superimposed.

0:31:490:31:50

Something I put to a local

Momentum organiser Greg

0:31:500:31:52

Hadfield, who is currently suspended

from the Labour Party.

0:31:520:31:55

I haven't seen it so I'm not

going to comment on it.

0:31:550:31:57

And you think that is?

0:31:570:31:59

I'm happy to get

back to you and have

0:31:590:32:01

considered view but

I haven't seen it.

0:32:010:32:02

I have spoken to a number of people

across the party in Brighton

0:32:020:32:06

and Hove, some of them tell me that

Momentum are using bullying tactics,

0:32:060:32:09

that the party is very divided

and they feel not able to speak up

0:32:090:32:13

and air their views.

0:32:130:32:15

They are saying that on the record?

0:32:150:32:18

Because I think that's

shocking smears.

0:32:180:32:21

What we have seen in

Brighton and Hove in the

0:32:210:32:24

last 18 months is a massive upsurge

in democratic, decent democratic

0:32:240:32:26

engagement with party members.

0:32:260:32:31

Anyone who says that,

first of all they are lying,

0:32:310:32:36

but also they don't have the best

interests of the party.

0:32:360:32:39

Would you like to get

rid of the current

0:32:390:32:42

cohort of councillors

in Brighton and Hove,

0:32:420:32:43

the Labour councillors.

0:32:430:32:45

I would love it for

members to elect the best

0:32:450:32:48

representatives of this

Labour Party that they can.

0:32:480:32:51

If that is bullying,

if that is not democratic, if that

0:32:510:32:57

is deselecting, then people

saying that have a very

0:32:570:32:59

strange view of democracy.

0:32:590:33:02

Overnight Labour suspended

the member who posted the video.

0:33:020:33:04

He denied was anti-Semitic

and issued an apology.

0:33:040:33:08

Away from Brighton

the deselection of Labour

0:33:080:33:12

councillors in Haringey

and in other London boroughs has

0:33:120:33:14

made the national press.

0:33:140:33:17

There have been deselection

is in other places as

0:33:170:33:19

well including Hastings

and by just aware the

0:33:190:33:22

former mayor is among

the casualties.

0:33:220:33:25

I think we need a cultural

message from the top.

0:33:250:33:27

Momentum clearly have a place

in the Labour movement now

0:33:270:33:29

although they are not affiliated

with the party

0:33:290:33:32

formally they have brought energy

and ideas to the party.

0:33:320:33:34

That is no bad thing.

0:33:340:33:35

But Jeremy Corbyn is not just

the party leader but the

0:33:350:33:38

figurehead of momentum,

he has to send a message

0:33:380:33:41

to all his troops,

if you like around the country,

0:33:410:33:43

saying perhaps, not in my name.

0:33:430:33:45

Having spoken to people

from across the

0:33:450:33:47

Labour Party in Brighton,

there are those that

0:33:470:33:53

will tell you that the party is more

united than ever before

0:33:530:33:56

and they are incredibly positive

about the future.

0:33:560:33:58

But on the other

side even people who

0:33:580:34:00

describe themselves as being

on the left say they feel despondent

0:34:000:34:02

and that the atmosphere can only be

described as toxic.

0:34:020:34:09

Well we asked Momentum if someone

could come on to discuss the issues

0:34:090:34:12

raised in that film but no

one was available.

0:34:120:34:19

Never mind, we have our panel of

experts. Helen, is it perfectly

0:34:190:34:25

legitimate for momentum to get their

own candidate selected. They are in

0:34:250:34:30

the ascendancy now, so why shouldn't

they have more candidates?

They have

0:34:300:34:36

a legitimate position and they are

entitled to push it forward. But it

0:34:360:34:43

is controlled by two Private limited

companies and the data is in the

0:34:430:34:46

hands of one man. They talk about

progress and the Fabians, it is

0:34:460:34:54

around Jeremy Corbyn as a person.

The third thing, they are very

0:34:540:34:59

successful in terms of making viral

videos and they are an effective,

0:34:590:35:03

organising force and that is why

people are so worried.

Momentum do

0:35:030:35:08

show the way politics is going, they

are fantastic at mobilising people,

0:35:080:35:12

reaching their supporters and doing

it in different ways, are centrists

0:35:120:35:17

in the Labour Party frightened by

their success?

Definitely and that

0:35:170:35:21

is why they haven't been able to put

up a better fight. To claim this is

0:35:210:35:25

an undemocratic, because votes have

been taken before Momentum takes

0:35:250:35:32

control like the Brighton & Hove

Albion are to, is absurd. It isn't

0:35:320:35:36

democratic because a small neo-Nazis

calls will be holding the Labour

0:35:360:35:43

Party to ransom. It doesn't matter

whether they can sit out at these

0:35:430:35:49

meetings until 2am until moderates

have to go home. It doesn't make it

0:35:490:35:56

a takeover, it is definitely not

democratic as it would be if Britain

0:35:560:36:05

First took over the Labour Party.

Is

that fair?

The problem is calling it

0:36:050:36:12

tiny. It isn't tiny any more. The

last lot of people campaigning on

0:36:120:36:19

the streets for Labour were involved

in Momentum. If you look at their

0:36:190:36:22

social media, 60% of voters saw a

Momentum video on their Facebook

0:36:220:36:29

feeds during the general election

and Momentum spent £2000 on it.

0:36:290:36:35

Everything else spread virally.

There is a popularity and yes they

0:36:350:36:40

are a bunch of old leftie Marxists,

but on the other side there is

0:36:400:36:44

people cheering the Jeremy Corbyn,

they have come together and it is a

0:36:440:36:51

powerful force and no wonder the

Blairites and motorists are worried.

0:36:510:36:58

It is a form of bullying?

You have

these optimistic people who want to

0:36:580:37:04

change the world, tied up with a

group of people who are effective

0:37:040:37:09

organisers and behave in a

substandard way a lot of the time.

0:37:090:37:16

To compare them with Britain First

is over the top. To compare it with

0:37:160:37:21

an organisation whose explicit

purpose is to

0:37:210:37:25

Hello and welcome

to Sunday Politics.

0:37:340:37:37

So as the debate goes on over

who's come out on top

0:37:370:37:40

after the government's last-minute

deal with the EU,

0:37:400:37:42

we'll hear from the DUP

0:37:420:37:43

and Sinn Fein on what it means

for Northern Ireland,

0:37:430:37:45

and its place in the UK and Europe.

0:37:450:37:47

We'll also hear from the UUP,

SDLP and Alliance and throughout

0:37:470:37:51

this extended programme,

we'll have analysis from Professors

0:37:510:37:54

Pete Shirlow and Cathal McCall.

0:37:540:37:57

So, work is now under way

to establish what precisely our

0:38:020:38:05

trading and political relationships

will look like - both

0:38:050:38:08

north-south and east-west -

in future, and where Stormont should

0:38:080:38:11

fit in to it all.

0:38:110:38:13

And no-one expects it to be plan

sailing from here on,

0:38:130:38:15

despite Friday's dramatic deal.

0:38:150:38:17

Joining me now are the DUP's Sammy

Wilson and Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd.

0:38:170:38:21

SAMMY -In the run-up to Friday's

deal a DUP source was quoted

0:38:210:38:26

In the run-up to the deal, a DUP

source was quoted as saying, this is

0:38:340:38:40

about who brings first and we have

cut at out our eyelids. A

0:38:400:38:45

climb-down? Not a climb-down, we set

out at the beginning of the week to

0:38:450:38:53

say our objectives. We'll face with

a green document which the prime

0:38:530:38:56

ministers shared with us. We told

her forcefully that we could not

0:38:560:39:01

support if she moved forward with

that document. Over the week,

0:39:010:39:06

through protracted negotiations with

the government, we succeeded in

0:39:060:39:10

getting a document which now first

makes it clear that the United

0:39:100:39:16

Kingdom is leaving the single market

and the customs union and Northern

0:39:160:39:20

Ireland will be included in that.

Secondly, that there will be no

0:39:200:39:24

barriers put on trade between

Northern Ireland and the rest of the

0:39:240:39:33

UK now or in the future. Thirdly,

the government will support the free

0:39:330:39:40

and unfettered access for Northern

Ireland businesses to the GB market,

0:39:400:39:44

which is the appalled market for us.

And in future negotiations where

0:39:440:39:52

there are specific interests will

Northern Ireland, there will be deep

0:39:520:39:55

involvement by Northern Ireland and

the DUP and Northern Ireland

0:39:550:39:59

politicians.

But the reality was

there were no -- two special

0:39:590:40:11

demands, that there should be no

special status and to achieve demand

0:40:110:40:20

two, number one has been sacrificed.

No, for Northern Ireland, there will

0:40:200:40:25

be no regulations put in place that

will treat Northern Ireland

0:40:250:40:29

differently from the rest of the UK.

If there is to be any regulatory

0:40:290:40:33

alignment because a free-trade deal

is not struck, the regulations will

0:40:330:40:40

affect the whole of the United

Kingdom, not just Northern Ireland.

0:40:400:40:44

So the UK

0:40:440:40:51

stay in the single market customs

union, it has just been forced to

0:40:510:40:53

act as if it has. How better as Mac

but even that term regulatory

0:40:530:41:01

alignment is elastic.

As the

secretary of state said in the House

0:41:010:41:04

of Commons this week, regulatory

alignment, if it is required, and it

0:41:040:41:10

is only in that narrow area of

North-South cooperation...

Six major

0:41:100:41:16

areas, 142 subsections.

If you look

at the analysis done, over half of

0:41:160:41:23

those areas do not require

regulations which mirror the

0:41:230:41:27

regulations in the rest of the EU.

So that bit was over eggs.

You're

0:41:270:41:35

not talking about some Northern

Ireland economy...

We are not.

You

0:41:350:41:43

pull the plug on Monday, why not on

Thursday night?

Because the

0:41:430:41:48

negotiations you have a main goal.

Our main goal was that a document

0:41:480:41:53

which gave little or no recognition

to Northern Ireland's position in

0:41:530:41:57

the UK and staying in line with the

rest of the UK when we left the EU,

0:41:570:42:03

that was changed. We succeeded in

getting that.

You avoided a hard

0:42:030:42:08

border so the whole of the UK to --

have to align to allow Northern

0:42:080:42:15

Ireland its special status. The

holiday UK is now affected, so how

0:42:150:42:18

is that a better deal?

Let's look at

that particular paragraph. The first

0:42:180:42:24

option is that we get a free-trade

arrangement with the rest of the EU.

0:42:240:42:30

That is what the government will be

aiming for and what we will be

0:42:300:42:33

aiming for. And if it get a proper

free-trade arrangement, there is no

0:42:330:42:39

need to worry about regulations

being aligned. The second one is

0:42:390:42:42

that if that is not possible, there

will be special arrangements put in

0:42:420:42:47

place as the government put in its

August paper to the EU, to ensure

0:42:470:42:53

that there is the trade -- free

trade across but the bottom line is,

0:42:530:43:01

if you can't improve on this... And

the last backstop is that if a

0:43:010:43:11

free-trade arrangement is not agreed

or is the special arrangements

0:43:110:43:14

cannot be put in place, then we will

look at what alignment on a UK wide

0:43:140:43:21

basis is required. And that's

alignment, the Secretary of State

0:43:210:43:25

made it clear in the House of

Commons, could be recognition of

0:43:250:43:29

standards, could be equivalence...

It is not special status for

0:43:290:43:35

Northern Ireland.

Is it special

status?

Will already have special

0:43:350:43:46

status because we are treated

differently. So it is what happens

0:43:460:43:50

next. The DUP have found out that

they are a big fish in the small

0:43:500:43:56

pond. They don't want to be small

fish in a large pond with sharks.

0:43:560:44:02

Because this is moving into trade

talks. The trade talks will

0:44:020:44:08

concentrate, unfortunately, because

this is a difficulty of the EU, the

0:44:080:44:11

trade talks will concentrate on the

needs of big business rather than

0:44:110:44:15

people. That is why the DUP will

find out that the interest of the

0:44:150:44:20

banks in England, of multinationals

in England, will overwrite any

0:44:200:44:24

interest or influence they think

they have with Theresa May. One of

0:44:240:44:28

the reasons why Theresa May stepped

on the plane in the early hours of

0:44:280:44:32

Friday morning and started

negotiating with the DUP at that

0:44:320:44:36

stage is that she has now realised

that this has moved on to a bigger

0:44:360:44:40

agenda.

At least we are in the pond,

you are not in the pond! And it is

0:44:400:44:48

significant that on Monday, the

prime ministers shared with us the

0:44:480:44:55

document, certainly, when we showed

we were interested, she stopped the

0:44:550:45:04

meetings in Brussels. Leo Varadkar

did not do this with you. You are

0:45:040:45:07

not in the pond!

Leo Varadkar and

Simon Coveney have been very busy

0:45:070:45:14

and some people say that they played

their difficult and very well.

We

0:45:140:45:20

have given a cautious welcome to the

document. The principles of

0:45:200:45:28

protecting northern Ireland remain

on the principle of no Brexit border

0:45:280:45:31

and protecting people's rights

remains. It will await the formal

0:45:310:45:37

implementation of an agreement to

assure that those principles become

0:45:370:45:39

legally binding requirements.

Everybody except that's what we have

0:45:390:45:45

had from Friday is a communique from

the UK Government to the EU. The

0:45:450:45:52

principles are good.

Do you regard

this as special status for Northern

0:45:520:45:56

Ireland? That is a yes or a no.

It

is a difficult question to answer

0:45:560:46:03

because until we see the enforcement

of the deal of the legislation and

0:46:030:46:07

guidance and all those things which

enforce a deal, it is difficult.

It

0:46:070:46:13

is difficult for you because you

don't want to say that, because the

0:46:130:46:20

SDLP said you didn't want special

status and you opposed it and now

0:46:200:46:26

that means you are taking an SDLP

policy. You have outmanoeuvred

0:46:260:46:29

yourself.

No, this is where you need

to know the background.

You argued

0:46:290:46:36

against it.

Let me give you the

background. At that time, the Irish

0:46:360:46:42

government were lobbying Sinn Fein

to back down on our position which

0:46:420:46:45

was much beyond and in advance of

the SDLP.

So what you want? I have a

0:46:450:46:53

quote here and I can read it if you

want to. In October 2016, you are

0:46:530:47:10

saying,

0:47:110:47:11

I suspect that, in there somewhere,

the Irish Government and the SDLP

0:47:110:47:15

are moving away from the position

that "Remain" must mean "Remain".

0:47:150:47:21

you're given this cautious welcome.

We need to see how this is going to

0:47:210:47:26

be implemented.

You are trying to

remedy Fox and hunt with the hound.

0:47:260:47:32

There is no other way of achieving

regulatory alignment with the

0:47:320:47:38

customs union unless you are in the

single market.

But the document

0:47:380:47:43

makes it clear that the UK will be

leaving the customs union and the

0:47:430:47:47

single market and that Northern

Ireland will be going with the UK

0:47:470:47:51

when that happens. So there is no

question of the special status which

0:47:510:47:57

are asking for. That is one of the

things that we were very keen to get

0:47:570:48:02

included in the document and have

succeeded in.

You base your policy

0:48:020:48:11

on opposition to what Sinn Fein

wanted.

We base our policy on what

0:48:110:48:15

we fought for in the referendum,

namely that the United Kingdom

0:48:150:48:19

should leave the EU and leaving the

EU necessarily meant to...

That is

0:48:190:48:25

an interesting point. Let me ask

you, in this deal that you did not

0:48:250:48:30

oppose and did not pull the plug on,

the protection afforded to Northern

0:48:300:48:35

Ireland...

Let's make it clear, we

chose...

You didn't choose anything.

0:48:350:48:43

We chose not to pull the plug

because we thought that the main

0:48:430:48:46

objection off-macro so why did you

pull the plug on Monday, but not

0:48:460:48:50

Friday? Does anybody come out of

negotiations getting everything that

0:48:500:48:59

they want? The main thing we wanted

to secure... And we would have liked

0:48:590:49:06

to see more, but the main thing we

aimed to secure was that Northern

0:49:060:49:10

Ireland would not be treated

differently than the rest of the

0:49:100:49:13

United Kingdom. And that is peppered

throughout this agreement so we

0:49:130:49:16

achieved that.

But the part of the

deal with the Tories is that you

0:49:160:49:24

would give support under your

confidence and supplied motion on

0:49:240:49:27

Brexit deals?

And to date, we have

honoured that.

Today, but in future?

0:49:270:49:35

The negotiations will go on...

So it

is under question now? You won't

0:49:350:49:41

honour the deal?

Any confidence and

supply arrangement is under the

0:49:410:49:50

assumption that people will...

So

you would walk away from 1 million

0:49:500:49:54

-- £1 billion?

Some of it has been

delivered. A lot of that money is

0:49:540:50:03

dependent on...

Theresa May has said

you had your day in the sun on

0:50:030:50:09

Monday, but you're not going to get

that again.

Please give me the

0:50:090:50:16

option to answer. The money is

dependent on their being plans for

0:50:160:50:21

broadband roll-out. There are no

plans for that at present. It is

0:50:210:50:25

dependent on the plans for reform of

the health service. Those plans are

0:50:250:50:30

not in place at present. It depends

on infrastructure projects which are

0:50:300:50:36

not -- which do not all have

planning permission. You should at

0:50:360:50:41

least listen to the answer. You

should at least listen to the

0:50:410:50:44

answer.

A final question to you and

then to John. The protection

0:50:440:50:51

afforded to Northern Ireland to

ensure it is not isolated from the

0:50:510:50:54

UK means that the UK as a whole as

to stay close to the EU integer. You

0:50:540:51:00

wanted the former, not the latter.

What kind of Brexit deal is that?

0:51:000:51:05

That is not the case. The document

makes it clear that regulatory

0:51:050:51:10

alignment and whatever necessary

regulatory alignment there is on

0:51:100:51:13

those narrow areas of North-South

co-operation will be done on a UK

0:51:130:51:18

wide basis but in the context of the

UK's leaving the single market and

0:51:180:51:22

customs union.

Is that how you see

it, John?

They told us they would

0:51:220:51:31

not pay the divorce bill, they are

paying it. They told us they would

0:51:310:51:35

not ensure the rights of a European

citizens, they have. They tell as

0:51:350:51:40

they are leaving the customs union

and single market, that is yet to be

0:51:400:51:44

decided. In the trade talks, we will

see what comes out of the alt of

0:51:440:51:50

that. The best Euro involves being

in the customs union and single

0:51:500:51:53

market.

Thank you for that.

0:51:530:51:58

Thanks to both.

0:51:580:51:59

Listening to that,

Professor Pete Shirlow

0:51:590:52:01

of the University of Liverpool

and Professor Cathal McCall

0:52:010:52:03

from Queen's University.

0:52:030:52:06

What do you make of the deal and

what we have heard from the main

0:52:060:52:09

parties so far today? Certainly the

deal would suggest that we are

0:52:090:52:16

heading in the UK for a suspect it

rather than a hard Brexit.

Mrs Grove

0:52:160:52:24

Johnson and Fox would prefer the

latter. Although there seems to be

0:52:240:52:27

some form of attack on this document

from certainly gof and the Telegraph

0:52:270:52:34

article.

A bit fightback and

certainly. Hardline rector tears

0:52:340:52:39

don't see that that way. --

brigadiers. -- brexiteers.

We happen

0:52:390:52:52

to me about narrow regulatory

alignment between north and south

0:52:520:52:59

cooperation. It suggests to me that

you would need border inspection to

0:52:590:53:04

decipher what is not aligned and not

aligned in terms of goods coming

0:53:040:53:07

across the border. There is also the

question of the whole island economy

0:53:070:53:14

that has developed since 1998, the

agricultural foods sector here is

0:53:140:53:20

massively integrated by in large

throughout the island. In terms of

0:53:200:53:24

milk production for example. The

fine detail of that will emerge as

0:53:240:53:30

we go through these trade

negotiations.

Can I bring Pete in.

0:53:300:53:35

What is your initial thoughts on

where we might be, at this stage in

0:53:350:53:41

the process?

I think John has picked

it up exactly. What has happened it

0:53:410:53:44

was what was always going to happen

all, a re-trade arrangement. A soft

0:53:440:53:50

trade arrangement. Global capital of

Europe, in London, you can't have

0:53:500:53:56

that outside of the economy of

Europe. The captains of industry and

0:53:560:54:07

of the financial systems obviously

want this as soft as possible and

0:54:070:54:13

with the UK gone you don't have the

same time of ferocious and is on

0:54:130:54:19

this debate. -- with Ukip gone there

was no process this. At the end of

0:54:190:54:24

the day those who are in charge know

that you need to have a soft landing

0:54:240:54:28

but one thing important that Sammy

said is that if you look at

0:54:280:54:34

devolution, border for example isn't

a devolved issue, this is a UK

0:54:340:54:41

Ireland border. It happens to be

Northern Ireland and the Republic

0:54:410:54:45

but it is an international border.

It's not a devolved matter, it is a

0:54:450:54:49

matter that relates to two Southern

countries and I think it's not a

0:54:490:54:55

special status argument it is that

that border can be accommodated as

0:54:550:55:00

is currently will be done

differently.

Do you except we are

0:55:000:55:05

now heading to a soft Brexit, and

are relaxed about these such?

I hate

0:55:050:55:11

these terms soft and hard Brexit.

You either leave or you don't. I am

0:55:110:55:17

still convinced the government

because of the commitments it has

0:55:170:55:21

made and indeed because of the

commitments to other parties made to

0:55:210:55:25

their supporters, that we will not

be in the custody union and the

0:55:250:55:28

single market, you can call out

whatever you want...

You still have

0:55:280:55:35

to act in the way that you are.

When

you are trading with any country you

0:55:350:55:39

have you give acknowledgements to

some of the regulations which exist

0:55:390:55:42

in those countries. When we sell

aircraft parts to the United States

0:55:420:55:49

we have 2p cognisant of the

regulations in the States and

0:55:490:55:53

ignoring those we couldn't sell.

There is was going to be an element

0:55:530:55:58

of that in any trade.

Sammy says he

is relaxed about the concept of this

0:55:580:56:04

soft and hard Brexit. You see this

is different and except more of a

0:56:040:56:08

soft Brexit.

We are going towards

what is known as a soft Brexit but

0:56:080:56:13

there was lots of negotiation to be

done over the next number of months

0:56:130:56:16

and perhaps years. This is not a

done deal and tell as at the end of

0:56:160:56:21

this like the end of this what's the

legal binding document says with a

0:56:210:56:28

direction of tribal moving forward.

-- travel.

0:56:280:56:33

Thanks for now.

0:56:330:56:34

We'll be hearing from the SDLP,

0:56:340:56:35

Alliance and Ulster Unionists

in just a moment -

0:56:350:56:38

but first, a look back at the week

gone past in slightly

0:56:380:56:40

more than 60 seconds.

0:56:400:56:50

We have been very clear, Northern

Ireland must leave the European

0:56:560:57:03

Union on the same terms as the rest

of the United Kingdom. This is a

0:57:030:57:10

start of the very last stage.

We

will reconvene before the end of the

0:57:100:57:15

week and I am also confident that we

will conclude this positively.

We

0:57:150:57:19

are surprised and disappointed they

haven't been able to follow through

0:57:190:57:22

today and on that agreement but

there is still time.

We have said

0:57:220:57:26

from the beginning that the pact

between the DUP and the Tories in

0:57:260:57:29

landing would end in tears and so it

has.

When we looked at the wording

0:57:290:57:35

and have seen the import of all that

we knew we couldn't sign up to

0:57:350:57:40

anything that was in that text that

would allow a border to develop in

0:57:400:57:43

the Irish Sea.

Can you guarantee the

government won't accept any deal

0:57:430:57:50

ensuring the north doesn't remain in

the customs union and the single

0:57:500:57:54

market?

Someone forgot to share the

details with the DUP. Surely there

0:57:540:58:00

are 1.5 billion reasons why the run

is there really shouldn't have

0:58:000:58:06

forgotten to share with the DUP?

We

will ensure there is no hard border

0:58:060:58:12

between the north and the south of

Ireland. We will do that while we

0:58:120:58:17

respect the constitutional integrity

of the United Kingdom.

Do you feel

0:58:170:58:21

you are making any progress

whatsoever?

I'm not making any

0:58:210:58:24

comment at this stage. Thank you

very much.

0:58:240:58:27

There will be no hard border and we

will uphold the Belfast agreement.

I

0:58:330:58:38

am satisfied that sufficient

progress has now been made on the

0:58:380:58:41

Irish issues. The parameters have

been set and they are good.

We have

0:58:410:58:48

the very clear confirmation that the

entirety of the United Kingdom is

0:58:480:58:52

leaving the European Union leaving

the single market and the customs

0:58:520:58:54

union.

0:58:540:58:58

Joining me now are Claire Hanna

of the SDLP, the Ulster Unionist

0:58:580:59:01

MEP Jim Nicholson,

and the Alliance Party's deputy

0:59:010:59:02

leader, Stephen Farry.

0:59:020:59:10

Claire, first of all, a good deal so

far or... Not so much? I think we

0:59:100:59:17

are very glad of a breakthrough for

a start because tensions were high

0:59:170:59:21

and that is never a good thing for

anybody and I think in terms of what

0:59:210:59:25

has been agreed we think it is yes

broadly positive. You concerned it

0:59:250:59:30

could slip away? Of course it

occurred. Hardline Brexit is --

0:59:300:59:35

brexiteers are already making their

pitch. In terms of the future deal

0:59:350:59:40

we should be watched, if the prime

ministers says the deal is not

0:59:400:59:45

binding... I think it is positive

that in the bottom line if the

0:59:450:59:49

magical solution that the brexiteers

don't actually materialise,

0:59:490:59:57

essentially single market actors

seem to be back on the table and I

0:59:570:59:59

believe that over time there are

many people who will grab that with

0:59:591:00:02

open arms. We are glad that there is

a move on through this particular

1:00:021:00:08

gate that the potential for a

catastrophic no deal is essentially

1:00:081:00:13

off the table but there is a long

way to run and it is important to

1:00:131:00:17

say that Northern Ireland should not

sit here like babies as it goes on

1:00:171:00:20

over our head and we have agency and

this and we should do whatever we

1:00:201:00:23

can.

Jim Nicholson you have a voice

in Brussels and can influence the

1:00:231:00:31

discussions. Bats in a way that

others can't because you are an MEP.

1:00:311:00:36

Is it so far so good, eight good

start, something to be built on?

1:00:361:00:42

There is something to be built on. I

have always maintained that you

1:00:421:00:47

couldn't have solved the problem of

the border which becomes a border

1:00:471:00:50

when the UK leaves Europe, a border

between the European Union and the

1:00:501:00:55

United Kingdom, that is what for me

a lots of people didn't understand

1:00:551:00:59

and I think for me now this could

have been better but there is no

1:00:591:01:05

point dwelling upon that because we

want to go to the next phase and you

1:01:051:01:11

bet your bottom dollar as we sit

here today in Brussels they are

1:01:111:01:13

drawing up who is going to be in

charge of the next agenda, next ago

1:01:131:01:18

sitting position and Hugh will be

looking at the last one while Mr

1:01:181:01:24

Davies said on every occasion he

lost the argument to Michel Barnier,

1:01:241:01:31

and the last negotiations were

conducted on a total EU agenda. If

1:01:311:01:34

the UK doesn't get some reality back

into the situation on the next

1:01:341:01:41

negotiations if they continue to

allow looking at the situation Boris

1:01:411:01:45

Johnson saying as far as Europe was

concerned they could go whistle for

1:01:451:01:50

their money, it is 40 billion,

that's a big whistle.

An expensive

1:01:501:01:53

one. Briefly on this, some people

are now making the case that there

1:01:531:02:00

is a need perhaps in future for

Northern Ireland MEPs do continue to

1:02:001:02:03

have a voice in Brussels because if

we are looking at alignment and

1:02:031:02:06

there are changes in future who

would speak up for Northern Ireland

1:02:061:02:11

in that situation? The only person

could do it with out the UK being

1:02:111:02:15

there would be Leo Varadkar or the

Taoiseach, would you still like to

1:02:151:02:18

be in Brussels making that case?

That's an interesting point. It

1:02:181:02:26

relates to some of these things

indeed because for me as we go

1:02:261:02:29

forward we had to see what full

alignment means, how it will be

1:02:291:02:34

implemented, how it would be

implemented and I understand this

1:02:341:02:37

morning there have been calls of

that into question and yes you are

1:02:371:02:42

right, that once the UK leaves as

far as we would be concerned there

1:02:421:02:46

would be nobody at the Council for

us.

That is a yes? Go on, spit it

1:02:461:02:51

out, Jim.

I am not going to accept

that Dublin will be sitting at the

1:02:511:03:00

table representing on this issue.

Is

there a case for the keeping of the

1:03:001:03:07

MEPs of Northern Ireland?

There was

a case for a lot of things an the

1:03:071:03:10

road. We are only at the starting

line as far as these negotiations

1:03:101:03:16

are concerned. This has taken 18

months and if we don't go along the

1:03:161:03:19

next one the next one will take a

long time, I don't think it is a

1:03:191:03:23

given us for as Europe is concerned

talking to Europeans, not my own

1:03:231:03:26

personal view but as far as

Europeans concerned they won't let

1:03:261:03:29

us have our cake and eat it.

Stephen

Farry I think the deal on Friday has

1:03:291:03:36

been given a welcome by your party.

How consonant are you that the way

1:03:361:03:40

things turn as they often do in high

politics that the whole thing could

1:03:401:03:44

be unfixable for it is dry?

I think

there is a lack of realism as Italy

1:03:441:03:51

with the DUP and the UK Government

as to what they are signed up in

1:03:511:03:54

practice. Sammy Wilson was pretty

relaxed this morning. But if they

1:03:541:03:59

are relaxed I am prepared to be a

lot more generous, and protecting

1:03:591:04:04

the Northern Ireland economy that is

a good thing. What has been agreed

1:04:041:04:07

here it is first of all the

protection of the Good Friday

1:04:071:04:10

Agreement and secondly avoidance of

a hard border, those are innocent of

1:04:101:04:14

the two fixed points in this

discussion.

Is it possible to

1:04:141:04:17

achieve both.

It is possible but

that is the point I'm trying to

1:04:171:04:20

stress. It is useful to talk this in

terms of the three red lines of the

1:04:201:04:25

UK Government. The mini customs

union and single market, ruling out

1:04:251:04:29

special measures for Northern

Ireland, and they want avoiding a

1:04:291:04:33

hard border. Only two of those can

be true at anyone time. They have

1:04:331:04:36

now said firmly there will be no

border sites unless they give on

1:04:361:04:41

either one of those issues, the EU

don't want regulatory alignment and

1:04:411:04:44

they have to recognise this will be

fairly broad. Unless you have

1:04:441:04:48

something that is very comprehensive

then you will see a border returning

1:04:481:04:51

in some shape or form. And that

means potentially in essence full

1:04:511:04:57

participation in the single market

which we are calling for. This is a

1:04:571:05:02

not a case of voluntary alignment of

the UK as a whole, trying to meet

1:05:021:05:07

the single market and it is a

two-way process so there has to be

1:05:071:05:11

recognition. Investors coming into

Northern Ireland in future need to

1:05:111:05:14

know what type of legal governments

then the regime will be invested in.

1:05:141:05:21

Claire Hanna when you look at some

of the things in the papers over the

1:05:211:05:25

weekend lots of people have been

saying, people involved in the

1:05:251:05:29

negotiations and commenting upon

them with a lot of experience of the

1:05:291:05:32

process up to now have been saying

this deal is a political deal as you

1:05:321:05:36

have said yourself rather than a

legal deal. But it tries to be all

1:05:361:05:40

things to all men and women. And it

is not actually possible at the end

1:05:401:05:45

of the day. We aren't sure how it

will be shaped and summary will be

1:05:451:05:50

disappointed.

Yes if you look at the

history of the last few months I

1:05:501:05:52

think it is clear who will end up

disappointed because as was

1:05:521:05:55

articulated before, the London

government had a number of red

1:05:551:05:59

lines, all of which they have had to

accept circles can't be squared.

1:05:591:06:06

Part of the problem for London is

that they don't have an opening

1:06:061:06:10

position, if the trade talks are

ready to talk in the New Year, they

1:06:101:06:15

have never worked out what will be

want to add the other side of them,

1:06:151:06:22

they have only gone so far as sound

bites. This negotiation provides

1:06:221:06:29

bottom lines, and some fundamentals

that we don't think can be breached

1:06:291:06:32

and yes you are right, the flesh has

to be put on these bones that have

1:06:321:06:37

come out this week but I still think

they won't have been able to sell

1:06:371:06:40

that anyway. I think single market

would be best, we don't want any

1:06:401:06:45

border north-south we don't want any

border East-West either. Well it is

1:06:451:06:48

a soft or hard Brexit lots of people

will wonder why you pay the divorce

1:06:481:06:52

bill and cohabit will stop why would

you go to this process and end up

1:06:521:06:57

with something that is Brexit light,

all of the pain that will be

1:06:571:07:02

involved with the coming years with

the £40 billion that Claire has

1:07:021:07:05

referred to, something where you are

following the regulations in the

1:07:051:07:09

single market and the customs union

anyway?

1:07:091:07:17

That's a question would have to go

back... No point trying to refight

1:07:171:07:21

the recommend am. With the benefit

of hindsight, if we look at it now,

1:07:211:07:29

both sides in the referendum did not

do themselves an awful lot of

1:07:291:07:35

justice with the money coming back

from the health service etc. But we

1:07:351:07:43

are where we are today. The people

of the UK spoke and made it very

1:07:431:07:48

clear. I made my position clear at

the time and as Sammy Wilson said

1:07:481:07:54

earlier on, in life you don't always

get everything you want. We are in a

1:07:541:08:00

situation where we are going to have

to go forward and what will be the

1:08:001:08:04

end result, remains to be seen.

Is

it worth going to refight that

1:08:041:08:09

battle again and was the customs

union -- was worth leaving in the

1:08:091:08:16

first place?

My hunch on this is

that we will end up with a little

1:08:161:08:24

Brexit to satisfy the first

referendum and in that is important

1:08:241:08:28

to separate the politics from the

economic. Northern Ireland will be

1:08:281:08:34

exiting in a political and

constitutional way. But the key

1:08:341:08:39

thing is to separate the economics

in Northern Ireland. It has to

1:08:391:08:43

recognise east-west and north-south

access. We need to have both in

1:08:431:08:47

unison to survive and to really

succeed as a society. Alone -- a lot

1:08:471:08:55

of the talk has been about defending

things. We have to recognise that

1:08:551:09:00

our economy is still underperforming

with infrastructure we --

1:09:001:09:07

weaknesses. We need spending to help

us develop things. Turning our backs

1:09:071:09:12

on the world will not help.

I want

to go back to the document which has

1:09:121:09:16

been referred to, there are

contradictions in it. Is it possible

1:09:161:09:22

for everything contained in it to be

delivered? Or will one phrase, one

1:09:221:09:30

element of its knockout another?

There is a lack of clarity in the

1:09:301:09:36

document. It is purposely vague...

Full of constructive ambiguity.

We

1:09:361:09:43

know all about this with the Good

Friday Agreement and have the types

1:09:431:09:46

of agreements work. Or at least

survive opposition.

Is that

1:09:461:09:53

necessarily a bad thing?

No, but as

we have seen with the previous

1:09:531:09:59

speakers, there is already a

difference of opinion certainly on

1:09:591:10:02

the EU and British side with regard

to what this term, full alignment,

1:10:021:10:08

means. Does it mean very limited

areas of? Six areas, orders are

1:10:081:10:15

applied to 146 areas of plus the all

Ireland economy that has developed

1:10:151:10:21

since the 1998 agreement? All that

will be fleshed out. This document

1:10:211:10:26

is almost aspirational. The

Taoiseach use the Tama bullet-proof.

1:10:261:10:36

I have heard future proof mentioned,

and I don't agree because the

1:10:361:10:39

opening caveat is that nothing is

agreed until everything is agreed.

1:10:391:10:44

And significantly and not

surprisingly, we have heard

1:10:441:10:48

Unionists saying that that is the

key phrase. All of this is

1:10:481:10:51

hypothetical but at the end of the

day it has to be agreed for it to

1:10:511:10:54

move forward.

Of course it has too,

for unionism because Unionism has to

1:10:541:11:01

have the best representation for

Northern Ireland in the UK. But

1:11:011:11:06

Brexit is going to be largely

apolitical process. That is the

1:11:061:11:11

divorce. The trade issue will often

be the soft side of things. The soft

1:11:111:11:19

side of Brexit will be how we put

together the trade arrangement. This

1:11:191:11:23

has been a good week for Theresa May

and for the DUP in the sense that

1:11:231:11:28

they have had things that were

already there but they have acted be

1:11:281:11:33

able to say that to their

supporters. And a good week for Leo

1:11:331:11:37

Varadkar. Fine Gael have risen to

40% in the polls. Interesting that

1:11:371:11:44

the politics around this is creating

winners and losers and very clearly,

1:11:441:11:48

when we heard Jim Allister on Friday

night and the Nigel Farage, this

1:11:481:11:56

Brexit is not what those who voted

for it are naturally going to get.

1:11:561:12:01

It will not be that. A quick word on

the return to Stormont. Does it put

1:12:011:12:10

pressure on the parties in Stormont

to shape the debate?

Most of us

1:12:101:12:15

would say this is above our pay

grade but it does put pressure on

1:12:151:12:18

them. Brexit is not about trade

alone, it is about interdependence,

1:12:181:12:24

relationships, taking those

questions as to whether you look

1:12:241:12:27

East - West and North- South.

Jim,

on that, doesn't put pressure on

1:12:271:12:36

Stormont coming back sooner rather

than later?

Beyond doubt. If you

1:12:361:12:41

have to have full alignment, you

need a parliament to enact it. No

1:12:411:12:47

matter what it is.

Whenever we

publish our own paper -- when we

1:12:471:12:54

published our own paper we said that

this agreement was devolution max.

1:12:541:13:01

Ensuring we work to find that we can

do things differently when needed to

1:13:011:13:04

get the best both worlds.

That is a

huge challenge. Then we get into the

1:13:041:13:11

transition talks and then the trade

talks. Thank you all very much

1:13:111:13:15

indeed.

1:13:151:13:16

That's it for now -

we've got a special edition

1:13:171:13:19

of The View coming up this Thursday.

1:13:191:13:21

We'll be live from Brussels as EU

leaders meet, we presume,

1:13:211:13:24

to ratify the deal and move

discussions on towards the all

1:13:241:13:26

important trade talks.

1:13:261:13:27

Do join me for that

at 10:40 on BBC One.

1:13:271:13:30

For now, though, goodbye.

1:13:301:13:33

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