26/11/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Morning everyone and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

I'm Sarah Smith.

And this is your essential briefing

on everything that's

happening this Sunday morning

in the world of politics.

Ireland says it will "continue

to play tough until the end"

over the Irish border.

As Dublin threatens

to derail Brexit trade

talks, vice-president

of the European Parliament Mairead

McGuiness tells us why she thinks

a hard border would cause havoc.

Leading Brexiteer and former

Northern Ireland Secretary Owen

Paterson will debate with her live.

It was billed as a make or break

moment for the Chancellor -

Phillip Hammond appears to have

avoided an omni or even

a mini-shambles.

We'll get Budget reaction

from the man who last month tried

to topple Theresa May -

former Tory Chairman, Grant Shapps.

And what did the Chancellor

do for the North?

And in Northern Ireland: A rousing

reception for Arlene Foster

at her party conference

as she attacks Sinn Fein,

rules out a border in the Irish Sea

and says time is running out

to restore devolution.

All that coming up in the programme.

So, no omni-shambles Budget.

But don't worry, if you're a fan

of the shambolic you'll

love our political panel,

Sam Coates, Zoe Williams

and Iain Martin.

Welcome to the programme.

It has been the Budget that's

dominated the political week.

There was no pasty tax

or national insurance U-turn -

but there were sharp downgrades

for growth and productivity,

offset by enough optimism

to cheer the Tory benches.

This week's Budget was billed as

a make or break for Philip Hammond.

His last effort in March contained

a manifesto-mangling national

insurance rise which lasted

barely a week.

Humiliated today, Chancellor?

Will you resign?

This time, his cheery demeanour

was perhaps designed

to confound his critics

who think his outlook on Brexit

is, well, miserable.

What he's doing is very

close to sabotage.

Regrettably, our productivity

performance continues to disappoint.

But the downbeat tone

wasn't down to Hammond,

it was the independent Office

for Budget Responsibility,

the lower productivity projections

lead to growth forecasts

of less than 2%.

Here's the new realistic forecast,

average growth of just 1.4% a year.

A slowdown that won't go away.

The Chancellor may not have

been able to drive up

productivity and growth,

but he has a cunning plan to remove

the need to drive at all.

David Cameron's old mate

Jeremy Clarkson is reported to be

less than impressed.

Jeremy Clarkson doesn't like them.

But there are many other good

reasons to pursue this technology.

So today we step up

our support for it.

Sorry, Jeremy, but definitely not

the first time you've been

snubbed by Hammond and May.

More money for the English health

service, a Brexit fund

and abolishing stamp duty

for first-time buyers

lifted the mood.

I commend this

statement to the house.

But senior figures in the NHS said

the new money was not enough

and less, in this Budget at least,

than the amount pledged for Brexit,

giving some Remainers

plenty of fun on Twitter.

It turned out the stamp duty

changes would mainly help

people selling a house,

not buying them.

Tweaks to the Universal Credit

system soothed Tory concerns,

but they didn't calm

the Labour leader.

Uncaring!

The uncaring, uncooth attitude

of certain members opposite!

Order!

Order!

And his Shadow Chancellor had

some number trouble.

How much do we now spend on paying

the interest of our national debt.

A lot.

How much?

Well, I'll give you the figure.

I'll send you a note on the figure.

You don't know?

I know the figure...

How much?

I'll send it.

Well, you tell me now.

The forecast may be sticky,

but at least the Daily Mail

had a positive outlook.

Phil was no longer

a miserable donkey.

And by the end of the week,

the Chancellor could still smile.

He might even stay in Number 11

long enough to deliver

next year's Budget.

We're joined now by the former

Conservative Party

Chairman, Grant Shapps.

Thank you very much for coming in.

No banana skin in the Budget for

Philip Hammond, but really dismal

growth prospects. What is the

government back to doing wrong?

Well, first of all, he cheered up

the backbenches by giving quite an

upbeat assessment. The economy is

still growing, the jobs factory of

Europe. Not words we are used to

hearing from Philip Hammond.

But

overall, growth prospects are really

bad, they have been significantly

downgraded.

Of course, the really

big story is the Office for Budget

Responsibility say we are going to

grow at 1.5%, not 2%. That is a real

problem. I thought Philip's

presentation of the issue was

interesting. He said this is of the

outside of our control, it is the

office of Budget response ability.

It is to do with productivity, who

knows what that is made up of? That

sort of excuses get mug from having

to do anything. There are things we

can do to attract business to this

country. You have the tax base, the

attitude towards business. We spent

quite a while looking like we were

not interested in business, business

being thought of as bad. I am

pleased to see that is changing.

You

think the few has a pro-business

attitude that wasn't there a year

ago?

We have them locked out of

Downing Street for a while, sector

leaders could not express their

concerns. Some conference speeches

that business as the bad guys rather

than job creators. That seems to

have gone and I welcome it.

Why?

Because it is not realistic to

believe that business is evil and

bad. Business people that create the

jobs for this country, the well for

this country...

But why do you think

the government but robust change the

message on that?

It is hard to know

what created that. Since the

election we have a change in

emphasis. Business leaders are now

welcomed to come and talk to the

Prime Minister and the Chancellor

about what is going on. One thing we

could do now, we are leaving Europe,

we had all of those red tape

challenges in the Coalition

Government but we always got stuck

when it got to the EU. We had to

say, we can't do anything about that

red tape. We can now go back on

that. I would like the cupboard to

go further and not just accept

figures from the Office for Budget

Responsibility. I'm actually

doubtful about that and I think that

Philip Hammond is as well. Growth of

productivity is a difficult thing to

measure. This country trades more

online than any other country in the

world. We are top of that league

table. That has to be a more

efficient way to do business. Yet it

does not seem to be reflected in

productivity.

They are forecasts,

the productivity figures. But the

middle, things could be worse, the

OBR say. The... Seems to say these

are the projections, we hope it

isn't that. Is it the Buttler's job

to do something about productivity?

The government EU has a role to

play. I started a printing business

which still exists to this day.

Uncertainty over Brexit could lead a

business like that to delay

purchasing a new press. One that is

likely to be faster, less setup

time, print stuff faster.

Uncertainty in the economy slows

that down. Of course the Government

has a role. It cannot act the way it

treats taxation, investment, it can

encourage businesses. Actually, I

suspect what the Office for Budget

Responsibility has done is said, oh,

all of this uncertainty has lead to

slower productivity and therefore we

will continue projecting forward,

almost ad infinitum. The projections

went up five years. If we can get

the Brexit uncertainty out of the

way...

That is what I was about to

say. The great uncertainty is under

Brexit. We are not entering a period

where things will be more certain

people can confidently make

investment decisions, nobody knows

what the future trading relationship

will be.

I think Government can help

with that. If you have a Government

that, at its heart, fundamentally,

is singing from the same hymn sheet,

you saw Number 10 and Number 11,

finally, a bit of banter between the

two of them, the Chancellor and the

Prime Minister, they went out on

Thursday and did a visit together.

You have a Cabinet meeting reported

from Tuesday where they are agreeing

how to go forward collectively on

Europe. If you can have the central

government working in unison, it

gives business of evidence, it gives

the economy confidence that maybe

you can get to faster growth by

having better productivity and more

inward investment.

Six weeks ago you

were calling for the Prime Minister

to stand down. You were outed as

leading a coup against her. Have you

changed your mind?

I saw your

lead-in, calling colleagues that

want to go and speak to the Prime

Minister about a perfectly sensible

subject that she herself has asked

for colleagues' opinions on, how

long should I be in this role, to

call it a plot is tabloid. The

reality is, of course colleagues

should be able to have that

conversation. We do not live in

North Korea. We shouldn't be not

allowed to express views, nor do

they disappear if you don't express

them.

You said your colleagues have

buried their heads in the sand,

hoping things would get better. It

never got better for Gordon Brown or

John Major, it will not get that for

Theresa May. Have you changed your

mind

I think that colleagues should

be allowed to have views and express

them. My views have not changed.

However, I also accept the reality

of the situation, that we are in a

very sensitive period with Brexit

negotiations. Six weeks ago is six

weeks ago. Time moves on and Brexit

negotiations wait 101. What we have

to do have is a Government that is

capable of singing from the same

hymn sheet, going to Brussels. If

you have Number 10 and Number 11 at

each other's throats, when you have

people been briefed against the

centre, whips that are more

interested in... We have mutineers

on the front of the Telegraph, 50

people that wanted not to have the

date for Brexit in the bill. I don't

happen to agree with those people.

But to have colleagues accused of

being mutineers because they have a

slightly diverted the view is

ridiculous. -- diverted view. I am

pleased what we are seeing now is an

attitude from the centre saying

let's work together, let's not

briefed against others, let's get on

and stop the country from the even

bigger danger than Brexit, a Jeremy

Corbyn government.

Stay there for a

moment. I am going to bring in the

panel. You were listening to that

interview. A change in mood towards

the Prime Minister?

Haven't seems to

have cheered up a lot. He seemed to

me like a man giving his own leaving

speech. There was a devil may care

attitude aspect, not really backed

up by what you're saying. They

wanted always. There would be OBR

figures to be nothing to do with a

Government. Unfortunately they have

revised down, there is nothing we

can really do. At the same time,

they wanted to show Conservative

policies are capable of driving

growth. They want to say,

unfortunately it is not a generous

Budget because growth figures are

revised downwards, while at the same

time saying that the OBR is often

wrong, who knows if it will be

correct. I don't think you get any

clear analysis from this.

Cake and

eat it?

The significance is not

really economic, it is political. If

you go back a week, it seemed

possible, likely even, that the

Chancellor was going to be replaced

in a reshuffle expected between now

and Christmas. He has saved his job.

His critics in other parties will

say, well, his job should be about

more than his own personal survival.

But it alters the dynamics. It means

that the government but was not

quite Chancellor, it means a

reshuffle could be less substantial

than might have been the case. It

seems the Tories have had a shocking

run over the last few months. They

were rather buoyed up by it. Not

that it was a massive success as a

Budget, it was just OK. That counts

for quite a lot at the moment.

Listening to what Grant Shapps was

telling us, it sounds like Theresa

May's job is safe as well?

I would

if she is sitting in Downing Street

wearing a badge saying Philip

Hammond saved my job? The point is,

just to pull out the camera, the

fundamentals have not changed. The

Conservatives did not win an overall

majority at the election, they still

have to deliver Brexit in an

incredibly complicated process, that

looks intractable with negotiation

difficulties, particularly with

Ireland, but also bringing the

Cabinet together over some of these

incredibly thorny issues about where

Brexit is going to end up. Although

Grant is putting a positive gloss on

it now, the conference after which

he was adjusted people might

consider her going -- after which he

suggested people might consider her

going, things have not really

changed. He says his view has not

really changed, and I think that

many of the people that Grant talks

to, they have not changed their

fundamental view about the talents

and otherwise of Theresa May. I

wonder how many people think what

Grant thinks at the moment?

We will

come back to you and ask you that.

How many people agree with you? Do

you still have the same view about

the Prime Minister?

I have said

exactly what I think. You don't have

to second-guess what I think about

all of this. Nor do I think it is

worth day by day giving a running

commentary on that. I was heartened

to see Number 10 and number 11

working together. We can make some

progress. I think that is a very

good thing. The lesson to be

learned, just because people have

diverse views, it has not been there

should be vilified. I think we were

in danger of doing that through the

whips or Number 10, or what have

you. I'm pleased to see we have a

more mature attitude coming from

Downing Street.

You once said you thought you would

make a good Prime Minister yourself,

do you still think that?

The

question was do you have the

required ability to make these

decisions and the rest of it. To

answer that question would be as if

to say I don't think she should be

doing it but that's not what I think

at all. I think this country

requires leadership which unites

particularly those involved in the

Government and I'm pleased that's

what we are now starting to get.

Grant Shapps, thanks for coming to

talk to us today.

Now, the Northern Powerhouse

was a phrase coined

by Philip Hammond's predecessor,

George Osborne.

But Theresa May has insisted

that she wouldn't be

pulling the plug on it.

So how did it fare in

this month's Budget?

Joining us now from

Salford is the Mayor

of Greater Manchester,

Andy Burnham.

Thanks for coming in. I assume you

must be very pleased with the Budget

and the amount of money delivered

for the Northern Powerhouse?

When I

came into this job I was clear I

would never play politics for the

sake of it. There was good news in

this Budget for Manchester, money

which we need very much, money to

help us tackle rough sleeping.

Again, a big priority for me. But

overall I have to say it is pretty

thin pickings for the north of

England. The headline measure on

stamp duty massively benefits the

South over the north and people here

who are suffering every day on the

rail system, our clapped-out rail

system, they didn't get any good

news in terms of electrification or

improvement of services. All we got

was an -- promise of improvement of

mobile services.

The Government is

giving new £12 million to help cover

the cost relating to the Manchester

Arena attack. You must be welcoming

of that too.

This is difficult

because I'm conscious whenever this

issue comes up, I'm conscious of the

families. We put our bid in some

time ago. The cost we have incurred

so far is 17 million and we have a

further 11 million we will incur

through the inquest process. We have

been raising that privately and I

haven't gone public on this issue

until the Prime Minister said last

week we would have the answer, and

we got that on Friday. It falls some

way short. I cannot see why the

Government is not meeting our cost

in full. As I said at the beginning,

I would never make politics out of

this issue but when we got our

answer and it wasn't good enough I

had to make our position clear. I

will be replying to the Prime

Minister saying let's sort this out

properly. I just hope we can now get

a full agreement for all of our

costs from the Government.

You've

accused the Government before of

being London centric and ignoring

other parts of the UK. Given that

you have welcomed of the spending

measures, do you feel that problem

has been addressed?

Definitely not.

The country is London centric. The

way transport investment is assessed

by the Treasury favours the areas

where there is already greater

economic growth. The system is

biased against the north and that

needs to change. In the Budget we

got a half-hearted commitment to the

rail system of the future for the

north of England but Crossrail 2,

the project in London, got more of a

thumbs up. I'm speaking for people

here who feel this has been very

unfair over decades. We have a

transport system here that is

creaking now and it is completely

congested, it isn't working for

people. The Government needs to grip

that problem much more directly. The

problem I guess with this Budget was

there's an elephant in the room and

that is the Brexit Divorce Bill.

There was a feeling for me they were

not committing money our

infrastructure cause of this thing

looming behind. To have no mention

of social care, no mention of police

funding, these were two gaping holes

at the heart of this Budget.

Surely

you think they should be making a

generous offer for the Brexit

divorce settlement? You are not

advocating that we walk away without

paying our dues?

No, my point was a

different one. It looks like the

Government is holding back on the

investment the north of England

needs until they have settled this

question, but the challenges facing

our public services and the

productivity challenge facing the

north is urgent and it is critical

we get that investment so we can

rise to the challenge of exit. I saw

this as a Budget where the

Chancellor was holding back. This

year of all years, to have no

mention of police security

counterterrorism in the Budget

seemed a monumental mistake. The

police service here has not got much

left to give. It is down to the bare

minimum and we need to see the

Chancellor bringing forward new

funding for the police in the

December settlement that it's about

to get. To have no mention of it

just seemed to me to be a major

mistake.

What did you make of Jeremy

Corbyn's response to the Budget?

I

thought it was passionate. I don't

think they will deal with the issue

of Universal Credit.

It was

passionate but was it effective?

I

think so. People want to see people

speaking with that level of

commitment, genuine concern. The

dangers are still there with

Universal Credit. Tinkering with the

waiting times I don't think will

take away the problem that it could

put more people on our streets,

huddled in doorways. The Government

needs to give a clear commitment

that we won't see people spiralling

into debt and then at the risk of

being homeless as a result of

Universal Credit roll out.

The day

after the Budget John McDonnell got

in a muddle over his figures on debt

repayment. He must -- you must have

been cringing as you watched some of

those interviews.

You always get

these interviews after the Budget. I

have sat in those positions and I

think it is partly what turns people

off politics. I'm not here

necessarily to speak for the front

bench, I thought they mounted a good

critique of the Budget. What I want

is a more wholehearted embrace of

devolution from both political

parties. The challenge the country

is facing right now is that we are

to London centric, Brexit is

looming, we need investment in the

regions and I don't think we can

bring this power back from Brussels

and then keep it all in Westminster.

We are already in overcentralised

country and its crucial the power is

passed down to places like Greater

Manchester and I want to see both

parties embracing that is part of

the response to the referendum.

I'm

not asking you to speak for the

Labour front bench, but how did it

look to you when they were

responding to it, you will know

Labour are trailing in the polls on

economic competence - did they do

enough this week to adjust people's

view as to whether or not Labour

should be put in charge of the

economy?

That is the challenge that

the Labour Party has to convince the

country it can run a stronger

economy. The Shadow Chancellor has

put investment in infrastructure

front and centre of what he's saying

and I think he's absolutely right to

do that. The country is crying out

for that transport system,

particularly here in the north that

will allow us to improve

productivity and they are not

getting that from the current

Chancellor. Looming questions about

the Divorce Bill, so therefore he

won't commit to the investment now.

What you got from the Shadow

Chancellor was a clearer analysis of

what the country needs, and I think

that's what people want to hear.

Andy Burnham, thank you for coming

in to talk to us.

Last week we had a film from Leave

campaigner Gisela Stuart on why

business will continue to prosper

across Europe after Brexit.

This week, London and Dublin have

clashed over what will

happen to the border

between Northern Ireland

and the Irish Republic -

something the EU says needs to be

resolved if Brexit negotiations

are to move onto trade next month.

So today, Irish MEP and vice

president of the European

Parliament, Mairead McGuiness,

takes us to the border to explain

why she thinks Brexit

could cause business -

and the people on the

island of Ireland -

considerable difficulties.

This is Dundalk in County Louth,

a town close to the border

with Northern Ireland,

and close to where I grew up myself.

Today, I represent the constituency

along that 310 mile border.

With the Brexit negotiations

ongoing, people along the border

are troubled by the uncertainty.

From Dundalk, you can take

a straight road to Northern Ireland

and there's no stopping.

At the last count, there are over

300 different road crossings

between the Republic of Ireland

and Northern Ireland.

The big question is,

what will change post-Brexit?

And what do we have to do to keep

the situation as it is today?

For me, there is only one way,

that the United Kingdom stays

in the customs union.

But I know the UK are

determined not to do that.

I think the negotiations

are struggling.

Not too far from the border

crossing, just south,

I caught up with beef farmer Jim

Murray.

That's the actual border

itself, just ahead.

The actual border is about

half a mile past that.

Today it is frictionless

and seamless, and invisible.

Totally.

Do think it's going to stay

that way after Brexit?

Well, I hope it will stay like that,

because were used to this.

Well, I hope it will stay like that,

because we're used to this.

I come from a time when I remember

that you couldn't actually go down

that road to access,

to do some business

in the north, because the road

was actually blocked.

Have you been reassured by any

of the political statements around

the border in particular,

basically saying that things

will stay as they are?

I haven't, really, because seamless

and frictionless borders, you know,

to me it is an oxymoron.

Because it's still a border.

I also visited George McArdle.

He's been running a haulage

company for the last 50

years with experience

of crossing the border.

What are you worried about?

We're worried about

customs and delays.

We'd be delayed a couple of hours.

Would there be costs

involved for you?

We'd be paying drivers,

the trucks lying idle.

People say that, while we have

peace, it is fragile.

It's very fragile.

Any little thing could upset

the whole thing again,

and we wouldn't like to see Brexit

be the cause of it.

We are moving from the Republic

of Ireland, just across the border,

and I'm now in Northern Ireland.

It was very smooth,

seamless and frictionless.

I suppose that's what we want to see

continue in a post-Brexit era.

Just across the border

into Northern Ireland, I caught

up with Des Fraser,

who gave me his view

about why the United Kingdom

decided to leave Europe.

First of all it was the cost.

I also felt, particularly the likes

of the slurry ban, for agriculture,

I don't think there should be

somebody in Brussels

telling us when we can

or can't spread our slurry.

What effect do you think Brexit

would have on the border?

Do you think we're going to be able

to avoid a hard border?

Getting a solution is

the difficulty, there's no doubt.

There's a harmonious

relationship, you know,

with Europe and Switzerland,

Europe and Norway, without a hard

border in existence.

It's very clear that people on both

sides of the border want the special

circumstances on the island

of Ireland to be taken into account

in the Brexit negotiations.

But can it be and will it be done

in time for the December council?

Will we resolve the conundrum

and square the circle

of an invisible border on the island

of Ireland post-Brexit?

And Mairead McGuiness

joins us now from Dublin.

The former Northern Ireland

Secretary and leading Brexiteer,

Owen Paterson, is in Shropshire.

Thank you both for joining us. Owen

Paterson, Mariad laid out her case,

does the Government have an answer

to this?

Yes, there's already an

existing border. I've been going

there since ten years ago. There's a

currency board, now a euro sterling

border, a VAT border, a corporation

tax border, and in all the time I've

been going to Northern Ireland and

the public, not a single person ever

said this presents a problem.

...

Physical border.

Through the

referendum campaign, we made it

clear there are electronic measures

and techniques, existing techniques

such as authorised economic

operators and this can all be made

to work if there is a will on the

border. It has a small amount of

trade. Northern Ireland has 80% of

its trade to the rest of the UK,

only 5% goes over the border. It

would be very easy to license

tankers that take milk over the

border as authorising economic

operators that go over every day,

they would be recognised on a

regular basis, all invoices done

electronically. It is a very small

problem if there is a will.

Let's

bring in Mairead McGuiness. Owen

Paterson sounds like he's saying

you're exaggerating the problem is

here.

I've listened to it several times

and not heard anything new. He is

right that where there is a will

there is a way. This is a serious

matter for my constituency, for the

island of Ireland and Europe. We

have not found the way. To bring up

separate currencies, OK, it is part

of the situation, but we don't have

a border in the visible sense. When

the United Kingdom remains

determined to leave the customs

union and single market, the milk

that he refers to produced in

Northern Ireland and processed in

the Republic of Ireland comes from a

country that is a third country, no

longer a member of the European

Union. There are many issues about

that. I know the fathers in Northern

Ireland are deeply concerned about

the consequences for them as daily

farmers. -- dairy farmers. They are

troubled by his insistence that he

wants to scrap many of the rules

around the food industry and

agriculture. He wants to scrap

support for agriculture. Even

farmers that voted Leave, they are

now quite perplexed about what they

are hearing from the UK side, not

just around the issue of the border,

but on the wider issues of trade.

That is where this problem really

lies, and where we will have great

difficulty. I am more troubled this

morning, because I read a quote from

Arlene Fox the trade Secretary,

saying that the border issue and the

Irish issue will not be solved until

the final stage, until we reach a

decision on trade. I hope the United

Kingdom is not holding the situation

to ransom in these negotiations. It

is far too serious and too critical.

Let's go to Owen Paterson.

May I

finish this point?

We now have a

situation on the island of Ireland

and Northern Ireland where we have

built piece and we are hoping to

maintain that. I believe that we

will and we can. Unfortunately,

there is no assembly, there are

divisions between the communities

but they are now becoming deeper. We

have to work really hard to avoid

that. Part of that is to make sure,

as Theresa May said on Friday, she

wants the situation to remain the

same as it is today, post-Brexit.

The only way to achieve that is to

stay in the customs union and single

market. That is the solution.

A lot

for you to pick up on. Let's start

with the idea that it might be

possible to come up with a final

solution to the Irish border

question after we have seen the

shape of a trade deal. EU made it

clear we cannot talk about trade

until the Irish border has been

settled?

Saw those comments were

completely ridiculous and they have

been repeated when we have done

interviews before. -- some of those

comments. The idea that Northern

Ireland will be taken out of the UK

is absurd. 78 million people voted

to leave the European Union, they

voted to leave the customs union and

the single market, and the

jurisdiction of the ECJ. The idea

that politicians in Dublin can

somehow start to force Northern

Ireland to stay, against the will of

a significant number of citizens,

within an arrangement that will not

serve the economic and you're

politically, it is really very

dangerous. Let's talk about the

peace process, I can't think of

anything more destabilising... This

is a really important point. I want

to make this point. It is really

very irresponsible politicians to

make a statement like that, saying

they are going to force and

blackmail the UK into getting a

special status for Northern Ireland

outside the rest of the UK. That is

a really dangerous thing to do and

they should stop doing it. There are

perfectly sensible, technical

solutions to the problem of the

border. We currently have complete

conformity of standards. Products

going over the border go on a very

regular basis. It is a tiny part of

trade between the Republic of

Ireland and the UK. It is a really

tiny part of trade between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

and it is solvable by modern

methods. The idea we will go back to

old customs, with customs officials

in bridges, sticking a ladle into a

couple trickle, it is out of date.

Less than 2% of goods are inspected

physically. This is completely out

of date. -- sticking a ladle into a

tub of back-to-back.

I am disturbed

by some of those comments, to

describe that view as ridiculous is

not helpful. To suggest it is

blackmailing is appalling. The UK,

the Irish at the European Union know

we have had a difficult history. We

have worked hard politically and

financially to make sure we move

forward and we have. If the United

Kingdom does trade agreements with

other partners and goods are flowing

into Northern Ireland, we have to

watch and know where they are coming

from. That will affect businesses in

Northern Ireland, as it will affect

businesses in the European Union. I

dislike this notion, and it is

happening and happened again in this

studio this morning, that the United

Kingdom and Owen Paterson would say

if borders go up, it is our fault.

Let's be frank, because we should

be, we are neighbours and good

friends. The European Union, 28

today, we respect the democratic

decision of the United Kingdom to

leave, but I would ask you to

reflect on the reality of Northern

Ireland, where people voted to stay

because they knew the consequences

for them. Regrettably, where the

referendum was taking place, there

was no talk about the consequences

referendum was taking place, there

was no talk about the consequences

for Northern Ireland or the island

of Ireland. We are left in a

situation where, retrospectively, we

are trying to find solutions. If it

upsets your guest at the studio, I

repeated anyway, we have to be frank

with one another. The way to stay

the same on the island of Ireland,

as it is today, post-Brexit, is for

at least the United Kingdom to take

the red off the table, to stay the

customs union and single market

gives us what we have today, and

invisible border, seamless trade,

and also building at helping to keep

those relationships. The good

relationship was helped in no small

part because Ireland, the United

Kingdom and 26 other countries can

sit around a table. They sit in the

European Parliament, in the council,

and we do business because we got to

know each other. We have formal and

informal talks and relationships. We

should really strive to continue

that. It is in the interests of the

people we spoke to on the border,

those that wanted the United Kingdom

to stay, and those that might have

had a different view.

Owen Paterson,

can you see that this can be

resolved before we know the shape of

a final trade deal? The idea that

the Irish question needs to be

settled before we move on to talking

about future trading or relations?

Is that possible?

As somebody who

spent time a shadow and Secretary of

State, going very regularly to

Dublin, getting the main political

parties in on that, I appreciate the

good level of relations between the

UK and the Republic of Ireland, the

enormous benefits to so many people.

Therefore, I am absolutely dismayed

at the talk this morning, which is

completely unrealistic, expecting

Northern Ireland to be given a

separate status, outside,

effectively, the United Kingdom. 87%

of sales, purely on economics, are

within the UK. Henri

-- on economic grounds, it is crazy.

It is very dangerous. There was a

referendum at the time of the

Belfast agreement. There was

overwhelming support for it to stay

in the UK. All of the polls show

that Northern Ireland will stay very

firmly within the UK.

Very quickly,

then, one last point?

I hate to say,

but Owen may not be listening to

what I said. I said the United

Kingdom would stay in the customs

union and single market, I did not

say Northern Ireland should separate

and stay in, although that is a

potential solution, it is not the

one I said this morning. Please

respond to what I have said.

We

don't have time to respond to any of

that. It is an issue we will return

to. Thank you very much.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland.

A standing ovation for

Arlene Foster at the party

conference after a roller-coaster

year for the DUP and its leader.

But what did outside

observers make of it?

With me are the journalist

Amanda Ferguson and Professors Pete

Shirlow and Rick Wilford.

The DUP leader, Arlene Foster,

has warned that time is running out

to do a deal to restore

power-sharing before direct rule

ministers are brought in.

She also told the DUP conference

that Unionists have nothing to fear

from the Irish language and that

Republicans need to start

respecting British culture.

We'll hear more from the DUP

leader in a moment -

but first our Political

Correspondent, Enda McClafferty,

has this report.

Whatever the outfit

Arlene Foster has become

a master of transformation.

She managed to turn the DUP's worst

year into their best.

And she's now got one billion

reasons to celebrate and a deputy

singing her praises.

Those who thought you could be

browbeaten or high-rise total

politics did not reckon on the will

and resolve of a strong Unionist

woman from County Fermanagh.

She is for the DUP a keeper

in more ways than one.

One or two Micro of my colleagues,

date might have a little trouble,

but I am content with my.

She is the

goalkeeper. She is keeping the goal.

But the picture at Stormont

is very different.

Last year Arlene Foster never once

mentioned Sinn Fein in her speech.

But she found space this year.

It is time that Sinn Fein started to

respect our British culture. For too

on behalf of all nothing but disdain

and disrespect for the National

flag, the Royal Family, the Armed

Forces, but just symbols, the

constitutional reality, and the very

name of this country. We are up for

respect.

And that struck a chord

with this Irish language speaking

DUP member from Dublin.

Does he think his party

needs to support a stand

alone Irish Language

Act?

The DUP is happy to accommodate

Irish because in Northern Ireland

and further afield. It is very sad

that one political party is using my

first language as the weapon to

destroy progress in politics of

Northern Ireland.

In your opinion is

the DUP a warm House for Irish

language speakers?

Eight very warm

House for me, warmer than any other

party.

And outside we found another one.

Are they not asking you questions?

In Irish?

Try something in Irish. I

would not know what to say.

She wasn't the only

conference first timer.

The Tory party's

Chief Whip was there,

and yes we did ask about getting

the rest of our promised £1 billion.

With or without

an executive.

The deal has been done. That

Agreement is transparent, in the

public domain, the Conservative

Party and the DUP are happy with how

that is going. We will deliver

conservative values of the

Conservative Government will deliver

on that Agreement.

Will money still

come if there is no power-sharing

executive?

That is implicit in my

answer, we have done a deal, we will

deliver on it.

It is clear Arlene

Foster and the DUP are relishing

their role as power brokers at

Westminster. But while they may have

some friends in high places now, she

is still a leader without a

parliament. And there is no sign but

is going to change any time soon.

Enda McClafferty with that report

from the DUP conference.

Well I spoke to Arlene Foster just

after she delivered that address

and I asked her what she would say

was the big idea in her speech.

What I wanted to concentrate on was

the fact that we see ourselves as

the People's party, the party that

represents people, but we want to

get things done, get more jobs,

better infrastructure, our health

service, have a better education

seven. I was talking about the fact

that they want to be the party for

Northern Ireland, and the People's

party. That was the theme. I touched

on other issues. I touched on

Brexit. And of course the year that

we have had. We covered quite a lot

of ground but that was really the

thing.

But you accept there are a

lot people who would have watched

that speech and watching this

interview who do not share your

definition of Northern Irish nest.

They would see they have more in

common with the Republic of Ireland

than people and their rest of the

UK. They do not see people through

the same lens that you see them.

There is a diverse range of opinions

in Northern Ireland. Perhaps you are

interested in the union for

political reasons, some people are

interested for cultural or social

reasons, and there are those who

want to be in the union for economic

reasons. Whatever your reasons for

wanting to stay within the UK, it is

very clear, look at all the service,

people want to remain with them the

UK. There are those who have an

aspiration to be in a united

Ireland, but it is

legitimate, but for the union, and

to see two people, your future is

best within the UK. The sixth

largest economy in the world. We are

going to look forward after Brexit

to the opportunities available to

us. And we could be a very different

place in the future if we put our

minds to it.

That majority of people

in Northern Ireland who do not see

Brexit about me, they do not see it

as an opportunity, BC it as a

serious obstacle, something that

when it comes into effect the year

after next May impact negatively on

them and their families.

And they

are entitled to hold that view. From

my point of view, I think it is a

tremendous opportunity. There will

be short-term challenges but you can

either meet a challenge looking at

it in a negative way or meet it in a

positive way to look for

opportunities in the future. Any

business people I have spoken to

over this past member of months have

all been saying we may not have

faltered in relation to this but we

accepted that is going to happen,

therefore we need to make

sure the best deal for Northern

Ireland, in that context it is very

important that we do not have any

barriers to trade with the rest of

the UK. We talked about that in the

speech, 72% of the trade out of

Belfast is to Great Britain. We need

to make sure there are no barriers

in the future to allow that to

continue.

You are in a relationship

with the Conservative Party at the

moment, your ten MPs are keeping

Theresa May in ten Downing St, a

number of high-profile Tories

attended the conference, but then we

had Kenneth Clarke last week saying

he does not see how the Tories can

deliver what they say they will

deliver in terms of a frictionless

border for Northern Ireland and the

Republic of Ireland, unless Northern

Ireland remains in the customs union

and the single market. He said,

speaking as a conservative and

Unionist, the border should be in

the middle of the Irish Sea. It is

not just nationalists, people in the

Republic of Ireland that do not

shoot your rose tinted view, they

might say, of the Brexit challenge.

I know the media find that the

vehicle to for positivity in

relation to Brexit but I also

understand Peter Lilley was on your

programme and he is a conservative

and he was positive about the

relationship with the DUP. Democracy

is a wonderful thing, people have

different views, from my point of

view, it is important that we have a

vision for unionism and that we

drive forward the positivity in the

future.

Where do you stand in your

relationship at the moment with Leo

Varadkar? Do you think that the

arrival of Leo Varadkar in the

office of Taoiseach has made the

relationship between UK negotiators

and Republic of Ireland

administration more difficult? Your

relationship as leader of DUP, has

become more difficult since Leo

Varadkar has taken up that job?

Our

religion ship has not become more

difficult, I was delighted that he

came down to Eniskillen for

Remembrance Day. I appreciate that

he did that. He has a different view

in relation to Brexit, he is there

to represent his own country. I am

here to represent Northern Ireland.

We will have those to Scotians. I am

disappointed by some of their

commentary and some of the

projecting of aspirations for a

united Ireland on to what should be

European Union exits negotiations,

but that is a matter for them, I am

trying to move to the next phase of

the negotiations so that we can get

into the detail of what the border

will look like because until we

moved to those trade negotiations we

will not have the detail, and it

will become cart before the horse.

Do you regret saying that Leo

Varadkar was reckless in some

comments about Brexit? And that

playing with the future of Northern

Ireland in the way he has handled

this talks which was that clumsy on

your part?

Absolutely not. It has

been shown to be the case over the

last week, their rhetoric has been

stepped up as the week has gone on.

I understand, Brexit has been a huge

shock to people in the Republic of

Ireland, I accept that. But they

should be trying to work with us in

Northern Ireland and the entire UK

to try and find a solution because

it is happening. I do recall very

well one of my first meetings with

Leo Varadkar, it was about he did

not want Brexit to happen, we had to

disabuse him of that position. Their

next meeting was about staying in

the customs union, we had to say, we

are leaving the customs union, the

single market, otherwise Brexit will

not be put in place. There is a

sense of shock in the Republic of

Ireland and I can understand that

but instead of megaphone diplomacy

and being reckless with Northern

Ireland we should be engaging and

finding a way forward that will mean

for the Republic of Ireland,

Northern Ireland, the rest of the UK

that we can move into the future in

a positive way.

You are wanting him

to roll over and see everything

through D UPI 's?

That would be

lovely, if you could arrange that,

that would be wonderful.

He speaks

to people in the Republic of

Ireland, Brexit potentially is a

huge problem for people in the

south. He is not happy about it, he

does not think there is anything

good about it and he will state his

case. He will keep saying this is

not good for us, not good for the

European Union, he does not think it

is good for the people in Northern

Ireland, he will keep saying it

however many times it takes for

people to start listening.

And I

will keep seeing what I had to say.

Two can play at that game. It is

that simple? No compromise from your

point of view? A special arrangement

for Northern Ireland?

No, we are in

union with the UK, we hear a lot

about the Belfast Agreement, people

trying to cherry pick bits of that

to justify their stance, the

fundamental issue is the principle

of consent which says that until the

people of Northern Ireland 's decide

otherwise we are an integral part of

the United Kingdom. Politics,

Society, cultural reasons, and

importantly, for economic reasons.

Every business that I visit has said

to me very clearly they do not want

a border down the Irish Sea, which

is something that bizarrely the

Republic of Ireland has been talking

about. That is self harm for the

protection, they should want to keep

up on the trading relationship with

Great Britain because that is their

biggest market. They should want to

keep that relationship open as much

as possible.

People in the Republic

of Ireland do not accept that, they

do not accept your figures. A figure

of 60% export has been quartered for

Republic of Ireland exports to UK,

leading economists in the UK say it

is less than 60%, something in the

region of 15%.

The Republic of

Ireland saying that Great Britain is

not an important market?

Not

necessarily the biggest market.

I do

not need to poetry anything for the

Republic of Ireland, I am simply

saying they should not try to cut

off one of the biggest markets, I am

not going to cherry pick around

that, I do not have a horse in the

race, I am concerned about the fact

that our biggest market, this is a

fact, talk to anybody in business in

Northern Ireland, our biggest market

is Great Britain, it would be

absolute madness and a complete

dereliction of my duty as a publicly

presented to have if I did not try

to stop the border in the Irish Sea.

Let us talk about Stormont and the

situation there. Are we heading

towards Di recruit in the short

term? Is that inevitable.

I hope it

is not. I talked a lot about

devolution and why I think

devolution is best for Northern

Ireland. We have issues going on

around the issue of a possible

general election if a general

election is called. And forcibly I

believe that Sinn Fein will then

focus on the Dublin and Republic of

Ireland elections and they will not

be focused on Stormont. We will meet

the Secretary of State on Monday

again as he has asked. You will

recall that Sinn Fein met the talks

after he brought in the budget for

Northern Ireland. I hope that they

will re-engage and try and bring

devolution back again to Northern

Ireland.

Are you optimistic that you

will be back as First Minister in

months rather than years?

You have

to be an optimist in Northern

Ireland politics and politics is all

about the possibility of making

things work and I want to seek

Stormont working again.

Arlene Foster speaking

to me straight after

yesterday's conference speech.

Let's hear what my guests of the day

make of what she had to say.

Amanda Ferguson, you were at the

conference, you spoke to some of the

delegates, how do you sum up the

mood of the occasion?

It was quite

subdued and team. DUP was conscious

of the eyes of Great Britain being

on the conference this year because

of their arrangement with the

Tories. It was very much efforts

made to make sure that more

colourful characters had a lower

profile this year. Arlene Foster has

written to the head of the EU 27 to

outline her position. She really

beside the point that DUP will not

accept any internal borders. What I

found interesting in the speech of

Nigel Dodds was it was very much to

emphasise support for a Arlene

Foster, a lot of warmth and

positivity around Brexit from the

delicates. -- delegates. He spoke of

issues about demographics that

Unionists have to be conscious of.

The DUP are starting to do what they

should have been doing for a long

time, focusing on the benefits of

the union, just as Republicans are

catching up with the idea of selling

what a united Ireland means.

Any

surprises? Not at all. On one level

her speech was quite conciliatory.

It was not just a gimmick about the

Irish language. The collapse of the

Assembly and the talks are making

them realise that political

dominance, each had to define what

was unionism. It is economic,

logical, cultural. It is interesting

that they are attempting a modern

idea of what unionism is. They can

hint at issues, respect for

everybody, tolerance, well-being,

but can they go into equality

rights?

Several parts of the speech

when Arlene Foster trained her fire

on Sinn Fein but at the same time

she made it clear she wants back

into a devolved executive with Sinn

Fein as soon as possible, is that a

contradiction?

She can take a swipe

at front of the party faithful, at

the same time expressing a

preference for devolution. Some

aspects of the speech, and the

speech of Nigel Dodds, implied they

are softening their base for the

possibility of direct rule. She

needed to demonstrate to her base

that she was still tough and

prepared to stand up to Sinn Fein

but one of the important themes is

that unionism, because that is

confronted now with Sinn Fein in the

north, bristling with enthusiasm and

confidence, unionism needs to start

thinking proactively about what

offer they can make. If she is going

to see that DUP is the party of the

people we have got to come up with a

formula of unionism that can appeal

more than it currently does.

How

secure is she in her leadership

position as the emphasis shifts

towards Westminster?

The difficulty,

DUP needs that more than Sinn Fein.

Nigel Dodds made clear the strength

of her character, but she will be

leading the party for a long time.

A

quick word on her security?

I think

she is incredibly secure. She is

very much respected within her

party. She is seen as a victim, and

in the sectarian politics that we

have, nothing better than being seen

as a victim.

Let's

pause

for a moment and take

a look back at the political

week in 60 seconds -

with Gareth Gordon.

Gerry Adams and I said that he was

stepping down prompted strong words.

I could not forgive him for that.

Theresa May met DUP and Sinn Fein

and told them to get back to talks.

We are not underestimating the

challenges that a way forward can be

found.

The Chancellor's budget

brought more money for Northern

Ireland but with most of it

earmarked for big projects

department still find themselves

squeezed for a cash. Suggestions of

an amnesty for former security force

personnel proved divisive.

We are

opposed to amnesty.

That is a

statute of flirtations.

The Unionist

peer was accused of racism after

labelling Leo Varadkar as the Indian

in a treat.

A political row.

Gareth Gordon - and let's have

a final word with my studio guests.

Interesting contribution from the

Irish EU emission in The Observer,

Phil Hogan.

Upping the ante?

Reinforcing what Leo Varadkar has

already said. A guarantee there will

be no hard border. The Commissioner

reaffirming the position. People are

trying to dance around this issue of

the border but it is not placated

and the idea there is an electronic

fix, I think is pie in the sky.

Liam

Fox, speaking this morning, he says

we need to get this matter sorted

out otherwise we cannot move other

issues. He says December the 14th

deal will run for months, not weeks.

None of the political actors are

calling for a hard border, the

idling is over how the soft border

is worked. What is interesting about

the intervention by Taoiseach is the

presence of Sinn Fein in the

Republic is making him take this

issue very seriously because they

cannot be seen as the party that

stood by and allowed a hard border

which is not going to happen anyway.

One of the things you need in a

discussion is a problem, and to have

Arlene Foster and Taoiseach arguing

points out that there is a hard

border there is a problem, there is

stage managing to make this an

aborted issue.

We are looking into

the possibility of an election in

the south. This could be crucial.

Realistically, even if there was an

election.

That's it.

Welcome back.

Now, they play big in Westminster -

but does the rest of the country

notice big set-piece political

moments like this week's Budget?

Ellie took our not-so-scientific

barometer of public opinion,

the Moodbox, to Yorkshire.

Two things happened this week

to make us think about spending

and feel like we've got more pounds

in our pockets.

But which was more important?

That's a question we're asking

shoppers here in Leeds today.

What matters more?

Is it Black Friday or the Budget?

Black Friday, because

you're out there, you're

going to get a bargain.

It's a nice build-up

towards Christmas and the Budget,

they take away from you.

This is a more fun day than watching

Philip Hammond doing the Budget?

Definitely!

Is not going to spoil our day today.

# Cos we are living

in a material world

# And I am a material girl...

The Budget matters for first-time

buyers, with the stamp duty.

My daughter is buying.

Do you think Black Friday

would put more money

than the Chancellor?

Probably.

Probably.

I suppose it affects everyone,

it's more important.

And Black Friday is just

quite commercialised.

I suppose I'm here shopping!

The Budget is more important, think.

If they get the Budget wrong,

Black Friday doesn't mean anything.

Did they get the Budget wrong?

I think they get it

wrong every year!

What matters more to you,

the Budget or Black Friday?

Black Friday!

Because it's cheaper,

and I got my coat.

Did you look at what

was in the Budget?

No!

# Only boys that save their pennies

# Make my rainy day

# Cos we are living

in a material world...

I just think Black

Friday is a big con.

Do you?

Yes, I do.

Do you think the Budget

was a big con?

Not for me, but for some people.

# And I am a material girl

# Living in a material world...

What puts more money in your pocket,

the Budget or Black Friday?

Probably Black Friday.

Yeah!

Why?

Yeah, a lot of deals

on Black Friday.

More money in your pocket but,

actually, overall, the Budget.

What's more important,

the Budget or Black Friday?

What's the Budget?

Well, it was...

The Chancellor talking about money

and stuff on Wednesday?

Jesus, I'm really rubbish.

Definitely the Budget.

Why's that?

Because I'm not a big shopper.

Did you pay any attention to any

of the bargains being offered

by the Chancellor on Wednesday?

I saw stamp duty got rid of.

But that doesn't apply

to us right now.

And so Black Friday's better?

Yeah.

# A material, a material world...

Well, Black Friday is in

full swing in Leeds.

But shoppers here have

discounted that and say

it is Wednesday's Budget that

matters more to them.

# Living in a material world...

So that's the view from Leeds

on a Budget that self-consciously

tried to target younger voters

with the abolition of stamp duty

for some first time buyers

and extending the young person's

railcard to rail travellers

up to the age of 30.

In June's election,

as subsequent polling revealed,

the Conservatives trailed Labour

by some margin amongst the young.

I use the word "young",

but even those in their 40s

were more likely to vote Labour

than Conservative.

Will the Budget have addressed any

of those problems? Time to turn to

the panel. Zoe, giveaways to the

under 30s, does it make a difference

to the Tories?

The Railcard is

actually quite a bad other, it has a

lot of restrictions. The

shortcomings of the Railcard were

the least bad thing about the idea.

It is so trivial, such a failure to

address what young people are saying

about politics. You know, huge debt

burden is at the end of university,

the impossibility of joining the

housing market. They are talking

about massive, structural changes to

the economy that make different to

our lives. The Conservatives come

back with a Railcard? It is almost

like they are sabotaging themselves.

It wasn't just stamp duty, also

stimulating the market to make more

houses available. Would that have

been noticed by younger voters that

have not been turning to the

Conservatives?

The housing market is

still massively broken, it is not

entirely clear that the

Chancellor's, what he called a £44

billion package, experts said 15

billion or less, if that will fix

the problems and started to bring

down the price of houses, it is not

clear that the housing package will

result in a large number of extra

homes being built. Ultimately, in

the big picture, this was a

forgettable Budget. That is just how

Theresa May and Philip Hammond

pretty much wanted it. They did not

want it to be a Budget that went

down in flames because it was

defeated in the Commons or because

there was a Tory rebellion about

some nefarious tax raising measure.

What it did, worryingly for the

Conservatives, is that it accepted

some of Labour's arguments. It said,

we know that the NHS is a bit

underfunded, so we will give it some

money. We know there is a problem in

the housing market, we will put some

money to that. It accepted some of

Labour's solutions. Because tax

rising it's too hard, we are going

to borrow to get out of the

political problems, make do and mend

the political problem is that there

are. Having gone some way towards

acknowledging the problems and

solutions that Labour offer, they

have a hell of a job trying to

convince people that going whole hog

that Labour suggests is the wrong

answer. That is one of the big

problems they face.

I don't think

the Tories really stand a chance on

this question with younger voters

until they have a change of

leadership, maybe even a couple of

leaders before then. They are only

really going to connect to people

below the age of 45 when those

voters see somebody that does not

look like the identikit concept of a

Tory. There is a trust deficit. The

Tories are regarded by younger

voters as the nasty party.

Earlier

we heard from Mairead McGuinness and

Owen Paterson on the issue of the

Irish border, as the war of words

continues to ramp up.

I am troubled

this morning because I have read a

quote from Arlene Fox, the trade

Secretary, saying that the border

issue will not be solved until the

final stage, until we reach a

decision on trade. I hope that the

United Kingdom is not holding the

Irish situation to ransom. It is far

too serious and far too critical.

It

is very irresponsible politicians to

make a statement like that, saying

they are going to force and

blackmailed the UK into having a

special status for Northern Ireland

outside the rest of the UK. That is

a really dangerous thing to do and

they should stop doing it. There are

perfectly sensible technical

solutions to the problem of the

border.

Let's pick up some of that

with the panel. It was quite

bad-tempered, I have to say, for two

people that are supposed to be the

best of our lives, the UK and Irish

government. The row is heating up?

Yes, feelings are running very high.

There is quite a lot of hype about

this and I don't think it is likely

that the EU will put Ireland in a

position where Ireland has to Beto

moving forward on the trade talks.

-- veto. The solution probably lies

in phase two. What could be

happening, and this is why I think

December is so critical, if there is

not a breakthrough in December, I

think the atmosphere changes and

Britain effectively needs to start

preparing for there being no deal.

It is possible that Emmanuel Macron,

France, being quite difficult with

the British, could use the Irish

argument to say that the 27 is not

satisfied with the progress. I think

at that point, it would be pushing

the British Government too far.

I

basically agree with Ian. I don't

think we need to put on the table a

fully fledged plan for how to deal

with the Irish border. I think what

is going on is a certain amount of

choreography for the Irish in

Brussels and London, so that the

British make clear we are taking

this incredibly seriously. There

needs to be warm words, in the sense

of progress. As Ian says, you can't

have a plan until we know what the

end state relationship with the

European Union is going to be. It

does look like there will be a lot

of talk. I am not sure it will

result in a catastrophic failure in

three weeks' time. However, this

remains possibly the most pivotal

moment in the talks. Theresa May has

to have satisfied the European Union

politically. We will knowing about

two weeks whether she is going to

achieve that or not. If she doesn't,