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SUNDAY POLITICS NIC B735B/02 BRD000000 | 0:00:00 | 0:00:00 | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics. | 2:33:06 | 2:33:09 | |
The delay, fudge and waffle at Stormont needs to stop. | 2:33:09 | 2:33:11 | |
Just one of the messages the Alliance leader David Ford | 2:33:11 | 2:33:14 | |
delivered at his party's annual conference this weekend. | 2:33:14 | 2:33:17 | |
But, with the Assembly election creeping closer, the mood was all about building on | 2:33:17 | 2:33:20 | |
the party's recent success at the polls. | 2:33:20 | 2:33:23 | |
There are potentially half a dozen gains, a number of constituencies where we already hold seats, | 2:33:23 | 2:33:27 | |
where we're looking for extra seats | 2:33:27 | 2:33:29 | |
and seats that we haven't been representing for some time. | 2:33:29 | 2:33:32 | |
Places like North Belfast and East Londonderry where there could be opportunities, as well. | 2:33:32 | 2:33:36 | |
We'll hear the thoughts of the party's deputy leader Naomi Long. | 2:33:36 | 2:33:39 | |
Plus, they've been making their minds up on the EU for the last two weeks. | 2:33:39 | 2:33:43 | |
We'll hear from the Ulster Unionist leader on why he believes we're | 2:33:43 | 2:33:46 | |
better off in Europe than out. | 2:33:46 | 2:33:48 | |
And making sense of all of that and more are my guests of the day, | 2:33:48 | 2:33:51 | |
Professor Deirdre Heenan and columnist Newton Emerson. | 2:33:51 | 2:33:55 | |
Three of Alliance's eight MLAs won't run for the Assembly again, | 2:34:01 | 2:34:05 | |
so the party used its annual conference to put some of its newer | 2:34:05 | 2:34:08 | |
faces in the spotlight. | 2:34:08 | 2:34:09 | |
But the election campaign will also see the return of an Alliance | 2:34:09 | 2:34:12 | |
politician who needs no introduction. | 2:34:12 | 2:34:14 | |
Our Political Correspondent Chris Page was at the conference. | 2:34:14 | 2:34:17 | |
His report contains some flash photography. | 2:34:17 | 2:34:20 | |
She looks glad to be back. Naomi Long is in the political | 2:34:20 | 2:34:24 | |
picture again. | 2:34:24 | 2:34:25 | |
Last year, she won the biggest ever vote by an Alliance candidate | 2:34:25 | 2:34:28 | |
in a Westminster election, but it wasn't | 2:34:28 | 2:34:31 | |
enough to keep her East Belfast seat. | 2:34:31 | 2:34:33 | |
12 months on, she's eyeing up a return to the Assembly. | 2:34:33 | 2:34:36 | |
Her leader is enthusiastic about the prospect. | 2:34:36 | 2:34:41 | |
Let's just say this - I am looking forward | 2:34:41 | 2:34:44 | |
to the Assembly election. | 2:34:44 | 2:34:46 | |
At the start of another five long years, more long service. | 2:34:46 | 2:34:51 | |
APPLAUSE | 2:34:51 | 2:34:52 | |
In his speech, Mr Ford talked about the economy, | 2:34:52 | 2:34:55 | |
legacy issues and the EU referendum. | 2:34:55 | 2:34:57 | |
He said Alliance were the only party working for everyone. | 2:34:57 | 2:35:03 | |
David Ford is a leader who's always had his party fully behind him. | 2:35:03 | 2:35:07 | |
In his 15 years in charge, Alliance have had their first elected MP | 2:35:07 | 2:35:12 | |
and increased their Stormont seats. | 2:35:12 | 2:35:14 | |
They may have lost the Westminster seat last year, but this | 2:35:14 | 2:35:17 | |
conference has been about laying plans to try to take more ground in the Assembly elections. | 2:35:17 | 2:35:22 | |
There are potentially half a dozen gains, a number of constituencies | 2:35:22 | 2:35:26 | |
where we already hold seats, where we're looking for extra seats. | 2:35:26 | 2:35:29 | |
Also seats that we haven't been representing in some time, | 2:35:29 | 2:35:32 | |
like North Belfast and East Londonderry, where there could be opportunities, as well. | 2:35:32 | 2:35:37 | |
Three of the eight current Alliance MLAs won't be standing this time. | 2:35:37 | 2:35:41 | |
Anna Lo is one of them. Will you miss it? | 2:35:41 | 2:35:44 | |
I will miss it, yes. We have a very strong team of candidates. | 2:35:44 | 2:35:50 | |
We have women, young men and I think it's a wonderful team of candidates | 2:35:50 | 2:35:57 | |
to serve Northern Ireland to a better future. | 2:35:57 | 2:36:00 | |
The new candidates were raising their profile at this conference. | 2:36:00 | 2:36:04 | |
I come as a typical Alliance person from a mixed marriage | 2:36:04 | 2:36:07 | |
with a child in integrated education. | 2:36:07 | 2:36:10 | |
Alliance fitted me well and when I joined them, I felt I had come home. | 2:36:10 | 2:36:13 | |
They were people who were not judging me for who I was and where I came from. | 2:36:13 | 2:36:17 | |
I'm offering a new alternative in North Belfast. | 2:36:17 | 2:36:19 | |
I'm positive and that's what Naomi did last year - | 2:36:19 | 2:36:22 | |
a positive election campaign. | 2:36:22 | 2:36:24 | |
She moved forward, despite negative voices. | 2:36:24 | 2:36:26 | |
Her positivity showed that her votes grew. Even though we did lose, | 2:36:26 | 2:36:30 | |
her votes did grow, and that's what I'm going to do in North Belfast - | 2:36:30 | 2:36:33 | |
just positive and show the electorate | 2:36:33 | 2:36:35 | |
what I can offer and what Alliance can offer them. | 2:36:35 | 2:36:37 | |
Change is in the air otherwise, too. | 2:36:37 | 2:36:40 | |
Mr Ford is standing down as Justice Minister in May. | 2:36:40 | 2:36:43 | |
The department of Alliance's other minister | 2:36:43 | 2:36:45 | |
is being abolished, so would he fancy a different portfolio? | 2:36:45 | 2:36:49 | |
Alliance is not simply interested in powers for power's sake | 2:36:49 | 2:36:52 | |
or responsibility for responsibility's sake. | 2:36:52 | 2:36:54 | |
What we're looking to do is advance an agenda. | 2:36:54 | 2:36:57 | |
There are different ways we can do that. | 2:36:57 | 2:36:59 | |
We'll make our judgements after the election and see what is the best way we can do that. | 2:36:59 | 2:37:02 | |
And as for whether the leader might be going into his last election, | 2:37:02 | 2:37:07 | |
Mr Ford is not giving much away, either. | 2:37:07 | 2:37:09 | |
Over 14 years ago, when I became the leader of the party, | 2:37:09 | 2:37:12 | |
I said, "When you want me to go, don't get the men in the grey suits - just tell me." | 2:37:12 | 2:37:16 | |
Nobody's told me yet. | 2:37:16 | 2:37:18 | |
And joining me now is the Alliance Party's deputy leader | 2:37:18 | 2:37:20 | |
Naomi Long. Thanks for joining us. | 2:37:20 | 2:37:22 | |
What are the chances I'll be introducing you this time next year as the party leader? | 2:37:22 | 2:37:26 | |
I think that's a way off and I don't think it's something | 2:37:26 | 2:37:29 | |
I want to be speculating about. | 2:37:29 | 2:37:31 | |
David has said no-one's told him to go and that's right, | 2:37:31 | 2:37:33 | |
and no-one is going to either. | 2:37:33 | 2:37:35 | |
We are very satisfied. He's the most successful leader the party has ever | 2:37:35 | 2:37:38 | |
had and he's a leader we want to hold on to. | 2:37:38 | 2:37:40 | |
He gave you a great puff in his speech yesterday, but he is uncertain | 2:37:40 | 2:37:44 | |
that he will continue as leader in the medium to long-term. | 2:37:44 | 2:37:47 | |
The fact that this issue is now up for public discussion | 2:37:47 | 2:37:50 | |
suggests he doesn't see it as a long-term job. | 2:37:50 | 2:37:53 | |
With all due respect, it's up for public discussion | 2:37:53 | 2:37:56 | |
because people keep asking me the question. | 2:37:56 | 2:37:58 | |
When I said I was coming back to politics, | 2:37:58 | 2:38:00 | |
it was one of the first things people asked me. | 2:38:00 | 2:38:02 | |
The reality is it's not for discussion in the party, | 2:38:02 | 2:38:04 | |
it's not where our focus is - that is on getting a strong team | 2:38:04 | 2:38:07 | |
in the Assembly so we can make a difference to the people | 2:38:07 | 2:38:10 | |
of Northern Ireland. | 2:38:10 | 2:38:11 | |
It's not about the leadership because we're happy with the leadership. | 2:38:11 | 2:38:14 | |
I'm part of that leadership. | 2:38:14 | 2:38:16 | |
Stephen, David and I work together in a collegiate way to make sure that the party has | 2:38:16 | 2:38:20 | |
the most success we can bring. | 2:38:20 | 2:38:21 | |
That is what the party should be about and we're not focused | 2:38:21 | 2:38:25 | |
on leadership, but unfortunately, I think other people outside perhaps are. | 2:38:25 | 2:38:28 | |
You won't be tapping him on the shoulder and suggesting he moves on? | 2:38:28 | 2:38:31 | |
Absolutely not. | 2:38:31 | 2:38:33 | |
Although he might get a call from David Cameron saying, | 2:38:33 | 2:38:35 | |
"You've done a good job for 15 years, you've been Justice Minister for six, | 2:38:35 | 2:38:38 | |
"how about a seat in the House of Lords?" That'd take it out of your hands. | 2:38:38 | 2:38:41 | |
It wouldn't, because you can sit in the House of Lords, as Maurice Morrow does, | 2:38:41 | 2:38:45 | |
and still sit in the Assembly, so it would make no difference. | 2:38:45 | 2:38:48 | |
David has been on record about his view of going into the Lords | 2:38:48 | 2:38:50 | |
for a long time, so I don't think he'll be getting too many taps on the shoulder at all. | 2:38:50 | 2:38:55 | |
In the short-term, his leadership depends on the party's performance | 2:38:55 | 2:38:58 | |
in May's Assembly election - what is the best you can hope for? | 2:38:58 | 2:39:03 | |
It's not about the best we can hope for. What we want to do is build | 2:39:03 | 2:39:07 | |
a team that is strong in the Assembly, we want a mandate | 2:39:07 | 2:39:09 | |
so we can make a choice about going into | 2:39:09 | 2:39:12 | |
government and then we will be in a position to use the influence | 2:39:12 | 2:39:15 | |
that we are given by the people of Northern Ireland to make progress | 2:39:15 | 2:39:18 | |
on their behalf, either in government or outside of government, | 2:39:18 | 2:39:21 | |
because both of those options will be open to us beyond May. | 2:39:21 | 2:39:24 | |
It is about growing your numbers in Stormont. | 2:39:24 | 2:39:27 | |
You have six at the moment. You're losing three well-known faces. | 2:39:27 | 2:39:31 | |
David Ford, in that report, talked about the possibility of six more seats on offer. | 2:39:31 | 2:39:35 | |
That would bring you to 14. Is that the target you're looking for? | 2:39:35 | 2:39:38 | |
I have no limit in terms of the ambition of what we want to do. | 2:39:38 | 2:39:41 | |
We have seen in other cases where we have surprised people - | 2:39:41 | 2:39:44 | |
not just with the Westminster seat, but in places | 2:39:44 | 2:39:46 | |
like South Down, where people told us we couldn't make any inroads | 2:39:46 | 2:39:49 | |
and we had two councillors elected. | 2:39:49 | 2:39:51 | |
There are surprise results in elections and I'm | 2:39:51 | 2:39:54 | |
not writing off any constituency at this point in time. | 2:39:54 | 2:39:57 | |
Ultimately, elections are the only time when the voters can really make | 2:39:57 | 2:40:00 | |
a difference and it doesn't matter where they are in Northern Ireland - | 2:40:00 | 2:40:03 | |
if they vote Alliance, it can count towards the Assembly, and more than that, | 2:40:03 | 2:40:07 | |
even if they don't elect an Assembly member, it can | 2:40:07 | 2:40:10 | |
make a difference in terms of our mandate to be in the executive. | 2:40:10 | 2:40:14 | |
Stephen Farry is a minister not because of the number of seats we have, | 2:40:14 | 2:40:17 | |
but because of the number of votes we polled. | 2:40:17 | 2:40:20 | |
Every vote in this election counts. | 2:40:20 | 2:40:22 | |
You are limited by what is realistically achievable | 2:40:22 | 2:40:26 | |
and you have had some success. | 2:40:26 | 2:40:28 | |
You won East Belfast and then lost it again. | 2:40:28 | 2:40:30 | |
You went from six MLAs 1998 to eight today, an increase in share in Assembly | 2:40:30 | 2:40:35 | |
from 6.5% to 7.7. It's not seismic growth - it's modest. | 2:40:35 | 2:40:39 | |
It'd be fair to say we did that in one of the most difficult | 2:40:39 | 2:40:42 | |
conditions that a party would have to fight elections, | 2:40:42 | 2:40:45 | |
with flag protests and other things going on. | 2:40:45 | 2:40:48 | |
There was a real pressure on us and we managed to grow our vote, so we need to be realistic, | 2:40:48 | 2:40:54 | |
but I'm not going to be pessimistic. | 2:40:54 | 2:40:57 | |
I sat in many studios in 2009 and was told | 2:40:57 | 2:41:01 | |
I couldn't possibly be the MP for East Belfast, | 2:41:01 | 2:41:03 | |
that that wasn't being realistic, but that was wrong. | 2:41:03 | 2:41:06 | |
I was told after 2010 we'd reached a high water mark, but we got 4,000 | 2:41:06 | 2:41:10 | |
more votes in East Belfast last year. | 2:41:10 | 2:41:12 | |
It wasn't enough to take the seat, but what it does show is that it's not a flash in the pan, | 2:41:12 | 2:41:17 | |
that we were actually making a difference and the people in that constituency are making | 2:41:17 | 2:41:22 | |
a choice for change. | 2:41:22 | 2:41:23 | |
What we do know about David Ford's future, because he has been clear | 2:41:23 | 2:41:26 | |
about this, is he will not be the Justice Minister | 2:41:26 | 2:41:29 | |
again if that falls to the Alliance Party. | 2:41:29 | 2:41:32 | |
Do you think your party should put itself up for that ministry | 2:41:32 | 2:41:35 | |
again after May? | 2:41:35 | 2:41:38 | |
I have to look back at why we took it in the first place. | 2:41:38 | 2:41:41 | |
It was an opportunity to see devolution sustained | 2:41:41 | 2:41:44 | |
and brought forward. It was an opportunity to see real progress in Northern Ireland | 2:41:44 | 2:41:47 | |
and to do reform. | 2:41:47 | 2:41:49 | |
If we are going to talk about that - and we haven't been offered the post yet, | 2:41:49 | 2:41:52 | |
so we're not a position to accept | 2:41:52 | 2:41:54 | |
or decline because it hasn't been offered - | 2:41:54 | 2:41:56 | |
but if we're going to do that again, it would have to be on the same | 2:41:56 | 2:41:59 | |
basis that we believe that there will be progress possible, | 2:41:59 | 2:42:01 | |
that the executive will be delivering for the people of Northern Ireland. | 2:42:01 | 2:42:05 | |
That will depend on the programme for government. | 2:42:05 | 2:42:07 | |
We want a mandate to be in those negotiations, to use our | 2:42:07 | 2:42:10 | |
influence to get the best possible outcome for the people of Northern Ireland, but we will not commit | 2:42:10 | 2:42:14 | |
ourselves to take any post in an executive beyond these | 2:42:14 | 2:42:18 | |
elections unless we are satisfied that | 2:42:18 | 2:42:21 | |
that executive will deliver real progress. | 2:42:21 | 2:42:23 | |
You are saying there is a place called opposition for the Alliance Party. | 2:42:23 | 2:42:27 | |
When I was in the Assembly, we were in opposition and I was part of that opposition. | 2:42:27 | 2:42:32 | |
-It's more formalised this time. -Of course. | 2:42:32 | 2:42:35 | |
Nevertheless, what we want to do is use our influence to its maximum benefit. | 2:42:35 | 2:42:41 | |
If we believe we can do that in government, then that's where we want to be. | 2:42:41 | 2:42:45 | |
If we believe we can do that outside of government, we'll not be afraid to do it. | 2:42:45 | 2:42:48 | |
As Steven said, this is not about power for power's sake. | 2:42:48 | 2:42:51 | |
This is about using your influence to be | 2:42:51 | 2:42:54 | |
able to deliver for people. | 2:42:54 | 2:42:56 | |
That is what it has to be about if politics is to engage the public. | 2:42:56 | 2:43:00 | |
You've had difficulties with policy goals that have not been delivered | 2:43:00 | 2:43:04 | |
because they've been blocked by other parties - for example, | 2:43:04 | 2:43:07 | |
the St Mary's College issue, the issue about fatal foetal abnormality. | 2:43:07 | 2:43:11 | |
There have been tensions between the Alliance Party and other parties. | 2:43:11 | 2:43:15 | |
Doesn't that suggest that you might be better in an oppositional role, calling other parties to account? | 2:43:15 | 2:43:21 | |
We have to balance that against what we have been able to achieve in terms of our agenda. | 2:43:21 | 2:43:26 | |
We have seen peace walls removed, too, in North Belfast. | 2:43:26 | 2:43:30 | |
Removed under a Justice Minister that Alliance was able to provide and he gave that leadership. | 2:43:30 | 2:43:34 | |
We have been able to look at what Steven has been able to do in terms of developing further education - | 2:43:34 | 2:43:40 | |
changing it from being a Cinderella sector into something that people value. | 2:43:40 | 2:43:44 | |
We have to balance what we weren't able to do against what we have been | 2:43:44 | 2:43:47 | |
able to achieve and that's the decision we'll need to make in the next five years. | 2:43:47 | 2:43:51 | |
Are we better placed to deliver in the executive, or outside of it? | 2:43:51 | 2:43:55 | |
But first we need a mandate to be there and that is what we're focused on right now. | 2:43:55 | 2:43:59 | |
We will watch with interest. Naomi Long, thank you for joining us. | 2:43:59 | 2:44:05 | |
Let's have a word with my guests of the day, Deirdre Heenan and Newton Emerson. | 2:44:05 | 2:44:10 | |
Deirdre, your thoughts on the journey ahead for Alliance. | 2:44:10 | 2:44:13 | |
I think Naomi is right. The next five years are crucial for the Alliance Party. | 2:44:13 | 2:44:18 | |
Remembering that their best votes were in the early '70s. | 2:44:18 | 2:44:21 | |
I think they have a number of key decisions to make. In the short-term, | 2:44:21 | 2:44:25 | |
they need to get votes, seats, power and that | 2:44:25 | 2:44:28 | |
should be the short-term objective, but long-term, they need to think, | 2:44:28 | 2:44:31 | |
are they going to be a party for Northern Ireland? | 2:44:31 | 2:44:34 | |
So they're saying it's largely irrelevant in the west, because they don't have candidates | 2:44:34 | 2:44:38 | |
in many constituencies, but they have broken through that | 2:44:38 | 2:44:41 | |
idea that they're just for the middle classes. | 2:44:41 | 2:44:43 | |
They are making gains in North Belfast, in East Belfast. | 2:44:43 | 2:44:47 | |
Another big questions for them is are they just there to prop up a dysfunctional executive? | 2:44:47 | 2:44:52 | |
To take jobs that the grand coalitions can't agree on? | 2:44:52 | 2:44:55 | |
Or are they going to be in opposition and able to say, "We don't agree with | 2:44:55 | 2:44:58 | |
"this government, we are making clear blue water between us and them"? Very difficult. | 2:44:58 | 2:45:04 | |
Newton, on the issue of potential leadership in the future, | 2:45:04 | 2:45:07 | |
it's understandable that Naomi Long doesn't want to be drawn on that, | 2:45:07 | 2:45:10 | |
that people should want to draw her on that and she accepts that. | 2:45:10 | 2:45:14 | |
Where do you stand? | 2:45:14 | 2:45:15 | |
Is it inevitable that David Ford will continue to lead the party | 2:45:15 | 2:45:18 | |
in the short-term but not the long-term? | 2:45:18 | 2:45:20 | |
Once this conversation starts in public, it's obvious the ground | 2:45:20 | 2:45:25 | |
is being laid for some kind of succession. | 2:45:25 | 2:45:27 | |
I think you can assume that will happen in the medium-term. | 2:45:27 | 2:45:30 | |
Sparing the blushes of Naomi Long, will it be inevitable that she will be his successor? | 2:45:30 | 2:45:35 | |
She is his anointed successor, having given a speech where he talked | 2:45:35 | 2:45:39 | |
about five long years - whether that comes to pass we can't | 2:45:39 | 2:45:43 | |
say, but, yes, that is part of the ground that is obviously being laid. | 2:45:43 | 2:45:47 | |
Yesterday at conference, it was obvious the ground was being laid. | 2:45:47 | 2:45:50 | |
What is clear is Naomi wants to have a mandate before she becomes leader. | 2:45:50 | 2:45:54 | |
It is difficult to be leader sitting in Westminster. | 2:45:54 | 2:45:57 | |
There was a chance she would lose the seat - she did. | 2:45:57 | 2:45:59 | |
In a year's time, when she has a mandate, she will be the leader. | 2:45:59 | 2:46:02 | |
Newton, on the issue of taking a position or positions in the new executive | 2:46:02 | 2:46:08 | |
after May, or having an oppositional role, | 2:46:08 | 2:46:10 | |
what do you think the call might be? | 2:46:10 | 2:46:13 | |
I think if you look at the last mandate while justice was worth taking | 2:46:13 | 2:46:17 | |
on its own to deliver devolution, nothing really was extracted from that, in fact. | 2:46:17 | 2:46:22 | |
Quite apart from the cohesion sharing and integration strategy | 2:46:22 | 2:46:25 | |
that the Alliance had been promised, we ended up with shared education. | 2:46:25 | 2:46:29 | |
I know the nuclear option of pulling down the executive is not | 2:46:29 | 2:46:32 | |
Alliance's cup of tea, but they didn't use the leverage they had. | 2:46:32 | 2:46:36 | |
OK. We'll talk to you both a bit later. For now, thank you very much. | 2:46:36 | 2:46:39 | |
Let's pause for a look back at the political week in 60 seconds | 2:46:39 | 2:46:43 | |
with Chris Page. | 2:46:43 | 2:46:46 | |
The national Brexit debate came to Northern Ireland. | 2:46:51 | 2:46:53 | |
David Cameron and Boris Johnson hit the campaign trail. | 2:46:53 | 2:46:57 | |
Basil McCrea vowed to rebuild his political career - | 2:46:57 | 2:47:00 | |
a Stormont watchdog cleared him of allegations | 2:47:00 | 2:47:02 | |
of sexual misconduct and inappropriate behaviour. | 2:47:02 | 2:47:05 | |
The values and principles of what NI21 stood for | 2:47:05 | 2:47:08 | |
I think resonated with the people and will still resonate. | 2:47:08 | 2:47:12 | |
I stand having been totally vindicated by a review | 2:47:12 | 2:47:17 | |
of the commissioner and my peers. | 2:47:17 | 2:47:19 | |
Labour members here called on the party's ruling body to allow | 2:47:19 | 2:47:23 | |
candidates to run in elections. | 2:47:23 | 2:47:25 | |
The Culture Minister left the committee investigating safety issues at Casement Park. | 2:47:26 | 2:47:31 | |
She questioned why she been asked to take an oath | 2:47:31 | 2:47:33 | |
when other witnesses hadn't. | 2:47:33 | 2:47:35 | |
-Could you please sit down? -I've made clear, I am not coming back | 2:47:35 | 2:47:39 | |
to answer questions unless you clarify the decision for an oath. | 2:47:39 | 2:47:42 | |
Thank you. | 2:47:42 | 2:47:43 | |
And the last of the double jobbers left the Stormont stage. | 2:47:43 | 2:47:46 | |
Gregory Campbell chose to remain an MP. | 2:47:46 | 2:47:50 | |
Chris Page reporting. | 2:47:56 | 2:47:58 | |
So the Ulster Unionist Party has decided that remaining | 2:47:58 | 2:48:01 | |
in the European Union is better for Northern Ireland than leaving it. | 2:48:01 | 2:48:04 | |
But the party says it respects that individual members may vote to leave in the June referendum. | 2:48:04 | 2:48:09 | |
We'll hear from party leader Mike Nesbitt in a moment, | 2:48:09 | 2:48:11 | |
but first the Go roadshow came to Belfast on Friday night. | 2:48:11 | 2:48:14 | |
Politicians from across the political spectrum campaigning | 2:48:14 | 2:48:17 | |
to leave the EU gathered in the Titanic Quarter. | 2:48:17 | 2:48:20 | |
Ukip leader Nigel Farage said he wants to talk to ordinary people. | 2:48:20 | 2:48:24 | |
The remarkable thing about Grassroots Out is we're bringing people together | 2:48:24 | 2:48:27 | |
from across the political spectrum - people in the centre, the right, | 2:48:27 | 2:48:31 | |
people on the left - this is the most inclusive attempt | 2:48:31 | 2:48:34 | |
that's ever been made in British politics. | 2:48:34 | 2:48:37 | |
The fact that quite a large group of Conservatives don't want to come | 2:48:37 | 2:48:41 | |
with us - although some of them are here - that is a shame, but, look, | 2:48:41 | 2:48:45 | |
it's the same for the other side. | 2:48:45 | 2:48:47 | |
This question of the European Union, whether we | 2:48:47 | 2:48:50 | |
should be brave enough to take back our independence, | 2:48:50 | 2:48:53 | |
it is bigger than party politics. This isn't about left and right, | 2:48:53 | 2:48:56 | |
it's about right and wrong as far as I'm concerned, | 2:48:56 | 2:48:59 | |
so, actually, this will divide political parties, | 2:48:59 | 2:49:02 | |
it'll divide families all over the United Kingdom. | 2:49:02 | 2:49:05 | |
It is an issue that excites genuine passion. | 2:49:05 | 2:49:10 | |
We will talk to ordinary people for whom, | 2:49:10 | 2:49:12 | |
probably, politics isn't a big part of their lives, but they're facing | 2:49:12 | 2:49:16 | |
the biggest decision that they've got to make in their lifetimes | 2:49:16 | 2:49:19 | |
and I want to say to them, all the scare stories they've heard over the last couple of weeks, | 2:49:19 | 2:49:23 | |
from David Cameron downwards, are rubbish. | 2:49:23 | 2:49:25 | |
All we're saying is we want to get back to be a normal self-governing | 2:49:25 | 2:49:30 | |
nation that makes its own laws and crucially controls its own borders. | 2:49:30 | 2:49:35 | |
Nigel Farage. And the Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt is with me. | 2:49:35 | 2:49:39 | |
Hello. What persuaded you in the end that it's better to remain than to leave? | 2:49:39 | 2:49:43 | |
The three big areas are the money, the border and the future | 2:49:43 | 2:49:47 | |
of the United Kingdom and it's clear that | 2:49:47 | 2:49:50 | |
Nicola Sturgeon sees a Brexit vote | 2:49:50 | 2:49:52 | |
as an opportunity to press a button | 2:49:52 | 2:49:54 | |
for a second referendum on Scottish independence. | 2:49:54 | 2:49:56 | |
It may not be the only opportunity she sees, but it's the obvious one | 2:49:56 | 2:50:00 | |
and, as a Unionist leader, I'm not putting my fingerprints on that button. | 2:50:00 | 2:50:04 | |
In terms of the border, it was clear when we spoke to the Prime Minister | 2:50:04 | 2:50:07 | |
there won't be a hard border in this island - | 2:50:07 | 2:50:10 | |
nobody's going to build a Donald Trump-like wall, but there will have to be | 2:50:10 | 2:50:13 | |
a hard border and it will take us back to the '70s. | 2:50:13 | 2:50:16 | |
It'll be at Stranraer and Cairnryan and Gatwick and Heathrow. | 2:50:16 | 2:50:19 | |
We will become, to a certain extent, internal exiles. | 2:50:19 | 2:50:23 | |
And on the money... | 2:50:23 | 2:50:25 | |
I offered anybody in the room yesterday a pen | 2:50:25 | 2:50:27 | |
and said, "If you can financially underwrite and guarantee no farmer | 2:50:27 | 2:50:31 | |
"will lose out, no voluntary or community sector worker will lose | 2:50:31 | 2:50:34 | |
"their job because of the end of European money, | 2:50:34 | 2:50:37 | |
"sign that form and that will influence my thinking." | 2:50:37 | 2:50:41 | |
Nobody was prepared to take the pen. | 2:50:41 | 2:50:43 | |
I wonder, does that mean you will play your part | 2:50:43 | 2:50:45 | |
in what Boris Johnson calls Project Fear? I suspect that people who take | 2:50:45 | 2:50:49 | |
a different view to yours, having listened to what you just said, | 2:50:49 | 2:50:53 | |
would say you're playing the fear card. | 2:50:53 | 2:50:55 | |
We had a very intense debate yesterday - over | 2:50:55 | 2:50:57 | |
three hours. What pleased me was the quality of the debate. | 2:50:57 | 2:51:00 | |
-Was it unanimous, the decision? -99%. | 2:51:00 | 2:51:03 | |
One dissenting voice out of around 100, and some people spoke | 2:51:03 | 2:51:08 | |
passionately about Brexit - the reasons why we should come out | 2:51:08 | 2:51:12 | |
and we dealt with each and every one of them. | 2:51:12 | 2:51:15 | |
Jim Nicholson, your MEP, does he have a vote? | 2:51:15 | 2:51:18 | |
-Yes. -He's for staying? | 2:51:18 | 2:51:22 | |
Yes, there were about 100 people in the room. | 2:51:22 | 2:51:25 | |
I thought one person coughed. We checked - one person was against. | 2:51:25 | 2:51:29 | |
Do you know who that was? | 2:51:29 | 2:51:30 | |
-Yes, I do. -You're not going to tell me? | 2:51:30 | 2:51:34 | |
I don't want the media tents parked on his lawn. | 2:51:34 | 2:51:37 | |
-Was that an elected representative? -No. -A party member, but not an elected representative. | 2:51:37 | 2:51:43 | |
Will elected representatives be expected to campaign for the UK to remain, | 2:51:43 | 2:51:51 | |
or will they be allowed to campaign to leave? | 2:51:51 | 2:51:53 | |
Yes, but I didn't sense any MLA, of the MPs or the MEP, being for Brexit, | 2:51:53 | 2:52:00 | |
so there may be some elected councillors who will be for Brexit | 2:52:00 | 2:52:03 | |
and they're perfectly entitled to take their view. | 2:52:03 | 2:52:06 | |
You wouldn't expect them to follow the party line in public, as elected representatives? | 2:52:06 | 2:52:10 | |
-Everybody is free to do their own thing. -Is that wise? -There was incredible consensus. | 2:52:10 | 2:52:14 | |
When I took the party leadership, people said to me, the two things that will spit the executive, | 2:52:14 | 2:52:19 | |
are in and out of the executive and in and out of Europe. | 2:52:19 | 2:52:21 | |
We were unanimous about coming out of the Northern Ireland executive | 2:52:21 | 2:52:25 | |
and we got to 99-point-something percent on Europe. | 2:52:25 | 2:52:27 | |
I like my sporting analogies - that was a four-try bonus win. | 2:52:27 | 2:52:32 | |
OK. What about being on the opposite side of the fence to the DUP and the TUV? | 2:52:32 | 2:52:36 | |
-Unionism is divided on this issue. -It is divided. | 2:52:36 | 2:52:39 | |
There was very little chat over the course of the 3, 3½ hours | 2:52:39 | 2:52:43 | |
about the fact that this positions us differently from other parties | 2:52:43 | 2:52:46 | |
and what it means in terms of the election. | 2:52:46 | 2:52:49 | |
It was a really mature debate we had about doing the right thing for Northern Ireland. | 2:52:49 | 2:52:53 | |
What do you say to those who claim that if the UK Exchequer | 2:52:53 | 2:52:56 | |
was to be spared having to pay huge amounts of money | 2:52:56 | 2:53:01 | |
into the EU's coffers, that money could be spent | 2:53:01 | 2:53:05 | |
without all of the downside of EU red tape on the difficult issues | 2:53:05 | 2:53:08 | |
-we have here in Northern Ireland? That's the argument they put onto the table. -Two quick points. | 2:53:08 | 2:53:14 | |
Take a look at the electoral map of the United Kingdom. | 2:53:14 | 2:53:16 | |
David Cameron is a head of a Conservative Party, | 2:53:16 | 2:53:19 | |
which is a South-of-England party, so if you think the realpolitik is the money coming back | 2:53:19 | 2:53:24 | |
from Brussels will come to Northern Ireland, think again. | 2:53:24 | 2:53:26 | |
If we do come out, do you really think the 27 members who remain will sit down and say, | 2:53:26 | 2:53:30 | |
"Let's give the United Kingdom more favourable trading conditions than we have for ourselves"? | 2:53:30 | 2:53:35 | |
-It would be worse? -It would be worse. -OK. | 2:53:35 | 2:53:37 | |
It will be interesting to see how this pans out over the next 3½ months. Thanks very much indeed. | 2:53:37 | 2:53:42 | |
Let's hear a final few thoughts from Newton and Deirdre. | 2:53:42 | 2:53:45 | |
Does that decision on the part of the UUP surprise you, or was that as you expected? | 2:53:45 | 2:53:50 | |
I'm surprised by how decisive the decision has been. | 2:53:50 | 2:53:54 | |
But once you take a decision in politics, | 2:53:54 | 2:53:57 | |
you have to jump in with both feet, you don't want to look like a waiver. | 2:53:57 | 2:54:01 | |
Whether you regard it as right or wrong, backing it to the hilt is the correct thing to do. | 2:54:01 | 2:54:05 | |
Whether you regard it as right or wrong, Mike Nesbitt is very clear that that is the decision | 2:54:05 | 2:54:09 | |
and he is making that case today. | 2:54:09 | 2:54:10 | |
He is, and I think it's a smart political move. | 2:54:10 | 2:54:13 | |
Not entirely unexpected. The DUP are uncomfortable, | 2:54:13 | 2:54:16 | |
they are setting their face against their natural allies and business, ignoring the evidence. | 2:54:16 | 2:54:21 | |
To date, the Brexit debate in Northern Ireland has been | 2:54:21 | 2:54:24 | |
a prolonged exercise in missing the point. | 2:54:24 | 2:54:26 | |
A get-out-of-jail-free card, we're told - we can keep all the things we like and all those pesky | 2:54:26 | 2:54:31 | |
bureaucrats in Brussels will leave us alone. We know that to be nonsense. | 2:54:31 | 2:54:36 | |
The reality is the European Union is part of the warp and weave of political life in Northern Ireland. | 2:54:36 | 2:54:40 | |
It's not just about the money, it's about the culture and the broader issues. | 2:54:40 | 2:54:44 | |
How much, Newton, do you think this is about the Ulster Unionist putting | 2:54:44 | 2:54:48 | |
clear water between themselves on this issue and the DUP? | 2:54:48 | 2:54:52 | |
Well, as the DUP has not established clear water itself, it is a clever move. | 2:54:52 | 2:54:58 | |
It is campaigning to leave. | 2:54:58 | 2:55:00 | |
It is, but it is not... It is taking a position of leaving, but will not actively campaign for it. | 2:55:00 | 2:55:06 | |
It has tried to nuance its position. | 2:55:06 | 2:55:08 | |
It's clear that some big beasts within the DUP are going to campaign to leave. | 2:55:08 | 2:55:12 | |
Which is why the leadership is not going to agitate around an opposite | 2:55:12 | 2:55:18 | |
position, but they are quite clearly trying to keep a lid on it, | 2:55:18 | 2:55:21 | |
so to take any position by the UUP effectively needles the DUP. | 2:55:21 | 2:55:25 | |
It's good that it has moved away from the orange and green of politics, | 2:55:25 | 2:55:28 | |
we're not having blocks in both areas. | 2:55:28 | 2:55:31 | |
There is a debate within Unionism about where we are best and what is best for Northern Ireland. | 2:55:31 | 2:55:36 | |
It will be fascinating. | 2:55:36 | 2:55:38 | |
It is, but I find myself as someone who is a wavering | 2:55:38 | 2:55:43 | |
voter that nobody is coming up with arguments that I find persuasive on either side. | 2:55:43 | 2:55:47 | |
That's what makes it all so interesting. | 2:55:47 | 2:55:50 | |
Thank you, both, very much indeed. Thanks to Mike Nesbitt. | 2:55:50 | 2:55:53 | |
That's it for Sunday Politics for this week. | 2:55:53 | 2:55:55 | |
Join me for Stormont Today - that's on BBC Two at 11.15 tomorrow night, | 2:55:55 | 2:55:58 | |
but for now, from everyone on the team, thanks for watching. Bye-bye. | 2:55:58 | 2:56:01 |