07/02/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


07/02/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew's guests include MPs Eric Pickles and Stephen Kinnock, and George Galloway.


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Transcript


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Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

We finally know what David Cameron wants

:00:41.:00:42.

as he attempts to reform our relationship with the EU.

:00:43.:00:45.

Does it deliver on his promises - and will it be enough to convince

:00:46.:00:49.

and most of us can't name our MEP.

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Is there a democratic crisis in the EU?

:00:56.:00:58.

Former Respect MP George Galloway and Labour's Stephen Kinnock go

:00:59.:01:02.

Jeremy Corbyn has plenty of new grassroots support.

:01:03.:01:08.

But is Labour facing a cash crisis thanks to a loss of money from big

:01:09.:01:12.

donors, taxpayers and Government plans to restrict union funding?

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It is an affront on British democracy.

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And coming up here... agreement which changed the funding

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Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood on dealing with the past.

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And we look at the state of the parties at the end of week

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one in the Republic's general election campaign.

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about his priorities these last two years?

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And joining me as always, three journalists who've got more

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opinions than the campaign to leave the EU has splinter groups.

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Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

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We'll see if they're still on speaking terms by the end

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Let's start today by talking about what the Government in England

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is or isn't going to do about a sugar tax.

:02:05.:02:06.

Health experts have been calling for one, to tackle

:02:07.:02:08.

is a crisis in child obesity - but so far ministers

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Well, this morning the celebrity chef Jamie Oliver said

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to "get ninja" to force the Government to act.

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Here's the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, responding

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on The Andrew Marr Show this morning.

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It has to be a game changing moment, a robust strategy.

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The issue here is, do what it takes to make sure

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that children consume less sugar, because we have got

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We are the most obese nation in the EU

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Well, we are going to be announcing in due course -

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David Cameron has said, if it isn't a sugar tax,

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it needs to be something that is equally robust.

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But he hasn't taken a sugar tax off the table.

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Will there be a sugar tax? His instinct is to say no, I do not want

:03:02.:03:08.

to run the nanny state that Jeremy Hunt says his one-year-old daughter,

:03:09.:03:14.

by the time she is an adult, one third of the population will be

:03:15.:03:19.

clinically obese and Public Health England shows if you introduce a

:03:20.:03:23.

sugar tax, you will reduce that some Jeremy Hunt is in favour but the

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Prime Minister is inching towards some decision, whether that is a

:03:29.:03:33.

sugar tax or not... Regional and devolved governments, Wales has been

:03:34.:03:45.

very keen on that. I feel I am at liberty to say this but Scotland

:03:46.:03:49.

also has greater tax-raising powers so he could get outflanked. Or wait

:03:50.:03:56.

and see how it does in Scotland and Wales and then decide to follow?

:03:57.:04:03.

Yes. I want to make the liberal case against this but that ship has

:04:04.:04:09.

sailed decades ago, we tax alcohol and tobacco and this is more like a

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revenue raiser because that isn't -- a justifiable cause, we have a

:04:19.:04:24.

population with a sweet tooth that you can hit the revenue. That is the

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reasoning to deal with rather than the more censorious reason of

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monitoring behaviour. And junior doctors, scheduled to be back on

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strike on Wednesday in England, which means that some of the talks

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so far have failed? There is bad feeling but as Andrew Marr was

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saying, the turnout on the vote was very high, and the 8%. The

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government is really struggling to shake this debate and it is

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interesting with that interview, Jeremy Hunt has said until now that

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the cost of the new contract would be revenue neutral, he now admits

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there would not only be a transitional cost but longer term

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and the government is really struggling on this. It is not affect

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emergency services this time. It was a big week for

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David Cameron's renegotiation He once promised a fundamental

:05:24.:05:25.

change in that relationship as a condition for backing

:05:26.:05:29.

the campaign to stay in. Well, there are changes -

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but perhaps not quite as fundamental And what he has achieved still needs

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to be agreed by EU leaders at a summit in a fortnight's

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time, where it could be But Mr Cameron says what he's

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achieved is so significant that if Britain was not an EU member,

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this would make him want to join. Here he is speaking

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earlier in the week. I can say, hand on heart,

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I've delivered the commitments that I made in my manifesto,

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and I think the whole country knows that if you, for instance,

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pay people ?5,000, ?10,000 additional to their wages,

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then that is a draw to Britain, and that's one of

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the reasons why we've seen such high levels

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of migration and movement. So David Cameron says it lives up

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to everything that was promised in the Conservative

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election manifesto. I'm joined by former Cabinet

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minister Eric Pickles. Welcome back. You said this week the

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Prime Minister has kept to the letter and spirit of his manifesto

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promise. Let us look at what this promise. The manifesto said we will

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insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit

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must live here and contribute to the economy for a minimum of four years.

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The emergency rig on tax credits does not achieve that? -- brake. You

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must bear in mind the things we can do through domestic law, a

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job-seeker from Europe who cannot find a job within six months, you

:07:05.:07:09.

are obliged to leave and that has been achieved through domestic law.

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The manifesto promised no in work benefits until you have been here

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for four years. The reality is graduated, they rise, and after four

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years you get the full benefit? That is not unreasonable. After four

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years to get full benefit but we know that the criteria for putting

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on the brake for four years has already been passed and the largest

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political party in the EU agrees that has happened and we should have

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this in place after the next referendum. It will have to be

:07:52.:07:56.

approved by the European Parliament and the other 27 members and what

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constitution, emergency, the cost to migrants is five billion pounds

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every year, we are 1.6 5 trillion economy, public spending is 750

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billion pounds. Why is ?500 million and emergency, only 1.6% of the

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bill? My earlier answer was, we already know the political leader of

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the largest political party in the Parliament of Europe has said it is

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the fact that we have arrived at those conditions and an emergency

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brake will be placed. What emergency? It is an emergency in the

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views of the European partners, they have accrued -- agreed to this

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emergency brake but in terms have the mechanism of Britain future for

:08:59.:09:01.

other countries, that will be decided over the next two weeks but

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what we do know as far as the UK is concerned, we will get that

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emergency brake. If a migrant Eilidh Child lives abroad, they should

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receive no child tax credit or benefit, no matter how long they

:09:22.:09:24.

have worked in the UK or how much tax they have paid. There it is. The

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sentiment does not deliver on that either? What it does deliver is

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harmonisation of benefits so the level of benefits will be exactly

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the same as it would be in their own country. You are going to have 28

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different levels of child benefit! In many cases it can be as much as

:09:51.:09:55.

the quarter. And in some cases, more? Not many people to pay the

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same level that we don't but the point I was making is that in Poland

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it is a quarter of the level as it is here. You promised no child

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benefit for migrants and you're delivering index linked child

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benefit for migrants? It is a big improvement on the current

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situation. When you go into negotiation, but do precisely that

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and I think it is within the spirit of what we said. The manifesto said

:10:31.:10:36.

that you will control migration from the European Union by reforming

:10:37.:10:42.

welfare rolls and Mr Cameron at one stage said that reducing immigration

:10:43.:10:48.

from the European Union would be at the heart of this. Can you give us

:10:49.:10:53.

an idea of how much these changes will reduce European Union

:10:54.:10:59.

migration? I am not part of the negotiating team so all I can go

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wrong is what I have seen in newspapers and given that we know

:11:04.:11:10.

that in work benefits, 40% of new arrivals are supported by that and

:11:11.:11:15.

given that the average is ?6,000 in addition and can be as much as

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?10,000, it will have an effect. You said 40% but that is not the figure,

:11:23.:11:26.

we know from the Freedom of Information release that if there

:11:27.:11:31.

had been any emergency brake in the last four years it would have

:11:32.:11:36.

affected 84,000 families. That is it, not 40%. I said that 40% of the

:11:37.:11:43.

new immigrants that, in, new migrants, claiming in work benefit,

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you are comparing apples and pears? I am not. 80,000 families is nowhere

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near 40%. Last year, 180,000 net migration from the EU. Do you have

:12:00.:12:06.

any idea by how much the figure will be reduced as a result of the

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settlement? Were not trying to prevent people living inside the

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European Union, we are trying to stop people coming for something for

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nothing, to claim from our innovative system and secondly, to

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ensure there is an equalisation inside the market of people coming

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here just because of our in work benefits. Since this will apply only

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to new migrants and not those that are already here, is unlikely to be

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a rush to come in before these restrictions in? And the figure

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could rise? As part of the negotiations we have to ensure that

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doesn't happen. We would have two ask as part of the negotiation... To

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ensure that there isn't this new influx. In the manifesto you also

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said that we want national partners to be able to work together to block

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unwanted European legislation. In the Lisbon Treaty there is an orange

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card system that does that and we have the red card with Mr Cameron,

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is this an improvement? The Orange card has been used twice. That was

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yellow, orange has never been used. I beg your pardon. It is confusing!

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How many different cards? Three, yellow and orange and this red card.

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In what way would the red card be any improvement on the existing

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Orange card, which means 51% of national parliaments can make the

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commission rethink? We can move much quicker in terms of trying to knock

:13:58.:14:03.

out any deal between European Parliaments and secondly, national

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parliaments are becoming much more assertive in terms of their session

:14:09.:14:15.

and that is a massively important step in the re-establishment in the

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importance of national parliaments. It is not just our Parliament, we

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would need to get 56% of national parliaments, at least 15 others, and

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in many cases we would only have 12 weeks to ask them to vote against

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the policy of their own national government. That is not credible? Of

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course it is. I think this is a very important step on the way of

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ensuring national parliaments are much more assertive and don't

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forget, read this in line of stopping them moving towards ever

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closer union and protecting sterling. Let us look at that. It

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was meant to be one of the big wins for the Prime Minister, Donald Tusk,

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the President of the Council, says we have always had that, it need not

:15:07.:15:13.

mean integration for Britain, the settlement confirms only the status

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quo. It is very interesting for him to

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say that but on every programme that I've ever been on, it has been this

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drift towards ever closer union, political union, that has been

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important. If it means we have now re-established that it is about give

:15:31.:15:33.

and take and cooperation, that is a great thing. Given how little the

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prime and this has achieved -- the Prime Minister has achieved, would

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his position not be undermined, or become untenable, if this draft

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settlement was further undermined before being finally agreed? I'm

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very confident, given that this Prime Minister is the only Prime

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Minister ever to take powers back from Europe, that it will be

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successful. But could you stomach of further watering down? It would

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depend what the overall position is but my position comes not from any

:16:09.:16:13.

enthusiasm for Europe. It's just a lack of any decent ideas that we

:16:14.:16:18.

would be better off outside. To come back to this business of the

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European Parliament, there are number of areas in which the

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European Parliament has to approve this settlement, including the work

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benefits, child benefit element, perhaps even the red card. What

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guarantees can you give, because the European Parliament won't to do

:16:35.:16:38.

this, if it does it at all, until after the referendum... So how can

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you guarantee that we will vote to stay in and the European Parliament

:16:44.:16:47.

will not pass the legislation? We've had indications from the European

:16:48.:16:49.

Parliament that they will do precisely that. What I would hope...

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Where? Just a second. The leader of the largest party has said that. I

:16:57.:17:02.

think what we would want to see over the next couple of weeks are more

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codification in terms of how this would come to operate, not just for

:17:09.:17:14.

us but for other parties. But if the European Parliament doesn't pass

:17:15.:17:17.

this, it is not legally binding. The Prime Minister has told us that. It

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can only be eagerly binding under the existing treaties with

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legislation through the European Parliament. You are asking the

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British people to vote blind, to vote yes, without really knowing

:17:30.:17:32.

what the European Parliament might do down the road in the autumn at

:17:33.:17:38.

the end of the year. I'm very confident that will be the case. --

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won't be the case. It will be an appalling abuse of trust and would

:17:45.:17:49.

undermine the European Union, were it not to do so. But sooner or

:17:50.:17:54.

later, we are going to have to go on to discuss, what would the

:17:55.:17:56.

consequences be thus leaving? Because that would not be a

:17:57.:18:00.

pain-free experience. I really want the guarantees for those that want

:18:01.:18:05.

us to leave to say that my constituents and my constituents'

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children will be materially better off by leaving. Not just the same

:18:09.:18:13.

but better off by leaving. Eric Pickles, thanks for being with us

:18:14.:18:14.

this morning. Thank you. In recent weeks we've been debating

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some of the big issues at the heart We've covered immigration

:18:18.:18:21.

and the economy. Today we're going to look

:18:22.:18:23.

at Britain's sovereignty within the European Union and ask,

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is the EU a democratic club There are about 500 million people

:18:26.:18:28.

across the 28 member states Voters from these countries go

:18:29.:18:32.

to the polls every five years to elect 751 members

:18:33.:18:35.

of the European Parliament. The UK currently has

:18:36.:18:38.

73 MEPs, who have some say over the EU budget

:18:39.:18:42.

and new legislation. But it's the unelected Commission,

:18:43.:18:46.

led by President Jean-Claude Juncker, that is responsible

:18:47.:18:48.

for day-to-day management, plus proposing and

:18:49.:18:52.

implementing new laws. Later this month, David Cameron

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will attend a crucial meeting of the European Council

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to press for his draft settlement, the outcome of his

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efforts to renegotiate our terms The Council is made up of the 28

:19:03.:19:06.

heads of state or government of EU members and decides

:19:07.:19:13.

the Union's overall political But it's not to be confused with

:19:14.:19:16.

the Council of the European Union, where ministers from each

:19:17.:19:21.

country meet to discuss, There's always been

:19:22.:19:25.

concern about a so-called democratic deficit and at the last

:19:26.:19:29.

elections in 2014, turnout In the UK, where few people can

:19:30.:19:33.

even name a local MEP, I'm joined now by former Respect

:19:34.:19:40.

MP George Galloway - he's said this week he'll campaign

:19:41.:19:50.

for Britain to leave the EU - and by the Labour MP

:19:51.:19:53.

Stephen Kinnock, who wants Stephen Kinnock, let me come to you

:19:54.:20:02.

first. Turnout at the last election was under 36%. Only 11% can name

:20:03.:20:08.

their MEP. Richie Gray the EU has a massive democratic deficit and the

:20:09.:20:12.

Cameron settlement does nothing to address it, does it? On the

:20:13.:20:16.

democratic deficit, of course it would be good if more people voted

:20:17.:20:21.

in democratic elections but let's not forget there is another

:20:22.:20:24.

democratically elected institution in Brussels and that's the council

:20:25.:20:26.

of the vistas and the European council. They are ministers. Our

:20:27.:20:31.

Prime Minister, directly elected by the British people, going to

:20:32.:20:34.

Brussels to exert influence for Britain. The democratic deficit

:20:35.:20:38.

sometimes gets tied up with the European Parliament. That's an

:20:39.:20:42.

element of it but the council is a major part. On the renegotiation, I

:20:43.:20:46.

think the really important point is that this referendum is not about

:20:47.:20:50.

David Cameron's renegotiation. This referendum is about the future of

:20:51.:20:55.

the United Kingdom as a trading nation, as a proud nation in terms

:20:56.:21:00.

of a diplomatic big player and where we are actually going in terms of

:21:01.:21:03.

the long-term future of the country. It's not about the precise details

:21:04.:21:09.

of David Cameron's renegotiation. Mr Cameron think that is important.

:21:10.:21:13.

George Galloway, you said you believe in a union of the peoples of

:21:14.:21:17.

Europe but surely the only realistic way to achieve that is to work for a

:21:18.:21:21.

reformed EU. Anything else is just rhetoric. No, because I think it is

:21:22.:21:32.

in the Brits of the EU. You pointed to the visibility of the European

:21:33.:21:35.

Parliament, its credibility and standing but you didn't add that the

:21:36.:21:39.

European Parliament itself, even if AT the centre people were turning

:21:40.:21:41.

out to vote for it, has almost no power. The power lies in this

:21:42.:21:47.

council of ministers and in a bureaucracy well entrenched, very

:21:48.:21:52.

lavishly funded, which has meant of its own. I could answer your

:21:53.:21:57.

question in two words - Catherine Ashton. Never heard of her? No. Ever

:21:58.:22:05.

elected to? No. She was the European Foreign Minister, dictating to other

:22:06.:22:08.

countries outside the world with no democratic mandate of any kind. I

:22:09.:22:14.

think we have to be more sensible about the way we talk about these

:22:15.:22:18.

things. There is a process of co-decision which is enshrined in

:22:19.:22:21.

the treaties of the European Union. The vast majority of the legislation

:22:22.:22:25.

which goes through has to be agreed by both the European Parliament and

:22:26.:22:29.

by the European council on the basis of proposals from the European

:22:30.:22:32.

Commission. Not necessarily all the council. Politics is the art of the

:22:33.:22:39.

possible and when you are part of a system of pooled sovereignty is,

:22:40.:22:42.

when we come together as nation states because we believe our

:22:43.:22:45.

sovereignty is actually strengthened through cooperation, of course you

:22:46.:22:50.

have to make compromises. You don't win absolutely 100% of everything

:22:51.:22:54.

that you go for but actually, I believe that through corporation and

:22:55.:22:56.

pulling our sovereignty our sovereignty is strengthened. There

:22:57.:23:01.

has been a lot of talk by the Prime Minister about asserting the

:23:02.:23:04.

sovereignty of Parliament. It seems to be one of the carrots to attract

:23:05.:23:08.

Mr Boris Johnson to come onside. But surely you have to accept that in

:23:09.:23:13.

many areas, the EU and the European Court of Justice, they are sovereign

:23:14.:23:16.

and Parliament has to recognise that sovereignty or we have to leave. I

:23:17.:23:21.

think that we have to also look at the likes of Google or the big

:23:22.:23:26.

multinational companies. They don't recognise the concept of

:23:27.:23:30.

sovereignty. For people on the left, such as George and myself, the key

:23:31.:23:35.

point of the European Union is, it's a transnational body that regulating

:23:36.:23:39.

transnational business. Not very well. It is not regulating them very

:23:40.:23:43.

well. Much better than we could do them alone. I don't think so. The

:23:44.:23:49.

bottom line is... And this is to be, on the left. Mr Kinnock senior and I

:23:50.:23:55.

shared many platforms on this, as well as the late Mr Benn, the late

:23:56.:24:00.

Mr foot. This was commonplace on the left. We don't want to be dictated

:24:01.:24:07.

to by other countries. We want our people to choose our government and

:24:08.:24:12.

thus our direction. And I'd rather take my chance with changing things

:24:13.:24:16.

in Britain than waiting for a change in Bulgaria or in Poland. But you

:24:17.:24:23.

are nationalists and doesn't but inevitably involve some kind of

:24:24.:24:28.

pooling sovereignty? The whole basis of the European Union... As we

:24:29.:24:33.

always said from 1975 onwards, on the left, the European Community,

:24:34.:24:37.

now the EU, is actually built on neoliberal economic principles,

:24:38.:24:42.

which are ironclad and unchangeable. However people want to vote. Are you

:24:43.:24:49.

comfortable with the manner in which Greece's sovereignty was overturned

:24:50.:24:52.

by the European institutions and above all by companies -- countries

:24:53.:24:58.

like Germany? We live in a highly globalised, interdependent world and

:24:59.:25:02.

the idea that the UK alone can exert influence and regulate the big

:25:03.:25:05.

multinationals on its own is absurd. The other key point on Greece is,

:25:06.:25:09.

how would we help the people of Greece by leaving the EU? Our

:25:10.:25:13.

principles are about solidarity, a key value on which European Union is

:25:14.:25:18.

founded, which is a value of the left. What was the solidarity that

:25:19.:25:22.

the EU showed Greece? I think what we need is a Labour Prime Minister

:25:23.:25:26.

in Brussels arguing against the politics of austerity. We are not

:25:27.:25:32.

part of the eurozone. This was a eurozone argument. We can still

:25:33.:25:40.

exert our influence. What many would think is your natural allies on the

:25:41.:25:43.

European left, so reads the increase, and a party in Spain, want

:25:44.:25:48.

to stay in the EU. Why are you right and your comrades wrong? The people

:25:49.:25:53.

of Greece were crushed underfoot by this neoliberal consensus on which

:25:54.:25:58.

the EU and administrations are built. Portugal actually had an

:25:59.:26:04.

election and elected a majority of left-wing MPs and we're told by the

:26:05.:26:09.

European Union, the president of Portugal was told, you mustn't

:26:10.:26:12.

summon these people to your palace to allow them to form a government.

:26:13.:26:16.

This is unconscionable. It's not because I love the people of Greece,

:26:17.:26:20.

though I do, or the people of Spain. I don't want us to face the same

:26:21.:26:25.

fate as them. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonell's economic policies, which

:26:26.:26:29.

I believe in and which are badly needed, are illegal under the EU. If

:26:30.:26:35.

we were to save our steel industry, for example, we would be acting out

:26:36.:26:38.

with the European Union's legal framework. You've been closely

:26:39.:26:42.

involved in the steel industry. What do you say to that? I fail to see

:26:43.:26:48.

how our principles of solidarity and reaching out to our brothers and

:26:49.:26:51.

sisters in other parts of the year are helped by the idea that we

:26:52.:26:54.

suddenly leave. But to me seems to be going against the founding value

:26:55.:26:57.

of the Labour Party, which is solidarity. On steel, this is a

:26:58.:27:02.

classic example but it is up to your member state government to play the

:27:03.:27:05.

game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government that has been

:27:06.:27:09.

asleep at the wheel on steel for four or five years. An energy

:27:10.:27:12.

compensation package should have been put in place years ago. The

:27:13.:27:15.

government has done nothing about it. The massive flooding of Chinese

:27:16.:27:20.

steel into the British market has only been happening over the last

:27:21.:27:23.

four years. That could only be done by Europe, not Britain. It took them

:27:24.:27:28.

for years to get the stated clearance because nobody was

:27:29.:27:30.

knocking on the door properly in Brussels and because we are cosying

:27:31.:27:34.

up to Beijing. Cameron and Osborne seem to be putting the interests of

:27:35.:27:39.

our relationship with China ahead of British industry. We are allowing

:27:40.:27:42.

them to damp massive amounts of Chinese steel in the market. The

:27:43.:27:47.

European Court of Justice is preventing us from deporting

:27:48.:27:49.

Moroccan citizen, the daughter-in-law of Abu Hamza, Abu

:27:50.:27:54.

Hamza himself convicted of 11 terrorist offences. She has done

:27:55.:27:59.

time, too, for a terrorist elated offence. We still can't deport her.

:28:00.:28:02.

That is a pretty serious intrusion of our sovereignty. I don't know the

:28:03.:28:07.

details of that case but I do know we live in a very interdependent

:28:08.:28:10.

world... You said that. What people want to know is if we can deport

:28:11.:28:13.

foreign citizens who have terrorist criminal convictions. We did manage

:28:14.:28:18.

to do it with Abu Hamza, so there are ways. The EU is a rules -based

:28:19.:28:23.

organisation. It sets the rules of the game. It's up to the member

:28:24.:28:28.

states to play that game properly. Unfortunately, we have a government

:28:29.:28:31.

that has failed to build alliances and coalitions in Brussels. That's

:28:32.:28:34.

one of the reasons we have a difficult relationship with the EU

:28:35.:28:39.

now. When you look at this leave site and the various factions of the

:28:40.:28:43.

time they seem to be spending more time knocking lumps out of each

:28:44.:28:50.

other, does that make you happy you joined? I campaigned against

:28:51.:28:53.

breaking up Britain and for a no vote in the Scottish referendum.

:28:54.:28:56.

That didn't mean I was with the Tories, didn't mean I was with the

:28:57.:29:01.

Orange order. So are you solo again? There used to be a commonplace view

:29:02.:29:09.

from the 1970s, and still standing now, for a democratic future for

:29:10.:29:13.

Britain. We decide how many immigrants we have, who we deport,

:29:14.:29:17.

what our levels of taxation are and what our foreign policy should be.

:29:18.:29:20.

We will leave it there. Thank you both.

:29:21.:29:23.

Labour says it faces losing more than a quarter of its funding,

:29:24.:29:25.

thanks to Government plans to change the way the party gets money

:29:26.:29:28.

from trade union members, along with moves to cut state

:29:29.:29:31.

In a rare TV outing, the party's general secretary

:29:32.:29:34.

Iain McNicol has told us just how damaging the changes could be.

:29:35.:29:37.

An audience of around 800 people turning out on a Thursday night

:29:38.:29:44.

in North London to watch well-known comedians,

:29:45.:29:47.

artistic and political types talk about, well,

:29:48.:29:50.

why Jeremy Corbyn ought to be Prime Minister.

:29:51.:29:53.

He wasn't here and this wasn't a fundraiser but similar nights

:29:54.:30:02.

to this have raised cash for the party.

:30:03.:30:05.

Welcome, one and all, you bunch of loony lefties.

:30:06.:30:08.

I started in my constituency in Brentford.

:30:09.:30:13.

And then other constituencies asked me to do the same thing

:30:14.:30:18.

and we've done 165 and raised ?100,000.

:30:19.:30:54.

And it's just as well, because the Labour Party

:30:55.:30:56.

says it could be about to lose about ?8 million of funding

:30:57.:30:59.

if Government plans to change the way it collects

:31:00.:31:02.

money from trade union members go through.

:31:03.:31:03.

And they say it's no laughing matter.

:31:04.:31:05.

It is an affront on British democracy.

:31:06.:31:06.

If you look at any previous agreement which changed

:31:07.:31:09.

the funding of a political party, it was done on a consensual,

:31:10.:31:12.

cross-party basis, an agreement, because of the effect it had.

:31:13.:31:14.

So is this an existential threat to the Labour Party?

:31:15.:31:16.

It would be very difficult for the party.

:31:17.:31:19.

funding would mean that we would not be able to operate in the current

:31:20.:31:25.

way that we do, holding the Government to account

:31:26.:31:27.

The cash goes towards staffing, reportedly around

:31:28.:31:31.

half its costs, and, of course, campaigning.

:31:32.:31:33.

Things like party election broadcasts, battle buses,

:31:34.:31:37.

At the moment, trade union members have to actively opt

:31:38.:31:40.

out of paying towards the Labour Party.

:31:41.:31:42.

In the future, they would have to opt in, in writing,

:31:43.:31:46.

within three months - something Labour fear

:31:47.:31:48.

people just won't get round to doing.

:31:49.:31:50.

It also coincides with a 19% cut to so-called short money,

:31:51.:31:56.

cash given to all opposition parties to

:31:57.:32:01.

help with the costs of Parliamentary business -

:32:02.:32:04.

a sort of concession for not having the civil service

:32:05.:32:05.

But the man who used to be in charge of said civil

:32:06.:32:09.

service says the Government's plans are at best partisan.

:32:10.:32:11.

It goes to this wider question of what I would see

:32:12.:32:17.

as a worryingly authoritarian streak in government that finds it

:32:18.:32:19.

difficult to live with and accept challenge.

:32:20.:32:21.

I think that's something that people of all parties...

:32:22.:32:24.

I'm actually a crossbencher, not in any

:32:25.:32:26.

party, and I think, whichever party are in,

:32:27.:32:28.

There's nothing authoritarian about having something

:32:29.:32:33.

clearly flagged in our manifesto, voted for in a majority government

:32:34.:32:38.

and delivered on, and there's nothing authoritarian about having

:32:39.:32:41.

That's to say, if you're a Labour Party supporter and you're

:32:42.:32:47.

a member of a trade union, you actively choose to do it,

:32:48.:32:50.

rather than having it forced upon you

:32:51.:32:52.

Frankly, I think the Labour Party needs to get

:32:53.:32:55.

out and convince union members it's a good use of their money to give

:32:56.:32:58.

that money to the Labour Party, just as the Conservatives

:32:59.:33:01.

and Liberal Democrats have to convince people to give

:33:02.:33:03.

We don't rely on people accidentally giving

:33:04.:33:14.

Back in Kentish Town, the organisers here say a night

:33:15.:33:24.

like this is as much about raising awareness and morale as it is cash.

:33:25.:33:27.

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign relied on grassroots support.

:33:28.:33:29.

As the party's funding streams start to dry

:33:30.:33:31.

up, it it could well need to rely on people like this -

:33:32.:33:34.

people willing to come to a night about Jeremy Corbyn

:33:35.:33:36.

In fact, Mr Corbyn may prefer the thought of appealing

:33:37.:33:53.

to the wallets of people like this, rather than the traditional big

:33:54.:33:56.

donors, and number of whom have already publicly

:33:57.:33:58.

But fundraising made up just 3% of the

:33:59.:34:01.

The spotlight will now fall on how Labour pays its way in the future.

:34:02.:34:05.

And we now say goodbye to viewers in Scotland,

:34:06.:34:08.

who leave us for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:34:09.:34:10.

Now, this week in the House of Lords, Labour's peers

:34:11.:34:13.

will try to fight off the Government's plans to change

:34:14.:34:15.

the way union members give money to the party.

:34:16.:34:17.

The shadow leader in the Lords, Angela Smith, joins me now -

:34:18.:34:20.

and I should add we asked to speak to a Government minister

:34:21.:34:23.

For a change! Or not! If you join a trade union, why should part of the

:34:24.:34:28.

membership fee be given to the Labour Party without your explicit

:34:29.:34:30.

approval? It is a choice you can make and one of the things said

:34:31.:34:34.

during the House of Lords debate is a Conservative peer said, when was

:34:35.:34:39.

the evidence that people are forced to opt in? One of the key things is

:34:40.:34:44.

the government says you must opt in rather than quite but when they gave

:34:45.:34:50.

businesses two years to bring in the plastic bag levy, they gave trade

:34:51.:34:54.

unions three months to change them into our system. In three years

:34:55.:34:59.

would you change your mind? Well, no. It's not really a matter of

:35:00.:35:09.

time, then? Within three months in writing, the government is making

:35:10.:35:14.

this as difficult as possible. When this was looked at, it was amenable

:35:15.:35:18.

of a number of -- context of a number of aspects and they are not

:35:19.:35:23.

giving any other changes on those affecting themselves, only the

:35:24.:35:28.

Labour Party. Many members do not vote Labour, why should they have to

:35:29.:35:34.

opt out? Surely those who want to join Labour should have to opt in?

:35:35.:35:38.

There does not seem to be any problem with people being asked to

:35:39.:35:45.

opt out. Look at this in the context of funding for all parties, the

:35:46.:35:49.

government have picked one recommendation from the committee of

:35:50.:35:53.

standards in public life, the one that reflects the Labour Party adds

:35:54.:35:56.

nothing to look at Conservative Party funding, blatantly partisan

:35:57.:36:01.

and unfair. But is it wrong within its own right? Labour depends on

:36:02.:36:09.

inertia, people pay the levy but they don't want to and they do not

:36:10.:36:16.

know about opting out? Isn't it time we stopped tracking nonlabour

:36:17.:36:20.

voters? Nobody is tracking anybody, that is grossly misrepresenting. In

:36:21.:36:28.

the context of all of these public life issues, you can do it but they

:36:29.:36:36.

say themselves, tracking, the Conservatives talk about the burden

:36:37.:36:41.

on trade unions, this is unfair. It will ensure that in that short space

:36:42.:36:45.

of time they will not be able to reach everybody. You said that even

:36:46.:36:50.

in two years you would still be against it. That is not exactly what

:36:51.:36:57.

I said, over a longer period of time, in the context of all the

:36:58.:37:00.

other measures that have been addressed on party funding, what is

:37:01.:37:05.

unfair is this is one measure affecting one party. You understand

:37:06.:37:09.

the government is picking on you. Not just me! In the United States,

:37:10.:37:19.

Bernie Sanders, on the left of the party, he has no union backing or

:37:20.:37:25.

big donors or business backing. He managed to get, not even running

:37:26.:37:29.

nationwide, over 3 million individual donations. He raised $20

:37:30.:37:38.

million in January. Jeremy Corbyn is striking a chord with people who

:37:39.:37:41.

have never been involved before. Why not raise more money from ordinary

:37:42.:37:48.

sympathisers. Do not think for one moment that trade unionists who

:37:49.:37:51.

could opt in are not ordinary Labour Party, many of them are and over

:37:52.:37:57.

longer period you would not see the drop off the Conservative Party is

:37:58.:38:02.

hoping for. $20 million in one month. That is amazing and I would

:38:03.:38:07.

like to change how we can fund political parties and that is what

:38:08.:38:12.

the committee looked at, reducing the cap on donations, reducing the

:38:13.:38:17.

spending limits and it did look at -- look at trade unionists funding.

:38:18.:38:25.

How much do you raise from individual members? About two thirds

:38:26.:38:32.

of funding. Excluding a good donors? I could not give you that figure.

:38:33.:38:41.

Isn't that the way the Labour should reduce its dependence on the unions,

:38:42.:38:46.

?8 million from the unions at the moment, and many people in the party

:38:47.:38:50.

used to think that kind of funding was a disadvantage for the party

:38:51.:38:56.

because you are more than unions. Would that not be one way of getting

:38:57.:39:02.

small, individual donations to bring in a lot of money and show that you

:39:03.:39:06.

are not in the pocket of anybody? Over the course of Parliament it is

:39:07.:39:11.

about ?8 million every year that is just one third of the money that we

:39:12.:39:14.

get from all areas, donations from members also. What I am looking at

:39:15.:39:21.

is the Conservative Party that so dislikes the unions, it wants to cut

:39:22.:39:26.

their funding to not just us but in the work they do. If they want to do

:39:27.:39:31.

that, look at parting funding overall but it is ill-conceived to

:39:32.:39:35.

just look at modelling the opposition. I take your point that

:39:36.:39:40.

they are not stopping big donors from giving themselves money but

:39:41.:39:48.

have you not become more dependent on the unions? At one stage we

:39:49.:39:51.

thought you were becoming less so but more than ever, and the leader

:39:52.:39:57.

seems to make that dependency even greater? According to a recent

:39:58.:40:02.

report, Jeremy Corbyn treats big Labour donors with disdain and has

:40:03.:40:09.

abandoned fundraising. We look at all members and supporters for

:40:10.:40:14.

donations but I will not apologise for our relationship with trade

:40:15.:40:17.

unions, we grew out of them and we work together on issues. What I am

:40:18.:40:24.

asking is, are you not becoming overly dependent on them? And

:40:25.:40:28.

becoming vulnerable to this time of action from a Conservative

:40:29.:40:31.

government? Our donations continue to increase, I cannot give you

:40:32.:40:39.

figures, I do not do those sums. I cannot remember them. I haven't got

:40:40.:40:44.

a photographic memory! I know the problem! Are you going to block this

:40:45.:40:52.

in the House of Lords? You may not like this but it was in the Tory

:40:53.:40:57.

manifesto? This came from cross-party, let us investigate this

:40:58.:41:02.

properly, let us take not just my word or the word of the Labour

:41:03.:41:06.

Party, let's have a cross-party look at what the Tory party is trying to

:41:07.:41:11.

do and I would put store by that. Let's look at the report on the 29th

:41:12.:41:15.

of the brewery. Thank you very much. -- February.

:41:16.:41:19.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking to an MP

:41:20.:41:21.

from the latest Eurosceptic group hoping to be chosen as the official

:41:22.:41:32.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:41:33.:41:34.

Deadlock over legacy continues to dominate

:41:35.:41:37.

the political agenda, so is there the will to resolve

:41:38.:41:40.

We'll hear from the leaders of the UUP and the SDLP.

:41:41.:41:46.

The battle is in full swing in the Republic,

:41:47.:41:48.

with polling in the general election less than three weeks away.

:41:49.:41:51.

And our guests of the day are Dawn Purvis

:41:52.:41:53.

If anyone needed a reminder of the importance of legacy issues,

:41:54.:42:08.

in recent days, we've had former and current chief constables -

:42:09.:42:10.

as well as the authors of the Eames-Bradley Report -

:42:11.:42:12.

all taking to the airwaves to say what needs to happen.

:42:13.:42:16.

This is what Sir Hugh Orde and George Hamilton had to say

:42:17.:42:19.

First of all, their different perspectives on the Historical

:42:20.:42:23.

Enquiries Team, which Sir Hugh maintains was the first step

:42:24.:42:25.

My ambition was to be part of a wider process. That is why we set it

:42:26.:42:38.

up. Sadly, no-one came in the windows, leaving the Historical

:42:39.:42:42.

Enquiries Team to be the only show in town and now sadly even that has

:42:43.:42:45.

gone. We have gone backwards, not forwards. It was based on trying to

:42:46.:42:51.

do something fundamentally different to what police services did now

:42:52.:42:54.

passed. It was trying to understand what victims wanted to know and

:42:55.:42:59.

doing our level best to give them some form of resolution in terms of

:43:00.:43:05.

what had gone on when their loved one was killed. It started off on

:43:06.:43:08.

the right footing but there were problems as we developed it. There

:43:09.:43:14.

was not confidence in the work of the ACT. So you said in his piece

:43:15.:43:19.

that this was a different approach and that was to be welcomed and

:43:20.:43:24.

defended. It was to be victim centred, and suing questions for

:43:25.:43:27.

families, all of which is important. But under the Police Act, I have to

:43:28.:43:36.

collect evidence, and bring offenders to justice. We want to do

:43:37.:43:39.

that in a way that is sensitive and informative to families. But that

:43:40.:43:43.

was the problem. They did not have a firm grounding on the purpose.

:43:44.:43:47.

There was agreement between the two, though, about the need for political

:43:48.:43:50.

leadership to resolve for good the outstanding legacy problems.

:43:51.:43:53.

These processes around what people can see, what they cannot see, needs

:43:54.:44:02.

a political solution rather than a legal one. If we hide behind the

:44:03.:44:09.

law, we will see is more demands for inquests, public enquiries and more

:44:10.:44:13.

investigations. There simply are not the resources for any of that to

:44:14.:44:16.

happen. It is a reality check and political leadership will resolve

:44:17.:44:20.

that issue if they wanted to be resolved. It is interesting that the

:44:21.:44:25.

first Duke Constable on your programme to make believed it will

:44:26.:44:31.

be -- it had been resolved soon after 2003. I hope the progress we

:44:32.:44:35.

have made means of me will resolve it in NXT you'll spot it has been

:44:36.:44:42.

huge problem. -- means we will get resolved in the next few years but

:44:43.:44:46.

it has been a big problem. We want to move this thing forward.

:44:47.:44:48.

The Chief Constable, George Hamilton.

:44:49.:44:49.

Let's pursue some of those issues now with the leaders

:44:50.:44:51.

of the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP.

:44:52.:44:53.

Mike Nesbitt is with me in Belfast and Colum Eastwood

:44:54.:44:56.

Welcome. Mike Nesbitt, George Hamilton talked about the need for

:44:57.:45:00.

compromise and rate decisions. Do you see any evidence

:45:01.:45:02.

of that happening? Not at all and I have been involved

:45:03.:45:09.

in talks for probably three years on these issues. I do not think we have

:45:10.:45:15.

a common understanding of what we mean with dealing with the past.

:45:16.:45:19.

What we mean to deal with it and for whose benefit? People talk about

:45:20.:45:23.

being victim centred. IKEA that a lot from Sinn Fein but look at what

:45:24.:45:27.

we have had an last few days. The IRA are trying to say, we are not

:45:28.:45:31.

responsible for the Shankill bomb, the police were. Going back to the

:45:32.:45:39.

Castlereagh break-in, you have Gerry Kelly saying it was not the IRA. Now

:45:40.:45:46.

the IRA, what they have got, it does not prove anything other than the

:45:47.:45:51.

fact that they are responsible. The survivors and victims are being

:45:52.:45:53.

re-traumatised because of the strategies of Republicans to cover

:45:54.:45:58.

embarrassment for the seedy sectarian war by saying others are

:45:59.:46:04.

responsible. It is a Regis to do that to victims and survivors. There

:46:05.:46:07.

is no evidence that police knew about the Shankill bomb and every

:46:08.:46:11.

evidence says it was the IRA. George Hamilton is very clear. Compromised,

:46:12.:46:18.

compromise and brave decisions. Are you,? -- argue for that? That is not

:46:19.:46:29.

compromise. Compromise means you have to give and take. Yes. I'm

:46:30.:46:35.

prepared to look at the well-being of everyone, no matter how they got

:46:36.:46:40.

past their mental health. We have forgotten the lesson of George

:46:41.:46:44.

Mitchell. He said, you're focusing on the things that are most

:46:45.:46:53.

intractable. Let's look at an agenda which means we can agree on

:46:54.:46:58.

something. It is a really toxic legacy. Why don't we do with that

:46:59.:47:01.

rather than allow people to suffer because of the mutual butyl between

:47:02.:47:11.

the DUP and Sinn Fein? Colum Eastwood, George Hamilton talked

:47:12.:47:13.

about compromise and brave decisions. You have what Mike

:47:14.:47:17.

Nesbitt said in his response to the Chief Constable. What do you make of

:47:18.:47:22.

it? One of the lessons in last couple of weeks around the Shankill

:47:23.:47:26.

bombing, and I was on the Shankill with those families in the days

:47:27.:47:30.

after that report came out, those families have again been

:47:31.:47:33.

re-traumatised by the failure of all of us to do with the past. My

:47:34.:47:37.

generation wants to move on, wants to move forward. I don't think we

:47:38.:47:41.

can until we properly deal with the legacy of the past. It continues to

:47:42.:47:45.

infect and affect the politics of today. If we want to look after the

:47:46.:47:49.

victims, we want to look after those people who have been left behind,

:47:50.:47:53.

and we want to look after the political process today, we have to

:47:54.:47:58.

deal with the past. We can no longer pretend that does not exist. We can

:47:59.:48:02.

no longer pretend it will go away. We have to engage in a serious

:48:03.:48:07.

process of dealing with this. I'm not waiting until after the election

:48:08.:48:11.

or anything else. When can it be resolved then? When you listen to

:48:12.:48:16.

politicians individually, it sounds like the other million miles apart

:48:17.:48:19.

on key issues and yet we hear from Martin McGuinness that if the issue

:48:20.:48:22.

can't be solved before the election, it's be resolved after me's

:48:23.:48:28.

election. The Secretary of State says, we're closer than ever before.

:48:29.:48:33.

You believe that? In terms of structures, think we can agree. The

:48:34.:48:37.

big gap is political will from the British Government, from the IRA and

:48:38.:48:41.

other paramilitary groups. You have seen what Lord Justice Weir has said

:48:42.:48:48.

in the last few weeks. The blockages bid in the way of justice and truth

:48:49.:48:51.

from the MOD and paramilitary organisations. I think we can all

:48:52.:48:55.

easily agree the structures but if people are not prepared and

:48:56.:48:59.

organisations and governments are not prepared to move forward until

:49:00.:49:02.

the full truth of what happened, we will always be on this

:49:03.:49:06.

merry-go-round. I just want to ask you very quickly about Eames-Bradley

:49:07.:49:14.

. Hugh Orde said he thinks it is high time that the Eames-Bradley

:49:15.:49:17.

Report be lifted off the shelf where it has gathered dust for the past

:49:18.:49:20.

seven years. Does that make sense and would that help nudge people

:49:21.:49:25.

forward? We have always said that Eames-Bradley was an attempt to do

:49:26.:49:31.

with the past and it is an opportunity lost. In number of

:49:32.:49:35.

victims and survivors have unfortunately passed away. We have

:49:36.:49:37.

missed the opportunity to give them truth and justice that they so

:49:38.:49:42.

desperately require. What we do need now is a political will from those

:49:43.:49:46.

people who have the truth to tell. That has been the big gap. It is

:49:47.:49:51.

very unfortunate that we are re-traumatising victims every day

:49:52.:49:57.

with different approaches to how we actually deal with the past. I think

:49:58.:50:00.

it does hurt our future and it does not do our future any good. The

:50:01.:50:06.

prospects of a different type of society here. If we continue to

:50:07.:50:12.

re-traumatised victims with issues that affect them.

:50:13.:50:15.

The big sticking point for some unionists was the ?12,000

:50:16.:50:18.

recognition payment for victims of the Troubles.

:50:19.:50:19.

Denis Bradley said on Friday he believes the DUP's acceptance

:50:20.:50:22.

of the Evason Report shows that the party has

:50:23.:50:24.

Has he got that right? That is a question for the DUP but he is

:50:25.:50:35.

certainly right to raise the question. It does seem to set a

:50:36.:50:39.

precedent and you wonder where that is going and whether that is the DUP

:50:40.:50:42.

taking their eye off the ball on whether they know exactly where they

:50:43.:50:46.

are going with this potentially in terms of the proposal for those

:50:47.:50:50.

carrying serious physical injury, which has not come forward because a

:50:51.:50:56.

small number of the 250 or so who qualified had suffered injury at

:50:57.:50:58.

their own hands through their own terrorist acts. Jeffrey Donaldson

:50:59.:51:03.

was very clear in responding that the DUP's position is not shifted.

:51:04.:51:08.

Clearly, people do think that the position has shifted. He said it is

:51:09.:51:16.

not a question for you, but I am asking you, does it look like the

:51:17.:51:19.

DUP has shifted its position, and if it has, without necessarily be a bad

:51:20.:51:25.

thing for Unionism? They have either shifted their position they are

:51:26.:51:27.

sleep at the wheel. Either way, we need to know. Neither is

:51:28.:51:33.

particularly edifying. What we are looking for here are processes that

:51:34.:51:36.

unblock something that is badly blocked. Colum talks about truth.

:51:37.:51:46.

But there is not a truth. What we have proposed thinking about this is

:51:47.:51:48.

that the one thing you cannot disagree about is that certain

:51:49.:51:52.

things happen in some places at some times. With the Shankill bomb, you

:51:53.:51:58.

can lay down a factual spine and allow people to record their own

:51:59.:52:02.

impressions of that. Because the search for an agreed narrative is

:52:03.:52:05.

the search for Holy Grail that will not happen. Would you be prepared to

:52:06.:52:09.

compromise on an issue like this if the bigger picture was resolved?

:52:10.:52:15.

This has been toxic for as long as anyone can remember and it will

:52:16.:52:18.

continue to be so. It seems to get worse as time passes rather than

:52:19.:52:24.

better. Might it be today better -- betterment of Unionists to swallow

:52:25.:52:28.

hard and deal with this for the greater good? The easy bite, which

:52:29.:52:35.

would make a big impact, is to recognise so many victims suffer

:52:36.:52:40.

from them until health and well-being and it is

:52:41.:52:43.

intergenerational. People born after ceasefires are suffering the toxic

:52:44.:52:46.

legacy of the conflict. Let's do that as a confidence builder.

:52:47.:52:50.

Another thing I am very keen on is acknowledgement statements. I would

:52:51.:52:53.

be prepared as the leader of Unionism to make a statement about

:52:54.:52:57.

what Unionism did and did not do in the years we were in charge if

:52:58.:53:01.

others were prepared to speak out. Colum Eastwood, 20 seconds left. Is

:53:02.:53:07.

there a failure for politicians to face up to making the difficult

:53:08.:53:10.

decisions that have got to be taking? We need to recognise that

:53:11.:53:16.

this is an issue for people that have the most truth to tell and they

:53:17.:53:20.

should be telling it. I would encourage the British Government, in

:53:21.:53:24.

terms of David Cameron, he needs to step in. This is why above the

:53:25.:53:28.

Secretary of State's pay grade and he needs to recognise that the good

:53:29.:53:32.

thing he did around Bloody Sunday, you can do that again and offer lots

:53:33.:53:35.

of people that same level of truth and justice. Thank you both very

:53:36.:53:37.

much indeed. Let's hear from Cathy

:53:38.:53:38.

Gormley-Heenan and Dawn Purvis. Welcome. Do you think there is some

:53:39.:53:48.

merit in it Eames-Bradley being back in the mix? It was one of the

:53:49.:53:54.

documents that most people find a lot of merit in in the peace

:53:55.:53:57.

process. What has happened since his Bradley Dack my, it was a big

:53:58.:54:03.

document and the issue of dealing with the past got reduced and

:54:04.:54:07.

reduced. It is right down to about five pages in the Stormont House

:54:08.:54:10.

agreement. The detail of it was not there. There are certainly have been

:54:11.:54:18.

many calls for Eames-Bradley to be dusted down and looked at again. But

:54:19.:54:23.

there is the role of the British Government in terms of this process

:54:24.:54:27.

going forward and now one use the words of national-security, which we

:54:28.:54:29.

know is one of the main sticking points at the minute and is not

:54:30.:54:34.

something that Eames-Bradley focused on. If you look at any international

:54:35.:54:38.

cases of the peace processes, no-one ever puts into peace agreements the

:54:39.:54:43.

need for a national-security veto. The British Government is out of

:54:44.:54:46.

step with the rest of international processes on this. Do you detect any

:54:47.:54:52.

shifts in emphasis, significant shifts, on the part of nationalism

:54:53.:54:58.

or Unionism recently? Yes, I do. I recognise a shift from the DUP. When

:54:59.:55:03.

we look at when Eames-Bradley was published in the recognition

:55:04.:55:10.

payment, people were not happy. It is pragmatic by the DUP to sign up

:55:11.:55:16.

to the Evason Report and it paves the way for the pension fund was

:55:17.:55:22.

seriously injured. Jeffrey Donaldson was very clear, it is not a U-turn

:55:23.:55:25.

and does not necessarily connect with Eames-Bradley. He made the

:55:26.:55:31.

point that the two things are quite separate. Fair enough, but it is

:55:32.:55:34.

still a step forward. People are recognised for a long time that

:55:35.:55:39.

there are people waiting on this pension and they should have it.

:55:40.:55:45.

What I do detect is that whilst there is some political will to

:55:46.:55:49.

reach agreement on these issues around the Stormont is agreement, I

:55:50.:55:52.

do not detect that all the parties in those negotiations. At the

:55:53.:55:56.

minute, it falls down to Sinn Fein and the Secretary of State and it

:55:57.:56:02.

should involve all parties. We will hear more from both of you later.

:56:03.:56:03.

For now, thank you. Time now for a look back

:56:04.:56:04.

at the week in 60 seconds, This woman missed out on being

:56:05.:56:19.

selected for the Assembly. Jonathan Bell claimed, we did not know the EU

:56:20.:56:26.

referendum question. It is very foolish person who answers before

:56:27.:56:31.

they know the exact nature of the question.

:56:32.:56:35.

Jim Allister was on hand to put the minister right. Why is the Minister

:56:36.:56:39.

coming to this House pretending they don't know the question when the law

:56:40.:56:42.

of the landscapes what the question is? The Assembly consider downsizing

:56:43.:56:46.

but the numbers matter? It could be five, four, it is being

:56:47.:56:52.

streamlined and efficient for our people. Phil Flannigan faced a

:56:53.:56:58.

massive legal bill after libelling Tom Elliott.

:56:59.:57:02.

And bird fanciers got rates relief as our MLAs ruled out pigeon puns.

:57:03.:57:10.

We think the policy does have wings and they should get their rates

:57:11.:57:11.

cheaper. Stephen Walker, still in a flap over

:57:12.:57:18.

the pigeon puns this week. Next to the election

:57:19.:57:21.

in the Republic. The starting gun was fired last week

:57:22.:57:24.

on a very short campaign. Muiris MacCartaigh

:57:25.:57:27.

from Queen's University You have been following developments

:57:28.:57:28.

very closely. Enda Kenny had a bit

:57:29.:57:33.

of an economic wobble in week one. Not good for him. Your Mac that is

:57:34.:57:45.

right. In contrast with 2011 elections, it is extraordinary. The

:57:46.:57:49.

campaign was about cuts to economies and freefall. Now, economic growth

:57:50.:57:55.

is very good in the Republic. What happened during the week is, the

:57:56.:58:04.

byword for the election was about the long-term economic plan, and

:58:05.:58:06.

they came out and said there would be something to the turn of 12

:58:07.:58:09.

billion in the next five years in terms of extra revenues. Whilst not

:58:10.:58:14.

breaching the very strict EU stability and growth figures. The

:58:15.:58:19.

party started to probe into this and he said, actually, that is not quite

:58:20.:58:23.

true. By Friday, or foster, they released a statement

:58:24.:58:31.

true. By Friday, or foster, they drop-down. For a party saying that

:58:32.:58:32.

we know how to handle the Connolly, not an ideal start. Not great and a

:58:33.:58:40.

personal level. How much will this come down to economic stability

:58:41.:58:46.

versus chaos scenario? As you said, the outgoing administration, this is

:58:47.:58:50.

the key card. Both said they would like to go into Government with each

:58:51.:58:54.

other. They say, you know, vote for us, we can provide, we can keep

:58:55.:58:58.

economic growth going that is currently taking place. The other

:58:59.:59:03.

parties... There is this issue about fairness. How will resources be

:59:04.:59:12.

used? The opposition parties, other smaller parties are saying, well,

:59:13.:59:16.

yes, the economy has turned a corner but a lot of families, working

:59:17.:59:20.

families are not feeling this at all. So it is about the economy,

:59:21.:59:26.

economic growth, versus strength and distribution. When you look at the

:59:27.:59:36.

polls out today, one has Sinn Fein down a couple of points, others

:59:37.:59:39.

suggest something similar are bit different, all within the margins of

:59:40.:59:42.

error. It is very difficult to read. It is. There are two elements to

:59:43.:59:47.

this. It is absolutely remarkable in terms of the number of parties

:59:48.:59:53.

entering this election. A vast number of independents as well.

:59:54.:59:58.

There has been a lot of stability, when you take into consideration the

:59:59.:00:01.

margin of error, there is a lot of stability. Sinn Fein is around 20%.

:00:02.:00:07.

The Labour Party trying to breach that 10% mark. And about 20% more

:00:08.:00:12.

for independence and smaller parties. There are nine or ten

:00:13.:00:17.

possible College and options which is very strange. Indeed, in my

:00:18.:00:22.

lifetime, in fact, in the history of Ireland, I do not recall it being

:00:23.:00:34.

one where finny -- where the incumbent looks like the largest

:00:35.:00:42.

party and Enda Kenny could be the Taoiseach for two elections. I think

:00:43.:00:48.

of it 6-9 months ago, there was talk about this and understand they met

:00:49.:00:52.

with the people who worked with the Tory party in the British system,

:00:53.:00:56.

trying to work towards this because it is a slightly reduced Parliament

:00:57.:01:00.

chamber of parliament is in this election. It is down from 166 6158.

:01:01.:01:06.

So I think they have been thing, if we maintain our vote, we were not to

:01:07.:01:12.

fire off a majority last time, it could go a different way. But that

:01:13.:01:16.

is off the table now. The party has accepted numbers will drop. The

:01:17.:01:21.

current numbers, they don't have enough majority. So the save money

:01:22.:01:28.

is Will there be a thug element to the coalition? A lot of the smaller

:01:29.:01:32.

parties are saying, that is instability. We might have another

:01:33.:01:36.

five-year Government. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

:01:37.:01:39.

And let's have a final word with Cathy and Dawn.

:01:40.:01:43.

Loads of interesting things happening.

:01:44.:01:46.

The Alliance MLAs Stewart Dickson and Trevor Lunn have

:01:47.:01:48.

tabled an amendment to the Justice Bill this week

:01:49.:01:51.

which would allow for abortion here in cases

:01:52.:01:52.

Abortion stigma has always got political discourse running through

:01:53.:02:05.

it. In terms of how it is unfolding, I think the most interesting thing

:02:06.:02:08.

that we have to remember when this is tabled next week is that everyone

:02:09.:02:12.

involved in the policy-making process around this is male, bar

:02:13.:02:18.

one. The Lord Chief Justice, the Attorney General, the Minister for

:02:19.:02:20.

Justice, all of the Department, all of the committee for Justice are one

:02:21.:02:26.

committee and the church leaders are male. This is a male dominated

:02:27.:02:30.

political policy environment that is charged effectively with something

:02:31.:02:34.

that will never be a personal reality for any of them. Is there

:02:35.:02:40.

any chance of it being a free vote at Stormont? I am not entirely sure.

:02:41.:02:47.

I will defer to dawn on this. I do not think so on this point. It is

:02:48.:02:52.

too soon. The reality is that how MLAs think privately is very

:02:53.:02:56.

different from what they are necessity to say publicly and we

:02:57.:02:59.

know that from surveys with Assembly members have been surveyed. They are

:03:00.:03:06.

not out of kilter with oblique sentiment, which is support of other

:03:07.:03:09.

members. That is an interesting point. You have a particular

:03:10.:03:14.

interest in this issue, given your previous involvement with the Marie

:03:15.:03:17.

Stopes clinic. We'll MLAs back legislative change? If there was a

:03:18.:03:22.

free vote next week, they would support legislative change. Sinn

:03:23.:03:29.

Fein's policy to support abortion in cases of beetle at the martyr. We

:03:30.:03:31.

will not see a petition of concern coming from them. -- fatal foetal

:03:32.:03:40.

abnormality. If Arlene Foster allows a free vote in her Assembly, we

:03:41.:03:43.

might see the amendment going through. I do not think she will

:03:44.:03:47.

allow a free vote at this stage in advance of an election. I think she

:03:48.:03:50.

will want to keep the party tight and make sure that there is no

:03:51.:03:54.

strange moves coming from the DUP and that when people come to the

:03:55.:04:00.

polls later in May, they know that. There are many public

:04:01.:04:03.

representatives and members of the public who take the view that there

:04:04.:04:05.

should not be abortion in any circumstances and that includes

:04:06.:04:10.

sexual crime or foetal foetal up the Marty. Sure. What opinion poll after

:04:11.:04:18.

opinion poll shows that people want to see legislative change. -- fatal

:04:19.:04:21.

foetal abnormality. If you believe some of the polls -

:04:22.:04:34.

and we're not much inclined to these days - those arguing for Britain

:04:35.:04:36.

to leave the EU could be ahead of those who want us

:04:37.:04:40.

to remain a member. If true, it can't have much to do

:04:41.:04:42.

with the unity shown by those jostling to be picked

:04:43.:04:45.

as the official, designated leave campaign, as they've spent all week

:04:46.:04:49.

fighting like ferrets in a sack. UKIP MP Douglas Carswell

:04:50.:04:56.

was speaking to Andrew Marr earlier about one of the newer leave groups,

:04:57.:04:59.

called Grassroots Out or GO for short, which is

:05:00.:05:02.

hoping to be chosen. I was out at the weekend

:05:03.:05:06.

and the weekend before We've got a great ground

:05:07.:05:11.

game in Vote Leave. We've delivered

:05:12.:05:14.

millions of leaflets. I'm not going to be

:05:15.:05:16.

disrespectful of any They're led by people

:05:17.:05:19.

who've done this before. And I think what's important

:05:20.:05:23.

is that we make sure that people realise that David Cameron's

:05:24.:05:26.

deal is pretty duff. Well, Peter Bone is one

:05:27.:05:36.

of the MPs behind GO. Why should you get the official

:05:37.:05:52.

designation? Were not united and still 37, 43%, but it looks good,

:05:53.:06:00.

there are 42 grassroot campaigns made up of different people, and I

:06:01.:06:13.

think who should get designation, it is an establishment view that you

:06:14.:06:18.

have to have a top-down organisation like BSE, imposed from the top,

:06:19.:06:26.

there was nobody going out on the February morning is knocking on

:06:27.:06:30.

doors, there are 42 campaigns so this is from the grassroots up. It

:06:31.:06:39.

is not another campaigning organisation bringing everyone

:06:40.:06:41.

together and they still have independence. With this umbrella

:06:42.:06:47.

stop you from knocking each other? Aaron Banks, he has put money into

:06:48.:06:54.

Grassroots Out? It is funded by a number of individuals. Conservative

:06:55.:07:04.

donors... Here's one of them and he said that people in vote leave where

:07:05.:07:09.

two of the nastiest individuals I ever had the misfortune to leave.

:07:10.:07:19.

Kate Hoey, voting to quit. She is also voting for Vote Leave. Let us

:07:20.:07:29.

bring everyone together, this has to stop, last week whenever we had 100

:07:30.:07:34.

people from all of the different groups and parties working together,

:07:35.:07:39.

why cannot we get that at the top? One happy family working under the

:07:40.:07:45.

grassroots movement. You have that bright Grassroots Out tie on. This

:07:46.:07:51.

picture has more than just a tie on it. One of your colleagues,

:07:52.:07:58.

launching the campaign with the Union Jack jacket. People might

:07:59.:08:05.

remember the John Redwood leadership campaign would wonder if politicians

:08:06.:08:08.

want to be seen on the same platform as that? People are going out across

:08:09.:08:17.

the country, campaigning to come out of the EU. Not looking like that,

:08:18.:08:24.

looking like me! No, they don't want to look like me! Is this just

:08:25.:08:33.

journalist from? The poll has them ahead? The Electoral Commission in

:08:34.:08:39.

the next few weeks will have to designate one of these groups as the

:08:40.:08:45.

main out and in group and both sides are fighting like bad. The danger

:08:46.:08:51.

for the leaving camp is the group to win this referendum will be the

:08:52.:08:56.

group that wins the argument that it represents the safest option and the

:08:57.:09:00.

losing group will be portrayed as the riskiest. People like Douglas

:09:01.:09:05.

Carswell or deeply fearful of Nigel Farage as one of the main figures on

:09:06.:09:09.

the outside because in a good day he can get 30% of the electorate and

:09:10.:09:14.

that is why Grassroots Out is established, because the Aaron Banks

:09:15.:09:25.

group, he is funding the other group which has cross-party support and

:09:26.:09:31.

that will be important. Vote Leave, the more stable, steady safer option

:09:32.:09:36.

is now struggling on the cross-party option, particularly in that box.

:09:37.:09:46.

How do you know all that) it is also quite true. Why are you talking

:09:47.:09:53.

about the personalities and the policies and that is a reflection

:09:54.:09:57.

of, when we talk about policies people would enter a coma. Neither

:09:58.:10:05.

side has key messages, I don't think you could stop 100 people in the

:10:06.:10:08.

street and one could tell you anything that was in this and that

:10:09.:10:12.

is why we talk about personalities. We are doing our best! We have

:10:13.:10:19.

always exaggerated the importance of campaigns on election results and

:10:20.:10:22.

referendums and last I was told that because of Labour's assiduous work

:10:23.:10:28.

at ground level they would end up counteracting disadvantages like

:10:29.:10:33.

leadership and economic credibility so I have never believed that the

:10:34.:10:38.

internal rivalry would really hold them back and recent opinion polls

:10:39.:10:41.

have stood up to that. What really goes on their favour is the nature

:10:42.:10:45.

of the deal that David Cameron extracted last week because it is

:10:46.:10:52.

less impressive than was instigated in the Bloomberg speech and it will

:10:53.:10:56.

have to fight the referendum on the existing terms of membership and I

:10:57.:11:02.

think he can win that but he would have gone into the last four months

:11:03.:11:06.

of this campaign with something drastically different and not

:11:07.:11:11.

cosmetically different. That is right, the fundamental issues will

:11:12.:11:16.

be debated and we are all innovative this Westminster bubble thinking

:11:17.:11:19.

that Joe Bloggs says this and it matters but on the street, nobody

:11:20.:11:26.

can name any of these campaigns and the simple question is, in or out

:11:27.:11:30.

were undecided? That is what we're finding and a lot of people are

:11:31.:11:34.

undecided who say we have not heard the arguments and we clearly have to

:11:35.:11:40.

get our message out on leaving and that does concern emigration and

:11:41.:11:43.

controlling borders but also the fact that we pay 55th -- ?55 million

:11:44.:11:48.

every week to Europe and get nothing. You get half of that act.

:11:49.:11:56.

We don't. You do! We get a bit of that back. They decide how we spend

:11:57.:12:04.

it. You get it back as a rebate and you also get it back in funding from

:12:05.:12:12.

the EU? The facts will matter. How many billions of pounds each week

:12:13.:12:18.

goes to the EU that we have no control over? You said the gross

:12:19.:12:22.

figures... The net figure is about half of that. It is not. If you go

:12:23.:12:30.

into the detail I can assure you it is. Can you win this without any

:12:31.:12:35.

front person? Behead Minister of is heading up the game campaign. If he

:12:36.:12:41.

does not get what he wants he will be heading up the Grassroots Out

:12:42.:12:49.

campaign. -- I will be. You are not holding your breath. Who should be

:12:50.:12:54.

heading up your side? I don't want any figurehead. Who would debate

:12:55.:12:59.

with the Prime Minister? It depends on the issues. In or out, how about

:13:00.:13:06.

that? If you are talking about dozens, a businessman, trade unions,

:13:07.:13:13.

somebody from Labour Leave. Belgian rambler that a government... I will

:13:14.:13:20.

have to stop you expect thanks to all of the guests.

:13:21.:13:23.

Join us next Sunday at 11, when we'll be taking stock

:13:24.:13:25.

made by the Conservatives at last year's election and asking

:13:26.:13:30.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:31.:13:34.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers look at the current state of the European Union renegotiations with Eric Pickles, and debate the question of sovereignty in the EU with George Galloway and Stephen Kinnock. Andrew also speaks to the Shadow Leader of the House of Lords, Baroness Smith, about government plans to alter union funding of the Labour Party. Keeping Andrew company throughout the show are Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, the Guardian's Nick Watt and Helen Lewis from the New Statesman.


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