31/01/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


31/01/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by shadow chancellor John McDonnell, Steve Baker, Lord Digby Jones and businessman Richard Reed.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 31/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

George Osborne called it a "major success".

:00:41.:00:43.

Google say they're paying what's due.

:00:44.:00:46.

But Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell's not impressed -

:00:47.:00:48.

we'll ask him how he'd get big business to pay more tax.

:00:49.:00:51.

David Cameron says he wants an emergency brake on access

:00:52.:00:57.

to welfare benefits for EU migrants to be applied immediately

:00:58.:01:01.

But will that be enough for the PM to clinch a deal and head

:01:02.:01:07.

And coming up here... if we stay in or we get out?

:01:08.:01:14.

As MLAs prepare to vote to make changes

:01:15.:01:16.

at the Assembly, not everyone's happy.

:01:17.:01:18.

We'll hear from the man behind the Opposition Bill,

:01:19.:01:20.

plus the Alliance Party and the SDLP.

:01:21.:01:21.

And taking time out from their protracted negotiations

:01:22.:01:35.

with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over how much tax

:01:36.:01:37.

they should pay on their enormous fees - the best and the brightest

:01:38.:01:42.

political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

:01:43.:01:45.

and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:46.:01:50.

First this morning, George Osborne hailed Google's back tax bill

:01:51.:01:53.

Since then the settlement's been condemned as too lenient by -

:01:54.:01:59.

among others - Boris Johnson, The Sun, Rupert Murdoch

:02:00.:02:02.

and the Labour Party, which has accused the Chancellor

:02:03.:02:05.

of offering the internet giant "mates' rates".

:02:06.:02:08.

In a moment, I'll be talking to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

:02:09.:02:11.

First here's Google executive, Peter Barron, defending the company

:02:12.:02:14.

on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

:02:15.:02:19.

What I would say is that in the UK we pay corporation tax at 20%.

:02:20.:02:22.

It's absolutely the same corporation tax rate as everybody else,

:02:23.:02:27.

Yes, but you keep coming back to this point about sales.

:02:28.:02:34.

We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the activities,

:02:35.:02:37.

the economic activities of Google UK.

:02:38.:02:39.

So, we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20%,

:02:40.:02:43.

and, actually, globally, our effective tax rate over the last

:02:44.:02:49.

five years or so is round about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate,

:02:50.:02:53.

And I'm joined now by the Shadow Chancellor,

:02:54.:03:01.

Welcome. What single step would you take to make sure that companies

:03:02.:03:14.

like Google, Apple, Amazon, pay a fair and appropriate level of tax?

:03:15.:03:20.

Openness and transparency. I want the information about how this deal

:03:21.:03:23.

has been arrived at and I want them to publish in the future there tax

:03:24.:03:31.

records. So that we can have openness and transparency, see what

:03:32.:03:35.

is fair. The Chancellor said this was a major success. But we cannot

:03:36.:03:39.

tell because we have not got the information. Would you extend that

:03:40.:03:46.

to British major companies publishing their tax? Six out of ten

:03:47.:03:50.

of the UK's biggest companies are not paying any corporation tax. Yes,

:03:51.:03:56.

I would. The suggestion has been put forward about the FTSE 100. That is

:03:57.:04:01.

a good idea. There would be no commercial disadvantage. Do you

:04:02.:04:08.

think that transparency would be a major step forward? It is one step

:04:09.:04:13.

forward. We want country by country reporting as well. I supported

:04:14.:04:17.

George Osborne on as negotiations in Europe with that. We're not going to

:04:18.:04:22.

get enough. I found quite angry making this morning that we have

:04:23.:04:27.

allegation -- allegations that their Conservatives were voting their MEPs

:04:28.:04:30.

to vote against this. I find that frustrating. I want HMRC to be

:04:31.:04:37.

properly resourced so they can do the job. There are too many job

:04:38.:04:42.

cuts. We have lost too much expertise. There is time now to

:04:43.:04:45.

start thinking about how we review our tax system. The Treasury select

:04:46.:04:54.

committee has undertaken a review. Corporation tax is levied on

:04:55.:04:58.

profits. Even if you got your transparency, you would quickly find

:04:59.:05:01.

that the concept of profits that can be moved around geographically, they

:05:02.:05:06.

can be manipulated depending on costs, would you consider replacing

:05:07.:05:13.

corporation tax with, for example, a tax on corporate sales? Revenues are

:05:14.:05:17.

less malleable than profits. That is one of the issues to be addressed.

:05:18.:05:20.

Nigel Lawson has done an article to that effect. One of the most

:05:21.:05:28.

important things is to secure international agreement. We cannot

:05:29.:05:31.

have the situation where companies are shopping around the world to

:05:32.:05:35.

find the lowest tax regime and inventing company structures to

:05:36.:05:39.

enable that to happen. But if you had a tax on the revenues, it would

:05:40.:05:43.

not happen what they moved around. Revenues are revenues. You would

:05:44.:05:49.

levy a tax on the revenues in the UK. That is why it is worth looking

:05:50.:05:54.

at. It might be a combination of that and economic activity as well.

:05:55.:06:00.

One professor said if you raise corporate taxes too high, companies

:06:01.:06:03.

may move to island macro or elsewhere. Do you accept there has

:06:04.:06:09.

to be a limit? There has to be a limit, there has to be some

:06:10.:06:13.

reasonableness. If we can get international cooperation, you can

:06:14.:06:16.

avoid this development of virtual tax havens taking place. Would you

:06:17.:06:22.

want a common rate of corporation tax? Not necessarily. You would like

:06:23.:06:28.

to make sure that what you charge is reasonable and fair and you would

:06:29.:06:31.

expect those companies to abide by that. I listened to the Google

:06:32.:06:37.

representative this morning. The reputational damage to Google is

:06:38.:06:41.

immense. The savings they have made in taxes not worth the reputational

:06:42.:06:46.

damage. Let's move on to the other big issue, Europe. And membership.

:06:47.:06:56.

How did you vote in the 1975 referendum? Against. In the 1983

:06:57.:07:05.

Labour manifesto it claimed that a commitment to radical socialist

:07:06.:07:07.

policies was incompatible with membership of the European Union. It

:07:08.:07:13.

proposed withdrawal. Did you agree with that at the time? I did at the

:07:14.:07:19.

time. That is long gone. We're within Europe. We are working within

:07:20.:07:29.

Europe with other parties to see how we can make Europe fair,

:07:30.:07:29.

particularly with regard to the rights of workers. Take this tax

:07:30.:07:34.

issue. We need to be in Europe to ensure we can secure fair agreement

:07:35.:07:46.

on tax. That is why, by remaining within, we have got to remain within

:07:47.:07:50.

with their own reform agenda, that is one of the issues we need to

:07:51.:07:54.

reform. To take that phrase radical socialist policies, you are

:07:55.:07:58.

committed to radical socialist policies. How is that now compatible

:07:59.:08:07.

with remaining in the EU when it was not in 1983? Because we have

:08:08.:08:11.

demonstrated with the work we have undertaken within the EU that we

:08:12.:08:15.

have secured some benefits. Employment rights. In addition,

:08:16.:08:19.

there are real opportunities now where we can work with others to

:08:20.:08:22.

secure that radical change. Withdrawal from Europe at the moment

:08:23.:08:26.

would not be beneficial. It would lose jobs. It would undermine the

:08:27.:08:30.

benefits we have gained in terms of employment. That is why we want to

:08:31.:08:34.

work to reform it. The issue that I have got with the Prime Minister, we

:08:35.:08:39.

will see what he comes back with... On the social Europe issue, you want

:08:40.:08:45.

a more social Europe. In France you have got a socialist government that

:08:46.:08:49.

has moved to the right. In Germany, a centre-right government. Other

:08:50.:08:55.

countries have either the hard right in power or the hard right at the

:08:56.:08:59.

top of the polls. Where is your social Europe in that? That is why

:09:00.:09:04.

we will work with socialist and social Democrats. I think you will

:09:05.:09:12.

see in the coming years that a wider debate is taking place. In some way

:09:13.:09:15.

the referendum debate will enable us to then look at those ideas.

:09:16.:09:21.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that like Jeremy Corbyn, you are pretty

:09:22.:09:27.

lukewarm about our membership of the European Union? I signed up to

:09:28.:09:33.

remain within the EU. That does not mean to say that we accepted as a

:09:34.:09:39.

perfect institution. We want to see reform. I come back to the tax

:09:40.:09:44.

issue. Unless we get international cooperation, particularly across

:09:45.:09:48.

Europe, we will not solve this problem. You have got a Eurosceptic

:09:49.:09:55.

track record. Kate Hoey, a leader -- leading Labour Eurosceptic, she said

:09:56.:09:59.

that you and Jeremy Corbyn consistently voted with Eurosceptic

:10:00.:10:05.

MPs on the EU. That is true, isn't it? On a number of issues, because

:10:06.:10:09.

we were frustrated with the slow pace of reform. That does not mean

:10:10.:10:13.

we are in favour of coming out. It is better to argue from within to

:10:14.:10:19.

secure a commonality of agreement. Do you broadly support the changes

:10:20.:10:22.

that David Cameron is trying to renegotiate? I don't know what they

:10:23.:10:28.

are yet. Let's see what he comes back with. My fear is if he does not

:10:29.:10:33.

treat this issue seriously and it is just about party management, he

:10:34.:10:37.

could blow it. We could be outside of Europe and have the economic

:10:38.:10:42.

penalties as a result. Even if he comes back with something you do not

:10:43.:10:47.

regard as satisfactory, you will campaign to stay in? We will

:10:48.:10:53.

campaign for our own agenda. The government wants to get this done by

:10:54.:10:57.

the end of June. Will you cooperate with that timetable? We will see

:10:58.:11:03.

what he comes back with. Let's have it as soon as possible. We want the

:11:04.:11:08.

debate to take place. Delaying it would not help. We want the debate

:11:09.:11:11.

to start now. It would be better for him to come back fairly soon. Get

:11:12.:11:18.

the debate going. Even if the campaign overlaps with important

:11:19.:11:22.

elections in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Wales? That is the

:11:23.:11:26.

problem but it will overlap with something. Immigration is good to be

:11:27.:11:31.

a huge issue. The IMF says that almost 4 million immigrants will

:11:32.:11:35.

arrive in the EU between 2015 and 2017. Almost 4 million. Should

:11:36.:11:42.

Britain take a fair share of that? I think is important we cooperate with

:11:43.:11:47.

our European partners to make that we can accommodate those that need

:11:48.:11:51.

to come to this country. In addition, that we have systems in

:11:52.:11:55.

place that protect wages, so that immigration is not used to undermine

:11:56.:12:00.

wages. But should we take a fair share of the 4 million? I think we

:12:01.:12:03.

should. We should cooperate with others and carry the burden. The

:12:04.:12:10.

majority of Britons want us to rise to it and ensure we assist others

:12:11.:12:14.

and that others are not suffering, and that we do not stand on one side

:12:15.:12:18.

when people suffer. Could you give an indication of how many? Young not

:12:19.:12:26.

at this stage. That would be a matter to negotiate with our

:12:27.:12:30.

European partners. Should we volunteered to be part of the EU

:12:31.:12:37.

quotas system? Mrs Merkel and others want 160,000 to be relocated through

:12:38.:12:40.

Schengen. Should we be part of Schengen? Should we be part of the

:12:41.:12:47.

160,000? We should be doing more in terms of assisting refugees coming

:12:48.:12:52.

from Syria. We should be doing more to help those in desperate need.

:12:53.:12:56.

People are drowning in the Mediterranean. We cannot stand

:12:57.:13:02.

aside. This country has a history of receiving refugees. People watching

:13:03.:13:06.

this would want some sort of idea of numbers because numbers are

:13:07.:13:11.

important. It is important. That is why we need to get into these

:13:12.:13:15.

negotiations quickly and come back with practical proposals. In 2013

:13:16.:13:20.

you told a gathering of the people's assembly at a rally on immigration

:13:21.:13:27.

that they should be open borders? I was arguing then... There was

:13:28.:13:32.

re-search looking at the long-term structure of the globe. Inevitably

:13:33.:13:35.

in this century we will have open borders. The movement of peoples

:13:36.:13:40.

across the globe will mean that borders will almost become

:13:41.:13:43.

irrelevant by the end of the century. We should be preparing for

:13:44.:13:49.

that and explaining why people move. Conflicts, poverty and destitution,

:13:50.:13:54.

and also climate change. In our policy-making we should be working

:13:55.:13:57.

now to see how we address that. It will mean that we need to look at

:13:58.:14:01.

how we resolve conflicts, how we make the world more equal and also

:14:02.:14:06.

how we tackle climate change. In that way we can deal with the

:14:07.:14:11.

reality of the world, which means that people are not forced to move

:14:12.:14:15.

but there will be movement. Total open borders? At the end of this

:14:16.:14:20.

century that is what will occur. People are ignoring borders already

:14:21.:14:24.

as they fly from Syria. We should be making sure that if there is no

:14:25.:14:27.

forced movement, we look at the push and pull factors. Conflict

:14:28.:14:34.

prevention, the tackling of inequality and policies that tackle

:14:35.:14:38.

climate change. In that way we can cope with the global pressures with

:14:39.:14:44.

regard to population movement. To do that, for a Labour government to

:14:45.:14:49.

prepare for that, would be loosening controls as you move towards that?

:14:50.:14:54.

No. What I am saying is if you look at the analysis of what is happening

:14:55.:14:59.

over the next 75 years, the movement of people is such that borders are

:15:00.:15:03.

very difficult to maintain. That will happen by the end of the

:15:04.:15:07.

century. We should be opening up the debate of how we handle that. One of

:15:08.:15:11.

the issues we have to tackle is why people are moving. It is about

:15:12.:15:16.

conflict and climate change. It is about poverty as well. That means

:15:17.:15:20.

greater equality not just in our country but across the globe. I

:15:21.:15:25.

wanted to talk to you about Google and the EU. I hope you will come

:15:26.:15:29.

back and give me an interview on economic policy. Let me finish with

:15:30.:15:37.

a taster? Back to Professor Blanchflower, he said about you and

:15:38.:15:42.

Mr Corbyn that you have to accept the realities of capitalism and

:15:43.:15:47.

modern markets, like it or not. No more silly stuff about companies not

:15:48.:15:52.

being able to pay dividends if they do not do X or Y. Do you accept

:15:53.:15:58.

that? That is why I appointed him as an advisor. I wanted objective

:15:59.:16:04.

advice. I have established the architecture for the future

:16:05.:16:04.

development of economic policy. Are you going to accept his advice

:16:05.:16:16.

on that? We will listen to his advice and take it on board. But we

:16:17.:16:20.

will also listen to other advisers. But those advisers, what's the point

:16:21.:16:27.

of them if you will not listen? We will test every policy we put

:16:28.:16:31.

forward. On that one, we are hoping that we would avoid any need for

:16:32.:16:34.

that by introducing as we come into covenant a real living wage. In the

:16:35.:16:39.

meantime, we want to campaign with shareholders so they pressurise

:16:40.:16:43.

their companies to abide by a real living wage. I think there is an

:16:44.:16:47.

alliance to be built there. Is it party policy that if companies don't

:16:48.:16:51.

pay what you regard as a living wage, until it's made mandatory,

:16:52.:16:54.

that they shouldn't be allowed to pay dividends? it's one of ideas we

:16:55.:17:00.

have floated for discussion. We have put it to the economic advisers to

:17:01.:17:05.

get their view. Angela Eagle said it's unworkable. That's why it's

:17:06.:17:09.

open for discussion. It's a really good campaigning tool for us to work

:17:10.:17:13.

with shareholders to make sure they exert their influence to ensure

:17:14.:17:17.

their companies, on things like the living wage and paying their taxes

:17:18.:17:21.

as well, to make sure their companies are acting appropriately.

:17:22.:17:24.

John McDonnell, I hope you come back to continue the debate with us. I

:17:25.:17:26.

certainly well. So, David Cameron once dismissed

:17:27.:17:29.

the idea of an emergency This morning, Downing Street

:17:30.:17:31.

is indicating that a brake on welfare benefits for EU

:17:32.:17:35.

migrants might be acceptable if it was applied immediately,

:17:36.:17:37.

but only as a stop-gap measure. This evening, the Prime Minister

:17:38.:17:40.

meets EU Council President Donald Tusk as he tries to broker a deal

:17:41.:17:43.

ahead of a crunch summit of European leaders next month -

:17:44.:17:49.

but will the fractious leave campaigns be in any position to take

:17:50.:17:54.

advantage if he's seen to fail? Right now the future of Britain

:17:55.:17:56.

inside or outside the European Union You might think it started here

:17:57.:18:03.

in Brussels, or that the media's massed ranks are awaiting

:18:04.:18:12.

the outcome in the European Parliament in Strasbourg,

:18:13.:18:17.

or that we are hovering with baited breath for a decision

:18:18.:18:19.

in our own Parliament, but no. This week the decision was made

:18:20.:18:22.

in Havering, in Essex. In this chamber right now,

:18:23.:18:28.

Havering councillors are debating If they do, of course nothing

:18:29.:18:31.

will change, because the smart among you know, no council,

:18:32.:18:37.

not even the British Parliament, Nevertheless Havering Council

:18:38.:18:40.

deliberately didn't deliberate on the leisure centre

:18:41.:18:48.

or meals on wheels. However the Prime Minister meanwhile

:18:49.:18:53.

was hurrying for a deal on wheels - not with councillors,

:18:54.:18:56.

but with 27 EU member states. It's his plan to block in-work

:18:57.:19:05.

benefits for EU migrants for four years that's getting

:19:06.:19:08.

the bumpiest ride. The EU counter proposal

:19:09.:19:10.

of an an "emergency brake" on access to benefits - if a country can prove

:19:11.:19:12.

it's welfare system's under strain - has not gone down well

:19:13.:19:16.

with Eurosceptics back home. They are saying we are

:19:17.:19:18.

allowed to go to Brussels, and ask their permission

:19:19.:19:25.

to change the benefit rules, David Cameron still wants that

:19:26.:19:28.

benefit ban, and knows accepting the emergency brake as is would only

:19:29.:19:34.

accelerate any campaign to leave. We want to end the idea

:19:35.:19:38.

of something for nothing. It's not good enough,

:19:39.:19:41.

it needs more work, I believe we've got to put

:19:42.:19:47.

country before party, country before personality, vote

:19:48.:19:54.

for freedom, and vote for leave. In Havering they aren't waiting

:19:55.:19:56.

for a date or a settlement. The Prime Minster knows Brexit

:19:57.:20:02.

supporters are eyeing his own Cabinet to see who might be tempted

:20:03.:20:05.

do the same. Michael Gove might come

:20:06.:20:08.

out for leave. Boris Johnson, though

:20:09.:20:12.

it's rather doubtful, might just possibly come out

:20:13.:20:18.

for leave, to vote for leave. Theresa May, who almost

:20:19.:20:20.

certainly is preoccupied And finally, Sajid Javid,

:20:21.:20:22.

the Business Secretary, who has the most

:20:23.:20:27.

Eurosceptic record of all. But it's very difficult,

:20:28.:20:31.

when you are a government minister, and you've got real feelings

:20:32.:20:33.

of loyalty to your party and your Prime Minister,

:20:34.:20:35.

to depart from the line. And a lot of pressure,

:20:36.:20:39.

moral pressure, if you like, A Havering Borough MP thinks that

:20:40.:20:43.

kind of pressure is wrong. I think that this is a decision

:20:44.:20:53.

that we all have to make And it shouldn't impede

:20:54.:20:56.

on people's political careers. People should be able

:20:57.:21:00.

to make up their own minds, and not worry about whether they are

:21:01.:21:03.

going to be sidelined or punished Those who do out themselves for out,

:21:04.:21:06.

will need campaign wizards who can Which, of two battling groups,

:21:07.:21:12.

that is yet undecided, but so far both have seen a bad

:21:13.:21:18.

spell of personality clashes and darkening moods way over

:21:19.:21:23.

the heads of most grassroots The chance of winning over

:21:24.:21:26.

undeclared MPs is the magic What we did discover,

:21:27.:21:30.

it's like the dementors slowly sucking the people up out

:21:31.:21:40.

of the air, body I do think that there will be

:21:41.:21:44.

a coming together now, probably for very good reasons,

:21:45.:21:47.

there have been divisions But I think this campaign will not

:21:48.:21:50.

be just politicians. It's about the people

:21:51.:21:53.

versus the elite in many ways. In fact, you have a referendum

:21:54.:21:55.

really in many ways when politicians Meanwhile back in Havering...

:21:56.:21:58.

is they want to do. party motion is therefore

:21:59.:22:01.

carried by 30 votes to 15. So, councillors in Havering have

:22:02.:22:07.

voted for a motion that says Now, there are plenty of councillors

:22:08.:22:11.

who said they don't have any business debating this,

:22:12.:22:19.

they have far more important things But what it might show

:22:20.:22:22.

is that for some people - and in this case,

:22:23.:22:26.

an official elected body - never mind what the date is,

:22:27.:22:29.

and never mind the renegotiation, they would like to make

:22:30.:22:33.

clear their views right now. I'm joined now by the Conservative

:22:34.:22:40.

MP, Steve Baker, co-chairman of Conservatives for Britain

:22:41.:22:43.

and a director of the Vote Leave If the Prime Minister can get an

:22:44.:22:53.

agreement that there will be a break in welfare payments for migrants the

:22:54.:22:57.

day after the referendum, isn't that a powerful thing to take to the

:22:58.:23:02.

country? It's not powerful at all. Bernard Jenkin is the Conservative

:23:03.:23:06.

director of Vote Leave, but we have been told by the OBR that it

:23:07.:23:09.

wouldn't make much difference even if the Prime Minister got this

:23:10.:23:13.

break. They would only take one case brought forward by activist lawyers,

:23:14.:23:17.

and we would expect the European Court of Justice to strike down such

:23:18.:23:22.

a measure. We think it's a red herring, and as John Redwood said, a

:23:23.:23:26.

bad joke. They have ended up trying to manufacture the appearance of

:23:27.:23:30.

success out of very little. As things stand at the moment, there's

:23:31.:23:33.

nothing the Prime Minister would bring back that would make you want

:23:34.:23:37.

to stay in? I've been clear through the whole period that most of us

:23:38.:23:41.

want to end the supremacy of the EU in the UK. Make our own laws in

:23:42.:23:45.

Parliament. The prime ministers had something similar about the European

:23:46.:23:51.

Court of Human Rights. Demanding an opt out from the charter is subbing

:23:52.:23:54.

the Prime Minister has had to give up. So money inconsistencies. The

:23:55.:24:00.

answer is no. I expect a good number of colleagues to join me and

:24:01.:24:04.

campaign to leave at this stage. How many Tory MPs will campaign for out?

:24:05.:24:11.

Of the 150 on the list who have expressed interest, and about a

:24:12.:24:15.

fifth have made up their minds, I think about 50-70. No more than 50

:24:16.:24:24.

or 70 Tory MPs campaigning on your side of the referendum to leave?

:24:25.:24:28.

That would be my expectation at this stage. John McDonnell said he wanted

:24:29.:24:32.

to get this out of the wear it, the referendum. Didn't sound to me like

:24:33.:24:37.

Labour would join with the SNP on delaying tactics for the referendum.

:24:38.:24:41.

Would you like the referendum to be later? Realistically we are

:24:42.:24:46.

campaigning out to leave the EU and we have secured our objectives for

:24:47.:24:49.

the campaign. But there is a good case to be made that a June date

:24:50.:24:55.

would trust us. There are elections in neigh, and I think there's a good

:24:56.:25:04.

case for a delay until September. I would prefer the government brought

:25:05.:25:07.

forward a measure that went through the Commons without a row, but if

:25:08.:25:11.

Labour and the SNP and conservative colleagues wish to put something

:25:12.:25:15.

through, then we will be able to what's the biggest beach from the --

:25:16.:25:22.

beast on the cabinet you would like to get? I haven't ruled anybody out.

:25:23.:25:28.

But I'm happy to go into the campaign without any Cabinet big

:25:29.:25:31.

beasts. It would be surprised this point if Chris Grayling didn't join

:25:32.:25:38.

us. He would count as a big beast, leader of the house. People know

:25:39.:25:45.

which Cabinet members are discussed. Theresa May? She made a speech on

:25:46.:25:55.

immigration which would be difficult to recalibrate with the EU. It's a

:25:56.:26:01.

matter for her. You've given up on Bryce Johnson? He occasionally

:26:02.:26:03.

flirts with it in the press. But he's a typical conservative, he

:26:04.:26:10.

loves Europe, he would like Europe to be different, but we'll see what

:26:11.:26:15.

he does when the comes. The different leave campaigns, it's

:26:16.:26:23.

flawed with blood, when will you stop knocking lumps out of each

:26:24.:26:27.

other? I'm not knocking lumps out of anybody and I regret this week that

:26:28.:26:31.

we've had distractions from the core aim of leaving the EU and I regret

:26:32.:26:35.

they have got their way to the press. Everybody involved needs to

:26:36.:26:39.

reach a resolution, everybody involved wants to move on and I hope

:26:40.:26:43.

we do so quickly, let's fight a winning campaign. You are not the

:26:44.:26:48.

director of Vote Leave but you are on the Parliamentary planning

:26:49.:26:51.

committee for Vote Leave, so you are associated. Did you agree with the

:26:52.:26:55.

attempts to get rid of the two full-time people running it, Dominic

:26:56.:26:58.

Cummings and Matthew Elliott? This is a matter for the board. Do you

:26:59.:27:03.

agree with whether they should have gone? At this stage it's very late

:27:04.:27:07.

in the day to make such a profound change. But given the severe

:27:08.:27:19.

concerns of my colleagues, it is clear there will have to be material

:27:20.:27:21.

changes in Vote Leave in order to carry parliamentarians with the

:27:22.:27:23.

campaign. What this material change mean? There has to be a greater

:27:24.:27:26.

degree of involvement with planetary and so they think they are shaping

:27:27.:27:29.

the campaign to win over those voters we need. Will there be a

:27:30.:27:34.

merger in the end? Surely that's what all of you need, you are up

:27:35.:27:39.

against the government, is huge machine, don't you need to be

:27:40.:27:43.

united? It's a David and Goliath battle and we need to be united. The

:27:44.:27:49.

process of unity will come through designation. Realistically, leave.

:27:50.:27:52.

EU is looking at the Courville, where as Vote Leave knows we need

:27:53.:28:00.

the swing vote. -- looking at the core vote. I'm confident that Vote

:28:01.:28:04.

Leave can and will win the referendum. I wouldn't give away the

:28:05.:28:10.

mop in case there is more blood to wipe up.

:28:11.:28:13.

One of David Cameron's four key demands in his EU

:28:14.:28:15.

renegotiation concerns competitiveness.

:28:16.:28:18.

The Prime Minister says the burden of regulation on businesses is too

:28:19.:28:21.

high, and that the EU needs to strengthen the single market

:28:22.:28:24.

and accelerate trade agreements with America and China.

:28:25.:28:26.

Arguments about the economic costs or benefits of membership will form

:28:27.:28:29.

a large part of the referendum campaign, with both sides keen

:28:30.:28:32.

Those campaigning to remain within the EU say our membership

:28:33.:28:38.

is worth ?3000 to every household in Britain.

:28:39.:28:41.

It's based on a CBI claim that the UK's economy is 5% bigger

:28:42.:28:48.

They also claim that 3 million jobs are linked

:28:49.:28:55.

to trade within the EU, that 45% of UK exports of goods

:28:56.:28:58.

and services go to the EU, and that the value of

:28:59.:29:03.

trade with the EU is ?133 billion higher than it would be if we left.

:29:04.:29:08.

Those who argue we would be better off if we left claim that

:29:09.:29:17.

regulations imposed on business by the EU cost over

:29:18.:29:19.

They say the 3 million figure on jobs is

:29:20.:29:24.

dependent on trade with the EU, not membership.

:29:25.:29:27.

They argue that the trade would continue if we voted to leave,

:29:28.:29:30.

because we currently import more than we export from the EU.

:29:31.:29:32.

So its members would want free trade to remain.

:29:33.:29:36.

They further point out that the importance of UK trade

:29:37.:29:39.

They cite ONS figures showing that the proportion

:29:40.:29:46.

of UK exports heading for the EU fell from 54.8% in 1999

:29:47.:29:49.

But an analysis by the House of Commons Library in 2013

:29:50.:29:59.

of numerous studies into the economic

:30:00.:30:02.

impact of EU membership found no consensus either way,

:30:03.:30:05.

So, which side will manage to convince voters?

:30:06.:30:13.

I'm joined now by the former trade minister Digby Jones

:30:14.:30:15.

and Richard Reed, who founded Innocent Smoothies,

:30:16.:30:18.

who is campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU.

:30:19.:30:20.

Welcome. Digby Jones, the EU accounts for 45% of our exports. Why

:30:21.:30:32.

would you risk any of that? That will not change. Because in the

:30:33.:30:38.

morning after any referendum result, Germany, it is pivotal on Germany,

:30:39.:30:44.

would immediately want some form of tariff free arrangement with

:30:45.:30:48.

Britain. They make a million cars they sell in Britain a year. 75 to

:30:49.:30:55.

80% of all the trains in this country are built in Dusseldorf. We

:30:56.:31:01.

do not know for sure? No. Germany does it and the others follow. There

:31:02.:31:07.

are many arguments to stay in. But the one thing we should kill now is

:31:08.:31:14.

that not one job in Britain is at risk because of EU membership. Not

:31:15.:31:19.

one. There would be a free-trade agreement because we are so

:31:20.:31:24.

important to Europe. And by the way that does not mean there are not

:31:25.:31:28.

other reasons why not -- why we might not want to be in or out. I

:31:29.:31:32.

get so frustrated when people talk about jobs at risk. It is rubbish.

:31:33.:31:38.

That is very easy thing to call total nonsense. It is clear that if

:31:39.:31:43.

your biggest market is suddenly interfered with, that it will not

:31:44.:31:48.

somehow affect trade, does not make sense. You know more than most

:31:49.:31:50.

people that businesses need certainty. What we have right now is

:31:51.:31:56.

unfettered access to the largest market in the world. The fact that

:31:57.:32:00.

we want to start playing around with this and that is good for business,

:32:01.:32:04.

it does not make sense. I do not see the added value in belonging to a

:32:05.:32:09.

club that fetters small businesses in this country every day.

:32:10.:32:23.

I am a small business. I have done it for years. This is a colossal

:32:24.:32:32.

opportunity. If you are an entrepreneur in the UK. You're

:32:33.:32:38.

making it sound like it makes it more difficult. It makes it much

:32:39.:32:42.

easier because it is one set of regulations and 500 million

:32:43.:32:48.

consumers. If you have a shop, would you want 60 million people walk by

:32:49.:32:55.

our 500 million people walk by? You can achieve that through a

:32:56.:32:59.

free-trade agreement. You get the sales prevention team in Brussels

:33:00.:33:01.

marching valiantly towards 1970, trying to save this is how you will

:33:02.:33:10.

lead your small business in Hartlepool. But we all know that

:33:11.:33:15.

Sutherland Europe, compliance is a voluntary event. We all know that

:33:16.:33:20.

the French do not obey these rules. Then we and northern Europe, we are

:33:21.:33:25.

by no means the best, we obey this stuff. And a small business who

:33:26.:33:30.

doesn't have lobbyists in Brussels, and you know this... I know this.

:33:31.:33:39.

Britain loves a bit of regulation. You are absolutely right. If we come

:33:40.:33:43.

out and you say we will still trade, we will still have to comply with

:33:44.:33:47.

the regulation. That is the condition of free trade. We will not

:33:48.:33:51.

avoid regulation. The regulation is there whether we are in or out. If

:33:52.:33:56.

we are in, we get to influence the regulation. We get to have the voice

:33:57.:34:01.

heard. You tell that to the money men in the City who have seen

:34:02.:34:10.

legislation come down from Brussels. You see what happens when we're not

:34:11.:34:14.

there when the big decisions are made. You think we have no

:34:15.:34:20.

influence? We're one of the three big forces in Europe. We are one of

:34:21.:34:23.

the three biggest economies in Europe. Digby Jones, I want to ask

:34:24.:34:30.

you this. You assume we will still have unfettered access to the single

:34:31.:34:35.

market. But it has been pointed out by Richard Reid that that means we

:34:36.:34:37.

would have to meet by Richard Reid that that means we

:34:38.:34:40.

would have to meet the conditions of getting into the single market.

:34:41.:34:44.

Could there be other costs? Free movement of people may be a cost.

:34:45.:34:48.

That is a price Switzerland and Norway pay. Let's Explorer that. I'm

:34:49.:34:54.

concerned this referendum is going to become a referendum purely on a

:34:55.:34:58.

migration on the street, when we ought to be discussing how can

:34:59.:35:03.

European Union reform and improve the life of an unemployed

:35:04.:35:08.

25-year-old in Madrid and a single mother in Athens? How can the power

:35:09.:35:12.

of Britain, economic and otherwise, how can it be seen as a driver to

:35:13.:35:17.

get the standard of living up? If you base your economy on exporting

:35:18.:35:22.

our lives and importing BMWs, you will go bust. They are asking Europe

:35:23.:35:27.

to subsidise the growth of our lives, in the hope that for some

:35:28.:35:31.

reason on skilled people in Europe will do this. You are going to get

:35:32.:35:34.

on skilled people in Europe coming to rich countries instead of

:35:35.:35:40.

actually getting skilled people in Europe being marketable in northern

:35:41.:35:44.

Europe. You can only pull that off with reform. We should not be

:35:45.:35:52.

campaigning to stop these people coming. We should be campaigning to

:35:53.:35:55.

get the skills base of Europe up so they get wealthy, but more

:35:56.:36:00.

importantly, they are more marketable in our market. The

:36:01.:36:05.

British government has enough trouble getting the skills base

:36:06.:36:08.

right in Britain without trying to get it right in southern Europe.

:36:09.:36:13.

Richard Reid, you say that we are in the club that we can influence the

:36:14.:36:19.

rules. Let me put the question. The British have been on the wrong end

:36:20.:36:24.

of EU majorities on these rules more than any other country that is a

:36:25.:36:28.

member of the EU. We really get away on these things. You are joking. We

:36:29.:36:35.

have got the best possible setup. We are part of the EU. We said no to

:36:36.:36:42.

the euro, no to Schengen, no to force migratory bird it is. Why so

:36:43.:36:51.

many majority votes? This is a macro decision. Once in a generation. We

:36:52.:36:57.

have got to get it right. The big picture is it is a colossal

:36:58.:37:01.

opportunity and we have got the best version of the deal. When you and I

:37:02.:37:07.

were arguing cases about whether we should join the euro years ago, I

:37:08.:37:11.

can remember sitting in television studios and being told the world was

:37:12.:37:16.

going to end and we were going to go to Armageddon and back if we did not

:37:17.:37:21.

join the euro. We made the right decision about the euro. This

:37:22.:37:29.

interview has come to an end. I thank you both.

:37:30.:37:31.

It's just gone 11:35 - you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:32.:37:33.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:34.:37:36.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be hearing from our political panel.

:37:37.:37:47.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:37:48.:37:50.

It's all change on the hill as MLAs vote to cut their numbers,

:37:51.:37:53.

reform their departments and perhaps establish an official opposition.

:37:54.:37:57.

So, will it create a new super-efficient Stormont?

:37:58.:38:00.

Or will we scarcely notice the difference?

:38:01.:38:03.

We'll hear from the independent MLA who's behind the push for change

:38:04.:38:06.

Plus - there's still no official date for polling day,

:38:07.:38:11.

but election fever is catching in the Republic.

:38:12.:38:13.

All things are on the top. I think people are a little bit more

:38:14.:38:28.

positive about everything. And with their thoughts on that

:38:29.:38:30.

and more, my guests of the day are Felicity Huston and Chris

:38:31.:38:33.

Donnelly. Not fit for purpose

:38:34.:38:38.

and in urgent need of reform - just some of the criticisms that

:38:39.:38:42.

politicians themselves have directed MLAs have been busying themselves

:38:43.:38:44.

with a number of bills which will reduce the number

:38:45.:38:52.

of Assembly members, merge Executive departments

:38:53.:38:53.

and establish a formal opposition. So, will it be enough to improve

:38:54.:38:57.

Stormont's image and create With me are the Independent Unionist

:38:58.:39:01.

MLA John McCallister and councillors Nichola Mallon from the SDLP

:39:02.:39:05.

and Nuala McAllister Welcome to the programme. John

:39:06.:39:17.

McCallister. Private members bill has its consideration stage on

:39:18.:39:21.

Tuesday, do you think it will ultimately steal the established of

:39:22.:39:24.

an effective opposition at Stormont Guzman I certainly hope so. I think

:39:25.:39:30.

that broader package you mentioned at the start of the programme of

:39:31.:39:35.

changing the departments, ultimately the reduction of MLAs to 2021 and

:39:36.:39:42.

the opposition bill. All that is about how would you start to create

:39:43.:39:46.

this idea of a collective government with an agreed programme for

:39:47.:39:50.

government, moving in one direction and held to account by a robust

:39:51.:39:54.

opposition that ultimately gives voters a choice and the ability of

:39:55.:39:59.

toys and change for a future elections. There are a lot of

:40:00.:40:03.

amendments from other parties. Sinn Fein is opposing every cause of the

:40:04.:40:07.

deal Lyman stage. Sinn Fein ride back from November told me they were

:40:08.:40:14.

likely to oppose every clause on the grounds that they had agreed fresh

:40:15.:40:20.

start and they were certainly pushing Bible had in England's first

:40:21.:40:24.

start that had improved the provision for opposition from -- it

:40:25.:40:34.

is there and it is being debated. All of the parties and I say this

:40:35.:40:39.

including Sinn Fein, they have engaged with me on the bill, it has

:40:40.:40:45.

been very useful. Michael Allen. Sinn Fein is opposed, will be SDLP

:40:46.:40:51.

-- Michael Allen. The SDLP has worked quite closely. John has to be

:40:52.:40:55.

commended for bringing this bill forward. If you look at the glaring

:40:56.:41:03.

weakness in the system, there is a lack of openness and transparency

:41:04.:41:07.

with the budget process in particular. The bill with the

:41:08.:41:13.

amendments make good inroads into trying to address that. You're not

:41:14.:41:19.

happy with the notion of it petition of concern, what changes do you

:41:20.:41:25.

think needed? We think it is worth quite considerably from what it was

:41:26.:41:28.

intended to be. We have tabled an amendment. If someone has a petition

:41:29.:41:33.

of concern and will be scrutinised to see weather it has adverse impact

:41:34.:41:42.

on human rights and equality. So, you think it has been abused but you

:41:43.:41:45.

don't want to get rid of it altogether? Know because

:41:46.:41:48.

unfortunately we believe we won't be in a place where there won't be a

:41:49.:41:54.

misuse of power, or domination of sectarianism so unfortunately we

:41:55.:41:58.

have two retained the safeguards for minority rights and we believe we

:41:59.:42:01.

are doing is the right way and the right and effectively. As far as

:42:02.:42:08.

opposition is concerned, your current party before he was bodied

:42:09.:42:11.

said there was no place called opposition but he made a speech yet

:42:12.:42:16.

last week in which he seemed to suggest opposition would be a good

:42:17.:42:20.

idea, does that mean the SDLP is moving in that direction? I think he

:42:21.:42:24.

was clear that after this they should be an official opposition but

:42:25.:42:29.

we are fighting this election to be in government. With caster, what is

:42:30.:42:38.

your position on this? We have been quite constructive, working along

:42:39.:42:42.

side him and we will be supporting him. On the hell out of the bill

:42:43.:42:51.

is... By party would have major concerns about the petition of

:42:52.:42:55.

concern. I would not like to see that mechanism being used to

:42:56.:42:58.

actually slapped down the bill. It would be a great embarrassment to

:42:59.:43:02.

the party who do use it and I hope the petition of concern is not used

:43:03.:43:05.

because something that creates more accountability and scrutiny is a

:43:06.:43:08.

good thing for the public. And is it a possibility that the Alliance

:43:09.:43:14.

Party could opt if the bid is successful to take an opposition

:43:15.:43:17.

stance in the next mandate rather than seek to be in the Executive

:43:18.:43:22.

they currently are? No party fight an election to go into opposition.

:43:23.:43:26.

They fight going to government and to govern for the best the people.

:43:27.:43:30.

Whenever that happens after the election then Alliance will say what

:43:31.:43:34.

the position is then. But you do support the notion of an effective

:43:35.:43:38.

opposition even if you might opt for hope that you are not out

:43:39.:43:42.

yourselves? Of course. As I said, something that creates more

:43:43.:43:46.

accountability to hold politicians to account and then making decisions

:43:47.:43:49.

in the Executive is nothing but a good thing. The other piece of

:43:50.:43:52.

legislation that I talked about in the introduction of the reduction of

:43:53.:43:56.

members bill, your party has tabled an amendment wanting the reduction

:43:57.:44:00.

in numbers to come into effect this year 's election, rather than adding

:44:01.:44:07.

21. But there is not any real prospect of that happening, do you

:44:08.:44:11.

accept that? We are in a bizarre situation here. Politicians have

:44:12.:44:16.

agreed to reduce the numbers from six to five per constituency but

:44:17.:44:19.

they have agreed to hold off until 2021 or the next Assembly election.

:44:20.:44:24.

We are pushing three the final stage of the departments but which reduces

:44:25.:44:29.

the number of departments, so Eddie single -- decision that affects the

:44:30.:44:34.

public, they could save ?11 million in five years, 90 new police

:44:35.:44:38.

officers, 90 new nurses, I think the public would like that. We need to

:44:39.:44:41.

make sure that MLAs are held accountable. John McCallister, is

:44:42.:44:45.

that the kind of issue that leaves members of the public watching the

:44:46.:44:52.

comings and goings, that the left hand doesn't know what the right

:44:53.:44:59.

hand is doing. It is an open debate. The agreement in fresh start but

:45:00.:45:09.

like I would have much preferred to see after beating this under the new

:45:10.:45:13.

Assembly mandate, time to work out whether 90 is the right number

:45:14.:45:18.

because changes at Westminster might also affect numbers. And that is not

:45:19.:45:21.

self-interest? Independents like yourself are very often individuals

:45:22.:45:28.

who tend to pick up the sixth seed. If it goes from six seats to five,

:45:29.:45:32.

someone Microsoft could struggle to be returned. Absolutely. It is

:45:33.:45:39.

important to have independent voices. Also we are still grappling

:45:40.:45:43.

ride throughout the committee stage of my bill, it is always debating

:45:44.:45:47.

this idea of how we continue to address the historic problems and

:45:48.:45:52.

once you reduce and change the size of constituencies it can change the

:45:53.:45:58.

make-up of those constituencies or indeed reduce somewhat the spread of

:45:59.:46:04.

candidates across it, for example you might have more constituencies

:46:05.:46:09.

with no nationalist representatives or no unionist representatives and

:46:10.:46:12.

we have to ask ourselves is that a good thing, are we ready for that

:46:13.:46:15.

and that is why I think most of the parties are reluctant to go too

:46:16.:46:24.

fast, too soon on this issue. You are not in, Nichola Allen. Your

:46:25.:46:27.

party touched on this. We agreed reduction in numbers, but marketing

:46:28.:46:36.

departments, we want to set up an official opposition, changing number

:46:37.:46:38.

of constituencies, changing Westminster. I think we need to be

:46:39.:46:41.

cautious. We need change but we don't want to rush it too far to be

:46:42.:46:49.

end up causing damage. You looked as if you were shaking your head, Naula

:46:50.:46:56.

MCallister, do you not agree? The change we are opposing is what

:46:57.:47:00.

affects politicians, it is the change in the numbers. John

:47:01.:47:06.

mentioned the Westminster boundaries might change but... Why get a power

:47:07.:47:12.

and an wide five years to do something. It sells itself interest

:47:13.:47:18.

the parties and I think a lot of people can get on board with that.

:47:19.:47:21.

We're talking about ensuring there is better inclusion because there

:47:22.:47:26.

are members of other parties who have just one MLA and their

:47:27.:47:30.

supporters on this issue because they know we can ensure greater

:47:31.:47:34.

accountability and we can look alongside the departments and we can

:47:35.:47:38.

ensure that we provide better value for money at Stormont. Forgive me

:47:39.:47:42.

for saying, it will work quite well, this tactic, the Alliance on the

:47:43.:47:47.

door so casually. You actually say to people who are potential voters,

:47:48.:47:51.

we think this should change and beginning of your colours to the

:47:52.:47:55.

mast at the zero will not change the order to do so because something

:47:56.:47:59.

shouldn't change you shouldn't do it? Alliance have been calling this

:48:00.:48:04.

for a number of years and just because the bike there are parties

:48:05.:48:07.

that do this all the time and we appeal for people to get on board

:48:08.:48:10.

with us. We're not talking about something that will create a massive

:48:11.:48:13.

change. You can still feel the number of candidates as you wish, in

:48:14.:48:17.

each constituency. That will not stop it but what we're talking about

:48:18.:48:20.

is on election day it will be five, not six. John McCallister, your bill

:48:21.:48:26.

has consideration said on Tuesday. It may go through but do you accept

:48:27.:48:30.

if it goes through it is going to be a hugely changed version of what you

:48:31.:48:37.

initially authored? I would suspect I can't entirely predictable, of the

:48:38.:48:41.

land. When I the bill and worked on the bill, even as you agreed at the

:48:42.:48:48.

time of second stage, a pretty ambitious programme of reform of

:48:49.:48:52.

both the Assembly and official opposition of the way the Executive

:48:53.:48:55.

worked, collective responsibility, all of those things were very

:48:56.:49:01.

ambitious but even I don't get up on -- all of what I would like in the

:49:02.:49:05.

bill to set. It has certainly fired up a conversation with parties,

:49:06.:49:11.

academics and commentators in saying, this is the sort of change

:49:12.:49:17.

we might need over a period of time and I will continue to campaign for

:49:18.:49:21.

the change. Thank you very much. Stay with us.

:49:22.:49:24.

Let's see what my guests of the day make of that.

:49:25.:49:26.

Chris Donnelly and Felicity Huston are with me.

:49:27.:49:28.

Welcome to you both. Chris, Sinn Fein sportsperson said to us this

:49:29.:49:37.

morning the bill, John McCallister's bill is unnecessary because the

:49:38.:49:39.

fresh start agreement has provision for an opposition in line with the

:49:40.:49:45.

Good Friday Agreement, so that is an explanation for why republicans have

:49:46.:49:48.

opposed each and every one of the 24 clauses in the bill. What you think

:49:49.:49:54.

will happen on Tuesday? First of all I think John should be commended for

:49:55.:49:58.

ensuring the issue of constitutional reform is kept through the member 's

:49:59.:50:03.

bill on the agenda. We do know because we have a coalition with the

:50:04.:50:07.

five parties in the Executive which is necessary because of the legacy

:50:08.:50:11.

of the conflict but we know the consequence of that is no unifying

:50:12.:50:17.

discerning agenda through the Executive. That is at a situation

:50:18.:50:22.

where departments run by different parties have own agenda and that

:50:23.:50:26.

leads to protracted deadlock the Executive table which goes on for

:50:27.:50:29.

years over issues on education, health, local government reform. But

:50:30.:50:33.

I think crucially and this is why I think Sinn Fein can be quite relaxed

:50:34.:50:36.

about this, that system benefits since then and the DUP at the Leeds

:50:37.:50:41.

parties within unionism and nationalism and therefore it will

:50:42.:50:46.

have to be driven not by them because it is in their interests to

:50:47.:50:52.

be able to move of the Executive to ensure that like I just wanted to

:50:53.:50:56.

bring felicity in on the overall issue of reform. That is a package

:50:57.:51:01.

of measures. Do they brought the make sense? Broadly, yes. Our

:51:02.:51:07.

current political structure is one of dampest circles of hell for both

:51:08.:51:11.

politicians. You can pinpoint a policy because you're stuck in this

:51:12.:51:19.

horrendous... Anything that breaks add up and starts to turn us into a

:51:20.:51:22.

normal political state, functioning state with opposition policies

:51:23.:51:26.

implemented and people electing politicians on the basis of policy

:51:27.:51:29.

sale breadboard, that has to be welcome and I think we will be

:51:30.:51:34.

delighted. We will talk you later. Thank you.

:51:35.:51:36.

Now, they haven't called it officially yet, but the Irish

:51:37.:51:39.

election will take place in the coming weeks.

:51:40.:51:41.

Will Enda Kenny be returned as Taoiseach?

:51:42.:51:43.

Will there be a shift to Micheal Martin's Fianna Fail?

:51:44.:51:46.

Can the party make the gains that put it into government in the Dail?

:51:47.:51:52.

One area being targeted by Sinn Fein is Donegal where the party

:51:53.:51:55.

currently holds two seats, but hopes to gain a third.

:51:56.:51:58.

Our Political Correspondent Stephen Walker has been to the county

:51:59.:52:00.

Over 200 commenters from Dublin, some regard this as a place apart.

:52:01.:52:19.

... Kilometres. Elections here are also different and even before a

:52:20.:52:24.

vote has been cast, headlines have been created. It's a case of all

:52:25.:52:31.

teams here in Donegal. Once there to constituencies, they have now been

:52:32.:52:38.

merged to create one. Once six TDs were elected, this time it will be

:52:39.:52:42.

five. It fixes election race very tight and the final outcome

:52:43.:52:48.

difficult to predict. -- makes this election race. Sinn Fein have two

:52:49.:52:53.

TDs here at the moment. Patrick McLoughlin and Pearse Doherty. They

:52:54.:52:56.

hope local councillor Gary Doherty can win a third seed. Old management

:52:57.:53:01.

will be key. It is a risky strategy. Very ambitious to take these seats.

:53:02.:53:08.

It is one that me and public have been instigators of because we

:53:09.:53:15.

believe it is important to be in a position to lead the next

:53:16.:53:18.

government. Why do you say it is risky? Because when you stand three

:53:19.:53:23.

candidates and your two hours without, it is the other sitting TDs

:53:24.:53:30.

in jeopardy. Reporter Kieran O'Donnell says Sinn Fein are in a

:53:31.:53:33.

strong position and could take a third seed in Donegal. Anything is

:53:34.:53:38.

possible in the selection. Guaranteed to seats. Whether Gary

:53:39.:53:45.

Gardai makes enough for Patrick to stainless that race remains to be

:53:46.:53:51.

seen. It is unlikely but possible. Fine Gael are running sitting TDs

:53:52.:53:57.

Jeroen Dijsselbloem which you and they have also selected a fresh face

:53:58.:54:05.

with a well-known name. Paddy Harte's father was a Fine Gael TD.

:54:06.:54:11.

He says Donegal needs to be better connected and that includes

:54:12.:54:13.

improving the a five in Northern Ireland. The last major said in that

:54:14.:54:20.

city in the ad has not got a motorway, which is dairy. It is

:54:21.:54:25.

essentially our capital wasn't a border. -- Barry. It is important

:54:26.:54:32.

for the island that it Afive as a connection. The Aberfoyle...

:54:33.:54:45.

Post-election, the Aberfoyle have made it clear who they will go into

:54:46.:54:50.

coalition with. We will not be going into government with Fine Gael. Our

:54:51.:54:54.

objective is to become the largest party and ensure their recovery that

:54:55.:55:01.

Donegal can benefit from. And it brings about a fair approach to

:55:02.:55:06.

governing the country. Voters in Donegal will have a number of

:55:07.:55:09.

independent candidates to choose from. In other constituencies,

:55:10.:55:14.

independents find it hard to get elected because they are up against

:55:15.:55:19.

a party machine. But in Donegal there is an independent tradition.

:55:20.:55:24.

Thomas Pringle became an independent TD in 2011. If he is returned he is

:55:25.:55:33.

prepared to talk to other parties. I would bag all the things that

:55:34.:55:37.

Donegal requires but all things old legacy in a national level. If the

:55:38.:55:42.

party of Fine Gael or attempt to do business on with me then I would

:55:43.:55:48.

talk to them but I support anyone would not be guaranteed. So far

:55:49.:55:53.

there are three other independent candidates in this race. There is a

:55:54.:55:59.

Green Party candidate. It means Donegal voters have plenty of

:56:00.:56:05.

choice. It's a mass of elections. I think the left will do well this

:56:06.:56:11.

time. There are just squeezing us try. Far too many of them got in

:56:12.:56:19.

last time. All over the place. Things are on the up. I think people

:56:20.:56:23.

are more positive about everything. The current government configuring a

:56:24.:56:28.

job. The boundary changes and the mother of candidates makes it

:56:29.:56:31.

difficult to predict how all the seats will fall. There are so many

:56:32.:56:37.

things at the minute. The field will be so wide and varied. It will go

:56:38.:56:46.

down to the wire. A lot before the last two candidates are elected in

:56:47.:56:50.

Donegal. The boundaries may have changed here and it may look

:56:51.:56:55.

different but when the election is finally called, the fight for seats

:56:56.:57:00.

in Donegal will be as competitive as ever.

:57:01.:57:04.

Stephen Walker reporting from Donegal, and two more

:57:05.:57:05.

Independent candidates have now entered the fray -

:57:06.:57:07.

Let's hear more from Chris Donnelly and Felicity Huston.

:57:08.:57:16.

Chris, if the battle for seats in Donegal likely to be A microcosm of

:57:17.:57:20.

the broader General Election campaign? I don't think so. Donegal

:57:21.:57:26.

is unique, Sinn Fein are particularly strong there. One of

:57:27.:57:31.

the things for republicans along the border, Dublin as well. They're

:57:32.:57:36.

getting stronger. A three and week long campaign. Enda Kenny will be

:57:37.:57:43.

the first Fine Gael Taoiseach to gain real action. Enough Labour TDs

:57:44.:57:50.

for it give the coalition were Willie need a third party? The

:57:51.:57:56.

fascinating what ifs. As Chris says, a really short, sharp campaign?

:57:57.:58:00.

Absolutely and more of it please. I think everybody should have three

:58:01.:58:04.

weeks. That is the way you like it? Even if political anorak like me,

:58:05.:58:12.

that is plenty. Some real political anoraks are saying we might have a

:58:13.:58:16.

second election to sort this out. Some are I keep praying for that.

:58:17.:58:18.

The waiter it looks at the moment, if Labour are only said on nine or

:58:19.:58:24.

10%, that would be enough, as happened in the early 80s, there had

:58:25.:58:27.

to be a second election a few months it. We will see. Some people will be

:58:28.:58:32.

happy and some will not be happy. Wheels the key again later.

:58:33.:58:35.

Now, let's pause and take a look back at the week in 60 seconds

:58:36.:58:39.

In or out? In London the Taoiseach made clear his hopes in the dregs of

:58:40.:58:49.

debate. I want Britain to remain a central member of the EU and from

:58:50.:58:55.

our island point of view, this is a really critical issue. But back in

:58:56.:58:59.

Belfast the First Minister suggested Mr Kenny should keep it up so

:59:00.:59:02.

himself. He is entitled to an opinion and if you are that the end

:59:03.:59:07.

of the day it is a matter for the people of the UK. With the Assembly

:59:08.:59:10.

election coming up in a veteran decided to bow out. After eight

:59:11.:59:15.

years, some tough years as were the long, off with the old, on with the

:59:16.:59:19.

new. Or not so new as a familiar face re-entered the political arena.

:59:20.:59:22.

I am not someone who could possibly go off and have a nice life because

:59:23.:59:26.

I would find myself shouting at the television and getting frustrated.

:59:27.:59:30.

But what were the chances all parties doing away with election

:59:31.:59:36.

posters? I think the chances of that happening are slim. And a warning,

:59:37.:59:43.

always someone is listening. Mr Jim Allister... Chris Page reporting.

:59:44.:59:48.

Just time for a quick look ahead with Felicity and Chris.

:59:49.:59:53.

Naomi Long's turn has certainly been made pretty clear. She wants to come

:59:54.:00:00.

back to the Assembly. She was my MP and East Belfast and one that thinks

:00:01.:00:04.

it is great that is covering a lot of issues. She is strong on animal

:00:05.:00:07.

welfare, a massive issue in Northern Ireland. She gets back into the

:00:08.:00:10.

Assembly I think it will be a real plus for that and it should make

:00:11.:00:18.

sure David Ford's performance as he is in obvious new leader. She is a

:00:19.:00:24.

formidable politicians. It's to keep United candidate to defeat in East

:00:25.:00:27.

Belfast so it'll be interesting to see Alliance perform with her on the

:00:28.:00:31.

ticket in East Belfast. Arlene Foster has said Terry Wogan is a

:00:32.:00:37.

legend of broadcasting. It is part of my life. He has been broadcasting

:00:38.:00:39.

for so long. That is talk about themselves and the

:00:40.:00:41.

mayoral budget. Back to Andrew. Welcome back. Let's return to the

:00:42.:00:59.

issue of Google's tax bill. It is not just Google. Earlier I spoke to

:01:00.:01:02.

John McDonnell and asked him what he would do to make sure that companies

:01:03.:01:07.

like Google pay a fair and appropriate level of tax. First of

:01:08.:01:12.

all, I want the information about how the deal was arrived at and I

:01:13.:01:15.

want them in future to publish their tax records, the British part. So we

:01:16.:01:23.

can have openness and transparency, we can see what is fair. The

:01:24.:01:28.

Chancellor said this was a major success, but we cannot tell because

:01:29.:01:33.

we have not got the information. I would suggest that the Google row

:01:34.:01:38.

rumbles on by Google appearing with Andrew Marr this morning. There are

:01:39.:01:44.

other companies in the frame like Amazon, Apple, big investigation by

:01:45.:01:47.

the European Commission -- commission. And we discover that a

:01:48.:01:52.

lot of major British multinationals do not pay any are very small

:01:53.:01:56.

amounts of corporation tax. This issue has got a long way to go, I

:01:57.:02:03.

would suggest? Yes, and it could end up in a transatlantic almost cold

:02:04.:02:08.

war between the EU and the US and in particular US companies. Each side

:02:09.:02:13.

thinks the other is trying to exploit its site disproportionately.

:02:14.:02:16.

I wonder if eventually the people who ultimately lobby for

:02:17.:02:21.

International corporate tax reform and clarity will be corporations

:02:22.:02:24.

themselves. At the moment they are getting into trouble of what is

:02:25.:02:27.

ultimately observing the letter of the law, and certainly observing

:02:28.:02:31.

their duty to pay the legal minimum of tax, the duty they have to their

:02:32.:02:36.

shareholders. If that is getting them into trouble, I think they have

:02:37.:02:39.

an incentive in the long run to press for a clarity and reform

:02:40.:02:43.

internationally, even if it means their aggregate tax payment goes

:02:44.:02:48.

slightly upwards. The irony is that this row comes after there has been

:02:49.:02:54.

major changes at the OECD level, at EU level, on trying to simplify and

:02:55.:03:00.

get multinationals to pay their due tax. And yet we seem to be no

:03:01.:03:04.

further forward than before. I wonder if people start looking

:03:05.:03:09.

harder at corporation tax and whether that is the right way to

:03:10.:03:13.

proceed? S there are other ways of doing it. You can do it on turnover,

:03:14.:03:19.

sales. These large companies that are taking bigger and bigger slabs

:03:20.:03:23.

of the British markets are not paying their tax. Think of the

:03:24.:03:32.

people competing against Amazon. Argos, the local book shop... It is

:03:33.:03:39.

not fair. Their sense of indignation... Then to discover that

:03:40.:03:42.

the Conservative Party, while talking about how they are trying to

:03:43.:03:47.

clean this up and they are doing more than Labour, which possibly

:03:48.:03:51.

they are, meanwhile instructing their MEPs to vote against moves in

:03:52.:03:55.

Europe, to try to get a proper European agreement on this, it will

:03:56.:03:59.

not work unless we get a European agreement, and to find out that the

:04:00.:04:04.

Government says one thing speaking here but secretly in the European

:04:05.:04:08.

Parliament does something else. There are a lot of legs on this. A

:04:09.:04:12.

lot of trouble for the Conservative Party because it plays to their

:04:13.:04:16.

weakness, sick -- just a security and defence place to be Labour

:04:17.:04:21.

weakness. They are in bed with the big corporations. Do you think they

:04:22.:04:28.

are in bed with them? Politicians love meeting cutting edge companies.

:04:29.:04:31.

They do not spend that much time with steel companies. It is a bit of

:04:32.:04:37.

a stretch to then think that they were ever doing anything about

:04:38.:04:42.

Google's tax returns. I think it is quite a stretch. The Google top

:04:43.:04:49.

executive right at the heart of Downing Street, just as Andy Coulson

:04:50.:04:51.

from the Murdoch empire was right at the heart of Downing Street. You

:04:52.:04:57.

have got Seamus Milne at the heart of the Corbyn Empire. There is quite

:04:58.:05:10.

a difference! It is ironic, the International rules were meant to be

:05:11.:05:13.

cleaned up. They were meant to have done something about the double

:05:14.:05:20.

Irish and Dutch sandwich. I speak in tongues because that is how you have

:05:21.:05:26.

to do it these days. Unless there is a major radical change, I would

:05:27.:05:29.

suggest, if they carry on the current way, it will be another ten

:05:30.:05:32.

years before there are further changes? Yass and not only were the

:05:33.:05:38.

international rules meant to have been cleared up, George Osborne

:05:39.:05:44.

talked about how reprehensible aggressive tax avoidance is. Then

:05:45.:05:50.

last week he said the deal with Google is a special deal. The

:05:51.:05:53.

problem with George Osborne is he has forgotten the second part of

:05:54.:05:58.

Peter Mandelson's famous sentence about being relaxed about people

:05:59.:06:06.

getting rich... As long as they pay their tax. The problem for George

:06:07.:06:11.

Osborne is that he sees everything through a 2010 lens. This deal is

:06:12.:06:13.

much better than anything that happened under new Labour. That is

:06:14.:06:22.

six years ago. We have moved on. People are now judging this

:06:23.:06:25.

government on what they have done. It has been a long slow burning

:06:26.:06:30.

campaign. The tax Justice campaign has been brilliant. UK uncut Ren

:06:31.:06:38.

fantastic demonstrations against top shop, Vodafone, boots, people

:06:39.:06:40.

avoiding their taxes in elaborate ways. Witty campaigns the public

:06:41.:06:48.

saw. I think it is at the centre of it now. With other cases coming up,

:06:49.:06:53.

Apple and Amazon, Vodafone always in the frame... Just finally, I thought

:06:54.:07:03.

it was fascinating that Peter Borren of Google explained in effect that

:07:04.:07:06.

the money made in Britain and other places is then sent to Bermuda,

:07:07.:07:12.

essentially warehoused in Bermuda. It is a tax haven. If they

:07:13.:07:18.

repatriated back to California headquarters, they would pay

:07:19.:07:22.

corporation tax in America and they think that is too high. America

:07:23.:07:29.

corporate tax is run about 40%. Apple has about 200 billion US

:07:30.:07:34.

dollars in cash reserves internationally. Let's move on to

:07:35.:07:38.

the referendum. I got the impression from listening to John McDonnell and

:07:39.:07:44.

other Labour shadow ministers I have interviewed that there is no

:07:45.:07:48.

appetite on the Labour front bench to delay this referendum. I think

:07:49.:07:52.

they would like to get on with it? S they want to get on with it, then

:07:53.:07:56.

wanted to succeed. They want the yes campaign to win. At the moment

:07:57.:08:00.

Labour is not doing very well with it. It ought to be a great hallmark

:08:01.:08:08.

for them. Labour is almost unequivocally pro-EU. They should be

:08:09.:08:12.

making a lot of capital against every split Tory party and they are

:08:13.:08:18.

not, really. It is not clear why. Maybe their hearts are not in it. It

:08:19.:08:23.

is led by two people who voted to come out into -- 19 75. Alan Johnson

:08:24.:08:29.

woman who is leading the campaign, does not appear to be making much

:08:30.:08:32.

headway. Maybe they are waiting until Cameron comes back with a

:08:33.:08:37.

package. I think they are missing a trick. The Eurosceptics want more

:08:38.:08:41.

time. They fear if it is rushed, they will definitely lose. But for a

:08:42.:08:48.

June referendum in the Commons, it would need Labour as well. It is

:08:49.:08:55.

clearly not going to happen. The only thing that could stop it,

:08:56.:08:59.

because the numbers are now not in the Commons, is if the electoral

:09:00.:09:02.

commission, bearing in mind you have the leaders of the three devolved

:09:03.:09:06.

administrations saying they're not happy, that is the only thing that

:09:07.:09:11.

could potentially stop it. Now that the Labour Party is saying we should

:09:12.:09:15.

get on with it, it looks like that will happen. People like Steve Baker

:09:16.:09:19.

needs to be careful. They have been saying for 20 years we need a

:09:20.:09:23.

referendum. Here it is coming down the stream and they say, we are not

:09:24.:09:27.

sure about it. That potentially shows they are nervous about the

:09:28.:09:32.

case. One of the most telling thing is Steve Baker said was the number

:09:33.:09:36.

of Tory MPs who would vote to leave would be no more than 70, which is

:09:37.:09:41.

clearly expectations management on his party that's my part. What you

:09:42.:09:47.

have seen in the past 72 hours is expectations management on all

:09:48.:09:56.

sides. Downing Street is dampening down expectations. We are all

:09:57.:10:02.

massively impressed. I hope you are right that he is that clever. What

:10:03.:10:06.

worries me is that he has been reckless. He has put things out

:10:07.:10:10.

there that he could never get. He has not put everybody square. If not

:10:11.:10:18.

clever, certainly cynical. Steve Baker and the sceptics are playing

:10:19.:10:21.

down their expected numbers, even Cabinet ministers. The area where

:10:22.:10:29.

George Osborne thinks he will make the most fundamental and important

:10:30.:10:33.

changes as the exceptions for those countries not in the eurozone. That

:10:34.:10:40.

gets very little coverage. George Osborne says that is the most

:10:41.:10:44.

important thing we could get because it will play for decades to come.

:10:45.:10:48.

The territory they are fighting on is the area where they are quite

:10:49.:10:54.

weak, benefits reform. We will have another referendum in 2021 when

:10:55.:10:59.

treaty change takes place and the eurozone becomes a proper monetary

:11:00.:11:03.

union. I don't think anybody is go to do a treaty change for a long

:11:04.:11:08.

time. The mood across Europe, particularly about immigration and

:11:09.:11:11.

refugee is, I think nobody will want a treaty. It is all talk. I do not

:11:12.:11:20.

see it. I don't think anybody will trust their own electorate

:11:21.:11:22.

sufficiently at any particular point. They will look at hours with

:11:23.:11:29.

great interest. And they will say, don't go there. Before we go, a sad

:11:30.:11:35.

morning today. We learned that veteran broadcaster Terry Wogan has

:11:36.:11:39.

died at the age of 77 after a short battle with cancer. Over his many

:11:40.:11:43.

years in broadcasting, he interviewed a great number of

:11:44.:11:46.

people, including politicians. He really is talking to Margaret

:11:47.:11:50.

Thatcher. What do the next ten years hold for

:11:51.:11:54.

us and for our Prime Minister? Mrs Margaret Thatcher. You ever

:11:55.:12:05.

apprehensive? Are you ever nervous before you get up and speak? Always.

:12:06.:12:12.

And you would not speak well if you were not. I have been answering

:12:13.:12:15.

questions in the House every Tuesday and Thursday for ten years. And I am

:12:16.:12:21.

still just as nervous as I was at the beginning. It requires immense

:12:22.:12:26.

preparation. You have seen your share of trouble and strife and

:12:27.:12:30.

success. What have been your worst moments? The worst moment on totally

:12:31.:12:38.

was when the Argentinians invaded the Falkland Islands. I will never

:12:39.:12:42.

forget it. With the worries and some of the terrible problems you have

:12:43.:12:48.

had, do you have any time for personal worries? We have been very

:12:49.:12:55.

lucky. You know Dennis very well. You both belong to Lord's Tavern is.

:12:56.:12:59.

Everyone knows Dennis. He is marvellous! Why did your audience

:13:00.:13:09.

laugh when you mentioned him? He is held in great affection by everyone

:13:10.:13:12.

because he has the tremendous knack for saying things people would love

:13:13.:13:15.

to say but they're not. Terry Wogan, one of the most

:13:16.:13:19.

accomplished and professional, charming broadcasters in modern

:13:20.:13:23.

times. Sadly died this morning. We learn from his family. Terry Wogan.

:13:24.:13:28.

That is it for today. I thank all of my guests. The daily politics will

:13:29.:13:34.

be on BBC Two from noon tomorrow and every day next week, including Prime

:13:35.:13:38.

Minister's Questions on Wednesday. I am back your macro same time, same

:13:39.:13:42.

place next week. We will know more about the American election campaign

:13:43.:13:46.

by them. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:47.:13:52.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by shadow chancellor John McDonnell, Steve Baker, Lord Digby Jones and businessman Richard Reed. Janan Ganesh, Polly Toynbee and Nick Watt are on the political panel.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS