Browse content similar to 15/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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comparing the mission of the European Union with | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
what Hitler was trying to achieve - has the Leave campaign's self-styled | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
Churchillian attack dog gone too far? | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
He says leaving the European Union | :00:55. | :00:55. | |
will improve the lives of the "have nots" - | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
but is the man who presided over billions of pounds of welfare | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
cuts really on the side of working people? | :01:02. | :01:02. | |
Reducing the powers of the House of Lords | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
would not be acceptable, says the woman charged with keeping order | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
in the upper house - but with 60 government defeats | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
in the last year alone have their Lord and Ladyships | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
And coming up here: The architect of opposition at Stormont, | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
the former MLA John McCalllister, gives us his verdict | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
on the Ulster Unionist Party's move out of government. | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
And with me - as always - three journalists who'd have been | :01:25. | :01:40. | |
sure to win the Eurovision political punditry contest: Helen Lewis, | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
Isabel Oakeshott and Amol Rajan who'll be tweeting throughout | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
So earlier in the week the Prime Minister warned that | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
leaving the EU could precipitate armed conflict in Europe. | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
Today, Boris Johnson hits back, comparing the European Union | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
to Hitler in an interview with the Sunday Telegraph: | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods." | :02:02. | :02:19. | |
Boris goes on to say "The euro has become a means by which superior | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
German productivity is able to gain an absolutely unbeatable advantage | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
Could you organise an ordinance that British politicians should just shut | :02:26. | :02:42. | |
up about Hitler? It is an interesting one, the campaign are | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
getting quite grumpy, saying that he was not really talking about Hitler. | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
Boris is to clever not to know that if you mention Napoleon and Hitler | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
people will write headlines. He is a columnist and he knows this. It is | :03:00. | :03:08. | |
bizarre. It was Sadiq Khan sitting at home thinking he was the only | :03:09. | :03:17. | |
London mayor was not mentioned Hitler? The campaign has become | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
quite personal, it is about David Cameron's relationship with them, | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
and whether he has a hope of becoming leader. And as always like | :03:29. | :03:38. | |
to make things personal. It does not surprisingly in the slightest that | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
it is becoming more personal as the clock ticks towards the key date. On | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
Boris Johnson's comments, absolutely agree with Helen but no good can | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
come of a politician mentioning Hitler, but the reaction to the | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
remarks has been rather hysterical. If anyone bothers reading the | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
context... In the context. The Mac was an absolutely reasonable | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
statement of historical fact. We should not get to a point where | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
nobody can mention anything historical without it creating a | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
ridiculous action. I don't think it will be arise if it helps them win | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
votes. He fancies herself as an inherent to Winston Churchill, it | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
was in store. In your dreams, if the copy had come in and you had seen | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
the word logo might think you have a chance for a headline. Ever since | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
the collapse of the Roman Empire there have been attempts to unify | :04:51. | :05:02. | |
Europe. In a way, the Germans have that... There was a slight | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
difference in having endless pragmatic committees and ruling | :05:09. | :05:10. | |
tanks and to Poland. By different means is quite different. He was | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
arguing it was an attempt to unify Europe, it is bundled together | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
different ideas. It is a bit of a stretch. But overstretch! I think | :05:23. | :05:31. | |
there was a real danger... And what is the European Union, parable? | :05:32. | :05:41. | |
People support Brexit would say it was an attempt to build a European | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
super structure without a Democratic base. Democratic nations. It is | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
completely reasonable. Ireland begins to cover girl to make | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
important arguments about historical trends. Butler was Fromer remark. | :05:57. | :06:05. | |
He only mentioned Napoleon. Maybe he should have mentioned other leaders. | :06:06. | :06:25. | |
What do you make of the polls, showing neck and neck but they are | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
so far ahead in the economic argument, and that is why we will | :06:31. | :06:39. | |
win. They always hoped that. The evidence is that people put the | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
economy as the highest concern. What the Leave campaign is trying to do, | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
we've seen this from Nigel Farage, make the point that this is not just | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
about GDP, a few extra pounds in your pocket. The Leave campaign will | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
be hoping to highlight the question of what this means for society. | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
Now - would leaving the European Union be good | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
for the poor and disadvantaged in Britain? | :07:16. | :07:16. | |
That's the case that's being made by the former Work | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
and Pension Secretary Iain Duncan Smith. | :07:20. | :07:20. | |
I will be talking to him in a moment. | :07:21. | :07:22. | |
But first let's hear the warnings earlier this week about | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
the short-term impact of Brexit on the economy | :07:26. | :07:26. | |
from the Governor Bank of England, Mark Carney. | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
A vote to leave the European Union could have material economic effects | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
on the exchange rate, on demand, and on the economy's | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
So, this combination of influences on demand, | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
supply and the exchange rate could lead to a materially lower | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
path for growth and a notably higher path for inflation | :07:49. | :08:00. | |
than in the central projections set out in today's | :08:01. | :08:02. | |
Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. You've claimed that leaving the EU | :08:03. | :08:18. | |
would be good for the have nots but the Governor of the Bank of England | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
says it could lead to recession, inflation, unemployment. That could | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
be bad. If all the predictions were right. Every single one of these | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
predictions is done by groups of people who've got most of their | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
predictions wrong. The point I would make to you, the Treasury prediction | :08:38. | :08:47. | |
and the IMS prediction all show that if Britain left the EU the economy | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
would grow. Their argument is it would not grow as fast but how you | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
can predict a 0.6% variation is beyond me. He was the point I really | :09:00. | :09:12. | |
believe about the bank, which is where I find this very back. I think | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
the bank, the governor has strayed into an expression of a simple, | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
personal prediction. I don't think it is actually possible for you to | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
say with any absolute accuracy that that will happen. In a sense, when | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
you listen to what he said, he started to nuance about the idea, he | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
was not seeing it actually would be comic he said he thought it could be | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
about that. Here is my point about the independence of the Bank of | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
England. Section ten of the 1998 act makes it very clear that if he is to | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
talk about monetary policies, for which he has independence, he has to | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
be open, impartial and all things must be available. Last year, in | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
2015, when he spoke about the threat to the British economy, he made the | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
point which Mervyn King has made that the euro instability and the | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
crash has been very damaging to the British economy and will be even | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
more damaging as it goes on. Notice that when he came out on Thursday he | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
said nothing about the overall problems if we remained in. If | :10:21. | :10:29. | |
you're going to be impartial then you had damned well better say | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
something about the alternative case and the threats of remaining are | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
very clear. Mervyn King said there is a crisis going on and he does not | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
see an end to it. Why don't we hear from him about that? Has he breached | :10:45. | :10:53. | |
his obligations as Governor of the Bank of England? I believe that he | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
has. Should he resign? I think he ought to be asked why he has not | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
brought out both sides of the issue. He used to work for Goldman Sachs. | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
They are running through this, funding the campaign, he has been | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
very clear on it. You bring out Goldman Sachs, lack of impartiality, | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
you think he is not keeping his remit, should he resign? I think he | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
needs to answer about this one simple charge. I would like to see | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
the e-mail exchange over this issue, the telephone conversation minutes, | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
to see whether the Treasury has had any involvement in this process | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
whatsoever, what worries me slightly about what is going on, the Bank of | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
Scotland comes out on Thursday and then suddenly the head of the IMF | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
comes out on Friday with a similar prediction. These are the same | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
people that were telling us all that the UK is too small to leave and too | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
insignificant. Now we are so insignificant that we are plunging | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
the world into an economic crash. Are we saying this was an accident? | :12:16. | :12:26. | |
The governor did not call? Let me ask you this, we know what made... | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
Are you saying they are colluding? I wonder. Do you have any evidence? | :12:35. | :12:42. | |
Suddenly on Wednesday and Thursday, you have reports coming out, do you | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
think they spoke to each other about what they are doing? I wonder about | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
that. The Chancellor is supporting the governor, he then stands behind | :12:52. | :13:00. | |
Christine Lagarde. We know that they are players in this. The IMF always | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
works with them. We know which major economic authorities you don't like. | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
The Treasury, the IMF, the Bank of England, the OECD, which major | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
economic authorities do you rate? There have been some good reports | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
out, there are a number of good economists, lots of others from the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
city who have produced a report which got very little coverage about | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
the prospect... Any major economic apologies? Yes but when they have | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
come out with these reports they have said the UK would continue to | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
grow. Not as quickly. Not as quickly. My point is if you're going | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
to be balanced you need to constantly reference that point and | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
if they want to say that there is a possibility this could lead to a | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
problem he must also point out that if we remain there is a possibility | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
that we will be damaged by this. You made that .3 times. Let me ask you, | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
can you name a major economic authority on your side of the | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
argument? I would not expect one to be on our side. So you have none? It | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
would be completely unusual for all these institutions not to want to | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
act the status quo. All these institutions said there was no | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
problem in 2007 and then one year later we hit the buffers and the | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
economy went down. None of them predicted it. Including the | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
Conservatives. None of them have apologised for their failure. | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
I want to show you this chart. This shows our balance of payments, our | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
deficit. It is the difference between our exports and imports. We | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
import a lot more than we export in goods and services. It has | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
continually got worse under your government. This deficit, which is | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
multi-billion, is financed by foreigners who buy our sterling as I | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
to make up the gap. If Brexit create a falling pound, why would the | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
foreigners continue to pay for our deficit? If the economy didn't | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
perform, why would be, but if you look at all those who predicted | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
where we would be now, they all said the threat of Brexit would actually | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
bring the pound crashing. The pound is now rising back up, close to | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
where it was when we started this campaign. 10% on last November. We | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
had this deficit, it is financed by foreigners. If they lose confidence | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
in this country, confidence in Stirling, how do we pay for this? We | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
have to make sure we run the economy in a way that they have confidence | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
in it, we have to get some of those regulations down, we have to make | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
British industry more competitive. We have to have a better plan to get | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
industry working again. That would be in the long term, this could be a | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
short-term problem that could hit in the summer. If it results leaving in | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
an uncontrolled, plummeting sterling, and the foreigners because | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
of the uncertainty and sterling going down are saying we are not | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
going to continue to finance it, the bank would have to raise interest | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
rates, wouldn't it? If that was the circumstance, yes, but it is what | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
you plan to do. Why are they investing in what we are doing at | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
the moment? They buy the bonds because they believe the Government | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
has a long-term plan to get the deficit down and reduce borrowing. | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
Therefore they believe the UK is a good investment and running a trade | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
surplus with the rest of the world. We are running a huge deficit. Yes, | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
but we are running a trade surplus. If they need to finance this | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
deficit, and it is not the budget deficit, it is how the foreigners by | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
our assets in order to help us run this deficit. If interest rate did | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
rise, it follows that mortgage rates could rise substantially. Yes but | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
the alternative could be the same, in other words if they believe what | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
we are doing is right for the economy they are prepared to back | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
it, which means you wouldn't have rising interest rates. All of this | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
is speculation because we don't know. Boris Johnson has admitted | :17:41. | :17:48. | |
that after Brexit there would be a Nike tick, that he believes the | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
economy would take a hit, but it would recover strongly. Do you | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
believe that? Possibly but this is speculation about something nobody | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
knows. There has been speculation about forecast in these economies, | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
most of them are wrong because people are unable to tell us about | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
what they think about our prospects afterwards. If we vote to leave, we | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
are already able to show we can get our money back in due course and we | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
are able to start planning our own economy so we are able to get the | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
kind of deals we need. That shows you have a plan that works. You | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
could offer short-term crisis in the interim, couldn't you? They are | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
worried whether their mortgage will have risen by August or September of | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
this year. If that were to happen but the word is if. This is pure | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
speculation. The point I am making is that the reality is it may go in | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
the opposite direction. Nobody can say that. The EU guarantees a number | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
of social protections for workers, covering things like equal pay, | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
working time, maternity pay. Can you pledged to fight to maintain all of | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
these protections if we leave? All of these were accepted by the | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
Conservative government and I believe strongly then need to be | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
protections for workers. All of these things in a democracy are | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
debated but the British government have actually themselves instituted | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
protections for workers. So would you fight to keep the protections | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
they currently have under EU guarantees? As it stands, yes. Why | :19:33. | :19:40. | |
should people trust you because you opposed the Web Time directive in | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
1996, and voted against the minimum wage in 1997. Why would they have | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
not looked to you for this social protection? Because rather than | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
forecast ahead, look back at what has happened to them. The | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
immigration has damaged them. I'm simply saying what has happened, | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
therefore my argument has been, and you have known that over a long | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
time, over nine years I have argued this process has been most damaging | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
to the people at the low skilled end. That is the migration issue, it | :20:14. | :20:22. | |
may well be true. I'm asking you why should people trust you on these EU | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
social protections that they would remain if we came out since you | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
voted against them when they were being proposed? The working Time | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
directive gave little or no flexibility at the time. It has been | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
in place and we had to work with it. You protect the workforce but you | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
make sure the competition that they face in terms of their jobs is | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
actually fair competition, not unfair competition. What has | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
happened, as you saw on Thursday with the national insurance numbers, | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
is a very high proportion of people coming in in under 52 weeks here who | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
have no commitment to the UK often staying in bed sits, compete on the | :21:05. | :21:12. | |
low salary end of life. Is the working Time directive, which | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
guarantees the hours people work in a week and proper breaks, is that | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
safe after Brexit or not? UK law would enshrine what we think is best | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
for protection of workforce and that is right. A democratic government | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
will decide on what it thinks is right. That is possible for Labour | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
or Conservative. I believe it is right to have it, the question is | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
how flexible... People watching this will not be reassured by this. I | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
will stick to the agreements we have. You point your fist in the | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
Commons when the Chancellor announced the new national living | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
wage, now you say it is a magnet for migrants, what changed? I said it is | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
a good people for people wanting to come and work here because they will | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
get a higher wage. I am wholly in favour of a rise to the minimum wage | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
because I believe that over time what happens to businesses is they | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
have got around paying lower wages... Would you still be in | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
favour of it if we stayed in the EU? Yes, because it is the best way you | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
can drive the wages up but if we stay in the EU it will become a | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
magnet for people to come in here and it will lead to huge problems. | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
The point I made on Tuesday this week was that have we have seen | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
already lots of people from the EU tend to come in. The vast majority | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
of people coming from the European Union into the UK, they tend to be | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
low skills, they tend to be ones taking a high proportion of those | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
low skilled jobs. They have taken them at lesser salary and driven it | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
down. The overall average wage will still be low for those on low | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
skills. You have brought up migration several times in this | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
interview, isn't the blunt truth, because I was asking about the | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
economics, you are losing the economic arguments, the polls show | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
that, you are more dependent on scaring people. John Major says: | :23:25. | :23:36. | |
What do you say? Rubbish. Very simple, he is talking nonsense. He | :23:37. | :23:46. | |
said only a few years ago that there was a real issue over immigration. | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
The Government had a target to get tens of thousands, the limit down to | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
tens of thousands, we are not achieving that. We talked about it | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
in the run-up to the election. The Prime Minister himself made a strong | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
commitment that we would ensure our borders were protected against | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
people coming to be here so it is nonsense because we are not raising | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
this is an issue because we are trying to win the referendum. Most | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
people in the country believes there is an issue about the open border | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
with the European Union. Why is it demagoguery, why is it extremism to | :24:22. | :24:31. | |
speak for British people who feel like their views are being tossed | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
aside? If you don't do it, the extreme parties get onto it. Was it | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
wise Boris Johnson to compare the EU's ambitions? I thought it was a | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
good article because he spoke about this nonsensical... Was it wise to | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
compare it with Hitler? Do you think Hitler's efforts to unify Europe are | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
the same as the European Union's efforts? I think the whole process | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
of trying to drive Europe together by force or democracy ultimately | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
makes problems. Isn't this referendum getting vaguely absurd? | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
We have the Prime Minister dangling the thought of world War three if we | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
leave, and on your side we have Boris Johnson saying Hitler and the | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
European Union are on the same script. It is both nonsense and you | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
know that. All he is doing in the interview is talking about the trend | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
towards the idea, and he's using historical parallels to explain it. | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
You go through this great idea that somehow there is a thing called | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
greater Europe. Whether or not you like the linguistics of this, my | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
point remains the same. If you vote to remain on the 23rd, you are | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
voting, the 12 residents said it clear that they intend to deepen... | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
The five presidents. The five presidents rather. David Cameron and | :26:04. | :26:10. | |
George Osborne won't debate other Tory ministers during the | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
referendum, are they concerned about party unity or just running scared? | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
You will have to ask them. My view about it is that it is right to have | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
a proper debate and by not opening that debate the British public will | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
be left to wonder why they were not allowed to see the two opposing | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
sides of the argument from the leading figures. You would debate | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
the Prime Minister? Yes, we need to get these things straight | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
face-to-face. After all, if this were an election would be Remain | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
side be allowed to say we won't debate Ed Miliband fustian might | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
know, they cannot do that. There are two side to this argument, if two | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
sides have to debate it that is right and proper. It should be down | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
to impartiality that we have two sides, the two sets of leaders. Iain | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
Duncan Smith, thank you. Now, the Commons are elected, | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
the House of Lords are not and is supposed to be | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
a "revising chamber". But have their lord and ladyships | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
been overstepping the mark? Over the the past year, | :27:18. | :27:19. | |
they've inflicted 60 defeats on a Government that's now poised | :27:20. | :27:21. | |
to clip the Lord's wings - reducing their power | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
to block changes in the law. But in an exclusive interview before | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
she steps down as the speaker of the House of Lords in the summer, | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
Baroness D'Souza has told us that the powers of the Lords | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
should not be curtailed. It's very obvious why | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
they are called the crossbenchers, My guide knows this place pretty | :27:36. | :27:43. | |
well, how it works, who's who. Since 2011, she's been Lord Speaker, | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
a role which involves overseeing proceedings here, | :27:51. | :27:52. | |
representing the Lords at home and abroad, and sitting | :27:53. | :27:54. | |
on a sack of wool. But the business in here over | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
which Baroness D'Souza presides has come under increasing criticism | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
from the Government. 247 members of the House of Lords | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
sit as Conservatives peers, making the governing party | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
a significant minority of the 807 members eligible to take | :28:15. | :28:16. | |
part in the Upper House. The Government has faced 60 defeats | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
in the House of Lords in the most The rate of defeats this time | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
round is more than twice that Then, the Government was defeated | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
in less than a quarter of votes compared to more | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
than half in the present one. Now there's a sense that the Lords | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
are too rebellious, they have been too rebellious over the last few | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
years and essentially the Lords You know, all governments | :28:46. | :28:47. | |
and all parliamentarians, or at least House of Commons, | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
always feel that the House of Lords is a place that thwarts them | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
in one way or another. And they're right, they do, | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
but that is in the nature They have all the power | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
and rightly so. I still think it's right | :29:07. | :29:14. | |
that the Lords should be free to scrutinise and to question | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
and to hold the Government to account, and to send back | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
legislation which it feels is not adequate, either in terms | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
of its clarity or because perhaps it infringes from time to time | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
individual liberties And that's exactly what happened | :29:30. | :29:31. | |
last October. The House of Lords effectively | :29:32. | :29:38. | |
blocked the Government's proposed changes to tax credits, | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
a massive blow to George Unelected Labour and Liberal Lords | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
have voted down a matter passed by the elected House of Commons, | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
that raises constitutional issues and David Cameron and I are clear | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
they will need to be dealt with. The way they dealt with it was to | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
ask Lord Strathclyde He concluded peers should | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
lose their absolute veto over detailed laws known as secondary | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
legislation, and instead be allowed only to send it back | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
to the Commons to think again. There's going to be a lively debate | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
about this in the House of Lords and I think that there will be a lot | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
of views expressed and obviously you would expect the Lords | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
to want to retain their power to scrutinise their power, | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
their privilege. If you start curtailing or eroding | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
or limiting the power of the Lords to do its job, | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
there is a question There is another question, | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
too, over the sheer number Baroness D'Souza told me | :30:35. | :30:43. | |
she would be pushing for a Lords motion in the new session, | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
she says the House of Lords should not be larger than the Commons, | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
suggesting the number of peers At least 20% of them should be | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
independents or crossbenchers, and no one party should | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
have a political majority. She said all of that can | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
be achieved by 2020. So, the size is making | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
it inefficient? It does have an impact unfortunately | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
on the role of the House of Lords in holding the Government | :31:07. | :31:16. | |
to account. It's very difficult if you're | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
limited to sort of say, in timed debates, a minute or two | :31:20. | :31:21. | |
minutes to speak, to develop a sustained argument | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
which will convince your fellow peers but also the Government | :31:25. | :31:26. | |
of what it is you are The traditional pomp and ceremony | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
of the Lords is well known but its relationship | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
with the Commons and exactly what role it can play in the future | :31:34. | :31:35. | |
is far more uncertain. And the man who was charged | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
by the Government to review the Lord's powers, Tam Strathclyde, | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
joins us now from Oxfordshire. Welcome to the programme. Nice to | :31:46. | :31:54. | |
see the sun is shining rate you are. We've just heard, what would be the | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
point of the Lloyds if the powers are watered down as your review | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
proposes. What do you say to her? There is no suggestion and no | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
recommendation by anybody in government to fundamentally change | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
the powers of the House of Lords. I made the most mild and humble | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
recommendation about process, where frankly most of us had understood | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
that the customs and conventions that had been built up would stick. | :32:30. | :32:36. | |
Last October, they broke down, as a result there is no consensus and | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
agreement on what those powers could be. I propose a new power to be able | :32:42. | :32:55. | |
to reject and ask. What is interesting is every school child | :32:56. | :33:03. | |
knows that the purpose of the House of Lords is to scrutinise but not to | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
block. What happened was the House of Lords using a veto and given it | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
is unelected, I don't think that power should ever be used. Is the | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
government going to implement your recommendations? Since I reported | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
before Christmas there have been four further reports, three in the | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
House of Lords and one in the House of Commons, commenting on this. I | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
think what the government will want to do is look carefully at these | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
reports before responding. I don't think there needs to be a rush to | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
legislation, and there may well be an attempt to get an agreement | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
between the parties in the House of Lords, between the two Houses of | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
Parliament. But if that consensus cannot be reached, I think the | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
government will have no option but to legislate on this matter. Your | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
government has had 60 defeats at the hands of the Lords. You wonder | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
whether the conservative tune has changed because it was Tory peers | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
inflicting defeat on Labour governments. Now you are getting a | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
taste of your own historic medicine, you just don't like it. I was Leader | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
of the Opposition for most of those years, particularly after the end of | :34:26. | :34:44. | |
the last century. We did defeat the government regularly on primary | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
legislation, not secondary legislation. What was interesting in | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
your package is the government has been defeated in the House of Lords | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
many more times than it did in the first Parliament of Tony Blair's | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
government. Over half of all the votes in the House of Lords are | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
defeated. This is not revision and scrutiny, this is not complementing | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
the work of the House of Commons, this is an aggressive political | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
statement why the other political parties. Is it really? This is a | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
government which increasingly brings forward ill thought out ideas which | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
it has not planned in advance, not without consultation, and is forced | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
into U-turns. There has been a series of them. That is why you need | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
a second chamber, to do proper scrutiny. I am the greatest defender | :35:36. | :35:43. | |
of the second chamber and indeed, a Conservative Party that fully | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
understands the central tenets of the Constitution, the balance | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
between the houses, but what we've seen in the last 12 months, and | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
remember, this is the first 12 months of a new conservative | :36:00. | :36:01. | |
administration, people who were elected to government, scarcely one | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
year ago, and what we've seen in the House of Lords are blocking tactics, | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
using vetoes rather than working with the House of Commons in order | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
to improve that legislation which you rightly criticise. Are you a | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
supporter of the way that governments have bloated the House | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
of Lords? There are over 800 active peers. The US Senate needs 100 and | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
it has real power. You've not got much power and those over 800 of | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
you. Is that sensible? When Mr Blair and his friends throughout the | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
hereditary peers in the 1990s I did argue that there was an inevitable | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
consequence that prime ministers would try to increase their own | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
numbers in the house. What's interesting about Mr Cameron is he | :36:55. | :37:04. | |
has created far more Labour peers. Wide of the need to be 800 of you? | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
You don't. -- why does there need to be 800. But those who want to reduce | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
it to 500 should say how they plan to do that. I would prefer either | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
people to be involved in the decision and they should be directly | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :37:31. | :37:32. | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. | :37:33. | :37:44. | |
Any expectations of a quiet week at Stormont after the election | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
were quashed on Thursday as the Ulster Unionists | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
After losing his seat, the independent unionist | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
John McCallister wasn't there to witness the development | :37:55. | :37:56. | |
but his legacy lives on as the man behind the Opposition Bill. | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
And the face of Stormont is changing in another important way. | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
The election returned our highest number of female MLAs yet and I'll | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
And with me throughout with their thoughts Newton Emerson | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
The will they, won't they questions of the pre-election period were well | :38:12. | :38:23. | |
We don't yet have a government but we do have an opposition. | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
The debate around Mike Nesbitt's unilateral move continues. | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
Was it visionary leadership or mere grand-standing? | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
In the meantime, Stormont-watchers are beginning to think | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
through what opposition will actually look like. | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
John McCallister was the architect of the bill that made it possible, | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
and the independent MLA Claire Sugden has welcomed | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
Your boys welcome to the programme. There's a huge irony, when you | :38:45. | :38:57. | |
challenge Mike Nesbitt for the leadership of the UUP, used it on a | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
platform of going to opposition. You ask anyone, your parting gift this | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
entry was your private members bill and opposition which he has taken | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
advantage of and you're not there to be part of it. The bit me has always | :39:10. | :39:20. | |
been about creating an opposition, and opposition holds a government to | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
account. It also puts enormous pressure on those in government to | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
actually govern and we have to move away from this idea of endless | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
government by peace process negotiation with everyone, if you | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
are elected to government I congratulate the DUP and Sinn Fein, | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
they got their man they restored as before, only one seat down, and the | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
UUP it was sensible to go into opposition. There is a | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
responsibility there to do that so I'd encountered as grandstanding | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
because in UK politics Leader of the Opposition is known as the worst job | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
in politics, it is tough going holding a government to account with | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
all of the powers and trappings of government and actually coming up | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
and looking like a good thing at the next election. You agree? Of course. | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
Whatever his reasons for doing it with the fact that we now have an | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
opportunity for the within the assembly and that can only be a good | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
thing. The biggest problem with our politics for so long as we had one | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
holding the government to account and now we do. I am excited about it | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
but I do think moving forward the Ulster Unionists have the data in a | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
correct way, and too many occasions they have made sweeping statements. | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
They came at the government last year, I'm not sure why. You didn't | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
follow through on what they could have done in providing an unofficial | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
opposition last year so now they have the opportunity to be an | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
official opposition many to do it right. The Alliance Party can be | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
part of the government is it fills the role of department of justice | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
and across community votes but it copy but the opposition. You as an | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
independent could be invited to be the justice minister but you | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
wouldn't be allowed to be in the opposition. But odd. When John | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
presented his bill it was taken apart by the two main parties, | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
turkeys voting for Christmas, we are where we are and in this next | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
mandate we can move towards making a stronger so cannot democracy that | :41:28. | :41:29. | |
looks like other parts of the world. How do you think the relationship | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
will work between the Ulster Unionists, the SDLP, I don't know if | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
you have a view on whether it should stay or not and the smaller groups | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
and independence, could there be a bigger opposition of voice alongside | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
the official opposition? I think there should be. Your point and the | :41:48. | :41:56. | |
Alliance Party, they wanted to see and push for technical groups, | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
Claire 's point that that might evolve if Alliance were to forego | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
the justice department, you would then have about 14 MLAs that would | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
be very strong and say we should have a technical group. Might view | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
on the SDLP as I think in the three assembly elections I've been a | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
candidate they gone from 16 seats to 14 to 12, they came within 89 votes | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
of being out of the process effectively in west Belfast. You | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
cannot continue with that and be in the opposition from within the | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
government. Your vote going down. Without looking insane, hang on, | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
should we be outside and be a proper opposition and work in the Ulster | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
Unionists? -- without looking outside. I take the point that the | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
UUP, there is a responsible to the do it properly, not just opposition | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
for opposition sake. This has to be constructive opposition, real | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
meaningful politics coming up with alternative identities and that's a | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
long grind but it also puts pressure on the government to deliver and | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
step up to the plate. How much do you think the seating arrangements | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
matter? We have a system where parties from the two extremes of the | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
spectrum have to work together but people are familiar with the | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
adversarial style where the government and the opposition face | :43:30. | :43:31. | |
each other across the chamber, we don't have that honour should we | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
have that? Yes, because we are in a power-sharing arrangement and that | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
they does become the case of the Sinn Fein and DUP will become the | :43:41. | :43:42. | |
government than they have to present that to the public. I can say that | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
when and not standing in front of the public, but they should be. You | :43:49. | :43:56. | |
want them sitting together and facing the opposition? You have to | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
know Sinn Fein and the DUP don't want the optics. They do it behind | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
closed doors, why can't they be transparent? Ring it on. I think we | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
need to start moving towards normal politics and I think this is the | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
first that in doing that so I'm excited for the next five years as | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
long as people do the job right. You can't influence where people sit any | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
more and I'm not sure how much influence you had had but do you | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
think the optics that matter? I don't get a red herring. It's one of | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
the things I was going to put on the bill and I felt was a battle that I | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
didn't need to take on. Identity will happen this term but I think | :44:38. | :44:45. | |
the point about it helps it look like a cohesive government around | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
issues like collective responsibility and things like that, | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
that's where we need to get to. We've had this too long. Without | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
people almost -- we've had people in the DUP saying we're not ready | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
government with Sinn Fein and vice versa. Those seating arrangements | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
suit the narratives that each party want to put out but what you need is | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
a cohesive and coherent government. How difficult you think you were | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
before Sinn Fein and the DUP to be the two parties in the government | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
working together without the cover of any of this? Claire made the | :45:21. | :45:28. | |
point that they do it behind closed doors, not always liking the optics, | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
but do you think there would be people who be uncomfortable about | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
just those two parties from the absolute opposite ends of the | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
spectrum having to work together? That's what the people have voted | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
for. We have to remember that we had no election ten days ago, that's | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
what we got elected as our government. Those two big parties. | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
Having the fig leaves might be a big comfort to them but it's time, it | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
lets off the hook of to deliver, oh, it's all terribly difficult. The | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
other problem in speaking and dealing with both Sinn Fein and the | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
DUP journey progression of my opposition bill became clear that | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
there was many incidents that the big parties agreed and then they had | :46:21. | :46:29. | |
problems of the smaller parties, keeping confidentiality around | :46:30. | :46:31. | |
executive decisions or discussions, it caused problems. I think in some | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
regards while there be a nervousness at the start, I think it makes it | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
easier for smaller government partners. You talked about the | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
difficulties they could before the Sinn Fein and DUP working together | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
closing government, what about the smaller groups and smaller parties? | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
How do you think you get on with them? I think we're there on merit. | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
When not in competition so we're quite keen to work together from the | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
point of view of getting delivery. As I said, people say what impact | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
any have on as an independent, I forget an opportunity because big | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
parties and threatened by me and as an open door. Hopefully that will | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
happen in the next five. We will see. | :47:17. | :47:18. | |
Let's find out what my guests make of what we've just heard. | :47:19. | :47:29. | |
When you surprised of Mike Nesbitt is the opposition? It's deftly not | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
what he was planning but the electoral recovery plot failed to | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
happen. You can over analyse the strategy. It's simply a case of | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
throwing everything in the air and seeing where it lands. It's | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
disruptive tactics to try and change the playing field and see if he's | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
got more options coming out of that. There's no long-term plan for this. | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
Due think it is a system which can work as it is currently shaping? I | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
think that in terms of what this has been said, there's an element of | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
truth that, Mike Nesbitt and making this announcement about going into | :48:13. | :48:21. | |
this opposition and saying into battle, his unlike Corporal Jones | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
from that army. There's no substance. Opposition can work and | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
as a mechanism there to make it work and as the architect of it said, if | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
he wants to make it work, he need to be making a call to John McAllister | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
and bring him into the fold and saying we need help. Last year | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
nobody really noticed when the Ulster Unionist Party left the | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
executive. It didn't affect how business was done at the assembly. | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
If they going to make a proper opposition and the need to have a | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
strategy for how that will happen. Right now when not seeing that. I | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
don't think John was callous that will be sitting by the phone | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
expecting that call. What about the STL P? You think there is pressure | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
on Mr Wood to form part of that opposition? All three of the smaller | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
parties are split on the middle each over this issue. Our move as | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
dramatic as what has happened is going to do exacerbate the debate. | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
It puts more pressure on the leader and it could easily be what tipped | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
the balance. He can't appear to be following Nesbitt 's lead so you'll | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
have to wait until the last minute to make a decision and claim it's | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
based on the programme for government. Very tricky one for | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
Alliance because as we are saying Alliance can be a government but | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
can't be in opposition. It has eight seats, you need nine to be part of | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
the opposition, so can't clear the hurdle. It can't but let's remove | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
that from the equation because I don't think there's anyone in any of | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
the political parties who believes any of the four other parties can | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
take the Justice ministry at this point in time. It is still too | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
contentious and fraught. Alliance needs to be there at this point. | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
We'll talk to you later. Thank you. Let's have a quick look back | :50:15. | :50:16. | |
at the political week in 60 seconds The political class of 2016 arrived | :50:17. | :50:32. | |
at work fresh from election success. With the DUP as the largest party. | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
We're delighted to be back with the team. Good to have my 38 members | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
here. Discussions of the programme the government began and there were | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
some unhappiness with what was on offer. We're very far off Acer | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
stanch a programme for government. Then we had that moment when Mike | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
Nesbitt made headlines. The Ulster Unionist group will has decided | :51:00. | :51:01. | |
unanimously to form the first official opposition of this Northern | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
Ireland assembly. Let battle commence. I think that rather than | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
being seen as leadership, ill be seen as a lack of leadership. Alex | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
Kane said he would sing at Stormont in address if someone was elected so | :51:17. | :51:26. | |
it was time to stand and deliver. I am what I am! | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
Alex Kane, a born exhibitionist if ever there was one, | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
and it gives a new twist to the old question is the image | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
of a Stormont full of men in grey suits slowly changing? | :51:39. | :51:41. | |
We now have 30 women gracing the blue benches and I'm joined | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
by two of the newest recruits, Alliance's Paula Bradshaw, | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
who took a seat in South Belfast, and Linda Dillon from Sinn Fein, | :51:49. | :51:50. | |
who won the seat vacated by Martin McGuinness in Mid-Ulster. | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
30 women were returned out of 108, that's a third up on five years ago. | :51:54. | :52:01. | |
Absolutely. I think that I was delighted to say we brought three | :52:02. | :52:12. | |
new candidates through and all of them women so I think all the | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
political parties increase the representation. What we're seeing | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
here effectively is an organic change in society in Northern | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
Ireland. We are the second generation of women who've been in | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
power in the is in 70s and I think we need to continue to nurture women | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
in all walks of life so we can bring them through in terms front line | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
politics. But then know what you make of the statistics, 30 out of | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
108. It up on five years ago but it still under a third, 27%, a third | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
isn't brilliant. What were aiming for is 50%. It's far from good | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
enough. It is no improvement, it's not anywhere near where we need to | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
be. I have launched a bill already in terms of quotas for local | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
councils and I think that's where you get a experience. Boss quotas | :53:02. | :53:11. | |
cannot work in isolation, we do need them. It's not something that I | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
would have been in favour, took a long time to convince me within the | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
party because we already have that stands on the quotas and 30% of the | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
candidates in any winnable seat should be women. But I feel that | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
unfortunately it's needed but it certainly is not good work in | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
isolation and it's something I will raise all the time whenever I was in | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
the council in Mid Ulster, the minute the way it is run in the | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
rural councils it's an friendly in terms of family time because all of | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
the meetings on the evenings. I understand that is because a lot of | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
the men work full time jobs but my role as a mother and a wife is no | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
less valuable than theirs. Sue your legislation would be for quotas | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
council level. Should there be quotas forced on in future? That's | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
an excepted matters so I can't influence that. If you get a dry the | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
local government at that point then that will lead into the assembly | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
because we need to now be telling parties that you need to go out and | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
support those young capable women that in your community that could be | :54:20. | :54:21. | |
members of your party, represent your part in the future in politics | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
and that's only to be going. You're not a fan of quotas? We have looked | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
at them in the Alliance Party but we do that is necessary. I would like | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
to be disrespectful to those women who've come through in this round on | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
a quota system but we are naturally a very gender balance party that is | :54:40. | :54:47. | |
shown in selection process. Women are underrepresented the sewer LGBT | :54:48. | :54:55. | |
members, young people, in many ways -- so are LGBT members. We have a | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
Democratic party council and that the mechanism through which we | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
define our policy positions and we ensure that there are | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
representatives from the LGBT group, young people and Alliance women to | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
give them a support mechanism through which they can debate public | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
policies so internally we are very supportive of affirmative action and | :55:21. | :55:22. | |
making sure women's voices are heard but in terms of putting forward to | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
the electorate they forced slate of candidates that has been | :55:30. | :55:31. | |
orchestrated I don't think the letter at reward parties were doing | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
that. How significant you think it is that we now have a female First | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
Minister? You might not like her politics but you Myra from making it | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
to the top of the greasy pole? I think it's important we have women | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
in leading roles in society. Whatever level of society that may | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
be, politics, business or private or public sector, it's important to see | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
the women can do it. In terms of forts gender quotas, I don't agree | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
because I think we knew needed. Our ruling body is 50-50 and the reason | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
for that is if we don't have women in decision-making roles the right | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
decisions for women will not be made. That has been shown and borne | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
out even in the local government changes. There should have been a | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
lot of change in terms of making it more family friendly, it didn't | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
happen because women were not listen to and women were not listen to | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
because there weren't enough of them in the room. The point about LGBT | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
candidates, young candidates, if you focus simply on women, that's fine | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
but there are all kinds of other wine or the groups which also want, | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
demand and deserve equal representation. I accept that and we | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
also have new nationals with our communities and they need to be | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
represented in the future. All of that needs to be looked at. This is | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
only one part of it but I do believe that women make decisions but if | :57:05. | :57:06. | |
they're not in decision-making roles they won't get the make any | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
decisions. Women put off by long days and they sitting is any more | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
than men are? There's two part of that, we have women in senior | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
positions in the community, charities, women have a strong | :57:22. | :57:23. | |
influence in terms of policy development within the government | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
and in terms of service provision, so they are there. That's another | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
issue in Northern Ireland and we experience it in the Alliance Party, | :57:33. | :57:34. | |
there's still a threat from polymer truths. We still get the bullets and | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
oppose, death threats, the commentary on social media. It's not | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
for everybody to put themselves forward so we need to find ways to | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
give women a voice even if they don't want to go into elective | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
politics. When you sit someone like that, whenever you hear Paula talk | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
about those issues you can understand people are hoping he is | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
the last thing they want to do. What would you into political life? I | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
think it is difficult but I have been a Republican activist all my | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
life since I was a teenager and it's not something I aspired to, I never | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
wanted to be in the assembly or the council, but thankfully I did and I | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
had people who supported me and those were both men and women within | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
my party but I do think that seeing strong women in leadership roles in | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
my own party showed me that that was something that was possible. Getting | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
that support, having people tell you you can do this, it was a big part | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
of it. I'm a Republican activist of the heart and that's where it came | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
from. You have been involved in active politics before and you try | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
to get into the assembly a number of times. I've never stood for December | :58:42. | :58:51. | |
before. Westminster. And a counsellor. Has lived up to | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
expectations instalments so far? It was a busy week. Were thrown | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
straight into it but we hit the ground running and I've enjoyed it | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
so far. It seems so real but the staff at this and we have been | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
supportive so I'm looking forward to it. Interesting to hear your | :59:11. | :59:11. | |
thoughts. Thank you. Just time for a final chat | :59:12. | :59:13. | |
with Patricia and Newton. Will the increased number of female | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
MLAs make a difference I think it will. Women have a | :59:17. | :59:32. | |
different management style, a different leadership style, there | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
tends to be much more inclusive, more participatory. I don't know the | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
quotas work, if you look at the experience in the dialler elections | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
earlier this year. Quotas were divisive amongst parties and between | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
them. It's all legal challenges and it ended with 22% female TDs so... | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
Quotas or no quotas? There is a philosophical difference on this | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
between unionists and nationalists, a left right on cultural difference, | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
it's not universal. You will see that through Arlene Foster coming to | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
the fore. She engineers in general are proud of the fact that she has | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
made it as a woman without what they've perceived to be special | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
favours or tokenism and that will undermine and not in four quotas in | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
the assembly. The increased representation for women is good but | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
is not worried needs to be. If you look at the fact that Scottish | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Parliament has 35%, we have a long way to go in the assembly. Thank | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
you. coming. Great to see you both. Back | :00:35. | :00:35. | |
to you. Welcome back. Now, have you had enough | :00:36. | :00:50. | |
of the EU referendum? Well there's a Queen's speech | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
next week in which we're promised Her Majesty will be talking | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
about something other than Europe. When Her Majesty visits | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Parliament on Wednesday, front and centre in her speech | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
will be measures for curbing extremism, including banning hate | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
speakers from working with children And David Cameron will push forward | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
with Conservative plans for the British Bill of Rights, | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
in an attempt to assert the supremacy of UK courts | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
in the run-up to the EU referendum. The Prime Minister will also press | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
ahead with reforms to the adoption system, to speed up the placement | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
of children with permanent families. New rules will also be brought | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
in to make Britain a world leader in the development of driverless | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
cars, and the fishing port of Newquay may be about to become | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
the UK's first spaceport. It is one of eight sites | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
the Government will be looking at. And finally, schools in England | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
will be on the Queen's Along with the Government's | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
watered-down plans for academies, ministers will also now be | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
scrambling to work out new rules to stop parents | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
taking their children out of school for family holidays during term | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
time, following the High I don't get the impression there is | :02:01. | :02:11. | |
much to detract from the referendum campaign. Who knows whether any of | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
it will happen? You were just talking about the Lords and the | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
number of defeats, this has been a very torrid legislative session for | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
the government. You've had situations where the whips don't | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
seem to know what is going on. The Sunday trading Bill, it seemed like | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
the government did not realise they had not got the votes locked down. | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
Nobody knows who will be pro Minister after June the 23rd. Who | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
will be driving this legislation through? -- who will be Prime | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
Minister. Theresa May is a complicated opinion on the EU, she | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
wants to leave the EC HR but stay part of the EU. It is not there to | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
be exciting, it is to prove the government is doing something. To | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
the extent that there is any theme to what he announces, we need to go | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
back to 2005, David Cameron said he wants sunshine to win the day, the | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
wants his party to stop banging on about Europe and to be a social | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
reformer. There is a mention of reforming adoption systems, it is | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
like the big society has been wrenched back and David Cameron | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
wants people to think about his legacy as different from the one | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
nation Tory. Would be too much of an exaggeration to say that the | :03:44. | :03:55. | |
government is running the Remain campaign and is too busy doing that? | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
I don't think that it's an exaggeration at all. This speech is | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
going through the motions, I don't think it is something they need to | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
do. I don't think anyone will get terribly excited about it. This | :04:10. | :04:20. | |
British bill of rights, I had to look it up to see if it is the same | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
thing he has been talking about since opposition. But unless you | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
come out of the European Court, it does not make any difference. You | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
can always go to Strasberg. What was your take from Iain Duncan Smith. | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
He's an interesting media performer but I'm not sure he has appeal | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
beyond the base. The swing voter everybody is trying to target tends | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
to be an older northern man, classic Labour voter. What figures can speak | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
to those kind of people? I think all politicians have got a problem. Some | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
pollsters said, who is the figure who could convince people? They | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
said, the guy from money supermarket. The Governor of the | :05:12. | :05:19. | |
Bank of England is the closest you get in the political sphere. This is | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
a real problem for the Leave campaign, they don't have enough | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
people who preach beyond the converted. I was at the premiere of | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
Brexit The Movie. I felt that was a missed opportunity. So many | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
commentators were wheeled out who were over the age of 50, the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
audience loved it but will it appeal beyond? I worry about that. | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
Commentators over the age of 50 will never catch on. What did you take of | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
it? There was a John Major called and Iain Duncan Smith winced with | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
fury. You realised this Tory civil war, the wounds were first fleshed | :06:03. | :06:10. | |
out 30 years ago. This stuff goes deep. Clearly immigration is his | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
strongest card and the idea that it is a conspiracy between these people | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
to keep us in, that is going to be their strongest card. That and | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
immigration. He did effectively call for the resignation of Mark Carney. | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
Now the rhetorical heat has been turned up on both sides | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
Let's just compare David Cameron's language in November last year | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
Some people seem to say that really Britain couldn't survive, | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
couldn't do OK outside the European Union. | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Let's be frank, Britain is an amazing country. | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
We've got the fifth biggest economy in the world, we are | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
If we vote to leave on the 23rd of June, we will be | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
We will be voting for fewer jobs, we will be voting for lower growth. | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
We will be voting potentially for a recession. | :07:09. | :07:21. | |
He has dined out on the Euro-sceptic shilling for all these years and it | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
contrasts hugely with what he is saying no. It was bound to come back | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
and haunt her. It is remarkable the extent to which David Cameron has | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
been radicalised by his own campaign. Being in number ten is | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
like being in a cult. He has lost everything about his heritage. He is | :07:46. | :07:53. | |
fundamentally Euro-sceptic. Now we hear somebody banging the drum as if | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
Armageddon is happening if we vote out. It is bizarre. It is a problem, | :07:58. | :08:05. | |
what is the true David Cameron? Is it the one that we had only last | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
November? We should go back into the archives further, to see what he is | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
saying then,. But is it the one who says if we leave there will be armed | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
conflict? The issue for me, if you believe this, why would you risk | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
armed conflict for minor changes to our welfare balance? There is a | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
really interesting difference between him and Theresa May. She | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
said the sky will not fall in but in a dispassionate way, on balance, I | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
want us to remain in. That is realistic. Jeremy Corbyn has handled | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
this better than a it Cameron. That is another politician who is | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
naturally Euro-sceptic comedy follows the left-wing line that | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
there is a democratic deficit, corporate interests. When he is | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
asked about it he gives an answer as he did yesterday that is about | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
social protections and workers and sounds quite convincing. What do you | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
make of it? When David Cameron and owns the referendum it was born of | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
panic. The cause we have short-term culture in politics, it was brought | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
about by the rise of Ukip, Nigel Farage was doing fantastically well. | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
Little did they know that they would only get one MP and it has backfired | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
massively. If this was going to risk Armageddon it was stupid and | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
irrational of the Prime Minister. I wanted to ask you about the polls | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
but we've not got time. By next week, maybe when it has sunk in, so | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
far we have not seen any difference in the polls. | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
Now, viewers in the North West will have just seen Conservative MP | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
for Cheadle Mary Robinson challenged about whether expenses | :09:59. | :10:00. | |
for volunteers on a Conservative election Battle Bus in the run-up | :10:01. | :10:02. | |
to last year's general election should have been charged | :10:03. | :10:04. | |
to her local campaign or the national party. | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
The Conservative Party are under investigation for failing | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
to declare these expenses - something they put down | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
to an administrative error - but Ms Robinson insisted | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
The party was quite clear to us locally that it would be included | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
in the national spend and that was what we relied on, | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
and from my point of view it was never going to be a national | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
The national party told you this was going to be a national expense? | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
The national party was clear that it was part of the national expense. | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
It is not going away. It is really important. Journalists come under a | :10:41. | :10:48. | |
lot of flak. This is a very difficult story to report. It is | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
about minor details, accounting. This has been kept alive entirely by | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
journalists. Particularly Michael Crick on Channel 4 News. Exactly. | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
Things come out and it is hard to keep them down. People sitting at | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
home thinking journalism is all terrible, for once people will think | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
happier. Think of the fury of the Labour moderates, this is an open | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
goal, a well-organised Labour Party, strong leadership, it might be | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
exposed a bit, but they should exploit this. They have got complete | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
silence. So far you've got 11 police forces investigating the | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
Conservative Party about fraud and not a pipsqueak. The reason there | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
are so quiet is because they are up to their necks in it as well. That | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
is the difficulty, that it has been very difficult for broadcasters to | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
get MPs on from other parties because they are all concerned that | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
they have too much to hide. When I asked Alan Johnston about it, he did | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
not know anything about it. Michael Portillo did not know about it | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
either. I found that quite remarkable. It is a hard story to | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
digests. What is the one sentence explanation for that? When there is | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
all this blunder about the EU, it is crowding everything out. The money | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
was charged to the national campaign which was under the legal limit. It | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
should have been charged to the local campaigns but that would have | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
put it over the legal limit and that is where the criminal penalties are. | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
This is a big story about the way elections are funded, which is | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
ridiculous. As soon as somebody gets into government they lose interest | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
in it. You need to cover American elections if you think that is | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
ridiculous. I'm serious, the evidence we have is about the | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
Conservatives, how serious? I think they will get away with it. I don't | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
think the Labour Party is well placed to exploit it. The problem is | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
it will solidify and consolidate a feeling lots of people have that | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
politicians are a bunch of crooks, most of them are not. This certainly | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
stinks. We shall see. The police investigations are going on. That is | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
it for today. Thank you to all of my guests. I will be back at the same | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
time next week here on BBC One. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. If | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. | :13:39. | :14:08. | |
The referendum on whether we should remain within the European Union | :14:09. | :14:13. |