Browse content similar to 15/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio. | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed. | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun. | :00:49. | :00:49. | |
But the country now faces a de facto partition. | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything? | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum. | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty? | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
Both sides join us to go head to head. | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
that? And coming up here: | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
even Westminster, we'll be asking As police promise a crackdown | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
on loyalist flags I'll be hearing reaction from | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
Mike Nesbitt, Alasdair McDonnell Join me in half an hour. | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
support amongst people is bigger than assumed. | :01:33. | :01:42. | |
The Sunni Islamist army known as ISIS is now in control | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
of huge swathes of northern and western Iraq, including | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
Until the weekend they looked like advancing relentlessly | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
on Baghdad but that offensive has now been slowed or even halted | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
The Iraqi army and its Shia milita allies vow that | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
Baghdad will not be taken and that a counter-attack will soon begin. | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has to do something to | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
reverse the humiliation of recent days, which saw | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
his US-trained and equipped Iraqi army, which outnumbered | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or surrender when confronted by ISIS. | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
The conflict has already created a humanitarian crisis, with hundreds | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
The Kurds have used the conflict to consolidate their hold on their | :02:22. | :02:31. | |
autonomous area in the north, parts of the west and the north are in the | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
grip of ISIS control and the Shias are hunkering down in the east. | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
All of which makes a three-way partition a real possibility with | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
The US is moving another of its massive aircraft carrier | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
battlefleets to the Gulf, though the White House shows no | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
While Iran says it's ready to help its Shia allies | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
and there are unconfoirmed reports that its revolutionary guard has | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's diplomatic editor Mark Urban. | :02:55. | :03:07. | |
Let's start with some basics. Who are ISIS and why are they | :03:08. | :03:17. | |
controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS is an extremist militant jihad | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
organisation and they have a pure Islamic concept based on 14th | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
century history and jurisprudence. What they want to do is correct -- | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
create this caliphate that do not recognise colonial boundaries so it | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
involves Syria and Iraq, and they could go down to Lebanon and | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Palestine, that is all fair game as far as they are concerned. And they | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
have this strict interpretation of Islam. The more interesting question | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
is why have semi-Sunni Muslims, along with them, these are precisely | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
the sort of people who in 2006, 2007, tribal leaders in the west of | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
the country rose up against. It was called the Awakening and the | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
Americans in power did and bankrolled it. These people turned | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
against them and admired them in large numbers, so why do they have | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
so many Sunni Muslims on their side? We hear about people going | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
back to Mosul. I think the answer is a perception | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
back to Mosul. I think the answer that the current government is | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
ruling in sectarian interests, Shia Muslim interest, and the Sunni | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
Muslims want self-determination and this is their best bet. | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
Muslims want self-determination and this is their Let me put up this map | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
to find out where we are going. We can see Mosul in the north, they | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
took that, and then they started, South, reports that the crit was | :04:37. | :04:45. | |
involved -- to grit -- to grit. What is the situation on the ground now? | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
We are in what you might call a consolidation or strategic pause as | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
American called it in 2003. ISIS are trying to consolidate their power in | :05:00. | :05:01. | |
Mosul, and now they have this major city and they are trying to show | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
they can run the city and get the power going, etc. Their southernmost | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
forces, that is a gorilla army, guys in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
with serious opposition. They would like to get the tanks and other | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
things into action but that could take weeks for them to be able to do | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
it. The government side is that they have counter-attacked, but it will | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
take a little while before these newly raised militia and other task | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
forces, call them what you will, can effectively counter-attacked. But | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
that is what will happen in the next week or two. We will see | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
increasingly large and serious government counter-attacked trying | :05:42. | :05:50. | |
to retake those places, and I fear a really difficult, bloody Syrian | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
style street by street battle for some of these urban centres. I would | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
like to have a look at this map, because the Kurds, as I mentioned, | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
they are consolidating their position in the autonomous region in | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
the north. The Islamist are taking over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
West. And of course the Shia Muslim are still dominant in control of | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
Baghdad and in parts of the south and east. Back to me looks like the | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
beginnings of the partition of Iraq. -- back to me. Well, it is, but we | :06:25. | :06:34. | |
have to caveat it in a few ways. Firstly, there are millions of | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
people in Iraq, so-called sushi, combined families, who do not fit | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
easily into the pattern. Do we see millions of people becoming refugees | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
under this scheme? There would be a lot of human tragedies if people | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
really did try to enforce this type partition. Secondly, there are Sunni | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
Muslim communities in the south of Baghdad, those places, once again, a | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
lot of misery and fighting will occur if people try to enforce a de | :07:05. | :07:14. | |
facto partition. There are still an awakening of forces. They are on the | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
side of the government. We heard about one group in Samarra of Sunni | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
Muslims fighting on the same side. It's a complex picture. They factor, | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
it does look like a partition, and if it goes further in that direction | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
it will. And partition will always be messy because people end up on | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
the wrong side of the lies. Finally, the big thing on that map, | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
Iran, a huge place, a huge border with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
becomes a key factor. It is becoming a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
was in Baghdad a few months ago, I did actually see Iranians | :07:58. | :07:58. | |
revolutionary guards in uniform. They were protecting a senior | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
Iranians official, so some numbers have been never some time and they | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
are also said to protect the political leaders and -- in his | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
compound. They are there. We think more of them are trying to organise | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
the defence of Baghdad to galvanise the Iraqi army, and they will not | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
allow the Iraqi government to fall. Mark, thank you for marking archive | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
this morning. -- marking our card. Tony Blair took Britain | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
into the Iraq conflict in 2003. He's now, among other things, envoy | :08:31. | :08:32. | |
to the Middle East representing That's the UN, the EU, | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
the US and Russia. This morning he entered | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
the debate about what should be My point is simple. If you left | :08:39. | :08:49. | |
Saddam in place in 2003, when 2011 happened and you have the Arab | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
revolutions going through Tunisia, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
Syria, you would still have had a major problem in Iraq. You can see | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
what happens when you leave the dictator in place, as has happened | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
with Bashar al-Assad. The problem doesn't go away. What I'm trying to | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
say is, we can rerun the debates about 2003, and there are perfectly | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
legitimate points on either side, but where we are in 2014, we have do | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
understand that this is a regional problem, but a problem that will | :09:21. | :09:21. | |
affect us. And I'm joined by the former Foreign | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown, Here in London are James Rubin, | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
he was chief spokesman for the State Department under | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman, she represents the Kurdistan | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
Regional government in the UK. Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, | :09:34. | :09:50. | |
we don't intervene in Syria, it's a shambles. What lessons should we | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
draw? That is a well framed question, because that is the | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
problem. Tony Blair is half right. Iraq, like Syria, would probably | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
have been a problem even without an intervention. But one wishes someone | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
would tell him to stay quiet during moments like this, because it does | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
drive a great surge of people in the other direction. The fact is, what | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
has been missing in western politics towards the Middle East throughout | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a drive to build an inclusive, | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
democratic centre which is secular and nonsectarian. That has been | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
missing amongst the threats of invasion Manon invasion, we have | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
just constantly neglected the diplomatic nation-building | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
dimensional this. I want to come onto what is happening on the | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
ground. I want to begin with what the Western response by me, and by | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
that we mean the United States, because of it doesn't do anything, | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
nobody will do anything. All of the signals I see coming out of the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
White is that Barack Obama has no appetite for intervention -- out of | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
the White House. I don't think he does have an appetite. He would be | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
very unlikely to do anything very large. He might feel pressured to | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
act because of the fact that this particular group, this Al-Qaeda | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
inspired group, fits into the strategy he has pursued in Yemen and | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use drone strikes against individual | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
terrorists. So it is possible that the threat of ISIS in the region and | :11:25. | :11:34. | |
the West in general might inspire him to act, but the idea he will do | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
enough, militarily, to transform Iraq from its current state of civil | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
War into something along the lines that Mark was talking about, | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
nation-building diplomacy, a big operation, I don't see President | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
Obama sees his historic mission as having got the United States as out | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
of it. Leave it to the Pacific, perhaps. What would the Kurds like | :12:00. | :12:07. | |
the West to do? First of all, in Kurdistan we face a huge | :12:08. | :12:09. | |
humanitarian crisis. We already have had bought a quarter of a million | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
Syrian refugees and we were struggling to cope with that. And | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
now we have at least double that number of refugees coming from | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
Mosul. First and foremost, we are calling on the international | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
community to help us with that. So we need humanitarian aid? Let's | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
assume we do that in some way, maybe not enough, but what else if | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
anything? I think it is an incumbent on the west and other powers to | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I think the Sunni Arab community, some | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
of whom have joined ISIS and may be supported the uprising, have | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
justified complaints against the federal government. But we need the | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
terrorists out of Iraq. That is first and foremost. And what the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
West can do is not necessarily intervene with boots on the ground, | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
but provide technical assistance, provide intelligence and help the | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
Iraqi army and air force to be more targeted. Can you defend yourselves? | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the disciplined troops. In this | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
situation, I hope they won't be abandoning their post, that is for | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
sure. It is a national cause fires. But we are not armed in the way that | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
the Iraqi army is -- cause for us. We are not armed in the way that | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
ISIS seems to be now they have seized some of the American kit. We | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
are not asking for weapons, but we ask for assistance for all of Iraq | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
to deal with the situation. Mark, this is not just an Iraqi problem. | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
This is a regional conflict, and from the Levant on the shores of the | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
Mediterranean, all the way through to the Gulf, the region is gripped | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
with what is essentially a Sunni and Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
the caveats that Mark bourbon made earlier, it's not quite that | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
straightforward, but the basic divide is exactly that -- Mark | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
Urban. People have been looking for this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
and have been taken by surprise although with hindsight I'm not sure | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
why, that it has begun in Iraq instead. At its most extreme, it | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
risks redrawing the 20th century boundaries of the region in a way | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
which would be highly unstable because it would pit a Shia Muslim | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc and would undo all of the sort of | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
social and economic advance of the last century, so the stakes are | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
suddenly very, very high indeed. Are we seeing the redrawing? The lines | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
were drawn secretly, not far from here, about a mile away, and may | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
have survived through thick and thin. They now look pretty fragile. | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
The map is being redrawn. I think it is true that there is a key factor | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
partition going on -- des facto. Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
of a hand to the promotion of the idea of self-determination, and in a | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
way, there is a self determination going on, particularly in the | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
Kurdish region, and perhaps they may end up the big winners in all of | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
this, because they have proceeded with a relatively moderate, | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
reconcilable government. The key thing that the Kurdish region has | :15:31. | :15:39. | |
done. They used to fight the two groups, and now they fight together. | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
What the Sunni Muslims have not done is figure out how to let politics | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
let the side things instead of guns. We need to look clearly and in Syria | :15:50. | :15:58. | |
and Iraq, if there is a Sunni extremist with ISIS that carves out | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
a place for itself, it will be the great irony of the modern era. | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
President Bush said he wanted to go into Iraq to fight terrorism. There | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
was no terrorist. There are now. If in Iraq and Syria together thereat a | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability that threatens the region, the | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
West, the world, we are all going to have to do something about it. | :16:29. | :16:47. | |
The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power. | :16:48. | :16:58. | |
You would not want it on your southern border. Absolutely, we | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
would not. The point we are all making indirectly is that things | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
have changed in Iraq and will never be the same again. Whether Iraq | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
completely disintegrates into three countries, or whether it stays | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
together as one country, but a countries, or whether it stays | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
together as one country, but loose federation, either way, Iraq has | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
changed. It will not go back to what it was. I hope it will change for | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
the better. I think we're at the make or break point for Iraq. Either | :17:27. | :17:34. | |
the political readers -- the political leaders of a right wake up | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
and smell the coffee and put aside their differences or there will be | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
problems. This provides that opportunity, in a very nasty way. If | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
we take it? Yes, and if not, I think this is the end of a rack as we know | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
it. If anything resembling a caliphate emerges, that is very | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
destabilising for the region itself. More so I would suggest than even | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. At some stage, you have | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
to assume that they will be coming for us. That is correct. This is | :18:12. | :18:25. | |
extremely dangerous. The only way forward is for these political | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
groups to talk to each other and find a compromise that allows the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected within or the | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected with an | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
autonomous federal-state. Any support for the government must be | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
premised on that. There is no military solution for this which is | :18:45. | :18:57. | |
in during -- there is no military solution for this. There must be | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
serious political negotiation, not with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
moderates, to form a more representative government. This is | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
the last chance for Iraq. I think we are all saying that that is going to | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
need to be some major western leadership to make some big | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
decisions here for the future of the region. I am concerned that after | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is quite world-weary, quite | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
world-weary. It does not seem to be giving leadership. Certainly we are | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
not seeing that in Europe. I am deeply concerned that we are not | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
going to take the leadership role that needs to be taken. These are | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
big issues. When Britain and France carved up the Middle East, they were | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
world powers, operating as global powers, and without that global | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
leadership by somebody, this is just going to get worse and worse. I | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
think we will leave it there, thank you very much. | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
The danger is that power will spread. This could grow in power. | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
It is just under 100 days until the referendum on Scottish independence. | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
So, for once, it'll be a long hot-summer | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
But the campaign isn't just getting heated. | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
In places it's also down-right nasty. When | :20:20. | :20:21. | |
Scotland's best-selling author announced she was giving | :20:22. | :20:23. | |
the unionist cause a million pounds this week, she received | :20:24. | :20:25. | |
Independence supporters online, so-called cybernats, | :20:26. | :20:33. | |
called JK Rowling a traitor and much worse, using a variety of | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
For its part, the Better Together campaign has been accused | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
Even Gordon Brown seems to think so, and this week he criticised | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
Conservative ministers for relying on "threats | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
With the Edinburgh Festival approaching, reports suggest even | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
comedians are now reluctant to engage in the subject because | :20:51. | :20:52. | |
I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
They're both in our Glasgow studio, and they're going head to head. | :21:00. | :21:14. | |
Blair Jenkins, let me come to you first. Why have you and the Better | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
Together campaign and Alex Salmond not done more to slap down the cyber | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
nationalists who are poisoning the debate? Good morning. I think both | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
sides tried to stop the tiny number of people on both sides who are | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
incapable of controlling themselves. We should not get this | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
out of proportion. We are having a fantastic, decent and democratic | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
debate. The people who probably total no more than 100 on both sides | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
who post offensive material or not to be allowed to deflect from that | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
fact. Of course there are nasty people on the Better Together side | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
as well, but are you saying there are as many of those as the cyber | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
nationalists? I have not done the Kent. Lots of people are certainly | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
posting nasty in defensive things to people in the yes campaigners well. | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
I imagine that people do what I do, and block them. You stop them from | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
sending anything further. There is a democratic and in gauging progress | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
going on throughout Scotland. It is characterised by good humour and | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
good debate. We should not get out of proportion and the activities of | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
the number of people. I want to get to Jackie Baillie. The debate is | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
actually pretty good-humoured and you should be doing more about the | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
nasties on your side as well? I think we have reached a new low this | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
week. Despite many people engaging in the politics of the decision and | :22:47. | :22:48. | |
the debate about that, whether we want to retain the best of both | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
worlds are separate from the United Kingdom, what we have seen is the | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
most abusive and vitriolic attack, particularly on women, JK Rowling | :23:00. | :23:07. | |
and a Labour supporter who dared to support the no campaign. When you | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
look at the number of people on social media, there are more from | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
the yes campaign than the no site. We should all be condemning attacks, | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
from whatever quarter they come. This seemed to be connected to the | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
office of the First Minister. What is the evidence for that? There was | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
an e-mail from one of the... I understand about that, but it did | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
not use vile words. It did not, but it repeated the same mistake as on | :23:39. | :23:47. | |
the website. We should be clear that we need to condemn these attacks, | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
but it is not just the water works, it is taking action. There was an | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
IpsosMORI poll this week which was varying testing. It showed the | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
population as a whole, farmer people think that Yes Scotland is running | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
an effective campaign as against Better Together. It is a undecided | :24:06. | :24:13. | |
voters think this by a majority of four 21. Some people are worried | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
about of the campaign. JK Rowling, Scotland's most successful author of | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
all time. She gives ?1 million to the Better Together campaign. She | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
then faces some of the most incredible abuse. I know what it is | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
like because I have had some myself. Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
of the words, it is Sunday morning. Why does Scottish Nationalists | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
culture have such a revolting fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
our views and it is unacceptable if people say offensive things about | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
her or anyone else who voices and opinion in this debate. Who are | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
obese people? When you look at the accounts of some of the people who | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
were posting these things about JK Rowling, they were using the same | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
sort of language about film stars and football stars. This was just | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
part of their language on Twitter. How often has Alex Salmond condemned | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
the cyber nationalists? Very often. Everyone in the campaign hands. By | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
common consent, Yes Scotland is running a thoroughly positive | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
campaign, much more positive than Better Together. Jackie Baillie, it | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
hardly helps matters when Alistair Darling, who runs your campaign, | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il and North Korea. That hardly | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
elevates the debate? I think we need to elevate the debate. There are | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
less than a hundred days to go. It is a massive decision. We need to | :25:51. | :25:59. | |
elevate the debate beyond attacks. I think there is much more that Yes | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
Scotland and the SNP can do. You have made that point. Why are you | :26:04. | :26:12. | |
running a campaign based on fear? The codename of your campaign is | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
even project fear. It is threats. You cannot have the pound, there | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
will be no shipbuilding. You will be flooded by immigrants. Why are you | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
so negative? I am not negative at all and neither is the campaign. The | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
campaign has asked questions and I think it is legitimate to ask | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
questions of the people proposing such a fundamental change. People | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
care about the economy, their jobs, their families. What would happen to | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
them if they leave the rest of the United Kingdom. I think it is | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
legitimate to ask questions. I refuse to be asked of | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
scaremongering. People deserve answers. The yes campaign is equally | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
guilty of some of the most outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
are both scaremongering. Blair Jenkins, the First Minister said of | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
the cyber nationalists, that they are just Daft folk, as if they were | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
mischievous little children. It is worse than that. When you look at | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
what they say, they are twisted, perhaps even evil minds. I would not | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
disagree with his comments, but they are directed at just a small number | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
of people. The story of this campaign is not the story of what | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
people are saying on Twitter. Around Scotland, lots of people are getting | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
engaged in debate to have been tuned out of the political process. Today, | :27:44. | :27:51. | |
we have 47% support for the yes campaign. The movement in the | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
campaign is towards yes. People know we have a better campaign, a vision | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
for Scotland. The latest poll of polls does not show that. Both | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
sides, you always take the opinion polls that show you in the best | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
light. All politicians do that. Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
just negative, it is patronising. You make dubious claims that Scots | :28:16. | :28:24. | |
would be ?1400 better off by staying in the union, and then you say that | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
the kids use the money to scoff 280 hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. | :28:32. | :28:33. | |
The fate of the nation is in your hands and that is the best you can | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
do? I think you will find that the campaign is something that we are | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
taking the message to people. Then why are you talking about hotdogs? I | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
do not. The campaign did. We are taking a positive message to people | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
across Scotland about the benefits of the United Kingdom. We believe we | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
are stronger and more secure and more stable, being part of that | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
family of nations that is the United Kingdom. At the same time, we have | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
the strange and power over things like education and transport. I | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
understand that. I am not doing the issues today, I am talking about the | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
tone of the campaign. I have one very important question. Who would | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
you supporting last night in the England-Italy match? I was not | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
watching the game. I would be delighted to see England do well in | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
this tournament. I have Argentina in the office sweepstake. I have to | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
keep some attention on them, but I would be delighted to seeing Clint | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
do well. That is because you think it will help your campaign. It will | :29:46. | :29:53. | |
annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie? I was supporting England. I was also | :29:54. | :29:54. | |
supporting Portugal. Now most of you probably missed last | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
night's football match between England and Italy because | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
you wanted to get an early night and England lost | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
despite a plucky effort, I'm told. But even Westminster is | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
in the grip of World Cup fever and with speculation | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
about the fitness of each political party's team we sent Adam out to | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
tackle some of the big players. Well, this is | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
the closest I'll get to Rio. This year everybody seems to have | :30:23. | :30:35. | |
gone a bit mad Belize, football stickers. Let's see who I will get. | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for these. George Osborne? That is | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
because we leapt on the bandwagon and made Alan political stickers. | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
They're hotter than a Brazilian barbecue. | :30:50. | :30:51. | |
And at Westminster they're turning into collector?s items. | :30:52. | :30:53. | |
Sunday politics political stickers. We have one of you, Norman. Would | :30:54. | :31:03. | |
you like it? Do you want to start collecting, Bob? Would you like a | :31:04. | :31:05. | |
packet? collecting, Bob? Would you like a | :31:06. | :31:05. | |
Thank you. No album, I'm afraid. collecting, Bob? Would you like a | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
Thank you. No album, I've got Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
two of the Prime Minister. -- next to Theresa. I am sure Michael has | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
Theresa in her stick around, and vice versa. | :31:26. | :31:27. | |
These Tory ones are proving very popular | :31:28. | :31:29. | |
since she fell out with him out how to handle extremism in schools. | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
And there's been open speculation about him taking on him in | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
Then there are rumours of a reshuffle of the whole Tory album. | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
Do you think there will be any swapping in the Tory leadership | :31:44. | :31:53. | |
soon? Who knows? David Cameron has also got to replace the EU | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is standing down. | :31:57. | :31:58. | |
Does he go with the favourite the former health secretary | :31:59. | :32:00. | |
Or the grassroots choice, Martin Callanan, the Tories old | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
Or does he rehabilitate Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
Do you fancy being European Commissioner? I would rather be | :32:08. | :32:22. | |
spending the money on the world's poor and spending it well. Glad to | :32:23. | :32:24. | |
hear it. Happy collecting. Right, there must be some Labour | :32:25. | :32:26. | |
stickers out there. You don't want to swap Ed Balls any | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
of the others? Can't I keep them all? This is almost the perfect | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
team. There have been grumblings | :32:38. | :32:38. | |
about the fitness of the Shadow And Ed Miliband's got a kicking | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
in Liverpool after posing I'm told grown men are meeting up | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
in pubs for sticker swaps - With Danny Finkelstein - | :32:46. | :32:56. | |
Tory peer and Times columnist, He would be the card I would not | :32:57. | :33:10. | |
want to trade. Do people want to trade him in? I don't think anybody | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
wants to trade him in at the moment. He is the best person to lead the | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
Labour party and will lead us into the next election. There's been a | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
lot about Michael Gove, and he's very combative. That's been a huge | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
strength as an education Secretary, despite the fact it's brought in | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
trouble. I would think the prime minister would tell him not to get | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
himself into peripheral battles at the moment but stick to what has | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
been successful. I haven't got Nick Clegg, but I got me. Controversy | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I need to give away me in return for | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
Nick Clegg. That would be far better. There you are. | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
Some local parties are holding meetings about his leadership, | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
but at one in Cambridge this week they voted to stick with him. | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
You have got a Euro Commissioner. Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed | :33:59. | :34:08. | |
Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do that? What is the significance of | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
that? Very significant. Happy collecting. | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
These beauties are popping up everywhere, but sadly they won't | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
Adam is still doing the samba around Westminster as I speak. | :34:20. | :34:29. | |
I'm joined by three journalists who've been | :34:30. | :34:31. | |
furiously swapping stickers throughout the show, they certainly | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
weren't allowed to stay up to watch the football, it's Nick Watt, | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
We will talk about Labour after the break, and I want to concentrate on | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
the Tories, but the moment, Nick, senior Tories are saying privately | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
that they might win next May. They are beginning to dream the dream. So | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
why are they doing all this jockeying? I think the jockeying for | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
the leadership is about a year old. What stoped it up was when Theresa | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
gave a speech to the conference, and people said she was doing it just in | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
case, when things were not looking too good. She is not on manoeuvres. | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
I think it was a policy row that drove the differences with Michael | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
Gove. But Michael Gove is on manoeuvres, and he is trying to | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
protect George Osborne from, he believes, a serious threat from | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa. It is quite self-indulgent when you | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
are a couple of points behind, the economy is going your way, to be | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
involved in this sort of stuff. Extraordinary. It shows the toxic | :35:40. | :35:50. | |
disease that gnaws at the entrails of the Tory party, and Cameron is | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
their great asset. He is more popular than the party, he bridges | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
the gap is, and he has an extraordinary dissemble and some | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
pretending to be this moderate while never the lens -- nevertheless | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
leading the most far right wing government we have had since the | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
war, and that has been a brilliant piece of political Charente and they | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
would be crazy to get rid of it -- political Charente. | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it -- | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
charades. Does this rumble on? I have an unfashionable view as there | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
aren't half as many leadership plots taking place in Westminster as we | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
assume, and the willingness to read strategic calculation into anything | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
that takes place comes from people watching I Claudius or house of | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
cards. That hasn't been off -- on for years. I needed a reference from | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
your time. I needed something. Maybe brief encounter? It's a stylised | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
view of how politics works, and so much more in life is about | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
randomness and mistakes. Boris Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
as George Osborne's man on earth, they are positioning themselves. -- | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
Janan wrote an eloquent comment this week about this, but there are | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
certain realities that. Michael Gove had that famous dinner with Rupert | :37:12. | :37:13. | |
Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he said that you must not make Boris | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
Johnson leader of the Conservative party, George Osborne is my man. | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
Theresa May set out her credo two years ago and people on her team | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
were saying that she was doing it just in case. People are out there | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
and are thinking of the future, but I do think Janan is right. In the | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
village, in the thick of it mindset, you can get a bit carried away and | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
you can be a bit in the famous. That is before your era. He died. What | :37:41. | :37:49. | |
did he mean by it. You can get a bit carried away by it. I will have | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
words with you during the break. It's just gone 11.35, you're | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :37:55. | :37:56. | |
in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
be talking about Ed Miliband's Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics | :38:00. | :38:13. | |
in Northern Ireland. The police say they'll take a harder | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
line on loyalist flags in one mixed area of Belfast but what are | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
the chances of brokering a lasting We're joined by three party leaders | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
to discuss this perennial problem. And with a draft document on racial | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
equality here raising possible We ask the former Home Secretary, | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
Alan Johnson, about how Westminster And here with their thoughts on that | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
and more are commentators Cathy It's been dubbed the most | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
significant development in years The police | :38:42. | :38:50. | |
in south Belfast have said they'll be treating the erection of any more | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
loyalist flags in one mixed area The SDLP has demanded | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
the policy be extended across Northern Ireland, while | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
loyalists call it an unworkable decision, and say action must now be | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
taken against Irish tricolours. Joining me now to discuss | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
the development are the Ulster Unionist leader, Mike Nesbitt, the | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
SDLP leader, Alasdair McDonnell, and Do you accept that it's unreasonable | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
for the Ormeau Road, which is 57% Catholic, to have 3 or 3 flags | :39:16. | :39:26. | |
on virtually every lamp post? What is unreasonable is that Sinn | :39:27. | :39:44. | |
Fein continues the decision. I think they need to describe what they mean | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
by Loyalist flacks. The coverage I've seen on BBC was. Flags and the | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
flag of the nation. I think we need to be careful about the tone. From | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
my point of view, until questions are answered, we have a lot of | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
questions to ask. What is unreasonable about the police | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
thinking very carefully about the flying of Loyalist flags, Ulster | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
flags, union flags in an area where people may be uncomfortable about | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
that? What is unreasonable is that Sinn Fein had a meeting on their | :40:20. | :40:29. | |
own, no other elected representatives is to any political | :40:30. | :40:37. | |
party is entitled to do that. They should have consulted people. | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
Considering people are going to get involved about discussions with | :40:42. | :40:43. | |
flags and everything else, we have one party running off now. My | :40:44. | :40:44. | |
problem with this is, date tricolour removed from his | :40:45. | :41:22. | |
office. The IRA put up thousands of flights. Let's not get into this | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
debate about how many flags there are. It doesn't matter if there is | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
one or 100. There are flags flying fair. Republicans will put flags up | :41:32. | :41:42. | |
in the next few months. What is your advice to loyalists watching this? | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
Is it put up more flags or think seriously about taking them down? My | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
advice to the police... What is your advice to the loyalists? Is this | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
part of the rule of law? You have made that point. I'm asking you a | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
question. I am responding to your question. What I'm saying to you is | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
that we already, in this society, live in a two tiered justice system | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
and I want to make sure that doesn't happen. That we ask you again. What | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
is your advice to loyalists about flags? But more up or taken down? | :42:15. | :42:23. | |
You can't answer that question. I will answer the question once get | :42:24. | :42:33. | |
answers from the PS of I. I am relieved and pleased that the police | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
have taken this small step because flags have been contentious and | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
annoying and irritating to ordinary people for a long time. People are | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
threatened and intimidated, and bullied in their own homes by folks | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
going around putting up flags. The flags issue needs to be dealt with. | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
As far as I'm concerned, the less flags the better. Sinn Fein did | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
everybody a by lobbying to get the statement on Thursday night. I think | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
it was the right thing to do and I think that quite simply, we have | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
been pressing the police for the last 15 years to take some action | :43:11. | :43:17. | |
around the illegal and inappropriate flying flags. This is no respect to | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
the union flag, or, the Irish tricolour where it has been flown in | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
reciprocal circumstances. Do you also have reservations? Sovereign | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
flags should be flown with respect at appropriate places. They should | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
not be used to poke people in the eye. They should not be used as an | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
instrument of sectarian division. I cringed and some of the | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
circumstances. My loyalties to the Irish tricolour. In some places, it | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
is used and abused. Flags should not be used to disturb people living in | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
their homes. Every year at this time, for the last 15 years, I have | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
had since agitation from people, many of them from a unionist | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
background, who just don't want flags flown in their face stop do | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
you have reservations about the flying of these many flags in this | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
area of south Belfast? The first thing is, I am clear that where we | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
are is a long way from where we need to be. I think I know the steps we | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
should take and the sequence they go in. We don't all agree on that. You | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
can look around and see if there is a law you can use to try and | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
restrict the flying flags in contested areas. That may change | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
behaviour. It will not address the mindset. It's a bit like saying we | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
empower the headmaster to issue six of the best. It might change a | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
child's behaviour but it will not change mindsets. It is mindset is we | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
need to get to. If loyalists are using the union flag as a | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
provocation, they are making a fundamental mistake, confusing | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
sovereignty with identity. I would say the flag is not about being | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
provocative. It is about offering a symbol of protection, about being | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
British, tolerance, of a pluralist, progressive society. Is that what | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
the display suggests to you? Is that about pluralism and tolerance, or | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
something else? Some people on the ground seemed to be considered. It | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
is pulling the union flag down into a debate about identity. The union | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
flag should fly well above that debate. Would you rather see these | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
flags removed? If there is a lesson of the last 18 months, if you bring | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
one union flag down, thousands more will go up. That sounds of the | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
justification. What I want to do is take a practical approach to this. | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
If you want to change behaviours, addressed the mindsets that inform | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
those behaviours. In the meantime, what do you do about it? What do you | :46:01. | :46:08. | |
say to loyalists? Should they put more flags up or should they bring | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
these flags down? Enough is enough. We need to have a debate on the | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
political leadership. That is why I have asked the party leaders to | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
decouple the issues and taken in a sequence, so we have some degree of | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
hope of success, in terms of parades, flags of the past. Billy | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
Hutchinson, Mike Nesbitt is clear. He answered the question which is | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
dead but more flags. US students the opportunity to do that and that is | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
your right. How do you take this debate forward from here? It is | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
clear listening to this debate that I'm not even clear who we are | :46:45. | :46:46. | |
talking about. The word loyalist have been used. It seems to be that | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
the loyalist Tim is used in a derogatory sense. I don't know what | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
your description is. I heard you on the radio on Friday saying you were | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
not a loyalist leader which is news to me. I am not a loyalist leader. | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
What the problem is, there are more loyalist leaders than there are | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
leaders of the Communist Party. What does it say in the title of the | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
Progressive Unionist party? Are you disassociating yourself? What I am | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
not to allow you to do is to say I am a loyalist and use it as a double | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
treat him. It is when it comes to be media. If I use it, is to rob a true | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
but if you use it it's not? What you have just done is you have said | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
loyalists have put these flags up. How sure are you that they were not | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
Unionists that personal? - that put them up. Stop trying to be clever. I | :47:48. | :47:57. | |
am not trying to be clever. It is a fair assumption that loyalists put | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
the flags up. Let's get the argument right. You saying it that it was | :48:02. | :48:09. | |
protestants? I do. Is this what we want to get into, a game? I have | :48:10. | :48:23. | |
said to you that I won't PSNI go to Republicans to tell them not to put | :48:24. | :48:31. | |
the tricolour is up. You have said that loyalists have been warned. I | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
would like to know who these loyalists are who have been warned. | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
I don't know who they are. You will have two ask the peace. - police. | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
The police said they spoke to individuals and they made it clear | :48:47. | :48:48. | |
that if there was a repeat performance, they would regard that | :48:49. | :48:56. | |
as a breach of the police. There is no mystery. The police monitor flags | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
going up and they have accompanied... Again, we go back to | :49:03. | :49:11. | |
the point. They have been present as the flags have been put up. They | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
have been there to ensure that there was no social unrest, let's say. | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
They were there. This has been a subject of contention with local | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
people. A final thought from you, Mike Nesbitt. It's dancing on the | :49:25. | :49:33. | |
head of a pin about who it was. Let me say, I need a political party, | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
not a religious organisation. I get what Billy is saying. Sometimes, | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
people who are from working-class areas think that people in | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
middle-class areas look at them as loyalists. I don't like that. Beyond | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
that, we are in a situation here which is potentially pretty | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
volatile. The police are in an extremely difficult position, where, | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
as always, they are going to have to make a decision between upholding | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
the letter of the law and maintaining the peace. It is | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
incumbent upon all political leaders to do their best to support the | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
police and we need to have conversations with the people | :50:15. | :50:16. | |
putting those flags up because I don't know whether they are using | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
them to say this is the sovereign State of Northern Ireland or whether | :50:21. | :50:23. | |
they are using them as a weapon. The latter is a mistake. We will leave | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
it there for now. It's here from our guest commentators. | :50:29. | :50:37. | |
Joining me is the University of Ulster academic, | :50:38. | :50:39. | |
Dr Cathy Gormley-Heenan, and the former Victims' | :50:40. | :50:41. | |
Where are we? We are getting somewhere in terms of establishing | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
the difference between principles and practice. I was heartened to | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
hear some of the language of those principles used by party leaders | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
today. There was discussion of consultation, tolerance and respect | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
and they are very important principles. What we are witnessing | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
is an undermining of those principles in practice. I go back to | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
the point about consultation. The question is this: Was the local | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
community consulted about whether they wanted to have flags in their | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
area corrected or not? As taxpayers in Belfast, is that something they | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
are entitled to, to have a say in how their community is represented? | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
The council will put up hanging baskets to make the area look nice | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
and so on. Why is the community not have a say in how their area is | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
represented? Patricia, do you think it matters? Maybe it is important | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
whether these flags were put up by loyalists, Unionists or | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
Protestants. It doesn't matter. What matters is what it was designed to | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
do is mark out territory which can intimidate people. What I am more | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
concerned about is the way the decision was made by the PSNI two | :51:57. | :52:05. | |
treaties future putting up - to treat these putting up flags as a... | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
Not without political leadership, without any sort of legislative | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
framework to work against, what is going to happen is they will be left | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
open to accusations of political policing. We are going to move back | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
in the political process if that happens. What we need from the | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
political parties and from the leadership is to move these | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
discussions on around flags, parades and dealing with the past. We | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
mustn't have that political vacuum, so that the PSNI is operating on a | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
legislative framework as they should do. Thanks to our pit leaders for | :52:42. | :52:43. | |
joining us this morning. Could the proposals be revived? I | :52:44. | :53:00. | |
have been saying for some time that I believe there is a window of | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
opportunity between the local and European elections and the start of | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
the summer. Flags still appeared to be a major hurdle. People have been | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
saying we don't want these flags up. Let this not turn into, they are | :53:20. | :53:30. | |
away every flag in the law. They are not neighbourly. Details of the | :53:31. | :53:44. | |
long-awaited policy... The first and deputy first ministers are invited | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
to the World Cup. Martin McGuinness finds out just how cut-throat show | :53:49. | :54:01. | |
business can be. The Guardian describes him as a rare | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
human among the aliens on planet Westminster. | :54:06. | :54:06. | |
Alan Johnson, the former Labour Home Secretary, | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
trade union leader, postman and now award-winning author, | :54:09. | :54:10. | |
is taking part in the Belfast Book Festival this weekend but first, | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
You continue as an active politician. But I suppose it is a | :54:14. | :54:29. | |
different kind of involvement to the involvement you had over a long | :54:30. | :54:30. | |
period of time. Your first ministerial post was | :54:31. | :54:32. | |
in 1999 at the DTI, just a year How much were you aware | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
of events here impacting Watching with appreciation for the | :54:36. | :54:56. | |
time being spent on it. John Major started the process. I was a union | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
leader over here. I was coming up here when postal workers were being | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
used for proxy bombings. 21 of our members were killed in the course of | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
action. I knew from our members over here just what a difficult situation | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
they were in and the real groundswell for peace and | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
politicians to dedicate more time to actual achieving that piece. The | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
Good Friday agreement and all the stuff that arises from it, and all | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
the problems that were there for the very brave people over here who were | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
trying to show that you can achieve things through politics, which is a | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
very important lesson I think for younger people in particular. We've | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
just witnessed another studio discussion in which political | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
leaders didn't agree. Does it surprise you? Is it disappoints you | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
that they are still talking about key outstanding issues which they | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
cannot get around? It doesn't surprise me it doesn't disappoint me | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
in the sense that you are having a discussion. I was walking around | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
Belfast just a day. I came over here throughout the late 70s and 80s. | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
This is a transformed society. But you're not going to get rid of all | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
those strong feelings about symbols like flags for instance very | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
quickly. There are lots of debates which go on elsewhere. They are | :56:23. | :56:33. | |
similar. Your former leader, Tony Blair, has been doing the rounds of | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
the television and radio studios today talking about to go to war | :56:38. | :56:45. | |
with Iraq, in the context of what has been happening with ISIS. He | :56:46. | :56:54. | |
says it was still the right decision. Do you still think it was | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
the right decision? Yes. It was the first time we had never been to war | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
with the decision of Parliament. There was a debate in Parliament in | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
2003. I voted in favour. I think the problem with looking with things | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
with hindsight and saying this wouldn't have happened if we hadn't | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
got into Iraq in 2003, is that you forget to things. Number one, you | :57:19. | :57:26. | |
had Saddam Hussein, who was the subject of eight Article seven | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
resolutions from United Nations. He committed genocide, not once but | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
twice, against his own people. He had invaded invading countries. The | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
two biggest crimes and international law. He had invaded invading | :57:38. | :57:39. | |
countries. The two biggest crimes and international law. We have been | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
the subject of years of UN resolutions that he ignored. We | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
cannot ignore the fact somewhat if we had let him get away after the | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
resolution? What would that have done to Saddam? He was a despot. The | :57:52. | :58:02. | |
beheaded trade unionist. There were no weapons of mass destruction. | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
Everyone thought there were mass dash there were weapons. It wasn't | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
the main reason. We went to war because he had ignored the UN | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
resolutions. It was a major part of the justification. We know he had | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
weapons of mass destruction. He had used them previously, twice. It | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
wasn't just as, France and Germany, who decided not to be part of the | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
invasion, thought he had weapons of mass destruction. You are here to | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
take part in the book Festival. Did you regret the fact you are now | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
writing your memoirs instead of being the leader of the party? No, I | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
don't regret. I don't regret anything whatsoever. I'm glad I | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
stood for deputy leader. Harriet Harman won it. I said at the time, I | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
was the best man in the race but there was a better woman, as is | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
often the case. I have loved the process of writing about my | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
childhood and trying to recreate my mother who died when I was very | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
young, and telling a story of two incredible women, my sister and | :59:08. | :59:09. | |
mother. That has been great. I might have been able to do that if I was | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
debited leader, who knows, but it's still to be involved in politics as | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
a backbencher and to be able to write and attend festivals exist. If | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
anyone thinks the political meeting is dead and finish, come to a book | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
Festival. They are alive and well. You are in for a roasting this | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
afternoon. Thanks for joining us. If you final thoughts. - a feud final | :59:34. | :59:43. | |
thoughts. A quick word on Iraq. Does it concern you, what is happening at | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
the moment? It is usually concerning and it is a legacy of imperial | :59:47. | :59:53. | |
interference. It's about going into Iraq, based on an erroneous decision | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
about weapons of mass destruction. The legacy of that has been to | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
galvanise and politicise the population of that country. I think | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
that is why we are seeing the grossing - growth in ISIS. To me | :00:08. | :00:17. | |
Blair is putting forward the line of denial is not just a river in Egypt. | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
It needs to be taken responsibility for, how the British and American | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
intervention has an influence. We had a leaked draft racial... A | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
regional immigration policy. Is that workable? Immigration policy is | :00:35. | :00:43. | |
reserved matter. It's not the responsibility of the devolved | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
administration. Scotland has talked that recently. There are examples in | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
Canada for example. The work ability of a differentiated immigration | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
policy I don't think that is at the top of the political agenda. | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
Interesting to hear your thoughts. Another busy programme. Goodbye. | :01:00. | :01:11. | |
There are big changes afoot in the EU following last month's | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
European elections, not least who'll get the top job | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
But behind the scenes the parties have | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
also been jockeying for position as they try to form the big groups that | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
And UKIP seems to have been struggling to keep its influence | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
Here's Adam to explain how it all works. | :01:28. | :01:36. | |
If you want your party to be a big cheese in the European Parliament, | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
you need to form a political group. By doing this, the party gets more | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
money, more positions on committees and even more speaking rights in the | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
chamber. But the parliament's rules are strict. And to form a group you | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
need a group of 25 MPs from at least seven different countries. For UKIP, | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
the number of MEPs will not be a problem because they already have 24 | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
of their own, but the different nationalities are more of a | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
challenge. Nigel Farage was not helped by the Tories stealing -- | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
stealing his former Danish and Finnish allies, and the pen pinching | :02:14. | :02:22. | |
his Italian charms. Nigel needs a new charm and fast. He has already | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
signed up Lithuania's order and justice, a free citizen from Prague, | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
and the Dutchman from the reformed political party. The big signing was | :02:33. | :02:40. | |
the 17 members of the Italian Beppe Griego's 5-star movement, but it | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
leaves UKIP short of two more international powers, and with the | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
clock ticking, it looks like his hopes resting on the Swedish | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
Democrats and the Polish new right Congress. They both make their | :02:52. | :02:52. | |
decisions next week. What is the latest? UKIP have enough | :02:53. | :03:04. | |
MEPs with their pals, but they need seven countries, as I understand it. | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
They are not there yet. They are wrapped five countries and need | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
another two. UKIP are being quite buoyant and say they will be meeting | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
MEPs from five countries next week and are pretty confident they will | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
get those countries, but as Adam was saying, the problem UKIP have had is | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
that the Conservatives have nicked two of the parties. That is why they | :03:25. | :03:33. | |
have been struggling, but they say they are confident they will do it. | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
Meanwhile, the Tories new best friends are the German Eurosceptic | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
party, which has put Mrs Merkel's nose out of joint, but we don't | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
quite know whether she really cares or not. I think Cameron has played | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
his hand badly since he committed to pulling out of the EBP. And he | :03:54. | :04:01. | |
should be in there with Angela Merkel and if he needs to make a | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
major renegotiation, he needs to have the Germans onside. Instead | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
there is a breakaway party and its like supporting UKIP. His party are | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
supporting her worst enemy. It certainly causing him a lot of | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
problems, and undermines his negotiating position, but isn't | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
there an honesty that the centre-right group is explicitly | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Federalist, and the Tories are anything but, so they came out, and | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
Labour are in the Socialist group, which is explicitly Federalist, and | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
they are not Federalist either. If you want support and influence in | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
Europe, you have to trade, and he hasn't done this well. The whole | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
business with who will be the next president, he needs Angela Merkel's | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
support. Without that, it won't happen. He should have been trading | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
behind-the-scenes, but he has exposed himself in public, and if he | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere. | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
head of the European commission, what chance do you have of | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs | :05:32. | :05:39. | |
dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm. | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe, | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this. | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain, | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
advisers or himself? In the end, himself. Nobody forced him to do it. | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
On this one, he called it wrong. It's a sign of the rather the bridal | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised. | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking | :08:59. | :09:00. | |
and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it. | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he | :09:17. | :09:17. | |
doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
carefully. That was the mistake. You get the impression from the picture | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen | :09:44. | :09:45. | |
question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband, all | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes, | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green. | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose. I | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said. | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on, | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush | :13:09. | :13:09. | |
you. We are running out of time. The Daily Politics will be back | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base | :13:22. | :13:52. | |
of medieval England. | :13:53. | :13:59. |