08/06/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


08/06/2014

The latest political news and debate, including an interview with former Labour cabinet minister Peter Hain. Shown earlier today on BBC One Northern Ireland.


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David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

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over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

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And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

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We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.

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Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

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David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

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But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

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Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

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And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

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a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

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With antiracism protesters on the streets of Belfast again, what can

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politicians do to combat Has Boris Johnson deserted

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suburbs and become a zone one man? And with me our panel

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of top political journalists, who are always squabbling among

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themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who will be

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tweeting throughout the programme This morning's political news is

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dominated by the very public fall-out of

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Home Secretary Theresa May and The high viz blue

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on blue spat between two senior Conservatives centred around the

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Government's approach to tackling The row burst into the open ahead

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of the publication tomorrow of investigations into the so-called

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Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham, where it is alleged several state

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schools have been covertly taken Mr Gove told The Times last week he

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was concerned that the Home Office was unwilling to tackle extremism

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at its roots. He said a robust response was

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needed to drain the swamp. In response,

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Mrs May's special advisor tweeted, "why is the Department for Education

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wanting to blame other people Lord knows what more they have

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overlooked on the subject of the An angry David Cameron ordered

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a speedy inquiry. Last night, Mr Gove apologised to

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the Prime Minister, while Ms May's Speaking

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on the BBC earlier this morning, this is what Foreign Secretary,

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William Hague, had to say. There's been a disciplinary matter

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within the Government, which the Prime Minister has dealt

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with in a very firm, clear way. There will be discipline

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in the Government. The main thing is the issue itself -

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tackling extremism in schools. The Government will be very clear,

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very robust about anything that's put children at risk -

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risk to their safety or learning. Let's look at the positive of this.

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Theresa May 's people of saying she has come off worse in theirs. Yelena

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Kushi is no more guilty than Michael Gove he was guilty of indiscretion.

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She is no more guilty. Even during 13 years of new Labour 's

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psychodrama, I cannot remember an act of hostility quite as naked as

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direct as publishing on a website and intergovernmental letter. It

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suggests quite a lot of conservatives do not think they will

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win next time. Why would there be a leadership spat going on like this

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unless they thought there was a vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa

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May is getting quite a bashing. In the Sunday Times, someone has

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reported she is the date from hell. She sidles up to people and is

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nakedly ambitious. I think that is interesting. On the whole, nobody

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will understand the finesse differences of opinion. It is not

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serious, it is not serious, it is tactical. It'll be puzzling for most

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people and will probably fizzle out. Has the Prime Minister slapped it

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down or will it rumble on? On the politics of it, it will not fizzle

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out. What you have is Theresa May is deadly serious about replacing David

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Cameron, not dislodging him but replacing him if there is a vacancy.

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Michael Gove is deadly serious in ensuring George Osborne succeeds

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David Cameron. It will be that ongoing political rivalry. What is

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really interesting about this is the Prime Minister is absolutely fed up

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with both of them. He is fed up with Michael Gove full-size gearing of

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message. He had the row with Nick Clegg and he had a row with Theresa

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May. He named Charles Barr and criticised him in a lunch with the

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times. White brother he is the Security adviser at the Home Office.

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-- he is the security advisor. He is fed up with Theresa May for mounting

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an unannounced leader bid. What separates Theresa May from Michael

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Gove on dealing with extremism? The view from Michael Gove is that it

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shows no interest in Islamic extremism until it manifests in

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violent form. Theresa May is criticised for rolling back the

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programme which the previous Labour government introduced to do with the

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previous Labour government introduced to do with the Home

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Office has been made by other people and made when the Home Office was

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not run by Theresa May but previous home secretaries, even dating back

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to the Conservative government in the 1990s. It is about the laxity of

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the Government. Michael Gove has used extraordinary inflammatory

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language talking about draining the swamp. I think Theresa May 's view

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is you can very easily inflamed those emotions and create many more

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extremists the process. Michael Gove would say that his approach is

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entirely consistent with the speech the Prime Minister made to the

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Munich Security conference in 2011 when the Prime Minister talked about

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warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

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is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

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Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

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Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

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their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

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in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

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infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

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resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

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to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

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There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

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four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

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that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

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for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

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stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

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like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

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Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

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leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

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overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

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want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

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themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

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makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

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be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

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curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

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education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

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segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

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segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.

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Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

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equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of

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gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

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tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

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do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

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ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

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tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

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think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

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inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

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be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

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sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

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as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

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Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

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were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

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were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

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academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

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Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

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standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

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get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

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to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

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which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

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fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

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desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

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increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

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Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

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gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

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since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

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note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

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head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

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what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

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fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

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schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

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mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

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for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

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dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

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schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

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Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

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multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

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education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this

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morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,

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the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.

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In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools

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and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed

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this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and

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this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you

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fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get

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together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There

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are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city

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council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning

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have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in

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schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have

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a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for

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four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to

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account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils

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in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young

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people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do

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you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that

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Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was

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building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We

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have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard

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Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate

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about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,

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the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do

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to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must

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with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on

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stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the

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most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -

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from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described

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Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the

:15:57.:16:03.

problems of the next five years'. But with the German Chancellor

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Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that

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Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7

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summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people

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running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change

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and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads

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of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what

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I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed

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in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering

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that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away

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from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.

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We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is

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a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.

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He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.

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And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin

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Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives

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and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.

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The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new

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Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out

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gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to

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have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a

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high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next

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three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the

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president of the European Council after the proposal of the European

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Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in

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the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr

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Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going

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to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us

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one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine

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Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have

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a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need

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radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave

:18:41.:18:45.

us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in

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public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks

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campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the

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European Commission. Elmar Brok, since the European voters have sent

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a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

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quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

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First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

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against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

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who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

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group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

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financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

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financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

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works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

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Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government. But

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we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of

:19:58.:20:01.

this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the

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winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs

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LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority

:20:10.:20:14.

in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It

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is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament

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has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by

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majority in the light of the European elections after

:20:33.:20:33.

consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a

:20:34.:20:38.

candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a

:20:39.:20:45.

majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the

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Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.

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I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European

:20:53.:20:57.

elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the

:20:58.:21:01.

elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats

:21:02.:21:05.

in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking

:21:06.:21:09.

part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the

:21:10.:21:12.

United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German

:21:13.:21:17.

socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a

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nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with

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hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a

:21:28.:21:31.

democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to

:21:32.:21:33.

take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if

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I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of

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the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to

:21:55.:22:04.

Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives

:22:05.:22:07.

have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they

:22:08.:22:11.

have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form

:22:12.:22:16.

of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr

:22:17.:22:22.

Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU

:22:23.:22:26.

exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we

:22:27.:22:31.

want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious

:22:32.:22:35.

reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to

:22:36.:22:40.

vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,

:22:41.:22:46.

somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We

:22:47.:22:52.

need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the

:22:53.:22:54.

European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of

:22:55.:22:57.

federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in

:22:58.:23:02.

Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to

:23:03.:23:07.

take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the

:23:08.:23:13.

publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.

:23:14.:23:19.

We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If

:23:20.:23:25.

enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in

:23:26.:23:29.

the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,

:23:30.:23:36.

would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected

:23:37.:23:41.

by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the

:23:42.:23:45.

European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted

:23:46.:23:48.

pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist

:23:49.:23:53.

thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe

:23:54.:24:04.

which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not

:24:05.:24:10.

want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state.

:24:11.:24:14.

This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better

:24:15.:24:18.

governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to

:24:19.:24:22.

become better, to change our programme in that question. That

:24:23.:24:27.

should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for

:24:28.:24:34.

that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to

:24:35.:24:37.

be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are

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matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent

:24:44.:24:48.

candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British

:24:49.:24:57.

commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election

:24:58.:25:00.

-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.

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Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European

:25:07.:25:09.

They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs

:25:10.:25:15.

and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.

:25:16.:25:19.

What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body

:25:20.:25:21.

which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission

:25:22.:25:24.

This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They

:25:25.:25:37.

didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes.

:25:38.:25:43.

They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once

:25:44.:25:47.

in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,

:25:48.:26:06.

drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they

:26:07.:26:14.

are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the

:26:15.:26:17.

party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and

:26:18.:26:23.

the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting

:26:24.:26:29.

such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election

:26:30.:26:32.

under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was

:26:33.:26:38.

invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.

:26:39.:26:45.

When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most

:26:46.:26:50.

seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated

:26:51.:26:52.

using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --

:26:53.:27:02.

first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and

:27:03.:27:07.

London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,

:27:08.:27:11.

if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant

:27:12.:27:15.

to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to

:27:16.:27:20.

UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would

:27:21.:27:27.

have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by

:27:28.:27:30.

mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to

:27:31.:27:38.

experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of

:27:39.:27:42.

1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This

:27:43.:27:48.

man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and

:27:49.:27:50.

polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat

:27:51.:27:57.

candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards

:27:58.:28:04.

realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little

:28:05.:28:08.

Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do --

:28:09.:28:15.

bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.

:28:16.:28:26.

Mr Sanders got some consolation. In 1998, laws came into rule on

:28:27.:28:30.

so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was

:28:31.:28:33.

established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh

:28:34.:28:36.

floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to

:28:37.:28:40.

voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the

:28:41.:28:43.

conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name

:28:44.:28:47.

of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those

:28:48.:28:53.

registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our

:28:54.:28:58.

opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on

:28:59.:29:00.

the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,

:29:01.:29:08.

were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need

:29:09.:29:13.

to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An

:29:14.:29:18.

independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved

:29:19.:29:21.

in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the

:29:22.:29:26.

description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word

:29:27.:29:32.

independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in

:29:33.:29:38.

1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again

:29:39.:29:41.

at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the

:29:42.:29:48.

major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking

:29:49.:29:49.

votes of them. Joining me now to discuss

:29:50.:29:58.

this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the

:29:59.:30:02.

South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is

:30:03.:30:05.

the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that

:30:06.:30:21.

were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to

:30:22.:30:26.

tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the

:30:27.:30:31.

breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats

:30:32.:30:38.

that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

:30:39.:30:46.

You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

:30:47.:30:49.

You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those

:30:50.:30:53.

with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there

:30:54.:30:59.

is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people

:31:00.:31:03.

who had voted at the top ballot papers, the amount of people

:31:04.:31:09.

bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I

:31:10.:31:15.

want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is

:31:16.:31:29.

said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange

:31:30.:31:36.

for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than

:31:37.:31:43.

me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally

:31:44.:31:50.

been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been

:31:51.:31:55.

voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected

:31:56.:31:59.

anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What

:32:00.:32:04.

would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for

:32:05.:32:12.

her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions

:32:13.:32:17.

to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat

:32:18.:32:23.

for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share

:32:24.:32:30.

of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If

:32:31.:32:34.

he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could

:32:35.:32:39.

stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said

:32:40.:32:43.

we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and

:32:44.:32:50.

that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the

:32:51.:32:53.

Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for

:32:54.:33:04.

UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think

:33:05.:33:19.

happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,

:33:20.:33:23.

the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really

:33:24.:33:27.

sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are

:33:28.:33:32.

the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is

:33:33.:33:37.

reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -

:33:38.:33:43.

a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal

:33:44.:33:50.

process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks

:33:51.:33:56.

that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important

:33:57.:34:01.

to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and

:34:02.:34:04.

the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an

:34:05.:34:08.

Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote

:34:09.:34:15.

and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the

:34:16.:34:21.

south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote

:34:22.:34:26.

share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats

:34:27.:34:30.

in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The

:34:31.:34:34.

Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have

:34:35.:34:38.

ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral

:34:39.:34:46.

Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections

:34:47.:34:50.

generally. If we poll around 7%, 8%, we should be looking at having 30,

:34:51.:34:54.

40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider

:34:55.:34:59.

proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept

:35:00.:35:03.

the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened

:35:04.:35:08.

is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the

:35:09.:35:15.

rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel

:35:16.:35:19.

Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,

:35:20.:35:24.

particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on

:35:25.:35:35.

Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None

:35:36.:35:39.

whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no

:35:40.:35:48.

redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything

:35:49.:35:53.

so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree

:35:54.:35:59.

with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown

:36:00.:36:07.

Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of

:36:08.:36:11.

accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We

:36:12.:36:18.

have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence

:36:19.:36:21.

which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it

:36:22.:36:29.

has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been

:36:30.:36:32.

massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything

:36:33.:36:38.

it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.

:36:39.:36:43.

Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral

:36:44.:36:48.

Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes

:36:49.:36:50.

decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is

:36:51.:36:55.

about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent

:36:56.:37:01.

people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?

:37:02.:37:06.

You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I

:37:07.:37:10.

do not think it should have a right to appeal.

:37:11.:37:12.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:13.:37:17.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism

:37:18.:37:34.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.

:37:35.:37:36.

After a stream of apologies, the heat has gone out

:37:37.:37:38.

but just how important an issue is racism for politicians?

:37:39.:37:43.

I'll be talking to the chair of the Community Relations Council

:37:44.:37:46.

and a former member of the Equality Commission to hear their thoughts.

:37:47.:37:49.

Plus, with a whole raft of new councillors voted into post,

:37:50.:37:53.

I'll be hearing from some of those new faces and asking them how ready

:37:54.:37:57.

And with their thoughts on all of that, PR expert Sheila Davidson

:37:58.:38:02.

Both Peter Robinson and Pastor McConnell have apologised

:38:03.:38:17.

taking some of the heat out of the political row on racism.

:38:18.:38:22.

Yesterday protesters took to the streets of Belfast

:38:23.:38:24.

for the second Saturday in a row, demanding an end to racist attacks

:38:25.:38:27.

and for Stormont to publish its Racial Equality Strategy.

:38:28.:38:31.

So where is the anti-racism document?

:38:32.:38:32.

Joining me is the chairman of the Community Relations Council,

:38:33.:38:39.

who's a former member of the Equality Commission.

:38:40.:38:47.

thank you for joining us. How damaging the finger last couple of

:38:48.:38:58.

weeks has been? Community relations have suffered. I think there is

:38:59.:39:05.

momentum around this community demonstrated in the rally yesterday

:39:06.:39:09.

to do some positive things around community relations, sectarianism is

:39:10.:39:18.

a -- sectarianism and racism. I think for the public record, we have

:39:19.:39:27.

seen constructive behaviour and a lesson for us all in many ways from

:39:28.:39:33.

the Islamic Centre in Belfast. A couple of things coming out of the

:39:34.:39:37.

rally yesterday, there was a view from wider civic society that an

:39:38.:39:42.

attack on anybody is an attack on us all, on our aspirations for Belfast

:39:43.:39:47.

and Northern Ireland to be a diverse society, and there was a view coming

:39:48.:39:53.

out of the rally yesterday, I have heard that we need a racial equality

:39:54.:39:57.

strategy. The next number of days and weeks, there needs to be a

:39:58.:40:02.

strong, robust and ambitious strategy that is properly resourced.

:40:03.:40:08.

Paul Yam, what do the people that you represents a about what has

:40:09.:40:18.

happened over the past fortnight? It is not surprising for them that it

:40:19.:40:24.

has happened. It is not great and reassuring that politicians did not

:40:25.:40:31.

unite in the first instance but seeing the Muslim community showing

:40:32.:40:35.

their true colours in terms of their belief about peace, it is excellent.

:40:36.:40:42.

I do work with the Muslim community as well and have contact with them.

:40:43.:40:50.

They have tried really hard in terms of working with the local community

:40:51.:40:57.

to have a mosque of a centre but they are disappointed with what has

:40:58.:41:00.

happened. Disappointed if politicians? Yes, I mean the bottom

:41:01.:41:12.

line is, for the minority community, we do not have a political party to

:41:13.:41:19.

look forward to, who else represents a minority community? It is

:41:20.:41:22.

important for the minority community to be represented, and for the

:41:23.:41:29.

politicians to represent everyone. Politicians would say that they try

:41:30.:41:32.

as best they can to represent everyone. You would not want one

:41:33.:41:37.

party the presenting ethnic minorities necessarily. Is there a

:41:38.:41:42.

way of representing minorities from different communities in this

:41:43.:41:47.

society, perhaps finding a political voice, and becoming more engaged in

:41:48.:41:52.

the political process, whether that is through the main parties some of

:41:53.:41:58.

the fringe parties? We have the all-party group for minorities. We

:41:59.:42:06.

would like to see all parties eagerly attend the meeting and be

:42:07.:42:10.

represented there. We do not have all sections of the party that

:42:11.:42:17.

attend it all the time. We want to see if different parties would reach

:42:18.:42:23.

out to the minorities, and let the minorities focus into politics as

:42:24.:42:28.

well. There must be disappointment that the racial equality strategy

:42:29.:42:31.

has been seven years in the writing and it has still not been published,

:42:32.:42:34.

even for consultation. What you could interpret that as indicating

:42:35.:42:40.

is that that subject is not a priority for local politicians. Is

:42:41.:42:44.

that how you see it? I suppose it is. Coming from 2010, you have got a

:42:45.:42:52.

four-year gap that is not happening. And only recently we have been

:42:53.:43:00.

working very hard on it. Hopefully it will go out for consultation. It

:43:01.:43:08.

will be very useful for all the communities to look at it and

:43:09.:43:13.

feedback and actually work together as a cohesive community and tackle

:43:14.:43:19.

racism, tackle community cohesion about integration. That is a

:43:20.:43:26.

positive interpretation of what the strategy could be, but is it

:43:27.:43:28.

acceptable that we have still not seen it? It is appalling that it has

:43:29.:43:34.

taken seven years to produce this racial equality strategy. It needs

:43:35.:43:37.

to be produced quickly, it needs to be robust and properly resourced. We

:43:38.:43:42.

need to hold a mirror up to ourselves and ask whether the fact

:43:43.:43:45.

that the best taken seven years is a reflection of the priority we need

:43:46.:43:48.

to give to tackling racism and sectarianism. Is that the conclusion

:43:49.:43:53.

you have reached, that it is not a sufficient matter of concern for

:43:54.:43:58.

politicians to get a piece of paper in the public domain for

:43:59.:44:03.

discussion? Never mind the reactions that would subsequently followed.

:44:04.:44:08.

They need to reflect whether they have put enough power behind it.

:44:09.:44:12.

Seven years is an appalling length of time to wait for that strategy.

:44:13.:44:21.

It needs to be robust and ambitious. Is it also possibly the case that

:44:22.:44:25.

people in your organisation, the Community Relations Council and the

:44:26.:44:28.

Equality Commission, and other people who have a public art form

:44:29.:44:31.

have let the politicians off the hook? There has been over many years

:44:32.:44:37.

and the last number of weeks especially. Many people in civic

:44:38.:44:41.

society said we needed to have this sort of strategy. If you look at the

:44:42.:44:45.

Community Relations Council from 16th of June, they support

:44:46.:44:50.

hundreds, dozens of projects throughout Northern Ireland, with

:44:51.:44:57.

events reflecting on the peace building and antiracism work that

:44:58.:45:01.

the council supports, and we hope that many people will support those

:45:02.:45:05.

events from 16th of June. That said, we have to acknowledge the

:45:06.:45:09.

contribution that people from minority ethnic and migrant workers

:45:10.:45:13.

make the Northern Ireland is huge, it is social, cultural and economic.

:45:14.:45:21.

The contribution that they make is absolutely massive. We need to

:45:22.:45:25.

recognise that. Politicians, from the top down, need to be more vocal

:45:26.:45:28.

in recognising that as well. Thank you both.

:45:29.:45:33.

Let's hear the thoughts of today's commentators,

:45:34.:45:37.

Gladys Ganiel and Sheila Davidson. Is this acceptable? This has been

:45:38.:45:47.

ongoing for a number of years. Whether it has happened in good time

:45:48.:45:51.

not as a matter for debate. It is all about cause and effect. What has

:45:52.:45:56.

upped the ante on this is not just what Pastor McConnell said, it was

:45:57.:46:01.

the actual physical attack on a young man in north Belfast that

:46:02.:46:04.

started to get people to understand what the consequence was, that kind

:46:05.:46:09.

of rhetoric happening in the public domain. And that is the kind of

:46:10.:46:13.

thing we need to keep focusing on. And that is why the reaction of the

:46:14.:46:18.

Muslim community has been so instructive to us all, because they

:46:19.:46:23.

have taken that attack on their own community and they have been

:46:24.:46:28.

incredibly generous and respect will -- respectful back into the amenity.

:46:29.:46:34.

There are -- community. But individual members of their

:46:35.:46:38.

community are not happy with the response that they have had. We

:46:39.:46:40.

cannot allow politicians and organisations that represent those

:46:41.:46:46.

people off the hook. None of us should get off the hook on this. We

:46:47.:46:50.

must understand that this affects ordinary people on the ground. They

:46:51.:46:59.

are hurt, and this is what we need to understand, the cause and effect

:47:00.:47:04.

of this. It is so important. It is important to say this is not just

:47:05.:47:08.

have vast two weeks. This has been coming down the road a long time. In

:47:09.:47:14.

2013 research showed there were more research Ashmeade racist attacks in

:47:15.:47:19.

Belfast than in 2003 in Ireland and Northern Ireland combined.

:47:20.:47:22.

Belfast than in 2003 in Ireland and seen an increase that was ignored

:47:23.:47:24.

until the last two weeks with the controversy with Pastor McConnell.

:47:25.:47:30.

We need to recognise that. And the last three or four years, there have

:47:31.:47:34.

been four could tickle reports about the level of prosecutions for hate

:47:35.:47:37.

crime. By the time these cases reach court, only about 15% are able to be

:47:38.:47:41.

prosecuted. In terms of a closely at how many cases get to

:47:42.:47:53.

court. Paul Yam, if you wanted to look at a positive I mention to this

:47:54.:47:54.

debate, you would say look at a positive I mention to this

:47:55.:47:56.

fast was a very support for -- in Belfast was a

:47:57.:48:04.

public support for -- in Belfast was a

:48:05.:48:09.

More people out on a wet Saturday afternoon than on the previous week.

:48:10.:48:13.

It is important for all the communities coming forward, to say

:48:14.:48:21.

that racism is wrong. I think by not saying anything, in a way, you are

:48:22.:48:26.

indirectly supporting the wrong, itself. If you go back and talk

:48:27.:48:36.

about hate crime, you talk about bullying in school,

:48:37.:48:42.

about hate crime, you talk about in school. In Northern Ireland there

:48:43.:48:46.

is no bullying policy in school. The bullying policy, lots of head

:48:47.:48:50.

teachers, they are not adequately able to deal with bullying in

:48:51.:48:58.

school. Bullying policy needs to be in place in all schools and teachers

:48:59.:49:05.

have to be trade -- trained for it. That is an interesting other

:49:06.:49:07.

dimensional to the discussion that you have raised. We will hear more

:49:08.:49:13.

from our guest commentators later in the programme.

:49:14.:49:16.

Thank you all. Now, let's pause for a moment

:49:17.:49:20.

and take a look back at the week in 60 seconds, with Stephen Walker.

:49:21.:49:24.

Peter Robinson went to Belfast Islamic Centre and showed that sorry

:49:25.:49:32.

is not a hard world at all. I apologised to them, you said in

:49:33.:49:36.

private, I say that I apologised face-to-face, personally,

:49:37.:49:39.

man-to-man, the way that it should be done. There was anger in the

:49:40.:49:45.

Stormont Chamber over his absence from the Chamber during a debate on

:49:46.:49:49.

racism. It is deeply regrettable that he is not here. There is an

:49:50.:49:52.

empty Chair there are, well the First Minister should be. The police

:49:53.:49:58.

on Bosman takes Matt I get to court over whims of obstruction was a

:49:59.:50:02.

former business said that the law is clear. -- Matt Badgett. Parliament

:50:03.:50:12.

made it will clear. It is explicit. And in the Assembly, one question

:50:13.:50:19.

was a cut above the rest. I thank the member for his question. I did

:50:20.:50:22.

not think he had much of an interest in hairdressers!

:50:23.:50:29.

The DUP's Adrian McQuillan taking Mark H Durkan's joke in good spirit.

:50:30.:50:32.

Now, the election to the new super councils two weeks ago

:50:33.:50:37.

ushered in a wave of young, eager faces to the political scene here.

:50:38.:50:40.

The newly-elected councillors will soon be cutting their teeth

:50:41.:50:43.

than those serving in local government in the past.

:50:44.:50:47.

But, just like comic book superheroes, with extra power

:50:48.:50:49.

comes extra responsibility. So how ready are they?

:50:50.:50:51.

Joining me now are Alex Redpath of the Ulster Unionists,

:50:52.:50:54.

the SDLP's Laura Devlin and Ross Brown from the Greens.

:50:55.:50:58.

Welcome to the programme. Are you well enough equipped to deal with

:50:59.:51:08.

the new powers on the super councils that will take up authority in ten

:51:09.:51:13.

months time? I believe so. I trained as an economist. That has given me a

:51:14.:51:18.

good background in terms of economic element issues that will be taken up

:51:19.:51:23.

by the councils. And also having an understanding of the principles of

:51:24.:51:28.

sustainability, incorporating that into the planning policy is going to

:51:29.:51:34.

be important as well. You might be confident for yourself, but do you

:51:35.:51:37.

think that other new councillors who will face the same challenges next

:51:38.:51:41.

spring will be equally well-qualified and prepared? I am

:51:42.:51:46.

willing to work with everybody on the council and share my expertise

:51:47.:51:49.

and experience and do my best to make sure that the council is an

:51:50.:51:52.

effective body. The councils have been given powers of community

:51:53.:51:57.

planning and it is important that we have the communities equipped to not

:51:58.:52:01.

just be asked of consultants in the planning process, but to be active

:52:02.:52:06.

participants. Even more importantly, we need to empower

:52:07.:52:14.

communities and make sure that they can become participants in the

:52:15.:52:19.

process. Are you as confident as Ross is? I come from a constituency

:52:20.:52:27.

background, 11 years experience working in constituency offices. I

:52:28.:52:30.

believe that will stand me in good stead. I think we have a good mix of

:52:31.:52:36.

people. We have a lot of new people, fresh blood, which is billion, but

:52:37.:52:40.

we have councillors who have significant experience. 40 years in

:52:41.:52:47.

local government. So, to take that experience, I think that it will be

:52:48.:52:54.

a good fit, moving forward. Alex, do you ever wake up in the middle of

:52:55.:52:58.

the night and think, what have I let myself in for? Occasionally. I have

:52:59.:53:09.

lived in Liz Burn my entire life. I am the governor of a local special

:53:10.:53:16.

school, I have experience, and I have the skill set, and I am

:53:17.:53:21.

confident for my colleagues and for the other councillors in the area.

:53:22.:53:27.

We are going to be receiving training. There are big challenges

:53:28.:53:31.

ahead. I am confident for myself and my party that we can grasp these

:53:32.:53:35.

challenges. There are big challenges, aren't there, on things

:53:36.:53:41.

like where the council will have its headquarters, you have got two big

:53:42.:53:49.

Unionist councils now merge, is that going to be a harmonious marriage?

:53:50.:53:53.

There are are issues like flags and emblems. Maybe they knew super

:53:54.:53:58.

councils could be caught on the hook of those issues before they make

:53:59.:54:03.

progress on the other big issues. These are potentially controversial

:54:04.:54:09.

issues. The other councillors have a diverse range of views. One of my

:54:10.:54:14.

colleagues represents the public side of the constituency as far away

:54:15.:54:20.

as Don Donald. We are going to be trying to build a sense of teamwork

:54:21.:54:24.

between the areas. To try and create a shared identity. We have alluded

:54:25.:54:30.

to controversial topics like flags and emblems. The best way to

:54:31.:54:33.

approach those issues is with charity and respect for your

:54:34.:54:37.

colleagues and try to come up with a collaborative approach. Do you think

:54:38.:54:44.

that it could nonetheless get caught on the hook of flags and emblems?

:54:45.:54:48.

That is where the flags protest was created. I agree with Alex, we

:54:49.:54:55.

should approach the matter with a degree of maturity. The issue of

:54:56.:55:02.

flags and emblems are symptomatic of deeper, wider issues in society and

:55:03.:55:05.

underlying social issues and issues of intergenerational poverty and

:55:06.:55:11.

education and health issues. We need to speak to people in the

:55:12.:55:14.

committee. These are issues that are important for them. I would hope to

:55:15.:55:18.

focus my time and agenda on making sure that people in society are not

:55:19.:55:24.

being left behind, because many people out there at the moment feel

:55:25.:55:27.

that the government is not delivering for them. That is where

:55:28.:55:32.

my focus will be. Flags might not be an issue in your community as in

:55:33.:55:40.

other areas but you have had the issue of the Raymond McCreesh Park.

:55:41.:55:45.

That is to be addressed by the new supercars all. Could there be a

:55:46.:55:49.

issues that will hold you back in the future? I think the key thing is

:55:50.:55:55.

for us to move forward and to ensure that what we're

:55:56.:55:58.

for us to move forward and to ensure the people of the constituency. We

:55:59.:55:59.

have a very good mix of the people of the constituency. We

:56:00.:56:00.

priority, pushing the people of the constituency. We

:56:01.:56:09.

are talking about flags and planning permission and housing benefit

:56:10.:56:12.

issues. Very real issues that affect people. Are they talking about the

:56:13.:56:19.

geographic nature of that new super council? It is a large council. Is

:56:20.:56:22.

it possible that people living on either end of it will feel

:56:23.:56:25.

disconnected from other people? We either end of it will feel

:56:26.:56:29.

are the third guest council in Northern Ireland, after Belfast

:56:30.:56:33.

are the third guest council in Derry. It is a vast area.

:56:34.:56:37.

are the third guest council in key things is to make sure that

:56:38.:56:40.

local people have access to local representatives, and that there is

:56:41.:56:44.

local access. That is doing representatives, and that there is

:56:45.:56:49.

big thing for the new council. -- going to be. It is the biggest of

:56:50.:56:54.

the new super councils. What do you think of that geographical issue?

:56:55.:57:00.

How big an issue will that have on people as they connect with their

:57:01.:57:05.

new political representatives? There will always be a trade-off. It is

:57:06.:57:09.

incumbent on us as representatives to connect the council to people and

:57:10.:57:14.

be active in the community. My council has a big geographical

:57:15.:57:18.

spread. And I am therefore all of the people of Lisburn and

:57:19.:57:31.

Castlereagh. Do you think that City Hall is ready for your brand of

:57:32.:57:35.

green politics? People are looking for something different, looking for

:57:36.:57:39.

change, and bringing forward the politics of green politics, social

:57:40.:57:43.

justice and sustainability. Interesting to hear your thoughts.

:57:44.:57:46.

We wish you well. Let's hear more from Sheila Davidson

:57:47.:57:54.

and Gladys Ganiel. There is lots of optimism around,

:57:55.:58:03.

but there are also challenges. I would like to commend these three

:58:04.:58:09.

for their optimism going bald. I think that they might be

:58:10.:58:12.

underestimating the teething problems. -- for the optimism going

:58:13.:58:22.

forward. I think this is all well and good, but that is probably not

:58:23.:58:29.

quite enough. What is needed is leadership that goes beyond the

:58:30.:58:33.

mutual talents and respect and shows some grace and discourse about the

:58:34.:58:37.

common good and is willing to take that extra step to demonstrate to

:58:38.:58:40.

people what it might actually look like, to go beyond mutual respect, I

:58:41.:58:49.

suppose, just a more gracious way of speaking and talking with each

:58:50.:58:55.

other. The first job of every politician is to get re-elected.

:58:56.:58:59.

There was always a honeymoon period when you have just been elected and

:59:00.:59:04.

it can be very gracious. The challenge for these young people,

:59:05.:59:08.

and I am pleased to hear such wonderful, articulate and thoughtful

:59:09.:59:12.

considerations in what the problems are, and I hope that will affect

:59:13.:59:19.

what the solutions are, and that is what we will all be looking for, for

:59:20.:59:22.

you to give us some leadership, and deliver on that.

:59:23.:59:38.

The old adage says that 'manners maketh the man' and while we might

:59:39.:59:41.

now live in a more informal world, minding your Ps and Qs are still

:59:42.:59:45.

important to some - particularly those who tread the corridors

:59:46.:59:47.

As we discovered, the former Police Ombudsman, Baroness O'Loan, was

:59:48.:59:51.

in no mood for Jeffrey Donaldson's more casual approach to etiquette

:59:52.:59:54.

Baroness O'Loan director Jeffrey Donaldson with a smile on her face.

:59:55.:00:02.

There is a tendency to put women down. I doubt he would have done

:00:03.:00:07.

that to a man. She was quite right, but again, very gracious in how she

:00:08.:00:15.

dealt with it. Have you had a lot of learning to do over here? I have

:00:16.:00:20.

done a little bit of learning, we all need to be careful.

:00:21.:00:24.

Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?

:00:25.:00:39.

Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make

:00:40.:00:48.

we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read

:00:49.:01:11.

the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read

:01:12.:01:14.

the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in

:01:15.:01:30.

your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not

:01:31.:01:37.

being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national

:01:38.:01:41.

holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off

:01:42.:01:44.

instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is

:01:45.:01:50.

going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to

:01:51.:01:59.

influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like

:02:00.:02:04.

the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society

:02:05.:02:10.

and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to

:02:11.:02:17.

Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such

:02:18.:02:23.

as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as

:02:24.:02:28.

guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit

:02:29.:02:31.

half of what men saying this means that women inherit

:02:32.:02:40.

and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get

:02:41.:02:41.

any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law

:02:42.:02:45.

Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is

:02:46.:02:52.

meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different

:02:53.:02:58.

situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my

:02:59.:03:02.

profession of you and planned infiltration? In my

:03:03.:03:05.

profession of you having spent 13 years on the leadership of an

:03:06.:03:08.

Islamist organisation, having been involved

:03:09.:03:21.

Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very

:03:22.:03:21.

Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to

:03:22.:03:21.

influence the students of this country with a medieval

:03:22.:03:26.

interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative

:03:27.:03:29.

view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within

:03:30.:03:34.

our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were

:03:35.:03:41.

explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican

:03:42.:03:47.

faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.

:03:48.:03:52.

Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a

:03:53.:03:57.

policy question. I am not generally in favour.

:03:58.:03:59.

policy question. I am not generally establishment. I am not a fan of

:04:00.:04:07.

faith schools. I do think the solution is to

:04:08.:04:11.

faith schools. I do think the these schools

:04:12.:04:15.

faith schools. I do think the communities and not being insular

:04:16.:04:19.

and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is

:04:20.:04:21.

coming important. The Ofsted report is

:04:22.:04:26.

had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a

:04:27.:04:32.

serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the

:04:33.:04:39.

segregation of children into intensely populated areas where

:04:40.:04:40.

everyone is Muslim intensely populated areas where

:04:41.:04:42.

have to have a system intensely populated areas where

:04:43.:04:46.

children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular

:04:47.:04:49.

school often happens, even with a secular

:04:50.:04:53.

Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that

:04:54.:04:54.

leaves the rest like-for-like schools and that

:04:55.:04:58.

to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite

:04:59.:05:03.

hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have

:05:04.:05:07.

hypocritical about the profound schools. You have Orthodox Jewish

:05:08.:05:10.

schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict

:05:11.:05:14.

Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get

:05:15.:05:19.

worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a

:05:20.:05:23.

problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state

:05:24.:05:27.

problem. You have to look at the should simply withdraw from the

:05:28.:05:29.

business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The

:05:30.:05:41.

business of faith education. Like overall government policy is to take

:05:42.:05:46.

power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some

:05:47.:05:51.

schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than

:05:52.:05:54.

incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of

:05:55.:05:58.

this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you

:05:59.:06:04.

devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and

:06:05.:06:07.

behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary

:06:08.:06:13.

for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views

:06:14.:06:16.

that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe

:06:17.:06:21.

would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how

:06:22.:06:24.

tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that

:06:25.:06:28.

view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do

:06:29.:06:36.

expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the

:06:37.:06:41.

taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,

:06:42.:06:46.

educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated

:06:47.:06:49.

equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at

:06:50.:06:53.

which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the former development Secretary,

:06:54.:06:57.

because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned

:06:58.:07:01.

about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.

:07:02.:07:06.

There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley

:07:07.:07:11.

Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating

:07:12.:07:15.

free schools and academies is undermined the work of local

:07:16.:07:18.

education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which

:07:19.:07:25.

are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of

:07:26.:07:32.

being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have

:07:33.:07:38.

the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary

:07:39.:07:42.

of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not

:07:43.:07:47.

that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the

:07:48.:07:50.

oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point. By

:07:51.:07:55.

tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you

:07:56.:08:02.

think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The

:08:03.:08:09.

story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report

:08:10.:08:13.

that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other

:08:14.:08:17.

report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in

:08:18.:08:21.

July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look

:08:22.:08:31.

at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even

:08:32.:08:36.

government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism

:08:37.:08:44.

became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed

:08:45.:08:49.

the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the

:08:50.:08:55.

argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They

:08:56.:09:01.

should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society. It

:09:02.:09:05.

was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a

:09:06.:09:14.

hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to

:09:15.:09:23.

resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just

:09:24.:09:36.

has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?

:09:37.:09:46.

You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping

:09:47.:09:50.

him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a

:09:51.:09:54.

massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal

:09:55.:09:58.

market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic

:09:59.:10:04.

decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he

:10:05.:10:10.

takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the

:10:11.:10:19.

beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British

:10:20.:10:21.

Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is

:10:22.:10:29.

reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.

:10:30.:10:36.

There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot

:10:37.:10:43.

of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from

:10:44.:10:49.

Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and

:10:50.:10:53.

drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could

:10:54.:10:57.

think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I

:10:58.:11:01.

remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when

:11:02.:11:04.

the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European

:11:05.:11:07.

constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the

:11:08.:11:13.

ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively

:11:14.:11:21.

rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You

:11:22.:11:25.

can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the

:11:26.:11:29.

people who have protested at the elections with the way the European

:11:30.:11:31.

Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What

:11:32.:11:54.

has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we

:11:55.:12:07.

go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink

:12:08.:12:11.

at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.

:12:12.:12:21.

Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define

:12:22.:12:25.

clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough

:12:26.:12:30.

for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the

:12:31.:12:33.

fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We

:12:34.:12:38.

need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,

:12:39.:12:44.

assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is

:12:45.:12:47.

what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to

:12:48.:12:55.

finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger

:12:56.:12:59.

people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually

:13:00.:13:04.

liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too

:13:05.:13:09.

late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the

:13:10.:13:16.

one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been

:13:17.:13:24.

doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight

:13:25.:13:28.

three general elections to the left of Labour

:13:29.:13:30.

three general elections to the left are in coalition with the Tories,

:13:31.:13:33.

you have got a problem. I are in coalition with the Tories,

:13:34.:13:52.

back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:53.:13:54.

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