08/06/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


The latest political news and debate, including an interview with former Labour cabinet minister Peter Hain. Shown earlier today on BBC One Northern Ireland.

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David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers


over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.


And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.


We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.


Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?


David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist


But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?


Here's to the quarter of a million votes.


And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with


a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.


With antiracism protesters on the streets of Belfast again, what can


politicians do to combat Has Boris Johnson deserted


suburbs and become a zone one man? And with me our panel


of top political journalists, who are always squabbling among


themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who will be


tweeting throughout the programme This morning's political news is


dominated by the very public fall-out of


Home Secretary Theresa May and The high viz blue


on blue spat between two senior Conservatives centred around the


Government's approach to tackling The row burst into the open ahead


of the publication tomorrow of investigations into the so-called


Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham, where it is alleged several state


schools have been covertly taken Mr Gove told The Times last week he


was concerned that the Home Office was unwilling to tackle extremism


at its roots. He said a robust response was


needed to drain the swamp. In response,


Mrs May's special advisor tweeted, "why is the Department for Education


wanting to blame other people Lord knows what more they have


overlooked on the subject of the An angry David Cameron ordered


a speedy inquiry. Last night, Mr Gove apologised to


the Prime Minister, while Ms May's Speaking


on the BBC earlier this morning, this is what Foreign Secretary,


William Hague, had to say. There's been a disciplinary matter


within the Government, which the Prime Minister has dealt


with in a very firm, clear way. There will be discipline


in the Government. The main thing is the issue itself -


tackling extremism in schools. The Government will be very clear,


very robust about anything that's put children at risk -


risk to their safety or learning. Let's look at the positive of this.


Theresa May 's people of saying she has come off worse in theirs. Yelena


Kushi is no more guilty than Michael Gove he was guilty of indiscretion.


She is no more guilty. Even during 13 years of new Labour 's


psychodrama, I cannot remember an act of hostility quite as naked as


direct as publishing on a website and intergovernmental letter. It


suggests quite a lot of conservatives do not think they will


win next time. Why would there be a leadership spat going on like this


unless they thought there was a vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa


May is getting quite a bashing. In the Sunday Times, someone has


reported she is the date from hell. She sidles up to people and is


nakedly ambitious. I think that is interesting. On the whole, nobody


will understand the finesse differences of opinion. It is not


serious, it is not serious, it is tactical. It'll be puzzling for most


people and will probably fizzle out. Has the Prime Minister slapped it


down or will it rumble on? On the politics of it, it will not fizzle


out. What you have is Theresa May is deadly serious about replacing David


Cameron, not dislodging him but replacing him if there is a vacancy.


Michael Gove is deadly serious in ensuring George Osborne succeeds


David Cameron. It will be that ongoing political rivalry. What is


really interesting about this is the Prime Minister is absolutely fed up


with both of them. He is fed up with Michael Gove full-size gearing of


message. He had the row with Nick Clegg and he had a row with Theresa


May. He named Charles Barr and criticised him in a lunch with the


times. White brother he is the Security adviser at the Home Office.


-- he is the security advisor. He is fed up with Theresa May for mounting


an unannounced leader bid. What separates Theresa May from Michael


Gove on dealing with extremism? The view from Michael Gove is that it


shows no interest in Islamic extremism until it manifests in


violent form. Theresa May is criticised for rolling back the


programme which the previous Labour government introduced to do with the


previous Labour government introduced to do with the Home


Office has been made by other people and made when the Home Office was


not run by Theresa May but previous home secretaries, even dating back


to the Conservative government in the 1990s. It is about the laxity of


the Government. Michael Gove has used extraordinary inflammatory


language talking about draining the swamp. I think Theresa May 's view


is you can very easily inflamed those emotions and create many more


extremists the process. Michael Gove would say that his approach is


entirely consistent with the speech the Prime Minister made to the


Munich Security conference in 2011 when the Prime Minister talked about


warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system


is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.


Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.


Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of


their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents


in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political


infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the


resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs


to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.


There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for


four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact


that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on


for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much


stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations


like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the


Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the


leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an


overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We


want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate


themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which


makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to


be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted


curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an


education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender


segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender


segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.


Where you have a state education system, which is about gender


equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of


gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be


tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We


do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years


ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like


tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do


think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to


inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to


be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy


sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning


as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of


Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools


were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They


were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an


academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within


Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school


standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we


get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking


to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme


which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and


fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a


desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an


increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr


Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for


gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in


since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We


note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected


head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and


what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about


fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of


schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You


mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence


for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group


dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about


schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in


Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of


multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic


education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this


morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,


the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.


In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools


and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed


this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and


this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you


fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get


together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There


are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city


council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning


have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in


schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have


a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for


four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to


account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils


in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young


people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do


you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that


Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was


building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We


have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard


Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate


about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,


the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do


to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must


with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on


stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the


most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -


from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described


Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the


problems of the next five years'. But with the German Chancellor


Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that


Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7


summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people


running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change


and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads


of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what


I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed


in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering


that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away


from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.


We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is


a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.


He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.


And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin


Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives


and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.


The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new


Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out


gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to


have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a


high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next


three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the


president of the European Council after the proposal of the European


Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in


the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr


Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going


to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us


one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine


Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have


a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need


radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave


us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in


public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks


campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the


European Commission. Elmar Brok, since the European voters have sent


a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status


quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?


First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks


against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man


who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro


group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the


financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible


financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who


works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in


Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government. But


we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of


this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the


winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs


LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority


in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It


is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament


has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by


majority in the light of the European elections after


consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a


candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a


majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the


Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.


I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European


elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the


elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats


in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking


part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the


United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German


socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a


nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with


hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a


democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to


take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if


I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of


the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to


Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives


have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they


have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form


of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr


Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU


exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we


want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious


reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to


vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,


somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We


need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the


European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of


federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in


Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to


take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the


publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.


We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If


enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in


the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,


would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected


by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the


European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted


pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist


thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe


which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not


want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state.


This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better


governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to


become better, to change our programme in that question. That


should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for


that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to


be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are


matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent


candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British


commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election


-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.


Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European


They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs


and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.


What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body


which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission


This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They


didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes.


They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once


in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,


drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they


are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the


party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and


the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting


such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election


under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was


invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.


When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most


seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated


using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --


first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and


London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,


if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant


to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to


UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would


have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by


mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to


experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of


1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This


man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and


polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat


candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards


realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little


Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do --


bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.


Mr Sanders got some consolation. In 1998, laws came into rule on


so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was


established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh


floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to


voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the


conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name


of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those


registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our


opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on


the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,


were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need


to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An


independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved


in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the


description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word


independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in


1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again


at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the


major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking


votes of them. Joining me now to discuss


this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the


South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is


the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that


were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to


tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the


breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats


that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.


You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.


You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those


with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there


is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people


who had voted at the top ballot papers, the amount of people


bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I


want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is


said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange


for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than


me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally


been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been


voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected


anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What


would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for


her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions


to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat


for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share


of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If


he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could


stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said


we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and


that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the


Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for


UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think


happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,


the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really


sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are


the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is


reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -


a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal


process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks


that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important


to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and


the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an


Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote


and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the


south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote


share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats


in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The


Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have


ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral


Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections


generally. If we poll around 7%, 8%, we should be looking at having 30,


40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider


proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept


the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened


is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the


rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel


Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,


particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on


Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None


whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no


redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything


so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree


with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown


Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of


accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We


have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence


which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it


has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been


massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything


it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.


Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral


Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes


decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is


about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent


people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?


You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I


do not think it should have a right to appeal.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism


Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.


After a stream of apologies, the heat has gone out


but just how important an issue is racism for politicians?


I'll be talking to the chair of the Community Relations Council


and a former member of the Equality Commission to hear their thoughts.


Plus, with a whole raft of new councillors voted into post,


I'll be hearing from some of those new faces and asking them how ready


And with their thoughts on all of that, PR expert Sheila Davidson


Both Peter Robinson and Pastor McConnell have apologised


taking some of the heat out of the political row on racism.


Yesterday protesters took to the streets of Belfast


for the second Saturday in a row, demanding an end to racist attacks


and for Stormont to publish its Racial Equality Strategy.


So where is the anti-racism document?


Joining me is the chairman of the Community Relations Council,


who's a former member of the Equality Commission.


thank you for joining us. How damaging the finger last couple of


weeks has been? Community relations have suffered. I think there is


momentum around this community demonstrated in the rally yesterday


to do some positive things around community relations, sectarianism is


a -- sectarianism and racism. I think for the public record, we have


seen constructive behaviour and a lesson for us all in many ways from


the Islamic Centre in Belfast. A couple of things coming out of the


rally yesterday, there was a view from wider civic society that an


attack on anybody is an attack on us all, on our aspirations for Belfast


and Northern Ireland to be a diverse society, and there was a view coming


out of the rally yesterday, I have heard that we need a racial equality


strategy. The next number of days and weeks, there needs to be a


strong, robust and ambitious strategy that is properly resourced.


Paul Yam, what do the people that you represents a about what has


happened over the past fortnight? It is not surprising for them that it


has happened. It is not great and reassuring that politicians did not


unite in the first instance but seeing the Muslim community showing


their true colours in terms of their belief about peace, it is excellent.


I do work with the Muslim community as well and have contact with them.


They have tried really hard in terms of working with the local community


to have a mosque of a centre but they are disappointed with what has


happened. Disappointed if politicians? Yes, I mean the bottom


line is, for the minority community, we do not have a political party to


look forward to, who else represents a minority community? It is


important for the minority community to be represented, and for the


politicians to represent everyone. Politicians would say that they try


as best they can to represent everyone. You would not want one


party the presenting ethnic minorities necessarily. Is there a


way of representing minorities from different communities in this


society, perhaps finding a political voice, and becoming more engaged in


the political process, whether that is through the main parties some of


the fringe parties? We have the all-party group for minorities. We


would like to see all parties eagerly attend the meeting and be


represented there. We do not have all sections of the party that


attend it all the time. We want to see if different parties would reach


out to the minorities, and let the minorities focus into politics as


well. There must be disappointment that the racial equality strategy


has been seven years in the writing and it has still not been published,


even for consultation. What you could interpret that as indicating


is that that subject is not a priority for local politicians. Is


that how you see it? I suppose it is. Coming from 2010, you have got a


four-year gap that is not happening. And only recently we have been


working very hard on it. Hopefully it will go out for consultation. It


will be very useful for all the communities to look at it and


feedback and actually work together as a cohesive community and tackle


racism, tackle community cohesion about integration. That is a


positive interpretation of what the strategy could be, but is it


acceptable that we have still not seen it? It is appalling that it has


taken seven years to produce this racial equality strategy. It needs


to be produced quickly, it needs to be robust and properly resourced. We


need to hold a mirror up to ourselves and ask whether the fact


that the best taken seven years is a reflection of the priority we need


to give to tackling racism and sectarianism. Is that the conclusion


you have reached, that it is not a sufficient matter of concern for


politicians to get a piece of paper in the public domain for


discussion? Never mind the reactions that would subsequently followed.


They need to reflect whether they have put enough power behind it.


Seven years is an appalling length of time to wait for that strategy.


It needs to be robust and ambitious. Is it also possibly the case that


people in your organisation, the Community Relations Council and the


Equality Commission, and other people who have a public art form


have let the politicians off the hook? There has been over many years


and the last number of weeks especially. Many people in civic


society said we needed to have this sort of strategy. If you look at the


Community Relations Council from 16th of June, they support


hundreds, dozens of projects throughout Northern Ireland, with


events reflecting on the peace building and antiracism work that


the council supports, and we hope that many people will support those


events from 16th of June. That said, we have to acknowledge the


contribution that people from minority ethnic and migrant workers


make the Northern Ireland is huge, it is social, cultural and economic.


The contribution that they make is absolutely massive. We need to


recognise that. Politicians, from the top down, need to be more vocal


in recognising that as well. Thank you both.


Let's hear the thoughts of today's commentators,


Gladys Ganiel and Sheila Davidson. Is this acceptable? This has been


ongoing for a number of years. Whether it has happened in good time


not as a matter for debate. It is all about cause and effect. What has


upped the ante on this is not just what Pastor McConnell said, it was


the actual physical attack on a young man in north Belfast that


started to get people to understand what the consequence was, that kind


of rhetoric happening in the public domain. And that is the kind of


thing we need to keep focusing on. And that is why the reaction of the


Muslim community has been so instructive to us all, because they


have taken that attack on their own community and they have been


incredibly generous and respect will -- respectful back into the amenity.


There are -- community. But individual members of their


community are not happy with the response that they have had. We


cannot allow politicians and organisations that represent those


people off the hook. None of us should get off the hook on this. We


must understand that this affects ordinary people on the ground. They


are hurt, and this is what we need to understand, the cause and effect


of this. It is so important. It is important to say this is not just


have vast two weeks. This has been coming down the road a long time. In


2013 research showed there were more research Ashmeade racist attacks in


Belfast than in 2003 in Ireland and Northern Ireland combined.


Belfast than in 2003 in Ireland and seen an increase that was ignored


until the last two weeks with the controversy with Pastor McConnell.


We need to recognise that. And the last three or four years, there have


been four could tickle reports about the level of prosecutions for hate


crime. By the time these cases reach court, only about 15% are able to be


prosecuted. In terms of a closely at how many cases get to


court. Paul Yam, if you wanted to look at a positive I mention to this


debate, you would say look at a positive I mention to this


fast was a very support for -- in Belfast was a


public support for -- in Belfast was a


More people out on a wet Saturday afternoon than on the previous week.


It is important for all the communities coming forward, to say


that racism is wrong. I think by not saying anything, in a way, you are


indirectly supporting the wrong, itself. If you go back and talk


about hate crime, you talk about bullying in school,


about hate crime, you talk about in school. In Northern Ireland there


is no bullying policy in school. The bullying policy, lots of head


teachers, they are not adequately able to deal with bullying in


school. Bullying policy needs to be in place in all schools and teachers


have to be trade -- trained for it. That is an interesting other


dimensional to the discussion that you have raised. We will hear more


from our guest commentators later in the programme.


Thank you all. Now, let's pause for a moment


and take a look back at the week in 60 seconds, with Stephen Walker.


Peter Robinson went to Belfast Islamic Centre and showed that sorry


is not a hard world at all. I apologised to them, you said in


private, I say that I apologised face-to-face, personally,


man-to-man, the way that it should be done. There was anger in the


Stormont Chamber over his absence from the Chamber during a debate on


racism. It is deeply regrettable that he is not here. There is an


empty Chair there are, well the First Minister should be. The police


on Bosman takes Matt I get to court over whims of obstruction was a


former business said that the law is clear. -- Matt Badgett. Parliament


made it will clear. It is explicit. And in the Assembly, one question


was a cut above the rest. I thank the member for his question. I did


not think he had much of an interest in hairdressers!


The DUP's Adrian McQuillan taking Mark H Durkan's joke in good spirit.


Now, the election to the new super councils two weeks ago


ushered in a wave of young, eager faces to the political scene here.


The newly-elected councillors will soon be cutting their teeth


than those serving in local government in the past.


But, just like comic book superheroes, with extra power


comes extra responsibility. So how ready are they?


Joining me now are Alex Redpath of the Ulster Unionists,


the SDLP's Laura Devlin and Ross Brown from the Greens.


Welcome to the programme. Are you well enough equipped to deal with


the new powers on the super councils that will take up authority in ten


months time? I believe so. I trained as an economist. That has given me a


good background in terms of economic element issues that will be taken up


by the councils. And also having an understanding of the principles of


sustainability, incorporating that into the planning policy is going to


be important as well. You might be confident for yourself, but do you


think that other new councillors who will face the same challenges next


spring will be equally well-qualified and prepared? I am


willing to work with everybody on the council and share my expertise


and experience and do my best to make sure that the council is an


effective body. The councils have been given powers of community


planning and it is important that we have the communities equipped to not


just be asked of consultants in the planning process, but to be active


participants. Even more importantly, we need to empower


communities and make sure that they can become participants in the


process. Are you as confident as Ross is? I come from a constituency


background, 11 years experience working in constituency offices. I


believe that will stand me in good stead. I think we have a good mix of


people. We have a lot of new people, fresh blood, which is billion, but


we have councillors who have significant experience. 40 years in


local government. So, to take that experience, I think that it will be


a good fit, moving forward. Alex, do you ever wake up in the middle of


the night and think, what have I let myself in for? Occasionally. I have


lived in Liz Burn my entire life. I am the governor of a local special


school, I have experience, and I have the skill set, and I am


confident for my colleagues and for the other councillors in the area.


We are going to be receiving training. There are big challenges


ahead. I am confident for myself and my party that we can grasp these


challenges. There are big challenges, aren't there, on things


like where the council will have its headquarters, you have got two big


Unionist councils now merge, is that going to be a harmonious marriage?


There are are issues like flags and emblems. Maybe they knew super


councils could be caught on the hook of those issues before they make


progress on the other big issues. These are potentially controversial


issues. The other councillors have a diverse range of views. One of my


colleagues represents the public side of the constituency as far away


as Don Donald. We are going to be trying to build a sense of teamwork


between the areas. To try and create a shared identity. We have alluded


to controversial topics like flags and emblems. The best way to


approach those issues is with charity and respect for your


colleagues and try to come up with a collaborative approach. Do you think


that it could nonetheless get caught on the hook of flags and emblems?


That is where the flags protest was created. I agree with Alex, we


should approach the matter with a degree of maturity. The issue of


flags and emblems are symptomatic of deeper, wider issues in society and


underlying social issues and issues of intergenerational poverty and


education and health issues. We need to speak to people in the


committee. These are issues that are important for them. I would hope to


focus my time and agenda on making sure that people in society are not


being left behind, because many people out there at the moment feel


that the government is not delivering for them. That is where


my focus will be. Flags might not be an issue in your community as in


other areas but you have had the issue of the Raymond McCreesh Park.


That is to be addressed by the new supercars all. Could there be a


issues that will hold you back in the future? I think the key thing is


for us to move forward and to ensure that what we're


for us to move forward and to ensure the people of the constituency. We


have a very good mix of the people of the constituency. We


priority, pushing the people of the constituency. We


are talking about flags and planning permission and housing benefit


issues. Very real issues that affect people. Are they talking about the


geographic nature of that new super council? It is a large council. Is


it possible that people living on either end of it will feel


disconnected from other people? We either end of it will feel


are the third guest council in Northern Ireland, after Belfast


are the third guest council in Derry. It is a vast area.


are the third guest council in key things is to make sure that


local people have access to local representatives, and that there is


local access. That is doing representatives, and that there is


big thing for the new council. -- going to be. It is the biggest of


the new super councils. What do you think of that geographical issue?


How big an issue will that have on people as they connect with their


new political representatives? There will always be a trade-off. It is


incumbent on us as representatives to connect the council to people and


be active in the community. My council has a big geographical


spread. And I am therefore all of the people of Lisburn and


Castlereagh. Do you think that City Hall is ready for your brand of


green politics? People are looking for something different, looking for


change, and bringing forward the politics of green politics, social


justice and sustainability. Interesting to hear your thoughts.


We wish you well. Let's hear more from Sheila Davidson


and Gladys Ganiel. There is lots of optimism around,


but there are also challenges. I would like to commend these three


for their optimism going bald. I think that they might be


underestimating the teething problems. -- for the optimism going


forward. I think this is all well and good, but that is probably not


quite enough. What is needed is leadership that goes beyond the


mutual talents and respect and shows some grace and discourse about the


common good and is willing to take that extra step to demonstrate to


people what it might actually look like, to go beyond mutual respect, I


suppose, just a more gracious way of speaking and talking with each


other. The first job of every politician is to get re-elected.


There was always a honeymoon period when you have just been elected and


it can be very gracious. The challenge for these young people,


and I am pleased to hear such wonderful, articulate and thoughtful


considerations in what the problems are, and I hope that will affect


what the solutions are, and that is what we will all be looking for, for


you to give us some leadership, and deliver on that.


The old adage says that 'manners maketh the man' and while we might


now live in a more informal world, minding your Ps and Qs are still


important to some - particularly those who tread the corridors


As we discovered, the former Police Ombudsman, Baroness O'Loan, was


in no mood for Jeffrey Donaldson's more casual approach to etiquette


Baroness O'Loan director Jeffrey Donaldson with a smile on her face.


There is a tendency to put women down. I doubt he would have done


that to a man. She was quite right, but again, very gracious in how she


dealt with it. Have you had a lot of learning to do over here? I have


done a little bit of learning, we all need to be careful.


Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?


Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make


we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read


the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read


the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in


your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not


being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national


holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off


instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is


going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to


influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like


the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society


and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to


Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such


as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as


guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit


half of what men saying this means that women inherit


and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get


any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law


Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is


meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different


situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my


profession of you and planned infiltration? In my


profession of you having spent 13 years on the leadership of an


Islamist organisation, having been involved


Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very


Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to


influence the students of this country with a medieval


interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative


view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within


our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were


explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican


faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.


Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a


policy question. I am not generally in favour.


policy question. I am not generally establishment. I am not a fan of


faith schools. I do think the solution is to


faith schools. I do think the these schools


faith schools. I do think the communities and not being insular


and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is


coming important. The Ofsted report is


had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a


serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the


segregation of children into intensely populated areas where


everyone is Muslim intensely populated areas where


have to have a system intensely populated areas where


children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular


school often happens, even with a secular


Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that


leaves the rest like-for-like schools and that


to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite


hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have


hypocritical about the profound schools. You have Orthodox Jewish


schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict


Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get


worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a


problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state


problem. You have to look at the should simply withdraw from the


business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The


business of faith education. Like overall government policy is to take


power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some


schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than


incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of


this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you


devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and


behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary


for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views


that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe


would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how


tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that


view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do


expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the


taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,


educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated


equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at


which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the former development Secretary,


because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned


about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.


There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley


Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating


free schools and academies is undermined the work of local


education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which


are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of


being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have


the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary


of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not


that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the


oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point. By


tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you


think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The


story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report


that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other


report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in


July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look


at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even


government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism


became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed


the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the


argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They


should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society. It


was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a


hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to


resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just


has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?


You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping


him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a


massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal


market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic


decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he


takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the


beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British


Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is


reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.


There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot


of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from


Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and


drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could


think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I


remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when


the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European


constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the


ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively


rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You


can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the


people who have protested at the elections with the way the European


Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What


has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we


go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink


at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.


Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define


clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough


for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the


fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We


need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,


assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is


what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to


finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger


people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually


liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too


late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the


one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been


doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight


three general elections to the left of Labour


three general elections to the left are in coalition with the Tories,


you have got a problem. I are in coalition with the Tories,


back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.


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