08/06/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

With antiracism protesters on the streets of Belfast again, what can

politicians do to combat Has Boris Johnson deserted

suburbs and become a zone one man? And with me our panel

of top political journalists, who are always squabbling among

themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who will be

tweeting throughout the programme This morning's political news is

dominated by the very public fall-out of

Home Secretary Theresa May and The high viz blue

on blue spat between two senior Conservatives centred around the

Government's approach to tackling The row burst into the open ahead

of the publication tomorrow of investigations into the so-called

Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham, where it is alleged several state

schools have been covertly taken Mr Gove told The Times last week he

was concerned that the Home Office was unwilling to tackle extremism

at its roots. He said a robust response was

needed to drain the swamp. In response,

Mrs May's special advisor tweeted, "why is the Department for Education

wanting to blame other people Lord knows what more they have

overlooked on the subject of the An angry David Cameron ordered

a speedy inquiry. Last night, Mr Gove apologised to

the Prime Minister, while Ms May's Speaking

on the BBC earlier this morning, this is what Foreign Secretary,

William Hague, had to say. There's been a disciplinary matter

within the Government, which the Prime Minister has dealt

with in a very firm, clear way. There will be discipline

in the Government. The main thing is the issue itself -

tackling extremism in schools. The Government will be very clear,

very robust about anything that's put children at risk -

risk to their safety or learning. Let's look at the positive of this.

Theresa May 's people of saying she has come off worse in theirs. Yelena

Kushi is no more guilty than Michael Gove he was guilty of indiscretion.

She is no more guilty. Even during 13 years of new Labour 's

psychodrama, I cannot remember an act of hostility quite as naked as

direct as publishing on a website and intergovernmental letter. It

suggests quite a lot of conservatives do not think they will

win next time. Why would there be a leadership spat going on like this

unless they thought there was a vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa

May is getting quite a bashing. In the Sunday Times, someone has

reported she is the date from hell. She sidles up to people and is

nakedly ambitious. I think that is interesting. On the whole, nobody

will understand the finesse differences of opinion. It is not

serious, it is not serious, it is tactical. It'll be puzzling for most

people and will probably fizzle out. Has the Prime Minister slapped it

down or will it rumble on? On the politics of it, it will not fizzle

out. What you have is Theresa May is deadly serious about replacing David

Cameron, not dislodging him but replacing him if there is a vacancy.

Michael Gove is deadly serious in ensuring George Osborne succeeds

David Cameron. It will be that ongoing political rivalry. What is

really interesting about this is the Prime Minister is absolutely fed up

with both of them. He is fed up with Michael Gove full-size gearing of

message. He had the row with Nick Clegg and he had a row with Theresa

May. He named Charles Barr and criticised him in a lunch with the

times. White brother he is the Security adviser at the Home Office.

-- he is the security advisor. He is fed up with Theresa May for mounting

an unannounced leader bid. What separates Theresa May from Michael

Gove on dealing with extremism? The view from Michael Gove is that it

shows no interest in Islamic extremism until it manifests in

violent form. Theresa May is criticised for rolling back the

programme which the previous Labour government introduced to do with the

previous Labour government introduced to do with the Home

Office has been made by other people and made when the Home Office was

not run by Theresa May but previous home secretaries, even dating back

to the Conservative government in the 1990s. It is about the laxity of

the Government. Michael Gove has used extraordinary inflammatory

language talking about draining the swamp. I think Theresa May 's view

is you can very easily inflamed those emotions and create many more

extremists the process. Michael Gove would say that his approach is

entirely consistent with the speech the Prime Minister made to the

Munich Security conference in 2011 when the Prime Minister talked about

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of

gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this

morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,

the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.

In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools

and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed

this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and

this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you

fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get

together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There

are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city

council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning

have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in

schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have

a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for

four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to

account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils

in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young

people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do

you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that

Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was

building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We

have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard

Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate

about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,

the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do

to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must

with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on

stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the

most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -

from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described

Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the

problems of the next five years'. But with the German Chancellor

Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that

Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7

summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people

running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change

and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads

of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what

I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed

in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering

that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away

from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.

We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is

a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.

He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.

And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin

Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives

and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.

The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new

Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out

gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to

have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a

high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next

three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the

president of the European Council after the proposal of the European

Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in

the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr

Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going

to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us

one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine

Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have

a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need

radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave

us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in

public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks

campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the

European Commission. Elmar Brok, since the European voters have sent

a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government. But

we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of

this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the

winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs

LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority

in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It

is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament

has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by

majority in the light of the European elections after

consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a

candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a

majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the

Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.

I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European

elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the

elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats

in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking

part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the

United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German

socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a

nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with

hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a

democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to

take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if

I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of

the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to

Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives

have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they

have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form

of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr

Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU

exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we

want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious

reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to

vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,

somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We

need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the

European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of

federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in

Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to

take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the

publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.

We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If

enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in

the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,

would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected

by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the

European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted

pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist

thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe

which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not

want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state.

This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better

governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to

become better, to change our programme in that question. That

should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for

that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to

be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are

matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent

candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British

commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election

-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.

Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European

They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs

and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.

What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body

which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission

This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They

didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes.

They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once

in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,

drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they

are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the

party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and

the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting

such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election

under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was

invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.

When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most

seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated

using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --

first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and

London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,

if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant

to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to

UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would

have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by

mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to

experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of

1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This

man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and

polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat

candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards

realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little

Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do --

bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.

Mr Sanders got some consolation. In 1998, laws came into rule on

so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was

established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh

floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to

voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the

conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name

of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those

registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our

opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on

the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,

were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need

to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An

independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved

in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the

description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word

independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in

1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again

at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the

major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking

votes of them. Joining me now to discuss

this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the

South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is

the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that

were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to

tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the

breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats

that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those

with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there

is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people

who had voted at the top ballot papers, the amount of people

bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I

want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is

said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange

for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than

me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally

been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been

voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected

anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What

would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for

her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions

to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat

for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share

of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If

he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could

stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said

we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and

that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the

Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for

UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think

happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,

the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really

sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are

the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is

reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -

a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal

process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks

that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important

to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and

the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an

Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote

and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the

south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote

share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats

in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The

Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have

ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral

Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections

generally. If we poll around 7%, 8%, we should be looking at having 30,

40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider

proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept

the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened

is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the

rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel

Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,

particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on

Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None

whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no

redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything

so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree

with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown

Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of

accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We

have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence

which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it

has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been

massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything

it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.

Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral

Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes

decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is

about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent

people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?

You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I

do not think it should have a right to appeal.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.

After a stream of apologies, the heat has gone out

but just how important an issue is racism for politicians?

I'll be talking to the chair of the Community Relations Council

and a former member of the Equality Commission to hear their thoughts.

Plus, with a whole raft of new councillors voted into post,

I'll be hearing from some of those new faces and asking them how ready

And with their thoughts on all of that, PR expert Sheila Davidson

Both Peter Robinson and Pastor McConnell have apologised

taking some of the heat out of the political row on racism.

Yesterday protesters took to the streets of Belfast

for the second Saturday in a row, demanding an end to racist attacks

and for Stormont to publish its Racial Equality Strategy.

So where is the anti-racism document?

Joining me is the chairman of the Community Relations Council,

who's a former member of the Equality Commission.

thank you for joining us. How damaging the finger last couple of

weeks has been? Community relations have suffered. I think there is

momentum around this community demonstrated in the rally yesterday

to do some positive things around community relations, sectarianism is

a -- sectarianism and racism. I think for the public record, we have

seen constructive behaviour and a lesson for us all in many ways from

the Islamic Centre in Belfast. A couple of things coming out of the

rally yesterday, there was a view from wider civic society that an

attack on anybody is an attack on us all, on our aspirations for Belfast

and Northern Ireland to be a diverse society, and there was a view coming

out of the rally yesterday, I have heard that we need a racial equality

strategy. The next number of days and weeks, there needs to be a

strong, robust and ambitious strategy that is properly resourced.

Paul Yam, what do the people that you represents a about what has

happened over the past fortnight? It is not surprising for them that it

has happened. It is not great and reassuring that politicians did not

unite in the first instance but seeing the Muslim community showing

their true colours in terms of their belief about peace, it is excellent.

I do work with the Muslim community as well and have contact with them.

They have tried really hard in terms of working with the local community

to have a mosque of a centre but they are disappointed with what has

happened. Disappointed if politicians? Yes, I mean the bottom

line is, for the minority community, we do not have a political party to

look forward to, who else represents a minority community? It is

important for the minority community to be represented, and for the

politicians to represent everyone. Politicians would say that they try

as best they can to represent everyone. You would not want one

party the presenting ethnic minorities necessarily. Is there a

way of representing minorities from different communities in this

society, perhaps finding a political voice, and becoming more engaged in

the political process, whether that is through the main parties some of

the fringe parties? We have the all-party group for minorities. We

would like to see all parties eagerly attend the meeting and be

represented there. We do not have all sections of the party that

attend it all the time. We want to see if different parties would reach

out to the minorities, and let the minorities focus into politics as

well. There must be disappointment that the racial equality strategy

has been seven years in the writing and it has still not been published,

even for consultation. What you could interpret that as indicating

is that that subject is not a priority for local politicians. Is

that how you see it? I suppose it is. Coming from 2010, you have got a

four-year gap that is not happening. And only recently we have been

working very hard on it. Hopefully it will go out for consultation. It

will be very useful for all the communities to look at it and

feedback and actually work together as a cohesive community and tackle

racism, tackle community cohesion about integration. That is a

positive interpretation of what the strategy could be, but is it

acceptable that we have still not seen it? It is appalling that it has

taken seven years to produce this racial equality strategy. It needs

to be produced quickly, it needs to be robust and properly resourced. We

need to hold a mirror up to ourselves and ask whether the fact

that the best taken seven years is a reflection of the priority we need

to give to tackling racism and sectarianism. Is that the conclusion

you have reached, that it is not a sufficient matter of concern for

politicians to get a piece of paper in the public domain for

discussion? Never mind the reactions that would subsequently followed.

They need to reflect whether they have put enough power behind it.

Seven years is an appalling length of time to wait for that strategy.

It needs to be robust and ambitious. Is it also possibly the case that

people in your organisation, the Community Relations Council and the

Equality Commission, and other people who have a public art form

have let the politicians off the hook? There has been over many years

and the last number of weeks especially. Many people in civic

society said we needed to have this sort of strategy. If you look at the

Community Relations Council from 16th of June, they support

hundreds, dozens of projects throughout Northern Ireland, with

events reflecting on the peace building and antiracism work that

the council supports, and we hope that many people will support those

events from 16th of June. That said, we have to acknowledge the

contribution that people from minority ethnic and migrant workers

make the Northern Ireland is huge, it is social, cultural and economic.

The contribution that they make is absolutely massive. We need to

recognise that. Politicians, from the top down, need to be more vocal

in recognising that as well. Thank you both.

Let's hear the thoughts of today's commentators,

Gladys Ganiel and Sheila Davidson. Is this acceptable? This has been

ongoing for a number of years. Whether it has happened in good time

not as a matter for debate. It is all about cause and effect. What has

upped the ante on this is not just what Pastor McConnell said, it was

the actual physical attack on a young man in north Belfast that

started to get people to understand what the consequence was, that kind

of rhetoric happening in the public domain. And that is the kind of

thing we need to keep focusing on. And that is why the reaction of the

Muslim community has been so instructive to us all, because they

have taken that attack on their own community and they have been

incredibly generous and respect will -- respectful back into the amenity.

There are -- community. But individual members of their

community are not happy with the response that they have had. We

cannot allow politicians and organisations that represent those

people off the hook. None of us should get off the hook on this. We

must understand that this affects ordinary people on the ground. They

are hurt, and this is what we need to understand, the cause and effect

of this. It is so important. It is important to say this is not just

have vast two weeks. This has been coming down the road a long time. In

2013 research showed there were more research Ashmeade racist attacks in

Belfast than in 2003 in Ireland and Northern Ireland combined.

Belfast than in 2003 in Ireland and seen an increase that was ignored

until the last two weeks with the controversy with Pastor McConnell.

We need to recognise that. And the last three or four years, there have

been four could tickle reports about the level of prosecutions for hate

crime. By the time these cases reach court, only about 15% are able to be

prosecuted. In terms of a closely at how many cases get to

court. Paul Yam, if you wanted to look at a positive I mention to this

debate, you would say look at a positive I mention to this

fast was a very support for -- in Belfast was a

public support for -- in Belfast was a

More people out on a wet Saturday afternoon than on the previous week.

It is important for all the communities coming forward, to say

that racism is wrong. I think by not saying anything, in a way, you are

indirectly supporting the wrong, itself. If you go back and talk

about hate crime, you talk about bullying in school,

about hate crime, you talk about in school. In Northern Ireland there

is no bullying policy in school. The bullying policy, lots of head

teachers, they are not adequately able to deal with bullying in

school. Bullying policy needs to be in place in all schools and teachers

have to be trade -- trained for it. That is an interesting other

dimensional to the discussion that you have raised. We will hear more

from our guest commentators later in the programme.

Thank you all. Now, let's pause for a moment

and take a look back at the week in 60 seconds, with Stephen Walker.

Peter Robinson went to Belfast Islamic Centre and showed that sorry

is not a hard world at all. I apologised to them, you said in

private, I say that I apologised face-to-face, personally,

man-to-man, the way that it should be done. There was anger in the

Stormont Chamber over his absence from the Chamber during a debate on

racism. It is deeply regrettable that he is not here. There is an

empty Chair there are, well the First Minister should be. The police

on Bosman takes Matt I get to court over whims of obstruction was a

former business said that the law is clear. -- Matt Badgett. Parliament

made it will clear. It is explicit. And in the Assembly, one question

was a cut above the rest. I thank the member for his question. I did

not think he had much of an interest in hairdressers!

The DUP's Adrian McQuillan taking Mark H Durkan's joke in good spirit.

Now, the election to the new super councils two weeks ago

ushered in a wave of young, eager faces to the political scene here.

The newly-elected councillors will soon be cutting their teeth

than those serving in local government in the past.

But, just like comic book superheroes, with extra power

comes extra responsibility. So how ready are they?

Joining me now are Alex Redpath of the Ulster Unionists,

the SDLP's Laura Devlin and Ross Brown from the Greens.

Welcome to the programme. Are you well enough equipped to deal with

the new powers on the super councils that will take up authority in ten

months time? I believe so. I trained as an economist. That has given me a

good background in terms of economic element issues that will be taken up

by the councils. And also having an understanding of the principles of

sustainability, incorporating that into the planning policy is going to

be important as well. You might be confident for yourself, but do you

think that other new councillors who will face the same challenges next

spring will be equally well-qualified and prepared? I am

willing to work with everybody on the council and share my expertise

and experience and do my best to make sure that the council is an

effective body. The councils have been given powers of community

planning and it is important that we have the communities equipped to not

just be asked of consultants in the planning process, but to be active

participants. Even more importantly, we need to empower

communities and make sure that they can become participants in the

process. Are you as confident as Ross is? I come from a constituency

background, 11 years experience working in constituency offices. I

believe that will stand me in good stead. I think we have a good mix of

people. We have a lot of new people, fresh blood, which is billion, but

we have councillors who have significant experience. 40 years in

local government. So, to take that experience, I think that it will be

a good fit, moving forward. Alex, do you ever wake up in the middle of

the night and think, what have I let myself in for? Occasionally. I have

lived in Liz Burn my entire life. I am the governor of a local special

school, I have experience, and I have the skill set, and I am

confident for my colleagues and for the other councillors in the area.

We are going to be receiving training. There are big challenges

ahead. I am confident for myself and my party that we can grasp these

challenges. There are big challenges, aren't there, on things

like where the council will have its headquarters, you have got two big

Unionist councils now merge, is that going to be a harmonious marriage?

There are are issues like flags and emblems. Maybe they knew super

councils could be caught on the hook of those issues before they make

progress on the other big issues. These are potentially controversial

issues. The other councillors have a diverse range of views. One of my

colleagues represents the public side of the constituency as far away

as Don Donald. We are going to be trying to build a sense of teamwork

between the areas. To try and create a shared identity. We have alluded

to controversial topics like flags and emblems. The best way to

approach those issues is with charity and respect for your

colleagues and try to come up with a collaborative approach. Do you think

that it could nonetheless get caught on the hook of flags and emblems?

That is where the flags protest was created. I agree with Alex, we

should approach the matter with a degree of maturity. The issue of

flags and emblems are symptomatic of deeper, wider issues in society and

underlying social issues and issues of intergenerational poverty and

education and health issues. We need to speak to people in the

committee. These are issues that are important for them. I would hope to

focus my time and agenda on making sure that people in society are not

being left behind, because many people out there at the moment feel

that the government is not delivering for them. That is where

my focus will be. Flags might not be an issue in your community as in

other areas but you have had the issue of the Raymond McCreesh Park.

That is to be addressed by the new supercars all. Could there be a

issues that will hold you back in the future? I think the key thing is

for us to move forward and to ensure that what we're

for us to move forward and to ensure the people of the constituency. We

have a very good mix of the people of the constituency. We

priority, pushing the people of the constituency. We

are talking about flags and planning permission and housing benefit

issues. Very real issues that affect people. Are they talking about the

geographic nature of that new super council? It is a large council. Is

it possible that people living on either end of it will feel

disconnected from other people? We either end of it will feel

are the third guest council in Northern Ireland, after Belfast

are the third guest council in Derry. It is a vast area.

are the third guest council in key things is to make sure that

local people have access to local representatives, and that there is

local access. That is doing representatives, and that there is

big thing for the new council. -- going to be. It is the biggest of

the new super councils. What do you think of that geographical issue?

How big an issue will that have on people as they connect with their

new political representatives? There will always be a trade-off. It is

incumbent on us as representatives to connect the council to people and

be active in the community. My council has a big geographical

spread. And I am therefore all of the people of Lisburn and

Castlereagh. Do you think that City Hall is ready for your brand of

green politics? People are looking for something different, looking for

change, and bringing forward the politics of green politics, social

justice and sustainability. Interesting to hear your thoughts.

We wish you well. Let's hear more from Sheila Davidson

and Gladys Ganiel. There is lots of optimism around,

but there are also challenges. I would like to commend these three

for their optimism going bald. I think that they might be

underestimating the teething problems. -- for the optimism going

forward. I think this is all well and good, but that is probably not

quite enough. What is needed is leadership that goes beyond the

mutual talents and respect and shows some grace and discourse about the

common good and is willing to take that extra step to demonstrate to

people what it might actually look like, to go beyond mutual respect, I

suppose, just a more gracious way of speaking and talking with each

other. The first job of every politician is to get re-elected.

There was always a honeymoon period when you have just been elected and

it can be very gracious. The challenge for these young people,

and I am pleased to hear such wonderful, articulate and thoughtful

considerations in what the problems are, and I hope that will affect

what the solutions are, and that is what we will all be looking for, for

you to give us some leadership, and deliver on that.

The old adage says that 'manners maketh the man' and while we might

now live in a more informal world, minding your Ps and Qs are still

important to some - particularly those who tread the corridors

As we discovered, the former Police Ombudsman, Baroness O'Loan, was

in no mood for Jeffrey Donaldson's more casual approach to etiquette

Baroness O'Loan director Jeffrey Donaldson with a smile on her face.

There is a tendency to put women down. I doubt he would have done

that to a man. She was quite right, but again, very gracious in how she

dealt with it. Have you had a lot of learning to do over here? I have

done a little bit of learning, we all need to be careful.

Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?

Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make

we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read

the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read

the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in

your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not

being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national

holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off

instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is

going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to

influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like

the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society

and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to

Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such

as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as

guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit

half of what men saying this means that women inherit

and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get

any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law

Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is

meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different

situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my

profession of you and planned infiltration? In my

profession of you having spent 13 years on the leadership of an

Islamist organisation, having been involved

Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very

Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to

influence the students of this country with a medieval

interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative

view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within

our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were

explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican

faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.

Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a

policy question. I am not generally in favour.

policy question. I am not generally establishment. I am not a fan of

faith schools. I do think the solution is to

faith schools. I do think the these schools

faith schools. I do think the communities and not being insular

and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is

coming important. The Ofsted report is

had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a

serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the

segregation of children into intensely populated areas where

everyone is Muslim intensely populated areas where

have to have a system intensely populated areas where

children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular

school often happens, even with a secular

Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that

leaves the rest like-for-like schools and that

to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite

hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have

hypocritical about the profound schools. You have Orthodox Jewish

schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict

Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get

worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a

problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state

problem. You have to look at the should simply withdraw from the

business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The

business of faith education. Like overall government policy is to take

power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some

schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than

incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of

this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you

devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and

behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary

for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views

that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe

would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how

tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that

view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do

expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the

taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,

educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated

equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at

which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the former development Secretary,

because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned

about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.

There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley

Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating

free schools and academies is undermined the work of local

education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which

are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of

being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have

the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary

of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not

that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the

oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point. By

tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you

think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The

story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report

that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other

report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in

July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look

at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even

government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism

became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed

the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the

argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They

should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society. It

was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a

hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to

resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just

has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?

You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping

him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a

massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal

market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic

decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he

takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the

beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British

Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is

reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.

There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot

of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from

Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and

drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could

think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I

remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when

the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European

constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the

ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively

rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You

can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the

people who have protested at the elections with the way the European

Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What

has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we

go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink

at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.

Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define

clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough

for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the

fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We

need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,

assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is

what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to

finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger

people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually

liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too

late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the

one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been

doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight

three general elections to the left of Labour

three general elections to the left are in coalition with the Tories,

you have got a problem. I are in coalition with the Tories,

back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.