Browse content similar to 22/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welfare reform is one of the government's most popular policies. | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
So Labour says it would be even tougher than the Tories. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
We'll be asking the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary if she's got | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
Even Labour supporters worry that Ed Miliband hasn't got what it takes | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
Labour grandees are increasingly vocal about their concerns. | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
Over 50% of Labour voters think they'd do better with a new leader. | :01:02. | :01:12. | |
And what of this leader? He's apparently "toxic" on the doorstep. | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
And coming up here - Sammy Wilson and Alex Attwood | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
What impact will it have in stopping racism here? | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
And we look back at the life of Gerry Conlon who died yesterday. | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
promised an electric car revolution, why so little progress? | :01:29. | :01:40. | |
Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, the toxic tweeters | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
First, the deepening crisis in Iraq, where Sunni Islamists are now | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
largely in control of the Syrian-Iraq border, which means | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
they can now re-supply their forces in Iraq from their Syrian bases. | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
Rather than moving on Baghdad, they are for the moment consolidating | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
their grip on the towns and cities they've already taken. | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
They also seem to be in effective control of Iraq's | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
biggest oil refinery, which supplies the capital. | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
And there are reports they might now have taken the power | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
Iraqi politicians are now admitting that ISIS, | :02:18. | :02:26. | |
far more battle-hardened than the US-trained Iraqi army fighting it. | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
Which leaves the fate of Baghdad increasingly in the hands | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
No good news coming out of there, Janan. No good news and no good | :02:36. | :02:52. | |
options either. The West's best strategy is to decide how much | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
support to give to the Iraqi government. The US is sending over | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
about 275 military personnel. Do they go further and contemplate | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
their support? General Petraeus argued against it as it might be | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
seen as the US serving as the force of Shia Iraqis -- continue their | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
support. Do we contemplate breaking up Iraq? It won't be easy. The Sunni | :03:18. | :03:26. | |
and Shia Muslim populations don't live in clearly bordered areas, but | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
in the longer term, do we deal with it in the same way we dealt with the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
break-up of the Ottoman empire over 100 years ago? In the short-term and | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
long-term, completely confounding. Quite humiliating. If ISIS take | :03:38. | :03:45. | |
Baghdad I can't think of a bigger ignominy for foreign policy since | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
Suez. If Iraq is partitioned, it won't be up to us. It will be what | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
is happening because of what is happening on the ground. Everything | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
does point to partition, and that border, which ISIS control, between | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
Syria and Iraq, that has been there since it was drawn during the First | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
World War. That is gone as well. An astonishingly humbling situation the | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
West, and you can see the Kurds in the North think this is a charge -- | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
chance for authority. They think this is the chance to get the | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
autonomy they felt they deserved a long time. Janan is right. We can't | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
do much in the long term, but we have to decide on the engagement. | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
And the other people wish you'd be talking turkey, because if there is | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
some blowback and the fighters come back, they are likely to come back | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
from Turkey. Where is Iran in all of this? There were reports last week | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
that the Revolutionary guard, the head of it, he was already in | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Baghdad with 67 advisers and there might have been some brigades that | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
have gone there as well. Where are they? What has happened? I'm pretty | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
sure the Prime Minister of Iraq is putting more faith in Iran than the | :05:03. | :05:14. | |
White House and the British. I think they are running the show, in | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
technical terms. John Kerry is flying into Cairo this morning, and | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
what is his message? It is twofold. One is to Arab countries, do more to | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
encourage an inclusive government in Iraq, mainly Sunni Muslims in the | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
government, and the Arab Gulf states should stop funding insurgents in | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
Iraq. You think, Iraq, it's potentially going to break up, so | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
this sounds a bit late in the day and a bit weak. It gets | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
fundamentally to the problem, what can we do? Niall Ferguson has a big | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
piece in the Sunday Times asking if this is place where we cannot doing | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
anything. He doesn't want to do anything. By the way, that is what | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
most Americans think. That is what opinion polls are showing. You have | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
George Osborne Michael Gold who would love to get involved but they | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
cannot because of the vote in parliament on Syria lasted -- George | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
Osborne and Michael Gove. This government does not have the stomach | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
for military intervention. We will see how events unfold on the ground. | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
All parties are agreed that Britain's 60-year old multi-billion | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
The Tory side of the Coalition think their reforms are necessary | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
and popular, though they haven't always gone to time or to plan. | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
In the eight months she's had since she became Shadow Secretary of State | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
for Work and Pensions, Rachel Reeves has talked the talk about getting | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
people off benefits, into work and lowering the overall welfare bill. | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
her first interview in the job she threatened "We would | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
But Labour has opposed just about every change the Coalition | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
has proposed to cut the cost and change the culture of welfare. | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
Child benefit, housing benefit, the ?26,000 benefit cap - | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
They've been lukewarm about the government's flagship Universal | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
Credit scheme - which rolls six benefit payments into one - and | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
And Labour has set out only two modest welfare cuts. | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
This week, Labour said young people must have skills or be in training | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
That will save ?65 million, says Labour, though the cost | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
And cutting winter fuel payments for richer pensioners which will | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
Not a lot in a total welfare bill of around ?200 billion. | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
And with welfare cuts popular among even Labour voters, they will soon | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
have to start spelling out exactly what Labour welfare reform means. | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
Welcome. Good morning. Why do you want to be tougher than the Tories? | :07:44. | :07:56. | |
We want to be tough in getting the welfare bill down. Under this | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
government, the bill will be ?13 million more than the government set | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
out in 2010 and I don't think that is acceptable. We should try to | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
control the cost of Social Security. But the welfare bill under the next | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
Labour government will fall? It will be smaller when you end the first | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
parliament than when you started? We signed up to the capping welfare but | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
that doesn't see social security costs ball, it sees them go up in | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
line with with inflation or average earnings -- costs fall. So where | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
flair will rise? We have signed up to the cap -- welfare will rise? We | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
have signed up to the cap. We will get the costs under control and they | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
haven't managed to achieve it. The government is spending ?13 billion | :08:42. | :08:43. | |
more on Social Security and the reason they are doing it is because | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
the minimum wage has not kept pace with the cost of living so people | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
are reliant on tax credits. They are not building | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
are reliant on tax credits. They are relying on housing benefit. | :08:56. | :08:57. | |
are reliant on tax credits. They are a record number of people on zero | :08:58. | :08:58. | |
hours contracts. I'm a record number of people on zero | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
if you will cut welfare if you get in power. Nobody is saying that the | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
cost of welfare is going to fall. The welfare cap sees that | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
cost of welfare is going to fall. gradually. That is a Tory cap. | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
you've accepted it. You're being the same as the Tories, not to. If | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
you've accepted it. You're being the had a welfare | :09:25. | :09:24. | |
you've accepted it. You're being the breached it in every year of the | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
parliament. Social Security will be higher than the government set out | :09:30. | :09:30. | |
because higher than the government set out | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
You read the polls, and the party does lots of its own polling, | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
You read the polls, and the party you're scared of being seen as the | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
welfare party. You don't really believe all of this anti-welfare | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
stuff? We are the party of work, not welfare. The Labour Party was set up | :09:48. | :09:49. | |
in the first place because we believe in the dignity of work and | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
we believe that work should pay wages can afford to live on. I make | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
no apologies for being the party of work. We are not the welfare party, | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
we are the party of work. Even your confidential strategy document | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
admits that voters don't trust you on immigration, the economy, this is | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
your own people, and welfare. You are not trusted on it. The most | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
recent poll showed Labour slightly ahead of the Conservative Party on | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
Social Security, probably because they have seen the incompetence and | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
chaos at the Department for Work and Pensions under Iain Duncan Smith. | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
Your own internal document means that | :10:27. | :10:27. | |
Your own internal document means welfare reform. That is why we have | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
shown some of this tough things we will do like the announcement that | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
Ed Miliband made earlier this week, that young people without basic | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
qualifications won't be entitled to just sign on for benefits, they have | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
to sign up for training in order to receive support. That is the right | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
thing to do by that group of young people, because they need skills to | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
progress. We will, once that. -- we will, onto that. You say you | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
criticise the government that it had a cap and wouldn't have met it, but | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
every money-saving welfare reform, you voted against it. How is that | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
being tougher? The most recent bout was the cap on overall welfare | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
expenditure, and we went through the lobbies and voted for the Tories. | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
You voted against the benefit cap, welfare rating, you voted against, | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
child benefit schemes, you voted against. You can't say we voted | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
against everything when we voted with the Conservatives in the most | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
recent bill with a cap on Social Security. It's just not correct to | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
say. The last time we voted, we walked through the lobby with them. | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
You voted on the principle of the cap. You voted on every step that | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
would allow the cap to be met. Every single one. The most recent vote was | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
not on the principle of the cap, it was on a cap of Social Security in | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
the next Parliament and we signed up for that. It was Ed Miliband who | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
called her that earlier on. Which welfare reform did you vote for? We | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
voted for the cap. Other than that? We have supported universal credit. | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
You voted against it in the third reading. We voted against some of | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
the specifics. If you look at universal credit, they have had to | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
write off nearly ?900 million of spending. I'm not on the rights and | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
wrongs, I'm trying to work out what you voted for. Some of the things we | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
are going to go further than the government with. For example, | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
cutting benefits for young people who don't sign of the training. The | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
government had introduced that. For example, saying that the richest | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
pensioners should not get the winter fuel allowance, that is something | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
the government haven't signed up. You would get that under Labour and | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
this government haven't signed up for it. ?100 million on the winter | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
fuel allowance and ?65 million on youth training. ?165 million. How | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
big is the welfare budget? The cap would apply to ?120 billion. And | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
you've saved 125 -- 165 million? Those are cuts that we said we would | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
do in government. If you look at the real prize from the changes Ed | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
Miliband announced in the youth allowance, it's not the short-term | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
savings, it's the fact that each of these young people, who are | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
currently on unemployment benefits without the skills we know they need | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
to succeed in life, they will cost the taxpayer ?2000 per year. I will | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
come onto that. You mentioned universal credit, which the | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
government regards as the flagship reform. It's had lots of troubles | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
with it and it merges six benefits into one. You voted against it in | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
the third reading and given lukewarm support in the past. We have not | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
said he would abandon it, but now you say you are for it. You are all | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
over the place. We set up the rescue committee in autumn of last year | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
because we have seen from the National Audit Office and the Public | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
Accounts Committee, report after report showing that the project is | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
massively overbudget and is not going to be delivered according to | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
the government timetable. We set up the committee because we believe in | :14:17. | :14:18. | |
the principle of universal credit and think it is the right thing to | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
do. Can you tell us now if you will keep it or not? Because there is no | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
transparency and we have no idea. We are awash with information. We are | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
not. The government, in the most recent National audit Forest -- | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
National Audit Office statement said it was a reset project. This is | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
really important. This is a flagship government programme, and it's going | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
to cost ?12.8 billion to deliver, and we don't know what sort of state | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
it is in, so we have said that if we win at the next election, we will | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
pause that for three months and calling... Will you stop the pilots? | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
We don't know what status they will have. We would stop the build of the | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
system for three months, calling the National Audit Office to do awards | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
and all report. The government don't need to do this until the next | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
general election, they could do it today. Stop throwing good money | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
after bad and get a grip of this incredibly important programme. You | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
said you don't know enough to a view now. So when you were invited to a | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
job centre where universal credit is being rolled out to see how it was | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
working, you refused to go. Why? We asked were a meeting with Iain | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
Duncan Smith and he cancelled the meeting is three times. I'm talking | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
about the visit when you were offered to go to a job centre and | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
you refused. We had an appointment to meet Iain Duncan Smith at the | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
Department for Work and Pensions and said he cancelled and was not | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
available, but he wanted us to go to the job centre. We wanted to talk to | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
him and his officials, which she did. Would it be more useful to go | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
to the job centre and find out how it was working. He's going to tell | :16:06. | :16:06. | |
you it's working fine. Advice Bureau in Hammersmith, they | :16:07. | :16:24. | |
are working to help the people trying to claim universal credit. | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
Iain Duncan Smith cancelled three meetings. That is another issue, I | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
was asking about the job centre. It is not another issue because Iain | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
Duncan Smith fogged us off. This week you said that jobless | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
youngsters who won't take training will lose their welfare payments. | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
How many young people are not in work training or education? There | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
are 140,000 young people claiming benefits at the moment, but 850,000 | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
young people who are not in work at the moment. This applies to around | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
100,000 young people. There are actually 975,000, 16-24 -year-olds, | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
not in work, training or education. Your proposal only applies to | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
100,000 of them, why? This is applying to young people who are | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
signing on for benefits rather than signing up for training. We want to | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
make sure that all young people... Why only 100,000? They | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
currently getting job-seeker's allowance. We are saying you | :17:45. | :17:53. | |
currently getting job-seeker's just sign up to... Can I get you | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
currently getting job-seeker's respond to this, the number of | :17:59. | :18:00. | |
people not in work, training respond to this, the number of | :18:01. | :18:01. | |
than you are respond to this, the number of | :18:02. | :18:15. | |
turn -- long-term unemployment is an entrenched problem... This issue | :18:16. | :18:24. | |
about an entrenched group of young people. Young people who haven't got | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
skills and are not in training we know are much less likely to get a | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
job so there are 140,018-24 -year-olds signing onto benefits at | :18:35. | :18:36. | |
the moment. This is about trying -year-olds signing onto benefits at | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
address that problem to make sure all young people have the skills | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
is to take away part of the dole is to take away part of the dole | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
unless young unemployed people agree to study for level | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
qualifications, the equivalent of an AS-level or an NVQ but 40% of these | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
people have the literary skills of a nine-year-old. After all that failed | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
education, how are you going to train them to a level standard? We | :19:10. | :19:17. | |
are saying that anyone who doesn't have that a level or equivalent | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
qualification will be required to go back to college. We are not saying | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
that within a year they have to get up to that level but these are | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
exactly the sorts of people... These people have been failed by your | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
exactly the sorts of people... These education system. These people are, | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
for the last four years, have been educated under a Conservative | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
government. 18 - 21-year-olds, most of them have their education under a | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
Labour government during which 300,000 people left with no GCSEs | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
whatsoever. I don't understand how training for one year can do what 11 | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
years in school did not. We are not saying that within one year | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
everybody will get up to a level three qualifications, but if you are | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
one of those people who enters the Labour market age 18 with the | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
reading skills of a nine-year-old, they are the sorts of people that | :20:12. | :20:19. | |
should not the left languishing. I went to college in Hackney if you | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
you are -- a few weeks ago and there was a dyslexic boy studying painting | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
and decorating. In school they decided he was a troublemaker and | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
that he didn't want to learn. He went back to college because he | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
wanted to get the skills. He said that it wasn't until he went back to | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
college that he could pick up a newspaper and read it, it made a | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
huge difference but too many people are let down by the system. I am | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
wondering how the training will make up for an education system that | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
failed them but let's move on to your leader. Look at this graph of | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
Ed Miliband's popularity. This is the net satisfaction with him, it is | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
dreadful. The trend continues to climb since he became leader of the | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
Labour Party, why? What you have seen is another 2300 Labour | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
councillors since Ed Miliband became the leader of the Labour Party. You | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
saw in the elections a month ago that... Why is the satisfaction rate | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
falling? We can look at polls or actual election results and the fact | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
that we have got another 2000 Labour councillors, more people voting | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
Labour, the opinion polls today show that if there was a general election | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
today we would have a majority of more than 40, he must be doing | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
something right. Why do almost 50% of voters want to replace him as | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
leader? Why do 50% and more think that he is not up to the job? The | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
more people see Ed Miliband, the less impressed they are. The British | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
people seem to like him less. The election strategy I suggest that | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
follows from that is that you should keep Ed Miliband under wraps until | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
the election. Let's look at actually what happens when people get a | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
chance to vote, when they get that opportunity we have seen more Labour | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
councillors, more Labour members of the European Parliament... | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
Oppositions always get more. The opinion polls today, one of them | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
shows Labour four points ahead. You have not done that well in local | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
government elections or European elections. Why don't people like | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
him? I think we have done incredibly well in elections. People must like | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
a lot of the things Labour and Ed Miliband are doing because we are | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
winning back support across the country. We won local councils in | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
places like Hammersmith and Fulham, Crawley, Hastings, key places that | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
Labour need to win back at the general election next year. Even you | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
have said traditional Labour supporters are abandoning the party. | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
That is what Ed Miliband has said as well. We have got this real concern | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
about what has happened. If you look at the elections in May, 60% of | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
people didn't even bother going to vote. That is a profound issue not | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
just for Labour. You said traditional voters who perhaps at | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
times we took for granted are now being offered an alternative. Why | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
did you take them for granted? This is what Ed Miliband said. I am not | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
saying anything Ed Miliband himself has not said. When he ran for the | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
leadership he said that we took too many people for granted and we | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
needed to give people positive reasons to vote Labour, he has been | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
doing that. He has been there for four years and you are saying you | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
still take them for granted. Why? I am saying that for too long we have | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
taken them for granted. We are on track to win the general election | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
next year and that will defy all the odds. You are going to win... Ed | :24:24. | :24:34. | |
Miliband will win next year and make a great Prime Minister. | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
Now to the Liberal Democrats, at the risk of intruding into private | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
grief. The party is still smarting from dire results in the European | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
and Local Elections. The only poll Nick Clegg has won in recent times | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
is to be voted the most unpopular leader of a party in modern British | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
history. No surprise there have been calls for him to go, though that | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
still looks unlikely. Here's Eleanor. | :25:00. | :24:59. | |
Liberal Democrats celebrating, something we haven't seen for a | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
while. This victory back in 1998 led to a decade of power for the Lib | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
Dems in Liverpool. What a contrast to the city's political landscape | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
today. At its height the party had 69 local councillors, now down to | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
just three. The scale of the challenge facing Nick Clegg and the | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
Lib Dems is growing. The party is rock bottom in the polls, | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
consistently in single figures. It was wiped out in the European | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
elections losing all but one of its 12 MEPs and in the local elections | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
it lost 42% of the seats that it was defending. But on Merseyside, Nick | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
Clegg was putting on a brave face. We did badly in Liverpool, | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
Manchester and London in particular, we did well in other places. But you | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
are right, we did badly in some of those big cities and I have | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
initiated a review, those big cities and I have | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
naturally, to understand what went wrong, what went right. As Lib Dems | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
across the country get on with some serious soul-searching, there is an | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
admission that his is the leader of the party who is failing to hit the | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
right notes. Knocking on doors in Liverpool, I have to tell you that | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
Nick Clegg is not a popular person. Some might use the word toxic and I | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
find this very difficult because I know Nick very well and I see a | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
principal person who passionately believes in what he is doing and he | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
is a nice guy. As a result of his popularity, what has happened to the | :26:41. | :26:52. | |
core vote? In parts of the country, we are down to just three | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
councillors like Liverpool for example. You also lose the | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
deliverers and fundraisers and the organisers and the members of course | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
so all of that will have to be rebuilt. As they start fermenting | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
process, local parties across the country and here in Liverpool have | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
been voting on whether there should be a leadership contest. We had two | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
choices to flush out and have a go at Nick Clegg or to positively | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
decide we would sharpen up the campaign and get back on the | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
streets, and by four to one ratio we decided to get back on the streets. | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
We are bruised and battered but we are still here, the orange flag is | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
We are bruised and battered but we still flying and one day it will fly | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
over this building again, Liverpool town hall. But do people want the | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
Lib Dems back in charge in this city? I certainly wouldn't vote for | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
them. Their performance in Government and the way they have | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
left their promises down, I could not vote for them again. I voted Lib | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
Dem in the last election because of the university tuition fees and I | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
would never vote for them again because they broke their promise. | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
The Lib Dems are awful, broken promises and | :28:14. | :28:15. | |
The Lib Dems are awful, broken wouldn't vote for them. This is the | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
declaration of the results for the Northwest... Last month, as other | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
party celebrated in the north-west, the Lib Dems here lost their only | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
MEP, Chris Davies. Now there is concern the party doesn't know how | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
to turn its fortunes around. We don't have an answer to that, if we | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
did we would be grasping it with both hands. We will do our best to | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
hold onto the places where we still have seats but as for the rest of | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
the country where we have been hollowed out, we don't know how to | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
start again until the next general election is out of the way. After | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
their disastrous performance in the European elections, pressure is | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
growing for the party to shift its stance. I think there has to be a | :29:05. | :29:15. | |
lancing of the wound, there should in a referendum and the Liberal | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
Democrats should be calling it. The rest of Europe once this because | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
they are fed up with Britain being unable to make up its mind. The Lib | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
Dems are now suffering the effects of being in Government. The party's | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
problem, choosing the right course to regain political credibility. | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
We can now speak to form a Lib Dems leader Ming Campbell. Welcome back | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
to the Sunday Politics. Even your own activists say that Nick Clegg is | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
toxic. How will that change between now and the election? When you have | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
had disappointing results, but you have to do is to rebuild. You pick | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
yourself up and start all over again, and the reason why the | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
Liberal Democrats got 57, 56 seats in the House of Commons now is | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
because we picked ourselves up, we took every opportunity and we have | :30:15. | :30:15. | |
rebuilt from the bottom up. least popular leader in modern | :30:16. | :30:28. | |
history and more unpopular than your mate Gordon Brown. You are running | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
out of time. No one believes that being the leader of a modern | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
political party in the UK is an easy job. Both Ed Miliband and David | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
Cameron must have had cause to think, over breakfast this morning, | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
when they saw the headlines in some of the Sunday papers. Of course it | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
is a difficult job but it was pointed out a moment or two ago that | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
Nick Clegg is a man of principle and enormous resilience if you consider | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
what he had to put up with, and in my view, he is quite clearly the | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
person best qualified to lead the party between now and the general | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
election and through the election campaign, and beyond. So why don't | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
people like him? We have had to take some pretty difficult decisions, | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
and, of course, people didn't expect that. If you look back to the rather | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
heady days of the rose garden behind ten Downing St, people thought it | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
was all going to be sweetness and light, but the fact is, we didn't | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
know then what we know now, about the extent of the economic crisis we | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
win, and a lot of difficult decisions have had to be taken in | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
order to restore economic stability. Look around you. You will see we are | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
not there yet but we are a long way better off than in 2010. You are not | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
getting the credit for it, the Tories are. We will be a little more | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
assertive about taking the credit. For example, the fact that 23 | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
million people have had a tax cut of ?800 per year and we have taken 2 | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
million people out of paying tax altogether. Ming Campbell, your | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
people say that on every programme like this. Because it is true. That | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
might be the case, but you are at seven or 8% in the polls, and nobody | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
is listening, or they don't believe it. Once | :32:15. | :32:22. | |
is listening, or they don't believe doubt that what we have achieved | :32:23. | :32:23. | |
will be much more easily recognised, and there is no doubt, | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
for example, in some of the recent polls, like the Ashcroft Pole, | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
something like 30% of those polled said that as a result at the next | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
something like 30% of those polled general election, they would prepare | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
their to be a coalition involving the Liberal Democrats. So there is | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
no question that the whole notion of coalition is still very much a live | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
one, and one which we have made work in the public interest. The problem | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
is people don't think that. People see you trying to have your cake and | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
eat it. On the one hand you want to get your share of the credit for the | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
turnaround in the economy, on the other hand you can't stop yourself | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
from distancing yourself from the Tories and things that you did not | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
like happening. You are trying to face both ways at once. If you | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
remember our fellow Scotsman famously said you cannot ride both | :33:15. | :33:27. | |
remember our fellow Scotsman to the terms -- terms of the | :33:28. | :33:27. | |
remember our fellow Scotsman coalition agreement, which is what | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
we signed up to in 2010. In addition, in furtherance of that | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
agreement, we have created things like the pupil premium and the | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
others I mentioned and you were rather dismissive. I'm not | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
dismissive, I'm just saying they don't make a difference to what | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
people think of you. We will do everything in our power to change | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
that between now and May 2015. The interesting thing is, going back to | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
the Ashcroft result, it demonstrated clearly that in constituencies where | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
we have MPs and we are well dug in, we are doing everything that the | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
public expects of us, and we are doing very well indeed. You aren't | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
sure fellow Lib Dems have been saying this for you -- you and your | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
fellow Liberal Dems have been saying this for a year or 18 months, and | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
since then you have lost all of your MEPs apart from one, you lost your | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
deposit in a by-election, you lost 310 councillor, including everyone | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
in Manchester or Islington. Mr Clegg leading you into the next general | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
election will be the equivalent of the charge of the light Brigade. I | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
doubt that very much. The implication behind that lit you | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
rehearsed is that we should pack our tents in the night and steal away. | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
-- that litany. And if you heard in that piece that preceded the | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
discussion, people were saying, look we have to start from the bottom and | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
have to rebuild. That is exactly what we will do. Nine months is | :34:57. | :35:07. | |
have to rebuild. That is exactly what we will do. Nine months is a | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
period of gestation. As you well know. I wouldn't dismiss it quite so | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
easily as that. I'm not here to say we had a wonderful result or | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
anything like it, but what I do say is that the party is determined to | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
turn it round, and that Nick Clegg is the person best qualified to do | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
it. Should your party adopt a referendum about in or out on | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
Europe? No, we should stick to the coalition agreement. If there is any | :35:36. | :35:37. | |
transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels, that will be subject to | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
a referendum. No change. And finally, as a Lib Dem, you must be | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
glad you are not fighting the next election yourself? I've fought every | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
election since 1974, so I've had a few experiences, some good, some | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
bad, but the one thing I have done and the one thing a lot of other | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
people have done is that they have stuck to the task, and that is what | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
will happen in May 2015. Ming Campbell, thank you for joining us. | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :36:14. | :36:23. | |
Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
After years of delay, the Executive has finally published | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
its Racial Equality Strategy, although it comes at a time | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
when the First Minister finds himself at the centre | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
So will the strategy have any impact in stemming the rising tide | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
We'll hear shortly from the SDLP's Alex Attwood | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
Plus, the marching season is upon us - but now the talking's stopped | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
what chance is there of agreement over parading in North Belfast? | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
The talks have been postponed because people are reassessing their | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
position. and more are the columnist | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
Newton Emerson and Dearbhail McDonnell | :37:11. | :37:12. | |
from the Irish Independent. But first, today, | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
tributes have been paid Mr Conlon was wrongly convicted of | :37:16. | :37:17. | |
the 1974 Guildford IRA pub bombings he became a prominent campaigner | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
for justice. His family said he had | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
"forced the world's closed eyes The images were powerful, the motion | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
of a wronged man clearly visible as The images were powerful, the motion | :37:33. | :37:47. | |
Gerry Conlon walked from the Old Bailey in 1989 to address the | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
waiting media. I have been in prison for 15 years. For something I did | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
not do. For something I did not know anything about. Gerry Conlon and | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
three co-accused had been wrong to convicted of the 1974 IRA pub on | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
things in Guildford that killed five people and injured 64 others. It was | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
to be 15 years before those convictions were overturned either | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
Court of Appeal. -- by the Court of Appeal. Who is this? Gerry Conlon. | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
Do you have anything to say? I have cleared my conscience, I advise you | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
to do the same. Their story was the subject of and Oscar-winning film | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
starring Daniel Day-Lewis was a bit of the story of how Giuseppe Conlon | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
had been caught up in it went he tried to help his son. He died while | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
serving his sentence. His conviction was later quashed as well. It still | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
haunts us that the British judiciary could get this so wrong and no for | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
so long that innocent people went to prison. In recent years, Mr Conlon | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
had taken interest in cases both internationally and at home where | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
there have been claims of injustice. Including several involving | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
dissident republicans. He did not cry about his own situation, you | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
opened up the whole public mind in many ways, not just in Northern | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
Ireland but Britain as well to the times when justice is not done. | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
The SDLP leader Alasdair McDonnell on the death of Gerry Conlon. | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
Alex Attwood, you were a friend Mr Conlon's. | :39:26. | :39:26. | |
He'd been a supporter of the SDLP and had addressed the party | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
Yes, he did support Irish democracy and hated injustice anywhere, like | :39:30. | :39:45. | |
anyone who met Gerry Conlon, he was very bright, he was funny, he raged | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
against injustice and miscarriages of justice wherever they were. | :39:50. | :39:50. | |
What was his contribution in the past 25 years? | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
I think that he Guildford case and what Jerry and others did, both | :39:54. | :40:01. | |
inside prison and outside the prison, because a spotlight on the | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
abuses of the state and, having done so, I think they opened up that | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
issue of the many other miscarriages of justice, not just in respect of | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
the conflict here but in other parts of the world. He also never wavered | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
from support for Irish democracy. He raged against injustice and he | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
defended democracy wherever it he thought it needed defending. | :40:26. | :40:27. | |
the British justice system let Gerry Conlon down? | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
I did not know him. I don't know a great deal about his story but it is | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
quite clear that the justice system at the end of the day recognised | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
that he had been wrongly imprisoned and he spent 15 years in prison for | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
something he had not done, that must have a dramatic impact on an | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
individual. Most people watching the programme today will say there has | :40:54. | :40:55. | |
been another injustice and that is where people have been guilty of | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
crimes and victims find no closure or no justice for those crimes. | :41:02. | :41:09. | |
People who had relatives murdered, they will feel the same sense of | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
injustice as Gerry Conlon must have felt. | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
Nobody who has not committed a crime should not be good prison. No, we | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
need to make sure that does not happen. I am sure that anyone who | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
knows the story would accept that for someone to be behind bars for 15 | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
years for something they did not do must eat away like a cancer inside | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
them. We will leave it there. We will hear from you again later. | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
It's been seven years in the making, but finally this week | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
the Executive published its Racial Equality Strategy. | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
It came in a week when a Nigerian man, Michael Abiona, | :41:49. | :41:50. | |
had to abandon plans to move into a house in the east of the city | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
after residents staged a protest, | :41:55. | :41:55. | |
demanding what they called "local housing for local people". | :41:56. | :41:57. | |
Peter Robinson suggested the protest hadn't necessarily been motivated | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
by racism, but could have been down to local pressure on housing. | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
Here's what he told our Political Editor, Mark Devenport. | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
I am not sure that this can be described as racism in terms of what | :42:09. | :42:17. | |
the intention of the local people was. There is mass of concern, and | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
local indie stands means very local. You might not have the same reaction | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
if someone upcountry was moving in in regions where they are not able | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
to get houses. Do you really think that will have been the case if they | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
saw someone with white skin moving into the area? I know it has | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
happened elsewhere. This is not a new phenomenon, there are people who | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
have being brought up on housing estates or their lives, their | :42:52. | :42:53. | |
children grew up on that area and they cannot get them housed in that | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
area. There is a resentment that people from outside their local area | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
are getting houses and they cannot get their children housed close to | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
them. That has to be dealt with by the Housing Executive. It is not to | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
do with those who apply and are granted accommodation in an area. I | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
don't seek to have any justification in any way for that because that is | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
what the rules and regulations are. I want to make it very clear that I | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
oppose anything that suggests that people are unwelcome in Northern | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
Ireland because of their racial background or because of the colour | :43:32. | :43:33. | |
of their skin. Peter Robinson talking to | :43:34. | :43:34. | |
Mark Devenport last week. Sammy Wilson | :43:35. | :43:36. | |
and Alex Attwood are still here. Sammy Wilson - why didn't the | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
First Minister come out and condemn the campaign against | :43:39. | :43:40. | |
Mr Abiona as straightforward racism? At the end of the interview, I think | :43:41. | :43:54. | |
that Peter Robinson has been unfairly criticised for this. At the | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
end of the interview, he made it clear, in unequivocal terms that no | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
one should have that kind of treatment meted out to them because | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
of their race or colour. He was also unsure that it was racist. If you | :44:08. | :44:16. | |
look at the full interview, he said that the police came to that case -- | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
that if the police came to that conclusion, they should look into it | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
further. As far as he is concerned, no one should be subject to that | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
kind of treatment because of where they come from, because of their | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
ethnic Akram, because of their colour, their creed or anything like | :44:37. | :44:37. | |
that. -- debt ethnic background. Why did he leave | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
room for interpretation I don't think the fact were known at | :44:45. | :44:51. | |
that stage. The next day, once it was clear how the police and Housing | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
Executive were treated, he himself reinforced what he had said on the | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
first day that it happened by the statement that he issued. I think it | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
is unfair to say that he was in any way condoning any racist abuse of | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
the particular individual, he wasn't, he made that clear from the | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
start that that is wrong. It should not happen in Northern Ireland, | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
Northern Ireland wants to be a welcoming place for individuals. | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
In this case and in the Pastor McConnell case, | :45:34. | :45:35. | |
he had to re-visit the issue to clarify what he meant. Why? | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
To a certain extent, what he said and how it was interpreted was maybe | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
sometimes beyond his control. I don't think that... He wrote his own | :45:46. | :45:57. | |
script. At least you shall behold -- you showed the whole interview this | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
time. He made it clear that it was not acceptable behaviour and that is | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
the position that has always been the position and in light of the way | :46:07. | :46:17. | |
it was interpreted, he reinforce that issue. It is the first point | :46:18. | :46:29. | |
that everyone should be making, especially Peter Robinson, | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
especially given the events of the last few weeks. There should be no | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
doubt that is what Peter Robinson should have said first and should | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
have said last. The fact that he left things hanging in the air in | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
that interview and the fact that he had to come back the following day, | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
I think tells the true story of what happened in those interviews. The | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
point is, there is no ambiguity. Has been clarified. You should be happy. | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
If people get on the right side of this argument, however long it | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
takes, I welcome that. Peter Robinson got on the wrong side of | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
the argument in that interview. Given what had happened to that | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
family and given what happened over the last three or four weeks, and | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
nobody should the on the wrong side of this argument, given what has | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
happened over the last three or four weeks. At least Peter got on the | :47:22. | :47:32. | |
right side of the ultimate. -- the right side of the argument. It is | :47:33. | :47:42. | |
more than your party has done, not supporting the National Crime | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
Agency, which would help to deal with some of the worst racial abuse, | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
namely the trafficking of vulnerable people into Northern Ireland for | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
exploitation. You got on the wrong side of the argument and you have | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
never apologised for it. Let us do with one of those issues. I | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
recognise my party recognises that we got on the wrong side of the | :48:04. | :48:11. | |
argument in the respect of Clay Park, we recognise that, but there | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
is a pattern of behaviour from Peter Robinson and I saw it around the | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
executive table where his default position or his first position tends | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
to be one of intolerance. You still can't apologise for it and you still | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
can't apologise to the people who were hurt by it. That is the | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
difference. Peter Robinson did apologise, your party... It is a bit | :48:30. | :48:39. | |
rich. I want to go about the racial equality strategy, with its six | :48:40. | :48:49. | |
approaches to tackling equality. Will it make a difference? It is | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
difficult for any strategy or policy to change mindsets. I suppose it | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
does take a long time through education, through other things that | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
can be done, good to nudity relations programmes and so on -- | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
good community relations programmes. I think the executive has to at | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
least respond to some of the issues that exist. Will it make any | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
difference? It will make some difference but everybody knows that | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
this is too little after the events of recent times and it is too late, | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
given that this has come seven years after it was promised. What should | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
we do? We should learn from how we best change behaviour in Northern | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
Ireland over the years and what was that? It was tough law, it was hard | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
enforcement. That is what we did when it came to policing, that is | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
what we did with human rights and equality. Tough law, hard | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
enforcement is the way to deal with these critical issues, including | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
sectarianism and racism. That strategy does not do either of them. | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
Maybe it should have come out quicker, seven years! It is too | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
little, too late. Thank you. Listening to that | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
are commentator Newton Emerson and Dearbhail McDonald | :50:10. | :50:11. | |
from the Irish Independent. Newton, you wrote this week | :50:12. | :50:12. | |
about the "staggering sense "of entitlement this subject | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
provokes in Northern Ireland". Housing and racism, the two issues | :50:16. | :50:27. | |
have been bound inextricably recently. They are in extra to be | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
bound. -- in extremely bound. Immigrants have simply expose the | :50:32. | :50:45. | |
hypocrisy we have all taken on board. Alex Attwood was talking | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
about rights and equality and how outrageous this was, but his party | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
was welcoming a report that called for the building of single identity | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
areas in city centres rather than mixed areas. When you tell people | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
they have a right to housing and that is their to nudity that has the | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
right, of course you will get these -- community, of course you get | :51:14. | :51:23. | |
these attitudes. Seeing Peter Robinson, the most benign | :51:24. | :51:31. | |
interpretation you can have is that he had an extraordinary lapse of | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
judgement on a consistent basis. I think the ambiguity that he promoted | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
was actually to placate or to appease the people of East Belfast. | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
He is on a different message because she is essentially reassuring them | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
-- he is essentially reassuring them. I wonder if that is why he | :51:49. | :51:58. | |
created that ambiguity. He is the First Minister of this entire | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
jurisdiction and there is no room for racism at all. | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
The DUP MP Nigel Dodds has accused the Parades' Commission of being | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
characterised by weakness and caving in to the threat of violence. | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
He made his comments over the continuing row about | :52:12. | :52:13. | |
an Orange Order parade in North Belfast. | :52:14. | :52:15. | |
The Commission has prevented Ligoniel Orangemen from, | :52:16. | :52:17. | |
as they see it, completing last year's Twelfth Of July parade. | :52:18. | :52:19. | |
Even though local talks have been postponed, there are still hopes | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
that a last-minute agreement could be found. | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
Here's our Political Reporter, Stephen Walker. | :52:25. | :52:42. | |
What happens on the streets in the coming weeks may define Northern | :52:43. | :52:49. | |
Ireland's summer. The issue of parading is at the top of the | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
political agenda and the differences between the parties are as wide as | :52:54. | :53:02. | |
ever. For nearly 350 days, there has been a protest at this camp over a | :53:03. | :53:10. | |
ban to allow the order to complete their march. Some loyalists think | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
nationalists are being unreasonable. Although want to do is take and they | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
don't want any Orange feet on that land. We have been here for 37 | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
years. I have used those shops on a daily basis. The local discussions | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
have now been put on ice. The talks have been postponed it is | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
have now been put on ice. The talks reassessing their position. When you | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
talk, the Republicans seem to have a veto on the parades. Gerry Kelly was | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
also involved in talks aimed at brokering a deal. What the residents | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
have done is they have presented their view. We have not been able to | :53:54. | :54:04. | |
crack it yet. Have we made progress, yes we have. The best solution would | :54:05. | :54:13. | |
be if the Parades' Commission on the ground that they established last | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
year and the parameters of an acceptable compromise of the | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
afternoon parade not taking place because it has provoked a reaction | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
over a number of years, I think if the Parades' Commission was to stand | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
that ground, they would gain credibility for being consistent. | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
The DUP's Nigel Dodds says worries over violence have clearly | :54:36. | :54:37. | |
influenced the commission's thinking. What happened was we had | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
nationalist and republican politicians predicting a catastrophe | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
and we had people on the public and side -- on the Republican side... | :54:51. | :55:11. | |
That sends a bad message. Whatever the decisions are, the only issue is | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
around the Parades' Commission. I will disagree with at times but | :55:20. | :55:29. | |
there will be nothing else in place before the marching season. 12 | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
months on, there are hopes that last year's violent scenes will not be | :55:35. | :55:45. | |
repeated. We have proved that we are for peaceful protest. A year on, the | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
protest camp remains as does the key question, can politicians, the | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
Orange Order and residents find a compromise before the 4th of July? | :55:56. | :55:56. | |
-- the 12th of July. A spokesperson from the Parades' | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
Commission told this programme the Commission "believes that local | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
accommodation is the best way to "resolve complicated parading issues | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
and is mindful of the efforts "being made by many individuals | :56:10. | :56:11. | |
to resolve these matters." Let's hear more now from my guests | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
of the day, Dearbhail and Newton. Is the success of a recent march | :56:15. | :56:35. | |
important in your mind? Yes, but we have to be mindful that Robert -- | :56:36. | :56:45. | |
that Republicans will be testing the waters. The hearth process is going | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
nowhere. What is happening? People are talking past each other rather | :56:53. | :56:54. | |
than to each other. If we don't have that leadership at a high level, it | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
does not bode well for the future. Unless you get a Clinton or some | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
other figure or a good local solution for this chip, we won't. -- | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
for this year. For those of us watching us, it is the cost of this. | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
?11 million. Imagine if you apply that to housing strategy. | :57:17. | :57:17. | |
and have a look back at the week in 60 seconds, with Gareth Gordon. | :57:18. | :57:26. | |
As a move by a Stormont committee to punish Gerry Kelly over this is | :57:27. | :57:40. | |
blocked by somebody's, there is this reaction. Order! Order! I will | :57:41. | :57:48. | |
remind members of the language they use in the chamber. But all smiles | :57:49. | :57:57. | |
here. There is reputational damage because of our past. We want people | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
to think of Northern Ireland and then think of golf. The police | :58:02. | :58:10. | |
ombudsman say there was no evidence that the police knew of a plot to | :58:11. | :58:19. | |
kill Gerry Adams 30 years ago. It is not Brazil, it is Northern Ireland. | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
They captured the mood for community relations week. | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
A final thought from Dearbhail and Newton. | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
and we know the Queen will meet Martin McGuinness again. | :58:34. | :58:42. | |
These events are really important, they are important but they have to | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
be supplemented by real political leadership because there is no | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
substitute for that. These events with the Queen are important but | :58:54. | :59:02. | |
they are no replacement for proper government. The Queen and Martin | :59:03. | :59:11. | |
McGuinness into getting along. This one will highlight the fact that it | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
is a Unionist gesture. That's it from me - | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
back to Andrew in London. and they will be obliged to tell | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
you. Thanks for joining us. Andrew, back to you. | :59:25. | :59:41. | |
think you'd want to. Labour grandees are not queueing up to sing his | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
praises. Look at this. In my view, he is the leader we have and he is | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
the leader I support and he is somebody capable of leading the | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
party to victory. Ed Miliband will leave this to victory, and I believe | :59:56. | :00:02. | |
he can. If he doesn't, what would happen to the Labour Party? We could | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
be in the wilderness for 15 years. At the moment he has to convince | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
people he has the capacity to lead the country. That's not my view, but | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
people don't believe that. We had a leader of the Labour Party was | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
publicly embarrassed, because whoever was in charge of press | :00:20. | :00:26. | |
letting go through a process where we have councillors in Merseyside | :00:27. | :00:35. | |
resigning. It was a schoolboy error. Having policies without them being | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
drawn together into a convincing and vivid narrative and with what you do | :00:40. | :00:49. | |
the people in the country. You have to draw together, connect the | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
policies, link them back to the leader and give people a real sense | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
of where you are going. Somehow he has never quite managed to be | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
himself and create that identity with the public. And we are joined | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
by the president of you girls, Peter Kellner. Welcome to the Sunday | :01:14. | :01:24. | |
politics. -- YouGov. The Labour Party is six points ahead in your | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
poll this morning. So what is the problem? On this basis he will win | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
the next election. If the election were today and the figures held up, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
you would have a Labour government with a narrow overall majority. One | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
should not forget that. Let me make three points. The first is, in past | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
parliaments, opposition normally lose ground and governments gain | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
ground in the final few months. The opposition should be further ahead | :01:54. | :01:54. | |
than this. I opposition should be further ahead | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
enough. Secondly, Ed Miliband is opposition should be further ahead | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
behind David Cameron when people are asked who they want as Prime | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Minister and Labour is asked who they want as Prime | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
Conservatives went people are asked who they trust on the economy. There | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
have been elections when the party has won by being behind on | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
leadership and other elections where they have won by being behind on the | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
economy. No party has ever won an election when it has been clearly | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
behind on both leadership and the economy. Let me have another go. The | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
Labour Party brand is a strong brand. The Tory Bramleys | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
Labour Party brand is a strong Labour brand is stronger. That is a | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
blast -- the Labour -- the Tory Bramleys week. A lot of the | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
blast -- the Labour -- the Tory -- the Tory brand is weak. Cant you | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
win on policies and a strong party brand? If you have those too, | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
win on policies and a strong party need the third factor which | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
win on policies and a strong party have what it | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
win on policies and a strong party skills, determination, | :03:02. | :03:02. | |
win on policies and a strong party determination, whatever makes to | :03:03. | :03:03. | |
carry through. determination, whatever makes to | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
lot of Ed Miliband policies, on determination, whatever makes to | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
banks, energy prices, Brent controls, people like them. | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
banks, energy prices, Brent government, would they carry them | :03:18. | :03:18. | |
banks, energy prices, Brent through? They think they are not up | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
to it. -- rent controls. If people think you won't deliver what you | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
say, even if they like it, they were necessarily vote for you. That is | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
the missing third element. There is a strong Labour brand, but it's not | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
strong enough to overcome the feeling that the Labour leadership | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
is not up to it. Nick, you had some senior Labour figure telling you | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
that if Mr Miliband losing the next election he will have to resign | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
immediately and cannot fight another election the way Neil Kinnock did | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
after 1987. What was remarkable to me was that people were even | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
thinking along these lines, and even more remarkable that they would tell | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
you they were thinking along these lines? What is the problem? The | :04:03. | :04:10. | |
problem is, is that Ed Miliband says it would be unprecedented to win the | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
general election after the second worst result since 1918. They are | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
concerned about is the start of a script that he would say on the day | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
after losing the general election. Essentially what the people are | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
trying to do is get their argument in first and to say, you cannot do | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
what Neil Kinnock did in 1987. Don't forget that Neil Kinnock in 1987 was | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
in the middle of a very brave process of modernisation and had one | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
and fought a very campaign that was professional but he lost again in | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
1992, and they wanted to get their line in first. What some people are | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
saying is that this is an election that the Labour Party should be | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
winning because the coalition is so unpopular. If you don't win, I'm | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
afraid to say, there is something wrong with you. Don't you find it | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
remarkable that people are prepared to think along these lines at this | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
stage, when Labour are ahead in the polls, still the bookies favourite | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
to win, and you start to speak publicly, or in private to the | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
public print, but we might have to get rid of him if he doesn't win. | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Everything you say about labour in this situation has been said about | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
the Tories. We wondered whether Boris Johnson would tie himself to | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
the mask and he is the next leader in waiting if Cameron goes. It's a | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
mirror image of that. We talk about things being unprecedented. It's | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
unprecedented for a government to gain seats. All the things you say | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
about labour, you could say it the Conservatives. That's what makes the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
next election so interesting. But in the aftermath of the European | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
elections and the local government elections, in which the | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
Conservatives did not do that well, the issue was not Mr Cameron or the | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
Tories doing well, the issue was the Labour Party and how they had not | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
done as well as they should have done, and that conversation was | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
fuelled by the kind of people who have been speaking to nick from the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
Labour Party. Rachel Reeves cited their real-life performance in | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
elections as a reason for optimism. When in fact their performance in | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
the Europeans and locals was disappointing for an opposition one | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
year away from a general election. What alarms me about labour is the | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
way they react to criticisms about Ed Miliband. Two years ago when he | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
was attacked, they said they were 15 points ahead, and then a year ago | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
there were saying they were nine or ten ahead, and now they are saying | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
we are still five or six ahead. The trend is alarming. It points to a | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
smaller Labour lead. Am I right in detecting a bit of a class war going | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
on in the Labour Party? There are a lot of northern Labour MPs who think | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
that Ed Miliband is to north London, and there are too many metropolitan | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
cronies around him must I think that is right, Andrew. What I think is, | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
being a pessimist in terms of their prospects, I do think the Labour | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
Party could win the next election. I just don't think they can as they | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
are going at the moment. But the positioning for a possible defeat, | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
what they should be talking about is what do we need to change in the | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
party and the way Ed Miliband performs in order to secure victory. | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
That is a debate they could have, and they could make the changes. I | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
find it odd that they are being so defeatist. Don't go away. Peter is a | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
boffin when it comes to polls. That is why we have a mod for the | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
election prediction swings and roundabouts. He is looking for what | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
he calls the incumbency effect. Don't know what is a back-up -- what | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
that's about question don't worry, here is an. Being in office is bad | :07:44. | :07:52. | |
for your health. Political folk wisdom has it that incumbency | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
favours one party in particular, the Liberal Democrats. That is because | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
their MPs have a reputation as ferociously good local campaigners | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
who do really well at holding on to their seats. However, this time | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
round, several big-name long serving Liberal Democrats like Ming | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
Campbell, David Heath and Don Foster are standing down. Does that mean | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
the incumbency effect disappears like a puff of smoke? Then there is | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
another theory, called the sophomore surge. It might sound like a movie | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
about US college kids, but it goes like this. New MPs tend to do better | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
in their second election than they did in their first. That could | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
favour the Tories because they have lots of first-time MPs. The big | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
question is, what does this mean for the 7th of May 2015, the date of the | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
next general election? The answer is, who knows? I know a man who | :08:46. | :08:56. | |
knows. Peter. What does it all mean? You can go onto your PC now and draw | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
down programmes which say that these are the voting figures from a | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
national poll, so what will the seats look like? This is based on | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
uniform swing. Every seat moving up and down across the country in the | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
same way. Historically, that's been a pretty good guide. I think that's | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
going to completely break down next year, because the Lib Dems will | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
probably hold on to more seats than we predict from the national figures | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
and I think fewer Tory seats will go to the Labour Party than you would | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
predict from the national figures. The precise numbers, I'm not going | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
to be too precise, but I would be surprised, sorry, I would not be | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
surprised if Labour fell 20 or 25 seats short on what we would expect | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
on the uniform swing prediction. Next year's election will be tight. | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
Falling 20 seats short could well mean the difference between victory | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
and defeat. What you make of that, Helen? I think you're right, | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
especially taking into account the UKIP effect. We have no idea about | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
that. The conventional wisdom is that will drain away back to the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
Conservatives, but nobody knows, and it makes the next election almost | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
impossible to call. It means it is a great target the people like Lord | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
Ashcroft with marginal great target the people like Lord | :10:17. | :10:18. | |
because people have never been so interested. It is for party politics | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
and we all assume that UKIP should be well next year, but their vote | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
went up from 17 up to 27%. Then that 17% went | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
went up from 17 up to 27%. Then that only be five or 6% in the general | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
election, so they might not have the threat of depriving Conservatives of | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
their seats. Where the incumbency thing has an effect | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
their seats. Where the incumbency Democrats. They have fortress | :10:46. | :10:46. | |
their seats. Where the incumbency where between 1992 and 1997 Liberal | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
Democrats seats fell, but their percentage went up. They are losing | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
the local government base though. True, but having people like Ming | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
Campbell standing down means they will struggle. | :10:59. | :10:59. | |
Campbell standing down means they incumbency being an important factor | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
in American politics. It's hard to get rid of an incumbent unless it is | :11:06. | :11:07. | |
a primary election, like get rid of an incumbent unless it is | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
important factor in British politics, that if you own the seat | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
you're more likely to hold on politics, that if you own the seat | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
than not? If it is, that's a remarkable thing. It's hard to be a | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
carpetbagger in America, but it is normal in British Parliamentary | :11:26. | :11:26. | |
constituencies to be represented normal in British Parliamentary | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
someone who did not grow up locally. normal in British Parliamentary | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
It is a special kind of achievement to have an incumbency effect where | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
you don't have deep roots in the constituency. I was going to ask | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
about the Lib Dems. If we are wrong, and they collapse in Parliamentary | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
representation as much as the share in vote collapses, is that not good | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
news is that the Conservatives? They would | :11:48. | :11:49. | |
news is that the Conservatives? They majority of existing Lib Dems seats. | :11:50. | :11:51. | |
For majority of existing Lib Dems seats. | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
second to the Lib Dems, there are two where the Conservatives are | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
second. If the Lib Dem representation collapses, that helps | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
the Conservatives. I'm assuming the Tories will gain about ten seats. If | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
they gain 20, if they'd had 20 more seats last time, they would have had | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
a majority government, just about. So 20 seats off the Lib Dem, do the | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
maths, as they say in America, and they could lose a handful to labour | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
and still be able to run a one party, minority government. The fate | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
of the Lib Dems could party, minority government. The fate | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
the outcome to the politics of light. On the 8th of May, it will be | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
VE Day and victory in election day as well as Europe. The Lib Dems will | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
be apoplectic if they lose all of the seats to their coalition | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
partners. The great quote by Angela Merkel, the little party always gets | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
crushed. It's a well-established idea that coalition politics. They | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
can't take credit for the things people like you may get lumbered | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
with the ones they don't. They have contributed most of this terrible | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
idea that seized politics where you say it, but you don't deliver it. | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
Tuition fees is the classic example of this Parliament. Why should you | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
believe any promise you make? And Ed Miliband is feeling that as well. | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
But in 1974 the liberal Democrats barely had any MPs but there were | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
reporters outside Jeremy Thorpe's home because they potentially held | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
not the balance of power, but were significantly in fourth. Bringing | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
back memories Jeremy Thorpe, and we will leave it there. Thanks to the | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
panel. We are tomorrow on BBC Two. At the earlier time of 11am because | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
of Wimbledon. Yes, it's that time of year again already. I will be back | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
here at 11 o'clock next week. Remember, if it is Sunday, it is the | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
Sunday Politics. | :13:43. | :13:46. |