17/01/2016 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


17/01/2016

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 17/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Was former London Mayor Ken Livingstone booted off

:00:39.:00:44.

Or, as Mr Livingstone claims, did he step down

:00:45.:00:50.

because he is at one on all defence matters with this lady,

:00:51.:00:53.

Labour's new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry.

:00:54.:00:55.

Like Mr Livingstone she's not a fan of Britain's

:00:56.:00:57.

David Cameron has a plan to deliver some "rabbits from the hat"

:00:58.:01:03.

Another campaign group has entered the fray on his side,

:01:04.:01:11.

As the battle hots up we'll be talking to a man who wants out,

:01:12.:01:17.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and a man who wants to stay in,

:01:18.:01:20.

Donald Trump and his former chum Alex Salmond have spent

:01:21.:01:24.

The wannabe American President thinks Mr Salmond's

:01:25.:01:28.

an embarrassement to his country. pledged to demolish sink estates.

:01:29.:01:46.

What will it mean to communities in the capital?

:01:47.:01:52.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:53.:01:55.

I won't have a nasty word said against them.

:01:56.:01:58.

Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting

:01:59.:02:00.

So first today let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn,

:02:01.:02:12.

who gave a wide-ranging interview on the Marr show a little earlier.

:02:13.:02:15.

My question, with respect, was about sympathy action

:02:16.:02:17.

and whether you would remove that legislation.

:02:18.:02:18.

Sympathy action is legal in most other countries and I think it

:02:19.:02:21.

should also be legal here. But remember this...

:02:22.:02:23.

So you would repeal those Tory laws?

:02:24.:02:25.

Yes, of course. Nobody willingly goes on strike.

:02:26.:02:27.

They go on strike as an ultimate weapon.

:02:28.:02:29.

The number of strikes is actually very small.

:02:30.:02:31.

It's an ultimate weapon that is used.

:02:32.:02:32.

Anyone that is going on strike is making an enormous sacrifice.

:02:33.:02:35.

They don't get paid, they suffer a great deal as a result

:02:36.:02:38.

of it, so let's look at the causes of people being upset rather

:02:39.:02:41.

A policy packed interview with Andrew Marr on the Falklands,

:02:42.:02:58.

Islamic State, secondary striking, even on the idea maybe we could keep

:02:59.:03:04.

Trident but not any missile warheads on the missiles. I felt nostalgic. I

:03:05.:03:11.

was back to a teenager in the 1980s, I remember these arguments in the

:03:12.:03:16.

1980s and Michael foot put them in the manifesto for the 1983 election.

:03:17.:03:22.

He was robust on the Falkland Islands. He was. The point for

:03:23.:03:31.

Jeremy Corbyn is he has a mandate from the party to put forward these

:03:32.:03:36.

arguments. He had a 60% vote and it is clear what he thinks of nuclear

:03:37.:03:43.

weapons. He has been a member of CND since 1966. The challenge for Jeremy

:03:44.:03:47.

Corbyn is to put forward ideas in a way that appeals beyond new members

:03:48.:03:52.

of the Labour Party to the electorate as a whole who have

:03:53.:03:58.

concerns about security of the nation, for example, possibly having

:03:59.:04:01.

successor submarines of the Trident system without nuclear weapons. That

:04:02.:04:06.

is the Japanese system, they talk in Japan how they have what is known as

:04:07.:04:12.

the bomb in the basement. They are a non-declared nuclear state but could

:04:13.:04:15.

arm themselves with nuclear weapons within minutes if needed. That is

:04:16.:04:18.

what he is talking about. Sounds good in the leg party but he needs

:04:19.:04:22.

to sell it to the country as a whole. It is clear a lot of what

:04:23.:04:29.

Jeremy Corbyn says has the support of the grassroots, particularly the

:04:30.:04:33.

new ones who have joined the party. It is clear a lot of this does not

:04:34.:04:37.

have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party. That is

:04:38.:04:41.

the constant problem yet to be squared. I cannot see a way it will

:04:42.:04:47.

be squared. I do not think many Labour MPs can either. His problem

:04:48.:04:53.

is admirable, it is he is determined not to remove himself from things

:04:54.:04:57.

said in the past. On the Falklands he is consistent with what he said

:04:58.:05:03.

in 2013, when it did not matter, and how he is now repeating those views.

:05:04.:05:08.

The problem is now Jeremy Corbyn matters and if you look at the

:05:09.:05:12.

Falklands, the last time there was a vote of those on the Falkland

:05:13.:05:17.

Islands, only three voted to change the system of administration, so he

:05:18.:05:20.

is out of step with people living there. He sets out his left-wing

:05:21.:05:28.

stall on these issues. Bit by bit, he is taking his time, doing it

:05:29.:05:34.

astutely. He is taking the lead party in his direction, part of the

:05:35.:05:36.

purpose I would suggest of the interview will stop no one could

:05:37.:05:47.

question that. If you go into a general election with a leader who

:05:48.:05:50.

says something like, let's have the return of secondary picketing, and

:05:51.:05:57.

that is not the worst idea in the manifesto, also talking about

:05:58.:06:01.

renewing the vanguard submarines without warheads and I think he

:06:02.:06:04.

floated the idea of reasonable accommodation with Argentina on the

:06:05.:06:07.

Falklands, he would go to the election knowing you have a white,

:06:08.:06:12.

working-class base, which is already flirting with Ukip. How low can

:06:13.:06:19.

Labour Singh? Technically it is impossible to get rid of him but

:06:20.:06:23.

maybe politics is like water and finds a way to go around obstacles.

:06:24.:06:27.

And if his ideas turn out to be popular? I think they will be

:06:28.:06:33.

popular with the membership at every general election since 1983 would

:06:34.:06:38.

suggest to us these ideas are outside the mainstream. Jeremy

:06:39.:06:42.

Corbyn says there is a new world out there, I tapped into that in the

:06:43.:06:46.

campaign, with thousands packing up meetings. We have the electoral test

:06:47.:06:51.

in May, let's see how the ideas go down outside the party. Should

:06:52.:06:58.

written keep its nuclear deterrent? -- Great Britain.

:06:59.:07:02.

Jeremy Corbyn doesn't think so and neither

:07:03.:07:03.

does his new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry,

:07:04.:07:05.

who we'll be talking to in just a minute.

:07:06.:07:07.

But first here's Adam on a multi-billion-pound question.

:07:08.:07:10.

The Imperial War Museum is showing the work of artist Peter Kennard,

:07:11.:07:16.

the creator of some of the starkest images of the campaign

:07:17.:07:19.

This was in 1980, this is when cruise missiles were coming

:07:20.:07:31.

to Britain and the idea was they were going to circulate

:07:32.:07:34.

It's coming back into fashion because some time this year

:07:35.:07:37.

the Government is expected to hold a Parliamentary vote

:07:38.:07:41.

on whether to build a new generation of submarines to carry

:07:42.:07:44.

The issue is dogging Labour, as Jeremy Corbyn made his first

:07:45.:07:51.

speech of the year at the Fabian's campaign group conference.

:07:52.:07:54.

I thank you very much for inviting me here today.

:07:55.:07:56.

Jeremy Corbyn's speech focused on energy, Europe, rail prices...

:07:57.:08:03.

no mention of Trident, which he has campaigned

:08:04.:08:05.

The issue is - not all of his MPs agree with him.

:08:06.:08:12.

My view at the moment is that the case in favour

:08:13.:08:14.

of retaining is stronger than the case against,

:08:15.:08:17.

but I think it's important we review this and look at all the options.

:08:18.:08:21.

I'm in favour of keeping our nuclear deterrent.

:08:22.:08:23.

I think it's important for keeping our country safe.

:08:24.:08:25.

It's Labour Party policy, I hope it will stay that way.

:08:26.:08:27.

Have you had an argument with Jeremy about it yet?

:08:28.:08:30.

Definitely arguing with Jeremy this week, the boss of the GMB union,

:08:31.:08:33.

who says building new subs will safeguard thousands of jobs

:08:34.:08:36.

in places like Barrow, where they're built.

:08:37.:08:41.

If anybody thinks that unions like the GMB are going to go quietly

:08:42.:08:44.

into the night while tens of thousands of our members' jobs

:08:45.:08:48.

are literally swaneed away by rhetoric, then they have

:08:49.:08:50.

Meet the woman who's got to reconcile the two tribes,

:08:51.:08:58.

the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, a critic

:08:59.:09:01.

of Trident who's doing the party's defence review.

:09:02.:09:05.

But it's turning into a row about how Labour makes policy.

:09:06.:09:10.

On one side, the people who feel the decision should be made by

:09:11.:09:13.

We have a national policy forum, we have a process where the papers

:09:14.:09:20.

go to our conference and are voted on.

:09:21.:09:23.

They involve trade unionists, they involve affiliated

:09:24.:09:28.

John Landsman, who campaigns for a bigger role for party

:09:29.:09:35.

activists and founded the Corbynite group Momentum,

:09:36.:09:37.

I'm not convinced the Government has to have a vote at all,

:09:38.:09:44.

but if it decides to have a vote we obviously need to have taken some

:09:45.:09:48.

soundings among party members and affiliates about what they think

:09:49.:09:50.

So, Labour Party policy on Trident could change by the summer?

:09:51.:09:54.

We will have had some process to consider our policy

:09:55.:09:57.

before the summer, yes, obviously, we have to.

:09:58.:10:02.

So Labour Party policy, when it comes to a vote,

:10:03.:10:06.

by the summer could be voting against the renewal of Trident?

:10:07.:10:11.

Look, I know that you're trying to get me to say very briefly,

:10:12.:10:16.

you know, something very quick about how policy is made

:10:17.:10:20.

in our party, the trouble is it's quite a complex process.

:10:21.:10:24.

Policy is ultimately decided by party conference

:10:25.:10:26.

in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party but if we have to take quicker

:10:27.:10:29.

decisions, we have to do it by other methods.

:10:30.:10:40.

That might drive some Labour people into meltdown.

:10:41.:10:43.

It could be war, not just over whether Labour supports the renewal

:10:44.:10:45.

of Trident, but also who gets to make the decision.

:10:46.:10:53.

And with me now, the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry.

:10:54.:10:56.

Welcome. Did you drop Ken Livingstone from the defence review?

:10:57.:11:08.

No, it was going to be my review and when I spoke to Jeremy about it I

:11:09.:11:13.

said it was an honour to take an extraordinary job, to be able to

:11:14.:11:16.

shadow a department where people are prepared to put their lives on the

:11:17.:11:21.

line. Was he part of the defence review already? I said I would lead

:11:22.:11:26.

the review and it will be my review, and it will feed into international

:11:27.:11:31.

policy commission, co-chaired by Ken Livingstone, which will feed into

:11:32.:11:41.

the national policy forum which will then feed into party conference. Mr

:11:42.:11:43.

Livingstone said on defence matters he had lunch with you and you agree

:11:44.:11:46.

on everything on the defence side and so voluntarily stepped aside, is

:11:47.:11:51.

that true? I am a big fan of Ken Livingstone, that is not a secret, I

:11:52.:11:56.

am also against Trident. I come in as a sceptic and also with the

:11:57.:12:01.

ambition to listen to what people say, to be not afraid to ask

:12:02.:12:05.

difficult questions and to come to a view on policy on the basis of

:12:06.:12:13.

evidence. Did he step aside because you broadly agreed on defence

:12:14.:12:16.

matters? Jeremy Corbyn put me in charge of the review and that is

:12:17.:12:20.

what happened. Did Mr Livingstone step aside as he said? He is chair

:12:21.:12:26.

of the commission I will be feeding my review into. I understand. Do you

:12:27.:12:31.

agree on everything when it comes to defence? I agree with a lot Ken

:12:32.:12:36.

Livingstone says but I do not agree we should pull out of Nato and I

:12:37.:12:41.

will not review this on the basis of us changing any international

:12:42.:12:45.

agreements or organisations we are signed up to. The review will take

:12:46.:12:50.

place within the context of our continued membership of Nato? That

:12:51.:12:55.

is right. On Trident? Ken Livingstone is against renewing

:12:56.:13:01.

Trident. That has been your position. I think the days of

:13:02.:13:05.

unilateral, multilateral, all of this sort of thing is from the

:13:06.:13:11.

1980s. We should look at what are the 21st-century threats to Britain

:13:12.:13:14.

and how should we best address them? It seems that is the best way to do

:13:15.:13:18.

it, look at the threats and what is the best way of addressing that.

:13:19.:13:24.

What I am more than anything is a moderniser. You voted against

:13:25.:13:31.

renewal of Trident in 2007. Do you know what, in the 80s, I was in

:13:32.:13:36.

favour of Trident because there were two macro sides, life was different,

:13:37.:13:41.

but life has moved on since 2007. Certainly since the 1980s, and I

:13:42.:13:46.

think the time has come for us to have a debate about what the

:13:47.:13:50.

21st-century threats are, which includes whether or not it is the

:13:51.:13:56.

appropriate response. What would change your mind? What could you be

:13:57.:14:00.

told about Trident that would make you think we should keep it? Good

:14:01.:14:07.

try. I have had this job a couple of days and want to go into it with an

:14:08.:14:14.

open mind and look at evidence. You are against Trident? I am in favour

:14:15.:14:18.

of making policy on the basis of evidence put before me and I have

:14:19.:14:23.

had a large number of invitations to talk to people and pick their

:14:24.:14:26.

brains. I want to be able to do that and bring the party with me. Are you

:14:27.:14:34.

against drone strikes? No, I think in the future the role of drones is

:14:35.:14:41.

likely to increase, under the sea and for air strikes. When you were

:14:42.:14:49.

shadow Attorney General, did you question the legality under

:14:50.:14:52.

international law? This is quite difficult, because the advice I gave

:14:53.:14:56.

to the leaders... You have got that wrong. I was asking a question.

:14:57.:15:05.

Have you questioned their legality or not? There is a difference

:15:06.:15:12.

between their use and bare existence so therefore... I'm so sorry but

:15:13.:15:16.

it's legally privileged and I cannot talk about advice I gave to the

:15:17.:15:21.

leader. All right but you can talk to the electorate. Would you support

:15:22.:15:29.

the use of drone strikes? I would support the use of whatever means

:15:30.:15:32.

are necessary to keep the British people safe. Including drone

:15:33.:15:38.

strikes? Yes, within the confines of the law. Do you have an end date

:15:39.:15:44.

when you think you have got to have the review done by? No, I don't want

:15:45.:15:50.

the strategic review to be anything like the Tories' which was very

:15:51.:15:55.

short. They opened a website and only allowed people to put 200 words

:15:56.:16:00.

in and in my view didn't look at it properly so it will take as long as

:16:01.:16:07.

it takes. I have a lot to look at. I understand, we have a lot of ground

:16:08.:16:11.

to cover and we don't have a lot of time this morning. In the meantime

:16:12.:16:16.

it's almost certain there will be a major vote on Trident, which begins

:16:17.:16:20.

the real spending on the renewal some time in the spring. What will

:16:21.:16:26.

happen to Labour? Will you be whipped to vote in favour of current

:16:27.:16:31.

party policy, which is pro-Trident? Will you be encouraging to -- people

:16:32.:16:40.

to vote against it? The first question is, are they going to have

:16:41.:16:45.

a vote, are they going to have a vote in the spring, and what will

:16:46.:16:50.

the vote be? Will we have the Treasury and the MoD agreeing? If

:16:51.:16:58.

there is a main gate proposal, comes forward to the Commons, how will you

:16:59.:17:03.

vote? The rumour is they are not going to have anything more than

:17:04.:17:07.

another vote in principle on whether or not we should renew Trident.

:17:08.:17:11.

Pro-Trident people should be angry about that because we had a vote

:17:12.:17:16.

about that in 2007, what have they been doing all this time? Labour

:17:17.:17:21.

policy is to have a continual artsy deterrent but to have a review. We

:17:22.:17:25.

are in the process of having a review, we need to look at when the

:17:26.:17:36.

vote is, what it is about, then I will have a discussion with Jeremy

:17:37.:17:39.

and the Chief Whip and did -- decision will be made. Jeremy has

:17:40.:17:41.

said he wants macro to accommodate differences in views and I have said

:17:42.:17:45.

my review has got to be done in an atmosphere of trust and respect. So

:17:46.:17:51.

it will be a free vote. What do you say to those who say when it comes

:17:52.:17:55.

to the Trident part of the defence review that it is a sham, that you

:17:56.:18:01.

have replaced Maria Eagle who was pro-Trident. Your leader is a

:18:02.:18:06.

lifelong unilateral disarmament. The party grass roots is increasingly

:18:07.:18:10.

hostile to Trident, so the chances of this recommending anything other

:18:11.:18:16.

than don't renew Trident is pretty impossible. I will begin this review

:18:17.:18:20.

by looking at the threat to Britain because my overriding responsibility

:18:21.:18:27.

is to make sure it is in line with what keeps Britain safe. We will

:18:28.:18:33.

take it as the evidence takes us. That is how we will approach it.

:18:34.:18:37.

Jeremy has already said, he said in the last few days that it may be

:18:38.:18:41.

this won't be a binary decision, things are not must rarely black and

:18:42.:18:46.

white any more, we are not going to the 1980s. What do you make of this

:18:47.:18:51.

idea that he floated on the Andrew Marr Show this morning that we could

:18:52.:18:56.

maybe renew Trident but not put warheads on the missiles? The

:18:57.:19:00.

Japanese option, that is certainly one thing that needs to be looked

:19:01.:19:07.

at. What would be the point? I'm not saying this is what we are going to

:19:08.:19:11.

do, but the way that it works is that the Japanese have got the

:19:12.:19:15.

capability to build a nuclear bomb if they need to, but you can then

:19:16.:19:24.

use them in various delivery forms. That's a possibility, it is an

:19:25.:19:29.

option. So you put the eventual warheads onto Trident submarines?

:19:30.:19:36.

Trident missiles? I appreciate that you want me to speculate and I

:19:37.:19:41.

understand that. Your leader spoke about it this morning. I have said

:19:42.:19:49.

there are of options. When you file a ballistic missile at a country,

:19:50.:19:53.

every early warning ballistic missile system will assume that is

:19:54.:19:57.

an attack because ballistic missile is only carry nuclear weapons so we

:19:58.:20:02.

will risk retaliation for something that is not using nuclear weapons,

:20:03.:20:10.

isn't that very dangerous? You are welcome to take part in my review. I

:20:11.:20:17.

am a kind of busy on the day job. Do you think the party membership

:20:18.:20:23.

should determine Trident policy, not just be consulting on it, which I

:20:24.:20:26.

know you'll want to do, but should they determined in the end such

:20:27.:20:31.

important issue? Party conference will decide what our policy is. I

:20:32.:20:36.

would like to have a review that will have party members feeding into

:20:37.:20:40.

it, feeding into their views in a way we have not had before and I

:20:41.:20:45.

will encourage that. You weren't in the end have a vote among party

:20:46.:20:49.

members to determine your policy? Our rules are that party conference

:20:50.:20:55.

decides our policy. Do you think you will have your ducks in a row by the

:20:56.:21:04.

time of this year's party conference? If I can help the

:21:05.:21:10.

national policy Forum by doing an interim report, I will do so. What

:21:11.:21:14.

do you say to the trade union leaders who say you will put

:21:15.:21:17.

thousands of jobs at risk if you don't renew Trident? I say I will

:21:18.:21:23.

listen to what they say and I will look at whether there are other

:21:24.:21:29.

alternatives. I understand, and I fully respect the concerns that have

:21:30.:21:34.

been raised so we need to look at whether there are solutions to that.

:21:35.:21:39.

You have taken substantial donations from a law firm that support clients

:21:40.:21:43.

that took the British Army to court on what turned out to be deliberate

:21:44.:21:50.

and miscalculated lies, holy and entirely without merit, where the

:21:51.:21:54.

accusations against the army. Should you return that? What happened was

:21:55.:22:05.

that Lee Day seconded people to my office because when your shadow

:22:06.:22:08.

Attorney General you don't have any resources at all. You didn't get

:22:09.:22:19.

?14,500 in donations? No, so I got very good bright lawyers and I have

:22:20.:22:22.

returned all of them and they were very good and they helped us be a

:22:23.:22:28.

good opposition. So there is no money to return? There is no money

:22:29.:22:33.

to return and it was a pleasure to have them in my office, they were

:22:34.:22:37.

very helpful to the Labour Party and interned to the country. We were

:22:38.:22:41.

summarising legislation, helping with clauses, giving advice to the

:22:42.:22:48.

leaders' office. Unfortunately the Government will now even cut the

:22:49.:22:59.

money. Will you come back when your review is complete? Any time. We

:23:00.:23:03.

will hold you to that. Now to the European Union

:23:04.:23:05.

and Britain's membership of it. George Osborne appeared

:23:06.:23:08.

quietly confident this week about the Government's chances

:23:09.:23:09.

of impressing voters with the deal it gets from Brussels,

:23:10.:23:12.

and even the European President, Jean-Claude Junker, appeared more

:23:13.:23:14.

upbeat about the prospects Not good news for

:23:15.:23:16.

those who want out? But they'll be buoyed by one poll

:23:17.:23:19.

this morning that puts the "out" This morning there's news of another

:23:20.:23:23.

group on the pro-EU campaign trail. The question may be fairly simple

:23:24.:23:27.

but there are rather a lot of different campaigns

:23:28.:23:37.

trying to bend our ears. On the side of those

:23:38.:23:39.

who want us out of the EU, there's the Vote Leave campaign

:23:40.:23:42.

headed by Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott,

:23:43.:23:48.

who ran the successful They're also linked

:23:49.:23:49.

to Business For Britain, which has the support of a number

:23:50.:23:53.

of leading business figures, and to the groups Labour Leave

:23:54.:23:57.

and Conservatives For Britain, Also campaigning for Brexit

:23:58.:24:00.

is Leave.EU, which has links to Ukip and is funded by the Ukip donor

:24:01.:24:05.

Arron Banks. They're vying with the Vote Leave

:24:06.:24:10.

campaign to be the officially And to top it all, there is now Go,

:24:11.:24:12.

a new grass-roots group made up of MPs including Kate Hoey

:24:13.:24:26.

and David Davis which is designed to coordinate campaigning

:24:27.:24:29.

on the ground. On the other side, the main group

:24:30.:24:30.

is the Britain Stronger In Europe, headed by the former Marks

:24:31.:24:33.

Spencer's boss Sir Stuart Rose. Then there's Business

:24:34.:24:36.

For New Europe, led by Roland Rudd, Labour Yes, led by Alan Johnson,

:24:37.:24:39.

and now there's a new group set up by the Tory MP Nick Herbert,

:24:40.:24:42.

called Conservatives Even though some of the members

:24:43.:24:44.

are Eurosceptics, they say they will support David Cameron's

:24:45.:24:51.

renegotiation and will vote to remain inside the EU

:24:52.:24:54.

if he's successful. Expect a few leaflets

:24:55.:24:57.

through your door in the next And with us now is the Ukip

:24:58.:25:00.

leader, Nigel Farage. With even staunch Eurosceptic MPs

:25:01.:25:18.

like Nick Herbert campaigning to stay in, don't you worry the tide of

:25:19.:25:24.

opinion is moving away from you and tour was David Cameron? I would

:25:25.:25:28.

never regard Nick Herbert as a staunch Eurosceptic. He campaigned

:25:29.:25:37.

to keep the pound, he was paid to do it. He has never once advocated

:25:38.:25:47.

Britain should leave the EU so he is doing a job bolstering the Prime

:25:48.:25:52.

Minister. There was lots of speculation, will Boris Johnson back

:25:53.:25:56.

the outcome pain? What do you think? I don't know. Not Michael Gove, we

:25:57.:26:05.

know now. I suspect lots of senior politicians will put their careers

:26:06.:26:10.

before their conscience and back the Prime Minister. I am beginning to

:26:11.:26:16.

see this referendum as the people versus the politicians, it might not

:26:17.:26:21.

matter. Except your own side continues to be riven by

:26:22.:26:26.

factionalism. We have vote to leave, Leave.EU, and they seem to be

:26:27.:26:29.

spending more time attacking each other than the common enemy. You

:26:30.:26:36.

have these groups vying to be the official bumbler group. I've been

:26:37.:26:40.

trying to support both of the organisations, though I have to say

:26:41.:26:43.

when I listen to Dominic Cummings on Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I

:26:44.:26:52.

believe. Yes, and suddenly they are talking about a two referendum

:26:53.:26:56.

strategy which I don't like the look of one little bit. Why not? The

:26:57.:27:05.

argue was, we can vote to come out and then Europe will panic and make

:27:06.:27:11.

us an offer which will be effectively associated membership

:27:12.:27:15.

and we could vote on that. We effectively have that now, we had

:27:16.:27:20.

that since the euro was created. Dan Harmon has criticised every

:27:21.:27:22.

government that has lost a referendum. After the interview I

:27:23.:27:32.

saw the other day I wasn't sure. There is now a third group called

:27:33.:27:40.

Go. It does lend itself to jokes about the Judaean people's struggle.

:27:41.:27:47.

The point about Go is that it is there to break the deadlock, and

:27:48.:27:52.

next Saturday there will be Conservatives, Labour, Ukip and DUP

:27:53.:27:56.

sharing a public platform. There's a big auditorium with 2000 people

:27:57.:28:01.

coming and we will start the ground campaign in earnest. Should Vote

:28:02.:28:08.

Leave and Leave.EU amalgamate? Of course. Leave.EU are brilliant at

:28:09.:28:14.

mass-marketing. Vote Leave are Westminster -based group of people

:28:15.:28:18.

with some fantastic links to the business community, some great

:28:19.:28:22.

academic back-up. They would be complimentary, not contradictory.

:28:23.:28:26.

Meanwhile, as you still struggle to get a united front, if I can put it

:28:27.:28:31.

like that, perhaps the United front of the Judaean people's struggle...

:28:32.:28:39.

I would suggest from the better together project, which proved so

:28:40.:28:47.

effective in the Scottish referendum, shouldn't you fear

:28:48.:29:05.

Project Fear? Even Project Fear has a problem because a Scottish

:29:06.:29:13.

minister said all of the big businesses would leave Britain, but

:29:14.:29:18.

we would maintain our manufacturing bases. Even though if we stay in

:29:19.:29:24.

there will be some uncertainty as the euro zone becomes more united

:29:25.:29:27.

and we are likely to be part of that, so you cannot be sure of the

:29:28.:29:33.

future, no one on your side can tell us if we come out what will our

:29:34.:29:38.

status beach? What will our relationship be? Because you have

:29:39.:29:42.

lots of differences. We have a whole range of options. There are

:29:43.:29:46.

countries all over the world with different relationships, the Swiss

:29:47.:29:50.

have bilateral relationships the Norwegians have a relationship with

:29:51.:29:54.

the economic area. We are the biggest trading partner the has in

:29:55.:29:59.

the world, trading at a vast trading deficit. We want a British deal

:30:00.:30:03.

based on trade, cooperation and nothing more.

:30:04.:30:08.

There is still the uncertainty as to whether you can deliver. Every

:30:09.:30:15.

German car manufacturer, every producer, will insist we do that

:30:16.:30:20.

deal as quickly as possible. You hold that but it is uncertain. Under

:30:21.:30:27.

the terms of the treaties, on day one nothing would change, we would

:30:28.:30:33.

have access to markets during the time we renegotiate the British

:30:34.:30:37.

deal. Do you feel the ground moving on to you as the forces of the

:30:38.:30:43.

British state, Alex Salmond felt the same with the Scottish referendum,

:30:44.:30:47.

it is a formidable force and you are up against it? In terms of our

:30:48.:30:52.

political class, yes, I think the chances of many people currently in

:30:53.:30:58.

senior positions in politics, perhaps they diminish, inevitably,

:30:59.:31:02.

but you cannot take away from ordinary folk scene such as Cologne

:31:03.:31:06.

and saying to themselves, in three years, all of these people will have

:31:07.:31:11.

EU passports and be able to come to Britain. This campaign will be the

:31:12.:31:15.

people against the politicians and the more the politicians clubbed

:31:16.:31:18.

together, perhaps more the people will choose to vote against them. In

:31:19.:31:24.

any possibility of a relationship with the EU out, will almost

:31:25.:31:27.

certainly involve continued free movement and these people may well

:31:28.:31:31.

still be able to come to this country under any deal you reach? We

:31:32.:31:35.

have free trade deals all over the world that don't involve the free

:31:36.:31:40.

movement of people, it is only in Europe we have the free -- pretence

:31:41.:31:48.

that we have to have free movement of people. I want to control our

:31:49.:31:52.

borders and have an Australian style points system where we can judge

:31:53.:31:56.

whether people will make a positive contribution to society and I cannot

:31:57.:32:01.

do that as a member of the EU. You have not had the best of times,

:32:02.:32:09.

since the election. It culminated in what you designated a car breakdown

:32:10.:32:16.

as an assassination attempt. Has that undermined, as the most famous

:32:17.:32:23.

person on the outcome paying, has it undermined your credibility? I do

:32:24.:32:26.

not think it does. To say we have had a tough time, it is interesting,

:32:27.:32:33.

Ukip has been written off by every commentator in Fleet Street but the

:32:34.:32:41.

latest poll had us at 17%. The most important issue, immigration, we are

:32:42.:32:46.

the most trusted party on 29% and we go into this year with the

:32:47.:32:52.

expectation of winning seats in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland

:32:53.:32:55.

and playing a big role in this referendum.

:32:56.:32:57.

Let's talk now to former Conservative Chancellor,

:32:58.:32:58.

Are you in any doubt the Prime Minister is going to be the

:32:59.:33:10.

enthusiastic leader of the campaign to remain in the EU? I think you

:33:11.:33:18.

will, because all the news, although it is not really news, a lot of it

:33:19.:33:22.

is rumoured, is he will come back with a reasonable deal. He has

:33:23.:33:25.

already got the things he first talked about in the bag when he

:33:26.:33:29.

first announced he was going to have a referendum and seek reforms. He

:33:30.:33:35.

has added one or two more. Nobody knows the final deal but they are

:33:36.:33:38.

close to getting one and the debate is getting more serious and I think

:33:39.:33:44.

David will advocate staying in. He will put it, a reformed European

:33:45.:33:49.

union. Given this was the predictable outcome, is the

:33:50.:33:55.

referendum process, promoted by David Cameron, worth the candle? We

:33:56.:34:03.

shall see. You can see now, is it or not? Wait for the outcome, which

:34:04.:34:08.

will determine the effect of the referendum on British politics and

:34:09.:34:13.

the economy. All politicians of my generation did not think a

:34:14.:34:20.

referendum was a good way to run a modern, sophisticated country. You

:34:21.:34:25.

wish she had not done it? I do not think anybody thinks... I was in

:34:26.:34:31.

favour of calling a referendum. Margaret Thatcher denounced

:34:32.:34:34.

referendums in stronger terms than I have and they are a gamble and I do

:34:35.:34:40.

not think the Scottish one has resolved the Scottish independence

:34:41.:34:44.

issue. Let me come on to Scotland. It seems clear that the in campaign

:34:45.:34:48.

will draw heavily on the better together project. We have been

:34:49.:35:03.

briefed on fear of Russian aggression. Who will be happy if

:35:04.:35:07.

they leave? President Putin will be happy. It will put the positive case

:35:08.:35:13.

of Britain in Europe? I shall try to put the positive case, I hope Damian

:35:14.:35:17.

Greene will put the positive case. We are in the EU because we think it

:35:18.:35:21.

strengthens our voice in the modern world and it is good for the economy

:35:22.:35:28.

and we think that this is the right place, in what is a complicated

:35:29.:35:35.

world, with nations interdependent. We will be a modern and more modern

:35:36.:35:41.

and more successful if we are in. The campaign exaggerates things.

:35:42.:35:47.

Nigel Farage is a parody of a right-wing nationalists. People are

:35:48.:35:52.

inclined to say there will be calamity if we stay in or calamity

:35:53.:35:56.

if we leave. They will be huge uncertainty if we leave. I believe

:35:57.:36:01.

that my children and grandchildren will discover that we would be

:36:02.:36:09.

losing political influence. We know you want to stay in. If we vote to

:36:10.:36:14.

remain, should membership of the euro come back onto the agenda? I do

:36:15.:36:20.

not think it will in my lifetime. The British have decided not to join

:36:21.:36:24.

the euro. The euro has to be reformed. The eurozone still has not

:36:25.:36:30.

sorted out its crisis. Should it come back onto the British agenda? I

:36:31.:36:36.

am not going to forecast the future when we are fighting this

:36:37.:36:40.

referendum. I was asking for an opinion. I believe that if you have

:36:41.:36:47.

the single market, not a trade deal, a single market, usually you have a

:36:48.:36:52.

single means of exchange, but they made a mess of the euro and did not

:36:53.:36:56.

run it properly. I would not join at the moment. You don't rule it out?

:36:57.:37:02.

Maybe one day the next generation of politicians find we do want to have

:37:03.:37:07.

the same currency, but I cannot tell. You are pro-European, you know

:37:08.:37:12.

its failings. You can be critical of it. Do you worry, the future, even

:37:13.:37:19.

if we stay in, the future of the EU will be on what takes place inside

:37:20.:37:24.

the eurozone and we will be on the periphery, increasingly a country

:37:25.:37:28.

club member, does it worry you? It worried me when we started. With

:37:29.:37:33.

great respect you are talking about one of the most serious issues,

:37:34.:37:36.

there was an issue that needed to be addressed. We are almost there, what

:37:37.:37:43.

we did not want is the decision of the British and some others, who

:37:44.:37:47.

will not join in the foreseeable future, not to join the single

:37:48.:37:52.

currency, that it would make a second-class citizens and the

:37:53.:37:56.

eurozone group should not decide things that adversely affected us.

:37:57.:37:59.

We negotiated that before the referendum came up. I think George

:38:00.:38:04.

is almost there. My understanding is, but I am not directly involved.

:38:05.:38:09.

I think that is the most important point and it will not feature in

:38:10.:38:17.

this campaign. Deregulation, and other important things, reforms even

:38:18.:38:24.

a pro-European like me wanted. Thank you for your short interview and we

:38:25.:38:28.

will come back to you as the debate and referendum progresses.

:38:29.:38:31.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:32.:38:33.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:34.:38:35.

After two the main English exam board announced they will no longer

:38:36.:39:32.

offer GCSE courses here in Northern Ireland. He claims what he called

:39:33.:39:38.

the folly of the ministers in flexibility could put schools and

:39:39.:39:42.

pupils at a disadvantage. The Education Minister John O'Dowd is

:39:43.:39:45.

with me now. Thank you for joining us. You decided not to change the

:39:46.:39:50.

grading system back in November. And now two of the biggest exam boards

:39:51.:39:54.

are pulling out. You were once that would happen. Head teachers are not

:39:55.:39:59.

heavy. Some of the unions are not happy.

:40:00.:40:01.

It looks like you got this wrong. Some headteachers were not happy.

:40:02.:40:05.

Some teachers are not happy. There are a mixed views around the trade

:40:06.:40:10.

unions. It is worth pointing out what is known as the English exams

:40:11.:40:15.

body is irrelevant. In this regard. They are following changes made in

:40:16.:40:18.

the Department for Education, England, to change their curriculum

:40:19.:40:22.

in England to upgrade or change their examination system in England

:40:23.:40:26.

so English are following those changes, changes to suit the English

:40:27.:40:31.

education system. I consulted on this matter. I believe that the

:40:32.:40:42.

changes are staying. No one will be disadvantaged as a result of staying

:40:43.:40:45.

with the system we currently have. Except that it makes it more

:40:46.:40:51.

difficult for our schoolchildren to transfer those grades across to the

:40:52.:40:57.

UK system. It is a confusing system because we are staying as we are and

:40:58.:41:01.

it is changing across the water. There was no evidence to support

:41:02.:41:05.

that. What is the UK system? Scotland has its own examination is

:41:06.:41:08.

body so therefore Scottish tutors that Scottish exams. England now

:41:09.:41:14.

sits a different type of GCSE but GCSEs all the same. Wales have

:41:15.:41:22.

followed staying with a start. So what is the UK system? We're dealing

:41:23.:41:27.

now with changes that a devolved level. I can assure your viewers

:41:28.:41:32.

that I've made changes only after careful consideration and

:41:33.:41:36.

consultation and at each have ensure that our examinations will remain

:41:37.:41:39.

and portable. The concern that some people have is

:41:40.:41:43.

that the Northern Ireland exams body will now have a monopoly in the

:41:44.:41:48.

system currently providing 75% of GCSEs but the point is that 25% are

:41:49.:41:52.

provided by these other bodies. There will be a monopoly. If it

:41:53.:41:56.

doesn't do a particular course then it is going to be virtually

:41:57.:41:59.

impossible for schools to teach that in future.

:42:00.:42:03.

I can assure schools that we will ensure that whatever courses are not

:42:04.:42:10.

available currently, are to the Welsh examination body. We will

:42:11.:42:14.

allow a period of transition for exams were there is no equivalent

:42:15.:42:18.

currently on our curriculum and I will be setting out advice and

:42:19.:42:21.

information to schools in the week ahead to ensure they have full

:42:22.:42:25.

information and will be a translation period for a small

:42:26.:42:28.

number of exams which currently we do not provide.

:42:29.:42:31.

It is confusing. We will have another bet the system sitting side

:42:32.:42:35.

by side with a numerical system. I have been dealing with schools and

:42:36.:42:38.

principles and boards are governments of the last five years

:42:39.:42:42.

and they are not as easily confuse some of the media may suggest they

:42:43.:42:45.

are. Your point for staying with this

:42:46.:42:48.

system is to keep it simple because you do not want to confuse people by

:42:49.:42:52.

bringing in a numerical system. Now you are telling you that everyone is

:42:53.:42:55.

big enough and able enough to understand what could be at a

:42:56.:42:58.

confusing system. I'm talking about a very small

:42:59.:43:01.

minority of subjects, perhaps in terms of some of the minority

:43:02.:43:09.

languages. There was a very small range of subjects which may not be

:43:10.:43:16.

provided immediately by us. It is going to be a bureaucratic

:43:17.:43:20.

nightmare to sort this one out. It will not. It is not expensive. It is

:43:21.:43:27.

not a bureaucratic nightmare. Exam boards including those referred to

:43:28.:43:32.

as English exam boards over the next three years were changing the

:43:33.:43:36.

specifications of their exams. We're changing the content of exams.

:43:37.:43:40.

Schools were going through a period of change of the next three years

:43:41.:43:45.

regardless of my decision. Examination bodies on a regular

:43:46.:43:49.

basis will change content to ensure their exams are up to date and

:43:50.:43:54.

robust. So programmes of change such as this, schools have went through

:43:55.:43:58.

in the past. Peter where, who chairs the education committee, has called

:43:59.:44:03.

on you to show common sense and make the necessary changes to help rescue

:44:04.:44:06.

the situation. Why are you impervious to those

:44:07.:44:09.

things that come from some of your political opponents and others?

:44:10.:44:14.

Colourful language news we backed up. If Peter has evidence as to why

:44:15.:44:18.

we should simply follow what is happening in the Department for

:44:19.:44:21.

Education in England then he needs to produce it. I am concerned that

:44:22.:44:25.

some are suggesting simply follow the changes in the Department for

:44:26.:44:28.

Education in England because that is the way it has always happen.

:44:29.:44:32.

You had you don't think the Department for England is thought

:44:33.:44:34.

this through? They can their system if they

:44:35.:44:37.

choose. I made changes and stayed with certain aspects of GCSEs in our

:44:38.:44:42.

own system after cable consideration, after consultation

:44:43.:44:46.

and ensuring that are exam system is robust and portable. Our GCSEs are

:44:47.:44:50.

as worthwhile as any other part of England or Wales.

:44:51.:44:55.

Are you in fact privately quite relaxed that saying the relaxing the

:44:56.:45:00.

departure of the Bush boards from the stage?

:45:01.:45:04.

No. The geographical location of what is known as the English wadding

:45:05.:45:10.

borrowed these is immaterial. They could be located anywhere, the fact

:45:11.:45:14.

of the matter is that for commercial reasons, they have decided to leave

:45:15.:45:17.

our system because it no longer commercially suits them. That is

:45:18.:45:21.

regrettable but it is not a disaster. They have not got us on

:45:22.:45:24.

the hop and plans are in place. We will leave it there.

:45:25.:45:28.

Thank you very much for joining us. Let's take a look at the political

:45:29.:45:38.

week in 60 seconds. It was musical ministerial chairs at

:45:39.:45:41.

Stormont this week as Peter Robinson stepped aside.

:45:42.:45:45.

I hear Barry resigned the office of First Minister.

:45:46.:45:50.

To make way for Arlene Foster who chaired an executive meeting with

:45:51.:45:53.

ministers anxious to find solutions to the flooding problems.

:45:54.:45:58.

I suggest that we should extend the hardship payments to nondomestic

:45:59.:46:01.

properties. Martin McGuinness played the name

:46:02.:46:04.

game. And is wondering what is coming

:46:05.:46:08.

next. The First Minister says people have other concerns.

:46:09.:46:11.

I don't think anybody is focused on what my relationship is with Martin

:46:12.:46:14.

McGuinness. I think of August on what I'm doing people for Northern

:46:15.:46:21.

Ireland. Join with me in helping that history

:46:22.:46:27.

reflects that was the peak of the DUP's electoral successes.

:46:28.:46:32.

The speaker had the last word. Wishful thinking.

:46:33.:46:44.

Peter Robinson going out on a big laugh there. Let's hear the thoughts

:46:45.:46:48.

of my guests, Patricia MacBride and Alex Kane. Let's talk about Arlene

:46:49.:46:52.

Foster. She's had almost one week on the job of First Minister. Early

:46:53.:46:57.

days obviously but how would you rate her performance so far?

:46:58.:47:00.

It is worth bearing in mind she is entirely different to Ian Paisley

:47:01.:47:05.

and Peter Robinson. I think that will help the DUP and make it easier

:47:06.:47:09.

on the election campaign against the Ulster Unionists. But how big

:47:10.:47:13.

problem remains the same problem that Paisley and Robinson had. It is

:47:14.:47:18.

turning the better let -- turning the rhetoric into hard reality. They

:47:19.:47:23.

failed to do that. Her opening speech and McGuinness's response to

:47:24.:47:27.

that was we will work together if the people want us to work together.

:47:28.:47:31.

We are but one to tetchy moment since then. That is what everyone is

:47:32.:47:35.

now looking for. Can she make the difference that Robinson and Paisley

:47:36.:47:38.

could not? It is interesting because never you

:47:39.:47:41.

speak to her, she wants to play down the importance of that relationship

:47:42.:47:44.

with Martin McGuinness at her success as First Minister will have

:47:45.:47:48.

an off a lot to do with the success of that relationship.

:47:49.:47:52.

That is a fact. The success of the relationship between the two parties

:47:53.:47:55.

in terms of managing Government needs to be continued but the

:47:56.:47:58.

dynamic of the relationship will change. In her interviews this week

:47:59.:48:03.

she mentioned on a number of occasions the fact that she has

:48:04.:48:12.

infinite patience and those traits that she will need. The other thing

:48:13.:48:18.

about an Irish mother, as patient as she may be, she will also be fierce

:48:19.:48:22.

when her patience is tried so it will be interesting to see who or

:48:23.:48:26.

what drives her patience and how she reacts to it.

:48:27.:48:30.

Do you think she can pick our way through the difficult territory that

:48:31.:48:36.

is the decade I think it is a slightly stupid

:48:37.:48:44.

response. The willingness to say she will talk about it. She has to put

:48:45.:48:50.

good election results. If she does not nothing else matters.

:48:51.:48:52.

We will talk to you later. Thanks very much indeed.

:48:53.:48:59.

It is meant to be a flagship project to tackle unemployment. Now there is

:49:00.:49:06.

confusion this week over which department is going to take charge

:49:07.:49:13.

of it. You are both welcome to the programme. This programme is a

:49:14.:49:20.

programme for Government commitment and you were a special adviser at

:49:21.:49:23.

the time it was set up. You are one of its biggest champions. What has

:49:24.:49:26.

gone wrong? I think there has been a lot of

:49:27.:49:30.

negativity and criticism will stop I don't know if that is actually fair.

:49:31.:49:35.

There is a lot of good news to be told about the social investment

:49:36.:49:38.

fund programme. It has taken longer. The first thing to be clear about is

:49:39.:49:41.

that it has taken longer than what politicians would have hoped for and

:49:42.:49:44.

the First Minister would have hoped for but there is a good news story

:49:45.:49:48.

in there. Whenever we were developing the fund we looked to

:49:49.:49:53.

other countries for the types of programmes that can bring about

:49:54.:49:56.

social change and one of the big things coming across was around

:49:57.:49:59.

using programmes that were entirely community led and for the first time

:50:00.:50:04.

it has not been done in Scotland or Ireland or England, Northern Ireland

:50:05.:50:07.

is leading the way with this innovative programme which is

:50:08.:50:11.

entirely community led. The problems identified with the community and

:50:12.:50:15.

solutions are identified by the community.

:50:16.:50:17.

It is fine in theory but the reality is very different. This is an ?80

:50:18.:50:21.

million bun. It is all supposed to have been spent by now but you have

:50:22.:50:28.

spent only 4 million. By the end of March you will spend 7 million so in

:50:29.:50:31.

five years you will have spent less than 10% of what you should have

:50:32.:50:33.

spent. That headline doesn't reveal the

:50:34.:50:39.

true picture. ?60 million has been committed. What we need to

:50:40.:50:42.

understand dot-mac it is a contractual commitment. At least

:50:43.:50:46.

have the programme, runs over two to three years so at least have the

:50:47.:50:53.

programme is funded. In my own constituency, employability south,

:50:54.:50:55.

that is not a one-year programme. We don't want all that money spent

:50:56.:50:59.

Ayrshire so it is a three-year programme. But that money is cool

:51:00.:51:05.

fractionally committed. That is what community organisations want and

:51:06.:51:08.

people on the ground want. It should've been spent on three

:51:09.:51:11.

years up to now. It should not be starting to be spent at this point.

:51:12.:51:15.

That is the whole thing. We talked to community workers on the ground

:51:16.:51:17.

and they are pretty disenchanted with the whole system and feel like

:51:18.:51:20.

they have been forced through hoops time and time again and the money is

:51:21.:51:24.

in filtering through to them. It is an ambitious project and I

:51:25.:51:28.

worked week on week talking to community organisations and talking

:51:29.:51:31.

to people on the ground and I understand their frustration.

:51:32.:51:34.

Politicians are being frustrated about the length of time it takes

:51:35.:51:37.

but unfortunately there are a number of mechanisms that we need to go

:51:38.:51:40.

through. There were 69 projects that came forward in terms of social

:51:41.:51:43.

investment fund, and of those the writ huge clusters. One single

:51:44.:51:50.

project have 13 different capital elements to that. I know you

:51:51.:51:53.

yourself in terms of your charitable work have worked on some of those

:51:54.:51:56.

big introduction cabinet projects and it takes a lot of time put up

:51:57.:52:00.

how to go through design briefs, procurement, economists, it is very

:52:01.:52:04.

challenging. But what I do know is it will be worth it at the end. What

:52:05.:52:08.

communities will see is that those projects have fidelity to the

:52:09.:52:11.

original concept that they came up with several years ago but they will

:52:12.:52:14.

see that working and because of those safeguards, cause of the work

:52:15.:52:17.

we are in and the good design of those projects I know they will

:52:18.:52:21.

bring about tangible benefits on the ground reached outcomes we

:52:22.:52:24.

originally wanted. Chris, do you accept that is the

:52:25.:52:30.

case? OK, delivery has been badly. It actually broadly speaking, the

:52:31.:52:33.

right things are being done and they are going to benefit the correct

:52:34.:52:37.

people on the ground? I think the aims of tackling social

:52:38.:52:42.

deprivation and dereliction in the community are reasonable aims. The

:52:43.:52:48.

administration of the fund has been shambolic. The targets dot-mac the

:52:49.:52:52.

pro-government targets was to spend ?80 million between 2011 and 2015.

:52:53.:52:59.

And they made 2015 and ?1 million had been spent. That raises serious

:53:00.:53:04.

questions at a time when families, businesses, public services, are

:53:05.:53:07.

under real pressure. Why that money was not properly utilise other time

:53:08.:53:12.

when the DUP and Sinn Fein have constantly talked about helping the

:53:13.:53:15.

most abominable. Peter Robinson said the really is the main target broke

:53:16.:53:20.

OFMDFM. That raises real questions as to why that has not been

:53:21.:53:22.

achieved. Do you see this as nothing much more

:53:23.:53:27.

than ?80 million experiment? I think it raises serious questions.

:53:28.:53:33.

There have been Gateway reviews that have not been published so it not be

:53:34.:53:36.

to see the full details of what went wrong in order to reflect on that.

:53:37.:53:41.

There been some projects delivered but there have been people waiting

:53:42.:53:47.

to deliver education programmes, childcare programmes, advice

:53:48.:53:50.

centres, all of whom could use that money extremely effectively but they

:53:51.:53:53.

have not had access to it. It is an interesting point that

:53:54.:53:58.

Chris raises, Emma. We spoke to some of those groups that had been

:53:59.:54:01.

bidding for this money over the last few years and they raised for those

:54:02.:54:06.

issues like complaints from funding decisions being influenced by

:54:07.:54:09.

paramilitaries, which they have grave concerns about. Driscoll horse

:54:10.:54:14.

trading. Decisions made based on Sinn Fein and the DUP being kept

:54:15.:54:18.

happy rather than need on the ground. Mystification as to why

:54:19.:54:22.

money wasn't given to the DST when it has an neighbourhood renewal

:54:23.:54:24.

strategy that could deliver this type of project. Judge that there's

:54:25.:54:31.

a fair issue is a fair issues for groups and individuals to raise?

:54:32.:54:36.

Absolutely no truth to the allegations around horse trading or

:54:37.:54:39.

any kind of malignant influence. None at all. And what I would say

:54:40.:54:43.

that we have a really good team of people working on this post just

:54:44.:54:46.

this week we have at the chair of the OFMDFM clinging around very

:54:47.:54:51.

insulting terms. Very good officials and working very hard. They're

:54:52.:54:55.

working with the community. The easy route would have been to fire this

:54:56.:54:59.

into an existing scheme but what we have done dot-mac would we have

:55:00.:55:04.

achieved anything? If we're going to achieve better outcomes need to do

:55:05.:55:09.

things differently. Even if it takes longer it is worth it. Better to

:55:10.:55:11.

have the right project. How's that the case that originally

:55:12.:55:19.

responsibilities were going to be transferred to the project of social

:55:20.:55:22.

response Bertie there was announced by a senior official in your

:55:23.:55:25.

department it was not happening any more? Why such a U-turn on that

:55:26.:55:31.

issue? That comes down to one of the many

:55:32.:55:36.

differences. This is a cross departmental skin. It does not fit

:55:37.:55:41.

into the neat box of one department and that is why OFMDFM was behind it

:55:42.:55:45.

in the first place. It deals with unity services, Chard and education,

:55:46.:55:49.

these are not think that that within one department. This is a very much

:55:50.:55:58.

a central scheme. It is not just in OFMDFM project and I believe it will

:55:59.:56:02.

bring about changes to many more communities will stop what you make

:56:03.:56:05.

but that policy change? My understanding was that the

:56:06.:56:10.

delivery of social investment fund was supposed to be transferred to

:56:11.:56:13.

the new Department of communities, the Department for social relevant

:56:14.:56:17.

with experience in the delivery of the Stauber projects, there are

:56:18.:56:20.

other programmes that have delivered in ways that the social investment

:56:21.:56:27.

fund has not. The Department for employment has delivered 1300 new

:56:28.:56:31.

university places, 40,000 young people into employment, and 4000

:56:32.:56:36.

jobs to the assured skills programme as well. So there are other

:56:37.:56:39.

departments using funds effectively to deliver positive outcomes for

:56:40.:56:45.

people in Northern Ireland. The record on their social investment

:56:46.:56:48.

fund is to be scrutinised. What do you say about what needs to

:56:49.:56:52.

be done so that your confidence can the restored in the confidence of

:56:53.:56:55.

community groups? I know you are involved in one group in particular

:56:56.:56:58.

that is actually bidding for some of this funding so maybe you have a

:56:59.:57:01.

feel of what it's like on the ground and stop what these redundant store

:57:02.:57:04.

confidence? We need to see progress as soon as

:57:05.:57:09.

possible in terms of clear communication to the community

:57:10.:57:12.

groups who are involved in bidding for the fans, and we need to see

:57:13.:57:16.

fund released to people on the ground start using them as

:57:17.:57:19.

effectively as possible. Can that happen? It is happening.

:57:20.:57:25.

Almost 700 people employed through our schemes and since I became

:57:26.:57:29.

junior minister I have announced over ?16 million projects going out.

:57:30.:57:33.

Delivery is ramping up and will be out there on the ground and it is

:57:34.:57:38.

already happening within certain constituencies. I am absolutely

:57:39.:57:41.

confident that in the course of the next few months all of the funding

:57:42.:57:44.

will be committed. Many tens of thousands of people are going to

:57:45.:57:47.

benefit from the scheme and whenever people setback they will say, this

:57:48.:57:52.

was a good idea. The OFMDFM did something different and it was the

:57:53.:57:55.

right thing to do because it is actually change things on the

:57:56.:57:56.

ground. The cottages between it has been a

:57:57.:58:00.

disaster and you clearly don't think there's been a disaster. Therefore

:58:01.:58:04.

the only conclusion I can reach is that your role over optimistic about

:58:05.:58:07.

what you could deliver within the timescale. Do you accept that as a

:58:08.:58:11.

fair criticism? If the scheme are still bidding you can deliver the

:58:12.:58:15.

money quickly to the people are needed you were hopelessly naive

:58:16.:58:18.

about the time it was going to take you to do that.

:58:19.:58:21.

We were overambitious by the done thing that is a bad thing. It will

:58:22.:58:26.

happen, it is happening and I do think it will bring about benefits.

:58:27.:58:30.

I think unfortunately it has clouded the success is within the scheme and

:58:31.:58:33.

innovation within this team but think that these projects are out of

:58:34.:58:36.

the ground people have the time to reflect and saved was a good thing.

:58:37.:58:40.

It is different on what to do it again and I believe other

:58:41.:58:42.

jurisdictions across the UK others will look to this to say, there are

:58:43.:58:47.

some very good principles and here. Wider benefits.

:58:48.:58:56.

Until all of the money is delivered there is a serious credibility issue

:58:57.:58:59.

for the fund and for someone like yourself who has invested so much of

:59:00.:59:03.

your personal time and effort in it. Part of that is the likes of myself

:59:04.:59:07.

going out there and saying to people what this fund is about. People who

:59:08.:59:10.

will be operating the skin will be saying to others about the success

:59:11.:59:13.

of that but the best thing about this will be the people who benefit

:59:14.:59:17.

from it and those people will notice a good thing and those people will

:59:18.:59:19.

talk about is and monster schemes get up and running on the ground and

:59:20.:59:23.

a lot of them are doing that. More will do that this year. All of those

:59:24.:59:27.

tens of thousands of people will be selling this project saying it is as

:59:28.:59:32.

excess and using it as an example moving forward.

:59:33.:59:37.

We need to leave it there. We will continue to keep a close eye in the

:59:38.:59:42.

months ahead. Let's take a final word with Patricia and Alex. Let's

:59:43.:59:46.

talk about the social investment fund. There may have been a few

:59:47.:59:50.

bumps on the road effectively is what MSN. At the end the day the

:59:51.:59:52.

money will be delivered to the people who need it most.

:59:53.:59:56.

The social investment fund was the peace dividend and the dividend

:59:57.:00:01.

double not paid. This was announced in 2010 and a two to 2013 until we

:00:02.:00:05.

had any idea about what schemes would be funded. There was huge

:00:06.:00:10.

delay and that was the result of deciding how we going to fund

:00:11.:00:14.

projects in Unionist areas or Nationalist areas that are most

:00:15.:00:18.

deprived. There is no doubt that there was political disagreement on

:00:19.:00:21.

the types of projects that were going to be funded and the knock-on

:00:22.:00:25.

effect in community and voluntary sector organisations who have bid

:00:26.:00:29.

for the standard was a loss of expertise. Projects tell by the

:00:30.:00:32.

wayside because they were dependent on match funding. And when the

:00:33.:00:35.

social investment did not come through then the other match funding

:00:36.:00:39.

was withdrawn. Abel moved onto other roles. The key thing now is, if the

:00:40.:00:43.

money is going to be committed in the next number of months as Emma

:00:44.:00:46.

has said that it will be, that it is committed in such a way that the

:00:47.:00:51.

expertise is not lost. That those projects can continue to deliver for

:00:52.:00:56.

the benefit of the community but fundamentally, in the evaluation,

:00:57.:00:58.

there needs to be some looks at where it has all gone wrong.

:00:59.:01:05.

Alex, what is your investment and opinion on the success of the

:01:06.:01:07.

scheme? Patricia is right. I've talked to

:01:08.:01:15.

books on -- groups on both side. The funding has not be made available

:01:16.:01:19.

and are no Emma says it is not a matter of horse trading but it is

:01:20.:01:22.

hard to avoid the conclusion that somewhere between the DUP and Shin

:01:23.:01:25.

Bender is disagreement about whether is money should go and I think they

:01:26.:01:28.

need dot-mac we're talking a matter of weeks before an election when it

:01:29.:01:31.

should be actually trumpeting the success of this money, they're still

:01:32.:01:36.

saying, we're not quite sure when. Interesting discussion today. Thank

:01:37.:01:39.

you very much indeed. That is it from all

:01:40.:06:35.

Donald Trump is net damaging for the Scottish economy, but that is not

:06:36.:06:40.

why I am saying he should be considered on the same basis as

:06:41.:06:45.

everybody else. We have banned American shock jocks and MPs, not

:06:46.:06:52.

necessarily on terrorism, Donald Trump is not on any of these things,

:06:53.:06:58.

but making statements, in the words of the formulation, are not

:06:59.:07:03.

conducive to the public interest. What did you get wrong, your

:07:04.:07:07.

assessment of Donald Trump, or the size of an independent Scotland's

:07:08.:07:12.

oil revenue? Eight years ago I would have found it difficult to know that

:07:13.:07:18.

Donald Trump was going to run for president of the US. Most people

:07:19.:07:22.

would have found that an incredible proposition. I was not to know he

:07:23.:07:27.

would make a range of statements that are deeply offensive and deeply

:07:28.:07:31.

not acceptable whether they apply to Mexicans all Muslims. Nor did I

:07:32.:07:37.

anticipate he would only go forward with a 10th of the investment

:07:38.:07:45.

promised. It is a yes or no, which? I did not anticipate any of these

:07:46.:07:50.

things, Andrew. Thanks for joining us. You have won the prize for the

:07:51.:07:55.

best ever backdrop to an interview down the line I have done. Alex

:07:56.:08:00.

Salmond, thank you for joining us. Back to Europe, we are told I think

:08:01.:08:11.

the Sunday Times and other papers that the Prime Minister is not going

:08:12.:08:15.

to just get what he wants, he is going to pull rabbits out of a hat

:08:16.:08:22.

and get more than we expect. We spent 2015 playing down

:08:23.:08:26.

expectations. I remember number 10 enjoying it in November and December

:08:27.:08:30.

when the Conservative leaning press was talking down the renegotiation

:08:31.:08:34.

Cameron would achieve, they wanted to go into February with Tory

:08:35.:08:38.

backbenchers and voters and members expecting really quite a paltry deal

:08:39.:08:43.

from Brussels and Berlin. The rabbits he pulls out of his hat do

:08:44.:08:47.

not have to be big, they can be medium-sized. They can still clear

:08:48.:08:52.

the low hurdle that has been set for him. He has raised the bar by

:08:53.:08:59.

talking about rabbits. So far this has gone exactly as I and many

:09:00.:09:03.

others predicted. Cameron was always going to orchestrate it so it

:09:04.:09:07.

sounded like it would be difficult and then he managed to get

:09:08.:09:11.

concessions and then he gets something fantastic at the last

:09:12.:09:17.

crucial moment! I think that leave, out campaign, the various campaigns,

:09:18.:09:24.

have a challenge. Not to allow Tisch boaters to fall for these ruses and

:09:25.:09:28.

there should be real scrutiny of what Cameron comes back with. --

:09:29.:09:43.

allow voters. If you are the Prime Minister on the European project,

:09:44.:09:48.

which I expect privately he wishes he did not kick off in the first

:09:49.:09:52.

those, it looks good, it looks like he will get a deal. The potential

:09:53.:10:00.

major deserters, we are told Michael Gove will stay, Nick Herbert forms a

:10:01.:10:04.

Eurosceptic group to stay inside, and we see no sign of Boris Johnson,

:10:05.:10:12.

Theresa May leading the out camp. If they do not do it, that is job done

:10:13.:10:19.

for the Prime Minister. Yes, it is dangerous to predict, but the stars

:10:20.:10:24.

seem to be coming together in a favourable way. I picked this up on

:10:25.:10:29.

Thursday last week, essentially the Prime Minister would get something

:10:30.:10:33.

on welfare that would be better on the four-year ban on in work

:10:34.:10:39.

benefits. You could say pressure on public services is too great and we

:10:40.:10:44.

need to limit migration. What is interesting is that potentially

:10:45.:10:48.

means the four girls he wants, he could do better than that. It is

:10:49.:10:52.

interesting because it now appears according to an opinion poll in the

:10:53.:10:58.

Times newspaper, voters have clocked onto the negotiations and believed

:10:59.:11:02.

they are for real and believe if the Prime Minister gets a good package,

:11:03.:11:06.

there is a greater chance they will vote to stay in. All the detriment

:11:07.:11:16.

-- diplomats who said he could not do this, he appears to have proved

:11:17.:11:21.

them wrong. If it is going well for the Prime Minister, there are

:11:22.:11:25.

opinion polls showing a majority to come out, today. I have learned my

:11:26.:11:33.

lesson from the general election, which is not to believe polls and so

:11:34.:11:37.

I do not think they are correct. They were right on the Scottish

:11:38.:11:42.

referendum. You think the campaign is starting from behind? I do and I

:11:43.:11:47.

think there is a danger as Nigel Farage touched upon, that voters

:11:48.:11:52.

will think it is a giant stitch up if the political establishment, the

:11:53.:11:57.

big figures we have talked about, are on one side, it does not look

:11:58.:12:00.

like a balanced debate and it may backfire. Tomorrow, the equity

:12:01.:12:09.

markets have had their worst start to the year since the crash. All

:12:10.:12:13.

eyes will be on London and New York tomorrow. Should the government

:12:14.:12:16.

prepare for a potential financial crisis? It is politically preparing

:12:17.:12:22.

because George Osborne gave a speech ten days ago that was more negative

:12:23.:12:27.

about the economic picture than the Autumn Statement in November. That I

:12:28.:12:32.

think is laying the political ground if not for recession or crisis, then

:12:33.:12:39.

slower growth than we were expecting. It looks worrying, the

:12:40.:12:44.

Dow was down almost 500 points at one stage. That would be very bad

:12:45.:12:49.

for George Osborne but there is an argument people will cling to him as

:12:50.:12:54.

a future leader if times are tough. Some people saw that speech as the

:12:55.:12:58.

beginning of Project Fear on the European referendum. Maybe he

:12:59.:13:02.

believed it and he was telling us the warning lights were flashing. We

:13:03.:13:10.

will see if there is a flight to British bonds. Keep your eye on the

:13:11.:13:11.

markets tomorrow. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow

:13:12.:13:14.

at midday over on BBC Two, and I'll be back here,

:13:15.:13:20.

same time, same place, Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:21.:13:27.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:28.:13:31.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS