Browse content similar to 17/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Was former London Mayor Ken Livingstone booted off | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
Or, as Mr Livingstone claims, did he step down | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
because he is at one on all defence matters with this lady, | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
Labour's new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry. | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
Like Mr Livingstone she's not a fan of Britain's | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
David Cameron has a plan to deliver some "rabbits from the hat" | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
Another campaign group has entered the fray on his side, | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
As the battle hots up we'll be talking to a man who wants out, | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and a man who wants to stay in, | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
Donald Trump and his former chum Alex Salmond have spent | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
The wannabe American President thinks Mr Salmond's | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
an embarrassement to his country. pledged to demolish sink estates. | :01:29. | :01:46. | |
What will it mean to communities in the capital? | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
I won't have a nasty word said against them. | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh who'll be tweeting | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
So first today let's talk about Jeremy Corbyn, | :02:01. | :02:12. | |
who gave a wide-ranging interview on the Marr show a little earlier. | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
My question, with respect, was about sympathy action | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
and whether you would remove that legislation. | :02:18. | :02:18. | |
Sympathy action is legal in most other countries and I think it | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
should also be legal here. But remember this... | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
So you would repeal those Tory laws? | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Yes, of course. Nobody willingly goes on strike. | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
They go on strike as an ultimate weapon. | :02:28. | :02:29. | |
The number of strikes is actually very small. | :02:30. | :02:31. | |
It's an ultimate weapon that is used. | :02:32. | :02:32. | |
Anyone that is going on strike is making an enormous sacrifice. | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
They don't get paid, they suffer a great deal as a result | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
of it, so let's look at the causes of people being upset rather | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
A policy packed interview with Andrew Marr on the Falklands, | :02:42. | :02:58. | |
Islamic State, secondary striking, even on the idea maybe we could keep | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
Trident but not any missile warheads on the missiles. I felt nostalgic. I | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
was back to a teenager in the 1980s, I remember these arguments in the | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
1980s and Michael foot put them in the manifesto for the 1983 election. | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
He was robust on the Falkland Islands. He was. The point for | :03:23. | :03:31. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is he has a mandate from the party to put forward these | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
arguments. He had a 60% vote and it is clear what he thinks of nuclear | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
weapons. He has been a member of CND since 1966. The challenge for Jeremy | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
Corbyn is to put forward ideas in a way that appeals beyond new members | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
of the Labour Party to the electorate as a whole who have | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
concerns about security of the nation, for example, possibly having | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
successor submarines of the Trident system without nuclear weapons. That | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
is the Japanese system, they talk in Japan how they have what is known as | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
the bomb in the basement. They are a non-declared nuclear state but could | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
arm themselves with nuclear weapons within minutes if needed. That is | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
what he is talking about. Sounds good in the leg party but he needs | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
to sell it to the country as a whole. It is clear a lot of what | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
Jeremy Corbyn says has the support of the grassroots, particularly the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
new ones who have joined the party. It is clear a lot of this does not | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party. That is | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
the constant problem yet to be squared. I cannot see a way it will | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
be squared. I do not think many Labour MPs can either. His problem | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
is admirable, it is he is determined not to remove himself from things | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
said in the past. On the Falklands he is consistent with what he said | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
in 2013, when it did not matter, and how he is now repeating those views. | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
The problem is now Jeremy Corbyn matters and if you look at the | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Falklands, the last time there was a vote of those on the Falkland | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
Islands, only three voted to change the system of administration, so he | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
is out of step with people living there. He sets out his left-wing | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
stall on these issues. Bit by bit, he is taking his time, doing it | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
astutely. He is taking the lead party in his direction, part of the | :05:35. | :05:36. | |
purpose I would suggest of the interview will stop no one could | :05:37. | :05:47. | |
question that. If you go into a general election with a leader who | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
says something like, let's have the return of secondary picketing, and | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
that is not the worst idea in the manifesto, also talking about | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
renewing the vanguard submarines without warheads and I think he | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
floated the idea of reasonable accommodation with Argentina on the | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
Falklands, he would go to the election knowing you have a white, | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
working-class base, which is already flirting with Ukip. How low can | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
Labour Singh? Technically it is impossible to get rid of him but | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
maybe politics is like water and finds a way to go around obstacles. | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
And if his ideas turn out to be popular? I think they will be | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
popular with the membership at every general election since 1983 would | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
suggest to us these ideas are outside the mainstream. Jeremy | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Corbyn says there is a new world out there, I tapped into that in the | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
campaign, with thousands packing up meetings. We have the electoral test | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
in May, let's see how the ideas go down outside the party. Should | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
written keep its nuclear deterrent? -- Great Britain. | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
Jeremy Corbyn doesn't think so and neither | :07:03. | :07:03. | |
does his new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
who we'll be talking to in just a minute. | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
But first here's Adam on a multi-billion-pound question. | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
The Imperial War Museum is showing the work of artist Peter Kennard, | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
the creator of some of the starkest images of the campaign | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
This was in 1980, this is when cruise missiles were coming | :07:20. | :07:31. | |
to Britain and the idea was they were going to circulate | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
It's coming back into fashion because some time this year | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
the Government is expected to hold a Parliamentary vote | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
on whether to build a new generation of submarines to carry | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
The issue is dogging Labour, as Jeremy Corbyn made his first | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
speech of the year at the Fabian's campaign group conference. | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
I thank you very much for inviting me here today. | :07:55. | :07:56. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's speech focused on energy, Europe, rail prices... | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
no mention of Trident, which he has campaigned | :08:04. | :08:05. | |
The issue is - not all of his MPs agree with him. | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
My view at the moment is that the case in favour | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
of retaining is stronger than the case against, | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
but I think it's important we review this and look at all the options. | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
I'm in favour of keeping our nuclear deterrent. | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
I think it's important for keeping our country safe. | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
It's Labour Party policy, I hope it will stay that way. | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
Have you had an argument with Jeremy about it yet? | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
Definitely arguing with Jeremy this week, the boss of the GMB union, | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
who says building new subs will safeguard thousands of jobs | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
in places like Barrow, where they're built. | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
If anybody thinks that unions like the GMB are going to go quietly | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
into the night while tens of thousands of our members' jobs | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
are literally swaneed away by rhetoric, then they have | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
Meet the woman who's got to reconcile the two tribes, | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, a critic | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
of Trident who's doing the party's defence review. | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
But it's turning into a row about how Labour makes policy. | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
On one side, the people who feel the decision should be made by | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
We have a national policy forum, we have a process where the papers | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
go to our conference and are voted on. | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
They involve trade unionists, they involve affiliated | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
John Landsman, who campaigns for a bigger role for party | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
activists and founded the Corbynite group Momentum, | :09:36. | :09:37. | |
I'm not convinced the Government has to have a vote at all, | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
but if it decides to have a vote we obviously need to have taken some | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
soundings among party members and affiliates about what they think | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
So, Labour Party policy on Trident could change by the summer? | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
We will have had some process to consider our policy | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
before the summer, yes, obviously, we have to. | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
So Labour Party policy, when it comes to a vote, | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
by the summer could be voting against the renewal of Trident? | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
Look, I know that you're trying to get me to say very briefly, | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
you know, something very quick about how policy is made | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
in our party, the trouble is it's quite a complex process. | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
Policy is ultimately decided by party conference | :10:25. | :10:26. | |
in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party but if we have to take quicker | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
decisions, we have to do it by other methods. | :10:30. | :10:40. | |
That might drive some Labour people into meltdown. | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
It could be war, not just over whether Labour supports the renewal | :10:44. | :10:45. | |
of Trident, but also who gets to make the decision. | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
And with me now, the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry. | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
Welcome. Did you drop Ken Livingstone from the defence review? | :10:57. | :11:08. | |
No, it was going to be my review and when I spoke to Jeremy about it I | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
said it was an honour to take an extraordinary job, to be able to | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
shadow a department where people are prepared to put their lives on the | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
line. Was he part of the defence review already? I said I would lead | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
the review and it will be my review, and it will feed into international | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
policy commission, co-chaired by Ken Livingstone, which will feed into | :11:32. | :11:41. | |
the national policy forum which will then feed into party conference. Mr | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
Livingstone said on defence matters he had lunch with you and you agree | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
on everything on the defence side and so voluntarily stepped aside, is | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
that true? I am a big fan of Ken Livingstone, that is not a secret, I | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
am also against Trident. I come in as a sceptic and also with the | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
ambition to listen to what people say, to be not afraid to ask | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
difficult questions and to come to a view on policy on the basis of | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
evidence. Did he step aside because you broadly agreed on defence | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
matters? Jeremy Corbyn put me in charge of the review and that is | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
what happened. Did Mr Livingstone step aside as he said? He is chair | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
of the commission I will be feeding my review into. I understand. Do you | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
agree on everything when it comes to defence? I agree with a lot Ken | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
Livingstone says but I do not agree we should pull out of Nato and I | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
will not review this on the basis of us changing any international | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
agreements or organisations we are signed up to. The review will take | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
place within the context of our continued membership of Nato? That | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
is right. On Trident? Ken Livingstone is against renewing | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
Trident. That has been your position. I think the days of | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
unilateral, multilateral, all of this sort of thing is from the | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
1980s. We should look at what are the 21st-century threats to Britain | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
and how should we best address them? It seems that is the best way to do | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
it, look at the threats and what is the best way of addressing that. | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
What I am more than anything is a moderniser. You voted against | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
renewal of Trident in 2007. Do you know what, in the 80s, I was in | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
favour of Trident because there were two macro sides, life was different, | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
but life has moved on since 2007. Certainly since the 1980s, and I | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
think the time has come for us to have a debate about what the | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
21st-century threats are, which includes whether or not it is the | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
appropriate response. What would change your mind? What could you be | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
told about Trident that would make you think we should keep it? Good | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
try. I have had this job a couple of days and want to go into it with an | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
open mind and look at evidence. You are against Trident? I am in favour | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
of making policy on the basis of evidence put before me and I have | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
had a large number of invitations to talk to people and pick their | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
brains. I want to be able to do that and bring the party with me. Are you | :14:27. | :14:34. | |
against drone strikes? No, I think in the future the role of drones is | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
likely to increase, under the sea and for air strikes. When you were | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
shadow Attorney General, did you question the legality under | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
international law? This is quite difficult, because the advice I gave | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
to the leaders... You have got that wrong. I was asking a question. | :14:57. | :15:05. | |
Have you questioned their legality or not? There is a difference | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
between their use and bare existence so therefore... I'm so sorry but | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
it's legally privileged and I cannot talk about advice I gave to the | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
leader. All right but you can talk to the electorate. Would you support | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
the use of drone strikes? I would support the use of whatever means | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
are necessary to keep the British people safe. Including drone | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
strikes? Yes, within the confines of the law. Do you have an end date | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
when you think you have got to have the review done by? No, I don't want | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
the strategic review to be anything like the Tories' which was very | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
short. They opened a website and only allowed people to put 200 words | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
in and in my view didn't look at it properly so it will take as long as | :16:01. | :16:07. | |
it takes. I have a lot to look at. I understand, we have a lot of ground | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
to cover and we don't have a lot of time this morning. In the meantime | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
it's almost certain there will be a major vote on Trident, which begins | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
the real spending on the renewal some time in the spring. What will | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
happen to Labour? Will you be whipped to vote in favour of current | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
party policy, which is pro-Trident? Will you be encouraging to -- people | :16:32. | :16:40. | |
to vote against it? The first question is, are they going to have | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
a vote, are they going to have a vote in the spring, and what will | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
the vote be? Will we have the Treasury and the MoD agreeing? If | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
there is a main gate proposal, comes forward to the Commons, how will you | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
vote? The rumour is they are not going to have anything more than | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
another vote in principle on whether or not we should renew Trident. | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
Pro-Trident people should be angry about that because we had a vote | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
about that in 2007, what have they been doing all this time? Labour | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
policy is to have a continual artsy deterrent but to have a review. We | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
are in the process of having a review, we need to look at when the | :17:26. | :17:36. | |
vote is, what it is about, then I will have a discussion with Jeremy | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
and the Chief Whip and did -- decision will be made. Jeremy has | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
said he wants macro to accommodate differences in views and I have said | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
my review has got to be done in an atmosphere of trust and respect. So | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
it will be a free vote. What do you say to those who say when it comes | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
to the Trident part of the defence review that it is a sham, that you | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
have replaced Maria Eagle who was pro-Trident. Your leader is a | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
lifelong unilateral disarmament. The party grass roots is increasingly | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
hostile to Trident, so the chances of this recommending anything other | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
than don't renew Trident is pretty impossible. I will begin this review | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
by looking at the threat to Britain because my overriding responsibility | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
is to make sure it is in line with what keeps Britain safe. We will | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
take it as the evidence takes us. That is how we will approach it. | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
Jeremy has already said, he said in the last few days that it may be | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
this won't be a binary decision, things are not must rarely black and | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
white any more, we are not going to the 1980s. What do you make of this | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
idea that he floated on the Andrew Marr Show this morning that we could | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
maybe renew Trident but not put warheads on the missiles? The | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
Japanese option, that is certainly one thing that needs to be looked | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
at. What would be the point? I'm not saying this is what we are going to | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
do, but the way that it works is that the Japanese have got the | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
capability to build a nuclear bomb if they need to, but you can then | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
use them in various delivery forms. That's a possibility, it is an | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
option. So you put the eventual warheads onto Trident submarines? | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
Trident missiles? I appreciate that you want me to speculate and I | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
understand that. Your leader spoke about it this morning. I have said | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
there are of options. When you file a ballistic missile at a country, | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
every early warning ballistic missile system will assume that is | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
an attack because ballistic missile is only carry nuclear weapons so we | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
will risk retaliation for something that is not using nuclear weapons, | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
isn't that very dangerous? You are welcome to take part in my review. I | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
am a kind of busy on the day job. Do you think the party membership | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
should determine Trident policy, not just be consulting on it, which I | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
know you'll want to do, but should they determined in the end such | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
important issue? Party conference will decide what our policy is. I | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
would like to have a review that will have party members feeding into | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
it, feeding into their views in a way we have not had before and I | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
will encourage that. You weren't in the end have a vote among party | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
members to determine your policy? Our rules are that party conference | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
decides our policy. Do you think you will have your ducks in a row by the | :20:56. | :21:04. | |
time of this year's party conference? If I can help the | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
national policy Forum by doing an interim report, I will do so. What | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
do you say to the trade union leaders who say you will put | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
thousands of jobs at risk if you don't renew Trident? I say I will | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
listen to what they say and I will look at whether there are other | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
alternatives. I understand, and I fully respect the concerns that have | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
been raised so we need to look at whether there are solutions to that. | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
You have taken substantial donations from a law firm that support clients | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
that took the British Army to court on what turned out to be deliberate | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
and miscalculated lies, holy and entirely without merit, where the | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
accusations against the army. Should you return that? What happened was | :21:55. | :22:05. | |
that Lee Day seconded people to my office because when your shadow | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
Attorney General you don't have any resources at all. You didn't get | :22:09. | :22:19. | |
?14,500 in donations? No, so I got very good bright lawyers and I have | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
returned all of them and they were very good and they helped us be a | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
good opposition. So there is no money to return? There is no money | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
to return and it was a pleasure to have them in my office, they were | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
very helpful to the Labour Party and interned to the country. We were | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
summarising legislation, helping with clauses, giving advice to the | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
leaders' office. Unfortunately the Government will now even cut the | :22:49. | :22:59. | |
money. Will you come back when your review is complete? Any time. We | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
will hold you to that. Now to the European Union | :23:04. | :23:05. | |
and Britain's membership of it. George Osborne appeared | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
quietly confident this week about the Government's chances | :23:09. | :23:09. | |
of impressing voters with the deal it gets from Brussels, | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
and even the European President, Jean-Claude Junker, appeared more | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
upbeat about the prospects Not good news for | :23:15. | :23:16. | |
those who want out? But they'll be buoyed by one poll | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
this morning that puts the "out" This morning there's news of another | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
group on the pro-EU campaign trail. The question may be fairly simple | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
but there are rather a lot of different campaigns | :23:28. | :23:37. | |
trying to bend our ears. On the side of those | :23:38. | :23:39. | |
who want us out of the EU, there's the Vote Leave campaign | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
headed by Dominic Cummings and Matthew Elliott, | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
who ran the successful They're also linked | :23:49. | :23:49. | |
to Business For Britain, which has the support of a number | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
of leading business figures, and to the groups Labour Leave | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
and Conservatives For Britain, Also campaigning for Brexit | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
is Leave.EU, which has links to Ukip and is funded by the Ukip donor | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
Arron Banks. They're vying with the Vote Leave | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
campaign to be the officially And to top it all, there is now Go, | :24:11. | :24:12. | |
a new grass-roots group made up of MPs including Kate Hoey | :24:13. | :24:26. | |
and David Davis which is designed to coordinate campaigning | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
on the ground. On the other side, the main group | :24:30. | :24:30. | |
is the Britain Stronger In Europe, headed by the former Marks | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
Spencer's boss Sir Stuart Rose. Then there's Business | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
For New Europe, led by Roland Rudd, Labour Yes, led by Alan Johnson, | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
and now there's a new group set up by the Tory MP Nick Herbert, | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
called Conservatives Even though some of the members | :24:43. | :24:44. | |
are Eurosceptics, they say they will support David Cameron's | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
renegotiation and will vote to remain inside the EU | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
if he's successful. Expect a few leaflets | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
through your door in the next And with us now is the Ukip | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
leader, Nigel Farage. With even staunch Eurosceptic MPs | :25:01. | :25:18. | |
like Nick Herbert campaigning to stay in, don't you worry the tide of | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
opinion is moving away from you and tour was David Cameron? I would | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
never regard Nick Herbert as a staunch Eurosceptic. He campaigned | :25:29. | :25:37. | |
to keep the pound, he was paid to do it. He has never once advocated | :25:38. | :25:47. | |
Britain should leave the EU so he is doing a job bolstering the Prime | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Minister. There was lots of speculation, will Boris Johnson back | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
the outcome pain? What do you think? I don't know. Not Michael Gove, we | :25:57. | :26:05. | |
know now. I suspect lots of senior politicians will put their careers | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
before their conscience and back the Prime Minister. I am beginning to | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
see this referendum as the people versus the politicians, it might not | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
matter. Except your own side continues to be riven by | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
factionalism. We have vote to leave, Leave.EU, and they seem to be | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
spending more time attacking each other than the common enemy. You | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
have these groups vying to be the official bumbler group. I've been | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
trying to support both of the organisations, though I have to say | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
when I listen to Dominic Cummings on Friday... Who is on Vote Leave I | :26:44. | :26:52. | |
believe. Yes, and suddenly they are talking about a two referendum | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
strategy which I don't like the look of one little bit. Why not? The | :26:57. | :27:05. | |
argue was, we can vote to come out and then Europe will panic and make | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
us an offer which will be effectively associated membership | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
and we could vote on that. We effectively have that now, we had | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
that since the euro was created. Dan Harmon has criticised every | :27:21. | :27:22. | |
government that has lost a referendum. After the interview I | :27:23. | :27:32. | |
saw the other day I wasn't sure. There is now a third group called | :27:33. | :27:40. | |
Go. It does lend itself to jokes about the Judaean people's struggle. | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
The point about Go is that it is there to break the deadlock, and | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
next Saturday there will be Conservatives, Labour, Ukip and DUP | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
sharing a public platform. There's a big auditorium with 2000 people | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
coming and we will start the ground campaign in earnest. Should Vote | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
Leave and Leave.EU amalgamate? Of course. Leave.EU are brilliant at | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
mass-marketing. Vote Leave are Westminster -based group of people | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
with some fantastic links to the business community, some great | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
academic back-up. They would be complimentary, not contradictory. | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
Meanwhile, as you still struggle to get a united front, if I can put it | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
like that, perhaps the United front of the Judaean people's struggle... | :28:32. | :28:39. | |
I would suggest from the better together project, which proved so | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
effective in the Scottish referendum, shouldn't you fear | :28:48. | :29:05. | |
Project Fear? Even Project Fear has a problem because a Scottish | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
minister said all of the big businesses would leave Britain, but | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
we would maintain our manufacturing bases. Even though if we stay in | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
there will be some uncertainty as the euro zone becomes more united | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
and we are likely to be part of that, so you cannot be sure of the | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
future, no one on your side can tell us if we come out what will our | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
status beach? What will our relationship be? Because you have | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
lots of differences. We have a whole range of options. There are | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
countries all over the world with different relationships, the Swiss | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
have bilateral relationships the Norwegians have a relationship with | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
the economic area. We are the biggest trading partner the has in | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
the world, trading at a vast trading deficit. We want a British deal | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
based on trade, cooperation and nothing more. | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
There is still the uncertainty as to whether you can deliver. Every | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
German car manufacturer, every producer, will insist we do that | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
deal as quickly as possible. You hold that but it is uncertain. Under | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
the terms of the treaties, on day one nothing would change, we would | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
have access to markets during the time we renegotiate the British | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
deal. Do you feel the ground moving on to you as the forces of the | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
British state, Alex Salmond felt the same with the Scottish referendum, | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
it is a formidable force and you are up against it? In terms of our | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
political class, yes, I think the chances of many people currently in | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
senior positions in politics, perhaps they diminish, inevitably, | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
but you cannot take away from ordinary folk scene such as Cologne | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
and saying to themselves, in three years, all of these people will have | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
EU passports and be able to come to Britain. This campaign will be the | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
people against the politicians and the more the politicians clubbed | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
together, perhaps more the people will choose to vote against them. In | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
any possibility of a relationship with the EU out, will almost | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
certainly involve continued free movement and these people may well | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
still be able to come to this country under any deal you reach? We | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
have free trade deals all over the world that don't involve the free | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
movement of people, it is only in Europe we have the free -- pretence | :31:41. | :31:48. | |
that we have to have free movement of people. I want to control our | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
borders and have an Australian style points system where we can judge | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
whether people will make a positive contribution to society and I cannot | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
do that as a member of the EU. You have not had the best of times, | :32:02. | :32:09. | |
since the election. It culminated in what you designated a car breakdown | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
as an assassination attempt. Has that undermined, as the most famous | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
person on the outcome paying, has it undermined your credibility? I do | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
not think it does. To say we have had a tough time, it is interesting, | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
Ukip has been written off by every commentator in Fleet Street but the | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
latest poll had us at 17%. The most important issue, immigration, we are | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
the most trusted party on 29% and we go into this year with the | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
expectation of winning seats in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
and playing a big role in this referendum. | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
Let's talk now to former Conservative Chancellor, | :32:58. | :32:58. | |
Are you in any doubt the Prime Minister is going to be the | :32:59. | :33:10. | |
enthusiastic leader of the campaign to remain in the EU? I think you | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
will, because all the news, although it is not really news, a lot of it | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
is rumoured, is he will come back with a reasonable deal. He has | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
already got the things he first talked about in the bag when he | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
first announced he was going to have a referendum and seek reforms. He | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
has added one or two more. Nobody knows the final deal but they are | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
close to getting one and the debate is getting more serious and I think | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
David will advocate staying in. He will put it, a reformed European | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
union. Given this was the predictable outcome, is the | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
referendum process, promoted by David Cameron, worth the candle? We | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
shall see. You can see now, is it or not? Wait for the outcome, which | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
will determine the effect of the referendum on British politics and | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
the economy. All politicians of my generation did not think a | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
referendum was a good way to run a modern, sophisticated country. You | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
wish she had not done it? I do not think anybody thinks... I was in | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
favour of calling a referendum. Margaret Thatcher denounced | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
referendums in stronger terms than I have and they are a gamble and I do | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
not think the Scottish one has resolved the Scottish independence | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
issue. Let me come on to Scotland. It seems clear that the in campaign | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
will draw heavily on the better together project. We have been | :34:49. | :35:03. | |
briefed on fear of Russian aggression. Who will be happy if | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
they leave? President Putin will be happy. It will put the positive case | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
of Britain in Europe? I shall try to put the positive case, I hope Damian | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
Greene will put the positive case. We are in the EU because we think it | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
strengthens our voice in the modern world and it is good for the economy | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
and we think that this is the right place, in what is a complicated | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
world, with nations interdependent. We will be a modern and more modern | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
and more successful if we are in. The campaign exaggerates things. | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
Nigel Farage is a parody of a right-wing nationalists. People are | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
inclined to say there will be calamity if we stay in or calamity | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
if we leave. They will be huge uncertainty if we leave. I believe | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
that my children and grandchildren will discover that we would be | :36:02. | :36:09. | |
losing political influence. We know you want to stay in. If we vote to | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
remain, should membership of the euro come back onto the agenda? I do | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
not think it will in my lifetime. The British have decided not to join | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
the euro. The euro has to be reformed. The eurozone still has not | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
sorted out its crisis. Should it come back onto the British agenda? I | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
am not going to forecast the future when we are fighting this | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
referendum. I was asking for an opinion. I believe that if you have | :36:41. | :36:47. | |
the single market, not a trade deal, a single market, usually you have a | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
single means of exchange, but they made a mess of the euro and did not | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
run it properly. I would not join at the moment. You don't rule it out? | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
Maybe one day the next generation of politicians find we do want to have | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
the same currency, but I cannot tell. You are pro-European, you know | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
its failings. You can be critical of it. Do you worry, the future, even | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
if we stay in, the future of the EU will be on what takes place inside | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
the eurozone and we will be on the periphery, increasingly a country | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
club member, does it worry you? It worried me when we started. With | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
great respect you are talking about one of the most serious issues, | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
there was an issue that needed to be addressed. We are almost there, what | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
we did not want is the decision of the British and some others, who | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
will not join in the foreseeable future, not to join the single | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
currency, that it would make a second-class citizens and the | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
eurozone group should not decide things that adversely affected us. | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
We negotiated that before the referendum came up. I think George | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
is almost there. My understanding is, but I am not directly involved. | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
I think that is the most important point and it will not feature in | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
this campaign. Deregulation, and other important things, reforms even | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
a pro-European like me wanted. Thank you for your short interview and we | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
will come back to you as the debate and referendum progresses. | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :38:32. | :38:33. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :38:34. | :38:35. | |
After two the main English exam board announced they will no longer | :38:36. | :39:32. | |
offer GCSE courses here in Northern Ireland. He claims what he called | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
the folly of the ministers in flexibility could put schools and | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
pupils at a disadvantage. The Education Minister John O'Dowd is | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
with me now. Thank you for joining us. You decided not to change the | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
grading system back in November. And now two of the biggest exam boards | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
are pulling out. You were once that would happen. Head teachers are not | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
heavy. Some of the unions are not happy. | :40:00. | :40:01. | |
It looks like you got this wrong. Some headteachers were not happy. | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
Some teachers are not happy. There are a mixed views around the trade | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
unions. It is worth pointing out what is known as the English exams | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
body is irrelevant. In this regard. They are following changes made in | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
the Department for Education, England, to change their curriculum | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
in England to upgrade or change their examination system in England | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
so English are following those changes, changes to suit the English | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
education system. I consulted on this matter. I believe that the | :40:32. | :40:42. | |
changes are staying. No one will be disadvantaged as a result of staying | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
with the system we currently have. Except that it makes it more | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
difficult for our schoolchildren to transfer those grades across to the | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
UK system. It is a confusing system because we are staying as we are and | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
it is changing across the water. There was no evidence to support | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
that. What is the UK system? Scotland has its own examination is | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
body so therefore Scottish tutors that Scottish exams. England now | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
sits a different type of GCSE but GCSEs all the same. Wales have | :41:15. | :41:22. | |
followed staying with a start. So what is the UK system? We're dealing | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
now with changes that a devolved level. I can assure your viewers | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
that I've made changes only after careful consideration and | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
consultation and at each have ensure that our examinations will remain | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
and portable. The concern that some people have is | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
that the Northern Ireland exams body will now have a monopoly in the | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
system currently providing 75% of GCSEs but the point is that 25% are | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
provided by these other bodies. There will be a monopoly. If it | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
doesn't do a particular course then it is going to be virtually | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
impossible for schools to teach that in future. | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
I can assure schools that we will ensure that whatever courses are not | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
available currently, are to the Welsh examination body. We will | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
allow a period of transition for exams were there is no equivalent | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
currently on our curriculum and I will be setting out advice and | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
information to schools in the week ahead to ensure they have full | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
information and will be a translation period for a small | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
number of exams which currently we do not provide. | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
It is confusing. We will have another bet the system sitting side | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
by side with a numerical system. I have been dealing with schools and | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
principles and boards are governments of the last five years | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
and they are not as easily confuse some of the media may suggest they | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
are. Your point for staying with this | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
system is to keep it simple because you do not want to confuse people by | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
bringing in a numerical system. Now you are telling you that everyone is | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
big enough and able enough to understand what could be at a | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
confusing system. I'm talking about a very small | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
minority of subjects, perhaps in terms of some of the minority | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
languages. There was a very small range of subjects which may not be | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
provided immediately by us. It is going to be a bureaucratic | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
nightmare to sort this one out. It will not. It is not expensive. It is | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
not a bureaucratic nightmare. Exam boards including those referred to | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
as English exam boards over the next three years were changing the | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
specifications of their exams. We're changing the content of exams. | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
Schools were going through a period of change of the next three years | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
regardless of my decision. Examination bodies on a regular | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
basis will change content to ensure their exams are up to date and | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
robust. So programmes of change such as this, schools have went through | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
in the past. Peter where, who chairs the education committee, has called | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
on you to show common sense and make the necessary changes to help rescue | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
the situation. Why are you impervious to those | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
things that come from some of your political opponents and others? | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
Colourful language news we backed up. If Peter has evidence as to why | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
we should simply follow what is happening in the Department for | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
Education in England then he needs to produce it. I am concerned that | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
some are suggesting simply follow the changes in the Department for | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
Education in England because that is the way it has always happen. | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
You had you don't think the Department for England is thought | :44:33. | :44:34. | |
this through? They can their system if they | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
choose. I made changes and stayed with certain aspects of GCSEs in our | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
own system after cable consideration, after consultation | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
and ensuring that are exam system is robust and portable. Our GCSEs are | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
as worthwhile as any other part of England or Wales. | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
Are you in fact privately quite relaxed that saying the relaxing the | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
departure of the Bush boards from the stage? | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
No. The geographical location of what is known as the English wadding | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
borrowed these is immaterial. They could be located anywhere, the fact | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
of the matter is that for commercial reasons, they have decided to leave | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
our system because it no longer commercially suits them. That is | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
regrettable but it is not a disaster. They have not got us on | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
the hop and plans are in place. We will leave it there. | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
Thank you very much for joining us. Let's take a look at the political | :45:29. | :45:38. | |
week in 60 seconds. It was musical ministerial chairs at | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
Stormont this week as Peter Robinson stepped aside. | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
I hear Barry resigned the office of First Minister. | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
To make way for Arlene Foster who chaired an executive meeting with | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
ministers anxious to find solutions to the flooding problems. | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
I suggest that we should extend the hardship payments to nondomestic | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
properties. Martin McGuinness played the name | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
game. And is wondering what is coming | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
next. The First Minister says people have other concerns. | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
I don't think anybody is focused on what my relationship is with Martin | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
McGuinness. I think of August on what I'm doing people for Northern | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
Ireland. Join with me in helping that history | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
reflects that was the peak of the DUP's electoral successes. | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
The speaker had the last word. Wishful thinking. | :46:33. | :46:44. | |
Peter Robinson going out on a big laugh there. Let's hear the thoughts | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
of my guests, Patricia MacBride and Alex Kane. Let's talk about Arlene | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
Foster. She's had almost one week on the job of First Minister. Early | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
days obviously but how would you rate her performance so far? | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
It is worth bearing in mind she is entirely different to Ian Paisley | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
and Peter Robinson. I think that will help the DUP and make it easier | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
on the election campaign against the Ulster Unionists. But how big | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
problem remains the same problem that Paisley and Robinson had. It is | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
turning the better let -- turning the rhetoric into hard reality. They | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
failed to do that. Her opening speech and McGuinness's response to | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
that was we will work together if the people want us to work together. | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
We are but one to tetchy moment since then. That is what everyone is | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
now looking for. Can she make the difference that Robinson and Paisley | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
could not? It is interesting because never you | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
speak to her, she wants to play down the importance of that relationship | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
with Martin McGuinness at her success as First Minister will have | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
an off a lot to do with the success of that relationship. | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
That is a fact. The success of the relationship between the two parties | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
in terms of managing Government needs to be continued but the | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
dynamic of the relationship will change. In her interviews this week | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
she mentioned on a number of occasions the fact that she has | :48:04. | :48:12. | |
infinite patience and those traits that she will need. The other thing | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
about an Irish mother, as patient as she may be, she will also be fierce | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
when her patience is tried so it will be interesting to see who or | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
what drives her patience and how she reacts to it. | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
Do you think she can pick our way through the difficult territory that | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
is the decade I think it is a slightly stupid | :48:37. | :48:44. | |
response. The willingness to say she will talk about it. She has to put | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
good election results. If she does not nothing else matters. | :48:51. | :48:52. | |
We will talk to you later. Thanks very much indeed. | :48:53. | :48:59. | |
It is meant to be a flagship project to tackle unemployment. Now there is | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
confusion this week over which department is going to take charge | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
of it. You are both welcome to the programme. This programme is a | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
programme for Government commitment and you were a special adviser at | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
the time it was set up. You are one of its biggest champions. What has | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
gone wrong? I think there has been a lot of | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
negativity and criticism will stop I don't know if that is actually fair. | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
There is a lot of good news to be told about the social investment | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
fund programme. It has taken longer. The first thing to be clear about is | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
that it has taken longer than what politicians would have hoped for and | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
the First Minister would have hoped for but there is a good news story | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
in there. Whenever we were developing the fund we looked to | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
other countries for the types of programmes that can bring about | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
social change and one of the big things coming across was around | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
using programmes that were entirely community led and for the first time | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
it has not been done in Scotland or Ireland or England, Northern Ireland | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
is leading the way with this innovative programme which is | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
entirely community led. The problems identified with the community and | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
solutions are identified by the community. | :50:16. | :50:17. | |
It is fine in theory but the reality is very different. This is an ?80 | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
million bun. It is all supposed to have been spent by now but you have | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
spent only 4 million. By the end of March you will spend 7 million so in | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
five years you will have spent less than 10% of what you should have | :50:32. | :50:33. | |
spent. That headline doesn't reveal the | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
true picture. ?60 million has been committed. What we need to | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
understand dot-mac it is a contractual commitment. At least | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
have the programme, runs over two to three years so at least have the | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
programme is funded. In my own constituency, employability south, | :50:54. | :50:55. | |
that is not a one-year programme. We don't want all that money spent | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
Ayrshire so it is a three-year programme. But that money is cool | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
fractionally committed. That is what community organisations want and | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
people on the ground want. It should've been spent on three | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
years up to now. It should not be starting to be spent at this point. | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
That is the whole thing. We talked to community workers on the ground | :51:16. | :51:17. | |
and they are pretty disenchanted with the whole system and feel like | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
they have been forced through hoops time and time again and the money is | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
in filtering through to them. It is an ambitious project and I | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
worked week on week talking to community organisations and talking | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
to people on the ground and I understand their frustration. | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
Politicians are being frustrated about the length of time it takes | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
but unfortunately there are a number of mechanisms that we need to go | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
through. There were 69 projects that came forward in terms of social | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
investment fund, and of those the writ huge clusters. One single | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
project have 13 different capital elements to that. I know you | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
yourself in terms of your charitable work have worked on some of those | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
big introduction cabinet projects and it takes a lot of time put up | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
how to go through design briefs, procurement, economists, it is very | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
challenging. But what I do know is it will be worth it at the end. What | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
communities will see is that those projects have fidelity to the | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
original concept that they came up with several years ago but they will | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
see that working and because of those safeguards, cause of the work | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
we are in and the good design of those projects I know they will | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
bring about tangible benefits on the ground reached outcomes we | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
originally wanted. Chris, do you accept that is the | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
case? OK, delivery has been badly. It actually broadly speaking, the | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
right things are being done and they are going to benefit the correct | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
people on the ground? I think the aims of tackling social | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
deprivation and dereliction in the community are reasonable aims. The | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
administration of the fund has been shambolic. The targets dot-mac the | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
pro-government targets was to spend ?80 million between 2011 and 2015. | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
And they made 2015 and ?1 million had been spent. That raises serious | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
questions at a time when families, businesses, public services, are | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
under real pressure. Why that money was not properly utilise other time | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
when the DUP and Sinn Fein have constantly talked about helping the | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
most abominable. Peter Robinson said the really is the main target broke | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
OFMDFM. That raises real questions as to why that has not been | :53:21. | :53:22. | |
achieved. Do you see this as nothing much more | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
than ?80 million experiment? I think it raises serious questions. | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
There have been Gateway reviews that have not been published so it not be | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
to see the full details of what went wrong in order to reflect on that. | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
There been some projects delivered but there have been people waiting | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
to deliver education programmes, childcare programmes, advice | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
centres, all of whom could use that money extremely effectively but they | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
have not had access to it. It is an interesting point that | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
Chris raises, Emma. We spoke to some of those groups that had been | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
bidding for this money over the last few years and they raised for those | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
issues like complaints from funding decisions being influenced by | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
paramilitaries, which they have grave concerns about. Driscoll horse | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
trading. Decisions made based on Sinn Fein and the DUP being kept | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
happy rather than need on the ground. Mystification as to why | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
money wasn't given to the DST when it has an neighbourhood renewal | :54:23. | :54:24. | |
strategy that could deliver this type of project. Judge that there's | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
a fair issue is a fair issues for groups and individuals to raise? | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
Absolutely no truth to the allegations around horse trading or | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
any kind of malignant influence. None at all. And what I would say | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
that we have a really good team of people working on this post just | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
this week we have at the chair of the OFMDFM clinging around very | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
insulting terms. Very good officials and working very hard. They're | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
working with the community. The easy route would have been to fire this | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
into an existing scheme but what we have done dot-mac would we have | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
achieved anything? If we're going to achieve better outcomes need to do | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
things differently. Even if it takes longer it is worth it. Better to | :55:10. | :55:11. | |
have the right project. How's that the case that originally | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
responsibilities were going to be transferred to the project of social | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
response Bertie there was announced by a senior official in your | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
department it was not happening any more? Why such a U-turn on that | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
issue? That comes down to one of the many | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
differences. This is a cross departmental skin. It does not fit | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
into the neat box of one department and that is why OFMDFM was behind it | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
in the first place. It deals with unity services, Chard and education, | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
these are not think that that within one department. This is a very much | :55:50. | :55:58. | |
a central scheme. It is not just in OFMDFM project and I believe it will | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
bring about changes to many more communities will stop what you make | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
but that policy change? My understanding was that the | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
delivery of social investment fund was supposed to be transferred to | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
the new Department of communities, the Department for social relevant | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
with experience in the delivery of the Stauber projects, there are | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
other programmes that have delivered in ways that the social investment | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
fund has not. The Department for employment has delivered 1300 new | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
university places, 40,000 young people into employment, and 4000 | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
jobs to the assured skills programme as well. So there are other | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
departments using funds effectively to deliver positive outcomes for | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
people in Northern Ireland. The record on their social investment | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
fund is to be scrutinised. What do you say about what needs to | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
be done so that your confidence can the restored in the confidence of | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
community groups? I know you are involved in one group in particular | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
that is actually bidding for some of this funding so maybe you have a | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
feel of what it's like on the ground and stop what these redundant store | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
confidence? We need to see progress as soon as | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
possible in terms of clear communication to the community | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
groups who are involved in bidding for the fans, and we need to see | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
fund released to people on the ground start using them as | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
effectively as possible. Can that happen? It is happening. | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
Almost 700 people employed through our schemes and since I became | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
junior minister I have announced over ?16 million projects going out. | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
Delivery is ramping up and will be out there on the ground and it is | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
already happening within certain constituencies. I am absolutely | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
confident that in the course of the next few months all of the funding | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
will be committed. Many tens of thousands of people are going to | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
benefit from the scheme and whenever people setback they will say, this | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
was a good idea. The OFMDFM did something different and it was the | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
right thing to do because it is actually change things on the | :57:56. | :57:56. | |
ground. The cottages between it has been a | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
disaster and you clearly don't think there's been a disaster. Therefore | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
the only conclusion I can reach is that your role over optimistic about | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
what you could deliver within the timescale. Do you accept that as a | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
fair criticism? If the scheme are still bidding you can deliver the | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
money quickly to the people are needed you were hopelessly naive | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
about the time it was going to take you to do that. | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
We were overambitious by the done thing that is a bad thing. It will | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
happen, it is happening and I do think it will bring about benefits. | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
I think unfortunately it has clouded the success is within the scheme and | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
innovation within this team but think that these projects are out of | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
the ground people have the time to reflect and saved was a good thing. | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
It is different on what to do it again and I believe other | :58:41. | :58:42. | |
jurisdictions across the UK others will look to this to say, there are | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
some very good principles and here. Wider benefits. | :58:48. | :58:56. | |
Until all of the money is delivered there is a serious credibility issue | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
for the fund and for someone like yourself who has invested so much of | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
your personal time and effort in it. Part of that is the likes of myself | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
going out there and saying to people what this fund is about. People who | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
will be operating the skin will be saying to others about the success | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
of that but the best thing about this will be the people who benefit | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
from it and those people will notice a good thing and those people will | :59:18. | :59:19. | |
talk about is and monster schemes get up and running on the ground and | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
a lot of them are doing that. More will do that this year. All of those | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
tens of thousands of people will be selling this project saying it is as | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
excess and using it as an example moving forward. | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
We need to leave it there. We will continue to keep a close eye in the | :59:38. | :59:42. | |
months ahead. Let's take a final word with Patricia and Alex. Let's | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
talk about the social investment fund. There may have been a few | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
bumps on the road effectively is what MSN. At the end the day the | :59:51. | :59:52. | |
money will be delivered to the people who need it most. | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
The social investment fund was the peace dividend and the dividend | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
double not paid. This was announced in 2010 and a two to 2013 until we | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
had any idea about what schemes would be funded. There was huge | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
delay and that was the result of deciding how we going to fund | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
projects in Unionist areas or Nationalist areas that are most | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
deprived. There is no doubt that there was political disagreement on | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
the types of projects that were going to be funded and the knock-on | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
effect in community and voluntary sector organisations who have bid | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
for the standard was a loss of expertise. Projects tell by the | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
wayside because they were dependent on match funding. And when the | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
social investment did not come through then the other match funding | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
was withdrawn. Abel moved onto other roles. The key thing now is, if the | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
money is going to be committed in the next number of months as Emma | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
has said that it will be, that it is committed in such a way that the | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
expertise is not lost. That those projects can continue to deliver for | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
the benefit of the community but fundamentally, in the evaluation, | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
there needs to be some looks at where it has all gone wrong. | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
Alex, what is your investment and opinion on the success of the | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
scheme? Patricia is right. I've talked to | :01:08. | :01:15. | |
books on -- groups on both side. The funding has not be made available | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
and are no Emma says it is not a matter of horse trading but it is | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
hard to avoid the conclusion that somewhere between the DUP and Shin | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
Bender is disagreement about whether is money should go and I think they | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
need dot-mac we're talking a matter of weeks before an election when it | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
should be actually trumpeting the success of this money, they're still | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
saying, we're not quite sure when. Interesting discussion today. Thank | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
you very much indeed. That is it from all | :01:40. | :06:35. | |
Donald Trump is net damaging for the Scottish economy, but that is not | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
why I am saying he should be considered on the same basis as | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
everybody else. We have banned American shock jocks and MPs, not | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
necessarily on terrorism, Donald Trump is not on any of these things, | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
but making statements, in the words of the formulation, are not | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
conducive to the public interest. What did you get wrong, your | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
assessment of Donald Trump, or the size of an independent Scotland's | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
oil revenue? Eight years ago I would have found it difficult to know that | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
Donald Trump was going to run for president of the US. Most people | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
would have found that an incredible proposition. I was not to know he | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
would make a range of statements that are deeply offensive and deeply | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
not acceptable whether they apply to Mexicans all Muslims. Nor did I | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
anticipate he would only go forward with a 10th of the investment | :07:38. | :07:45. | |
promised. It is a yes or no, which? I did not anticipate any of these | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
things, Andrew. Thanks for joining us. You have won the prize for the | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
best ever backdrop to an interview down the line I have done. Alex | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
Salmond, thank you for joining us. Back to Europe, we are told I think | :08:01. | :08:11. | |
the Sunday Times and other papers that the Prime Minister is not going | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
to just get what he wants, he is going to pull rabbits out of a hat | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
and get more than we expect. We spent 2015 playing down | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
expectations. I remember number 10 enjoying it in November and December | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
when the Conservative leaning press was talking down the renegotiation | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
Cameron would achieve, they wanted to go into February with Tory | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
backbenchers and voters and members expecting really quite a paltry deal | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
from Brussels and Berlin. The rabbits he pulls out of his hat do | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
not have to be big, they can be medium-sized. They can still clear | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
the low hurdle that has been set for him. He has raised the bar by | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
talking about rabbits. So far this has gone exactly as I and many | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
others predicted. Cameron was always going to orchestrate it so it | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
sounded like it would be difficult and then he managed to get | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
concessions and then he gets something fantastic at the last | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
crucial moment! I think that leave, out campaign, the various campaigns, | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
have a challenge. Not to allow Tisch boaters to fall for these ruses and | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
there should be real scrutiny of what Cameron comes back with. -- | :09:29. | :09:43. | |
allow voters. If you are the Prime Minister on the European project, | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
which I expect privately he wishes he did not kick off in the first | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
those, it looks good, it looks like he will get a deal. The potential | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
major deserters, we are told Michael Gove will stay, Nick Herbert forms a | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
Eurosceptic group to stay inside, and we see no sign of Boris Johnson, | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
Theresa May leading the out camp. If they do not do it, that is job done | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
for the Prime Minister. Yes, it is dangerous to predict, but the stars | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
seem to be coming together in a favourable way. I picked this up on | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
Thursday last week, essentially the Prime Minister would get something | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
on welfare that would be better on the four-year ban on in work | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
benefits. You could say pressure on public services is too great and we | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
need to limit migration. What is interesting is that potentially | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
means the four girls he wants, he could do better than that. It is | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
interesting because it now appears according to an opinion poll in the | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
Times newspaper, voters have clocked onto the negotiations and believed | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
they are for real and believe if the Prime Minister gets a good package, | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
there is a greater chance they will vote to stay in. All the detriment | :11:07. | :11:16. | |
-- diplomats who said he could not do this, he appears to have proved | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
them wrong. If it is going well for the Prime Minister, there are | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
opinion polls showing a majority to come out, today. I have learned my | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
lesson from the general election, which is not to believe polls and so | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
I do not think they are correct. They were right on the Scottish | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
referendum. You think the campaign is starting from behind? I do and I | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
think there is a danger as Nigel Farage touched upon, that voters | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
will think it is a giant stitch up if the political establishment, the | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
big figures we have talked about, are on one side, it does not look | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
like a balanced debate and it may backfire. Tomorrow, the equity | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
markets have had their worst start to the year since the crash. All | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
eyes will be on London and New York tomorrow. Should the government | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
prepare for a potential financial crisis? It is politically preparing | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
because George Osborne gave a speech ten days ago that was more negative | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
about the economic picture than the Autumn Statement in November. That I | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
think is laying the political ground if not for recession or crisis, then | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
slower growth than we were expecting. It looks worrying, the | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
Dow was down almost 500 points at one stage. That would be very bad | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
for George Osborne but there is an argument people will cling to him as | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
a future leader if times are tough. Some people saw that speech as the | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
beginning of Project Fear on the European referendum. Maybe he | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
believed it and he was telling us the warning lights were flashing. We | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
will see if there is a flight to British bonds. Keep your eye on the | :13:11. | :13:11. | |
markets tomorrow. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
at midday over on BBC Two, and I'll be back here, | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
same time, same place, Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:28. | :13:31. |